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Rewriting the Mother Code at 43 · The Uplifters

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1:08
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Uplifters podcast.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: Today,
1:10
SPEAKER_01: I have the absolute delight of talking to Ruthie Ackerman,
1:15
SPEAKER_01: an award-winning journalist whose writing has appeared in Vogue,
1:18
SPEAKER_01: Glamour,
1:19
SPEAKER_01: O Magazine,
1:19
SPEAKER_01: The New York Times,
1:21
SPEAKER_01: The Atlantic,
1:22
SPEAKER_01: and so many others.
1:23
SPEAKER_01: She's the founder of the Ignite Writers Collective.
1:26
and a book coach who's dedicated to helping writers tell their
1:30
most authentic
1:31
SPEAKER_01: stories,
1:31
SPEAKER_01: a role she is uniquely qualified for as the author of her memoir,
1:37
SPEAKER_01: The Mother Code,
1:38
which details with extraordinary authenticity and honesty and
1:44
self-awareness her
1:46
SPEAKER_01: journey to motherhood.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: Unlike so many of the women in our Late Bloomer series,
1:50
she had a big dream for her life that didn't play out in the
1:54
timeline she expected.
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I was so moved,
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Ruthie,
1:58
by your book,
1:59
and I'm so excited to spend this time with you.
2:02
SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to be here.
2:04
SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to dive in.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: Your story's incredible.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: It needed to be told.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: It's so important.
2:10
SPEAKER_01: I learned so much from it.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: I felt so much from it.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: And I kept having these moments of like,
2:18
SPEAKER_01: how is anybody this good a writer?
2:19
SPEAKER_01: And I love that feeling of just like awe in a person's gifts.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: And at the same time,
2:27
SPEAKER_01: I was like,
2:27
SPEAKER_01: how is anybody this self-aware and this willing to be this honest?
2:32
And so just know that I appreciated your work on so many levels
2:38
and I'm so grateful
2:40
that it's out in the world and that I got to enjoy it and enjoy
2:43
is a weird word for
2:44
SPEAKER_01: it,
2:44
SPEAKER_01: but I did.
2:45
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: I have to say as a writer,
2:50
SPEAKER_02: first of all,
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SPEAKER_02: I mean,
2:51
SPEAKER_02: as a creative person,
2:52
SPEAKER_02: as a person in the world,
2:53
SPEAKER_02: so much of what we do,
2:55
SPEAKER_02: we don't know it's ever going to be worthy of our time.
3:00
SPEAKER_02: Like being, we go to work or we do whatever we do every day.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, is anyone going to care?
3:07
SPEAKER_02: Is this ever going to make a difference?
3:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
3:09
And then even once the thing is in the world,
3:14
the podcast,
3:14
the book,
3:15
the whatever...
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SPEAKER_02: the baby.
3:19
SPEAKER_02: It's like, was this the right thing?
3:22
SPEAKER_02: Was this the best it could be?
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SPEAKER_02: Does anyone care still?
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So all this is to say that it means so much when others say,
3:36
what you did was worthwhile.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: It was worthwhile.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: And actually,
3:41
I think that was one of the themes that really moved me and
3:47
made me feel so seen
3:48
SPEAKER_01: and normalized with this question you ask yourself in the book of,
3:53
SPEAKER_01: well,
3:53
SPEAKER_01: if I delayed pregnancy and creating my version of a family for my work,
4:02
SPEAKER_01: if it doesn't have impact,
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SPEAKER_01: did I make the wrong choice?
4:07
SPEAKER_01: And I just, I was like, oh shit.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: I think that's such a big question.
4:10
SPEAKER_01: I want to hear your thoughts on it.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: But first for folks who haven't read the book yet, I gave it like
4:17
the worst description ever because it is so much more than your
4:20
journey to motherhood.
4:21
SPEAKER_01: And yet that's really what it is, right?
4:23
SPEAKER_01: Because it was like, it is this profound journey to motherhood.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: How do you describe what the book is?
4:30
SPEAKER_02: It depends on what day it is, how I describe it.
4:34
The initial question that I started with as I was writing the
4:38
book was,
4:39
should I have a child?
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SPEAKER_02: which is a pretty big question.
4:43
SPEAKER_02: And there were a lot of pieces that sort of played into that question.
4:48
SPEAKER_02: One is the first line of the book,
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SPEAKER_02: I come from a long line of women who abandon their children,
4:53
SPEAKER_02: or at least that's what I've been told.
4:55
SPEAKER_02: And so I started with that question of,
5:01
SPEAKER_02: given where I came from,
5:03
SPEAKER_02: would it make sense,
5:04
SPEAKER_02: given what I've inherited,
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SPEAKER_02: would it make sense for me to potentially pass that on to another human?
5:11
SPEAKER_02: And how do you go about answering that question?
5:14
SPEAKER_02: I'm a journalist.
5:15
So I went about answering that question as a sort of quest
5:19
where I dug through all
5:23
SPEAKER_02: the documents I could find about my great grandmother,
5:26
SPEAKER_02: my grandmother and my mother.
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SPEAKER_02: So that included medical records,
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SPEAKER_02: census records,
5:31
SPEAKER_02: divorce and marriage records,
5:33
talk to family members to try to figure out like what was this
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generational trauma?
5:41
SPEAKER_02: that I had experienced and was immersed in?
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SPEAKER_02: And would I be able to escape it?
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SPEAKER_02: And I didn't know what the answer was going to be.
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I always say that for those of you listening who might want to
5:54
write books,
5:55
the question that is going to be at the center of your writing
5:58
needs to be a
5:59
SPEAKER_02: question that you don't know the answer to.
6:01
SPEAKER_02: Because if you already know the answer, that's pretty boring.
6:05
SPEAKER_02: That's not going to keep you excited.
6:07
SPEAKER_02: You're just regurgitating a story.
