Latest / Authentic Living / Sticky Learning that Creates Authentic Change with Darren Smith

Transcript

Sticky Learning that Creates Authentic Change with Darren Smith · Authentic Living

0:01
Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
0:08
things that really matter in our lives.
0:11
And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
0:36
Hello, everyone.
0:36
It's Sal Roxanne Derhodge.
0:38
Thanks for tuning in again for authentic living with Roxanne.
0:42
Today, I have Darren who's quite a ways away from it.
0:45
Today, he's in Oxford, England.
0:47
So, Darren, how are you?
0:49
Hey.
0:49
I'm good.
0:50
It's sunny here, which
0:51
is very unusual.
0:52
It's actually, you know, for some of you that will not see the video, there's some lovely
0:56
light coming in there, which kind of nice, for England like you had said earlier.
1:01
It is.
1:01
If anyone seen the, what's the werewolf program?
1:04
Twilight.
1:04
If I do this, it looks like I'm a bit lives up like a werewolf.
1:08
Yeah.
1:10
So, Darren was, Darren and I both, are on the former executive council, which is where we met
1:16
so I graciously asked him to come on and share some of his wisdom.
1:20
So I'll tell you a little bit about him and why I thought that would be a good fit for my
1:24
audience he's been working in the world of the UK's supermarkets and suppliers for over 30
1:29
years.
1:30
He began his career as a buyer at Big 4 UK, so supermarket.
1:35
And after 13 years, he decided to leave setting up making business matter because he wanted to
1:41
help suppliers and and supermarkets to work better together.
1:45
He's a love for human behavior as and as with everyone knows, that's my kind of sweet spot as
1:50
well.
1:50
Helping people to become the best version of themselves.
1:54
And like I say, their authentic self, and MBMs, claim to have the stickiest learning in the
2:02
world.
2:03
So let's talk about stickiness and Like, so I'm gonna assume you have a business background,
2:10
Darren, because, you know, if you were in in that kind of, Rob, tell us a little bit about
2:14
your story and you know, what was your passion that made you create the shift to do something
2:22
a bit different?
2:23
Yeah.
2:24
So, when I was nineteen, I joined by the big supermarkets and my job title was assistant
2:32
cottage CheeseBot.
2:34
Assistant, I can honestly say I don't think of that.
2:37
Anybody else have podcasts for that title?
2:41
So, I wasn't even the real buyer of just the assistant.
2:44
Now, anyone who doesn't know Kosie's cheese is a very small market mainly eaten by old deers
2:49
here in the UK.
2:51
And I was nineteen, so we went sampling on my first day and I tried I've never eaten cottage
2:56
shoes in my life.
2:57
And we ate 60 of them.
3:00
My goodness.
3:00
In one day.
3:02
Now, eventually, I was promoted.
3:03
Thank God.
3:04
And I moved on to become the real Scottish taxpayer, but that aside, I worked with
3:09
suppliers of supermarkets.
3:11
We did lots of negotiations over 13 years and I got to a point of realizing that suppliers and
3:17
supermarkets could work best together.
3:19
I'd always been a fan of understanding how people think and negotiation fascinated me and
3:24
something called category management, which is what we did in the supermarkets.
3:29
And then I set up this business 18 years ago I'll never look back.
3:33
18 years now, in the sticky business?
3:37
Yes.
3:37
In the sticky.
3:39
So you must have I'm gonna say, right?
3:41
Because I'm that's a very competitive business that you'd be in.
3:46
I kind of think of our supermarkets and I've been to, oh, goodness.
3:51
I'm gonna think I forget the name for supermarkets, not Debenhams.
3:55
That's that's a department store.
3:57
There was another one that I went to in in, Bournemouth when I was there.
4:01
But just if you walk through our grocery stores here, and like with yours there, there's so
4:07
much overload, right?
4:11
What you kind of so that's a really, really competitive market.
4:14
So I'm gonna assume that based on kind of where you landed up kind of 18 years now, that's
4:21
there had to be an element of fits and communication and understanding of needs on a
4:26
very, very microscopic level, and then being able to create that connection or the buyer to
4:34
be able to.
4:36
Yeah.
4:36
I think having worked at the the rural edge of a company that makes a very small margin, very
4:44
big sales with very small margins.
4:46
I almost wanted to test where the training can actually work with the learning and development
4:53
really work.
4:54
What I mean by that is that I went from lots and lots of courses and all the people
4:59
listening here have been lots and lots of one day training courses and this is how much they
5:04
go out Absolutely nothing.
5:07
And what a shame because they do these training courses.
5:11
They go on them 9 to 5.
5:13
They thank the train at the end of the day.
