Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / Most Teachers Don't Know Their Lessons Are Failing Half the Class | Dr. Katie Novak

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Most Teachers Don't Know Their Lessons Are Failing Half the Class | Dr. Katie Novak · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

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Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to EdTech
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podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
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Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top EdTech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
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and let's integrate this. That was amazing. You
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like that? Yeah. Welcome to the Integrate This
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EdTech podcast. I'm David Berner, joined by co
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-host Jeremy Mickla, and we have a special guest
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with us today, Dr. Katie Novak. Very excited
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to have Katie with us to talk about a ton of
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different things. Katie has many books and so
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many different topics that we can cover. But
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yeah, what was your favorite part about the intro
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there, I have to ask? I mean, the the video games
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really got me like the leaning into the Pac -Man.
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Like I just that was it that you had me at Pac
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-Man or whatever arcade game that was. Yeah.
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And just for the record, David, who set the high
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score that day? Yeah, there was. So we were at
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this was that that was at ISTE actually in in
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was at the one in Denver. Right. That was Denver.
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And Jeremy set the high score on that. Oh, was
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it? Yeah. What an honor that should be in your
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bio It should be better than your LinkedIn bio.
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Yes. Yes We've since tried other games and David
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has come out successful on those. I know just
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hold on to what you're good at You know, right
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you can curate your own content. Yep Well, if
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we let's get into it here and I actually I wanted
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to ask you Katie like we you you have your your
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Consulting and a lot of the books that you've
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written everything. I wanted to actually start
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before that What was life before the consulting
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gig and all of that? Okay, so I have always been
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a teacher it's the only job I ever had and I
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started by teaching high school English and then
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I went to teach middle school English and for
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all of the middle school teachers out there I
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see you we are a motley crew people say that
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if you love middle schoolers like you're stunted
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in like your own middle school growth because
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the things that we find funny and the fact that
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we think that they're the greatest humans in
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the world make us really unique but I was in
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the classroom for 13 years. And while I was in
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the classroom, I was trained in universal design
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for learning as a guinea pig in a study that
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was funded by the Gates Foundation called The
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Tale of Four Districts. And they were trying
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to figure out what it takes to scale really innovative
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ideas beyond a group of early adopters. to the
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entire school district. And so I was one of the
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early adopters that was tapped to learn more
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about this framework. And as a part of that,
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there were always people in my classroom. It
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became a lab classroom. So there were people
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making videos of it and recording audio. And
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essentially, it was as if I gave informed consent
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that, like, you can have me as an educator. And
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so as a very early part of that, I was invited
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to just share a little bit more about what I
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had learned early about universal design for
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learning. I'm teaching seventh grade. The first
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presentation I gave to adults, they said, will
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you come and present at the Harvard University
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UDL symposium? And I was like, about what? And
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they said, oh, just about what you did as a seventh
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grade teacher before you learned about UDL, because
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I loved teaching. I thought that I was great
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for kids. I was passionate about what I was teaching.
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And then how it changed through universal design
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for learning. And so I just essentially went
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in and did what I would do with seventh graders,
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which was I tried to get a group of professors
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and superintendents and scholars to make salsa
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by giving them only a recipe that was printed
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in, you know, Japanese characters. There were
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enough ingredients. They weren't allowed to work
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together. And the whole idea was like, see, you
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can't do it, even though you'd be very capable
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of doing it if I designed it differently. And
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so it ends with, you know, there are QR codes
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and different recipes and we take out all the
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ingredients. And at the end of that, someone
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came up to me and they said, oh, my gosh, can
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I have your business card? I'm like, for what?
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Like, I teach seventh grade. I don't know what
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you want my business card for. And they said
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like to come out and our district and just share
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that like. It wasn't that you weren't a good
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teacher. It was just that you didn't have the
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skill set yet to design for all learners because
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I just didn't know how to do that. And so that
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started it where my first presentation came out
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of presenting about what I learned very early
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in this research study. And it just kind of kept
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snowballing from that. And so the reason that
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I started being interested in coaching and administration
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was simply because I loved working with teachers
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and it created a schedule that I had. more than
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three personal days a year to support other educators.
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So it went from classroom to administration to
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ultimately being able to do this full time. Yeah.
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And obviously like now you've been in it for
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a while and you have many books, as we mentioned,
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but like the when, when was it that you started
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to get into the consulting? Was that the from
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there did it just kind of snowball or was there
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did it happen a little bit later on the road
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where you developed Novak educational consulting
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and in that. So that was a little bit further
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down the road, but the first time I actually
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did a paid consulting gig was directly after
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that Harvard University Symposium. So somebody
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from there said, can you come out to our school
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district in Indiana and do what you did? And
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I said, yeah, I guess. I have three personal
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days. And so because the feedback not only about
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me, but the other educators in the study was
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so strong from the field, CAST, and they are
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the organization that created the UDL framework.
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They actually created a professional cadre with
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a number of us who were trained as early adopters
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because the field really liked learning from
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people who were still in the field, in classrooms,
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in coaching positions. And so for a number of
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years, I worked with CAST in their professional
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cadre. So this is like how my career trajectory
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went and working with adults. It was like, presentation
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one, Harvard University. Presentation two, I
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went out to Indiana and did it on my own. The
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next two presentations through CAST were like
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Ghent, Belgium and the Hawaii Department of Education.
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Because CAST has such an incredible reputation
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worldwide for their advocacy work, for their
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policy work, for their research work. And they
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created this cadre of which I was in the... most
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perfect place at the most perfect time to be
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able to go out and make all these connections.
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And when they kind of moved away from the cadre
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model, I was able to continue it on my own. So
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I would say I think that Novak education has
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been, you know, I think I was doing it before
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then, but I think technically I like incorporated
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it as a business in 2017. So sometimes when we
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when we're having these conversations with guests
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They'll they'll they'll share a story or an example
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that to me just like clicks in my brain in your
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salsa example that you just gave really did that
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and it reminded me of I my my my son loves watching
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YouTube content creators and One of the groups
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that he follows are called the try guys. Have
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you ever heard of the try guys? No, I have none.
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They have this segment called phoning it in And
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it's where two comedians are in a kitchen and
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they have to create something, but they don't
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know what it is. And what they get to do is to
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talk to two chefs that are trying to give them
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instructions through, you know, talking in their
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ear, like they're talking on a phone and they
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have to try to follow the directions that they're
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giving them to create that. And to me, that does
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sound like another like fine example of how UDL
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works and and what you need to in you know, how
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you need to plan for those situations so you
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don't have these comedians going way off the
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hair creating these then they have to turn it
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over to judges to at the end who are telling
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them whether they did a good job or not a good
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job and it's it's actually really funny check
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that out, but okay. Yeah, but you know, which
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brings me back to you DL here a little bit here
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and in you know, I think For a lot of people,
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when they hear the term UDL, you know, it kind
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of stops them in their tracks and they have to
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like, OK, what does this really mean? So if you
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were to give us the elevator pitch, what UDL
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is and what it isn't in 30 seconds, what would
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that be? OK, so we can just unpack it. So Universal
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Design for Learning. educators are always designing
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learning experiences for all kids. And what we
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know is despite our incredible effort and passion,
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it isn't working for all kids, right? We are
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working way too hard for kids to not have better
9:25
results. And so the idea of universal design
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for learning is based on what we know about just
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the diversity of learners and their needs and
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their challenges and their passions, all of that.
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How do we design learning so that it works better
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for everyone? And that's essentially what it
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boils down to. And so when people say, we're
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doing this already, my response is always, We're
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not yet. We're not designing learning yet. So
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it works for all learners. There is significant
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evidence that there are many learners who have
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significant lagging skills and aren't making
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a lot of progress either academically or behaviorally
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or socially emotionally. And so it's not so much
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a destination. But ultimately, how are we approaching
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planning with this lens of how do I focus on
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firm goals and flexible means? So this has a
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much better chance of working for everyone. And
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so, you know, if I was going to give an analogy
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really quickly is, you know, everybody, if I
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invited, let's say, 25 random people off the
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street over to my house for a dinner party and
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I was like, oh, my goal is I want them to have
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a really, really great dinner. And then I spent
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my entire day making my signature lasagna which
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has meat and cheese and and then I have this
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beautiful bottle of red wine right that is incredibly
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high quality so I don't want to minimize that
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that is high quality it shows technical precision
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it shows passion right it's a great meal I can
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guarantee you in just a random inclusive assortment
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of guests there's going to be a lot of people
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who can't eat it because of lactose intolerant,
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because of gluten sensitivity, because they have
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a plant -based diet, because they're sober, right?