6:10
SPEAKER_02: Whereas I really wanted to know, could I escape my family trauma?
6:13
SPEAKER_02: And that became the beating heart of at least the first half of the book.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
6:21
SPEAKER_01: as you ask those questions,
6:24
you were also asking very specific questions about your
6:30
readiness to be a mother,
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SPEAKER_01: the kind of mother you want to be,
6:34
SPEAKER_01: how you become a mother.
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SPEAKER_01: And that ends up being sort of the central question once you've decided,
6:40
SPEAKER_01: yes,
6:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to do this.
6:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_02: because like all of us,
6:45
SPEAKER_02: when you believe a narrative about your life,
6:49
SPEAKER_02: when I believe this narrative about my life,
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that there was some sort of flaw in my genetic code that was
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going to make me
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SPEAKER_02: repeat the same things.
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SPEAKER_02: Repeat.
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SPEAKER_02: I was trying not to repeat the same mistakes.
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SPEAKER_02: In the unraveling of that family narrative,
7:08
I married a man who didn't want children because that made
7:11
sense at the time,
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SPEAKER_02: or I thought it did.
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SPEAKER_02: Spoiler alert, we don't stay married.
7:16
But the thing that I want to say to your listeners is that when
7:21
we have these
7:22
SPEAKER_02: narratives about our lives,
7:24
SPEAKER_02: we end up making choices based on those narratives that
7:28
And when we figure out that those narratives may not be true or
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maybe half truths
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SPEAKER_02: or conjecture or whatever,
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then we have to decide whether the choices we made under those
7:39
false pretenses,
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SPEAKER_02: whether we still want to live those those answers.
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And it's interesting as you and the book come to a different
7:50
conclusion and decide
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SPEAKER_01: that you do want to have a child,
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SPEAKER_01: it becomes the center of your universe,
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SPEAKER_01: this longing,
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SPEAKER_01: this craving,
7:59
SPEAKER_01: this absolute certainty.
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SPEAKER_01: And it is going head to head with the very...
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SPEAKER_01: natural timelines and the limitations of the female body,
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SPEAKER_01: which is this extraordinary tension in the narrative,
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SPEAKER_01: but even more so in reality than living your life.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_02: because then the question of the book and the sort of quest I was on was,
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SPEAKER_02: okay,
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SPEAKER_02: if I'm going to be a mother,
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SPEAKER_02: what are the options for what kind of mother I'd want to be?
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And what I'd seen in my own family and what I'd seen society
8:42
showing me when I
8:44
SPEAKER_02: looked at like what motherhood looks like.
8:46
under the patriarchy i'll just call it that it didn't look like
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anything i wanted
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to participate in being a mother looked from the outside
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especially the kind of
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tropes of motherhood that we see this sort of you know the trad
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wife brady bunch
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version it looked weak it looked it looks degrading it doesn't
9:08
look like any fun at
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SPEAKER_02: all so i thought like is there another way to be a mom
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SPEAKER_02: that's radical or revolutionary.
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SPEAKER_02: And that became my favorite chapter of the book.
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SPEAKER_02: I think it's chapter 10 called Outlaw Motherhood.
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And that was really a literary quest to go into some of my
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favorite writers,
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SPEAKER_02: Toni Morrison,
9:31
SPEAKER_02: Barbara Ehrenreich,
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SPEAKER_02: like open up these women's lives and see like,
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SPEAKER_02: do they,
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SPEAKER_02: have they carved out a path for us to be able to
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whether we're writers or not,
9:41
but be able to follow our dreams as women and be mothers too.
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SPEAKER_02: Because we're told you have to choose to be a mother.
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SPEAKER_02: You can't basically do anything else.
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And I wanted to find women who could do,
9:57
had many different parts of themselves.
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SPEAKER_01: One of the things that struck me in there,
10:01
and for anyone listening who doesn't see themselves in the
10:05
motherhood journey,
10:06
SPEAKER_01: I think it's
10:07
SPEAKER_01: Even beyond motherhood, it is a caregiving journey.
10:12
And so often women who do not choose or traditional motherhood
10:17
path take a
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SPEAKER_01: caregiving path in the end and make the same choices,
10:22
SPEAKER_01: which are everyone and everything else first and yourself last.
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And I think you were looking for the patron mask on first
10:34
narratives and you found them.
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SPEAKER_01: I did.
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SPEAKER_02: Eventually.
10:38
SPEAKER_02: Eventually.
10:40
SPEAKER_02: But I was surprised that someone,
10:44
SPEAKER_02: me,
10:45
SPEAKER_02: who calls herself a feminist her whole life,
10:48
SPEAKER_02: was a woman studies minor,
10:51
SPEAKER_02: had such a whitewashed...
10:54
SPEAKER_02: version of motherhood, such a tiny, narrow version of motherhood.
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SPEAKER_02: When I started reading,
11:00
it became obvious to me and should have been obvious all along
11:04
that there have been
11:05
SPEAKER_02: communities,
11:05
especially black and brown communities that have created
11:09
alternative shapes to
11:10
SPEAKER_02: motherhood and kinship networks and have always been
11:14
SPEAKER_02: had those alternative versions that are outside of,
11:18
SPEAKER_02: you know,
11:19
SPEAKER_02: the normal patriarchal culture,
11:21
SPEAKER_02: because they've had to be outside.
11:22
SPEAKER_02: And so why didn't I know this?
11:26
Or like,
11:26
why didn't I see it or chose not to see it or whatever we want
11:29
to say?
11:30
SPEAKER_02: And
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I think part of it is that we're so bombarded with the like
11:35
white noise machine of
11:37
SPEAKER_02: the like,
11:38
SPEAKER_02: this is what motherhood has to look like,
11:40
SPEAKER_02: or this is what family means.
