Latest / Send & Grow by SparkLoop / Deep Dives & Community Ties: Unlocking Newsletter Growth — with Chenell Basilio of Growth In Reverse
Transcript
- Ep 38 - Chenell Basilio === Chenell Basilio: [00:00:00] The first issue was awesome because I had a hundred percent open rate. So, you know, I'll never, I'll never top that again. But of course, but after that I just, I started kind of doing what Mario was doing and he was posting on Twitter, and so I started like just commenting on other people's posts, and that's how I got those first three subscribers before I even sent it. Dylan Redekop: Welcome to the Send and Grow podcast. I'm your host, Dylan Retica. In my day job at Sparkly, I spent all my time analyzing how the best newsletter operators and media brands in the world grow and monetize their audiences. I get a behind-the-scenes look at how they're growing their newsletters and driving revenue, and there is so much to learn from their success and from their mistakes. With this podcast, you get that access too. Every week I sit down with a different guest from industry experts to successful operators, and we go deep on the stuff that you need to know so you can become really effective at growing and monetizing your newsletter. Today on the Send and Girl Podcast, I sit down with Chanel Bazilio, the Brains Behind Growth in Reverse, a weekly [00:01:00] newsletter that reverse engineers how Big Newsletters grew from Zero to. 50,000 subscribers and beyond. Chanel sent her first edition to four people in December of twenty-Twenty-two, but growth in reverse has caught fire since recently surpassing 30,000 subscribers. And the main reason, well, it has a lot to do with the 20 plus hours of research she puts in every week to create each edition. And until recently, Chanel was doing all this on top of her full-time business, running Facebook ads for clients. In our chat today, Chanel explains why she started growth in reverse. We dive into her research process and how she's grown, the newsletter and her advice for those. Thinking about starting a long-form, research-based newsletter. Chanel, welcome to the podcast. I'm so glad to have you. Can you start off by telling us a bit about yourself and about your newsletter? Chenell Basilio: Thanks for having me, Dylan. I appreciate it. So I write the Growth and Reverse newsletter. It's essentially where I research creators every week. Um, I'll spend like 20 [00:02:00] plus hours a week going through all of their past content and kind of figure out how they grew their own newsletter so that I can. Kind of just share that in a deep dive. And then I send that out to my audience every Sunday. Um, so I started that in December of 2022, so it's been a little over a year now. And yeah, it's just the most fun I've had. Dylan Redekop: That's awesome. Yeah. Well, let's, let's take it back to kind of the. Beginning the inception of growth in reverse. You know, the, I find the best ideas are the ones I think to myself like, uh, like, why didn't I come up with that? Or why didn't I think of that? It's kinda like those things, like the best ideas are like hiding in plain sight. I think that's why comedians are so good at what they do is because they like, they highlight the obvious things that we all kind of know and, and just make us like so painfully. Obviously we all laugh. It's, it's super funny and I, I find that with content as well where it's like something is. Really well executed. Really well done. You're kind of like, yeah, of course it exists. Why didn't it exist before? And I feel like that about growth and reverse. It's like, yeah, let's break down how these people have, you know, grown these, [00:03:00] these newsletters really successfully. And let's dive deep into it. So first of all, it's like your newsletter is awesome. It's so good. Thank you. But I want to know like. And I know you shared this before, um, but for those who don't know, can you tell us like what was the inception of growth in reverse? What, what sparked the idea? Chenell Basilio: Yeah, sure. So I've, I've been helping clients with paid ads for like years and years. Since 2017. I actually left my day job, so I was doing that and I've. Seen clients that have made like tens of thousands of dollars overnight just from an email list. And I was like, okay, that's cool, but that's like they have this business on the back of it. But then I found this guy named Mario Gabrielli, who has his own newsletter. And it's seriously just, that's it. The content is how he's making money. And I was like, wait, how is this guy making money? And so I've heard him say or saw him write that he had been making 300 grand. In his first year. Wow. As a newsletter creator. And I was like, okay, what? Like there's something here. So I started looking and I was like, how did this guy grow his newsletter so [00:04:00] quickly? And I just started researching on the internet