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Or just because they're like, I actually hate
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Italian food, I don't want that. And so what
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we're doing in classrooms is that educators are
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looking at these goals, like the job is to make
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sure that all students understand how complex
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characters interact in a grade level text. And
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then they go back to like, oh. i love the book
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the outsiders so i'm gonna hand it out and hard
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copy and then they're all gonna write a five
11:29
paragraph essay in response to that and it's
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gonna be done in two class periods so they really
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are able to do this efficiently now again it's
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not that that is not high quality i don't want
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to like minimize that that can be a great experience
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for some kids but we know it's not going to work
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for all kids because we have some kids who are
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not reading at grade level yet. They don't have
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the decoding skills. Some students might have
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some visual challenges. Other students are multilingual.
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And that's actually not a writing standard. It's
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a reading comprehension standard. And when we're
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focused on writing, ultimately we can be flexible
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about writing by saying, how many different ways
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are there to brainstorm? Do you want to have
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a conversation? Do you want to look at exemplars?
12:11
Do you want to brain dump? How many ways is there
12:14
to organize your thoughts, outlines, note cards,
12:18
graphic organizers? How many ways do we have
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legitimately to draft writing? It can be writing
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by hand, it can be typing, it can be voice to
12:24
text, right? When we're looking at this lens,
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we're saying firm goals, flexible means. And
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so if my goal at dinner is I want everyone to
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have a really good dinner, then I'm going to
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say, hey, listen, I was going to put together
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a lasagna, but I'll also have a salad. Let's
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potluck this up. And I have water, and I have
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coffee, and I have a great bottle of wine, but
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BYOB. And the more options there are, the more
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people can be included. And so in a nutshell,
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it's how do we design learning that's flexible
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enough to have a much better chance of meeting
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the needs of all learners. Yeah, perfect. And
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you know, in one of your books, the UDL shift,
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you talk about three tenants of UDL. Like quickly,
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what are what are those? Okay, so the three beliefs
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that must be foundational in anybody who's looking
13:11
to plan for all learners, one is recognizing
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what variability actually is. Now, there's two
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types of variability interpersonal variability,
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we are all different from each other. We're unique.
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That's wonderful. That's beautiful. Intra personal
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variability is my needs are always changing.
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which makes it almost impossible to plan for
13:29
somebody. Because, you know, I know that one
13:31
of my, I have four kids, my son Bowden likes
13:33
chocolate chip pancakes, my daughter Aylin likes
13:36
yogurt parfaits, right? Neither of them likes
13:38
what the other one likes. So in theory, that's
13:40
the interpersonal variability. But if I just
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go on and make a yogurt parfait, my daughter's
13:45
like, I'm not in the mood for that today. And
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so what teachers are often doing is they're planning
13:51
for interpersonal variability. Those students
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may need more challenge. Those students may need
13:57
more support. And then the students' needs are
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changing. So I would never be a kid for whom
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would have been. given a lot of extra scaffolding
14:07
for reading because I was always reading at grade
14:09
level. I was a very typical average reader. I
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could read at grade level. So I would not have
14:14
been given an audio version of a book because
14:17
teachers would have said, well, she knows how
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to read. She doesn't need an audio. So we're
14:21
going to give her the printed text. But if I
14:23
broke my glasses or didn't put in my contacts,
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I actually can't. I cannot decode a text. My
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vision is too poor. And so this concept of like,
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if something is necessary for someone, we're
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going to make it available for everyone. That's
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the idea of variability. The next is firm goals,
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flexible means. UDL is not lowering expectations.
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It's not making anything easier. It's really
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trying to isolate what really is it that all
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students have to know and do. And if we're going
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to design with firm goals and flexible means,
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because of variability, then I need learners
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to be much better at making responsible decisions
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for themselves. And so it's also my responsibility
15:04
to think about how do I build learner agency.
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So to go back, one, we recognize that human variability
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is the rule, not the exception. That what people
15:14
need depends largely on context, and we will
15:17
never really know exactly what someone else needs
15:19
without them helping us figure that out. And
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so because of that, we design with firm goals
15:25
and flexible means as much that is appropriate.
15:28
If the goal is writing, all students are going
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to produce writing. So there's no option for
15:33
you can just tell me, but there's lots of ways
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professional writers produce writing. And then
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the last is that learner agency piece, which
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is how do we help students really think about
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which of these is going to work best for you
15:47
today and why, which requires a lot of exploration
15:51
of trying different things, a lot of feedback
15:53
from educators and redirection so that we can
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get to a place that we can say, OK, this is what
15:59
the goal is. I want to have instructional clarity
16:01
here. This is the goal. This is not negotiable.
16:04
Given that this is the goal. Here are a couple
16:06
of different options for how you can learn the
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materials you can use and how you can share that
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you've met this exact goal. And so which of these
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actually works best for you and why. And I'm
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going to be present as a safety net to help you
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reflect and redirect so that ultimately all of
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you have the best chance of not only working
16:23
towards that firm goal, but building those transferable
16:25
skills that all of us are so frustrated that
16:28
they don't have yet, which is like self -awareness,
16:31
responsible decision making, things like that.
16:34
Yeah in case so you as you look at the teacher
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How how do you normally help someone who's say
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as I say like someone doesn't understand UDL?
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They're they're maybe new to teaching they don't
16:44
understand how to incorporate those concepts
16:47
into a lesson What's your your typical approach
16:50
with them to like let's say they're overwhelmed
16:53
by that and so they have you know They're trying
16:55
to plan a lesson What's the easiest in for them
16:59
to start to incorporate some of those things
17:01
to allow for that suite of options or that variability
17:04
to the lesson? So I I play a game often called
17:09
explode the verbs and I wouldn't necessarily
17:12
advocate for anyone to universally design a lesson
17:15
I would say take a lesson that you have and ask
17:19
yourself these questions as you think about how
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you can make it more flexible and So for example
17:24
yesterday I was working with an educator and
17:26
I have my notes right here at a notebook is It's
17:28
just like, you know, I just don't understand
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like I don't see how you can be flexible all
17:32
the time And I said, okay Let's just talk about
17:35
it, right? There are a number of research -based
17:38
ways to take notes, right? If you're looking
17:40
at the research, you have your Cornell note style,
17:43
you have your dual coding, which is like words
17:45
and pictures, sketch noting is kind of an example
17:47
of that, and then you have your generative note
17:49
-taking, which is more of like, it makes sense
17:52
in my brain, it doesn't have to make sense in
17:54
yours, right? Like I'm generating them as I go.
17:57
And so... I said, those technically are, they
18:00
all have really strong evidence bases. I said,
18:02
but I spend a lot of time in classrooms where
18:05
students are required to keep a science notebook
18:09
where they're cutting out things, they're pasting
18:10
them on certain pages, they have to take notes
18:12
a certain way, or it has to be Cornell notes.
18:15
And again, there's nothing wrong with any of
18:17
those things. And so I think that sometimes,
18:19
you know, people are feeling defensive because,
18:22
you know, I'm not saying it can't be an option
18:24
ever. Right. Anything you're doing can be an
18:27
option, but we just have to realize that that
18:29
is not a transferable skill that, you know, you're
18:32
not going off to college and career with a glue
18:35
stick. And, you know, and sisters trying to make
18:38
a notebook. Right. Like, could it be great for
18:40
some kids? Absolutely. Like, I don't want to
18:42
say it isn't. But, you know, if we know as adults,
18:45
there's multiple ways for us to take notes and
18:47
I can walk around in a presentation and see that
18:50
there are multiple ways that people are taking
18:52
notes because they care about the content. They
18:54
want to remember the content. Why are we requiring
18:57
all kids to take notes in the same way? And the
19:00
same can be true of annotating text. The same
19:02
can be true of brainstorming ideas. The same
19:05
can be true about reflection. So even, you know,
19:08
I've been lecturing here for about 10 minutes.