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SPEAKER_02: And it's such a conservative viewpoint.
11:45
You have the binary of the trad wife and the childless cat
11:49
lady,
11:49
and there's nothing in between.
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SPEAKER_01: And yet your own mother and grandmother and great-grandmother,
11:57
SPEAKER_01: I think,
11:58
SPEAKER_01: showed you alternatives.
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SPEAKER_01: They just weren't alternatives that...
12:03
were loving or tender and you wanted something that brought in
12:08
the love and
12:10
connection of this trad wife ideal with the independence of
12:17
choice and some freedom
12:19
of choice that your mother and grandmother and great
12:22
grandmother displayed in their
12:24
SPEAKER_01: own very messy ways.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
12:28
You've said that better than anyone else has in any of my many
12:31
conversations.
12:32
SPEAKER_02: That is exactly right.
12:34
SPEAKER_02: I wanted the like explorer,
12:36
SPEAKER_02: adventurer,
12:37
SPEAKER_02: dreamer of the best qualities,
12:41
SPEAKER_02: I'll say,
12:41
SPEAKER_02: of the women in my family,
12:43
SPEAKER_02: mixed with the loving caregiving of some of the more traditional models.
12:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: And so what has worked in accomplishing that as a parent now?
12:56
SPEAKER_01: And not a 20-year-old mom.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: No, 43 by the time I had my child.
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SPEAKER_02: She's now five.
13:00
SPEAKER_02: I'm 48.
13:00
SPEAKER_02: There you go.
13:06
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I mean, I don't know.
13:08
SPEAKER_02: Like I tell people, I think 43 is the best age to have a child.
13:13
SPEAKER_02: If you're going that route, it's pretty good.
13:16
SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's a lot of advantages.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: And there's a lot of advantages.
13:19
I had figured out who I wanted to be in the world and what that
13:23
world should look like.
13:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm more financially secure than my parents were when they had me at 22.
13:29
SPEAKER_02: Identity-wise, you know, like all the things.
13:32
So,
13:33
of course,
13:33
I'm putting aside like the fertility struggle piece of it.
13:37
SPEAKER_02: But I think 43,
13:38
SPEAKER_02: I don't think 43 year olds should be written off and put out to pasture,
13:43
SPEAKER_02: so to speak.
13:44
SPEAKER_02: Or anything.
13:45
SPEAKER_02: So or anything.
13:46
SPEAKER_02: But so many of us are because it's like 43, you know, that's, you know.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: You've missed the boat.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's what I hope this entire project does.
13:58
We literally have,
13:59
at this point,
14:00
140 stories of women doing big,
14:03
brave things after age 40.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: And each one of them,
14:08
SPEAKER_01: I hope,
14:09
SPEAKER_01: serves as individual but also collective proof that it is not too late.
14:16
SPEAKER_01: And this underlying story,
14:18
SPEAKER_01: I think,
14:18
that you share in your memoir that these stories collectively
14:23
reinforce is that the
14:28
SPEAKER_01: old belief that we have to have our families sorted,
14:31
SPEAKER_01: our careers peaked,
14:34
SPEAKER_01: our relationships solid,
14:37
SPEAKER_01: and
14:38
All of our major life decisions,
14:40
complete and perfected before age 40,
14:44
is baloney.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: And boring.
14:47
SPEAKER_01: And boring.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: But it's also, it's just like, A, it doesn't make any sense.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: And B, what?
14:53
are you supposed to do with the second half of your life if
14:55
that's the case?
14:56
SPEAKER_01: Just sit back and be bored or just support other people in their dreams?
15:02
SPEAKER_01: Also,
15:03
if we all follow the same timeline and hit the same milestones
15:10
on that timeline,
15:12
SPEAKER_02: that is how we get robots,
15:14
SPEAKER_02: not humans.
15:16
SPEAKER_02: That doesn't make any sense.
15:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: No, I don't want to live in that world.
15:21
You say several times,
15:22
like,
15:22
this is taking away everything that makes us interesting as
15:26
humans.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
15:28
SPEAKER_02: And when I was thinking about my book,
15:30
I was hoping this would not just be a book that resonates with
15:34
women who are
15:35
SPEAKER_02: mothers.
15:36
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I hope that everyone would read this book.
15:39
I mean,
15:39
women who are daughters actually get a lot out of it too,
15:42
I think.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: which is all of us, right?
15:46
SPEAKER_01: I agree.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: That's how I listen to it more as a daughter than a mother.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: And I'm a mother of two daughters.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:51
SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad you said that because I was thinking when I,
15:55
SPEAKER_02: you know,
15:56
SPEAKER_02: when you're writing a book proposal,
15:57
SPEAKER_02: you have to say like,
15:58
SPEAKER_02: who's your audience?
15:59
SPEAKER_02: And I was like,
15:59
SPEAKER_02: I really hope it's not just people that have children,
16:03
SPEAKER_02: but people who might be on the fence and
16:06
SPEAKER_02: Or,
16:06
SPEAKER_02: you know,
16:07
SPEAKER_02: thinking about or even people who decidedly don't want children,
16:11
because I think this is a story about that anyone can relate to
16:15
because we all get
16:17
SPEAKER_02: wrenches thrown in our lives in different ways.
16:20
SPEAKER_02: Most of us multiple times.
16:21
SPEAKER_02: And there's many wrenches in this book, not just one.
16:25
SPEAKER_02: And yet most of us keep going.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: Well,
16:30
and I think we're more likely to keep going if we are
16:33
surrounded by people who keep
16:36
SPEAKER_01: going.
16:37
And that's why we need memoirs and podcasts and stories in
16:41
whatever form that give
16:43
SPEAKER_01: us hope that we can come through the really tough stuff,
16:46
SPEAKER_01: stronger,
16:47
SPEAKER_01: smarter,
16:47
SPEAKER_01: wiser,
16:48
which is what we really get to see unfold in your story is it's
16:52
sort of like you
16:52
SPEAKER_01: are throughout the book,
16:55
SPEAKER_01: right?