5:15
That was absolutely perfect.
5:16
Wonderful course, but then they do absolutely nothing different.
5:20
What a shame.
5:21
And in a world where the margins are so slim, I want to find whether it could be changed.
5:27
Could it be that we could do training courses and change behaviors.
5:32
And the answer is yes, we can.
5:33
So NBO never sold 1 day training courses because they don't work.
5:39
Because, of course, yes, that's nice.
5:40
You know, I think of all the, trainings that I've done in my career and oftentimes as
5:46
executives, first of all, sometimes there's an inconvenience, but sometimes it was nice to
5:50
skip the office as well.
5:51
To think that I'm gonna get away for a day, but you're so right.
5:55
Application after that fact, you know, or a brain gets a concept.
6:01
And, you know, then we, unless we go back and figure out a way to apply it into the practical
6:07
realm of day to day functioning.
6:10
We know, I I know as a psychotherapist as well, how difficult it is for most of us to make
6:16
change.
6:17
Oh, it is.
6:18
It it's very hard.
6:19
And also, there there's not really the appetite to make the change either.
6:22
I'll give you an example.
6:23
I was sent.
6:24
You should never be sent on a training course, but if you ever I won't work and I was sent on
6:29
a training course Smith, you're no good at negotiation.
6:31
Gone this one day course That's not a good start anyway.
6:34
But putting that aside, and I came back to this folder like this 4 inches deep.
6:39
And I thought it was a great course.
6:40
It was a one day course that choose was more brilliant.
6:43
They put me through my paces, and I promised to go through this folder.
6:47
I made a commitment.
6:48
6 months later, I cleared out my desk because I was moving from one department to another.
6:52
And I took that folder, and I threw it in again.
6:56
As does most people, Now I didn't change my behavior because of that course, not at all.
7:01
And what a shame?
7:02
I'd invested a day.
7:04
The company I worked for had invested 2 £3000, and I did nothing different.
7:08
Thank you.
7:09
But here I am working for corporate doing nothing different from training courses Only 3
7:14
years earlier, I've been doing my driving lessons, 1 driving lesson per week for 30
7:20
weeks, because that space repetition, it works.
7:24
All of a sudden, I've learned everything in the day.
7:28
Prices.
7:30
Small, I would say, palpable little bites often, you know, so create the concept you
7:39
know, but you have to I call it the little inoculative factors along the way.
7:42
Right?
7:43
I I've taught, you know, college and grad school and all those things.
7:47
Right?
7:48
And you're so right.
7:49
And oftentimes, my students would do the 14 week.
7:52
And you know, they weren't really, taking the practical application of what they were just
7:57
like thinking, geez.
7:57
I gotta get through these 14 weeks and hopefully it's, you know, past this thing, but
8:02
really were they able to have, boots on the ground kind of practical applications of those
8:08
concepts.
8:09
I have my doubts that most of them did.
8:12
And it's a shame and the bit that I suppose bothered me when I started to get into this
8:17
having come out of corporate and taking my experiences there and wanting to apply
8:21
something different was that some of this research was around from Evinhaus in the 1850s,
8:27
a German psychologist who realized actually, we're gonna forget most of this stuff unless we
8:32
use it within 6 days, 2 weeks, 30 days.
8:36
The research changes But the important thing is we do forget it unless we use it, I'm gonna
8:41
keep using it.
8:42
Let's talk
8:43
a little bit about that.
8:44
Right?
8:44
Like, let's see.
8:45
I'm a poor communicator.
8:47
So I get sent.
8:49
Cause I gotta I gotta figure out how to more effectively communicate with my team more, you
8:55
know, different departments throughout maybe my national company.
9:00
What is the difference between stickiness, which is your concept, and someone kinda, like
9:08
you said, a one I'm done kind of bit.
9:10
But even if they do executive coaching, what's the difference, or is it like a bit of a
9:15
marriage of both that's more most effective?
9:19
There were a number of elements that make the learning stick or more importantly, input the
9:24
learning here, change behaviors.
9:27
And one of those is to have bite sized chunks let's say it might be an hour a half or a few
9:32
hours.
9:33
The second part is to have a space in between to reflect consider use and then to do it
9:39
again.
9:39
The next part is to have a line manager give feedback who says, I see you communicating
9:45
better.
9:45
Brilliant.
9:46
Or no, you're not.
9:48
How can I help?
9:49
That's also important.
9:50
And then one of the other things that we've worked on is having fewer learning objectives
9:55
Now in the world of training that I am in, you'll see training courses that have 6, 7, 8,
10:01
9, 10 learning objectives.
10:02
And you think there's no way I'm gonna change that many behaviors.
