Latest / Jennifer Rothschild Show / #6: Why Christianity Is Still Relevant with Dr. Alister E. McGrath

Transcript

#6: Why Christianity Is Still Relevant with Dr. Alister E. McGrath · Jennifer Rothschild Show

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  People are asking how Christianity can help them to find meaning, how it can
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  really enable them to live a good life.
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  And they don't really want to talk all that much about, you know,
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  the rationality of belief.
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  What they want to know is, tell me the difference it's going to make to me.
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  And, you know, we all can tell them good things that will really
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  help them understand that.
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  But the rethinking we need to do is making sure we can answer those questions about
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  how our faith helps us live good lives, Helps us hope in the face of a suffering
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  world, and also helps us to find meaning and purpose.
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  Those are such wonderful things.
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  And the great news is they're all there waiting for us to unpack
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  them and unfold them.
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  And that's what Christianity is like.
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  Welcome to the Jennifer Rothschild Show.
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  I'm so glad you are here.
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  This is where thoughtful people come to grow.
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  And today, one of the most thoughtful people I have ever read is He is a
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  highly respected Christian scholar.
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  He's an author and a professor at— wait for it— Oxford University.
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  His name is Dr. Alister McGrath.
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  And y'all, he is used to very deep conversations about faith,
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  like whether he's in a debate with the New Atheists or in just helping people
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  understand the legacy of C.S. Lewis. Mm.
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  Dr. McGrath is passionate about inviting people, including you and me,
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  to consider or reappreciate the depth and the meaning of our Christian faith.
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  Oof, that's what we're gonna do today, and you are going to love this, mate.
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  So let's grow.
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  Well, hey people, I'm so glad you're here.
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  Wow, I hope you've had a good week. I've had a good week.
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  I thought I would bring 2 things with me to the microphone that you cannot see.
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  But there are 2 things that I keep on my desk.
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  Well, actually not on my desk anymore because I've knocked
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  them off too many times. I'll be honest.
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  I keep them on my shelf because they're tiny.
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  2 rocks.
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  Now let me tell you about these 2 rocks because it has something to do with what
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  we're going to talk about with Dr. McGrath today.
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  The first rock is a little bigger.
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  It's actually part of like a brick, a broken piece of brick.
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  And I got it the first time I went to Oxford, England.
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  Okay, so you may know if we've been friends for a while that like
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  Oxford is my happy place.
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  Well, when I'm in the States, Target, I'll be honest, is my happy place.
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  But when I get to travel internationally, I love Oxford, England.
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  In fact, I am convinced on the new earth, that's where the Lord's gonna let me live,
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  in the renewed, restored Oxford, England.
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  And so when I was there the first time, it was because I was studying C.S. Lewis
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  with the C.S. Lewis Foundation.
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  This dear man.
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  Kim Gilnett was kind of my mentor that week in teaching.
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  And he just a dear, he became a dear friend.
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  I just love this, this guy.
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  And so anyway, he knew what an affection I had for
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  C.S. Lewis and how much his works had meant to me.
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  And so on the very last day, he had me hold out my hand and then he
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  said, he put this like broken piece of brick in it.
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  And he said, do you know what this is?
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  I said, no.
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  He said, this came from near the foundation.
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  It's just a broken piece of brick from C.S. Lewis's home.
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  the kilns. Oh my goodness, y'all, I burst into tears.
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  It was so meaningful.
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  And so I have cherished that little piece of brick because it came
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  from C.S. Lewis's home.
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  And the Lord has just used C.S. Lewis so much in my life.
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  In fact, one of the first books I ever read about C.S. Lewis was
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  written by Alister McGrath.
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  Okay, so that's one rock.
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  Now, the other rock that I have on my shelf
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  is super meaningful because I got it another time when I got to go to Oxford,
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  England, when I was walking down what's called Addison's Walk.
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  It's there at Magdalen College where C.S. Lewis taught there in Oxford.
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  And so I was walking with my hubby, and it's just kind of a gravelly,
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  rocky path there at the college.
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  And the story goes that C.S. Lewis, one night when he was a professor and he
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  was still really grappling with Christianity, he was walking with his 2
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  friends, J.R.R. Tolkien and Hugo Dyson.
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  And they had already been discussing Christianity and how C.S. Lewis
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  was just so enamored by myths.