16:56
SPEAKER_01: accumulating understanding about what matters most to you in that moment,
17:02
and then deploying the resources you have available to you to
17:06
create the reality
17:07
SPEAKER_01: you want.
17:08
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
17:09
SPEAKER_02: And that's what I was hoping for.
17:10
SPEAKER_02: And I mean,
17:12
SPEAKER_02: in real life,
17:13
SPEAKER_02: and I hope on the page this comes through too,
17:15
SPEAKER_02: but I've always been asking myself,
17:17
SPEAKER_02: why couldn't I have learned these lessons earlier?
17:20
SPEAKER_02: They seem so obvious.
17:22
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
17:23
SPEAKER_01: You were busy learning other ones.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: Other lessons, some useful, some not, but.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe all useful.
17:30
SPEAKER_01: So to that point, I asked you about your feelings on bravery.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: And you said that bravery for you now is about
17:42
SPEAKER_01: Seeing what would happen if you didn't over function.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: I don't know that I've ever related to a definition of bravery more,
17:50
SPEAKER_01: but describe what that means for you,
17:53
SPEAKER_01: both in terms of the over functioning,
17:56
SPEAKER_01: but in terms of the courage to let go.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: I don't remember writing that, but that's funny that I said that.
18:02
Yeah.
18:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
18:04
SPEAKER_02: I think I've spent my whole life trying to unwind from,
18:09
SPEAKER_02: we can call it many different things,
18:11
SPEAKER_02: oldest child syndrome,
18:13
SPEAKER_02: oldest child,
18:15
SPEAKER_02: who's a daughter,
18:15
SPEAKER_02: eldest daughter syndrome.
18:16
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that's a thing.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: Survivor guilt.
18:19
SPEAKER_02: Survivor guilt,
18:20
SPEAKER_02: PTSD from trauma,
18:22
SPEAKER_02: like whatever,
18:23
all of these things that make me hypervigilant and make me want
18:29
to overfunction
18:30
SPEAKER_02: because I just don't trust that
18:32
SPEAKER_02: anyone else has like got it, whatever it is.
18:36
SPEAKER_02: I don't trust that there's a safety net.
18:38
And so I have to create that safety net for myself,
18:43
which I think has its pluses.
18:45
SPEAKER_02: But I also find that I want to create it for everyone else too.
18:49
SPEAKER_02: And what happens then is I get overwhelmed.
18:54
And so I think what I've tried to like unwind in therapy is
19:00
letting other people be
19:01
SPEAKER_02: their whole human selves and not trying to,
19:04
SPEAKER_02: you know,
19:05
SPEAKER_02: rescue or protect and letting them take care of me,
19:10
SPEAKER_02: letting others take care of me.
19:12
SPEAKER_02: That is very hard for me.
19:15
SPEAKER_02: And that is what being brave on a daily basis looks like right now.
19:20
I will tell you one pattern that emerged for me as I read your
19:23
book and our
19:26
SPEAKER_01: histories are same,
19:27
SPEAKER_01: same,
19:27
SPEAKER_01: but different.
19:29
SPEAKER_01: Our responses are same, same, but different.
19:31
And the men we fell in love with and like really let ourselves
19:37
love and be loved by
19:39
SPEAKER_01: instead of just wanted by and validated by have a lot in common too.
19:46
And so my hot take on all of this is that for folks like us,
19:51
I think probably one of
19:54
The major breakthroughs in letting ourselves love and be loved
20:02
is somebody who
20:03
SPEAKER_01: says,
20:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm on your side.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: And the feeling of being supported in that,
20:10
SPEAKER_01: at least for me,
20:11
SPEAKER_01: it was like,
20:12
SPEAKER_01: I was defenseless after that with my husband.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: I was like, wait, what?
20:16
SPEAKER_01: We're not adversaries?
20:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:20
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
20:21
SPEAKER_02: And we, I mean, I still have to remember that.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've been married to my husband for 20 years now and I'm like,
20:31
SPEAKER_01: 80, 90% there.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: It gets better at more so every year.
20:35
SPEAKER_02: Totally.
20:37
SPEAKER_02: We've been together,
20:38
SPEAKER_02: Rob,
20:38
SPEAKER_02: my spoiler alert for those who ever read the book,
20:40
SPEAKER_02: Rob,
20:41
SPEAKER_02: my second husband,
20:42
SPEAKER_02: and we've been together nine years and married for two.
20:46
SPEAKER_02: But yeah,
20:47
it's hard to remember that someone's on your side and wants the
20:51
same things and
20:52
SPEAKER_02: wants what's good for you and
20:57
SPEAKER_02: So that's been a really, a really hard piece.
20:59
SPEAKER_02: But bravery, when I was young, it seemed so much more obvious.
21:04
SPEAKER_02: It was less subtle, I guess.
21:05
SPEAKER_02: I would go,
21:06
I would run off to Africa and backpack and do these things that
21:11
like to the outside
21:12
SPEAKER_02: world seem brave.
21:15
SPEAKER_02: It's just like living out loud in some way.
21:17
SPEAKER_02: And now it's much more internal.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: And so what does that look like on a daily basis for you?
21:23
SPEAKER_01: What are some of the
21:25
SPEAKER_01: brave or courageous choices you make in a normal day?
21:29
SPEAKER_02: So many.
21:31
I mean,
21:32
I think even something as simple as shutting the door and
21:37
allowing myself to write.
21:40
And is the alternative guilting yourself into being everything
21:46
for everyone else
21:47
SPEAKER_01: instead of yourself and your work?
21:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:50
SPEAKER_02: Guilting myself.
21:51
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I still do that, even when I'm foreclosed.
