Latest / The Infertile Diaries / 12: Angel Garcia III (Pastor of Family Church Lakeside Campus)

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12: Angel Garcia III (Pastor of Family Church Lakeside Campus) · The Infertile Diaries

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_04: How have you learned to live with what you've lost?
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_04: Did you get the chance to grieve?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_04: Or did life keep asking you to get up, get dressed, and just get through another day?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes the very things that have helped us survive a loss are the things we have to learn to let go of in order to heal.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_04: Today, on the Infertile Diaries, we welcome Pastor Angel Garcia from Family Church's Lakeside Campus.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_04: Angel was just nine years old when he watched his father tragically die.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_04: His father was a larger-than-life Miami nightclub owner who could fill a room with his personality.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_04: Then, right in front of Angel, he was gone.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_04: Years later, Angel's mother would pass unexpectedly, and by the time he was twenty-four, he had lost over sixteen members of his family.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_04: Angel had learned how to keep going, and when he and his wife lost pregnancies, he began to see how much he still relied on those childhood coping mechanisms.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_04: Today, Angel talks about what happens when grief goes unspoken.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_04: And together we ask one of the hardest questions to say out loud when you're hurting.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_04: How can there be a good God when there's so much pain?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_04: In our conversation, Angel takes us to the tomb of Lazarus.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_04: Jesus stands outside the place where his friend is buried, and he knows that in a matter of moments he will call Lazarus out of that tomb.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_04: And still Jesus weeps.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_04: I keep coming back to that moment.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_04: Jesus knew what was coming, and yet he cries with those he loves.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe you need to hear that today.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_04: When you're still standing in front of what you've lost, God is there with you, and he weeps with you.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_04: We discuss all this and more.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome to the Infertile Diaries.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_05: This isn't just a podcast.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_05: This is your place, and these are your stories.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_04: A place of heartbreak to hope.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_04: This is the Infertile Diaries Podcast.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_04: Angel is very near and dear to my heart because he was my personal pastor for many years until they moved up over to Lakeside.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_04: But he is currently the teaching pastor at Lakeside here in Orlando.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Lakeside Family Church.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: There's another church called Lakeside.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_04: So we gotta make that decision.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: We are a family church campus called Lakeside.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_04: So Angel was born and raised in the Miami area to Cuban immigrant parents.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: Specifically Hyalea.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: For anyone who knows Miami well, you know that that is a city where you develop personality.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so and many stories.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_04: So you hold a bachelor's degree in theology from Moody Bible Institute and a master's degree from Knox Theological Seminary.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_04: You're also an author.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_04: You came out with Balancing Truth and Love, which I've read and is a phenomenal book.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_04: So we'll link that in the show notes.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_04: And then he's also the co-host of Just Released Faith That Stands podcast, which has been such a blessing to me because we were kind of having this discussion beforehand, but I've had some friends reach out lately and they're like, hey, you know, my entire family is Jewish and I really want to minister to them.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_04: Like, what are some resources that you could send me?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_04: And so I feel like your podcast is giving me least robbable case for faith vibes, but just a much more vibrant, I feel like, takeaway.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes the book can get a little dry, even though I love it.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like I had some incredible theological takeaways from that book.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_04: But I feel like you are very well-rounded in all the things.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_04: You also have a beautiful wife, Kate, who taught me how to uh do sourdough.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_04: Nice.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_04: And my source.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_03: Congratulations, Lane.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: Her brother has helped me be well-rounded.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_04: In all my it took us a second for that one.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_04: We're just so grateful to have you on the podcast today.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_04: So you have experienced miscarriage, you and Kate have.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_04: And so that's what you're here to talk about today.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_04: But I feel like we would be remiss to go straight into that experience and not kind of explore a little bit of your upbringing, some of the grief and the trauma that you experienced at a young age, and then kind of, you know, how that parlayed into your experience of miscarriages and beyond.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_04: So if you want to take us into a little bit of your story growing up, you had a very vivacious father.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Man, that's a good word.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: Vivacious.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, that's an excellent word.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_04: Have you ever used that word?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: I have never used.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Did you how did you come up with it?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_04: I am also an author.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm very excited.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_04: I'm sorry.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so impressed.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: That word hit me.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: My beach.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_04: Something with her words.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, thank you.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_04: Something that you said about your father resonated with me.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_04: You were saying that after you lost him, it was like everyone turned the music in a party out, and you were trying to figure out how to dance without the music.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, wow, that is so profound.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: He was incredible.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: And so, like uh just jumping right into it, my dad he was a nightclub owner in Miami, and he was a very successful nightclub owner on multiple nightclubs in his mid-20s.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: It was kind of ridiculous like that.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: And then his lifestyle that he was developing within the nightclubs really didn't accommodate marriage and and children.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: And he was just kind of all over the place with a lot of his lifestyle choices.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and you know, he he wasn't following Jesus, had no direction, an immigrant into this country, experiencing tremendous success, and um that just led to a lifestyle that really eventually led to my parents divorcing, most three, and then that just like propelled him deeper into that crazy wild lifestyle.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: And but his personality was massive and just robust, that's my big word.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: He had a robust uh personality, but it was one that really just got him a lot of popularity in Miami, and so my family was really well known for being uh connected to my dad, who his name was Angel as well, and so he was Angel uh the second, and I'm Angel Garcia the third.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so, so yeah, so it was kind of interesting growing up in the shadow of my dad, where everywhere we would go, people knew him no matter where we went.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so that was a it was really interesting with him in that.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: And do you want me to go right into uh what happened with him or was there another question after that?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_04: Sure, yeah.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_04: Well, just uh, you know, kind of how it correlates to your experience with miscarriage.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like you dealt with a lot of grief and suffering early on.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_04: So do you want to take us into maybe when you lost him?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_03: My dad, um, my parents were divorced at this point, and I was nine years old, and uh there was one particular day that that we went out jet skiing.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_03: So we had taken out his boat and his jet his jet ski, and we were just outside um the Miami Sea Quarium, um, down in Miami, for anyone who knows Miami area well.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: And while there, there was a moment that he was he wanted to kind of like do tricks for me to show me tricks from a distance while I was in the boat.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: And then while he was maybe about 20 yards away, another jet ski rider who was under the influence came and I guess didn't react fast enough and they collided.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so um when they collided, it was it was literally right in front of me.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I'm about to cry right now, just even bringing it up, but um and so then that was he he died on impact, and uh and I feel like in a lot of ways a huge portion of our family died on impact as well, like immediately, it felt like um and it was it was one of those crazy situations as a child because of the abruptness of his death, and it taught me an incredible lesson.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the big things with my dad's death and in the dynamic of my family was that no one in my family really knew how to cope with death, and and from what I know, as much as I know, there was no one in my family following Jesus or even understanding um the wisdom of scripture or even the ways of scripture, and so my family really quickly went right into making decisions and choosing distractions, decisions and distractions.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's just what my family kind of like became obsessed with, and then uh so growing up in that world where it was just like there everyone was just doing their best, but at the same time, it felt like this massive personality and massive person was left, and it was like the music in a in a party being shut down and everybody still trying to act like it's still playing.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: So it was really it was really unusual and unique, but it led to a lot of like struggles.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like my mom began to just overwork, and my mom, because even though they were divorced, she always had this aspiration that they would one day get back together because they started their relationships with each other.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think it was like in middle school or something like that.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: Like their majority of their life was alongside each other, so for him to die.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_05: And this was in Cuba, yeah.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_05: That they started they and they they came together to America.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: So they knew of each other in Cuba, and then my dad he didn't come.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: Well, my mom and dad didn't come straight from Cuba to America.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh my mom went to Spain, and I think she was there for about five years, and then my dad came in through America, uh came to America, I think it was through Mexico.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and then when they came to Miami, what was happening was a lot of people from Cuba were like coming to see other friends and people that they knew back in Cuba here in America.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so they grew up together in a lot of ways, so their divorce was was really hard for my mom, but there was this thought we're gonna for sure get back together.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: So when he died, that was something that just it it unraveled my mother.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_04: And how old were you at the time?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_04: So I was nine.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_04: You were nine.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_03: And my sister, my sister was ten.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so that season, even though I was so young in my family throughout my my life, especially after that, like I had like a bigger, a big role very early on with my family.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and so with my sister, there was a lot of moments and a lot of seasons where I was kind of like just kind of taking the posture almost like of an older brother with my older sister, and then just having to experience some things very early on with my family, that was really hard.