and I found a bunch of like piecemeal stuff, but I couldn't find one place that had like the whole story of like how he started what he did and went behind the scenes of like everything. So I just started. Diving down the rabbit hole. And I did that research and I was like, actually, let me see if other people wanna read this. Because if I couldn't find it, maybe somebody else couldn't either. And it just took off from there. So it was no, there was no grand strategy behind it. It was just kind of doing the research that I wanted. I. Read. Dylan Redekop: It's like you are like solving your own problem, and sure enough, you are solving little did you know, you know, thousands of other people's problems as well. Exactly. So December, 2020, uh, sorry. No, 2022. Sorry. 2022. Yep. Yeah. So just over a year ago. It's February now of 2024 mm-Hmm. You launched your first edition to. A bunch of people or Chenell Basilio: four people. One of them was my own email Dylan Redekop: address. Yes. Amazing. Yes. Amazing. So three people and yourself. Yes. So that's, that's great because we've had people, uh, we just [00:05:00] interviewed Tom Alder last, uh, we just published his episode last week from Strategy Break Johnson, and he had 5,000 people with his first edition. So he really like built up that, that subscriber base before sending out his first edition. And I. I admire people who will publish too. You know, the first few people on their list are like their husband or partner or, uh, mother, mother, daughter, whatever it might be like. Yeah. Almost. Uh, you know, your closest, um, your closest friend. So, so kudos to sending out the first edition. So thanks. How was that? I guess I shouldn't say how was it received? 'cause there was only about three people receiving it. But like how did, how did it go from, you know, you sent out your first edition to four people with this deep dive, 20 plus hours of research. How did you go about sharing that around and how did it kind of catch, catch Chenell Basilio: some steam? Yeah. Well, I mean, the first issue was awesome because I had a hundred percent open rate. So, you know, I'll never, I'll never top that again. But of course, but after that I just, I started, um, kind of doing what Mario was [00:06:00] doing and he was posting on Twitter, and so I started like just commenting on other people's posts, and that's how I got those first three subscribers before I even sent it. Okay. Yeah. And then from there, just I kept doing the same thing and then I started writing threads about each deep dive that I had created. And those were pretty well received, even though the first couple probably got a handful of likes. Right. Like over time I learned how to do it. Yeah. So that was a huge, a huge piece in growing Dylan Redekop: it in the beginning. So mostly just like just Twitter? Yeah. Social platform. For distribution and stuff like that. Exactly, yeah. Okay, cool. So let's talk about, we talked a little bit more about growth, you know, what you've done since then, but I wanted to actually dive into the content itself first because I think, you know, your big, in my opinion, pillar of success for growth Reverse is like the high quality depth of research that you do, right. Like, when I read the first edition, what caught my attention were one, the depth of research that you did. Like how, how long the article is. And, you know, quantity is not always quality, but you know, in your case it is. And so you had really good depth of [00:07:00] research. You, you know, included your own graphics where you often have the growth charts, right, that you can track from, from the research. Um, detailed screenshots. And then the other thing that struck me, not right away, I should say, but eventually was like. You're not charging for this. So this is like a lot of work, a lot of time, and there's gotta be, you know, some kind of payoff I would imagine that you were planning on. So let's start with the research. Like I'd love to know how you went about doing your first few, um, deep dives on, on these. People who are growing their newsletters? Yeah, Chenell Basilio: it's a good question. Um, so the first one, the one I wrote on Mario Gabrielli, it took me, probably, that one probably took me like 60 hours because I was trying to like figure out like the template and the content that would go into it, right. Since then, it doesn't take that long for all of them mostly, but that was kind of me figuring out like what would go into each one, how to. Create those graphics and that kind of thing. And then from there, like as I was doing research on Mario, I found Nathan Ball who was the second deep [00:08:00] dive that I wrote. And so it was just like kind of finding these people through actually doing the research. But yeah, it's just, it's really just like I. Starting with Google, starting with, you know, searching on podcast apps to try