21:55
SPEAKER_02: But I try to say, like, it doesn't help anybody to feel guilty right now.
22:01
SPEAKER_02: But yeah,
22:01
SPEAKER_02: allowing myself to write and giving myself permission to,
22:05
SPEAKER_02: you know,
22:07
SPEAKER_02: be a creative person,
22:08
SPEAKER_02: to put words down on the page that may be totally crappy,
22:13
SPEAKER_02: may not go anywhere,
22:15
SPEAKER_02: may not become anything.
22:18
SPEAKER_02: We're told by...
22:20
SPEAKER_02: capitalist society that everything we do has to be valuable.
22:24
SPEAKER_02: It has to be money.
22:27
SPEAKER_02: And so it's not only the guilt that I have as a mom,
22:30
SPEAKER_02: which of course there's that,
22:32
SPEAKER_02: that I have to like shut the door on my daughter,
22:34
SPEAKER_02: but there's the guilt of,
22:37
SPEAKER_02: shouldn't I be using this time in a more worthwhile way to,
22:41
to make money because that is another supposed function of us
22:47
and that there's the
22:49
loud very loud voice that says like whatever you're working on
22:53
like it's not going
22:53
to be anything what is that thing nobody's going to care and
22:57
how do you like dial
22:58
SPEAKER_02: down like turn down the volume knob on that voice how
23:04
SPEAKER_02: You just have to like, I hear you.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: I see you there on my shoulder saying those mean things.
23:12
SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to listen to you.
23:13
SPEAKER_02: I'm actively ignoring you right now.
23:17
It's interesting that you bring that one up because I've gotten
23:20
to talk to a lot of
23:21
SPEAKER_01: trailblazers on this show who are the first woman to do something.
23:25
And it's fascinating to me to look at them apart from all of
23:33
the other amazing
23:33
women I've talked to because they do ask themselves fewer of
23:38
those questions.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: They spend less time on them.
23:42
And they spend so much more time focused not on themselves or
23:46
their own worthiness
23:48
SPEAKER_01: or experience and on the problem they're solving.
23:51
And so that's the training I have tried to use with myself is
23:57
to when I have that
23:59
SPEAKER_01: fear crop up,
24:00
SPEAKER_01: the
24:01
SPEAKER_01: Am I doing a good job?
24:02
SPEAKER_01: Is this going to be worthwhile?
24:03
SPEAKER_01: Is to say like, oh, that's the scratchy feeling that says go deeper.
24:10
Don't distract yourself by getting some more coffee or checking
24:14
in on your kids or
24:15
SPEAKER_01: looking at Instagram.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: This is your signal to just look at the problem harder and it's helped.
24:22
SPEAKER_01: But I think it comes up for so many of us.
24:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:28
SPEAKER_02: I think that that is such an important thing to remember.
24:31
SPEAKER_02: Like it doesn't, I mean, hopefully it doesn't stop us.
24:35
SPEAKER_02: We do it anyway.
24:36
SPEAKER_02: We keep going.
24:37
SPEAKER_02: Hopefully.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think actually it's sort of a rare outcome.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: I think more often than not we do stop.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: And then we're like, oh, why didn't this happen?
24:46
SPEAKER_01: Why didn't I do this thing?
24:48
SPEAKER_02: And I say to my clients,
24:49
SPEAKER_02: my students,
24:51
SPEAKER_02: the people that write books,
24:53
SPEAKER_02: they're the people that just kept writing.
24:56
SPEAKER_02: It's not like they have more talent or any of those kind of things.
25:01
SPEAKER_02: It's not like those...
25:02
SPEAKER_02: you know, lone genius, lone whatever, like those stories are myths.
25:08
SPEAKER_02: It's just like they kept going.
25:10
So maybe sometimes they,
25:12
you know,
25:12
stopped,
25:13
but then they went back to it.
25:15
SPEAKER_02: So I think there's something to be said for that.
25:19
SPEAKER_02: Like, don't talk yourself out of whatever it is you want to do.
25:24
SPEAKER_02: So that's another way,
25:26
SPEAKER_02: I guess,
25:27
SPEAKER_02: same thing,
25:28
SPEAKER_02: but a way of being brave is telling myself,
25:30
SPEAKER_02: like,
25:31
SPEAKER_02: this is what you tell your students.
25:32
SPEAKER_02: So you got to walk the walk.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
25:35
what strikes me about both of these examples is there is an
25:38
awareness of the
25:40
thought being a barrier and there is an alternative to it that
25:46
we have designed
25:47
SPEAKER_01: that we can turn to again and again in these situations,
25:49
SPEAKER_01: whether they be with how we raise our kids,
25:51
SPEAKER_01: how we are in relationship with our partners,
25:53
SPEAKER_01: how we make brave creative work,
25:55
SPEAKER_01: build companies,
25:56
SPEAKER_01: whatever it is,
25:59
knowing that the tendency is there and then knowing that there
26:02
is an alternative to
26:04
SPEAKER_01: to counter that belief is really important.
26:07
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
26:08
SPEAKER_02: And I think, I mean, I think it's hard for everybody.
26:11
I think it's especially hard for women because we're told that
26:17
the most important
26:18
thing that we should be thinking about all the time is
26:21
caregiving of some sort,
26:22
SPEAKER_02: taking care of everyone else.
26:24
And so we only give ourselves permission to have the time when
26:29
everyone else is
26:29
SPEAKER_02: already taken care of.
26:31
SPEAKER_02: And so I've had to really try.
26:34
SPEAKER_02: I'm not always perfect at this, but like to deprogram that out.
26:40
SPEAKER_02: And now I put time on the calendar.
26:42
SPEAKER_02: I have a calendar hold that says you're a writer.