10:06
So our stickiness is about what one thing you want to change in negotiation.
10:10
I'd like more confidence Okay.
10:12
Let's work on that.
10:13
Once you've got to that point, let's work on your question technique, but let's not try and
10:17
do an alternate one because you all learn nothing.
10:20
So, really, you know, when you think of those performance evaluations, let's let's get down
10:24
to the nitty gritty of, you know, the ones that we all love to do yearly, either being on the
10:29
receiving end or on the giving end, I think most people don't like performance evaluation
10:33
times because it it's, unfortunately, it doesn't have, I'll leave a very good taste in
10:37
your mouth.
10:39
So oftentimes, you kinda sit down and you'd think about what are the things that I want to
10:43
improve on and things like that.
10:44
So from an HR effective, you know, most people are trying to kind of ensure that people get
10:50
some kind of, you know, organizational development metrics and that they have to meet
10:56
year by year or whatever.
10:58
So with your approach, with, your company, how is it that you work, or do you work with
11:04
companies on those goals to apply your courses?
11:09
Is it that you go into a company and you will work you know, just an overall level with,
11:15
macro goals with the company that translates into micro, or do you do more individual goals
11:22
that kind of goes in and companies have the ability to, go on to a LMS system to, you know,
11:29
retrieve the trainings that's needed individually.
11:32
Yeah.
11:32
And the answer to what Simon, it's it's a bit of both.
11:35
It has to be what the company wants to achieve ultimately.
11:38
Of course, plus it has to be what the individual wants to achieve.
11:42
Because at the end of the day, that individual is the poor, so the poor person's got to go and
11:47
do all this stuff.
11:48
So we have to make sure they're interested in it, and they want to do it.
11:52
We want it the furthest end from why you're at the training course for my Roxanne it will
11:57
never work where we wanna be at the other end of that spectrum of what do you wanna get out
12:02
this training course?
12:03
And normally the conversations between our trainings and learners the learner's waffle on
12:07
about business demands, strategic blah blah blah.
12:10
Now what do you want?
12:12
Well, I wanna be able to leave the office 6 every day.
12:14
Okay.
12:14
That's fine manager.
12:15
A start there.
12:17
And then you've got something that really works because they have a vested interest.
12:22
It's a bit like if I were to hold up when I was learning, French at school, they gave us a
12:28
French bird table.
12:29
This thing was 3 inches deep, and it was all And we sat in double French.
12:35
We opened it and read a bird table.
12:39
Not one thing went into my head.
12:41
But roll forward to me getting my new iPhone the other day.
12:45
I'm opening it.
12:46
I'm playing with it.
12:48
I'm interested.
12:49
And there's the difference between between someone who's motivated and someone who's not
12:53
because I'm gonna get something out of the iPhone.
12:55
I'm interested in technology I want to use it.
12:58
I want to get ahead of my brothers blah blah blah with the French fur table.
13:02
All it did was prop up my desk.
13:05
So, really, if you look at, you know, kind of goals for companies, if we look at corporate
13:10
culture and maybe if there's not buy in, potentially, but they let's say they want
13:15
everybody to be able to have, like you said, better negotiation skills.
13:19
It's Sometimes the buying's not there based on the the culture and based on what maybe the
13:26
the, you know, the senior executive team might want to achieve.
13:30
So in that case, you're going in.
13:33
You're obviously, you know, speaking to senior buyers about potentially what they're needing
13:39
to achieve.
13:39
Sometimes you're getting employees that are gonna feel a bit I'm gonna use the word
13:43
mandated.
13:44
I, you know, I have to take this darn course Yeah.
13:48
And yeah.
13:49
Okay.
13:49
I'm gonna get through it.
13:50
How do you kind of, work with that motivation level?
13:57
Versus someone that kinda is opening the new iPhone that it's a big toy and they wanna get
14:01
better at it.
14:02
So
14:03
they can do, do some fun things.
14:05
Is there a bit of gamification in your courses?
14:08
Or
14:09
It's, it can be horses for courses.
14:11
So the type of things we've done before are set up a leaderboard.
14:15
So the leaderboard is particular people who are dealing with money like negotiators, buyers,
14:20
account managers, So in order to pay for this course, every single person needs to save in
14:25
the next 6 weeks of this training course £500, £1000, whatever it is.
14:30
Let's put everyone happy that we put that up.
14:32
There is a legal.
14:33
Yes.
14:33
Okay.
14:34
What about if we put a prize up from everyone for the person at the very top if they double
14:39
that money Yeah.
14:40
We'll do that.
14:40
Okay.
14:41
What do we do with the personal bond?