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: But it all stemmed back to not processing with the grief uh that came from losing my father.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_04: Well, as a nine-year-old, I mean, I don't know how you process that, right?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_04: Like to to watch that, and then if you're not in therapy, if you're not working through it, I mean if your family's coping skills are, you know, distraction and let's move on and let's you know do other things.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I don't know how you would process that, right?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_04: You probably just were never given the ability to or the chance to.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you you definitely don't do it well.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_03: And and you just you just learn how to really distract yourself with with things that um sometimes are healthy, and even sometimes things that are not healthy.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_03: And so there was a seasons in our family where there was distractions that were healthy things, but then distractions that were just really um that created more problems.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: And uh And so yeah, but like the death of my father, that wasn't the only like grief and suffering that I dealt with.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: If anything, I just felt like it was like my introduction to it.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_06: Uh-huh.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so by the age of twenty-four, by the age of twenty-four, there was about sixteen family members.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: Sixteen or seven?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: No, sixteen.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh sixteen family members that had passed away.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: Including.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so, yeah, when I was twenty-four, my mom passed.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: And her death was just as abrupt.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, she had died from bacterial meningitis.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was the kind of thing where one night she's like, I'm not feeling well.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_03: And then I'm like, Do I just go to sleep, take some sleepy pills, sleep it off?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_03: And then next morning, uh, she had she had passed away her sleep.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_04: Did you find her?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: No, I was in Chicago at the time.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: I had the I had just graduated from Moody and I was wrapping up a like a small like three-week course that I had to finish to complete my degree.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so I was actually getting ready to move back down to Miami.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so when she passed, I was in Chicago and I was able to fly down immediately to be with her to to handle all of those things.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: And so yeah, it was it was a really heavy thing, but that kind of suffering, it's done a lot for me personally.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of a lot of negative, obviously, but then also a lot of really positive things.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_04: And so what are some of the positive things?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I think for some of the positive things.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think one of the biggest things that has done is obviously made me more grateful for time I get with people.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's made me more grateful and appreciative for anything I get to have of anyone.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_03: And and I think in a lot of ways too, not only does it make me more appreciative and grateful, I feel like I'm able to really enjoy and savor things really well.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: I think all all of the death that I've experienced, it has allowed me to to really not allow small things to be big things and to really allow my heart to forgive quickly and and to really allow myself to just savor the the moments I get to have with my sons, with my wife, with with strangers and ministry, and and it's also allowed me to be more empathetic and compassionate with people.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so because the sufferings in my life and all these deaths and and different sufferings I've dealt with, I haven't dealt with them perfectly.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like I've I've made mistakes in my own processing of pain and my own dealing with all those different uh, I guess, daggers, emotional daggers.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so like that has allowed me to look at people who I mean they're just dealing with their pain in different ways.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I can sit across from them and understand.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, absolutely.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_05: You're the last person to judge someone.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, you're seeing them deal with their pain and that what it looks like.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_05: When so when you were from nine to to twenty four, so that was fifteen years, you had sixteen deaths, two of which were your parents.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: That is in my family though, my family was made up majority of like people who were really old.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_03: So like in their in their eighties in that age bracket.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so a lot of them were dying from natural causes.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um but they were always very abrupt.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: That that's what was really hard.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: And uh because it was always like one moment someone's here, the next moment we're cleaning out their house.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so, like, it was always eerie on Thanksgiving because it was always like a I don't mean to laugh.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_04: No, it's fine, it's fine.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: I felt that like there was once where my grandmother, I'll never forget, she's sitting around the table and there was like these empty chairs, and it was like right before the meal.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_03: She says, I wonder which chair is gonna be empty next year.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_05: And we're all like, Oh my gosh.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: But at that point, that was the expectation past the yucca, like what's going on, and so it's a lot of deaths.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_05: Like, I don't even know if I know 16 people in my family for real.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_05: Like, that is a lot of death.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_05: And so my question is I know you had said like you guys were all dealing with it like differently, you weren't dealing with it, but then the last you just spoke about your mothers, you were you were just graduating from sermonary, yes.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_05: So, at what point did you kind of look at your whole family and look at yourself and your processing and say, I need Jesus?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_05: Like, where where along that line did you find him and then want to go to sermonary?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so so that's actually uh part of the reasons why I feel like I feel like all that suffering has not completely crushed me as a as a person.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: Because the truth is I I uh there's sometimes I'll listen to to people's stories because I listen to people's stories a lot, and um, and I watch how they try and endure even a fraction of that without Christ, and it just like just wishes them almost like a grape.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: And um, so I started following Jesus when I was 16, and as far back as we know, I was the first in my family to start following Jesus.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: And and I say as far back as we know, because there's still a lot of family of mine that once my father died, we lost complete contact with um his entire side of the family, and that and even that was was a crazy story.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: But uh I was 16 years old and and the Lord really met with me in a way that was made it very obvious that he's real, and and he was real and he wanted to walk with me and he wanted me to surrender to him.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: And um and that that ordeal, that topic is a podcast in itself, I don't want to eat up too much time with that.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: But I remember when I was 16 years old, um there was three things that like in my early process of following Jesus that really was massive to me.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: And and I wrote in my notes, they all start with a C and I laugh because it almost feels like uh my friends make fun of me and say I I talk like if I'm on Sesame Street.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'm sort of like.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: I know, I know, it's embarrassing, but when I was writing this, I was like, oh, that rhymes.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: But it was it was really the content that you find within Christianity, the community that you find within Christianity, and the comfort.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: And and when I really think back to my teenage years, like the content that's found in those teachings of scripture, that was so massive for me in in my early years of faith, even though I struggled so much with reading, reading the scriptures and learning the scriptures was helping me understand that my life is a part of a bigger story of creation and like the brokenness and the suffering and the things I'm watching in this world constantly.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: That was not just some random stuff, that it was a part of sin that had come into this world.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: But then there was hope in the midst of it, and then there's there's God's wisdom in the midst of it, and there's God's ways and his path and direction, and I'm not just left to figure things out on my own.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_04: Felt safe.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah, like if it felt like it gave me handlebars.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: I was getting I was developing handlebars on life.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like if I if I turn this way, I'm off a path.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_03: Now I can get back on a path.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_05: Such a good analogy.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_03: Well, as a kid, like it was just so, and especially as as a as a boy who didn't have a dad, and I was just desperately longing for someone to give me direction.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: And through the scriptures at a young age, God was giving me that direction I was longing for.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and the practicality of the scriptures, and so like that was a huge thing for me early uh while I was following Christ.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_03: And then the community.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, God started providing mentors for me, He started providing other men, He started providing friends that could actually do things that were not um harmful, that were healthy things with, and laugh and enjoy and and have all these wonderful memories that you know that I can moments of laughter and and great things and then go home and deal with pain.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: But I had like a respite from the pain and suffering that was in my house.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_03: And um in a lot of ways, when I look back on my life, um there's like a laundry list of men who when there was at one point I started realizing, man, everywhere I go, God keeps providing men to come alongside me, men who are in other stages of life.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I started realizing that the scripture of uh that says that God is a father to the fatherless, that was him fathering me through his through his church.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: And and he's been doing it.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_03: And then the craziest thing is now as I look back, I see how he's used me now to do that for other people, especially when I was a student pastor and a house parent at a foster home.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: But so it wasn't just the content and community, but it was even like a legitimate comfort that I was experiencing, um, just even knowing the Lord and moments of like agony and pain, and moments of like feeling kicked in the stomach and feeling even peace in those moments.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: And because the deaths of of my father and mother and all those deaths, those are part of my suffering, but it's not all of my suffering.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and his comfort was always very real there.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: And and I and I have a hard time, even though as a pastor and I preach and I talk to people all the time, I have a hard time really explaining it.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um it it is a comfort and it is a piece that that the scriptures say that surpasses understanding, that it's just hard to wrap your mind around it, but just because it's hard to understand doesn't mean it's not there.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and and those those things have just been so real and they're very real early on in my life.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, or in my relationship with Christ, and so when my mom, because my mom had a huge struggle with me following Jesus.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, really?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: She had thought I was brainwashed, she thought I was part of a cult, um, and it was it was a lot of opposition from my mom.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: And and when that would come from her and that and in the different ways that it came, um, and I and I understand she just didn't understand.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we're we're immigrants in America, and now her son's been spending all his time in the church, reading his ancient book, like making these huge declarations of Jesus and the streets and doing all this stuff, feeding homeless people and all this crazy stuff.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: She's like, what has happened to my son?