26:46
SPEAKER_02: So right now,
26:47
SPEAKER_02: And it's not every day,
26:50
SPEAKER_02: but on the days I'm meant to be writing,
26:53
SPEAKER_02: I give myself my morning hours because those are my best hours.
26:57
SPEAKER_02: And then I do client work or chores or whatever later on in the day.
27:03
SPEAKER_01: That's so good.
27:05
SPEAKER_02: It's revolutionary.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: It is though, isn't it?
27:10
SPEAKER_02: It is.
27:10
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, how come, why does this feel revolutionary?
27:13
SPEAKER_02: But it is.
27:15
SPEAKER_01: That's how it always is, right?
27:16
SPEAKER_01: It's the simple stuff that makes all the difference.
27:19
And it's the stuff that we've heard 4,000 times,
27:22
but then we hear that makes all the difference.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: And so there is somebody out here who will hear this and say,
27:29
SPEAKER_01: oh,
27:31
I'm just going to put that on my calendar and have a physical
27:33
reminder to this
27:36
technology that I feel so beholden to and that I treat with
27:40
greater integrity than
27:42
SPEAKER_01: I do my own dreams and goals.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: I will honor it more if I see it over and over again.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:48
SPEAKER_02: And how silly.
27:49
Also,
27:50
there's the time that you put aside for something,
27:53
but also that I'm an author.
27:55
SPEAKER_02: There's a book out in the world and I still tell myself,
27:59
SPEAKER_02: oh,
27:59
SPEAKER_02: but you don't make the majority of your money from writing.
28:04
SPEAKER_02: Therefore, you're not a writer.
28:05
SPEAKER_02: Right.
28:06
SPEAKER_02: Like all the ways that we like ding ourselves.
28:09
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
28:10
SPEAKER_02: And diminish the stuff that you worked so hard for.
28:13
SPEAKER_02: Right.
28:14
SPEAKER_02: Right.
28:15
SPEAKER_02: So I think like,
28:16
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
28:17
SPEAKER_02: I think it's important to say that because I think that so often,
28:23
SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
28:23
SPEAKER_02: I think I do this.
28:25
I see somebody and I'm like,
28:27
oh,
28:28
she has or he has this thing they haven't figured out.
28:32
SPEAKER_02: Right.
28:32
SPEAKER_02: But I don't think that's true anymore.
28:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm beginning to think that that's true less and less.
28:37
SPEAKER_02: I think it's a constant like work in progress.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:43
And I think one of the things your book shows us is that we see
28:46
what we want to see.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
28:49
And that if we look at it again,
28:50
we might see something entirely different.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:53
I'm so glad you said that because I do think the
28:56
self-fulfilling prophecy thing is
28:58
SPEAKER_02: important because when I was in my twenties,
29:01
SPEAKER_02: I had been looking for role models of mothers,
29:03
but I didn't believe it was possible that to find good role
29:08
models of mothers that,
29:09
SPEAKER_02: that had done other things in the world.
29:12
SPEAKER_02: So I was looking at models like Sylvia Plath and Sexton and
29:17
SPEAKER_02: Women whose lives ended very tragically.
29:21
SPEAKER_02: But that was a self-fulfilling prophecy.
29:23
SPEAKER_02: That's what I was looking for.
29:24
SPEAKER_02: By the time I went on the literary quest that I mentioned earlier,
29:28
SPEAKER_02: looking for examples of alternative shapes to motherhood,
29:31
SPEAKER_02: I was ready,
29:32
like I was primed to find women who had created these lives for
29:40
themselves and
29:40
SPEAKER_02: their children that were completely off the beaten path.
29:45
SPEAKER_02: And so it really does,
29:46
the things show up in our lives in ways like based on what
29:51
we're looking for.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: And based on your experience, right?
29:54
SPEAKER_01: Like you were surrounded by mentally ill mothers.
29:57
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: And so, of course, that's what you were going to go look for.
30:02
But as you opened up that lens further,
30:06
you were able to see more possibilities in there.
30:09
SPEAKER_01: And I think that, again, is true for all of life.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: So you are, as you said, 48.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: You've written this book.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: It's really freaking good.
30:19
SPEAKER_01: You worked on it essentially your entire life.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: And now you are helping others write their stories.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: What is the next big, brave thing you want to do in your life?
30:35
SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
30:35
SPEAKER_02: It's such a good question.
30:37
SPEAKER_02: I have more stories that I want to tell.
30:42
SPEAKER_02: I'm working on a second book.
30:45
SPEAKER_02: Yay.
30:46
SPEAKER_02: I'm very excited about that.
30:47
SPEAKER_02: It's also nonfiction.
30:50
SPEAKER_02: It has my personal story, but it's not only memoir.
30:53
SPEAKER_02: is a larger story that I think is important to tell.
30:56
SPEAKER_02: So that feels exciting to me because I think I also,
31:01
SPEAKER_02: I never thought that I would be a one book woman.
31:06
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that's a thing.
31:08
I never thought I'd be one and done when it came to books,
31:11
but I don't know.
31:12
I think that there was a little bit of self doubt,
31:14
like,
31:14
can I do this again?
31:15
SPEAKER_02: And now I'm just so excited about, about writing again.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's beautiful.
31:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm so happy for you and for us.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: I can't wait to see what you create next.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: How has your first experience and the highs and lows of it,
31:33
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:33
I know you've shared on your Instagram that your first book
31:36
deal fell through.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: I think that was the phrasing you used on it.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: And so it wasn't just like, I'm Ruthie Ackerman.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: I've published in all these fabulous places.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: So they were all clamoring at my doorstep, waiting to buy my book.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: And I said, you, I choose you.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: Which could be one way of looking outside in at the story.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: My newly dramatized story.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: It was full of ups and downs.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: It was not straightforward or simple.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: And so how are you bringing the lessons from that into...
32:09
SPEAKER_01: your courage practice for writing this next book.