and find interviews and that kind of thing. And then from there it kind of takes its own shape for each one. It, it never ends up being the same. Right. It just kind of goes from what I find in those first initial couple hours of research. Dylan Redekop: Like if only there's just like one linear path for, for all of them. Right? Yeah. It'd be so much easier. Yeah. So you leverage, um. Google search up any, any mentions they have in the SEO with their names and stuff like that. And then social media as well. Do you, I I believe you do some, some work on there. Yeah. So I'll Chenell Basilio: use, um, I think it's TweetHunterX still. Okay. Yeah. Or Pro. I don't know what, they changed it a couple times and they'll probably have to change it again 'cause it's not Twitter anymore, but. So I use that tool pretty regularly for Twitter, but if the person isn't active on Twitter, it gets a little more challenging. Uh, LinkedIn doesn't have a great search engine, so that one is very difficult, but [00:09:00] it's doable so that I'll just use like Google and then type like their name and then LinkedIn at the back and you can kind of usually find some posts of theirs that way. But yeah, it's just really mostly Google and just using like advanced search type of Dylan Redekop: tools that I find. And how do you organize. All the content? That's Chenell Basilio: a good question. I usually create like one note and I'll just like dump all of the things that I come across into it. Okay. And that's not really like a tactical thing, it just, I find that when I actually write it into some place, I remember it. So as I'm going through and writing the posts, I might not actually go back to that note that I created that often, but. I will remember it based on being like, oh yeah, I remember I wrote that down. Right. And so I'll, I'll just use that. But yeah, so it's just a big like dump of notes into one document and uh, go from there. Dylan Redekop: Wow. Okay. Okay, cool. And so how long does you know on average each edition take you sort of from start to finish the days now you've been doing it for what, A Fiftiesh editions? Chenell Basilio: Yeah. I [00:10:00] think I'm on 55 or something. Wow. Okay. So it depends. It depends on, you know, like I wanna do one on Ali Abdal, but he has hundreds, if not, I don't know. Lots of, lots of content. Yeah. So videos, interviews, that kind of thing. So that one's gonna take me a while, but then there's some that only take. You know, only I say, uh, like 15, 20 hours. So it's a little less of a lift on those ones, but some of those are actually way more insightful than the bigger names. Um, so I actually enjoy those more often. But, you know, it's, it's a good balance to have like a bigger name with like, you know, someone, people don't Dylan Redekop: even know. Yeah. I I think especially when it's like this number that's sort of unfathomable, like, oh, they, you know, got 300,000 subscribers in like a year or something, you know, something like that. And it's like, what? Who is this person? Yeah. That's when it's like. Somebody who's more well known, like Ali, Abdallah, it would be like, oh yeah, okay. Well, or Mr. Beastie, I mean, like, you know, to the nth degree, the, if you were doing write up on those, I'm sure people would be interested in it, but it's, I think the ones that are lesser known that I [00:11:00] wouldn't be surprised that get a lot more attention. And then, yeah. Do those, do those sort of quote unquote, uh, lesser known people, do they ever reach out to you and, and. I, I guess, thank you for sharing, for getting the, the exposure or how, like what is that, like, how do you, when you're gonna be publishing one of these articles on one of these newsletters and writers, how does the end, I guess, product land Chenell Basilio: with them? Yeah, it's usually very well received. I haven't had someone come back and be like, take this down or anything like that. Hmm. Um, there has been one person who just said like, you know, I'd, I'd rather not have that one thing out there just because their audience is a little more sensitive. But, um, other than that, like everybody's been super thankful. A lot of people, even the bigger names, I'll reach out and be like, this is one of the more accurate ones I've seen. Hmm. Written. Thank you. Um, and that always feels good. 