19:10
You've had options for how you're going to take
19:12
notes. But now I want you to go back and make
19:15
sense of your notes and summarize your notes.
19:17
And for some of you, it might be great to actually
19:19
go in and write a summary. And for some of you,
19:21
you might want to, if we're really innovative
19:23
and we're using AI tools, feed all of your raw
19:26
notes in and try to thematically code them. up
19:28
with questions. Some of you might just want to
19:31
have a conversation and like compare and contrast
19:33
notes. Let's take five minutes. Decide how you
19:35
want to reflect on your notes. Then we'll see
19:37
if you have any questions. Right. And so as you're
19:39
thinking about like the word reflects the note
19:42
making discuss write all of those if you can
19:46
explode them. Once you teach the options at the
19:50
beginning of the year, you can look at almost
19:51
any lesson and say, oh, in that lesson, they
19:54
have to access text. Do you want to access it
19:56
on your own? Do you want to access it with a
19:58
partner? Do you want to access it hard copy?
19:59
Do you want to access it digital? Oh, in this
20:02
part, it says they want to have a discussion.
20:04
All right, everyone, I taught you how to do a
20:05
fishbowl. We've talked about think, pair, share.
20:08
We've talked about having a... Discussion board
20:11
discussion, right? Which of those work best for
20:13
you? When it comes to a now we're going to brainstorm
20:17
before you start your assignment, right? And
20:20
so I don't think it's the lesson. And I think
20:23
it's more of what are the pedagogical practices
20:26
that I use all of the time where I'm teaching
20:29
students a way as if it is the way. And instead,
20:34
how do I just step back and say there's other
20:36
ways to do this? And then people are always a
20:38
little bit nervous because they say, but what
20:40
if students are choosing things that don't serve
20:42
their learning? Then you redirect them immediately.
20:45
You say, you know what, I've got to give you
20:46
feedback. I know you're capable of better than
20:48
this. You seem to be more distracted by drawing
20:50
than actually taking notes. The sketchnoting
20:51
isn't working for you to choose something else.
20:54
Right. And so I think that sometimes it feels
20:57
out of control, but it's it's firm goals. always
21:01
before flexible means. And those flexible means
21:04
are to increase engagement, increase agency.
21:09
They're not to increase the fun. They're not
21:12
so that kids can just be out of control, right?
21:15
It's all about what in the field of education,
21:19
like, is actually flexible. So let's take high
21:24
school science, right? High school science teachers,
21:27
you know, I'm not saying it's not valuable to
21:28
learn how to make a lab report. scientists do
21:31
not publish their work in a lab report, right?
21:35
They're either going to do a peer -reviewed research
21:37
paper, they're gonna sit on a panel at a conference,
21:40
they're going to do a poster session, which is
21:43
not necessarily with glitter and trifold, but
21:45
like a really nice digital poster, or they're
21:47
gonna give a presentation, right? And so, you
21:50
know, they have all their data and their findings,
21:52
certainly, but like how do scientists truly share
21:54
their research? It goes beyond just a lab report.
21:58
And yet it is the most commonly used way for
22:02
students to express findings, right? And so like
22:05
when I say the science teachers is like, yeah,
22:07
teach them how to do that. Absolutely. And teach
22:08
it in a flexible way, but then help them to realize
22:11
that there are actually lots of different ways.
22:14
Like, you know, there are some scientists who
22:16
have huge TikTok followings because they're able
22:19
to take this like really esoteric knowledge and
22:23
explain it in a way that is more consumable.
22:25
And so why wouldn't we encourage our kids to
22:27
do that as well? Yeah, and that that's a really
22:31
great because I think it just helps it to be
22:33
more approachable I like what you said about
22:35
having you know, you've got lessons But where
22:38
where are the spots in which you've created a
22:40
space for only one option and you and you how
22:43
do you expand those options? So it's more accessible
22:46
to students As you so at the next question I
22:50
have for you is this is this is to another book,
22:52
but the the elevating educational design with
22:55
AI which you co -wrote with Dr. Katelyn Tucker,
22:59
who was just on the podcast with us. What were
23:02
your conversations like about? So, you know,
23:04
you both are familiar with UDL. And so what was
23:08
the conversations like about there's this new
23:10
thing, right? The AI. How are we going to look
23:14
at this in with that UDL lens? So when I talk
23:18
about AI, like when I present on AI, like my
23:21
first slide is literally just like a hammer,
23:23
like legitimately, it's a hammer. And I say,
23:26
OK, let's look at this, right? I'm going to tell
23:27
you I'm going to tell you two stories, right?
23:29
First, I'm going to talk about my dad. My dad
23:31
is a very, very skilled carpenter, right? Youngest
23:34
of seven boys, older brothers or contractors,
23:37
the man can build anything with a hammer as a
23:40
tool. He can create things that otherwise he
23:43
would not be able to build. And then there's
23:46
a picture of like my four -year -old literally
23:48
just like destroying rocks and things, just going
23:51
after things with a hammer, right? And that's
23:54
where I really honestly think of AI in the same
23:56
way that has the potential for incredible creation
23:59
when used skillfully. thoughtfully, ethically,
24:02
by skilled practitioner. And it also has this
24:05
potential for incredible destruction, really
24:08
undoing a lot of what we know about evidence
24:10
-based practices in pedagogy if we don't stay
24:13
sharp in our own critical thinking, our own analytic
24:15
thinking. And so, you know, when we started,
24:17
I think that we were thinking that, wow, this
24:21
is a tool that's just going to be able to save
24:23
teachers so much time because teachers have this
24:26
skill set already and they can just go in and
24:28
say, give me a lesson. And ultimately what we
24:31
realized is that a lot of what it was producing
24:34
was not evidence based. It was not leading to
24:38
the same firm goals. It has a tendency to try
24:40
to make things easier or more fun. And what we
24:44
realized was it had never ever been more important
24:47
for educators to really think about What does
24:50
it mean to design a learning experience that
24:53
truly works for all learners before? We start
24:57
prompting because although it is fast we can
25:01
never ever assume that it's accurate or that
25:04
it's high quality. Now, I'm not saying that it
25:06
isn't because it could be, but I really think
25:08
that we have to lean into more of an AI enhanced
25:11
process as opposed to an AI replacement of our
25:16
design work. And so when I'm working with educators,
25:20
I'll often say, remember how long it used to
25:22
take. to make rubrics or remember how long it
25:25
used to take to come up with options for a choice
25:28
board. And then I will in real time, I'll say,
25:31
you know, here's a prompt. Look at this. And
25:33
everyone's like, oh, my gosh, that's amazing.
25:35
I'm like, stop. You didn't read it. You don't
25:39
know if it's amazing, you just know it's fast.
25:41
So first of all, we have to realize that fast
25:44
isn't amazing, right? And so as we look at it,
25:48
it's like, okay, so now let's look at this. And
25:50
there is never a time that I don't have some
25:54
sort of concern or feedback about how to make
25:56
it align more to what we know about teaching
25:58
and learning. And so it's like the prompting
26:01
and reprompting. And so what I'm scared of in
26:03
the field of education is that I think it's like,
26:06
oh, we don't have to invest so much in professional
26:08
learning and professional development because
26:10
we have these tools. These tools are not colleagues.
26:14
These tools actually on the bottom say, hey,
26:17
we hallucinate and make mistakes. Good luck with
26:19
me. And so in using it, I think that when we
26:24
are going to use it as a tool, we have to think
26:26
about, well, You know, what are we trying to
26:28
build? Right? Because my dad's not just going
26:30
to go at a piece of wood with a hammer. He sketches
26:32
out this birdhouse. He really thinks about, you
26:34
know, oh, gosh, you know, my mother, both of
26:37
my parents are educators. They're both retired
26:39
after lifetimes and education. My mom's real
26:41
into bird watching now. So there's a lot of birdhouses
26:44
being built. Let me tell you. But like there's
26:46
inspiration. There's a lot of sketching out.
