Latest / Making Miracles Happen Masterclass / Ep 24: Murders Solved By Psychics & Spirits | Miracles After Dark

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Ep 24: Murders Solved By Psychics & Spirits | Miracles After Dark · Making Miracles Happen Masterclass

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: I had a question, and my question was can spirits solve their own murders?
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I know from working with police that I do get mediumship information and I pass that along.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: But it's rare that you hear about a spirit coming through in some way, shape, or form to solve their own murders.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I asked Andrew to come with me to help me answer this question.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm curious because you've sent me some stories that would suggest that yes, it is possible.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm at I'm wondering where you got the stories from.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Hey!
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: I looked it up online and I had them find me sources.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, where these places tell me is that they got them from encyclopedias, the Washington Post, archives, and historical archives where these stories exist from years and years ago.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and they're not just old stories, there's there's newer ones as well, but there are some really, really old historical archives that I was gonna say host, um, but document this happening all the way back to like the seven sixteen and seventeen hundreds.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: So this is in Claude GPT.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-uh.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, cool.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: I did actual research.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: I was a researchologist, you heard?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: So what's our first story?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta give us our first story.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: So our first story is The Greenbrier Ghost, um, West Virginia, United States, 1897.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so the first story is the Greenbrier Ghost, West Virginia, United States, 1897.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: So, in the mountains of Greenbrier Greenbrier County, West Virginia, a grieving mother claimed that she that this is precisely her story.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: What happened to her?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: Her daughter, Elva Zona Haste Shoe, Lord, that is a mouthful.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: Say that fast ten times.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: Died at home in January 1897.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Zona had recently married a blacksmith named Edward Shue, also known as Trout.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: The fish?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: Lord.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: Her death was initially attributed to natural causes.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: Her husband had handled her body before the medical examination, and a proper investigation had not yet uncovered what truly happened.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Then Zona's mother, Mary Jane Hester, reportedly began experiencing something she couldn't explain.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: And according to testimony she later gave in court, Zona appeared to her repeatedly.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Her mother insisted that these encounters were not dreams.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: She described them as Zona speaking to her about an argument that had involved supper, dinner for us, and more disturbingly, explaining that her neck had been broken.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Mary Jane refused to let the matter rest.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: She took her suspicious or her suspicious Lord her suspicions to the local prosecutor who ordered Zona's body to be exhumed.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: The examination revealed that Zona's neck had been broken and her windpipe crushed.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: And the findings supported a homicide investigation, and Edward Chu was prostigate prosecated, Lord, I was thinking about prostitution, was prosecuted and convicted of murder.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: But there is a question that has kept the story alive for more than a century.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: Did Zona truly return to her mother and tell her what happened?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Or did the grieving mother recognize signs that others had overlooked?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know damn well that that girl had came to her mother and told her what happened.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's my theory anyway.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but as a grieving mother, you could make up something too.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Was there anything that she said that gave proof to this, or was this just a fascinating story back then?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is what I'd have to ask.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: To be honest, when I read the story, I didn't I didn't really see a lot of proof.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think that she was just so adamant about what had happened, and I don't think I I read that she was just so adamant about what had happened that they couldn't ignore her.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um from what I read that there there was ignoring.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: They they didn't they didn't fully believe her.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't fully trust what she had to say, but again, she was so adamant that she um kept fighting for her child, she kept advocating for her child, and then they finally exhumed her and um found the truth.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so let's look and see if there's any any proof that ghosts can solve the murders, because that one's not necessarily proof, but it's interesting.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: But we're here to answer questions, so we gotta get more of the interesting.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, so this one is from the Washington Post.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm so bad with names.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta tell me if I get this one right.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Are you ready?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Terracita Besa.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 5:01
  unknown: I got it!