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: This is overnight.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_05: That's a good, that's a good way of looking at it.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_05: Just something she just is very new to her, right?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so like she had thought like he's in the cult or something, but but like it was just so real and um and tangible the the level of impact that Christ was having my life where I was like like I just need him.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so I have watched and and this is in no way trying to pedal stool myself or lift myself higher.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: This is what I'm about to say is to really lift up the ways of Jesus higher than anything else in this world.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: I have watched other people in my family who have experienced the exact same things I experienced growing up and our lives and our processing and dealing with it are radically different.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like the radically different marriages, radically different families like these two radically different ways of of outcomes coming from the same kind of scenarios and it's not in any way trying to put shame or or um put down anyone in my family but but I talk about with them honestly like the only difference between anything I'm experiencing in my family and anything else someone else is experiencing their family is literally what I was doing with Jesus in the midst of it.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_03: And how I was listening to Jesus.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_03: There's zero way that I would have ever been able to discover a that path unless Jesus was the one who was wiping out the leaves and showing me the path to follow that was his in the midst of all that suffering.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: And then along that like him bringing these men who have come alongside me and even to this day he's he's still bringing alongside me different men to come alongside me and help me and and it's just and it's a gift to kind of just sit and just say Lord direct me and he does and so so yeah like looking when I look back on my life I um people always tell me and because and I'm not even getting into the depths of it I'm always hearing people say like man you got you got a great story this is a very impactful thing.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: And what I always say in return is something I deeply mean and and I know it I didn't write it.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: The Lord wrote it and and he's creative and he's incredible in the way that he writes stories the very same way he's written stories with you and he's written stories with you and such different and diverse stories constantly even a lot of these people listening right now he's written these profound stories and you have to just allow yourself to live out and experience the story he's writing for you and in many ways enjoy it as best as you can and so you know part of the negative though you're about to say something Oh I was just gonna say it always makes me think of the verse the beauty from ashes like he he takes our ashes and makes beauty from it.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_04: And we were talking about this a little bit beforehand sometimes he doesn't most of the time we don't get the why to our suffering but I think that there's so much hope in Christ because of the redemption from our pain you know and and you know it doesn't make it any easier.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: No doesn't like like honestly when I was writing the the script for this like I even told my wife I was like man maybe I just started crying again I got a little emotional I was writing all that and um and I was writing some things for something I'm gonna be sharing on Sunday in my sermon.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_03: And it doesn't take away the pain it just really allow he allows me to to be able to process my pain differently where I don't have to keep running from it.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: Because following Jesus gives me an answer to my pain.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: It gives me it gives me a story to find my pain that it fits into it gives me a community to deal with my pain with and and then the Lord gives me his comfort in the midst of my pain.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: So like he doesn't take away that weight if anything he just gives me what I need to carry it.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so but those are those that's the that's the positive going back to that question of like what were some of the negative and positive things with your suffering some of the negative things quite honestly is that there's this nagging voice constantly in my mind of could this be it?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: Could this moment be it?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: And and there's a positive to that where I make the most of the moments where I don't get into arguments like when Kate and I we have problems in my mind I'm thinking this might be the last time and and so like like and and depending on the argument too I'm like this really might be the last time my wife's a black belt and so like the last time for you I gotta be careful.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_03: But like that nagging voice it is exhausting.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah and I that and that I know we're gonna jump into infertility but I think that hits everything that you go through on your journey is a nagging voice in the suffering.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_05: Even when you get pregnant it's the nagging voice it's is this gonna happen again, right?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_03: So there's an interesting story in Peter Peter Pan has a very interesting concept that's that's so deep it's so it's like why'd you put this in here for children?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: So Captain Hook he's always hearing the the clock ticking of the alligator and the TikTok that that that's the noise and I think there's a line somewhere in the original writing of Peter Pan where it's him the TikTok noise is is associated to the TikTok of life being done and how he's always hearing the TikTok and that's what drives him mad.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so like there's that that tick tock of like time always ticking that that's the exhausting piece of what I've grown up with and dealt with where it's only it's only through Jesus that that TikTok doesn't drive you mad.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: Because Jesus gives you an answer to that TikTok because when I hear it like so like this past Saturday we were at Disney having an amazing time and I'm like taking pictures I'm trying to like freeze moments and then like I got into a little moment of sorrow because we had this beautiful moment and then immediately my mind thought this can all go away right now.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: And then I had an answer in that moment like there was there was an answer to that TikTok of like yeah but then but there's something else beyond this world so this wouldn't be it.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: If something happened right now there's something beyond this world so I'll be able to still be present with my children and enjoy this.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so not having Christ not having the answers of scripture make the TikTok all you got.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what's deals with the the maddening that you kind of experience so but this podcast is not about that.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so we only go deeper into that um I love it.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_05: I think it is I think I think a lot of us are dealing with the TikToks I mean it's a TikTok on your own life on an unborn baby's life on a baby you haven't even conceived yet on your own children and Jesus is there to quiet it like it's through his word that you should not be anxious but thankful for everything.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_05: You know it's all it's all there.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_05: You just pick that up and you look and like it's it's I just love what you said.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_05: It's just your path you go left or you go right.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_05: And I I do think that a lot of the grief that you've dealt with is parallel um to infertility and a sense that's why it kind of all goes hand in hand and there's a common denominator for the answer.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so like um I think for for a lot of people listening right now I know like even just hearing some of the things of my story it's almost like people start to pity you and they give you that like oh I feel so bad for you kind of look and um and what I've learned is to not pity people who who suffer or go through challenging things.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: What what I've learned is really to to kind of look at that person and be able to say man what what is God writing in your story and what is he doing?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: Because because the good things are allowed by him but also the bad things are allowed by him as well.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: He is he's sovereign and I think we'll um a little bit towards the end of this we're we're gonna be able to get a little bit deeper into that concept and and Whitney alluded to it.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_03: But like he's creative and he writes different stories and it's easy to look at other people's stories and and almost have a little bit of jealousy and comparison and and when we do that we then rob ourselves.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: I think when we start comparing our stories and start pointing fingers about what about that person you never give yourself the space to actually let what God's writing with you actually manifest itself in you.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: And um and that was an issue with with everybody in the scriptures that's an issue of all people we're constantly uh looking across the dinner table to see what they got versus what I got and God's like just eat what I put in front of you.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_04: Well that's been a big thread through a lot of the the guests that we've had on the podcast so far is I think one of the hard parts of infertility is like you watch everybody pass you by.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_04: You know you watch everyone have these beautiful families and these beautiful children and you're like why why can I not have a child you know and I struggled with that profoundly and so it's it's a murky place to get caught into but I feel like for me it was just reframing and there wasn't a lot that I could offer to God in my season of suffering with infertility.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_04: But one thing I was able to offer him was my suffering you know when the lady comes to church and she gives her last penny it was like it was my last penny.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_03: It was like God I don't have anything left like this is all I have but I'm giving it to you and I pray that like you will redeem me through my suffering and he did I feel like through your story through all of our stories like I'm so blessed and so grateful that God does use us you know and I I had a a very wise man once tell me because I was like complaining because it was it was a a point in time when I was single I'm like man bro everybody keeps meeting someone this guy just met this guy and I was like kind of like griping about not being able to meet someone and and um and he said he said he's he said such small words but it was really helpful he said that's just not your story that's their story.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: Focus on your story and what God's trying to make do in your story.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: And and I think there's a lot of a lot of valuable truth because I know a lot of people listening right now like like exactly what he said you're not you may not be experiencing the pregnancies you desire while you're watching everyone around you experience pregnancies, maybe even other family members, neighbors or friends.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: And if you become obsessed with the parts of your story you don't have yet, you then can't weep with those who weep or even celebrate with those who celebrate.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_03: You can't be a good friend or a good family member because you're so worried about having someone else's story.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_03: But there's many stories even in scripture of that like I think of Peter him looking at John's story and be like why does he not have to suffer like I have to suffer at the end of John the Gospel of John It's human nature.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_03: Trevor Burrus Yeah it's it's a part of all of us and so there's grace in there and God's kind enough to walk with us in that and not even shame us for it.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: He's willing to be patient with us in the midst of it.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_04: There is such a profound um scene in the chosen and I think it's Peter and Peter goes to Jesus it's not Peter it's James I think James yes yes yes the fiction which so everybody knows James really didn't have that ailment.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: Oh he didn't it was just something they made up it was little James okay it's a part they made up button yes but what he says to but the character in the fictional story says to little James it's pretty amazing I know exactly what you're about to say because there's been moments where I'm watching I'm like man I wish I can quote that because that's so good.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_04: No it's if you haven't watched The Chosen you have to go back and watch it or maybe just find a clip on YouTube or maybe we can link it.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_04: But little James goes to Jesus and is like why like why am I suffering and as I'm following you I am your disciple you are healing all of these people and I want to be healed you know like why don't you heal me and no not even just that he even said you sent me to go heal people.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_04: Oh yes and I can't heal myself right yeah and so then Jesus just says because you can handle it because my story for you is so much greater and your healing is coming and it's just not yet oh and that like hit me between the eyes when I watched that so I didn't know that was fictitious but it's pretty you chose and and the reason why it's powerful is because it's still true.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah and I think what there's a peace that comes when you really just settle with I have a story that God's writing for me.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so everything's not random everything is not just by chance like the Lord has ordained a story and my story is going to involve some hard things.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so that that even just saying it right now makes me think of okay what's what's on the other side of the corner?