'cause when you spend that kind of time, like. Digging into someone's life, A, it feels creepy. Like I know way more about these people than they probably want someone to know. Right. Um, but B, the fact that they found it like impactful and [00:12:00] useful and they're like, oh yeah, I forgot I did that. Like, that's Dylan Redekop: pretty cool. Yeah. I, I would think it's just a sign of that your research is, is that. Your process. Is that good when you're finding stuff that they're like, oh yeah, this was online, but I don't want you to publish, basically. Can you read back to this, uh, this section of the, of the newsletter? That's, that's funny. Yeah. So I think, you know, one thing that's also interesting with growth in reverse is it is the long form content, right? It's um, it's not just like, uh, a bite size overview. It's, it's pretty in. One thing that often is said is like, there's no attention span these days. People are just like scrolling through TikToks and you know, swiping every, every five seconds if something doesn't catch their eye. But there clearly is still, you know, an appetite for long form content as your success has proved, you know, long form podcast is still very popular. So what do you think is kind of the, I know you can't just put this into a nice little package, but what do you think is like a general recipe for a successful long form newsletter? Like growth in Reverse? Chenell Basilio: Yeah, I think that. There's a couple pieces to [00:13:00] it. I think you have to have a specific audience or type of person or type of content you're writing to. Like something for, for me, like I don't have a specific type of person, but if someone doesn't have a newsletter or they're not like building an audience online, they're not gonna be interested. And that's okay. Yeah. But for those people that are, they're. Going to find something interesting that they could potentially use in their day to day, which is cool. So I'm saving them time, like, yes, they could find this stuff elsewhere, but it's gonna take you like hours of digging through the internet and kind of just thinking about how this strategy worked and that kind of thing to actually put it into use. So I think that. Either you're saving someone time, uh, you're helping them, you know, better their business or you're just entertaining them. Mm-Hmm. Like I have a bunch of like podcasts that I'll listen to for like hours. And then when I see people that are like, oh, I'm gonna create a podcast, it's only gonna be 23 minutes long, and I'm like, I'm not gonna listen. 'cause I like those longer form things. Like you get into the nitty gritty with those. And so it's really, it's a different kind of content and like, I think people probably like both like a mix. [00:14:00] But with the long form stuff, if you're not actually like providing some sort of benefit for them, it's not really gonna land Dylan Redekop: very well. Yeah. Like, um, solving a problem, which is really what I think your content does for a lot of people is like, I have this problem of growing an audience or growing a newsletter and here is a bit of a. Roadmap of how somebody did it. Maybe it's somebody who's even writing content similar to mine or at the same starting point, or was it the same starting point that I'm at now and this is how they did it. So I think that is, that is pretty huge. Do you think it would be as well received if you, if you didn't add in. You know, all the, the visuals and graphics. So imagine that takes a decent amount of time as well doing all that stuff. Maybe less time now than it used to, but if it was just like a research document, uh, do you think it would be as well received? No. No. Absolutely Chenell Basilio: not. Because I think with the long form, like you need some kind of visual. Component to it, right? Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. Like if it was just all words, A, it wouldn't be complete. Because a lot of the things I'm talking about, I'm like, okay, you [00:15:00] have to see the screenshot of how they did this. Yeah. Next to this other thing that they did. And then you kind of get the context, but without that, it's like it falls flat. So I think without those. At the same time, like the timelines that I do, people often are like, wow, those are so cool. Like, how did you do that? Yeah. Even like Ben from Ben's, Bites reached out and he was like, how did you create this timeline? He's like, it's accurate, but how'd you do it? And I'm just like, well, you know, like I just go through and I pull out these data points and put them in a chart. Yeah. So it's just Dylan Redekop: funny. Well, I mean, it's impressive. 'cause often you'll have their social media growth. Right on these charts. Mm-Hmm. We'll reference one in the show notes for people who wanna take a look. And then you'll also reference, um, usually the newsletter growth, right? Yeah, exactly. And, and plot them out over time. And I look at them, I'm like. Did she like actually ask the person because he seemed to be quite accurate. And I know you're, you're kind of doing a bit of speculation and basing it on, you know, interviews they've done where they've shared growth or you've yet used the, I think, the way back machine you've mentioned in past interviews as well, right? Yep, exactly. To find out how, [00:16:00] how people are maybe changing a landing page, like from join 10,000 subscribers to maybe now we are at. 50,000 or whatever that might