Latest / Project Podcast / How to manage menopause in the workplace

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How to manage menopause in the workplace · Project Podcast

0:09
Welcome to the APM Podcast. AM is the chartered body for the
0:12
project profession. My name is Emma De Vita and I'm
0:15
the editor of Project APM's Quarterly Journal and your host
0:19
in this podcast. I'm speaking to three women
0:21
about menopause in the workplace, specifically working
0:24
in projects with me a 2 project professionals, Rachel Jackson, a
0:28
lead planet, Anglo American, and Joe Roberts, Head of Strategy at
0:32
the Department for Transport's. Also joining us is Ali Dilkes, a
0:36
nurse specialising in menopause. We'll be sharing experiences and
0:40
advice for everyone who wants to find out how to best deal with
0:43
being menopausal and how to best support a colleague who might be
0:46
experiencing this. Dalton 2023 issue of APM's
0:50
Project Journal also covers this topic, so please do make sure
0:54
you grab a copy. Welcome everyone.
0:59
Thanks for joining me. Why don't we begin with everyone
1:02
giving a brief introduction about what they do, the work
1:05
they do, and their interest or experience in the menopause.
1:08
So, Ali, let's begin with you. So my name's Ali Dokes and I've
1:14
been a nurse for 38 years. Most of my career husband and
1:17
Women's Health. I used to be a midwife and I've
1:19
had a special interest in the menopause for the past 15 years
1:22
since my own menopause. I'm gonna subscriber.
1:25
I'm a member of British Menopause Society and I'm
1:27
British Menopause Society accredited specialists and I
1:30
have my own private menopause clinic based in Leicester and
1:34
also in Ely and Cambridgeshire where offer women consultations
1:38
to discuss their own menopause journey.
1:40
Explain about menopause, then come up with a plan and I see
1:43
moment either face to face my clinics or do virtual
1:46
consultations as well. My interest in the menopause
1:49
started when I was 40. Actually I was working.
1:53
Was in Advanced Nurse Practitioner in a busy GP
1:56
surgery. I was recently divorced and I
1:58
had an emergency hysterectomy and nobody ever mentioned
2:02
menopausal HRT to me. I went more or less straight
2:05
back to work because I couldn't afford to have any time off work
2:08
and I had three teenage children and I just suddenly started
2:11
struggling doing a job that I've been doing for about 9 years.
2:15
I had no memory, I couldn't concentrate, I lost all my
2:18
confidence. I felt really anxious.
2:20
I couldn't remember simple jokes that I've been describing for
2:23
several years and if I could have afforded to, I would have
2:26
given up my job and changed. But a lower paid job.
2:29
But as a single parent I had to keep working.
2:32
And the surgery that I was working in had three male GPS,
2:35
so most of the women with health problems tended to come to me.
2:39
And I saw a bit of a theme really.
2:40
There was lots of women around my age or older, they were
2:43
complaining of similar things because I haven't had any hot
2:46
flushes so I hadn't really hadn't crossed my mind it.
2:48
Could be the menopause but. Then we're going to think, well,
2:50
there must be something a bit more to this.
2:52
So I did a little bit of research, went to see my GP and
2:55
said I think it might be menopausal and kind of have some
2:58
HRT which she prescribed for me straight away.
3:01
And within weeks I felt better. You know, I've got my memory
3:04
back, I've got my confidence back and I could function again.
3:07
So that's really where my interest in the menopause came
3:10
from, because I realised. Far too many women were
3:12
suffering in silence, so I joined fishermen across the city
3:16
and then eventually I settled my my own clinic about five years
3:19
ago. Joe, do you want first bit about
3:22
yourself and your work and your interests or experience in this
3:26
subject? I'm Joe Roberts.
3:28
So I'm currently head of strategy at Department for
3:31
Transport. I've been working in project
3:34
management for the last 18 or so years of my life.
3:37
My interest in perimenopause kind of happened during the
3:41
pandemic when one period stopped altogether.
3:44
I was 39 and I was just really confused and just thought I put
3:48
it down initially. So not having any female contact
3:51
us. I live with my husband and my
3:52
son and after about 8 months they started to come back.
3:56
But they came back even more painful than they've ever been
3:59
before and I just knew something wasn't quite right.
4:02
I began taking this. My symptoms, I had friends say.
4:05
I think it's the menopause, but you're way too young.
4:07
Only 39 and I was like age isn't anything to do with it.
4:10
I think it's you know happening and it was only just after 10:40
4:15
that I managed to get access to HRT.