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  You know, he just loved the beauty of myth.
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  And a lot of the myths that he was so enchanted by were these myths that talked
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  about just these gods who would surrender themselves and die basically for
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  their people and rise again like Baldr.
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  Okay, so knowing that context, as they're walking that night,
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  again talking about Christianity, J.R.R. Tolkien basically just, you know,
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  challenged, um, just challenged C.S. Lewis to say, hey,
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  why is it That you can believe in these beautiful myths or not believe in them,
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  but why do they enchant your heart and your heart gravitates to them?
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  But you can't believe the -- what he calls the true myth
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  of the dying and resurrecting God, Jesus Christ, because all the other myths
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  that came before were merely shadows and echoes pointing to this true myth, the
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  reality of Christ stepping into our world.
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  Well, God used that conversation with friends.
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  Catch that.
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  God used that conversation with friends, among others, to really shape and draw
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  C.S. Lewis to understand and receive the truths of Christianity.
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  Okay?
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  Now, you need— this is why you need to read Alister McGrath's book,
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  because he tells the story better than me.
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  But I want you to hear the importance of what relationships are and how God
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  uses relationships to draw us to Christ.
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  So with that in mind, I do wanna introduce to you,
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  uh, to Dr. McGrath because, oh my gosh, he, he is, he's just an amazing man.
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  And not only has he taught, but he'll tell you in this conversation
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  that it's through relationships with students that he's found such meaning in
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  sharing his faith and in seeing faith come to life in relationships.
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  Okay.
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  So, but I gotta give you this formal bio because dude, Like, he is amazing, okay?
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  Alister McGrath, he discovered Christianity when he was
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  an undergrand— did I say undergrand?
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  He was grand, but he was an undergrad at Oxford University.
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  And y'all, it changed his life.
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  So, okay, check this out.
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  He received first-class honors in chemistry at Oxford.
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  Then he earned his first doctorate. Okay, did you hear that?
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  First doctorate in biomedical sciences, and then 2 others, which makes 3,
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  for those of you who are listening, 3.
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  So the 2 others were in theology and intellectual history.
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  Like, I barely know what that all means, okay?
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  But he started teaching at Oxford in 1983, and now he serves as a senior research
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  fellow at the Ian Ramsay Center for Science and Religion at Oxford.
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  Okay, all right, so can we be honest?
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  He probably scored a little higher than, than we did on our SATs.
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  But don't worry.
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  Oh, he is so warm and charming and makes all this so accessible, and he's wise.
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  And you're gonna love Dr. McGrath.
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  So let's listen in.
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  All right, Professor McGrath, it is an honor to speak with you.
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  As I told you before we got on mic, yours was the first book I read
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  on C.S. Lewis, and it just really shaped my, my love for Lewis.
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  So I'm really honored to get to speak to you today, and we're gonna talk about
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  your new book, Rethinking Christianity.
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  But before we do, I want, I want our people to get to know you a little bit.
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  I want to get to know you a little bit because my understanding is
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  you were a former atheist and you came to faith while you were studying
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  chemistry at Oxford University.
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  So take us to that part of your story and let us know a little bit
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  about that transition.
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  Well, that's right.
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  Yeah, I grew up in Northern Ireland and I was an atheist then.
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  I was really convinced that was the future.
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  It was back in the late 1960s and every intelligent person
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  seemed to be an atheist.
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  And I thought, hey, that's the way things are.
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  And also, I was a scientist.
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  So I thought, well, you know, science and religion don't mix.
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  Therefore, you know, if I'm a scientist, I have to be an atheist.
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  But of course, then I arrived at Oxford University to study chemistry.
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  And guess what happened?
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  I met some really articulate and really intelligent Christians.
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  They began to explain what their faith was all about.
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  I began to realize, you know, I've got this one wrong.
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  It's much more exciting and interesting than I had thought.
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  And really, I began to rethink everything.
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  And my friend said, this guy you might enjoy reading called C.S. Lewis.
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  I hadn't really heard of him very much.
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  I knew he'd written a book about lions, but that was about as far as it went.
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  But then I read Lewis and actually just Lewis really helped me
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  take off as a Christian.
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  You know, he really gave me encouragement to give me a framework to think.