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, I'm so excited.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: I want to get the victim's name right.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: I gotta get this right.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's called The Voice from the Grave.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: So in Chicago, Illinois, 1977, a Chicago investigator were confronted with a case that sounded impossible at the time.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: So Teresita Besa was a respiratory uh therapist who worked at Edgewater Hospital, and she was murdered in her own apartment.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Her body was discovered beneath smoldering clothes, which means somebody trying to light her on fire and she had a knife wounded to the chest.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Investigators initially struggled to identify the killer.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Months later, a surgeon named Oh, I think I know the story.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I think I know the story.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Investigators initially struggled to identify the killer, but months later, a surgeon named Dr.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Jose helped me out.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Homie, is that Chua?
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Jose.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so mad with names.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Jose.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's Chua.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Is it Chua?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like Chewbacca?
• 6:10
  unknown: Okay.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: So a surgeon named Dr.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Jose Chua contacted police with an extraordinary account about his wife.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: If he wasn't the killer, I am so sorry that I messed up your name and butchered your whole entire name.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: I apologize.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: What did he do?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: He contacted the police.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: He said that his wife had entered a trance-like state.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wait a minute.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't his wife.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: His wife didn't die.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: This is just a doctor randomly.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: So Dr.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Chua said that his wife had entered a trans-like state and appeared to speak to Tercida.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: During these episodes, she reportedly identified herself as a murdered woman and pleaded for help in finding the person who was responsible.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, in testimony reported by the Washington Post in September of 1978, Dr.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: Chua described his wife's altered voice, saying, Alan Shoreri, another worker at the hospital, as her killer.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, they got a name.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is the proof I was looking for.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: She actually gave a very specific name.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Hold on, I gotta sneeze.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what's happening right now.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: The claim, they said, was startling.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was so specific that the police decided to investigate the name rather than dismiss the story.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: Shirley was questioned and confessed, although the case involved legal challenges and mistrial before ultimately pleaded guilty to murder in 1979.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: The prosecutors emphasized that the alleged voice from beyond was only the initial lead.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's important because that's what gives us the proof is that it came from a supernatural place, but we could prove that this actually happened.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's actually really incredible.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is very credible information.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Investigators said they developed the evidence independently.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: The distinction matters, and it does.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we're here today.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yes.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: The criminal case was real.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Chua's testimony about the trance was also reported.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: Whether Remy had truly been speaking for her, however, cannot be established from those records alone.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: The story leaves an unsettling question.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Was a dead woman demanding justice or did the unusual report lead investigators towards a suspect they had to examine through ordinary police work?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's that question doesn't even make sense.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: If he came to them with a name and that name ended up being accurate, somehow he got that information by some means.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: So unless he actually knew this person and somehow had already got a confession and decided just to kind of milk it for a supernatural story, this is real.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: This is legit.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it gave them all the proof that they needed.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: They actually had, like you said, the name.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just glad they took him seriously enough to investigate.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know, sometimes the police don't do that.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: When you actually talk to the spirit world, you realize that most of them are not seeking justice, they're moving on with their life.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe this was already pre-written, it was their their exit or whatever.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes there are spirits who are like, I know, you need to get this person off the street.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: You need to save another human being.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's almost like we're in a universe where there are some of these people who come in, die, and they're like, we just want to stop this from happening to somebody else.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, just get the person off the street.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really interesting because this to me is um rare.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very to even care about what happened after death.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: So very fascinating.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: I love this story, and it gives us a a deeper look at the dead, the spirits in the afterlife.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe coming back, y'all.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: Be careful.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: If you kill somebody, the ghost might tell on you.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: There is a there is actually a story.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if it's in one of these, but there was a story of this woman who haunted this guy who killed her, and then he he ran to police and confessed because he couldn't take the haunting anymore.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: She was biting his ankles, pulling his hair in his dreams, scratching his stomach, you know.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: I cannot.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and if you think about it culturally, a lot of these these solved murders that are paranormal don't happen in the United States.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: They they happen in other countries where they they value the paranormal, they really truly believe in the paranormal.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: When you look at the United States, we don't look at the paranormal the same way.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like we go through bouts of time like Lilydale in the 1800s and how people seances were so popular in the 1800s, and then you go through this period where that's demonic and that's bad, and we don't do that to taking a whole nother interest in it.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's one of the reasons that spirits may not.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm and I'm trying to figure out how to word this, but I think I think our culture has such a fixation on scary movies, death, cult classics, just kind of like the gross things that are out there.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: That I feel like I I don't even know how to word it.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like it's just entertainment.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: So even if a spirit dies, it's it's not what is it?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's well, I don't think the spirit itself would necessarily take it seriously because it's not part of our culture to do so.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like people won't believe us anyway.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: There's not enough meet maybe mediums that can get the information.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there could be a lot of reasons why our culture itself can't get that level of information, but you go to another country, and because it's part of their their belief, it's part of what they believe to be reality, it's a lot easier for spirits to take it seriously and go, no, let's let's get this person caught.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: But it still happens rarely.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: And the in the when you think of how many people are murdered, it's it's rare.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: My next story.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: Let me get to that.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: Goodness.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: So the next story is Okay, hold on, hold on.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: I got a question for you.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: I this is just for you, not the story you're gonna retell.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you're a medium, you've talked to the dead before.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Even though you're afraid of it.