14:42
Well, we'll we'll send them emails and we'll mock them or we'll do it in a joke of your
14:46
wife.
14:46
Okay.
14:47
Everyone's agreed.
14:48
We'll do that.
14:49
Yep.
14:49
Let's do it.
14:50
You would not be surprised.
14:51
I'm not as functional that is for those types of people.
14:55
I've saved 20,000 hold on.
14:57
You're only supposed to say £501,000.
14:59
Yeah.
14:59
Well, I've covered his, his, his, and his.
15:02
Wow.
15:03
That's good.
15:04
How did you do that when I did this and they share what their best practice was?
15:08
So it has 3 horses, of course, this, I think, and that's just one of the ways that we can do
15:13
Yeah.
15:13
So you're getting you're making it okay.
15:15
You're gonna obviously, you wanna do the best most of us do, but you're making it more
15:20
collaborative.
15:20
So you're having buy in from people in the departments that want to obviously achieve
15:27
change, but then because they're kind of competing, and we all like to kinda have a
15:31
healthy, friendly competition, then they so the leader board is something that they're seeing
15:37
in reference to what the changes are you're saying based on the courses.
15:41
Okay.
15:41
And it's very similar to our email reduction program.
15:45
Now, emails are the binary of everyone's life.
15:47
There's too many.
15:48
We send too many if you ask anyone, it's always him over there that's sending too many.
15:52
I'm fine, but it's him.
15:54
Every single person, he copies everyone in.
15:56
Do you do that?
15:57
Well, I have to.
15:58
And it goes like that.
16:00
What we found is using Microsoft 365 where you can see how many emails you're sending.
16:05
Again, a lead of all Everyone sends more emails than other people, fine.
16:09
That's okay.
16:10
Watch from your group as our target.
16:11
7%.
16:12
How long?
16:13
4 weeks?
16:14
What do you need?
16:15
Well, we need some hints and tips and webinars.
16:17
Okay.
16:17
Let's do that.
16:18
And we found our program will reduce for a company, emails by 7%.
16:23
That's probably the challenge.
16:25
And, yeah, who doesn't want to have less emails and get up in the next morning and think, my
16:30
goodness, how much time is this gonna take for me to get through to see which ones I have to
16:34
respond to today and then, you know, file the ones and hopefully I get back to it in this
16:38
quarter at some point and the ones that you were thinking, my goodness, I should have
16:42
delisted a long time ago, but haven't had time.
16:45
Absolutely.
16:46
And all we're really doing is doing that line manager piece, but actually they're doing it of
16:51
they're writing how many emails they sent last 4 weeks?
16:54
How many emails they sent the latter 4 weeks?
16:57
Did you hit the target?
16:58
Yes.
16:59
And they're seeing everyone's because everyone's given permission to see everyone
17:02
else's, and they're all working together.
17:05
Works really well.
17:07
So let's talk a little bit with your companies that you're dealing with now or your customers.
17:13
What is what is the biggest need that you're finding requests for, since we've been in this,
17:21
economic space.
17:23
What what do you find that most employers are wanting training on?
17:29
Strangely, it's it's a very small pitch and it won't last long.
17:33
It's influenced over zoom or Skype or teams or whatever it is.
17:39
Because we're dealing with people that need to swing needs to influence, needs to collaborate,
17:44
needs to negotiate.
17:46
It's very important that they have influence when they haven't got it face to face.
17:51
So you take here with me, for instance, right now, I'm quite well framed.
17:57
How many people do you see and they're like this, although I like this.
18:01
Okay.
18:01
How is my frame?
18:02
You're gonna have to tell me.
18:04
I might have to close in a bit because I'm not as close as you.
18:09
And some people, they've got the light come again, so you can't see that face.
18:12
Are those the lights behind them in front?
18:15
So what they're not doing is they're not using what's around them just to improve their
18:19
influence.
18:20
Like you went in a meeting, you'd say, okay, we'd like to open your body language a bit more
18:24
and use your attain.
18:25
Tone change your volume and so on, but they're not doing this.
18:28
And over Zoom, it's much much harder.
18:31
And that's because the eye can see about 576000000 pixels.
18:37
My laptop and your laptop is probably reducing that to about a 1,000,000.
18:41
So you can't see all the little queues that are going on, so I need to be much more animated
18:45
than I was before.
18:48
So that's something that, you've offered, through the pandemic.
18:52
One topic that I see have had a lot of requests for is coping would change.
18:57
Do you find that that's been something that you I know you I've looked at your cards.
19:01
I see that you have cards on mental health, those types of things.