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  And so that's really how I came to be a person of faith.
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  And I'm very grateful to my Christian friends and to C.S. Lewis
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  for helping me along the way.
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  Well, it is similar.
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  Your story and his mirror each other because it was there at Magdalen College
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  and his friends.
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  I mean, what a beautiful example.
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  And look now how God has used C.S. Lewis, how God has used you.
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  And so part of the way he is still multiplying and deepening
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  this message in you.
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  And by the way, I just love to— I wish we had time to go into all of it,
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  how faith and science are not mutually exclusive.
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  I mean, you've done so much work on that, which is such a gift to the body.
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  But we're going to talk about this new book, Rethinking Christianity.
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  Okay, so here's what I want to know, Professor.
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  What are you asking us to rethink?
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  Like, have we gotten something wrong?
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  No, we haven't done anything wrong.
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  It's just we haven't really appreciated Christianity for all it's worth.
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  And the kind of rethinking I'm asking us to do is to begin to think again about the
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  difference that Christianity makes to us.
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  Because one of the really interesting things is that people
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  are asking how Christianity can help them to find meaning, how it can really
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  enable them to live a good life.
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  And, and they don't really want to talk all that much about, you know,
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  the rationality of belief.
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  What they want to know is, tell me the difference it's going to make to me.
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  And, you know, we all can tell them good things that will really
• 10:34
  help them understand that.
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  But the rethinking we need to do is making sure we can answer those questions about
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  how our faith helps us live good lives, helps us hope in the face of a suffering
• 10:45
  world, and also helps us to find meaning and purpose.
• 10:48
  Those are such wonderful things.
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  And the great news is they're all there waiting for us to unpack
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  them and unfold them.
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  And Yes, it is. Absolutely.
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  And people, we can't share what we really know unless
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  we've really thought through it again.
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  Sometimes it's the peril of the familiar.
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  So, I appreciate the book giving us that chance to do that.
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  And one of the things you talk about in your book is you contrast
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  the difference between what you call moreness and lessness.
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  Okay, unpack what that means. Yeah.
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  Yeah, well, thank you for that.
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  I mean, basically, it's all about this idea that Western
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  culture is going through a period where it seems to have locked itself into a
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  completely inadequate, unhelpful, unsatisfying way of living and thinking.
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  And what I'm saying is, look, that's a vision of lessness.
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  Christianity gives us the vision of moreness.
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  It gives us a bigger vision of who we can be.
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  It gives a bigger vision of what the world's like and says,
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  let's bring God into the picture, because that changes everything.
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  And in many ways, what I'm saying is that we find that in Western culture,
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  there are so many people who are looking for something deep and satisfying,
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  and that they're being given all this junk food by secularism,
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  by materialism, and so on.
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  And we really need to help them see what Christianity can do to give them a bigger,
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  richer vision of life.
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  In short, more-ness, bigger vision of life,
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  because you and I both know what that is, and people want us to talk about that.
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  And that's why I think that's such an important idea.
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  Yeah, it is, because that's where our satisfaction really is.
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  And so, in a lot of your earlier stuff, Alister, you focused on— oh,
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  I don't know how to best say it, but maybe defending the rationality
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  of what we believe, of Christian belief.
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  But you have said that this new book that you've written,
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  you're talking about why that matters.
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  Like, what difference does it really make?
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  What difference this belief makes in our life.
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  So, why is— because both matter, so why the shift?
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  Well, I think I want to begin by just saying it really is important to help
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  people see that Christianity does make sense, that you're not an
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  idiot if you believe in God.
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  And those are very important things to say.
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  But the difficulty is that sometimes by defending the rationality of faith,
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  we're in effect giving people the impression it's just about ideas.
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  These ideas are okay.
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  But what I'm worried about is this, and I discovered this for myself
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  after the New Atheism movement, where I'd done a lot of work to,
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  in effect, defend the rationality of Christian faith.
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  And one of my friends said to me, look, Alister, you've been very, very good at,
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  you know, showing Christianity makes sense, but you're just
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  limiting it to ideas.
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  There's so much more to Christianity than that.
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  And so I began to say, right, let's talk about the difference
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  that Christianity makes to us.
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  Not just it's right and reasonable, but it really is utterly
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  transformative and trustworthy. Yeah.