be. Exactly. So one question I think that, you know, that I had was, I might have even asked you this, why don't you actually interview these people? Because you don't, right. You just all go on on what's available Chenell Basilio: online. Yeah. I mean, I think at first it started out that I didn't have the connections to do so. If I were to reach out to Sahil Bloom when I had three subscribers, he would've been like, absolutely not. Dylan Redekop: Right. Uh, he might not have even replied. Chenell Basilio: Right, exactly. Yeah. But at this point, like I probably could get him to like. Be interviewed. Mm-Hmm. But I think there is something about. Like recency bias and people thinking that, you know, maybe something had a bigger impact on their growth than it did. And I'm not gonna sit here and say that my research is perfect and like everything I find is like the way that they grew perfectly. But I think from me going back in time and like listening to their interviews from four years ago versus what they say now, I'm like, [00:17:00] oh wait. But they're like forgetting that they did this other thing. Oh, wow. Because they've just talked about it so many times. Or they like, I think the brain like kind of makes you forget what you did in the past. So that's one piece of it. That is a reason that I still just do this as like third party research. Um, I do like fully would love to start interviewing people, like after writing deep dives and kind of get, I. Their take on like what they're doing now or maybe what they would've done differently. Right. But I think the deep dive format will stay the same. Yeah. Like moving forward. Just because of that. I think that there are things that, you know, people forget that they did or they don't realize how big of an impact it probably did have. Yeah. Dylan Redekop: So, yeah. No kidding. That's a really good point because I, I think I've experienced the same, the same thing as well. Just like thinking I was doing something when I started my newsletter, you know, several years back and. And then actually going back into the, you know, my, my tweets and my post back then, like, oh, right. I forgot. I, I totally forgot. I was like, DMing people to subscribe to my newsletter or, you know, doing whatever it was. So That's a good point. Exactly. And that's, uh, and you're right about the, you know, the social [00:18:00] clout if you will. You know, that you three subscribers versus 30,000 or whatever there might be. There's a, there's a bit of a difference there too. Yeah. Cool. So. Potentially maybe interviews in the future, but as of right now, you're gonna kind of stick to the way, the way you're doing things. Yeah. Nice. Okay, so what would be. I mean, we kind of, we kind of talked, touched on this a little bit. What, do you have any, any advice or like a number one piece of advice for somebody who wants to start publishing, like a long form research newsletter or maybe who already is and is struggling to, to grow it or to keep Chenell Basilio: going? Yeah, I think, I think with long form, um, Dylan Redekop: we'll be right back to this conversation after a quick word from our sponsor. Last Advertisement: year we launched the most generous affiliate program in the newsletter space. Send just a handful of newsletters our way and you can unlock tens of thousands of dollars every month. And now we're turning up the heat. We are sending our top-earning affiliate partner with a plus-one on a free all-inclusive trip to [00:19:00] Cancun. You can win. Just share Spark loop with newsletter operators before April 30th. They get free access to the most popular newsletter recommendations network, and unlock millions of dollars in easy extra revenue. By recommending the world's best newsletters, you get a 30% commission win-win. It's that easy. See you on the Dylan Redekop: beach. And now back to the episode. Do you have any, any advice or like a number one piece of advice for somebody who wants to start publishing, like a long form research newsletter or maybe who already is and is struggling to, to grow it or to keep going? Yeah, I think, Chenell Basilio: I think with long form, um. I don't know. I feel like with any content these days, you kind of just have to do your own thing. Like it's so easy to look at someone else and be like, they're doing this, I should do the same thing. And it's like, okay, but A, it's gonna be really hard to catch up to them 'cause they're already, you know, months or years ahead of you. Mm-Hmm. And B, it's like you're not gonna be as interested in that [00:20:00] thing. Like you might think you are, but you probably won't be unless you do it for a long enough time. So I'd say find something you're really passionate about or something that just. It's something you think about often and just start creating content around that. I think a lot of people get hung up that what they choose to write about today has to be what they write about for the next 10, 20 years, when it's not the case at all. Like you can pick something and in six months be like, you know what? I'm not really enjoying this and just change what you're gonna be writing about. But I think if you start. And just try something. Mm-Hmm. I think you'll either find that you really enjoy it or find that you don't, and then you don't have to worry about like, oh, what if I did that thing? 