19:06
On the on the kind of the resilience and to things, what is the number 1 or, you know,
19:11
number 1 or 2 things that you're finding people are needing I'm gonna say support whether they
19:16
actually go into training on it, but when you're consulting your management consultations
19:21
or whatever, what are what are those requests those calls out to you for?
19:26
I think what people have realized is that working from home, we've gone through that
19:30
period of, hey, I'm working from home.
19:33
Oh, this is great.
19:34
Oh, no.
19:35
I'm working from home.
19:36
Oh, no.
19:36
They slip off cliff.
19:38
And what they've sort of done, the smart ones have got to the point about here in real
19:42
realize that this could be to stay.
19:45
Either way, they've realized that they have cabin fever or something.
19:49
Many of the walls are closing in, So they want a way of connecting with people they didn't
19:54
have before.
19:56
And Zoom doesn't cut it for the more Skype or whatever it is.
20:00
And they're struggling with that.
20:01
So what we're talking to them about some very simple things, for instance, we need you when
20:07
we have our training course on this topic to have 3 wardrobes.
20:11
You're relaxing wardrobe.
20:13
You're going to work wardrobe, and then you're working from home wardrobe.
20:17
Because what we're trying to do is get them to separate whether at work or when they're at
20:21
home.
20:22
Otherwise, what happens is they open their laptop on the phone for their half watching TV
20:27
that half doing some emails, and all of a sudden life just becomes this blend of hold on.
20:32
I'm working 80 hours a week.
20:34
There's no separation.
20:36
And making those physical changes like what you wear is one of them, having a separate space
20:41
where possible is another.
20:43
This, you might work at the kitchen table.
20:45
Make sure you fold your laptop down and put it away, then the kitchen table is the kitchen
20:49
table again.
20:50
If they don't have these small changes in their life, it will feel like work is just their
20:57
life.
20:58
So like a whole new concept of when I was in corporates, you know, used to always be that,
21:03
you know, it was FaceTime.
21:04
Right?
21:04
And now we've gone 20 years later and we're in this pandemic and it was I went virtual in 2004
21:10
at the time.
21:11
I was an executive, so that was quite a while.
21:12
So I was custom to it.
21:14
But for other people that had never done it, like, I mean, I haven't an area like with my,
21:19
you know, studio.
21:20
I have an office and I quite literally, you know, probably because I had to learn to do it
21:26
and my son was young as at at the time as well is I literally, when I close, I have barn
21:31
doors.
21:32
When I close them, I, you know, lord help you if you see what's past there, but You know what
21:36
I mean?
21:37
I feel mentally now I'm at work.
21:39
Yeah.
21:39
And then when I open those up, right, then I physically feel like, oh, okay.
21:45
I'm I'm done work now.
21:47
So I rarely sit at my desk or my studio unless I'm actually working even though I have a
21:52
sitting area in here.
21:54
So it's what you're so right because that whole concept of work to life balance has always been
21:58
something that most people are dealing with, but now that's become exponential to your point
22:03
because my kids are your kids are home, you know, you're both spouses of potentially
22:08
working from home, you know, and all those things.
22:11
So it's just that that's, you know, combustion that happens, and people are having that much
22:18
more issue with, like you're saying, separating, but also coping and feeling like
22:22
they have some kind of time for themselves personally that doesn't collide into kind of
22:27
the work day.
22:29
Yeah.
22:29
Yeah.
22:30
And and like you, I I I went through my office.
22:33
This is my office, which is in the garden.
22:35
Slightly separate from the house, which is lovely because, I have a separate physical
22:42
space, which I'm lucky to I and I get that.
22:46
For other people, it's trying to create that as best you can in the clothes you wear in where
22:52
you go, in how you shut down, and it's also having some sort of I'm going to work from here
22:57
to here.
22:58
9 till 5, 8 till 6, on a Friday, it's only 9 till 3.
23:02
Whatever it is, you need to write that and stick to it because otherwise
23:07
That's stock gap, you know, whereas at, you know, sometimes at the corporate office, you
23:11
know, it would get in your push, but home, it even becomes even more important that people
23:15
set deafness.
23:16
Like, I knew today, I'm gonna end my day at 3:30, so I knew I booked everything
23:21
accordingly.
23:21
Doesn't mean I probably won't pop in for a bit after potentially to set up my day for
23:27
tomorrow, but I've become a lot more definite too as well with the pandemic because I had a a
23:32
corporate office that I gave up because, you know, I just thought, well, it's, it's going to
23:36
be potentially 2 years.
23:37
It wasn't worth an, the time to keep it to be able to go back.
23:41
So I think a lot of people have been struggling with that.
23:44
Right?
23:44
Like, I mean, especially when their kids are younger as well, you know, just trying to keep
23:50
their mental health whereas now parents don't have that separation.