4:18
I'm still kind of trying to trying lots of things out,
4:21
tweaking because I'm not the person that I used to be.
4:24
But when when it's right for the month or so that it's all the
4:28
stars are lying, I feel like 25 year old Joe again, not achy,
4:33
creepy, brain fog, everything. So I'm particularly keen to kind
4:39
of really emphasise any problems I come across because I figure
4:43
if I'm if I'm having difficulty with menopause then it's.
4:46
Highly likely that my peers are too.
4:48
Um, so I'm not afraid to talk about it at work.
4:51
Even with male colleagues, they all know that I'm perimenopausal
4:55
and get really hot and get really forgetful.
4:57
Because I think that we need to be having these conversations.
5:00
People need to know about it. Everyone is affected, whether
5:03
you are male or identify as female, because you have a woman
5:07
in your life and Rachel. I'm Rachel Jackson.
5:12
I work in mining at the moment. I've been working in project
5:15
management for over 20 odd years now.
5:18
In my late 30s, I was diagnosed with cancer and I had
5:21
chemotherapy. And then I went very rapidly
5:24
into the menopause and I I really suffered a sense of
5:28
identity crisis. First you've got cancer and lose
5:31
your hair and all that, and then you go out of that and you're in
5:33
the menopause much longer than expected.
5:37
And symptom wise I, you know, memory loss, lack of
5:39
concentration, poor sleep. I was very fortunate because I
5:44
was already in the medical system to get a lot of help HRT
5:47
wise. But I did find in work partly
5:51
because I was having an identity crisis, it was difficult for me
5:54
to talk about in a very male dominated environment.
5:57
And what I also found quite frustrating was to hear people
6:01
say, oh we're losing women left, right and centre, particularly
6:04
the senior women. And yet there's not really much
6:09
done at this moment in time, in my opinion, to to open up the
6:13
conversation, certainly at the senior.
6:15
Levels to say, well actually most of the women at that level
6:19
will be of a of a menopausal age and they've got a challenge of
6:24
all of these symptoms. So sort of having experienced it
6:27
myself, got quite passionate on the subject.
6:31
Well, hopefully this podcast will go some way into kind of
6:34
enlightening people and spreading the word about how to
6:37
support women. So I think it would be useful
6:40
for listeners if we could go back to basics and Get the facts
6:44
about the menopause and what it actually means and what its
6:46
symptoms are. So Ali, if you could briefly
6:50
explain what what happens to you in the menopause?
6:54
So the money, of course it is an option.
6:55
It will happen to some women at some point in their lives.
6:58
The average age of the menopause is 51, and life expectancy for
7:02
women in the UK is 83. So women potentially spend a
7:05
third of their lives postmenopausal.
7:07
And menopause is when you've gone 12 whole months without a
7:10
period. So you actually have a menopause
7:11
day. You go 12 months without a
7:13
period and that's your menopause.
7:15
You wake up the following day and your post menopausal.
7:18
But there's a time leading up to the menopause called the
7:20
perimenopause, and that's when the hormones start fluctuating
7:23
and that's when the symptoms begin.
7:25
And that's on average somewhere in your early 40s.
7:28
Symptoms can last anything from several months to several
7:31
decades and the average. And the symptoms is 7 years, But
7:36
one in 100 women will go through the menopause under the age of
7:39
41. In 1000, women will go through
7:41
the menopause under the age of 30, and one in 10,000 women will
7:45
go through the menopause under the age of 20.
7:48
And then of course, there's other reasons why women have the
7:50
menopause. There's a chemical menopause if
7:52
you have chemotherapy or radiotherapy or drugs to stop
7:56
your periods for different medical reasons.
7:59
And of course, there's the surgical menopause.
8:00
When you have your ovaries removed, typically what symptoms
8:05
surround it? The Simpsons.
8:07
I mean, there are 64 different menopausal symptoms and every
8:11
woman's menopause journey is so different.
8:14
Some women have all 64. I think I've met women that have
8:16
had 65 symptoms and some women don't have any.
8:20
So everybody is just so different.
8:23
And because hormones are fluctuating during the
8:24
perimenopause, symptoms come and go as well.
8:26
So I think women often think, oh, I'll get better or oh, it's
8:30
gone away now, so I'm OK. I'm sorry.
8:32
I've got over it. Ohh.
8:34
You forget because of poor memory, you actually forget
8:36
about the symptoms. So when you finally do go to see
8:38
your GP and talk about it, yeah, just forget half of the symptoms
8:41
that you had anyway. Things like brain fog, poor
8:44
memory, lack of concentration. Low self esteem, mood swings,
8:49
low mood, tearfulness, anxiety, dry eyes isn't really common.