• 12:25
  unknown: I say dead people.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just curious, honestly, if somebody came to you, a spirit came to you and said, I know the name of the person who murdered me.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Can you help me?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Would you?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Hell yeah, I would.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: So you would go to the police and say, as a black listen, as a black man, you would go to the police and give them the name of a murderer who murders somebody.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And if they if you have any kind of details, they might be like, Well, you had to be involved.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would yeah.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'd as soon as you said that, I was like, hold on, because I'm black, so maybe not.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I might have to go through go find a payphone on the highway and bum fuck Egypt and do it.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know it's happened before.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: I would I don't know.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: I would probably find either a friend, maybe, who's a medium and see if they can connect and get the information to who's not black, um, and see if they can do it, or I would go to a payphone and maybe give them the information.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: Anonymously.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Even though they have cameras everywhere.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it doesn't even matter.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's more dangerous as a black person.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: I I I don't think we can even argue that.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: But even white, a white man could do it, and still they'd be like, Well, you must have some involvement.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because because our culture does not take this seriously, unless the police come to you, it's usually not not taken seriously as a psychic or medium.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I was just wondering if you were knowing that you're a medium who deals with helping people on the other side, would that be something you'd be willing to risk yourself and actually do?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds like a well, I don't know.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I guess yes and no.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it would be an interesting thing to see if they would actually take it seriously and take me seriously and know that I have nothing to do with it, A.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: But I would probably have an alibi because I'd barely leave the house.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and yeah.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I would probably do it.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, it would have been done while you're online with millions of people and they know that you're, you know, nope, he was here with us.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that would be scary.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: That'd be scary.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Just a little because you don't want to be thrown in jail to help someone else, but at the same time, I think sometimes as a psychic or medium, you feel like you have that duty, and then you have to trust that the spirit world is gonna protect you.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: And they better protect me because this dangerous needs screeps.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, story three is yours.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: The Red Barn murder.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Maria Martin's Dream.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: And this happened in Suffolk, England, 1827 through 1828.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: Maria Martin lived in rural Suffolk in May 1827.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: She was supposed to meet William Corter at a place known as the Red Barn.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: Carter reportedly planned for Maria to disguise herself so that they could leave without attracting attention.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: Maria was never seen alive again.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: Corter told the Martin family versions of a story in which Maria had left with him and was living elsewhere.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: Meanwhile, he eventually moved away and established a new life.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: Maria's stepmother, Anne Martin, began to dream about Maria and dreamed that Maria had been murdered and buried beneath the red barn.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: According to a printed account published in 1828, Anne told her husband about these dreams and repeatedly urged him to investigate.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: And eventually, Thomas Martin went to the barn and dug at the place his wife had indicated.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: Maria's moraines were discovered there.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: The discovery shattered the story Corter had told the family.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: Investigators traced him to London.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Lord, he went far, where he was arrested.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: At this trial, he denied responsibility for murder, but the jury found him guilty and he was executed in 1828.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Lord, they went across the pond to get him.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: They had the ability to go and grab this man in the 1800s like that.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: It probably took them 40 days and 40 nights, but yeah.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: But you would have enough time to actually go somewhere and completely get away.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: How would they find him?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: What's wild is thinking that they even had a paper trail that was good enough to find him back then.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's 1800s.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh girl, I'd have been lost here and never to be seen again.