23:53
I said, you know, people are wanting to go back to the office now I've been hearing a lot more
23:58
because they that whole concept of, you know, I I get to do one thing.
24:01
I get to, you know, chitchat at at the water cooler and to be able to, you know, actually
24:06
see my people I'm working with on certain projects, those types of things.
24:10
Yeah.
24:11
You know?
24:11
I I I would agree.
24:13
And for those people who are struggling, you and I have been doing 15, 18 years working from
24:20
home, you've had that separate space.
24:21
We've learned these behaviors for them to have to learn it pretty quick and it's tough.
24:26
It's really tough to understand how to do these these things remotely.
24:31
To have the separate space set closed blah blah blah.
24:34
And and the bit I'm I think they'll struggle with a lot is what we call the water cooler
24:39
moments.
24:40
The bit where you're gonna have a cup of tea to get it all, get it gets watered together and
24:44
it's that chitchat that happens that makes project x work.
24:47
Trying to create that on Skype or zoom because it's all purposeful.
24:52
It's all I'm gonna talk to Rob Tan, fires will help us fire on that that's a meeting.
24:57
I don't phone you and just say, can you talk about this?
25:00
It doesn't happen as much and it's a shame.
25:02
It's hard to replicate it really hard.
25:04
I would think that it takes longer.
25:08
So potentially we would think that we would be minimizing the amount of wasted time, but
25:13
there's something to to be meant about connection in person that's not replicatable to
25:18
your point, via Zoom.
25:20
Like, when I am on, you know, and I'm sure you've probably had to think a little bit about
25:26
this.
25:26
It's like 7 hours and, you know, if I've had 7 meetings, let's say, between trainings or, or
25:32
coaching or, sometimes a 7 hour online I find a lot more mentally draining than potentially if
25:41
I, I was kind of doing the same hour you know, hours out there kind of thing shifting or maybe
25:47
I might have a couple of Zoom, meetings, but there's something I wonder what it is about the
25:54
brain.
25:54
Is it because we have to focus that much more like you're saying with the pixels, and what
25:59
part of the brain are we over stimulating actually, to hyperfocus because I I could, I
26:05
mean, I could see your nonverbals very well, but if you were in person, it'd be be so much
26:10
more than I'd be getting from you, but I've got half of you.
26:13
I mean, you're pretty animated, so it helps me to but some people are quite flat.
26:18
Sometimes, but, you know, where you're not getting any kind of ability to read that
26:22
affect, and then you're having to work that much more if they're not automated.
26:29
And it's exhausting.
26:30
It's exhausting.
26:31
And particularly if you take, you know, if I'm talking down here or the angles role or the
26:35
light spad, It just makes it doubly hard beyond the 500, 600,000,000 down to the 1,000,000.
26:43
And if I'm also very flat and obviously you can't see what I'm doing down here with hands.
26:46
So I'm trying to hold my hands up at times because I've gotta try and help you understand
26:50
what I'm communicating.
26:52
That's my job.
26:53
But I've been on zoom calls where you've got this guy and he's just to my list.
26:56
Do you think I have no idea what you just said?
26:59
Because all this stuff asked me.
27:01
At that point, you're like, oh my goodness.
27:03
There's no there's no non verbal
27:05
and it's hard.
27:06
And you imagine that when we take cheap negotiation, you've got these guys who are
27:10
trying to really get the point across, but you wanna say, come on.
27:13
Get our point across.
27:14
What are you trying to say?
27:16
Let's put a hand up.
27:17
Let's do something to help communicate your point.
27:20
But they're not getting it yet.
27:21
It's gonna take a while.
27:23
So from the concept of in influence, right, which is what you said you've been doing a lot
27:28
more with.
27:30
I would say that some leaders are very natural at that.
27:34
So maybe they had some tweaks that they would have to do.
27:37
Yep.
27:38
That that I could see.
27:39
But what about if you had environments or whether issues prior to going into the
27:46
lockdowns that and you you were well ahead of us in in England.
27:51
What kind of things do you find or conversations, I should say, Darren, that you
27:57
had with leaders that were not leaving them having the most ideal relationship with their
28:04
workplace, and then they had to go virtual and influence these people.
28:10
The answer is it was bloody hard for them.
28:14
And and and what Zoom Skype online does is we believe it magnifies everything.
28:20
Thing.
28:21
If you were being presented to in a meeting, so you had a dialed girl standing up with slides,
28:28
If that was boring, over Zoom, it is very boring.
28:33
If a leader if a leader struck to have conversations that were more sensitive or more
28:38
intimate or the topic was hard, they struggled ten times more over zoom.