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  And people like that a lot.
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  I remember one person said to me, look, Alister,
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  I used to think Christianity was true, but you've helped me realize it's real.
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  It really connects with me. It makes a difference.
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  It actually is transformative.
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  And that's a very important point to make.
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  And it's a big theme throughout this book.
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  And the good news is this, you don't need to have a PhD in
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  philosophy to defend Christianity.
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  You can say to people, look, let me tell you the difference this makes to my life.
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  And that's what people are really looking for.
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  They're looking for a life-changing, a transformative way of thinking and living.
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  That's what Christianity is.
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  And we don't need to give all these academic arguments.
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  We can simply say, look, my experience is this.
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  This might help you as you begin to explore your own
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  personal journey of discovery.
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  I love that because that's so unintimidating,
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  and especially coming from someone like you who has more terminal degrees than
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  probably I could count on one hand.
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  We do think in order to really defend, we need to know,
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  we need to have, we need to have the relationship with
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  Christ, not the relationship with the idea of Christ.
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  And so, I think your book helps us to just press into that.
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  And I appreciate it.
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  And one of the things you do is you really dive in.
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  Well, I'll put it this way.
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  C.S. Lewis has that concept of chronological snobbery,
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  and you deal with that in your book. It runs throughout your book.
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  So, Tell us what that is.
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  And because our culture is so obsessed with novelty and the next shiniest thing,
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  why is it that this— the historicity, the ancientness, the 2,000-year history of
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  Christianity— has such a strength in our lives right now rather than a liability?
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  Oh, I just love that question because it just cuts to the heart of
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  what this book is all about.
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  What Lewis is saying is, look, old ideas don't disappear because
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  they've been discredited. They just go out of fashion.
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  But someone with vision can bring them back into fashion and say, look,
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  can you see the difference they make?
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  And in many ways, that's one of the things Lewis does so well in his own writings.
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  He, in effect, helps people to see these ideas are not outdated, they're not wrong,
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  they are incredibly powerful and justified.
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  And in many ways, what my book is saying is really quite simple.
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  Christianity has been around for 2,000 years for a very good reason.
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  is able to speak to us deeply.
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  It's able to transform us.
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  It's able to give us something that nothing else is able to do.
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  So while many people say, oh, you know, 2,000 years old, that means it is just so
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  old and boring, I say to them, it's been around for 2,000 years because
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  it speaks truth to the human heart.
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  It's actually utterly transformative.
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  And what I'm saying to my readers is, let's, let's, let's regain
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  confidence in our faith.
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  The fact it's been around for so long is not an embarrassment.
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  It is a demonstration.
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  Here is something that really can change people's lives, capturing their
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  imaginations, transforming their hearts.
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  And it's that central idea: Christianity is not some transient movement.
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  You know, that's what we have in Western culture at the moment.
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  You know, cultural change is so rapid that you believe something today and
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  a year later it's out of date.
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  Christianity is saying, here is something stable and secure.
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  It's like that Wonderful parable in Matthew 7 where Christ asks us to
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  build our house on a stable rock.
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  That's what Christianity is, a rock that endures the storms of life.
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  So I think we need to rediscover that and rejoice in that.
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  And you speak truth, my brother.
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  Christianity— Christ has changed my life, and we stand on the shoulders of many who
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  have said the same thing for 2,000 years.
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  And there's a reason, you're right, that it endures.
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  One of the things that you deal with in your book that I thought was interesting,
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  you connect this modern experience that we all have of status anxiety— I say we all
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  have, maybe not all, but a lot of people do— status anxiety,
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  you connect that with this Christian doctrine of justification by faith.
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  Now, I think this is going to bring some freedom, so I want you
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  to talk to us about that.
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  Well, I think this is a very good question.
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  I mean, when I was young, I looked for assurance from everybody.
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  I kind of had status anxiety in that.
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  So it is a really important issue.
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  And one of the remarkable things about the Christian faith is
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  In effect, it's about God accepting you as you are, enabling you to begin a new
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  walk, a new journey.
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  And as you journey, you grow in faith and you become more and more like Christ.
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  And this whole idea of justification by faith is about recognizing
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  God's done everything necessary in Christ to redeem us, to say to us,
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  look how much you matter to me.
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  Christ died for you.
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  That means you really do matter.