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know but here's what I do know I know who's there.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_03: God's going to be there.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: The same God who's here right now with me when right now I'm in a season of massive celebration with my family everything feels beautiful is going to be the same God who's there with me on the other side of the corner when there's going to be something that hits us that I wasn't looking for that I wasn't expecting and hurts deeply I know the Lord's going to be there with me.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I can only say that with confidence because he's been there with me in those valleys in the past.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so and I've seen him do it for so many different people.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_03: But let's get into the aspect of my story I think is really relevant for this podcast and the listeners.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_04: Because I keep talking about that for days uh quite honestly and I think the intertwines with this do you want to get into well I think it parlays well into like you're talking about what's around the corner you know our God is a god of hills and valleys you know you experienced all of these deaths of your family at such a young age but then you and your wife Kate got married and then you had two beautiful children and then she got cancer.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_04: And so it doesn't stop right for any of us, right?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_04: Like I mean there's always hills and valleys.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_04: So do you want to talk or take us through kind of after Kate gets cancer and kind of like your process of wanting another child.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah so Kate she's she's one of those those women who her dream growing up was to be a mother and um and she just always wanted to be a mom wanted to be a stay-home mom.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_03: She would pretend like for when it was like career day or whatever, it's like I'm gonna be a stay-home mom.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_03: Like that was just her a huge heart uh a huge part of her heart and so when we had two boys like we were just so blessed.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_05: I'll just pause you real quick because guys before we started airing this guy has met the love of his life okay that they are like they were meant they were destined to be together to living kind of the same but parallel lives till they they finally met and they were married in five months like it was such a God thing.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_05: And so he's not just married to cute little Kate he is married to like the love of his life.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: Okay so sorry go on she's she is absolutely amazing.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_03: And like I the way I always say and the way I told you Lays beforehand one of the ways I know God's real is because of the wife I have.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: Beautiful and and just the way that we were able to just have our timelines intertwine with each other.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_04: Well I heard on a a podcast not too long ago it was the one that we were talking about that your wife is either your lid or your launch pad.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: Dang.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_04: And Kate was your launch pad.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah we we got married five months after we met and so I was like I gotta marry her as fast as I can.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah yeah I was and so but so she is absolutely incredible.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: And um and so when when we had our two boys long story real long story pretty amazing story too long story short we discovered she had cancer they believed that cancer had been growing her for close to six years.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_04: Breast cancer?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: No no no not breast cancer it was it was thyroid cancer but also literally covering the entirety of her neck and even going down her esophagus.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was a scary time but just trying to shorten that story up because um I want to get to the rest of this that really is relevant to your podcast the treatment of her of her cancer meant that we were going to have to wait a very long time for us to be able to try and have a third.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_03: And she always wanted to have three or more kids.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_04: And um question for you did you think about freezing her eggs like before she did chemo treatment?
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: She probably did I didn't even think about that stuff at all.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was um yeah she she probably thought about that.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_04: But regardless after chemo there's like a set amount of time that you have to wait.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_04: Is it like a year?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah okay and so um the egg freezing didn't come up at all um or maybe it didn't I wasn't paying attention I feel so bad right now just thinking about it.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_03: But uh so we had to wait this extended period of time before we could try and conceive and and we waited I think double that time.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_06: Okay.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: And and then um there was still a lot of fear of what could happen if she gets pregnant.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: And then sure enough she was pregnant and we were incredibly excited about it and just like wow this is it like her body isn't you know gonna have these complications and then sure enough uh within a few weeks of her being pregnant she had something called a chemical pregnancy.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure everyone listening knows those things better than I do.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_03: But basically we we lost the baby um within a few weeks and it seemed small like whenever I I would always hear people describe that um it was always like yeah in my back of my mind I was like well at least you didn't really know the baby not that big of a deal but experiencing it I f I feel like I realized what a big deal that was the level of deflation the level of lost hope.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so when that took place, you know my wife was obviously crushed I was crushed too.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_03: But then after a few months she was pregnant again and and that was exciting but we were also very nervous at the same exact time.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I was actually really reserved with my excitement because I I saw how how crushed she was when we had that first that first baby be lost but also like I don't know I just didn't know how to enter into celebration mode.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: And um and so but my wife it was interesting uh because my wife her her outlook with it was very different than mine because I didn't want to really tell anybody I I didn't want to tell I just wanted to keep it to us until we we knew for sure we were going to have this baby which is a funny thing because it's like when do you really know for sure?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_03: And um and so but but she was just kind of like she said something I thought there was a lot of wisdom to it um she has said listen we need to tell people because how will people know how will the people that are close to us know how to care for us if something does go wrong.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: And my wife's a very wise woman and she understood that if something does go wrong we're gonna need community we're gonna need people who can come alongside us.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna need to be lifted up and in my mind I'm like I don't want to deal with all the pity again.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah and I don't want to deal with the the conversations again but and so we started telling people um and then after a month we were able to tell more people and after two months and after three months we the excitement just started bubbling up even more and then what what happened in our situation with um with that pregnancy was we got to a point where we felt confident enough to take our two other sons to an ultrasound.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: And um and while the nurse was was uh rubbing the the machine on my wife's belly I had my two other sons on my lap and I had my phone because I was getting ready to record their reaction and I was super excited.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: And um and it's like a silly video of me being like oh here we are and all this stupid stuff and um and then I noticed that the nurse she had like a shock look on her face and um and when I noticed that immediately I turned my phone off and my wife got nervous immediately and anxiously she just asked the nurse like what happened what's going on and the nurse didn't know how to answer us.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so so I took my two boys and we just left the room which which was hard to like you wanted to be there for her but you didn't want that exposure.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so long story short of that we ended up losing that baby and and that was extremely challenging.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_05: That was how that was like what 12 weeks?
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_03: I think about that I I was trying to figure out how how how far along we were the other day when I was writing this and but my wife and I really just don't remember how long it was and what was what was crazy about all of that was that in it there was a level of excitement because we know that she could get pregnant but there was also this this wonder of like should she keep trying if we've just lost a second child and so so the grief was um was really hard but but also for me it was it was really confusing um what I was feeling because I immediately went into what does Kate need how do I care for her like how do I now explain this to my boys how does like how do we now explain this to our family?