'cause you already tried it. Right. Dylan Redekop: So, yeah. Yeah. No, that's a really good point. And I think there's a lot of pressure on people to be like, you know, the, the whole consistency thing that is quite often, you know, battered around on social media, like be consistent and consistency is a key. Which, you know, there's truth obviously to that, but at the same time, like, yeah, you feel like a failure if you like. Tried something, you didn't like it and now you're like kind of torturing yourself to [00:21:00] stick with it because you're like, oh, but I gotta be consistent, even though I kind of absolutely do not wanna do this. Exactly. So I think there's gotta be that balance there. Yeah, Chenell Basilio: yeah. Consistency is definitely important, but you gotta find what you enjoy first. That's Dylan Redekop: right. It's I point being consistent. It's something you absolutely. A bore. Yeah, exactly. So let's go back to growth quickly because um, we touched on it earlier. And has anything changed in terms of growing the newsletter from when you first started? You know, just maybe posting threads to what you're doing now? Chenell Basilio: Yeah, I mean, I think in the beginning it was a lot of Twitter, like I was mentioning, a lot of social media replying to people. Anyone that shared the posts, I still do that. Like I still try to reply to everyone who shares or comments or Mm-hmm. You know, tags me and stuff. But honestly, like the biggest thing in the beginning that I did, and I still try and do this, but in the beginning I would look at my spark loop list of subscribers like. I dunno, four or five, 10 times a day, if not more. Um, and be like, oh, who's signing up? Who's signing up? And then I'd like, you know, you might recognize a name or something, and [00:22:00] you're like, whoa, that's cool. And you can like, I mean, they're on your email list. You can email them and be like, Hey, thanks for signing up. Right. The the other thing is that, like, on that list of subscribers, and I'm sure you can find this in like Google Analytics and other stuff too, but you can see like. Where did these people come from? And if I started seeing like, you know, two people coming from the same place, I'd be like, huh. And I'd like go find the email that was sent that maybe linked to a blog post or mentioned to me and I'd go and reach out and thank that person that sent those people. Even if it drove like one subscriber, like that's, that's still a big deal. Um, and I think people really enjoyed. Like the fact that I was like reaching out and thanking them, even though, you know, they might have an email list of 25 people, but if they sent one person my way, it was worthwhile. So that is getting harder to do now because just more and more subscribers come in every day. Mm-Hmm. And it's hard to see like where they come from, but I think that was probably the most impactful thing that I did early on. For growth for sure. And it wasn't intentional. It was just like, oh, I wanna thank this person. Right? But now, like looking back, I'm like, oh yeah, [00:23:00] that probably really helped. Dylan Redekop: It wasn't like, it wasn't this like strategic like, oh, if I thank them right then they'll be like indebted to me or anything like that. It was just out of right. You know, genuine, sincere. Um, thanks so, which is great. But did you notice that when it came time, when you posted, you know, in the future, even if, um, it had nothing to do with that person who you, who shared your stuff in the past, did you find that making that connection with them, I guess, helped them or created some kind of, basically they wanted to support you that much more because you had thanked them in the past and reached out and that sort of thing? Like, did you notice, was there an uptick in that or did you notice that Chenell Basilio: at all? Yeah, I think so because a lot of creators these days like. And even me included now I've, you know, you're getting so many emails, it's like you can't reply to all of them. I try to, but it's not like perfect. Um, so if you don't hear back from someone, it's kinda like, ugh. But if someone like takes the time and like, goes to find the email that you sent and be like, whoa, you sent me like three [00:24:00] subscribers. Hey, thanks. I really appreciate it. Glad to have you as a subscriber. Like, that's right. It's just different people don't do that generally. Yeah. So it just makes you