• 16:35
  unknown: Huh.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so she says, Was Maria communicating with her stepmother from Brian the Grave?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the early account is more cautious than many later retellings.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: It describes recurring dreams, not a verified encounter with a visible ghost.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: Still, the timing is chilling.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: A family have been giving a false ex explanation for a disappearance.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: And a persistent dream helped push them towards a place where the truth had been hidden.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I think a thousand percent that that is true.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that because for me, as a medium, as a psychic, I give ghosts the um the rule.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: Do not come to me as your m your murdered, mangled, scary stuff.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: I do not want to see you.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: Come to me in a dream or not at all, because I am delicate and you are not gonna scare the flesh off my body.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Wait, a dream?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: You're afraid of a dream?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, I say come to me in a dream because I don't want to be full body.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: The dream is easier for me to like, I can run, I can escape, I can do all things.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: But if you show up to me in real life where I can't escape, I don't know if I'm gonna survive that.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna kill me, and then you're gonna have to solve my murder because I'm gonna have to come back and tell people that you killed me, and then how you gonna go to jail as a ghost?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think about that one?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: I like it.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's true.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think they can't the daughter came to her parents in a way that her parents could accept it, and came to the most receptive parent first, and then um went to the parent who would therefore investigate it.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: I I I think it I think it's true.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's accurate.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's I the reason why I say I think it's accurate is because I think sometimes ghosts come to people in certain ways, in the way in which they're able to accept them.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like some ghosts or some people can't accept a ghost in their in their form as they are, like when they die when they died or whatever.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: People can't accept that because it will scare them too bad and they would therefore not be able to listen.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it came in a dream because that was the most acceptable way it could get through to the parents and therefore get uh the justice she needed.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: What you think?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: That one feels credible to me because they went across the pond to get a in the 1800s when you had horse and buggy and no planes or train well, you had trains, but no planes, you know?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: Wait a minute.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: Wait a minute.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Where did where did she get killed?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Was this overseas already?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: No, I wait, you know, it was it was I think in the USA.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: Let me go back.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: Hold on.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh no, she was already overseas.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, never mind.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: Wait, so if it was overseas, why the hell did they go overseas to get him if it was already overseas?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't go overseas.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Traced him to London.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't say they hit they went overseas.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, never mind.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: I just saw London and said overseas because London is overseas for.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then I ran with it.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's my fault.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: These are interesting stories, though.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, that was a good story.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: I love when they come in ways where the family can accept it, where and and and that the family will take it seriously enough to investigate.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: She got justice.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, so this Jacqueline Poole was murdered in February of 1983.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: And this was reported in The Guardian.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm taking it the Guardian is legit, right?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a tabloid.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: The Guardian is like legit reporting.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, definitely.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: And they claim there was psychic involvement.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: So here we go with this story.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: So Jacqueline Poole was murdered in February of 1983.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: She had been SA'd, if you know what that means, and strangled in her flat in Rislip, West London.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: What is that?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta pretend to be like my AI editor.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like just say the name correctly, and then we just move on.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Is it really?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: I got it.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's crazy.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're using the hood though.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: Phonics today.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: During the initial investigation, a local medium told police she believed that she had been contacted by Paul's spirit.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: In a trance, she reportedly described the aspect of the crime and wrote the nickname Pokey, associated with Anthony Rook, who eventually became the suspect convicted of Poole's murder.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Or the paranormal investigators, the account seemed remarkable.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: How could a medium provide a nickname connected with the killer?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's not that hard if they tell it to you.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying, if the spirit world is talking to you, it's not hard at all.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is how many spirits are actually relaying messages, messages like that.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: But a later investigation examined the chronology and the police evidence.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Their review raised significant doubt.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: They reported that Rourke was already a suspect before the medium's interview and that the detective involved did not credit her information with solving the case.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: But how did she know Pokey?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm still out on that one.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: He says the breakthrough came much later in 2001.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Advance in DNA technology lists Rourke in forensics evidence as the murderer, and he was convicted.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: So even if she had the information and gave them accurate information, they could not convict him based on that information.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: They actually still needed the DNA.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Does not mean that the medium didn't know and didn't give them that information.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that's very interesting, but I could see why it was not given as what broke the case because they couldn't break the case until DNA.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: They still need more proof.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: I can also see in certain elements why a spirit wouldn't come through, anyways, because either way, whether they tell you or not, they're most likely going to need DNA nowadays.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: I like the story.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: It really gives a more modern piece of proof a little bit.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in in uh inviting in DNA analysis that link to it.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: But when she said when you said pokey, I was like, Hold on, is that Pookie?