8:54
Menopausal symptoms, Tinnitus, heart palpitations, joint pain,
8:58
dry skin, dry hair, vagina, dryness and saunas, lack of
9:02
libido. The list is endless, really.
9:05
Why do you think this sudden interest in the menopause?
9:08
Especially talking about it at work and how it affects working
9:12
women. Women's Health has always been
9:14
the sort of the Cinderella subject in medicine anyway.
9:17
It's always been something that's been very overlooked and
9:20
women often just get on with it because they're so busy putting
9:23
everybody else in their family at a higher priority than their
9:27
own health, so they often ignore the symptoms as well.
9:31
But I think the big difference, which is, is that the average
9:34
age of retirement is being pushed back.
9:37
Women are working potentially until they're six or seven
9:39
before they get their pension. So women are potentially working
9:41
for 17 years post menopause. Cost of living is really going
9:46
up. So lots of families do have to
9:48
have everybody in the household working because they can't
9:51
afford to not work or to work. Part side, a lot of women have
9:54
elderly parents look after because they're living longer.
9:57
Children may go to university but can't afford to buy houses,
10:00
so they come back and they're in the household.
10:01
So just the whole cost of living and family dynamics are really
10:04
changing and women are doing all these things and struggling with
10:07
menopausal symptoms as well. What do you think has changed
10:12
over the past five or ten years? Even to me, we can have open
10:17
conversations about this at work and don't have to suffer in
10:21
silence, which is what I think lots of women did before,
10:24
certainly, you know, my mum's generation.
10:27
Does anyone want to give their view on that, Joe?
10:31
Yeah, so go back to the pandemic and remember the lives that we
10:35
lived where we're all, you know, petrified of our own shadows,
10:38
Didn't want to leave the house. Now that we've come out of that
10:41
and we are in the new normal or whatever, I think there's a
10:45
large generation of people my age, you know, early 40s now
10:49
saying I don't care. I'm going to live my life how I
10:52
want to live it. And I'm going to tell people
10:55
that I'm suffering. I'm going to be honest about why
10:58
I'm off sick this day. I was off sick on Friday.
11:02
I had the worst period pain in the world.
11:04
It was actually like labour pains.
11:06
It was that bad. I I felt so nauseous and I was
11:10
just like. Sorry, I'm not going to be able
11:12
to do anything today, so see you next.
11:14
Week. And I don't think I'd ever been
11:16
able to do that before. I'd just been like, ohh, I'd
11:18
just feeling got flu or I've got a tummy bug or something.
11:23
But now, you know it, it affects me not just physically but
11:27
mentally. There's so much that is impacted
11:31
by the perimenopause, which is what I'm going through at the
11:34
moment, you know, got the brain fog.
11:36
I can never remember people's names now.
11:38
I used to be so good with names and faces and now I'm just like,
11:41
hi, how are you? And that just makes me feel
11:45
quite sad sometimes. I have to write everything down.
11:48
Absolutely everything. Down, you know, so work wise,
11:52
you know everything. I go through so many notebooks
11:54
and highlighting and what people are saying to me.
11:57
So I I don't kind of miss things and I'm not missing out on
12:00
delivery or something because I just have to remember
12:03
everything, even the doctor's appointment.
12:06
I literally sit there and I take pages of notes into my doctor
12:10
and she's just like, Oh my goodness me, because I know I
12:13
forget. And you need to know all of
12:15
these different things. What ways has it affected your
12:19
project work, and how have you found workarounds?
12:23
And how do you manage your situations so that you can get
12:27
what you want, which might be a day at home or more flexible
12:30
working? I I'm pretty honest as a person.
12:34
I'm, I'm terrible at lying. So when I first sat down with my
12:37
my boss, he was talking about something and I went, don't
12:39
worry, no risk of another child with me.
12:42
I'm going through the perimenopause.
12:43
And he just looked absolutely aghast and I went, you know, and
12:46
this is how it affects me. And I think he just was
12:50
genuinely really interested to understand how he could support
12:54
me, but also quite flabbergasted.
12:57
He's incredibly supportive. I've kind of had mentioned in
13:00
the intro of kind of going through different iterations of
13:02
HRT and how that affects me or disinfects me and means I'm off
13:07
sick for whatever reason. Them I had what I thought was a
13:10
kidney infection. Earlier in the year and it
13:12
wasn't it was actually vaginal atrophy.
13:15
And I need pessaries now because I've always literally cannot
13:18
function. I was in bed for three weeks.