stand out and then you're building a community Dylan Redekop: as well. That's right. Of supporters and people who will go to bat for you if needed and, and that sort of thing. Right. Which is, and and it's a two-way street as well. Right. You'll, you'll support them and they'll support you. So that's, yeah, exactly. It's always good. We could use more of that in the world. I agree. So you recently quit, uh, doing what you were doing. You had mentioned earlier about doing. Paid ads since Twenty-seventeen, but you've kind of gone away from running paid ads for people to focus full time on growth in reverse, right? Yep, exactly. And so congrats. First of all, thank you on doing that. How did you come to that decision? Because that's kind of a, a big decision. Chenell Basilio: Yeah, I mean, I. I've been doing paid ads for so long, it just got to a point where it just didn't excite me as much anymore. And I could tell, like I was coming into the workday, like not excited, but when I work on growth in reverse, I was like always excited. So, right, there's that, that kind of thing [00:25:00] there is like, well that's probably a sign that I should probably, you know, transition into doing this instead of what I've been doing for so long. Um, so it just didn't light me up anymore and I just decided like it was time to make that move. And so I started helping people with like newsletter coaching instead, uh, to kind of like, like I was losing revenue from not taking on clients anymore. So I was trying to like kind of make that up in the newsletter space somehow. Um, and this is like way more fun than helping people with pay ads. Like, like helping someone grow their newsletter is so much more fun than, than Dylan Redekop: doing other stuff. So, yeah, I mean, I mean it's like what you're writing about, what you're researching about. Yeah. Kind of what your jam is. So that makes a lot of sense. So that's one way you're funding quitting, doing the, the paid ads thing. Mm-Hmm. How else are you monetizing with growth and reverse? Yeah, Chenell Basilio: so sponsorships have been, you know, the most consistent method of me getting income from this. Mm-Hmm. And I, I like that model because I don't have to ask people to pay me stuff. It's more of like a brand or, you know, a company doing that, which is. [00:26:00] I don't know. I've always gone back and forth on the paid newsletter front, but I just, I don't know, it doesn't feel right, so I probably won't do it, but maybe if I find a, a better way to do it, I will. It'll probably be more like community driven than paid newsletter driven, so, yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah, so sponsorships, coaching, and then I'd say, um, affiliates make up a little bit, so I'll link to, you know, people's courses or that kind of thing if Dylan Redekop: much. Each of those plays into your Chenell Basilio: revenue stream? Yeah. I would say sponsorships and coaching are probably equal at this point. So let's call it, I don't know, 40% each. Okay. And then affiliates and like. Yeah, I think that's pretty much it. Affiliates would be like 10. Yeah. Dylan Redekop: Okay. Yeah. Okay. You said you mentioned maybe possibly doing a paid newsletter if you went that route. Do you have any idea what that would look like? Chenell Basilio: I? don't, no. Um, I really, what I wanna do is do those interviews we were talking about, like behind. [00:27:00] Like in a community space. Okay. So instead of having it be like public facing interviews, it'd be more of like, Hey Justin Welsh, you wanna come on and share like your one thing that you're doing these days that is like more impactful than, you know Yeah. Sharing it publicly, right? Because I'm sure he doesn't wanna do that, but maybe he'll do it behind closed doors. Who knows? So I think it would be something more on along that lines, uh, and then maybe it's, you know, me going deeper into the. Stuff that I'm researching. Like there's a lot that I cut out of the deep dives that I write. Wow. So maybe it's including some of that. Um, yeah. I don't know. We'll see. Dylan Redekop: Very interesting. I think it's one of those things where it's like, from an outsider's perspective, it's kinda like there's people who are, in my opinion, charging for content that is far less. In-depth than what you're writing. And so it, for, for me, it's kinda like, well, there's an opportunity here to, you know, put the hours and hours that you put into this, into something, um, that's at least partially gated, but you have to feel right about it. Right? It's not something that you can just, you know, throw a subscription paywall on. So [00:28:00] yeah, I respect that decision. Maybe, maybe in due time though, I, I'll be, uh, I'll be watching. Well, thanks. In terms of, um, like you, Chanel. In reverse your name and newsletters, like anywhere you go. If you're, if you're talking about newsletters