26:49
There's making sure that you have those materials
26:51
first. And then there's thoughtful use of that
26:53
tool. And so I just want to remind educators
26:55
that you are always far more brilliant than these
26:57
tools will ever be. They'll only be as high quality
27:01
as your inputs, your reflection, and your conversation.
27:04
And so when we started using it, I think that
27:06
we were... intending to write this book about
27:09
look how awesome this is and then realized, oh
27:12
my word, this is so inaccurate. And so now the
27:16
book really needs to be about let's remember
27:18
about like all we need to do to design really
27:22
coherent learning experiences. And so neither
27:25
of us advocate for ever going to AI and saying,
27:28
create me a lesson. There's like four different
27:31
stages. One is just instructional clarity. What
27:34
really is it that all students have to know and
27:36
do? How will we know if they can do it? Really
27:38
taking the time to be clear on what is non -negotiable
27:44
for educators, making sure that we have clarity
27:46
and learning targets around students, always
27:48
having that really clear success criteria. And
27:51
until we have that, it's really difficult to
27:54
determine now, where can I be flexible? What
27:56
are the options that students might have for
27:59
learning? And then the next step after that is,
28:02
and how do we think about our own role as educators
28:05
to be able to be responsive to students, to differentiate
28:09
instruction for students based on the progress
28:11
or lack of progress they're making, right? So
28:13
there's a lot of different layers. And I think
28:16
that some of these, these companies have all
28:21
these tools where it's like, hey, we can make
28:23
you a choice board, but they don't require instructional
28:25
clarity first, or hey, we can make you a rubric.
28:28
But to go and create a rubric at the lesson level,
28:32
you first have to know what the standard is,
28:34
what the unit goal or the desired results are,
28:36
what the learning objectives are, and then how
28:38
you translate those into learning targets. And
28:40
so I think that it has, in some ways, it's like
28:44
the canary in the coal mine to say that you know
28:48
it this is now an opportunity more than any other
28:51
time in history to really understand how you
28:53
design a high quality learning experience so
28:57
that you can use these tools to do that more
28:59
efficiently. And I think one of the best things
29:02
that you talked about there too with that is
29:05
it it'll be great if it's a collaborative experience
29:08
with other educators as you're going through
29:10
that process. And I want to give a shout out
29:13
to a group of teachers that David and I were
29:17
at a conference together on Monday and Tuesday
29:19
earlier this week. And I went to a breakout session
29:23
that it was called, let me look at what it was
29:27
called. how AI cohorts elevate instruction in
29:30
AI literacy. And it was by a panel of three educators
29:35
from the same district who had invested in purchasing
29:40
your book and they began with a book study. And
29:45
then within their cohort, they used your book
29:49
as a roadmap to go through some of that process
29:53
of developing you know, what is that going to
29:56
look like within their district? And they gave
29:59
just a great presentation. And they were extremely
30:03
complimentary of both you and Kaplan through
30:06
that process as well. So they were they were
30:09
Pamela, Amy and Angie, all from the Elk River
30:12
School District. And just, you know, nothing
30:15
but kudos for for the work that you're doing
30:17
there. And and it was really great to hear. how
30:20
they were able to implement those strategies
30:23
across their district and what they plan to,
30:25
you know, and this was the first year of it.
30:27
So it was very much now where they headed next
30:30
and really excited for for some follow up there
30:33
on what they're going to accomplish with a broader
30:37
audience within their districts here, too. So
30:40
just I wanted to get that out of the way here
30:42
first. I love it. Tell me about the conference
30:45
so I can try to track these wonderful ladies
30:47
down and send them a thank you. Well, sure. You
30:50
know what? At the end here, I'll message you
30:53
with their contact information here, too. I would
30:56
love that. We love that, too. But it was a conference
30:59
for AI and education that was happening regionally
31:02
in Minnesota and where David and I are. So it
31:07
was a really nice, well -done conference over
31:10
a couple of days. Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah,
31:13
and David and I are in different parts. So we
31:14
were actually able to connect and be together
31:16
in real life, which, you know, doesn't always
31:18
happen. But but I love your face, man. I'm just
31:22
going to say that here, too. Well, I gotcha.
31:27
So one of the other things here that I know that
31:30
you present on, you write on quite a bit, and
31:32
I think there's some connection here to UDL as
31:35
well as MTSS or multi -tiered systems of support.
31:39
Can you briefly describe what that is and how
31:42
the two relate to one another? Sure. So when
31:47
I talk about MTSS, This is like my thing. I don't
31:50
know if the video is ever going to show or if
31:51
it's just going to be audio, but imagine if you're
31:53
listening. I put my two fists together. I take
31:56
MTSS and I snap it in half because we're so consumed
32:00
by the MT part that we're missing the bigger
32:03
picture. Now the MT part is that all students
32:07
should be included in tier one classrooms with
32:10
their peers and have access to grade level instruction
32:13
that is designed to be flexible enough for students
32:18
who need more challenge and acceleration and
32:22
enrichment, and students who have more needs
32:25
for support, right? And so the tier one foundation
32:28
of MT is a universally designed classroom. Because
32:33
if we're gonna include everybody, it has to be
32:36
designed so we can include everybody. Knowing
32:39
that in addition to that, there are going to
32:42
be some students who have more significant needs
32:44
for either enrichment, acceleration, support.
32:47
And so we have to have a really rich data culture
32:49
to determine even when all students are included
32:53
in tier one, what is the additional support that
32:56
students might need either in small groups or
32:58
individually. And that could be based on attendance
33:02
or academics or mental health, whatever it happens
33:05
to be. So the relationship between the M .T.
33:08
and UDL is simply that UDL is that tier one foundation.
33:12
Now, an analogy that I usually use to talk about
33:15
M .T. is just oral health care that like everybody
33:18
has to go to see the dentist, regardless of how
33:21
many significant needs you have. Like you go
33:23
through the dentist, you're always in the dentist
33:25
your whole entire life. But the dentist has this
33:28
lovely data, different practice where the dentist
33:30
is using x -rays and things like that. And they're
33:32
saying, oh my goodness, you're also going to
33:34
need to see an orthodontist. I don't have the
33:37
qualifications. You're also going to see an orthodontist.
33:41
Ooh, you're going to need a root canal. You're
33:44
also going to have to see an endodontist. But
33:47
you're never leaving the dentist's care. And
33:50
so I think in some ways, the way that we've set
33:52
up MT is that we're not actually supplementing
33:56
and adding additional support. we're taking away
34:00
from tier one to provide these additional services.
34:03
And the reason is because the system, the SS,
34:07
simply wasn't built for us to do it differently.
34:11
And so I am much more intrigued by the SS, which
34:14
is the system of support, which requires districts
34:17
to really dive in to learn more about implementation
34:21
science. And implementation science, which transcends
34:24
education, it's financial and healthcare, right?
34:28
How do we close this research to implementation
34:30
gap? If it is, you know, there's so much research
34:33
that great inclusive practice design works. Why
34:37
are we not realizing this in our systems? And
34:40
it's because we don't have the drivers or the
34:44
ingredients necessary to do it. So the drivers
34:47
are in three categories, right? You have your
34:49
competency drivers, which is all about professional
34:51
learning, right? We haven't taught people how
34:54
to do it through professional development. We
34:57
don't support teachers after an initial learning
35:00
about it through instructional coaching, through
35:02
really rich feedback, through co -planning, through
35:05
instructional rounds. through professional learning
35:07
communities. So the system of support is actually
35:10
how do we support educators so that they can
35:14
support students? So a lot of people, when I
35:17
come in, they're like, uh, teachers aren't going
35:19
to want to hear about MTSS. I'm like, they will
35:21
when they know what it actually is, because it's
35:23
about the system wasn't built to give educators
35:28
what they need to really meet the needs of all
35:30
kids, right? We are giving people five, six preps
35:33
a day. no high quality instructional materials,
35:36
very little professional development, not a lot
35:39
of feedback, right? Many teachers don't have
35:42
really authentic, great forms of data, right?