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: How do we explain this to the coworkers at church I even one of my staff meetings like we had made this big hoopla about me about us getting pregnant with a second baby and like legitimate confetti canon.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_03: We threw it up and everybody now I had to go back into my office and and deal with like the sadness and all this stuff.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's hard but um but my wife was right she was right and and we'll talk more about that in a second as she always is right um and and so I I mean she makes good choices but and um and I'm one of those choices.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_03: And so uh but uh what what made it really hard was like it was again that what I grew up in um this Decisions and distractions.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_03: And it was in that season of dealing that when I look back on it, that's what I kind of like went to making decisions and being distracted instead of actually coping and dealing with the suffering and with what was happening within myself.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like I was doing all this work to try and help Kate deal with it.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: I was doing all this work to try and help my boys deal with it, but I was so distracted that I wasn't dealing with it within myself.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_03: And and that in itself was really um hard down the road, but not in the moment.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_05: Mm-hmm.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_05: That makes sense.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_05: And and and I just thinking how many I would say 98% of men probably do the same thing.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_05: I mean they're they're being there.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_05: How can I make my wife feel better?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_05: What can I do if you have other children?
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_05: Or how can I make my parents feel better?
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_05: And now that you've told everybody, you're almost being there for the whole community and never believing you need to heal.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_03: But there's something uh about it that for me personally made it a little bit easier uh to be distracted and to be consumed with decisions in the moment.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_03: Uh because we had told everybody about the pregnancy in our in our in our deep excitement, and because I'm a pastor, and I was a pastor at that point too, and I was a pastor that had just my wife just had recovered from cancer.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_03: So like there was already all this attention to that suffering.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_03: And then just a little bit over a year later, a year and a half or more later, we're now dealing with the loss of a baby.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_03: As a pastor, it's actually it's it's something really special and and significant, uh, but at the same time really hard.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_03: When you suffer, you suffer with an audience.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_03: And that makes it a little bit difficult because as a pastor, the people that are in your church, they love you and they care for you and and they want to be present.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that that kind of care, like the meals, the cards, the conversations, the having to retell the story, all that stuff, it made it super easy for me to constantly be distracted and not sit in what I was feeling and not sit in what I was having to recover from and not sit in my own personal deflation.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_03: So it made it super simple for me to busy myself with everybody else.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_03: And again, the care is a gift.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's a tremendous gift, and I don't overlook it or even ever want to speak down on it.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_03: But it from my personality type of my ability to want to distract myself and want to get stuck in decisions and not deal with my pain, um, it was just so easy to do that.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_03: And and then it wasn't until maybe like a few months after our that second baby uh passed away that we went to a restaurant.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_03: And when we went to this restaurant, the when the waitress asked the hostess asked us, asked us, um, how large is our party.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_03: And when I said we have a party of four, even though my boys were literally wrestling on the f on the floor and yelling and doing all this stuff, um, and we're like, come on, man.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um but like when I said party of four, there was something about that moment when it hit me, well, we should be a party of five.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and it was something that was it was such a simple, it was a small little question, a little ordinary moment, that for for just that split second, it was almost like I wait a second, like something's deeply wrong.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_03: It was almost like I was like so distracted and worrying about Kate, so distracted and worried about my boys, so distracted about dealing with all of the care from our church that I didn't get a chance to really whoa, this is this is big.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: This is this is so much more than that moment.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_03: This extends for so much further after my life.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: And it feels like almost immature, even bringing that moment up.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_05: But it was just like No, I and I think sometimes, you know, that's how God talks to us is in ordinary.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_05: Ordinary's been coming up a lot for me this week for some reason.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_05: It keeps just surfacing, but ordinary moments are can be life-changing too, or life-supporting, or life-telling.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_05: And that was just an ordinary moment of a man that said, Wow, didn't realize how much I wanted this baby.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_05: I wanted a family of five too, not just Kate, but I did too.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_05: So did you say something to Kate after that like moment or you just I didn't ruin the meal?
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, or do you remember?
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um isn't that how grief works though?
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_04: Like it just hit it's like a tidal wave.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_04: Like you don't, you're not expecting it, and then it just kind of like it like takes over and you're like, whoa.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_04: So do you feel like once you recognized the grief, you were like, okay, now I have to deal with it, or were you just kind of surprised and you had to sit with it to try to figure what it was for a little bit?
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um I I had to sit and go into a season of realizing um the depths of the deflation.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_03: Because so when when our baby died, um even saying that's just so eerie.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_03: But when our baby died, um he the baby, um, we don't know if it was a boy or grown up, but died inside my wife.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was a physical connection that she had with the baby.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was a a deeper wound and an immediate wound for her.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_03: What died for me was an aspiration and a hope for a future.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_03: And it was it was uh an emotional thought that died for me in the moment, like personally, not trying to diminish the life of that child at all, but there wasn't the same level of connection.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so it almost feels like um I had to be further along to really feel the full weight of that death or my wife in the moment.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_03: Because I mean, as many of your listeners know, when when the baby dies, there's like uh an immediate process of all these conversations with doctors, all these different things you have to horrible things that you have to endure.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_03: Where for me, it was just like I was a little bit more removed physically from that.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so um so yeah, that moment in the restaurant, it feel it does feel silly like every time I even think about it, but it was like, wait, this is so much bigger than just something that we just skipped over.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I think and I think a lot of men, um, that could really resonate with them.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because a lot of men like me just really gets busy when they're when they're hurting.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_03: And um some of that's intentional, but also some of that is really just not knowing how to how to process and deal with their pain.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_04: So do you feel like after going through that experience, did it change the way that you counseled men?
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_04: Because I know we had talked previously that obviously it's something that comes up when you talk to men, like if their wife is experiencing something like this.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_04: So did you did it change the way that you process with the individual?
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, big time.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I mean, like even in our church, like it feels like maybe four or five months ago, like we dealt with like a tidal wave of these kind of things.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_05: And it was it was really hard because we would do baby dedications and then you're on stage and and I can look at like pre-families in our auditorium, which is that's not that's like a the totally being a pastor knowing your counseling and then have never even waited.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_05: Never even thought about it.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there was there was one Sunday where like two couples that don't know each other were sitting in the same row.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_05: No way.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm preaching, and I'm like, you guys, and in my mind I'm like, you guys don't know each other.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_03: Because our our author is uh fairly large, but I'm like, you guys don't know each other, but you are literally carrying the same thing.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so like I stopped looking at them because I was like there's such a part of me I want to be like, guys, talk to each other.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_03: But uh but yeah, so like when it comes to counseling men with this, for me personally, like what I've learned is uh the value of patience with men and and really understanding that you have to be patient with how you help guys kind of deal with this.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_03: Men need a lot of patience.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I think for the wives listening too, you've got to understand that um you're a lot of husbands, I gotta be careful because I know a lot of husbands who are better with processing their feelings and others, but the majority of the ones that I speak to really don't understand how they're feeling about what they're going through.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_03: And it takes time.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so, like, what I've learned with a lot of men is not just asking you how you're doing and then settling with the answer you give me in the moment, but I've learned to be able to come back a month or two later and be like, hey man, how are you doing now?
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_03: How you feeling?
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I even put reminders on my phone to kind of like alert me to be like, hey, reach out to so-and-so um to check in on how they're doing with what they lost uh a year a month ago or two months ago, even sometimes a year ago.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_03: And it's because it it just takes a little longer for the feelings and the emotion to surface in their hearts.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_03: And just because it hasn't surfaced in time, it doesn't mean they're dumb and it doesn't mean they're numb.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_03: It just it just means that's for a lot of people it takes longer.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_03: So that patience is crucial.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I've just learned that there's not like the best words to say, there's just the need to be able to communicate that that door is gonna be open.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_06: To the husband.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the door the door is gonna be open a month from now to talk about it.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and I know sometimes I could be a little annoying when I come up to guys and be like, you're like five months out and be like, hey man, how you doing with this?
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but at the same time, I'd rather be annoying than being a bad shepherd uh to people who are going through those things and carrying that.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so the only reason why I even know that is because that's what a lot of men did in my life.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_03: I got some really good men that were in my life in that season who were checking on me months out.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and I know, I know they put reminders on their phone because they would they always reached out to me on the same days.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, and so they all had the same tenants.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um but it was and so like it that's not even something I created on my own.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_03: It was just something that I learned from how I was cared for in those seasons, and so just replicating that to the other minimum around.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so um yeah, but but I I think there's a lot of value in understanding that not all people process grief the same way.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so patience is so important when it comes to dealing people with grief.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_05: I'm trying to think from a husband's perspective, definitely just to our listeners, it's okay if he's not feeling the depth of loss you're feeling at the same time that really men do process it a little bit differently.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_05: Number one, because it's not in their physical body.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_05: And number two, you're like protective, and so you're distracting from what you're truly feeling.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_05: And um check in, but don't be mad, right?