28:44
Because of some of the things we've talked about, the communication, the animation, and so
28:49
on.
28:49
So what we're finding is things that were bad before have got really bad.
28:54
Things that were good before can get better.
28:57
It's this one that really concerns me.
28:59
Those presenters who you just wanted to put a pencil in your ear during their presentations,
29:05
you now just wanna shut your laptop and throw it up on
29:08
Like, oh, I I think I disconnected my internet's down.
29:14
Yes.
29:14
Of course, it's difficult.
29:15
Right?
29:15
Like, and I think some some people naturally are just, you know, more, like you said, more
29:20
animated, you know, user.
29:22
I use my hands a lot.
29:24
If I'm expressing myself.
29:25
So it's but some people are not naturally like that, and not that that's a skill they can't
29:30
learn.
29:30
However, you know, to learn it.
29:33
You know, we've had, let's we've been into this now a year.
29:37
But still people I think people are people are still struggling with the concept of, if this
29:43
is my new normal, I'm kind of not enjoying things as my I still have to be productive,
29:51
but, you know, I'm gonna assume that productivity has been waning because people are
29:55
like, you're right.
29:55
Live first is like, woo hoo.
29:57
I get stay in my pajamas every day.
29:59
Now this is my reality, which I think has been a little bit more difficult.
30:06
It has the the other thing is that people have realized there's an advantage.
30:12
I think it's a disadvantage.
30:13
I'll explain an advantage to being here with my laptop, my phone, because I can have the what
30:20
we call the Norton premium pack.
30:21
Package.
30:22
I can block out everything.
30:24
I haven't got to take your call.
30:26
I don't have to pick up my email, the text, the WhatsApp, the block.
30:30
I don't need to.
30:31
So everyone's being their own super gatekeeper.
30:35
The challenge with that is everyone's being their own super gatekeeper.
30:38
They'll pretend in their diary, which is stopping the serendipity, stopping the
30:43
coincidence, stopping those little things that might happen which make big things.
30:48
And that's a shame.
30:49
That's interesting.
30:50
I've never thought of that because that that is so true because I'm like you.
30:53
Right?
30:54
I'm in my office by myself.
30:55
I'm thinking, okay.
30:56
I'm gonna Book accordingly.
30:58
Every alert is off here.
31:00
Every, you know, and so I'm, you know, 100% because I knew I was meeting with you.
31:05
But you're right because in in the environments where you're at work, you might be working on a
31:09
project.
31:09
Somebody walks past, you know, you're you're, you know, you're one of your team says, can we
31:14
have a little chit chat?
31:15
It may or may not be related, but you're connecting a different way, and I know what's
31:19
happening with you, Darren, and maybe your family or what's happening in your community.
31:23
And that element of connection, I think, is the loss part.
31:27
And I think most of us as human beings kinda need that to to just feel better.
31:35
We do.
31:35
I mean, the the world needs If we stay like this, the world becomes very linear, very flat,
31:40
very logical.
31:41
And I'll give you an example.
31:42
I was collaborating with a a magazine over in the state It was an interview and some other
31:47
things.
31:48
And we've been talking about this and a couple of interviews and some other things.
31:51
About 6 months, and we've done a couple happened.
31:54
So I thought I got to know this guy over email.
31:57
And that's okay.
31:58
So we got to appoint 6 months on where I said, how about we have a short call?
32:01
I think there's things we could do.
32:03
I don't know what they are, but I think there are.
32:05
So he said on his email, write to me and tell me what they are.
32:10
That's it.
32:10
No.
32:11
I'm not going to because I know as soon as I put them on on screen, you'll say no.
32:16
And he wrote back and said, yeah, I will.
32:18
That's a we've been collaborating now for 6 months on on a few things.
32:22
I only want 15 minutes of your time.
32:24
He wrote back and said I can't give you it.
32:26
Wow.
32:27
That's interesting.
32:28
6 months of networking potentially where you're perceiving it at a different different level,
32:34
because that's what I do often too.
32:35
That's me with my background.
32:37
I all say, Well, I know when we chatted and I go, hey, let's just connect, you know, and then
32:41
I, you know, and I'll say to someone, instead of, sending an email.
32:47
If I can, I'll I'll do a voice note.
32:49
I'll say, hey, Sam, you know, I just, you know, you're I would love to kind of connect with
32:53
you.
32:53
How about we jump on a call?
32:55
And here's my link because I find that that just adds a different element because now I'm
33:00
just not the flat picture of this, you know, woman on on LinkedIn kinda with certain
33:05
backgrounds.
33:06
And then then they talk to me.
33:08
We we have a little bit more connection, but to your point, are perceptions of what we might be
33:13
viewing connection as if it's become more linear.