35:44
And they're doing the best they can with what
35:46
they have. So if we want to change the outcomes
35:48
for kids, we have to change the system. And so
35:50
the competency drivers are looking at strategically,
35:53
how are we going to be providing ongoing professional
35:56
learning throughout the school year for our teachers?
35:59
The leadership drivers are staffing. scheduling,
36:04
family and community engagement. It's all about
36:06
a vision for like, what are we really trying
36:09
to do here? What's our vision for instruction?
36:11
Because if we go on the books and we say, our
36:14
vision is that we start every class with instructional
36:17
clarity. Every kid knows what they're learning
36:20
and why. And from there, we want all kids to
36:22
have options for learning, options for the materials
36:26
they use, opportunities for deeper. types of
36:29
assessments or if we're saying that we want to
36:31
do that, then we have to make sure that teachers
36:33
know how to do it. We have to make sure that
36:35
there's accountability in terms of being really
36:38
transparent about this is what we're trying to
36:40
do. But it's also about these implementation
36:43
drivers, which is like, do we have the technology
36:45
to do it? Do we have high quality instructional
36:48
materials? Do we have really good forms of assessment
36:51
and data across all domains? Because most districts
36:55
have a ton of data in literacy math attendance,
37:00
but like we're still very information poor when
37:03
it comes to the student experience, particularly
37:05
when you're looking at the holistic experience
37:07
of kids beyond just math and literacy, which
37:10
are the ones that the easiest to measure and
37:12
standardized testing. So I always think about
37:14
how do we build a system that better. supports
37:17
educators so that they can better support kids.
37:19
And it really starts with this vision of if we're
37:22
saying that we're trying to build a multi -tiered
37:24
system, then we start with tier one because we
37:27
can't intervention our way out. And in order
37:29
to strengthen tier one, we have to make sure
37:32
that our teachers have amazing professional development,
37:35
strong leadership and clarity about what they
37:36
need to change, and the resources to be able
37:39
to do it. You hit on something there too that
37:42
I just want to bring up. I talked to a lot of
37:44
teachers even though I've been out of the classroom
37:46
here for a few years, but I still have a lot
37:48
of teacher friends and you know talking to some
37:51
of them, you know, this summer even, you know,
37:54
they're already dreading. They know that when
37:57
they get back to school in the fall, they've
37:59
got to dedicate workshop time to MTSS training.
38:04
And I can sense they're already dreading this.
38:07
Tell them to call me. Tell them to call Katie.
38:09
And to hear you talk about this, I think just
38:12
if they would just kind of get to the point where
38:14
it's already a lot of what you're doing. It's
38:17
just you're now that dentist and if you need
38:19
to refer them out to the orthodontist or they've
38:22
got to go see an oral surgeon, you know, you
38:24
know who those people are in your buildings and
38:26
that can help get the support that those students
38:28
need at those other different at those other
38:30
different tiers and levels. So to hear you explain
38:33
it that way to me, you know, lowers well. it's
38:37
not going to lower the fear of going to the dentist
38:39
perhaps for some of them, but it still kind of
38:42
gives them relevance to the training and the
38:45
importance of meeting the students where they
38:48
are and providing the systems in place. But I
38:54
think one of the other things that I notice here
38:56
too is sometimes I feel that our teachers get
38:59
too bogged down into it and they get it because
39:02
there's a lot of time pressures and there's a
39:04
lot of content pressures that are put upon them
39:07
and they're trying to achieve you know certain
39:10
test score standards but they then they tend
39:13
to silo themselves and then they they're missing
39:16
out on some of that sharing of the information
39:19
and the data that you're talking about and how
39:21
they can be used to improve the learning experience
39:24
for all their students. Yeah. I mean, the thing
39:26
is, too, is like data has gotten a really bad
39:28
name. Like the reason that we collect data is
39:31
so we know what's working so we can keep doing
39:33
it. And so we know what isn't working so we can
39:35
come together and do something different. That's
39:36
literally the only like that is what data culture
39:38
is. Right. And I think that in some ways it has
39:41
become like this big, scary thing. Whereas like,
39:44
you know, if we know that these are really good
39:46
sources of data and we say, wow, that grade,
39:50
third grade. Right. They have so many fewer referrals
39:54
to tier two consistently. What are they doing?
40:00
because something is happening there that's really
40:02
effective. We want to know what that is so that
40:05
we can replicate it. What are they doing? The
40:08
reason that we're collecting data in all of these
40:10
spaces is to say something is really going well
40:12
here. We're seeing more growth than we would
40:14
expect. Let's get in there. Let's have other
40:17
people observe it. Let's try to figure out what
40:18
is happening. I think a lot of the times, I guess
40:25
the adage, for lack of a better term, I don't
40:27
even know who to attribute it to, is like we
40:28
are data rich and information poor. We're collecting
40:31
so much data, but we don't really know what it's
40:34
telling us in terms of, you know, a lot of the
40:38
time we are essentially over identifying kids
40:41
who need tier two and tier three support. We're
40:44
saying there's too many kids, but it's because
40:46
tier one isn't meeting their needs and people
40:47
don't know what else to do. And so that comes
40:50
down to, okay, so let's see what's happening
40:52
in classrooms. Are we being really flexible?
40:55
Are there flexible instructional materials? Do
40:57
the kids have access to adequate technology?
40:59
And what I would say across the board is it's
41:02
probably a lot of not yet. And so that's why
41:05
we say if we want to minimize the number of students
41:08
who are getting referred to these additional
41:10
supports, we have to think about how we're going
41:12
to invest in tier one, which is how do we help
41:16
teachers to feel more prepared to design instruction
41:19
that works for all students so that they're making
41:21
growth and then we're not saying, gosh, somebody
41:23
else has got to come in. But I don't want to
41:25
minimize the fact that sometimes you're going
41:27
to have. a speech and language pathologist come
41:29
in or a guidance counselor. There's very different
41:31
areas of expertise, and that's why we have to
41:33
work together in some comprehensive plan to meet
41:36
the needs of kids whose needs are more complex.
41:40
And one of the other things to with as far as
41:44
students go, and I'm shifting a little bit here,
41:47
but with your with another one of your books,
41:51
the idea of giving students. Getting students
41:55
the keys to their learning or helping others
41:58
learn so student -led learning. What does that
42:00
look like in terms of? Or how is it different
42:05
should I say from like giving kids choice or
42:10
something like that? I mean kids have a lot of
42:15
choices now that aren't served like it really
42:19
comes down to It's not just about choice. are
42:25
there relevant construct relevant choices that
42:28
would be appropriate? So people say to me sometimes,
42:31
you know what, Katie, sometimes you just can't
42:33
give choices. Sometimes you just have to pay
42:35
your taxes. I'm like great example, actually,
42:37
of something that's pretty universally designed
42:39
because given the wild variability of Americans,
42:43
like pretty much everybody, I'm probably going
42:44
99 percent of people like people get their taxes.
42:47
And why? Because there's so many options and
42:49
there's so much help to do it. Right. So it's
42:51
like if you want to If you want to pay your taxes,
42:54
do you do them by yourself? You go to the post
42:56
office, you get the forms, you can do them in
42:58
hard copy, you can mail them in. You can do them
42:59
free online. You can get a TurboTax. You can
43:02
go to H &R Block. You can hire an accountant.
43:05
You can't do them on time, file an extension.
43:08
Want to pay them across the year? Pay estimated
43:11
taxes. There's actually a ton of flexibility,
43:13
but it's all flexibility that serves this greater
43:16
goal. When I am walking in classrooms, I often
43:19
do see flexible methods. don't often see or I
43:24
don't as often see really firm goals. And so
43:29
I think that the need here, more than anything,
43:32
is instructional clarity. And I got caught in
43:35
that myself as a teacher. It would be like, now
43:38
we're doing the Christmas Carol. Now we're on
43:40
poetry, right? I was an English teacher. Now
43:43
we're doing public speaking. And that was like
43:45
the topic. But it wasn't. the actual standard
43:49
broken down into unit goals. And again, that
43:52
takes time that you have to invest in to really
43:55
unpack that. But it's not just about choices.