• 22:31
  unknown: Is it Pookie?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: That was Pokey because Pookie has two feet.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: But I was like, hold on, Pookie.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: Names.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's the only thing that will ruin a story for me is names because they are difficult, but hey, you know, you gotta do what you gotta do.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um this one was interesting, but how did she say?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: It says a local medium, Christine, told belief she believed she had been contacted by pool spirit.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: So then pool spirit would have given her the information of who did it.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so she didn't solve the the murder just because we need more nowadays.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And um, but she knew who did it and she gave the information before they ever got the evidence of it.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: And police use mediums in psychics all the time.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: But here's what gets me.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: This is where the skepticism can be too much sometimes because I'm skeptical too.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: The real scientists are gonna be they're gonna be neutral.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna be, okay, there's we gotta ask the questions of a skeptic, and we have to ask the questions of a believer to get the truth.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: What gets me is um I forgot.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember what happened.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: What gets you is what?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: Lord, I think what gets me.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wait, no, I got it, I got it, hold on.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: So what gets me is that it the investigators may have their doubts, right?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because he was already a suspect before she ever gave that name.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: But how would she know that was a suspect?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: How would she know?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: It does not say that here.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: So we're missing some key information.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to see like the transcripts.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we should get transcripts and stuff.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think that would be really interesting to dig deeper into this.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: But without the transcripts, you don't know if anybody outside of the police even knew because they don't tell you every suspect they have, they have to keep things under their lock and key.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's the only thing that gets me on that one is why would they think it's fake just because he was a suspect?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean she knew that.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: It also seems like it it's leading into this this like skeptical um reality where in the 2000s people are more and more skeptical because you have so much so many things now that can prove the truth.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: No?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think there's a lot of reasons to be skeptical because people can fake video now with AI worse than ever.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: But you can fake videos, you could do it back then with CGI and and some curtains and some shadows.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of ways to fake things.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: So if she did get the information that um that he was a suspect, she could have easily said that.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: But um, if there were more than one suspect, how would she know it was just him?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's fascinating.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's why I would want to see like transcripts and stuff and get more information because this could honestly be legit.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm reading the story now from um uh like the the the documented version of it where they get where they break down what happened and why they were suspicious of the person who killed and all the things, and doesn't really say anything about uh her and why they believed her or if she was someone who was taken seriously at all.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: She's kind of just mentioned.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: And there's also you also have to realize that there's uh, you know, police officers that come through now and share their stories because it's popular to do so on social media, it's popular to do so on on television shows.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody have their 15 minutes of fame at this point.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: But back then, if you worked with the psychic, you'd be teased.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: You have to keep it a secret.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I'm saying?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you can't you can't say you're doing that.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it would make sense if this was a hundred percent true that they would be like, nope.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like we have to mention that you knew something, but we're not gonna talk any further about that.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Alright, you got the last story for us?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm, girlfriend.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: So the last and final story is Fisher's Ghost, the silent figure on the rail.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and this one happened in Campbelltown, New South Wales, Australia.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: I thought Wales was in the UK.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, it happened in 1826.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: And in this story, Frederick Fisher was a real man living in Campbelltown district of New South Wales in 1826.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: He disappeared.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: His neighbor George Warall gave explanation for his absence, but suspicions eventually arose.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: In the best known version of the ghost story, a local man named James Farley entered an inn in a state of shock after seeing Fisher's apparition sitting on a rail near a creek.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: The figure allegedly pointed toward a paddock, then vanished.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: That image, a dead man silently directing the living toward his own remains.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: Is one of the reasons the story has endured.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: Fisher's body was eventually found buried near a creek, and Warall was tried, convicted, and hanged for the murder.