13:20
Yeah. So you'll have to be really
13:21
honest now about these things. Well, I don't have to be a part.
13:24
I am because I think that I owe it to myself and to people that
13:28
are coming behind me to know that actually it's OK to have
13:32
women's problems and know that it does really hurt and
13:37
sometimes you feel terrible. And actually if it was a man
13:41
having these kind of pains they they wouldn't be at work like
13:45
being in an ambulance on the way to hospital, so and and
13:50
reasonable. I've had to kind of say when we
13:52
have the really great big heat earlier in the year and last
13:56
year when it was just so I was like there's no way I can come
13:59
into the office at all. I'm sorry, you're not getting me
14:01
into the office. As government we have to be in I
14:04
think 40% of our time, but they're just like that's totally
14:08
fine. It's it's unreasonable to ask
14:10
anyone to do that. You know, it's it's basics like
14:13
that. But also we're talking about how
14:16
we organise and how I can actually do my job.
14:19
A lot of it is writing everything down.
14:21
Chatting with people in the round conversations that we're
14:24
having, a lot of my work at the moment is around influencing
14:28
people's government. So I'm definitely using my
14:32
superior skills of emotional intelligence and kind of working
14:36
through what people are thinking, what they want and and
14:39
all of that. But equally following up with
14:42
facts and having to kind of feel like I'm working doubly hard,
14:45
double check the actual facts of a situation, how many tonnes of
14:49
material we're using or something like that.
14:52
Have to work really, really hard to make sure I have that.
14:56
OK, Rachel. I mean, your situation is a bit
14:58
different. How did going through this more
15:02
sudden menopause affect your work and how you're working it?
15:06
How did you manage that at work? How was it for you?
15:10
And also once I fortunate because I'd already been sick,
15:15
people were already quite gentle with me, so I didn't really have
15:19
to explain that much. And I was going through
15:21
menopause because I I also ended up having a transplant.
15:25
So there was quite a lot going on with me medically that I
15:29
could actually put it under the radar and people were quite
15:33
sympathetic. So that was quite good.
15:35
But I I found it was more like how it affected me personally.
15:39
I found it probably because I was young.
15:41
Younger and I hadn't had children and I had to deal with
15:45
that aspect of, Oh well, you know, that ship sailed.
15:49
I found the identity crisis I had incredibly challenging and
15:53
that was it then impacting him my confidence.
15:56
I felt like I wanted to be a wallflower and and that's not
16:00
particularly easy in an environment where you're already
16:04
made to be a wallflower because you're in the minority.
16:06
So you've got to stand up and speak for yourself in in
16:09
situations. I found that quite.
16:12
Hard like I was already struggling with who I was.
16:14
Who am I, you know who few weeks ago or a few months back I was
16:18
this woman who could have children who was in a
16:21
relationship, all sorts of things.
16:22
And then it is gone and coming to terms with that.
16:26
And also I think society still has a certain view of women in
16:30
menopause and a certain age and it's it's getting your own head
16:33
around that and thinking now I'm still an attractive female.
16:36
I'm not on the shelf or you know, it's it's all it's dealing
16:40
with that negative attitude. As well with yourself because
16:44
it, you know, my mother wouldn't talk about it.
16:46
I asked her before I went into menopause, when did she go into
16:50
menopause and all. She told me she was in Ireland,
16:52
so I don't know ever go to Ireland and she just didn't want
16:56
her generation. She just did not want to talk
16:58
about it at all. So I think something I would say
17:02
is that people educate yourselves because because I
17:05
went into early, I was totally ill prepared.
17:08
I didn't know like even more than two symptoms, never mind 64
17:12
and I think. That was quite difficult.
17:15
So for me, work wise, I was able to work from home to a certain
17:19
extent and be flexible with it. I just found it quite difficult
17:23
when I would look at somebody and I think I know who you are
17:25
and I don't know why don't you know, don't know your name at
17:27
all. And and they could tell I didn't
17:29
know the name and you think, Oh yeah, I can't explain this.
17:33
This is embarrassing physically. Again, being younger, people
17:36
don't think that's what it could be why you might be struggling,
17:41
you know. Now the age I am, they'd
17:42
probably be thinking. That's why.
17:44
But when it happened to me, yeah, you're younger people
17:47
don't. Just don't think about it as
17:50
something that could be happening to you.
17:53
How have you been able to find support?
17:56
Or have you been quite private? But I know that that people knew
17:59
you kind of were sick anyway. I think I've just been fortunate
18:04
that I've had line managers who are probably younger and more
18:09
more modern thinking, who probably have wives who tell
18:11
them plenty that they wouldn't if they were 10 years older.