43:57
And also, I think we often give too many choices
44:00
because there is some really good research on
44:03
something called the paradox of choice. And too
44:06
many choices actually creates really significant
44:08
barriers to learning. And so people will say,
44:10
how many choices is too many choices? The research
44:13
is clear that anything over six is way too many.
44:15
But the education research shows the best outcomes
44:18
for kids are two to four choices and the barrier
44:21
is eliminated. So as an educator, I just would
44:24
always come up with two or three options. And
44:26
the fourth option is if you have another idea
44:28
that gets you to the same place, by all means,
44:31
I'm listening. So I know so many educators who
44:34
are making choice boards and things like that.
44:36
It's almost impossible to come up with nine good
44:39
construct relevant options. And so, you know,
44:42
I do think that people are like, I've been doing
44:44
this because I've been providing choice. But
44:46
like, if you are sober, I could give you a choice
44:48
of three beers. It doesn't matter. You can't
44:50
access any of them. So it's it's really about
44:53
what is the barrier that I'm eliminating? And
44:57
then how can I provide construct relevant choices?
45:00
Because like in my class, speaking and listening
45:02
standards require an oral presentation. And a
45:05
student might say, well, I don't want to present
45:06
in front of the class. Well, this is the. This
45:10
is the construct. And so I can give you options
45:14
to read from a script or use note cards or present
45:17
with a partner. You can practice with me during
45:21
lunch. You can choose what you're going to present
45:23
about. Right. But like this is the construct.
45:26
And I think some people, because their hearts
45:30
are so good, they give other options like, well,
45:32
you can just, you know, you can just do it in
45:34
private. It's like you have to be able to speak
45:36
to other people unless there's an IEP modification
45:38
that says otherwise. Yeah, and so and that's
45:41
that's really interesting too because they think
45:44
Do you feel like there's a misconception about?
45:47
Udl being like something where You you're you're
45:53
letting the student get out of something that's
45:55
still important to do is that very? very, very,
45:59
very common is, you know, when I come in and
46:02
I, a lot of the times if I'm giving a presentation
46:04
in a district that I've never worked before and
46:06
the leaders say, you know what, I don't think
46:08
a lot of people are familiar with the UDL framework.
46:10
My first slide is always, you know, take a minute
46:12
and either think about what you know about UDL
46:16
already, what you want to know about UDL and
46:20
what concerns you about UDL. And you can do one
46:22
or more of those. And you can either have a conversation
46:26
about it with a colleague, you can just write
46:28
down a list and kind of come back to it throughout
46:30
the day to see if I've answered your concerns.
46:33
Or I would love to know about it because if you
46:36
have concerns or have questions, I can try to
46:37
answer them throughout the day. So I open up
46:39
like a public chat. And this is not for the faint
46:43
of heart for any of you present to just see what
46:45
comes up in a public chat. But like essentially,
46:49
there is a lot of the number one I would say
46:52
is I'm scared it's going to take too much time.
46:55
That comes up all the time and you know, so it
46:58
does it really does not it doesn't take any more
47:00
time If I was gonna say turn and talk to say
47:02
would you rather write it down or would you rather
47:04
have a conversation? It doesn't take any more
47:06
time if I'm gonna hand out a text to say would
47:09
you rather read this by yourself? Silently or
47:11
would you rather read it with a partner? It doesn't
47:13
take any more time after I've showed three different
47:15
ways to take notes over the course of a month
47:18
to then say, now that I've taught you three ways
47:20
to take notes, now you're gonna take notes however
47:22
you want, right? So I think a lot of the times
47:24
we think it's gonna be more time. The other one
47:26
is exactly that, is I feel like students aren't
47:29
going to have opportunities they need to be successful.
47:34
But the big part of Learner Agency is you will,
47:37
I need you to try all of them first because there's
47:39
no way you'll be able to determine what works
47:42
best for you until you've tried them all. So
47:45
you can't say no. generative note -taking doesn't
47:49
work for me. If you've never been actually taught
47:51
what generative note -taking is and how to do
47:53
generative note -taking and feedback on your
47:55
generative notes, you know, I think the reason
47:57
that we know ourselves as learners is because
47:58
we did try these things and we're like, it was
48:00
disastrous. And that's why I don't do it that
48:03
way anymore. So there's so much value in this
48:06
micro failure. The other thing I hear all the
48:08
time as the number one thing people are scared
48:11
of is people right now feel so rushed that they
48:16
said, I don't have time to slow down, to let
48:19
them try these different things. I don't have
48:21
time to pause every 10 minutes and allow kids
48:25
to ask questions. And what I would say is, is,
48:28
you know, you right now you're working really
48:30
hard. But what I know to be true is that the
48:33
systems as they exist right this second get the
48:35
exact results they get. And none of us are really
48:39
happy with that. And so I know that you're covering
48:42
a lot, but if the coverage isn't resulting in
48:47
more learning for all students, it's an opportunity
48:50
to try some new things. And I'm not saying that
48:53
you have to do them all at once. I'm not saying
48:54
this is the right way to do it. But when you're
48:56
looking at there's so many kids who are over
48:59
reliant on teachers. for information who are
49:03
compliant at best and they're not really engaged,
49:06
right? In some ways, it's like, gosh, I'm so
49:09
frustrated they're not engaged, but engagement
49:10
requires autonomy. It requires being able to
49:14
make choices. It requires reflection and deciding,
49:17
like, what is the most challenging thing for
49:19
me right now? So I think that, you know, people
49:22
are concerned that it's making things too easy.
49:24
People are concerned that it's going to take
49:25
too much time for them, but also that it will
49:29
take too much time in the classroom. if we're
49:31
going to be flexible with kids because their
49:33
pacing is going to be off. And what I say is
49:34
their pacing is off now, right? Even if you hand
49:37
out a two page printed text. somebody's reading
49:40
it in a minute, someone's reading it in 10 minutes.
49:42
Like it's not like every kid is paced the same
49:45
anyway. So, you know, if you can be a little
49:47
more flexible about, hey, you're going to have
49:50
15 minutes to get through it. If you don't put
49:52
a pin in it and come back to it, you know, during
49:54
an intervention block or something like that,
49:56
if you finish early, here is a, you know, here's
49:59
a couple of options that you can dive into if
50:01
you finish early, like revising a previous assignment
50:03
for full credit or catching up on, you know,
50:06
a note catcher for an upcoming exam. things like
50:09
that. So I just want people to experiment, to
50:13
try things different. Uh, UDL is not a hard sell
50:17
for educators. Like when I present all over the
50:20
world, you know, once people really do understand
50:22
what it is and how they can implement it, you
50:25
know, my team and I are looking at probably 97
50:28
% of people agreeing or strongly agreeing that
50:30
they learned something really valuable, that
50:32
they're really on board with it. Uh, I think
50:34
it's just a lot of misinformation and a lot of
50:37
What I will say is is weak AI output, making
50:41
people think that it's something that it's not.
50:44
And they look at it and they go, gosh, if this
50:46
is UDL, then I'm not interested. And I agree
50:48
with them. But that's not UDL. Yeah. As you so
50:53
as you you gave some really good examples there
50:55
of like what this looks like in the context of
50:58
like a classroom with K through 12 students.
51:01
But if you had to, if you're applying this to.
51:04
people like you know Jeremy and I are in the
51:07
PD world as well and we're often working with
51:09
adult you know adult professional learning where
51:12
how do you apply these things to that different
51:16
group, that different context. The same exact
51:19
thing. So when I present, I'll always hand out
51:23
a digital back channel that has access to the
51:27
slides, that has a number of different resources.