33:17
That's a fascinating perspective in reference to, kind of needs of companies, right, like
33:25
training needs and what are the core key, concerns, for deep, you know, learning and
33:31
development or, engagement or recognition, those types of things.
33:35
Are we getting the 360 impact, or are we just kinda getting what people want us to think they
33:41
need?
33:42
I mean, and it's such a shame with this particular example because I'm sure he is very
33:48
busy.
33:48
We're all very busy.
33:51
He is not going to collaborate on anything outside his linear path.
33:56
So that means that there's other stuff that creates some of the wonderful inventions in our
34:00
world, all the tangents or the things where you just go, wow, Bob and I met and we fall out
34:06
this and we're gonna do that.
34:07
Wonderful.
34:08
He'll never have any of those.
34:10
Because creativity is them being stifled is what you're saying.
34:13
And if you think about it, really, sometimes we come with the most amazing things just because
34:17
we're kinda just being.
34:19
Right?
34:20
Yeah.
34:20
Yeah.
34:20
We're we're spitballing as as you guys might see.
34:23
We're we're brainstorming.
34:25
Yes.
34:25
Exactly.
34:26
Because we might say you know, those things happen, but if I, booked a meeting with him and
34:32
we had a very specific brainstorming, we wouldn't get it.
34:35
It was just through conversation that I think it would happen.
34:38
But I'll never never before I didn't, actually, I don't want to now.
34:43
Is quite the investment as well, to be told absolutely not, not even a 15 minute, you know,
34:48
jump on call, that, which is not a big ask, in my opinion, if if you've spent 6 months with
34:53
someone.
34:54
So that's that's quite fascinating.
34:56
Now let's talk a little bit about, kind of some of the, trainings that you do for anyone
35:04
looking, you know, to implement some training or to find out more about, you know, being like
35:14
we, like you said, collected yourself based on what your needs are.
35:18
There could be so many different goals.
35:20
I know when I was an executive, oftentimes, I would kind of get to be able to decide what I
35:25
wanted.
35:26
Where could people get a hold of you?
35:28
Companies that are potentially looking for some of the things we've talked about, which has
35:32
been quite unique.
35:33
Darren, I can tell you that this conversation that we had about linear, concepts and
35:37
creativity.
35:38
I don't think I've kind of ran across that in the, you know, and I do for these a month.
35:42
So I think that's fantastic.
35:44
And also connection and because I often say with as a as a psychologist that I know how my
35:51
clients' brains are being impacted,
35:54
and
35:54
I know the screens are doing certain things to us that are disallowing us to want to connect
35:59
because now it we only have one option.
36:02
Yes.
36:02
Yes.
36:03
Yeah.
36:04
Alright.
36:04
Oops.
36:05
How about this?
36:05
Rather than we do a pitch where everyone's going to roll their eyes.
36:08
How about I give them something?
36:10
We have spent a lifetime creating an award winning block that we're very proud That award
36:17
winning blog has just under 500 articles all about soft skills and self development.
36:23
And we've given it all the way free.
36:25
Some of the articles of 500 words, some are 10,000 words, and they're full of practical
36:30
advice to enable people to be the very best version of themselves.
36:34
So if they go to making business matter dotco.ukforward/blog, 500 articles separated by
36:42
categories like leadership skills, negotiation, presentation, all the soft skills you'd expect,
36:48
all of that's there for free.
36:49
And if you happen to want to check out training after, I'm your best friend.
36:55
The link will be the link will be in the show notes as well.
36:58
So this has been a an amazing chat.
37:01
I think I've learned a couple of things in reference to maybe what I need to do
37:05
differently when I'm on zoom and to being less linear potentially because I'm sure I've been
37:11
as culpable as other people probably listening to this and recognizing is what is it that I
37:16
can do to have a bit more kind of, like you said, definite stop gaps, to create that
37:25
synergy for some kind of connection.
37:27
What can I do different?
37:29
If my only reach out now is by, Zoom, what is it that I can do different to ensure that I am
37:35
not in that space when I'm getting on a call with someone, because there might be things
37:39
that I could do to just kind of rev up myself to be more connected in order to have those
37:44
call.
37:44
So it's something that I'm I'm taking away from our our chat today.
37:49
So for anyone, that's wanting, more, please reach out to Darren, and that blog sounds
37:55
amazing.
37:56
A lot of free content.
37:57
And then if you're needing more information, you'll be able to connect with them with
38:01
myself, if you're wanting to learn more about authentic leadership and, relationships, you
38:07
can go to Roxanne.
38:09
Take care, everyone.
38:10
I will chat with you soon.