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  And in effect saying, look, stop fretting, worrying about anxiety,
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  embrace the fullness of who God is and the difference he makes to you,
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  and be confident in the Christian faith and be confident God loves you
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  and wants to do something special in you and through you.
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  So for me, really, Christianity has this powerful message for anybody who's
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  suffering from status anxiety.
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  We're just saying, look, once God accepts you, you matter.
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  You matter profoundly.
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  And God wants you to discover what's special about you,
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  the difference you can make.
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  And that's a really important point because it gives you a new vision
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  of who you are, what you can do.
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  And it means you stop worrying.
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  You just trust God and you get on with things.
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  Amen. Trust God and get on with things.
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  All right, let's take that a little deeper because in your book, you identify
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  4 fundamental human questions: identity, value, purpose, and agency.
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  Okay, so talk to us about how the Christian story answers those
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  major needs and questions.
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  I think we all want to be reassured that we really matter.
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  I think it's a very deep anxiety.
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  We touched on it, in fact, a moment ago.
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  This idea of mattering, psychologists call this existential mattering.
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  It's really very important.
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  And Christianity doesn't make this stuff up.
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  It's integral to the Christian faith.
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  God loved the world so much that Christ died for us.
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  That's how much we matter.
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  We see ourselves in a completely new way once we see ourselves
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  through a Christian lens.
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  And also, we have this sense, actually, God does love us, but something God wants
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  us to do, he helps us to achieve things, a sense of agency.
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  God's grace enables us to do things that We could not do on our own.
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  And the history of the New Testament makes it very, very clear.
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  God is in the habit of taking people who think they are inadequate and weak
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  and doing great things in them and through them.
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  So that's really, really important.
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  And also having this sense of meaning that actually each of us
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  really is significant in some special way.
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  And very often God is the one who puts his finger on, here is what's so special about
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  you and the difference that you make.
• 20:57
  That's one of the things I think Christianity is just so good at.
• 21:00
  It's saying we're all individuals, but God's able to take us and use us in
• 21:05
  ways that are tailored to who we are.
• 21:08
  He's able to take us and use us in very special ways and taking us sometimes
• 21:12
  by surprise in what he wants us to do.
• 21:15
  So what I'm saying is modern psychology has made it clear these 4 questions
• 21:19
  are really, really important to people.
• 21:22
  Christianity didn't rely on modern psychology to discover this.
• 21:26
  It's built into the deep structure of Christianity that these questions matter,
• 21:31
  and there are deeply significant Christian answers.
• 21:34
  And my anxiety is that we don't always appreciate what those answers are.
• 21:40
  Hence the need to rethink Christianity and make sure we realize how Christianity
• 21:44
  gives very good answers to those questions you've just raised.
• 21:48
  Oh, that's so good.
• 21:49
  Isn't it interesting and beautiful that God provided the answer before we
• 21:53
  even recognized we had the question?
• 21:55
  It was already there in Christ. Thank you, Lord.
• 21:58
  Okay, but let's just go.
• 21:59
  We've got a couple more questions here.
• 22:01
  And Professor, this one's a hard one, okay?
• 22:03
  Because I think one of the things that believers who have walked with Christ for
• 22:08
  years— in fact, I spoke to one yesterday, and she just told me how
• 22:13
  because of some personal suffering and suffering in her family,
• 22:17
  It just shook her faith.
• 22:18
  Okay, well, that's for someone in Christ whose
• 22:21
  life has been built on that rock that you described from the book of Matthew.
• 22:24
  But then there's those who look at Christianity and they think, okay,
• 22:29
  but what about suffering?
• 22:29
  So, in chapter 12, that's what you cover, and you say that suffering is not an
• 22:35
  intellectual riddle that we can hope to solve.
• 22:38
  Okay, so then here's the question: how then does Christianity
• 22:41
  respond to suffering?
• 22:43
  He responds to suffering by perhaps the best answer that could ever be given,
• 22:48
  which is, look, you are not on your own when you suffer.
• 22:52
  You don't want intellectual answers.
• 22:54
  You want to be reassured that God is still here, that God is still with you,
• 22:59
  that in effect, we have a God who knows what it's like to suffer,
• 23:03
  that in effect, this is a God who in effect journeys with
• 23:06
  you through suffering, holding you by the hand so that you can
• 23:10
  cope with this, and you'll come out the end A better and wiser person.