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_05: Like don't let it be a marital among a marital issue.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_05: And I know that it a lot of people have marital issues going through infertility or losses because you're not grieving it the same way.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_05: Whether even if you're male or female, just as you said, your whole family during all those losses were kind of going in different directions.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_05: What would be your biggest advice to like a couple maybe that wasn't on the same page and they're struggling with some of these communication or just like not being on the same page at the same time, getting through this so it doesn't ruin their marriage.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_03: I know most of your listeners are women.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_03: Is that yeah.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um I know there's not a lot of guys like, I wonder what the next episode's ability podcast.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_05: Let's jump.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I don't think they're high on maybe our husbands.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_03: Working out of the gym.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_05: He still promises me he'll listen to a full.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_03: If there's a guy listening, I know I know you're listening because the wife was like, Yeah, this guy has a beard and uh he's on the podcast.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_03: I want you to listen to um and so I think I think you know you're what you're asking is valid valuable, like practically, like what can you do?
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_03: Because because the weight of this kind of suffering, what suffering does, suffering does uh very similar to what money does.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_03: Uh what uh when you get a lot of money, it doesn't make you something different, it just exposes who you are.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_03: The same is true of suffering.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_03: When you get a lot of suffering, it doesn't make you something different, it just exposes what's in you already.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_03: And um almost like like weight, like if you get under a squat rack for the one guy who's listening, may maybe Lane who's listening right now.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_03: When you get under the weight rack, um, it exposes the pains and other areas and the weak spots that you have.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so a lot of times this kind of suffering of losing a child, it'll expose all the different cracks that you had in your marriage that you just weren't aware of.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so so I think um it's not necessarily that it's leading you towards divorce, it's just exposing all the things that were already leading you to that.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think for for men, uh well, I would my advice to men as they care for their wives in the season, take that posture of caring is super crucial.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_03: And and I always brought the to the to guys three different things.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_03: And it's funny, the three different things are three different things to be.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_03: And so one is be present, like let your presence be felt in those seasons.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, if your wife is needs touch, hug her, embrace her, be present with her as long as she needs, and then there's also be practical, like really look at what are the practical needs that you can meet for her.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I not everybody's home is the same, but in my home, the practical needs was me figuring out dinner for my boys.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_03: So we ate peanut butter and jellies for a long time uh and burnt things for a long time.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_03: And not only being practical, but also being honest for men, that's huge.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's important to understand that we have to be honest not just with uh what we're feeling, but we also have to be honest with what we don't know how we feel.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like I just don't even know how I'm feeling, but um, I don't know what's going on.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_03: I really haven't gotten there yet.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's an okay statement uh versus just retreating and removing.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so for women, I would say um, first of all, I think women sh should never feel like they have to take on the full responsibility of helping their husband heal.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh a woman who is going through this herself is grieving through something, as all these listeners know, something that is just so I don't even know how to explain it, to lose something that's inside of you that's actually part of you.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_03: That is just wild.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_03: So you lose the you're having the deflation about the future and the pain.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_03: There's just so many different things that uh women go through.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm not anyway saying a woman should take on now the responsibility of helping a husband heal from his grief.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but there is incredible value in understanding what are some of the the better routes to take in that season.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so so these are just four things I just kind of always list out whenever I speak to women in our church, and just four things that I've seen and observed, and honestly, not trying to in any way continue to pedestal my wife as she deserves to always be pedestaled, but these are four things that my wife did.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_03: That was incredibly valuable.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um the first thing is asking, asking without demanding an immediate answer, like uh asking questions like how you're doing, without expecting like immediately to get a full packaged, uh perfectly worded understanding for how your husband's doing.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of a lot of men just can't do that.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so so not you could put the question out there knowing that it might take some time to get the answer to it.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the second thing I think is important, especially for women, is to clearly tell your husband what it is that you need.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_03: That was something Kate did really well.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, she always made it very clear, and uh, because I need as things as clear as possible.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_03: She would tell me I need people, I need other people to know.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_03: I need I need a meal train.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_03: I need that.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_03: One, because our kids are starving with these peanut butter and jellies.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_03: But also I I need to be able to see people from our church come and say hi to us.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so uh, but saying what you need clearly is important um because a lot of husbands want to help, they just don't really know how to.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the third thing is to make room for grief that looks different.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_03: You the very same way that you and your husband don't laugh at the same things, the very same way you don't have the same love language is the very same way that you don't grieve the same way.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so a lot of time resentment could be built where it's like, oh, you're not even crying, you're not even losing sleep about this, you're not even, you know, all these different things, where it's just like maybe he just grieves differently.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_03: He's lost a child too.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so don't put this expectation of what grief is supposed to look like for him, because that's on that's not fair, first of all.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_03: And then second of all, it doesn't help anything.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_03: At least it would help him grieve because you're trying to put guilt on them on top of that.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes that is done knowingly, and sometimes it's done unknowingly.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_03: But um, and I think the the fourth one, it was something that that I just experienced it, but also a lot of people did it.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes uh this the wife has to lead the way with this is to find a way to remember the baby together.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um one of the things that I was instructed on by one of my mentors was hey, put put this on your calendar, on put on the calendar the due date of the baby, and put on the calendar for next year, the day that the baby um died.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that was a helpful way for me to to lead the way with um with you know being mindful of my wife's emotions and feelings leading up to it.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_03: But creating practical ways for you to remember the baby together is just so valuable for coming to the children.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_05: That's a great yeah.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there was there's a uh another pastor friend of mine, he lost his baby.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um the baby was born, it was a stillborn baby.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_03: Devastating situation.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_03: And then what they did was um to remember the baby on the baby's birthday, they get crispy cream donuts with their children.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_03: And then everyone else in our church, we did it on their birthday too.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_03: And we're 11 years out, and still on on baby Dakota's birthday, uh, we all get crispy cream and we send pictures to the family.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_03: And it does something special because it keeps the baby's life going.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it honors them, but it also gives a space for processing and grief.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and so and and it's it's just beautiful, but like I think to find ways to remember the baby together are are really important.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_03: Now, for some reason, I just got a thought of a woman saying, Oh, I wish I would have written that down.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_03: So let me go ahead and say to them again.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_03: Ask without demanding an immediate answer.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_03: Tell each other what you need, tell your man what he needs pro what you need practically, make room for grief that looks different, and then find a way to remember uh the baby together.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_04: So, what do you guys do for the ones that you've lost?
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_04: Do you have anything special, crispy cream donuts kind of thing?
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_03: No, our our family, it was almost like once once we moved on beyond that year, not saying we buried it, but it didn't feel like it had to keep coming up.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so because um maybe like six months after um we lost the second baby, she was pregnant with our third.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so what we did was to honor our um our our our baby boy Azariah, his name it bears the reminder.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_03: Because the word Azariah means God has helped.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so Kate, she chose that name.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_05: So that's the honor.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, to to remember that God has helped us with this child.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_03: We have this little we have this plaque, and and it was it's really sweet now because Azariah, our baby, he's uh he's he's five years old.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_03: He points at that and he's like, he says it.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_03: He's like, two babies died before I was born.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_03: And so his little heart understands the miracle of what his life is.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_03: And my other sons understand a miracle because of that that one plaque that we have hanging uh in their bedroom.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_03: And it's morbid, but at the same time, it's actually beautiful.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, you say his name every day.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_04: That's a really cool way of honoring.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I love names, obviously, with my children.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like there's so much deep meaning there.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_04: Shepherd is the same age as Azariah.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_04: They went to school together, and Shepard means God provides.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_04: And so every time I say his name, it's like it just brings you back, right, to what the Lord has done.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_04: So that's so special.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_05: And is there any other thing that you advise you want to give?
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_03: But I would love to really close talking about suffering for a little bit.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, because I know that this is a podcast primarily for people who are suffering, and just some of the the big concepts that for me personally um have been deeply helpful in getting over and understanding suffering.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_04: More of like the your theological basis for suffering.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_04: Do you feel like it changed over the years of as you experience different types of suffering?