18:14
There is, I do feel there is a generational shift, whereas Once
18:19
Upon a time, you know, maybe that was a good way to get a day
18:21
off and say you have like period pains and they just look at you
18:24
and run. Now I'm dealing with people who
18:27
are probably in their 30s and 40s who are line management and
18:31
they're much more open. To the subject it's they don't
18:35
necessarily want to know the details, but this they're
18:37
sympathetic and they're just a different generation thought
18:42
wise. So I've been quite fortunate in
18:44
that respect, I think. And have you gone about sort of
18:48
helping yourself at work? Something good to do is journal
18:52
your symptoms. Because then you can go to your
18:55
line manager and explain this is how this is impacting me
18:59
particularly. Again in a modern workforce we
19:01
have like hot desking policies. So you don't have the same desk
19:06
every day. So you might find you're in the
19:08
hot corner of the office and you like it or not or you don't have
19:10
a fan on your desk. So if you can journal and and go
19:15
and say this is what I need, give them solution.
19:18
Most of the time they'll be quite happy to help you and.
19:24
That, I think is a big thing. Put the case to them rather than
19:27
go and they seem and you think you're having a moan.
19:31
That's a great piece of advice, Joe.
19:34
Any other advice, Freddy? Give him some.
19:36
But anything else that's kind of springing to mind that you wish
19:38
you'd known or someone had told you?
19:41
I think if you can find others who are also going through
19:45
similar, we have a a different kind of couple of networks that
19:49
Department for Transport. We do have a women's network and
19:52
we also have like a menopause network and I have found that a
19:56
really valuable place to meet others to have a quick chat
20:02
about, Oh, I can't work this out.
20:05
Can anyone tell me how to get an occupational health referral or,
20:09
you know, anything that is made? You know medically and work
20:12
related, but equally we we've just kind of shared how we found
20:16
different offices, different ways of travelling to different
20:19
offices and what works, what doesn't and it's just a place
20:23
where you can. I definitely feel I can be
20:25
really really myself there and go I'm having a really rubbish
20:27
day can anyone help me with this and and stuff and it's for me,
20:32
it's about yeah just having that safe space to be able to say
20:36
that And again I'm fortunate that I've had a really great
20:39
line manager. I've got a really good team
20:41
around me where I feel I can say to them or, you know, I'm having
20:45
a really terrible day, I'm having a bit of a shocker.
20:48
You're going to have to step up and lead that.
20:50
And that's the beauty of having a team, right, is that it's not
20:53
all on you, is that you can kind of let others do that as well.
20:57
So that has been another kind of another thing I would recommend
21:01
is kind of making sure that you're not doing all the doing
21:04
because some days you're not going to be there to do it all.
21:08
Ali, is there anything, any advice he'd pass on, sort of
21:11
thinking about all the women that you've helped and and how
21:14
they've coped with it at work? Yeah, I think The thing is to
21:19
have an honest and open policy within the workplace and let
21:22
people talk about menopause. A lot of companies appoint
21:25
somebody called menopause champions.
21:26
So somebody that you can go to and talk about your menopause
21:29
which may not be your line management, might be somebody
21:31
else within the company and may not be of management level, but
21:33
somebody that could that you can go to and support and talk about
21:36
the different symptoms and how you can help and support each
21:39
other. I think flexible working is a
21:41
big thing. It's you know, again, since
21:43
lockdown, lots of the younger generation are are going towards
21:46
this more flexible work because it fits in around their family
21:49
lives. If it's good enough for them,
21:51
it's good enough for us to. You know, if you've got poor
21:53
sleep and you've been awake all night, you don't fall asleep
21:55
till 5:00 in the morning. You long goes off at six, you're
21:58
not going to function at work. So why make women go into work
22:01
at 9:00 if they're not functioning or longer breaks?
22:05
You know, going to the morning, work from home in the evening.
22:08
Just be more flexible to fit in around.
22:10
There's there's no point in staying at work till 5:00,
22:13
staring at the screen. If you're not being productive.
22:15
You'd be better to have a longer lunch break and then work later
22:18
into the evening. You're just sitting around your
22:20
symptoms. We're APM, the only chartered
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Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting
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apm.org.uk. Because when projects succeed,
22:49
society benefits. Is there anything specifically
22:55
about project work? I guess this is for Joe and
22:57
Rachel that that it's trickier to manage when it comes to sort
23:02
of also living with menopausal symptoms.