and you know, newsletter growth, you kind of, your name and growth in reverse have both kind of become synonymous with that term, at least in the circles that I run in on Twitter and LinkedIn and that sort of thing. So I think you've done a really good job, whether you've meant to or not, of building kind of this, this brand around your name. And I think you've surely done that by doing the research and putting out these, these high quality pieces that people are like eating up. Not because you're, you know, going on a hundred different podcasts and, you know, promoting yourself online all the time. I think you're just sharing your content, which is, which is great, and that speaks for itself. But what, what kind of doors and, you know, what has the last year been like? Really like getting your name out there, getting 30,000 subscribers, you know, I think 17,000 Twitter followers or so, [00:29:00] um, a bunch of, you know, LinkedIn followers as well. What does that kind of, all of a. Exposure in the spotlight been like for you? Yeah, it's Chenell Basilio: been, it's been weird 'cause I'm someone who likes to hide behind the computer, which is probably why I went with a deep dive format because I can just like sit in my room and, you know, tinker away on the keyboard for hours and hours every week. Right. So it's been, it's been interesting. I'd say the. The coolest thing is having people reply to my newsletters that I didn't even know were on my email list and these are like, you know, bigger entrepreneurs or VCs or that kind of thing that like I would never expect to be reading my content and I'm like, oh wow, okay. This is cool. So Wow. Yeah. I haven't been doing a great job taking advantage of all these, like, open doors, quote unquote, but it's, it's interesting to see. Dylan Redekop: Yeah, no, for sure. Well, I think the, the nice thing is you don't need to, you know, take advantage of it necessarily. I think the, you've built up this kind of almost public resume of, you know, the quality of work that you're, that you're creating. And when the opportunity, opportunity comes to, you know, take advantage of one of [00:30:00] those opportunities, I'm sure it'll be. A little easier now than it was maybe a year ago. Yeah. So what is, what does 2024 look like for growth in reverse and for yourself? Yeah. Um, Chenell Basilio: so I'll probably do more coaching. As I was saying, I really enjoy that I am gonna be speaking, um, at a couple of events, which is I. Interesting and terrifying at the same time. Yeah, I was Dylan Redekop: gonna say nerve wracking a bit. Yeah. Chenell Basilio: And I, the thing I really wanna do finally is like put out audio versions of the pot, of the deep dives because people keep asking for it. And I feel like it's gonna make the writing better. Like having me actually have to talk, like speak it out loud will probably make the writing better. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. And then other than that, I think just getting help with some of the research so that I can, you know, make these better. Start putting out more content and that kind of thing. Yeah. Dylan Redekop: Yeah. Because you're a one person team right now, right? Right. Which is a lot. So, you know, hiring a VA and, and that sort of thing could probably help with a few things for sure. Yeah, exactly. Nice. Well, it's super exciting. I'm, it was a long time coming and we're really glad to have you on Growth in reverse. We've [00:31:00] mentioned many times already, but, uh, let us know where people can sign up. For your newsletter and follow you on, uh, the social medias? Yeah, Chenell Basilio: just growth in Reverse.com is where you can sign up. And then I'm on Twitter. I need to get better about being on Twitter, but uh, Twitter is at Chanel co. So I'm sure we'll link that somewhere, but, we'll, yeah, my name's interesting to spell. So, Dylan Redekop: uh, LinkedIn, are you on LinkedIn Chenell Basilio: as well? Oh yes, I am on LinkedIn too. Just Chanel Dylan Redekop: Lio. Okay. Yep. Okay, very cool. We will make sure we link all of that in the show notes. Sean, thank you for coming on. It's been a pleasure and, um, wishing you all the best in 2024. Thanks, Dylan, I appreciate that. No problem. Take care. You too. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Send and Grow podcast. If you like what you heard, there are three quick ways that you can show your support. Number one, leave us a five star rating and review in the podcast app of your choice. Number two, email or DM me with some feedback with your questions or with suggestions for [00:32:00] feature episodes. And finally, number three, share your favorite quote from the episode on social media and tag both me and our guest. All of the links for that are available in the show notes and whatever option you choose. I am really grateful for your support. Thanks, and see you next week.