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like what what's happened for me over the years is there's been a maturing um to my to my understanding of how God works and a comfort with with understanding how real he is and how much he loves me.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_03: And that allows me the to to almost like be able to to pallet or take in some of the sufferings that I've had to take in, because I know as bad as the medicine has been, as bad as it tastes, I know that there's some value to it, what he's trying to do.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_03: And so um, so one of the big things for me, um, you know, I've as a pastor, um I I know this about God is that God He understands that it's really hard for us to understand uh what He's doing.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_03: And there's there's a high level of grace and kindness uh that comes from God when we struggle with the suffering that he's placed before us.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so for for Many of the listeners who are listening, and you have struggled with your faith, you've struggled with your walk with God and your understanding of who He is, that struggle doesn't intimidate Him, that struggle doesn't rattle him, that struggle doesn't even push him away.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, He's not done with you with it.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_03: He understands that it's hard for us to understand.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_03: And um, for me, you know, there's this one question that I think always comes up, which I think is a it's a great question for Christians to take it serious.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I know it's a question that has led a lot of people to actually walk away from God altogether, but it's a good question and it deserves attention, is that question of if there's suffering and evil in this world, how could there be a God?
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_03: How could there be a God that allows suffering and evil in this world?
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_03: And that is God.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that is a question that matters.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_03: And there's so much great writing and so much great thinking on that question that I always encourage people to kind of drill deeper on and grow in.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_03: But I think when people are suffering or in the middle and seasons of suffering, that very good question is not the best question.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_03: The best question to wrestle with is the ultimate question that God was coming to Job with in the Old Testament.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so Job in the Old Testament experiences all this suffering.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_03: Part of his suffering that he experienced was the loss of his children.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_03: He literally lost children.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_03: And and the grief and suffering of that, then he has friends come and join alongside him to help him understand why he's going through all this suffering.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_03: And they're trying to explain the suffering of the world that Job is dealing with.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_03: And they gave him all these different explanations that are not good.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_04: Well, they said curse God and die, right?
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_03: Well, the scriptures condemn it.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_03: His wife said that.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_03: And um and so she was the lid.
• 1:07:49
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_03: And and and I mean, she lost all these kids too.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_03: She lost kids, property, but and um and and in many ways she kind of lost a husband too, because of what what he had gone through.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_03: But so all that to say, um, God then comes to Job in the end, and God answers the the biggest question that we should be dealing with when we're suffering.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_03: God answers this question that I'm gonna get to in just a second, with a series of questions.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_03: And that there's a brilliance to that, to that, because what God does is he, with his series of questions, he really goes after the greater question that should be in our heart when we're suffering.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_03: Is God real and can I trust him?
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_03: And God gets after that by giving him a series of questions that speak towards God's involvement in creation, God's wisdom, God's power, and God's love that goes ahead.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_03: And when you answer all those questions, you come out with the ultimate answer of, I know God is real and I can trust him.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_03: That is the question that we need to really grapple with when we're suffering.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_03: And so my seasons of suffering, like I I've literally had have had moments where, okay, how do I know he's real?
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_03: How do I know I can trust him?
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_03: And that gives me the fuel and the motivation to be able to withstand the suffering that I go through.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the big things, too, um, with this is that I also know that the God of Scripture is not a God who is numb to pain.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_03: He grieves with his people.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_03: In John chapter 11, uh, there's this very famous story when Lazarus dies.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus comes onto the scene, it's in the chosen.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and but Jesus comes onto the scene, and when he comes onto the scene of this death, he sees all the grief, he sees all the pain, and he knows, first of all, he knows heaven is real.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_03: So he knows Lazarus is in heaven.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_03: He knows what he himself is gonna do because even before going there, he tells the apostles that he was gonna raise him back up.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_03: He knows what's about to happen, but yet Jesus enters into the suffering in such a way that the scriptures say that he weeps with that.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I remember that.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_03: He weeps.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_03: What does that say about Jesus?
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_03: So he's not numb to our pain.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_03: So it's not like he's looking at a suffering and numb to it.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_03: If anything, he enters into it.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_03: The very same way the Father uh enters into the suffering of Job.
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_03: He enters into the suffering and deals with it with Job by asking these questions that will give him the answer that will then lead to what can help him in the midst of his suffering.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_03: But I think what's so profound about all of it is that we're following a God who understands suffering.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus Christ himself endured suffering, he endured pain, he endured affliction, he knows what it's like to suffer, and he rose from the grave.
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_03: So that even the resurrection, it gives me a level of confidence where here's what I know.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna one day dance with my mom again.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm gonna one day sit across from her and say stupid stories again.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_03: One day I'm gonna have these two random people that don't know what they look like, but they'll be my children and I will see them on the other side.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like this world isn't it.
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_03: This is not the final one.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_03: And why do I know this world's not it?
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_03: Because Jesus went beyond this world, died, went to eternity, and came back to show us that there was something beyond this world.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that concept in itself, it gives me an answer to maybe not the tick of how fast life goes, but the tick of my suffering, that tick, tick, tick of the suffering.
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_03: I got an answer to that.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_03: One day I'm gonna see my Awela again.
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_03: And me and my Awila, we're gonna have a fun time making fun of people and really enjoying uh some great, some great food that hopefully she'll make for me eternity.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_05: But the beauty of that She'll be adding chairs this time, not taking them away.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think about a lot.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_03: When I think about her, I just think of the joy is gonna be to dance with her again and and be able to um tell her some of the stories of of my life.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's there's a beauty to what Jesus gives us where the the joy is not found in having an answer as to why I'm going through this.
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_03: I never got an answer.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_03: We never got answers as to why we lost those two babies.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_03: I've never got an answer to why I've lost all these people in my life.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_03: But the answer, that's not the answer I've needed.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_03: The answer I've needed is, is God real and can I trust him even in the midst of it?
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_03: And so as we're getting ready to wrap up this podcast, I think it's important to understand that the suffering and evil of this world, it's not evidence that God's not real.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_03: The suffering and evil of this world is evidence of our need for God.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_03: I need him because this world is broken.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_03: I need him because there's suffering in this world.
• 1:12:28
  SPEAKER_03: And what happens a lot of times when people give up on Jesus because they're suffering, what takes place in that in a lot of ways, that's like giving up on medicine because you got sick.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_03: The medicine is gonna be what actually helps you get out of your suffering.
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_03: So if I give up on Jesus because now I'm going through a hard thing, I'm giving up on what's actually gonna sustain me in this hard thing.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's not about giving up on Jesus, it's about clinging to Jesus when those storms come.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's a story that I think about constantly.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's a story that actually we have literally based our entire podcast, faith that stands off of it.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_03: And that's not a shameless plug, but it's it's to plug away.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_03: No, but like in Matthew 14, famous story, it's in the chosen as well.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_03: Peter walks on water.
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_03: That famous story, and that story is really interesting because it has so many different layers to it that don't get seen on the surface.
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus is on standing on the water, Peter's in the boat.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_03: There's a massive storm all around them.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_03: The storm is threatening their lives, the storm is threatening their boat, they're freaking out, it's frantic, and Jesus is on the on the water, and Peter says, Can I come to you?
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_03: And so Peter has enough faith to walk on water.
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_03: He has sufficient faith to take a step and stand there.
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_03: And the scriptures say that yes, he had the faith in that moment, but in the very next step that he begins to look at the storm.
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_03: So he takes his eyes off Jesus and then he puts his eyes on the storm and gets distracted by his by the suffering, by the challenge.
• 1:13:59
  SPEAKER_03: By the fear, and then his faith drops, and then he sinks.
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_03: And in so many ways, that's what happens to a lot of us.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_03: The suffering forces us to take our causes us to take our eyes off Jesus and put it on the storm, and we get distracted from he's real, he's there, he's here to help me, I can trust him.
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_03: We put our eyes on the storm and then we begin to sink.
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_03: And what's so incredibly dynamic about that story is what happens to Peter when he sinks.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_03: When he sinks, what does Jesus do when he sinks?
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_05: He leaves him.
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_05: Does he call him the storm?
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_03: When he sinks, I'm not trying to put you guys out there.
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_05: I'm trying to remember just no, no, that's okay.
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_03: This is not a test at all.
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there's so many details in scripture that get missed.
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_03: He's sinking, and Jesus comes and catches him.
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_03: He grabs him.
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_03: Peter says, Lord, save me.
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sinking.