23:04
So I'm thinking about tight deadlines.
23:06
I'm thinking that I think there is very much a culture within
23:09
the project profession, certainly when I've interviewed
23:11
people, that you have to be not necessarily extroverted, but
23:15
you're the one in front of the client.
23:17
You have to have a lot of self-confidence.
23:19
There's a lot of presentation being the one to fix things.
23:22
Is there anything tricky? About project work that has been
23:25
a challenge or that you've found good ways of dealing with.
23:30
I think the confidence issue is is a challenge and I think
23:35
another thing with project work, certainly sort of where I am, I
23:38
guess I do get to work flexibly, but I'm on the client side.
23:42
I know if I was not on the client side I would probably be
23:45
expected to be in the office. Much more on site particularly
23:50
because it's a construction project there would be that but
23:53
also projects are not often that long in nature.
23:57
You may be moving on. So therefore you're then going
24:01
back and if you know Ali mentioning symptoms can go on
24:04
for you know seven years on average.
24:06
So you're then having to say all against somebody else.
24:10
So it's it's that that you with projects and and Pete the churn
24:15
of people on projects, a lot of people don't stay on big
24:17
projects. More than a couple of years.
24:19
So you were often having to have the same conversation 18 months
24:24
later. And it said if you're expected
24:26
to go on site, which a lot of people are, unless you speak up
24:31
and then it's like, well, the spotlights on you, why are you
24:33
not doing that? Why did you get off the hook?
24:36
And that's not a comfortable conversation to have.
24:38
Is it sometimes because you don't want to be the one
24:42
standing out in the crowd of everyone else that's going on
24:44
site? But actually, sometimes you're
24:47
far too hot to put on all that like this.
24:50
Is it then just a matter of being brave and doing it and
24:53
having that conversation? It's also individual.
24:57
I felt at times when I was going through it, a lack of confidence
25:02
and a poor night's sleep. Everything else.
25:04
I was probably the worst person to advocate for myself because I
25:07
probably would have chewed the head off and, you know, just
25:12
have pure tiredness. So I think that's why it's not
25:16
just menopausal or postmenopausal women.
25:18
We all have to advocate because you know, we're all going to go
25:22
through it collectively because it's it's not, you're not always
25:26
in the best position. On that, with the greatest
25:28
amount of confidence to speak up for yourself in that moment when
25:31
you're challenged and you've got, you know, 12 men looking at
25:34
you and the only person in the room or any woman in the room,
25:37
it's a little bit like, oh, I don't really want to tell you
25:40
all of that right now. What?
25:43
Advice would you give to If you're in a project and a
25:46
project manager or team leader wants to do the right thing and
25:50
is perhaps thinking about these issues for the first time, and
25:53
Rachel, I've asked them to think about it.
25:55
What is helpful for them to do? What is it about creating a
25:59
particular kind of culture? Is it about the practical
26:02
things? Is it about the language you use
26:04
when talking about it? I think it's down to company
26:09
culture and about talking about all sorts of medical health
26:14
issues from mental well-being. So if we keep bringing all of
26:18
these up, I think it's about culture.
26:21
There's practical things here on the mine.
26:24
In every ladies toilets there's sanitary wear available, a
26:28
variety to you. So if you have an accident you
26:31
don't have to worry and go searching for another female to
26:34
ask if she's got anything. It's there.
26:37
Simple little hacks like that from a practical perspective,
26:40
but ultimately it's culture so that you you feel you can speak
26:46
up without being embarrassed about something.
26:49
That actually is very normal. What about you, Joe?
26:54
I was just reflecting on this. I have something called a
26:57
Wellness action plan, which I share with people I work with
27:01
closely, which when I'm well, this is what I look like and
27:04
this is how I will work. But if if there are things when
27:07
I'm not well. And Rachel, you were just saying
27:10
that when you've had no sleep and you're feeling super
27:13
perimenopause or menopause or you're not your best advocate,
27:17
sometimes you can't see it yourself.
27:18
When you're in the thick of it. I get really, really angry and
27:23
get really, really hot angry and confused and it just takes them
27:29
to kind of. There's a couple of phrases that
27:31
I have that I use that to say, Joe, are you feeling OK today?
27:37
And I know when they say that, but I think, oh, hang on,
27:41
they've noticed that something different about me.
27:44
Maybe I'm not being myself, but I think that that that has taken
27:48
a lot for me to put myself out there and say here's what I look
27:51
like when I'm well, here's what I look like when things may not
27:54
be going as well. But want you to help me either
27:57
recognise that I'm not doing as well because sometimes you just
27:59
can't see it, but also help me get better.