32:13
SPEAKER_02: Goodness.
32:14
SPEAKER_02: I love the term courage practice.
32:17
SPEAKER_02: I need that.
32:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:19
SPEAKER_02: I think the thing about, I mean, doing anything in life,
32:24
SPEAKER_02: The thing that I do is is right.
32:26
SPEAKER_02: So I can speak to that.
32:27
SPEAKER_02: It's like doing anything.
32:29
SPEAKER_02: You have to have really thick skin.
32:30
SPEAKER_02: There's the I mean,
32:33
SPEAKER_02: so many pieces,
32:35
SPEAKER_02: but like the losing my first book deal,
32:38
SPEAKER_02: having written the book,
32:40
SPEAKER_02: sold the book,
32:41
SPEAKER_02: signed the contract for the book.
32:43
SPEAKER_02: And like and that's, you know, I don't know.
32:46
let's call it five years of work on that book that felt wasted
32:50
or down the drain.
32:51
Although like now I can tell you that nothing's wasted and that
32:54
was not a waste,
32:55
but yeah.
32:57
And then to like pick myself up off the,
33:00
you know,
33:00
proverbial floor and write another book.
33:04
SPEAKER_02: And not knowing if it was going to be a book,
33:06
SPEAKER_02: it started as an essay and then sort of slowly,
33:09
SPEAKER_02: slowly,
33:10
SPEAKER_02: slowly became a book.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: And then to say,
33:14
SPEAKER_02: like,
33:14
SPEAKER_02: and by the way,
33:15
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I said this on Instagram,
33:17
SPEAKER_02: but when I sold the mother code to Random House,
33:22
SPEAKER_02: there were 37 other editors that said no.
33:26
SPEAKER_02: There were two that had been interested and one of them was random.
33:31
So there were so many rejections and it felt so personal
33:36
because it was my story.
33:38
It didn't feel like,
33:39
oh,
33:39
they're just sort of like rejecting this product or something.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: It was me.
33:44
And so trying to remember that I have a story to tell and try
33:49
to remember the
33:50
SPEAKER_02: people who have written to me individually to say,
33:53
SPEAKER_02: oh,
33:54
SPEAKER_02: I needed to hear this story at this moment because I'm going through X,
33:59
SPEAKER_02: Y,
33:59
SPEAKER_02: and Z,
34:00
SPEAKER_02: whatever that is.
34:01
SPEAKER_02: So that's where the real feeling of success comes from.
34:07
And I'm using,
34:08
you guys,
34:09
I don't know if they can see me because they're going to be
34:12
listed.
34:12
SPEAKER_02: They get to podcast.
34:13
SPEAKER_02: No, they can't see me.
34:14
SPEAKER_02: I'm using success in an air quote because people have asked me also,
34:19
SPEAKER_02: like how has your book been a success?
34:21
SPEAKER_02: Has this whole experience been a success?
34:24
SPEAKER_02: And I say there's so many different ways to think about success, right?
34:29
SPEAKER_02: It's not a New York Times bestseller.
34:31
SPEAKER_02: That's one way to look at success.
34:34
SPEAKER_02: It's not sold a million copies like Oprah's book club picks like that.
34:39
But people have written to me and said that my book has meant
34:44
something to them.
34:44
SPEAKER_02: And that's so cool.
34:46
SPEAKER_02: Strangers.
34:48
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I don't know.
34:49
SPEAKER_02: And success and bravery and courage are different things.
34:53
SPEAKER_02: But I do think that part of what I've been thinking about is like,
34:59
what are the ways that we measure our lives to know whether
35:05
what we're doing is
35:06
SPEAKER_02: worthy?
35:06
SPEAKER_02: And I talk about that in the mother code.
35:10
SPEAKER_02: And the only thing I could think is that like,
35:14
continuing to write is the most worthy,
35:17
courageous thing that I could do.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
35:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
35:22
SPEAKER_01: And you're a writer.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: It's all right.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: And you are so many other things and you're doing those too.
35:34
SPEAKER_01: So every guest on our show nominates a woman who is an uplifter,
35:39
SPEAKER_01: somebody who's doing big,
35:41
SPEAKER_01: brave things,
35:42
SPEAKER_01: who inspires her,
35:43
SPEAKER_01: who brings others up as she rises.
35:46
SPEAKER_01: Who would you like to nominate?
35:48
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, I'm on the spot.
35:49
I mean,
35:51
the lucky thing about my life is that there are so many
35:55
uplifters in my life.
35:56
Yeah.
35:57
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if anyone's told you about Sloane Davidson.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: No.
36:01
SPEAKER_02: But she runs an organization called Hello Neighbor in Pittsburgh.
36:05
And she works with refugees to find them like resources and
36:11
housing placements and
36:13
just like all the things you could imagine that new individuals
36:17
and families would
36:18
SPEAKER_02: need coming to this country.
36:20
And also if you can imagine how hard that work must be in an
36:24
environment like we're
36:25
SPEAKER_02: living in today.
36:27
SPEAKER_02: She's someone that I think really deserves to be uplifted for that work,
36:31
SPEAKER_02: but also just because she's a rock star.
36:34
SPEAKER_02: She's an awesome person.
36:35
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
36:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would love to talk to her.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like we need to connect her with Carrie Brody,
36:40
who started Emma's Torch and is helping our newest neighbors
36:45
have sustainable
36:46
SPEAKER_01: careers in kitchens in New York and D.C.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: So as uplifters, we love to uplift other uplifters.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: What is the best way that we can uplift you and your work at this point?
37:01
SPEAKER_02: Oh, man.
37:02
SPEAKER_02: First of all, just being here, it feels so uplifting.
37:05
SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
37:07
SPEAKER_02: Just getting to talk about my favorite stuff to talk about,
37:10
SPEAKER_02: which is women in our lives and how to navigate them.