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like he says, Lord, save me.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_03: And Jesus grabs somebody who was struggling with their faith.
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus grabs somebody who put their eyes on the storm instead of him.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_03: That shows us that Jesus is not done with us when we're struggling.
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_03: And the way he gets into the boat, because the very next part of the story says, Jesus grabs him and then they get into the boat together.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_03: That means that Peter didn't start walking back on water.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_03: That means that Jesus had to carry him to the boat.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so what's beautiful of that is that we see the very heart of God, that God's heart for us when we struggle to understand, what's hard to understand and what he has is going through is not he's rejecting us.
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_03: He doesn't push Peter deeper into the water.
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_03: He doesn't yell out, Peter, what's wrong with you?
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_03: He goes and helps Peter and brings him then to the place of safety and then calms the storm and then challenges Peter's weak faith as a way of helping him because he loves him and wants good for his son.
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so for anyone who's listening to this podcast, like I don't want you to even listen to this in your painful season and feel a level of shame for struggling with something that's really hard.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_03: I want you to be listening to this and feel an invitation.
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_03: This is Jesus' invitation to you to take your eyes off that storm that you've been looking at and obsessing over and just contemplating constantly and bring your eyes to Jesus and fix your eyes on him so that you can then have a faith that can stand even in the midst of a storm because that's what he wants for you.
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_03: And he's going to help you do it.
• 1:16:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I think in a lot of ways, people have even tuned into this podcast, and it's God's invitation to them to it's Jesus almost like grabbing them out of the water and saying, just let me pick you up and pull you out of this.
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_03: That's how good he is, that's how kind he is, even when we're going through storms.
• 1:16:40
  SPEAKER_04: There's an amazing Tim Keller sermon on this story, and I I love it so much.
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_04: And it's really funny, not funny, but it's interesting because Tim Keller talks about that, talks about how Peter's eyes were like were taken off of Jesus, and he was looking at just what we look at, right?
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_04: The grief and the suffering and the hard parts of life, and he says, look away.
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_04: And so sometimes in my head, I'm like, look away, Whitney, look away.
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I have that in my head that I remember from that sermon that it's like, just fix your eyes on Jesus.
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_04: Like if you look back at Jesus, like our faith will be restored and he will sustain us.
• 1:17:17
  SPEAKER_03: And the thing about Jesus is he's not waiting for you to get your grief under control.
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_03: He wasn't there waiting for Peter to make the storm stop.
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_03: He was there to give Peter the ability to walk in the midst of the storm.
• 1:17:31
  SPEAKER_03: And um and I think that's where a lot of the listeners here sometimes we get a tainted view of Jesus where we just think he's always disappointed with us.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I I agree.
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_05: I think that's before I really had my faith, I was always so scared because I I always envisioned myself falling short.
• 1:17:48
  SPEAKER_05: Not not living up to like the perfect, and and that's not who Jesus is.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_05: He's gonna pull you out and meet you where you are in your suffering, no matter what.
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like think of what Jesus was doing while he was on the cross.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_03: They had just ripped his clothes off his body, threw dice to see who gets the biggest piece of his clothes.
• 1:18:08
  SPEAKER_03: They were ridiculing him, they were insulting him in all every angle, and his his cry was Father, forgive them.
• 1:18:15
  SPEAKER_03: And and that's that's the kind of Jesus that we see in scriptures who yells for forgiveness, but also challenges weak faith.
• 1:18:23
  SPEAKER_03: Because when he brought Peter back into the boat, he challenges what was wrong in the moment.
• 1:18:27
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 1:18:27
  SPEAKER_03: So he had little faith.
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_03: And the challenge is not to bring shame, the challenge is actually help.
• 1:18:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so, like in my struggles in my seasons of suffering, even my struggles in seasons of celebration, he challenges me, calls me to obedience, not because he's trying to hurt me, but he's actually trying to help me.
• 1:18:45
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and that's because the scriptures teach him to be a good father.
• 1:18:49
  SPEAKER_03: He's a good dad, and a good dad challenges.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_04: One thing theologically that I think really helped me when I was suffering is I was very surprised by my anger at God, and it felt sacrilegious.
• 1:19:00
  SPEAKER_04: But I think one thing that shifted my perspective was looking at Jesus as a father to a child, like, and I hadn't had children yet.
• 1:19:08
  SPEAKER_04: But if I had a child and they were angry at me, like you think that that is gonna deter my love for them because they're angry at me?
• 1:19:16
  SPEAKER_04: And even now, having children, it's kind of reinforced that idea of like, you know, one of my kids comes and they're like, Mom, I can't believe you.
• 1:19:23
  SPEAKER_04: I'm angry at you.
• 1:19:23
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, okay, let's talk about it.
• 1:19:25
  SPEAKER_04: You know, like I love them.
• 1:19:26
  SPEAKER_04: I I I invite, you know, their questions and their anger and all their feelings.
• 1:19:32
  SPEAKER_04: And and I, that's how I feel like in my suffering it shifted for me.
• 1:19:36
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I can't.
• 1:19:37
  SPEAKER_04: I can be mad at God and He can handle it and He wants it because He wants my authentic self.
• 1:19:42
  SPEAKER_04: He doesn't want my like e ooh ah ah, you know, like my rigid, like, oh well, I have to go to church on Sunday, and I just have to really box up that anger, you know, put it away.
• 1:19:53
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a huge difference between honest and being entitled.
• 1:19:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, like we we're welcome to be honest with him, be real.
• 1:19:59
  SPEAKER_03: The people of Scripture were honest with God.
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like Thomas, I'm doubting, I'm having a hard time, I need to see your hand, show me your hand.
• 1:20:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's all these pictures of honesty in people, and that never gets reprimanded.
• 1:20:11
  SPEAKER_03: But there's also pictures of entitlement and that always gets reprimanded.
• 1:20:15
  SPEAKER_03: But it gets representative.
• 1:20:16
  SPEAKER_04: In the sense of what do you mean entitlement?
• 1:20:18
  SPEAKER_04: Like you owe me an answer to the city.
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like you should have given me everything I want to go.
• 1:20:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like you shouldn't have made me go through suffering because I went to church on Easter.
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like I listened to this man's sermon and it was really bad, and I endured, I gave money.
• 1:20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_03: Like, like, why did I do it?
• 1:20:33
  SPEAKER_03: Why did I live in obedience?
• 1:20:34
  SPEAKER_03: Was it so that I can get was this living in obedience because I my faith, or was I living in obedience as a payment so I get an easy life?
• 1:20:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so um, like the greatest person who ever lived, Jesus, suffered immensely.
• 1:20:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so one of those things that I think this is where doctrine and theology really matter, and being a part of a good church really matters, where it's having a kind of understanding of scripture of I'm not entitled to anything.
• 1:20:59
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what makes the grace, that's what makes the love I receive from him, that's what makes his kindness so much more significant.
• 1:21:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so, but but I think for for people who are listening right now, um, I think it's important for you to sit and really ask the question why has God brought this to you?
• 1:21:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, he has brought this podcast to you and this conversation to you, because he's given you an invitation.
• 1:21:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's his invitation to keep your eyes on him, is his his invitation to not let go of the relationship that you have with him, but to enjoy it and to actually leverage it to help you walk on the water in the middle of the storm.
• 1:21:37
  SPEAKER_05: Amen.
• 1:21:38
  SPEAKER_05: And um just know that your story is not yet written, right?
• 1:21:45
  SPEAKER_05: Like, and I love that.
• 1:21:46
  SPEAKER_05: Take it away.
• 1:21:47
  SPEAKER_05: It's not someone else's story, it is your story that still is being written.
• 1:21:54
  SPEAKER_05: Love it.
• 1:22:02
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you so much for joining us on today's podcast.
• 1:22:06
  SPEAKER_04: If you have been impacted by this episode, there are two things you can do for us.
• 1:22:11
  SPEAKER_04: First is leave a review on Spotify or Apple Music, and second is to share this with a friend who is struggling.
• 1:22:19
  SPEAKER_04: This helps us to spread our message of hope for others.
• 1:22:23
  SPEAKER_04: If you would like to get in touch with Lindsay or myself, please message us on Instagram at Infertile Diaries Podcast, or you can go to our websites at Whitneyheneman.com, and everyone deserves a family grants.com.