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: The criminal case is real, and historical records document the prosecution.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: But the ghost story has an important complication.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: The surviving trial report does not include testimony about an apparition.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: Historical research indicates that the supernatural version entered print later.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: And the details of the reported witness differ between retellings.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: So the careful version of the story is this a real murderer became attached to a haunting legend in which the victim's ghost pointed toward the evidence.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: The legend may preserve the old report or it may be a story that grew around an already mysterious crime.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: Either way, Fisher's ghost became a lasting part of local history.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: This one is kind of vague because it doesn't really give us proof that, well, really, if anything, that the person who killed him killed him.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um really anything.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of incredibly vague.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a really interesting ghost story.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think maybe the historical text gives us gives us way more.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: Or not historical text, like it's on a scroll or something.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um but yeah, I think the text probably gives us more, and I should probably go through it, but it doesn't really give us too much information as to how they connected the said killer to killing him.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I think we should replace that story with something else.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: That one would all he did was point.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_04: Mm-hmm.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure that that yeah, right?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that one was useful.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_04: Uh-uh.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, Wales is in Europe.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: This was New South Wales, which is in Australia, just in case you didn't know.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: I thought it was in the UK.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: I thought Wales was in the UK locally.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm saying.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, is in the UK, is in Europe.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: But um you read it was New South Wales.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's completely different.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's one is one word, one is three words.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Lord.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's like somebody being like Baja California, and they're like, oh, I thought California was in the United States.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you just did.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just uh I rebuke it.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: You can't tell me.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm usually the one that needs your mind to help straighten that out.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: This time I had to help you.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: I just say I rebuke it.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: True story.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: I have another story that I could read.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: You mean read it real quick?
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: What is it?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: What's the story?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: The Ghost of Anne Walker, a 17th century English murder case.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Is it for real though?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this one is old, old, though.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's in the 1600s.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, let's do it.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: So this story is called The Ghost of Anne Walker, a 17th century English murder case.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: And this one, y'all, is old, old.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: When I say old, I mean ancient.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: Now this one is in front this is in the county of Durham in England, across the pond again.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: Hey! In 1631 through 1632.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: And in this one, a miller allegedly received the location of a murderer from the victim's apparition.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: The story concerns a woman named Anne Walker and two men, John Walker and Mark Sharp.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: The account was published by John Webster in the displaying of supposed witchcraft, 1677, and subsequently repeated in historical works.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, now here's what the historical account claims.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: A miller named James Graham, also called Grime, allegedly encountered an apparition bearing five wounds to the head.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: It identified itself as Anne Walker and said she had been murdered with a mining pick and thrown into a coal pit.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: The apparition reportedly supplied the location of the body and identified where the pick and bloodstained clothing had been concealed.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: According to the account, Graham eventually reported this information to a magistrate.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: The search allegedly uncovered a body and items matching the description, and both accused men were tried, convicted, and executed.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: The eviden or what evidence survives.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: The story is unusually detailed for an old apparition account.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: Webster's 1677 publication recounts the encounter in discovery and discusses information attributed to men who reportedly knew about the trial.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: It also refers to a letter from the judge that author or that the author said he had once seen but subsequently lost.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: The last point is important.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: The published narrative does not give us a surviving original police report, um, a verified forensic file or judge's original letter to independently authenticate the apparition story.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: Later accounts also show discrepancies in the details and date as well.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: It says um the assessment is worth presenting to historical account as an alleged ghost-assisted murder investigation.