51:30
You know, ahead of time, I'll remind people that
51:33
they're welcome to print out any of the resources
51:35
if they prefer analog ahead of time to bring
51:37
their headphones. I always chunk instruction
51:40
in about 10 minute increments at most. And after
51:45
the 10 minutes, you know, because what we know
51:47
is based on like John Speller's cognitive load
51:49
theory, what we know about working memory is
51:51
that people do need time to process, whether
51:53
you give it to them or not, they are going to
51:56
disconnect from what's happening and they're
51:57
going to process. And so what I'll often do is
52:00
I'll pause and I'll say, OK, so now I want to
52:03
give you time to reflect. And for some of you,
52:06
that means having a conversation. For some of
52:08
you, that means joining me for a Q &A. For some
52:11
of you, that means just honestly, checking a
52:14
text real quick or checking an email because
52:18
you know that you can't focus with me for the
52:19
next 10 minutes if you don't get that off the
52:21
plate. Like when you're dealing with principals,
52:22
superintendents, like they're putting out fires
52:24
all the time, right? It's like you have a second
52:26
grade teacher that's like just sitting there
52:28
worrying about that the kids are eating the sub
52:30
alive. And so, you know, at the beginning I say,
52:33
you know, make it to do list of all the things
52:34
that are just on your mind, drop them on a piece
52:37
of paper. And like, if you need to get back to
52:39
them, get back to them. But so we'll do about
52:41
10 minutes. And then I'll say, like, just take
52:43
a couple of minutes to reflect, do what you need
52:45
to do. You know, you can take notes, you can
52:47
have a discussion, you can do all these things.
52:50
And then about every half hour or so, once I'm
52:53
kind of chunked, I'll say, OK, so you learned
52:55
all about the different types of scaffolds, right?
52:59
And so now you're going to be able to learn more
53:01
about scaffolds. Would you rather learn about
53:03
them by staying with me? And I'll share how I
53:05
incorporate them in a lesson. Or would you rather
53:08
watch a couple of videos, go somewhere, go outside?
53:11
Or I literally started my own mini podcast. It's
53:14
called The Education Table. Every episode is
53:16
less than 10 minutes. And I did it for the sole
53:18
purpose of my presentations that I can then say,
53:21
or you can go for a walk or go get a coffee.
53:23
And people will say, I'm allowed to leave. I'm
53:26
like, you're a highly trained professional. Yes,
53:27
you can leave. There's a Starbucks four minutes
53:29
away. Put in your order now. You can put it on.
53:32
And like afterwards, you know, people can sit
53:34
or stand, you know, they can talk or they can.
53:37
And what I'll often say, too, is I'll say, like,
53:39
if you're an extrovert rage, you know, if you're
53:41
an introvert and you want to work on your notes
53:43
right now, raise your hand. And I'm like, extroverts,
53:45
leave them alone. Leave them alone. They need
53:47
to do their work. But I think that we can do
53:49
the same exact things, which is like, do you
53:51
want to read something? Do you want to watch
53:53
something? Do you want to stay for a Q &A or
53:54
do you want to go back and apply it? All of that
53:57
is going to be really important. So, Katie, you
54:01
know, kind of as as we are winding down here
54:03
a little bit, getting near the end of the hour,
54:06
you know, David had mentioned early on that,
54:08
you know, you're the author of 17 books. Yeah,
54:11
I'm kind of curious. And I'm going to guess probably
54:13
not done. Well, who knows who knows? But, you
54:17
know, one of the things that I'm kind of curious
54:19
about here is when you think about the whole
54:22
process from the beginning of writing through
54:24
the the actual publication of the book, what
54:27
what most excites you about a new project and
54:29
what most dreads you or what do you most dread
54:31
about that? I don't dread anything about a new
54:35
project. I think that, like, I'm actually always
54:37
very excited about a new project. It doesn't.
54:40
it doesn't strike me as like, oh, no. So like,
54:43
I'm a I'm a long distance runner, like I've run
54:45
a 50 mile race. So like it, I don't look at things
54:48
ahead and go, oh, my gosh, this is going to be
54:50
so much to get through. You know, it's more of
54:52
like, I wonder if I can pull this off to like,
54:55
can my body hold up this long? So I always I
54:59
love a new project. You know, for me, the difference
55:02
is like, do I feel like there's enough that I've
55:05
learned since the last project that there's something
55:07
valuable to share? You know, so You know, right
55:11
now people are like, there another project in
55:13
the works. And it's like, well, I'm building
55:14
a graduate course based on the new book, UDL
55:16
Shift, which I'm super excited about, but. You
55:19
know, it's not about like, well, what's the next
55:21
book? It's like if I have this really good idea
55:23
and it's not something that's in the field, then
55:26
I'll start saying, OK, like maybe I maybe there's
55:29
a gap here that I can fill. But I love writing.
55:32
I really do. I write every day no matter what,
55:34
even if it's just like a blog for my site or
55:37
some content. As much as I love AI, I never,
55:40
ever use AI to draft. My process has changed
55:46
very little since the advent of AI, which is
55:49
that I do all of my drafting voice to text. So
55:53
I can talk so much faster than I can type. And
55:57
so what I'll often do when I have an idea is
55:59
I take out my phone, I'll put on my audio recording,
56:02
and I will literally like, I have to close my
56:04
eyes to get my best ideas, and I will just like.
56:07
Go right. I will like share all my ideas. And
56:10
so people are like, how can you put these out
56:11
so fast? I was like, because I talk fast. So
56:14
I'll put all of my ideas out. I have an audio
56:17
file. I take the audio file transcript. Now what
56:20
I'll do is I'll feed it to chat to BT and say,
56:23
do not change one single word of mine. But please
56:27
put this in a copy edited version, because it's
56:31
one run on sentence otherwise. Right. And then
56:33
I'll take that. and then I'll put it back into
56:36
Google Docs. And that's when I really start to
56:38
dig into it. Once I'm done, I then start feeding
56:42
it to AI as devil's advocate. So I'll say, listen,
56:46
I'm working in a district that has this policy.
56:49
Could there be anything here that people would
56:51
push back on? Or would this equally resonate
56:54
with a teacher who is in preschool or a teacher
56:56
who teaches AP science? Would the IB school community
57:00
be able to connect with this. And then it will
57:03
just give me prompts. And I honestly think it's
57:05
like, it's so good at that piece. And then I'll
57:08
go back in and I'll kind of like write it on
57:09
my own. And I do have Grammarly in full transparency
57:13
to all of those people out there. But so this
57:17
idea of like, I can write more efficiently now
57:21
because of these tools, but the tools don't do
57:23
any writing for me. And so How do we then say
57:27
as educators, we don't have to change the whole
57:29
process, but a part of the process can be made
57:32
a lot more efficient if we still ground it in
57:36
our voice. That's interesting. Matt Miller made
57:39
a similar comment about that when we had him
57:41
on a while back. He'll have his phone with him
57:45
when he's out on an easy run or a walk, and that
57:49
is when he's speaking into his phone. He does
57:51
it too? Yeah. And then he said same almost exact
57:55
same thing about don't change, you know, the
57:57
words, the meanings, the intent behind anything.
57:59
I'm not even asking for a summary. Just like
58:02
turn it into something that can then edit. And
58:04
then he puts it, you know, goes towards a book
58:06
or goes towards like a blog post or a newsletter
58:08
or an email, whatever it happened to be while
58:11
he was doing it. So it was really interesting
58:13
to hear you rather sticking together on something
58:15
like that. One other question, though, here that
58:18
I have is. You've got these 17 books. Is it like
58:24
and you mentioned you have four kids Can you
58:26
pick a favorite or is it like picking a favorite
58:29
of your own children? I mean, I have to say my
58:32
favorite is the newest one just because I think
58:34
like I am a learner I am a voracious learner.
58:37
I'm a reader like I you know I always am so excited
58:42
when people ask for peer reviews of like books
58:44
and articles because I want to know what's out
58:46
there and So I just think that it just represents
58:49
my most recent thinking which I'm most excited
58:52
about right now. So when I wrote, let's say,
58:55
UDL now, which is probably the most widely read
58:57
UDL book, it had three versions that I wrote.
59:01
When I wrote the last version, there wasn't...
59:03
AI. Like, it just, it did not exist, you know,
59:07
in the way it exists. School districts were not
59:11
investing as heavily in high quality instructional
59:13
programs to try to ensure access to grade level
59:17
instruction. Like, there just wasn't that lens
59:19
where every strategic plan in the universe is
59:22
let's get some ELA curriculum, let's get some
59:23
math curriculum, right? And how does that coexist
59:26
with universal design for learning, right? Because
59:28
it can, it can, but I think that people tend
59:31
to see it as like friction, like this thing is
59:33
scripted, this thing is all about choice, they
59:35
can't work together. So there's a whole section
59:36
on that. There's a whole section on how we can
59:40
prepare students for standardized tests in really
59:42
flexible, engaging ways, because unfortunately,
59:45
we have not been able to take down the standardized
59:47
testing industry in its current form. And so
59:49
it is something that we have to work towards.