28:04
And that's something that's really personal to me.
28:06
But I do think that everyone should kind of consider what
28:09
they look like when they're, you know, at their 90% laziness.
28:14
And then when they're kind of sliding down and thinking, oh,
28:16
I'm really tired, I've got a newborn baby or I've not been,
28:20
you know, sleeping very well, etcetera.
28:22
I think there's lots of things that we can all learn from this
28:26
because as we've all said I think previously, we're here
28:29
until we're at least 60-7 at the moment working.
28:32
We might as well kind of make our time at work reasonably
28:36
enjoyable or livable while we're here.
28:39
I think that's really important. And is there any advice you
28:43
would give to people who are in the senior positions at work
28:46
about making sure that they do things the right way and that
28:48
they support women in the right way?
28:51
Yeah, I just. Think it's being flexible and
28:52
being understanding really. And we all know the NHS is very
28:56
overstretched at the moment and it's actually quite hard to get
28:58
a GP appointment. So a lot of GP surgeries only
29:01
offer appointments on the day. You can't have to camp book
29:04
appointments anymore. And so that might be a day that
29:06
you're at work. So you can't necessarily book a
29:08
day's holiday for your appointment.
29:10
So if you do need to go and see a menopause specialist, then
29:13
make sure it's and it's in work time.
29:15
It might not be you doing it on purpose, it might be that you
29:17
that is the only appointment that you can get.
29:19
A lot of GP surgeries do have. And somebody that specialises
29:23
within their surgery as well, you know a nurse practitioner or
29:26
GP who has a special interest in manifest and they may be part
29:28
time, they may only work certain days.
29:31
So it might be that you can only get an appointment on a
29:33
particular day and it might be a day that you're at work.
29:36
So it's just allowing women to be flexible and access the right
29:40
care and treatment so that they can get the the correct help and
29:43
advice and and to help them to function long term.
29:47
Just thinking about the future and project work.
29:50
I guess it's for you again for Joe and Rachel about it.
29:54
Could things still be done in a better way when it comes to
29:56
project work that means that menopausal women can thrive?
30:02
There's definitely room for improvement.
30:04
I mean, if you about how much effort is made to support
30:08
pregnant women, they're going through a tough time, but
30:12
there's a room that they can go and rest in.
30:14
There's much more flexibility allowed.
30:16
All right. You could argue it's a short
30:18
period, but even when they come back, as mentioned, sleepless
30:21
nights. So I think there's a lot more
30:23
room. But I think one of the biggest
30:25
things is to make sure that you retain women.
30:27
At the moment they're not retain women and those women who can
30:31
then help the next generation. And advocate they're losing
30:36
them. Yeah, without those people then
30:38
you would each generation is just going to come up and only
30:41
chip away a little bit. Do you feel sensitive kind of
30:45
responsibility to be role models to the women beneath you?
30:49
Because you mean Rachel, you talked about your mum and saying
30:51
she never talks about it and perhaps this generational is the
30:56
one that is can talk about it at work.
30:59
Do you ever feel that sense of, you know, you're kind of
31:01
changing things need to be seen to be doing this for the women
31:05
coming up, you know, underneath you?
31:09
Definitely. If if I don't speak up, then you
31:14
know the generation, but behind won't.
31:17
You know, we've got, we've just got to have that conversation
31:21
because as we've discussed, I'm going to be here till I'm 67.
31:24
That's a long time. You got to try and make it
31:27
easier for yourself and there are women in generations ahead
31:32
who made other things for us easier.
31:33
So if I can do my little bit, I will do, you know, 100 percent,
31:37
100%. It's it's so important, isn't
31:40
it, to lift as you climb, to make sure that as you're
31:43
advancing in your career or in in your menopause that everyone
31:47
else understands it and that they have space to kind of
31:51
follow behind you. I think it's just really, really
31:53
important. Any last things you want to pass
31:57
on to listeners or anything? Any advice you'd give that we
32:01
haven't had a chance to kind of mention, I think Rachel said
32:05
earlier about journaling everything.
32:08
I think even if you're not thinking you're perimenopausal
32:11
or even if you're a woman who is having regular periods, journal
32:15
or your symptoms and get to know your own cycle, how you work,
32:19
what your peaks and troughs are. Because I think that that will
32:22
help no end. Not just for when you hit the
32:25
perimenopause and the menopause, but it actually help you right
32:28
now to know that maybe having a big presentation the day before
32:32
your period is due, that may not work for you.