• 23:15
  And, you know, I get a bit tired of sometimes reading all these philosophers
• 23:18
  talking about solutions to the problem of evil.
• 23:21
  God's solution to the problem of evil is to say, I am with you in your sufferings,
• 23:26
  in your pain, and I'm standing with you, standing by you.
• 23:30
  I'm going to lead you through this. Remember Psalm 23?
• 23:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:34
  It's all about God walking with us, even as we walk through the
• 23:37
  valley of the shadow of death.
• 23:40
  We have this reassuring presence as we walk our way through a difficult and
• 23:45
  complex and suffering world and just know that God is with us as we travel.
• 23:51
  It's so good.
• 23:52
  And, and then he will walk us right into the house of the Lord forever.
• 23:56
  Thank you, Lord.
• 23:58
  Oh, Professor, this has been so good.
• 23:59
  I, I just really don't want to wind it up, but we're going to have to wind it up.
• 24:04
  So I'm going to ask you this as our last question.
• 24:08
  So, so I say that this podcast is where thoughtful people come to grow.
• 24:13
  And so I would love to know, what is one thing in your life that has in the
• 24:18
  past or is currently helping you to grow that you could recommend to us?
• 24:23
  I think understanding what the word grow means is really important.
• 24:28
  Sometimes we think, you know, growing your faith means, oh,
• 24:31
  understanding more ideas or learning more about the geography of Israel
• 24:34
  or something like that.
• 24:36
  No.
• 24:36
  Growing in your faith is about realizing increasingly how every aspect of the
• 24:42
  Christian faith touches us in different ways.
• 24:45
  And sometimes, you know, we, we know some areas of our faith very well,
• 24:49
  but we don't know others.
• 24:51
  And in many ways, it's like stepping into a deep,
• 24:54
  rich lake and going deeper and deeper as we discover how wonderful Christianity
• 24:59
  is and the difference it can make to us.
• 25:01
  And so if you like, Growth is about not simply understanding more.
• 25:06
  It's about, in effect, taking it all in, allowing it to change us, and saying,
• 25:11
  thank you, Lord, for leading me deeper into this wonderful faith.
• 25:15
  And it's just so wonderful.
• 25:16
  And I long to go further in your power and in your presence.
• 25:21
  So for me, growing is a really important thing.
• 25:23
  So thank you for that wonderful question.
• 25:26
  Well, you just summarized what C.S. Lewis would have said,
• 25:29
  further up and further in. Well done.
• 25:30
  Thank you so much, Professor.
• 25:38
  Did you realize that no matter what I asked Dr. McGrath,
• 25:42
  he came back to relationship?
• 25:44
  He came back to relationship and meaning, not information and rationality.
• 25:50
  Christianity is at its heart a relationship.
• 25:54
  It's not just true.
• 25:57
  It is real. Did you catch that?
• 25:59
  It's not just true.
• 26:00
  It's real.
• 26:02
  And I hope this conversation helps make the truth of Christianity
• 26:07
  even more real to you.
• 26:09
  All right, his book comes out soon, so you can go to Amazon and preorder it.
• 26:13
  It's called Rethinking Christianity.
• 26:16
  And y'all, it's gonna help you to really review the truth that you believe,
• 26:19
  but it's also gonna help you feel prepared to live it and share it.
• 26:24
  And by the way, if you are a Lewis geek like me, I highly recommend his book on
• 26:28
  C.S. Lewis, and I'll have links to all of his books, including that that one
• 26:33
  and the transcript on the show notes.
• 26:35
  So let me just remind you though, as we head out today,
• 26:39
  a little seed of thought that he dropped when I asked him what helped him grow.
• 26:44
  I loved it.
• 26:45
  He said it's not from understanding more that he grows.
• 26:49
  It's not from learning more ideas or gaining more.
• 26:53
  It comes from taking it all in and going deeper.
• 26:57
  And did you hear him say?
• 26:59
  Thank God for leading me deeper.
• 27:03
  Let's have the same praise on our lips.
• 27:05
  Thank you, Lord, for leading us deeper.
• 27:08
  All right, my friends, keep thinking, keep growing.
• 27:12
  I'll see you next week.