59:52
But we don't want to teach in an inaccessible
59:54
way to prepare students for an inaccessible test.
59:57
And so really leveraging the research on interleaving
59:59
these standardized tasks throughout, as opposed
1:00:01
to just waiting until test prep. So, uh, so I'm
1:00:04
very, very excited about it. UDL shift. It just
1:00:06
came out in April and you know, the next one
1:00:09
I'm sure it will replace it as my favorite. That
1:00:11
being said, I want to put it on the record. My
1:00:13
fourth child, which is my most recent is not
1:00:16
my favorite because I feel like this is going
1:00:19
to get out there. And then Bowdoin is going to
1:00:20
be like, yeah, I knew it. Most recent all four
1:00:25
tied. All right. Well, Katie, we're, we're going
1:00:28
to be at our, uh, what many would probably describe
1:00:30
as our toughest part of the podcast, which is
1:00:34
the lightning rounds and the this or that or
1:00:36
you had you have to make some hard choices here.
1:00:40
So I'm going to kick things off. Jeremy, I'll
1:00:42
go back and forth. But you you mentioned that
1:00:46
you read a lot. But what's a book or show you
1:00:49
like right now that isn't education related?
1:00:52
So I am really into the true crime genre. And
1:00:57
I think like everyone in America right now, I
1:00:59
am what I just watched the crash. on netflix
1:01:03
is this lightning round like i'm trying to answer
1:01:07
them lightning quick yeah yeah yeah that um so
1:01:10
you've had an opportunity to be a co -author
1:01:12
with several you know on several different projects
1:01:14
and stuff uh what's the best experience that
1:01:16
you've had with co -authoring hands down my dad
1:01:19
i wrote uh udl in the cloud with my dad we have
1:01:22
a super super close relationship he's been an
1:01:24
educator my whole entire life he inspired me
1:01:27
to do it and it was So cool getting to write
1:01:31
a book with my father now I love all my co -authors
1:01:34
but like being able to do something like that
1:01:36
with a daddy is amazing Best place you've eaten
1:01:40
or meal that you've had Gosh best place I have
1:01:46
eaten I'm gonna go with I'm sorry. I'm gonna
1:01:48
go with my mom is Hungarian goulash She still
1:01:50
makes it every year on my birthday and I'm gonna
1:01:52
be 47. So that's my favorite food in the world
1:01:56
What's a place besides home can choose that that
1:02:00
you always enjoy going back to? First encounter
1:02:05
beach on Cape Cod. It's where my in -laws live
1:02:08
and at low tide You can walk out miles and there's
1:02:12
sand dollars and then you place a tube in when
1:02:15
high tide comes in You can flow all the way back
1:02:18
Nice That sounds like fun. We have a river near
1:02:22
our house and we just like sometimes we'll just
1:02:24
drop the tube in in the summer and just Load
1:02:27
on down. Last one of the lightning round, Jeremy
1:02:31
and I are doing a conference tomorrow. You're
1:02:34
our keynote speaker. What's your walkout song?
1:02:37
Thunder ACDC. All right. Nice. So we'll do a
1:02:44
couple of others here that there you have to
1:02:47
choose one or the other. We're going to really
1:02:48
nail you down, put you on the spot. OK, and then
1:02:51
we're just going to do these rapid fire. Would
1:02:54
you rather run at five a .m. in the dark? or
1:02:56
would you rather present a keynote with 20 ,000
1:02:59
people staring at you? I love both of them, but
1:03:01
I've never done a keynote that big, so I would
1:03:03
rather have a keynote with 20 ,000. What do you
1:03:09
prefer doing, writing the first chapter of a
1:03:10
new book or the last chapter? First chapter.
1:03:14
Do you prefer the mountains or the beach? The
1:03:19
beach. For enjoyment now, do you prefer listening
1:03:23
to podcasts or music? Music. Would you rather
1:03:27
get a text or a call? Text. I don't answer my
1:03:30
phone ever. You're at a party. Are you the first
1:03:35
to leave or the last one out the door? I'm going
1:03:41
to go. I have to edit this one. I'm going to
1:03:43
be the most fun person and then leave early because
1:03:46
I fly too close to the sun. I'm like Icarus.
1:03:52
You'll remember like I'm gonna bring the most
1:03:54
energy, but I know I'm not gonna I'm not gonna
1:03:57
make it I love I love like a 10 p .m Bedtime
1:04:00
and for people maybe my age or so that grew up,
1:04:04
you know that loved watching Seinfeld on in the
1:04:06
day and George just like that's it I'm out and
1:04:09
you know, it's just like Always we hit the highest
1:04:12
moment and leave on that point. Oh, no. Yeah
1:04:15
Yeah, they everyone always my friends are like
1:04:17
you just fly too close to the Sun Like I just
1:04:19
I can't I can't hold it for that long Yeah, yeah.
1:04:23
And what do you think about education? Is it
1:04:25
a sprint? Is it a marathon? Or I'll give you
1:04:27
an out here? Or is it something different? Oh,
1:04:30
gosh, I think it's probably one of those like
1:04:32
crazy Spartan races like where you're like literally
1:04:34
like you're crawling underneath the barbed wire.
1:04:37
And you're like getting on each other's shoulders
1:04:39
to try to get through the mud because it is a
1:04:42
team. Event like the education is not something
1:04:45
you can do on your own and definitely you can
1:04:47
run a marathon You can run a sprint on your own.
1:04:49
Like this is we are dragging each other through
1:04:52
the mock For the victory at the end, which is
1:04:56
like we are gonna figure this out again You're
1:04:58
saying your friends are teachers. All my friends
1:05:00
are teachers, right? It is the greatest group
1:05:02
of people in the world. It is the most beautifully
1:05:04
rewarding slash heartbreaking work in the world
1:05:07
and I don't think any of us would do it if we
1:05:11
didn't think it was worthwhile. And that's like
1:05:14
the crazies that do the Spartans, right? Everyone's
1:05:16
like, why would you do that to your body? And
1:05:18
you're like, because at the end, you're like,
1:05:19
I did it. So that is my answer. All right. Well,
1:05:25
Kitty, we want to give you a chance. Is there
1:05:26
anything that you have that you want to communicate
1:05:28
out that's like upcoming or socials, any of those
1:05:31
type of things that you want to let listeners
1:05:34
know that you have coming out? So I would just
1:05:37
say, I'm very easy to find online, Novak Education,
1:05:39
N -O -V -A -K, education .com. And again, check
1:05:43
out UDL Shift. It was published by a dear friend
1:05:45
of mine, George Kuros. And it is, it is. Literally
1:05:49
it came out last month. So it is current Hopefully
1:05:53
it speaks to you in really practical ways I want
1:05:55
to address the concerns that this is gonna be
1:05:58
way more work that it's trying to make things
1:06:00
easier or that there's no possible way you can
1:06:03
incorporate it because I really believe that
1:06:05
Anybody can take the next step forward and being
1:06:07
more flexible to increase learning outcomes for
1:06:10
your learners Awesome, and we'll make sure to
1:06:13
include the links in the in the show notes and
1:06:15
everything So you want to check out Katie's books
1:06:17
or anything? with the consulting, you can do
1:06:20
that. So Katie, thanks for the great conversation
1:06:22
and all the things that you talked with us about.
1:06:25
We appreciate it. Thanks for being on the show.
1:06:28
Thanks for inviting me. It was so fun. Thanks
1:06:31
for listening to Integrate This. Want to take
1:06:33
your learning further? Head over to our YouTube
1:06:36
channel for quick tutorials, deep dives and more
1:06:39
EdTech tips you can use right away. Don't forget
1:06:42
to subscribe and catch new podcast episodes every
1:06:46
Thursday on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get
1:06:49
your podcasts. Until next time, keep exploring,
1:06:54
keep innovating, and keep integrating this.