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it doesn't give a lot of, I guess, proof and backstory unless you read the um the real historical account.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um but yeah, that's my story.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna close off with one more.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Are you ready for this?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: In an audio recording, he played at his first degree murder trial.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: It says that he confessed to killing a woman, Jennifer Stewart, uh, in a Vaneer parking lot.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what that is.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: We need to research that.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Won't you research that and tell me what a van V-A-N-I-E-R parking lot is?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: That sounds weird.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I've never heard of that before.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: On the night of August 19th, 2010.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, what are my family members' birthdays?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's sad.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so basically, just for anybody who doesn't know, when people confess to murder, they can't take your word for it, put you in jail, and convict you based on that, basically.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: You have to tell proof of what only you would know as the murderer, because there are people out there that have mental health issues that will admit to doing crimes they didn't do.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: So this is why this is interesting.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I was kind of surprised when I was reading this because it's like, oh, the police didn't believe them at first.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, what?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then I okay, it makes sense because they can't they can't just believe people because people will admit to anything, which that's just shocking to me.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one of the things that this is makes this story really interesting, is that they didn't believe him.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: But then he was able to actually reveal key details only the killer would know.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: But he lied at first.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like he either didn't like he didn't tell the truth at first.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was like he initially told the detective that he used a military knife to kill her when in fact she was killed with an axe.
• 34:46
  unknown: Oh wow.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: So the so this story gets interesting, right?
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's not a straight through story.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, what is actually going on here?
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: He later said he used an axe and agreed to give the detective a more complete confession.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: The investigator actually said, I'm not convinced that you're telling me the truth.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now it makes sense.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because he he's giving false information.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you saying you killed her with something she wasn't killed with?
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: So this is another reason why they can't take people's word for it.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you can't give proof, then you might end up jail for a while, but we can't do anything until we get additional proof that you you actually did it.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's fascinating.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you decide to say I did it and then lie about how I did it?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's so weird.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I had this idea if I killed someone, I'd be a really good rapper.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: People talk about that killer stuff, said Dow.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: So he starts rapping in the police interview room whenever he was left alone.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: Why people confess to stuff they didn't do?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because they want to be, they want to get clout in some area.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: He thinks he's gonna be a better rapper.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe he thinks it's gonna get him into the rap community, not realizing that a lot of these rappers are super rich, vegans, they haven't committed a crime in their life, right?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: So this is really he said he went to smoke a joint on a bike path, and he was haunted by Stuart's ghost.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Flying by him, an image he told police we he would see a couple of times a day.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: So just just to grasp this, he kills somebody and he's smoking a jump joint.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: He's he's paranoid, he's afraid he's gonna get caught.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: He said it's the first time he ever killed somebody, so now I'm wondering does that mean he killed other people or if it was just her?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: But he went to go smoke on a bike path, and then he sees the woman he kills ghost flying by him, and it's an image that he ends up seeing a couple of times a day, she just keeps showing up.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: And apparently that scared him enough to want to run to the police and decide that he wants to turn himself in.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: And my I guess my question is is she that scary, or is that your psychological, your feelings of guilt?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because that doesn't feel like a ghost story to me.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: You're getting high.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: You could hallucinate.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're you're sick enough to actually kill someone in this lifetime, if your mind is is sick enough to want to take somebody out just to be a better rapper, of course you could have something going on in your mind where you're being haunted by somebody's ghost, even if that ghost isn't even worried about you.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if I call that a real ghost story, but I thought it was interesting.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: It does sound really, really interesting.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds like it could be so many things.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like he it like he was trying to sell somebody's soul to the devil for fame.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like, wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, wait.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: Wait, hold on.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: Did you did you Did you just say he was trying to sell somebody else's soul for fame?