37:15
SPEAKER_02: buying my book.
37:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: It would be remiss not to say, I mean, that's the thing.
37:20
SPEAKER_02: Buy the book.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: I got it on Audible, which was great because you can listen to Ruthie.
37:25
SPEAKER_01: And I say that because I have felt,
37:27
and I think a lot of people feel like a sense of shame for not
37:32
reading paper books
37:33
SPEAKER_01: and like holding them in their hands.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: And my 13 year old totally shames me on this.
37:39
SPEAKER_01: She's like, it's not reading, mom.
37:42
SPEAKER_01: BS, it's reading.
37:43
And so for the other people who are not holding the paper
37:46
books,
37:47
you can listen to it.
37:49
SPEAKER_02: Listen to it.
37:50
SPEAKER_01: I can read you to sleep at night.
37:53
You can read to me while I do my dishes and fold laundry and go
37:57
for a nice long walk.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: It's great.
37:58
SPEAKER_02: All of those things I am here for you at any hour.
38:04
SPEAKER_02: So that's one thing.
38:05
SPEAKER_02: The other thing would be if you know somebody who's interested,
38:08
SPEAKER_02: not only in writing a book,
38:10
SPEAKER_02: but just exploring writing as creative practice,
38:14
SPEAKER_02: going to my website,
38:15
SPEAKER_02: RuthieAckerman.com.
38:17
SPEAKER_02: I just announced my January classes.
38:20
I can't believe we're talking about 2026 already,
38:23
but I just announced my January classes.
38:25
SPEAKER_02: I also have a sub stack.
38:27
SPEAKER_02: called The Spark.
38:29
SPEAKER_02: Very good.
38:31
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
38:32
SPEAKER_02: Where I talk about all kinds of like,
38:35
SPEAKER_02: one is that I love a lot of different things,
38:37
SPEAKER_02: not just writing.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: So I have like monthly recommendations of just fun things that I love.
38:43
SPEAKER_02: And so that's good.
38:44
But then there's also craft lessons and,
38:47
you know,
38:47
cool writing practices.
38:49
SPEAKER_02: And then I also try to highlight a woman every month,
38:52
SPEAKER_02: a writer who's writing some kind of cool book.
38:56
SPEAKER_02: and kind of ask them for five things that they're loving right now.
39:00
So anyway,
39:01
read my Substack and then follow me on Instagram at RU Ackerman.
39:06
SPEAKER_02: And maybe all this will be in your show notes.
39:09
It will.
39:10
SPEAKER_02: It will.
39:10
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
39:11
So then follow me on Instagram because I also do fun stuff
39:14
there sometimes too.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
39:17
it's so great to see you in all of these places and to see the
39:22
ways that you are
39:23
SPEAKER_01: creating community and role modeling,
39:28
SPEAKER_01: authenticity,
39:29
SPEAKER_01: and integrity in your work and in your life.
39:35
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for saying that.
39:36
SPEAKER_02: I spent a long time trying to, I worked at a lot of media companies.
39:41
I tried to like be this thing that I think like maybe fit for a
39:46
while and then
39:47
SPEAKER_02: stopped fitting at some point.
39:49
And I felt like at that point in my life,
39:52
there was like professional me and personal me.
39:55
SPEAKER_02: And now it's like one thing.
39:57
SPEAKER_02: I don't think there's a difference between all those.
40:01
SPEAKER_02: There's no different part.
40:02
I mean,
40:02
not that we all don't have masks that we wear,
40:05
but like what you see is like,
40:07
SPEAKER_02: Like we're here.
40:08
SPEAKER_02: Like, I think it's kind of the same, right?
40:11
SPEAKER_01: It's pretty exciting.
40:13
SPEAKER_01: In my work, I call it wearing the caftan.
40:16
SPEAKER_01: That's it.
40:17
This idea of just like wrapping it all up in you,
40:22
the unique,
40:23
rich layers that are you.
40:27
SPEAKER_01: It was really cool to hang out with you.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for being here with me.
40:30
SPEAKER_01: And thank you for your brave work in the world.
40:32
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
40:36
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to the Uplifters podcast.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: If you're getting a boost from these episodes,
40:42
please share them with the uplifters in your life and then join
40:47
us in conversation
40:48
SPEAKER_01: over at theuplifterspodcast.com.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: Head over to Spotify,
40:53
SPEAKER_01: Apple podcast,
40:54
SPEAKER_01: or wherever you get your podcast and like,
40:57
SPEAKER_01: follow,
40:58
SPEAKER_01: and rate our show.
40:59
It'll really help us connect with more uplifters and it'll
41:03
ensure you never miss
41:05
SPEAKER_01: one of these beautiful stories.
41:09
SPEAKER_03: Big love.
41:11
SPEAKER_03: Painted water,
41:12
SPEAKER_03: sunshine,
41:14
SPEAKER_03: with rosemary and tongue Dwelling,
41:16
SPEAKER_03: not perplexing,
41:18
SPEAKER_03: though you find it vexing Toss a star and hover,
41:23
SPEAKER_03: be your own best lover Relish in a new prime,
41:27
SPEAKER_03: plant a tree in springtime Dance without all hindsight,
41:32
SPEAKER_03: bring the sun to twilight Lift you up
41:40
SPEAKER_03: Lift you up, whoa Lift you up, whoa Lift you up, whoa Lift you up, whoa
42:08
SPEAKER_03: Lift you up.
42:09
SPEAKER_03: Beautiful.
42:11
SPEAKER_03: I cried.
42:13
SPEAKER_03: It's that little thing you did with your voice.
42:22
SPEAKER_01: Right, in the pre-chorus, right?
42:24
SPEAKER_01: I was like... Mommy, stop crying.
42:28
SPEAKER_01: Mommy, stop crying.
42:29
SPEAKER_01: You're disturbing the peace.