32:35
But if you can flex around that because actually you you aren't
32:39
feeling your best physically and probably mentally as well.
32:42
So why not make it easier for ourselves in knowing who what we
32:47
are, who what our bodies are doing to us and our minds, so
32:50
that we can then present ourselves in a better light at
32:53
work when we need to? Rachel, anything you'd like to
32:57
add? I just say, you know, to women
33:00
of all ages, learn about the menopause, understand what
33:04
what's coming at the moment. Most of us just hear about hot
33:08
flushes, really. And then there's a whole raft of
33:12
other symptoms. Also, I understand that people
33:14
from different ethnic backgrounds experience different
33:17
symptoms. So I understand hot flushes and
33:21
impact Caucasian women more. So you know, learn about it so
33:25
that when it comes, you've got an idea that it's.
33:29
What's happening to you? Ali, anything you'd like to add
33:33
everything? Is don't suffer in silence
33:35
really. You know everybody's menopause
33:37
is quite different and if all your friends appear to self with
33:39
menopause and you're struggling and don't feel ashamed, it
33:42
doesn't mean that you're a failure.
33:43
It just means that you you have different symptoms to your
33:46
friends. And there is always treatment
33:48
options are available to all women whether it be HMRC or
33:52
other medication or diet and lifestyle as well.
33:55
This is a chance to to look at the triggers that being observed
33:58
and often alcohol, caffeine, things like that can bring on
34:02
hot flushes. So just be aware of your.
34:04
Person has been aware of the triggers and get the right
34:07
medical help and advice. Are there any resources you'd
34:12
recommend? Any books or podcasts or
34:14
anything that you would point women to to want to educate
34:18
themselves about this or or find some help?
34:22
I really recommend Doctor Louise Newsome's website, which is
34:25
called Balance. I find it's a really big kind of
34:30
treasure trove of information. And if I think people want to
34:34
find out a bit more about menopause and perimenopause, she
34:37
did a podcast with James Smith who's like a personal trainer,
34:41
about a year or so ago. I did kind of get my line
34:45
manager to listen to that because James Smith is a very
34:48
alpha male, but he completely kind of goal perimenopause and
34:53
menopause. And for me, that was quite
34:56
revolutionary and groundbreaking because he's so alpha male and
35:00
and young and actually was thinking about perimenopause and
35:03
menopause and your exercise and diet and stress and how that
35:06
impacts everything. And I'm Ali, obviously your next
35:11
phone in this field. How can people find out about
35:14
you and the resources available to them?
35:17
So like in this course, simply menopausal.
35:19
So I have my own website simplymenopausal.co.uk.
35:22
There's lots of information on there and you can also follow me
35:25
on social media. I've got Facebook group called
35:28
the Simple Menopausal Community which is a safe space that just
35:31
has women in there. And obviously I don't give
35:33
medical advice on social media, but it's it's nice to help
35:36
support each other and so you don't feel alone.
35:39
And if you are in a workplace where you're not supportive, at
35:41
least you can get support from other women in a similar
35:44
situations. And I also do lots of stuff on
35:47
Instagram and Facebook. Generally as well.
35:49
And I've also got something called the Mighty Networks which
35:52
is more of a corporate type platform which is myself and
35:57
Cathie Hasty who is the HR consultant that together we give
36:00
lots of corporate help and advice to help and support women
36:03
in the workplace is called It's Mighty Networks and it's called
36:06
Menopause working with simply menopause.
36:08
Also lots of device on there as well.
36:10
OK. Brilliant.
36:11
Thank you and and and finally, Rachel, any books or podcasts or
36:15
resources that you've been helpful for you?
36:18
Davina McCall, She has done a lot with it.
36:21
I can't remember the name of the doctor that has done a lot of
36:23
her Instagram posts recently and.
36:26
Yeah. It's just it's just very human.
36:29
Discussing how difficult things are and what happens, I found
36:33
that very relatable. I think we've covered a lot of
36:37
ground here. And so nice to hear that you're
36:41
experiencing what all that person's been sounds pretty
36:44
tricky and challenging, but the fact that you feel supported and
36:48
have been treated and in the right way and being brave enough
36:53
really to talk about this openly is, is really a great thing to
36:57
hear. So I want to thank you again for
36:59
your time and uh, wish you best of luck with everything and
37:04
then, yeah, thank you again. Thank you.
37:08
My pleasure. Thank you.
37:10
Thank you for inviting me. Thanks again to Rachel, Joe, and
37:19
Annie for joining us, and to you for listening to the APM
37:21
podcast. Don't forget to look out for
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