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like he was trying to he tried to uh uh find a demon in the ghetto and was like, hey, if I sell you this heifer, will you give me some fame?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: And the demon was like, Yeah, and then he went crazy instead, or he did some crap.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: But it sounds like he was either really stupid or he did something real crazy and didn't know what the hell was happening, or he was already like crazy or schizophrenic or something and found somebody to murder because who raps in a police station?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm just saying there's a lot of legends in there, there's a lot of opinions, so you might want to make that clear.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know what you're talking about, you're just saying stuff, right?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_04: Uh-uh.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: You said trying to sell somebody else's.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: He was probably trying to sell her soul on discount.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because normally when you hear about it, that person is trying to sell their soul for fame, or they're trying to sell their soul for wealth, right?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you said he was trying to sell somebody else's soul, which listen, there are religions out there where I think they try to sacrifice other people to get, so it makes sense.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: It was, and that was just funny.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: So the idea that he may be trying to sell somebody else's soul.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's not funny the fact that if he did believe that, that he did it, and this is again, this is just theoretically, allegedly, there's no facts here.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: But uh I mean that I mean that's a possibility.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard plenty of stories where people start trying to get into that the black magic aspect of things, and they lose their minds in the process.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I hear that a lot.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: So the spell goes wrong and you end up losing your mind, and now you're crazy.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that might that I mean, who knows?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that is always a possibility when we're talking about the paranormal and the spiritual aspects of things, just like I have seen people who might be considered crazy, schizophrenic, talking to themselves, walking down the street, yelling at the air, and I actually see something walking beside them.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you never know.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: You never know.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: But the question was can the spirit what's the question?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: Can a spirit solve their own murder?
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they can.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if they care enough, they'll come in and tell you their name and then skedaddle.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: Or bother the hell out of you until you get caught.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: I guess if that's what's really happening, he doesn't strike me as somebody who was necessarily experiencing the paranormal.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, just tapping into it, I think he had something else going on.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's you know, that's just my theory, just my opinion.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: There are no facts, no spirits are talking to me, telling me whether it was true or not.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's just very interesting.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's an interesting story as far as what he had going on mentally, because I think every aspect of this story may be telling us that he had something mental happening or going on.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: So he was having a crisis.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he thought if he killed somebody, he'd be a better rapper.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: That tells you something's not something's not, you know what I mean?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like something's not clicking already.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think I it's a far leap to assume that he has something going on that I could theorize that maybe he had something else going on that had nothing to do with somebody's spirit.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: But at the listen, at the same time, if you have a crack in reality, then maybe a spirit would find it easier to get in, and maybe she did haunt him, and that's what happened.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: Blue hammers.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: No facts, just uh just a very interesting story about the supernatural, and a little bit of crack.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that's the way he was smoking, but you never know.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: You never know.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, that's the end of our episode.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think we answered the question uh to my satisfaction.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: No scientist is gonna listen to this and be like, oh my god, they're so accurate.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm just saying I'm saying they've already done the work, they've already documented things, and we already have some idea that the spirit world can communicate with the living, and so therefore, they should be able to solve their own murder cases if that's what they want to do.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I think most of them are, you know, once you die, if you hear anybody talk about a near-death experience, usually they're having a very good experience on the other side.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want to be here anymore, they don't want to be worried about the stuff here anymore.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: They want to be, they don't even want to come home.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, I'm I'm home.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: This is where I want to stay.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: Earth is a temporary situation.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: I once they they don't look back, they don't care.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: What are your last thoughts?
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: I definitely believe it's possible that they would solve their own crimes or or yeah, solve their own murders or disappearances or whatever.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's been documented so many times.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thoroughly convinced that it's possible.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: And what's the miracle in this situation, in this story?
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: The miracle is that uh a mediumship again, um, but also that there's proof that spirits or the spiritual world exists and that there is life beyond death.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good miracle.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good miracle for that's a good miracle for us that are still living because we definitely need hope knowing that there's more to life than life.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: The best way I can put it, there's more than just this reality, and that we have a place that we can move on to and and still interact with the known world.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: Good miracle.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was awesome.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Hey.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, so next episode, are we coming back with uh have we been obsessed with true crime since biblical times?
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: I love I'm excited for that one.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: I want to I want to learn about some Jesus some more.