Latest / Pod Save America / How To Survive a Dictatorship (feat. Wagner Moura)

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How To Survive a Dictatorship (feat. Wagner Moura) · Pod Save America

• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Hi, welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Alex Wagner, sometimes
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: host of Pod Save America, but also host of Runaway Country.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: This week, we have a really special interview. Um, I'm
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: talking to Wagner Mora, who you may recognize from his
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: turn playing Pablo Escobar in Narcos, which was amazing. But
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: he is nominated for Best Actor at the Academy Awards.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: The picture he is in, The Secret Agent, is also
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: nominated for Best Picture. And it is an incredible film,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: which you should all see if you haven't already. And
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: what brings us together today is the talk of dictatorship,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: because The Secret Agent focuses a lot on a period
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: of Brazil's history when dictatorship was the order of the day.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: And the film is set in the 1970s. And what
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: you will notice in that film is the eerie echoes
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: with the society we are living in today. It's not
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: quite as overt, but certainly the freedoms that are being
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: infringed upon, the targeting... of perceived enemies. All of it
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: has a real echo with some of the stuff we're
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: dealing with today here in America. And Wagner Mora is
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: an incredible actor, but also a real deep thinker about politics,
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: both here and in his home country, and sort of
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: what this moment means for artists and people who are
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: keen to resist tyranny. So it's a really good conversation.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: I hope you check it out. This is Wagner Mora
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: and me, Alex Wagner, talking in politics. Take a listen.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: I did not believe this could happen, and I am
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: so thrilled to have Wagner Mora on the Pod Save
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: America Sunday show. This is a real delight. I am
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: a big fan of your work, which is I know
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: what everybody says to you when these things start, but
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: I really mean it. And you obviously have the best
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: name in Hollywood.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. It's
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: a pleasure. I was looking forward to doing this. Really?
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: You've been doing so much. I can't believe you really
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: wanted to do an hour-long interview with me, but I'll
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: take it.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: I know totally because, you know, we it's, I think
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: it's going to be a different one. This one. Yeah.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: It's definitely going to be a different one.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: And I'm looking forward to doing something.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Oh, I was gutted by the movie. I was gutted
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: by it. I did not all, there's so many scenes.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to, I'm really going to try and
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: not give spoilers, but there's so many levels. It's gutting
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: on a personal level where it's like the relationship between
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: father and son. I have two boys. There's six and eight.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: You have three boys, right?
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I miss that age.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: Oh, no, you don't.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: No, no. Trust me. Because each age is a different challenge,
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: but it's also a different kind of– I see photos
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: of them when they were six and eight. It was like, oh,
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: my God.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: I hate my kids so much. I hate them. I mean,
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: I really was like, I think boarding school is a
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: great idea. Today, I was like, it's the day. They
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: finally pushed me over the edge. They actually stormed out
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: of the house like 15 minutes ago in my winter
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: clothing with a pack of Girl Scout cookies and some Gatorade.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: And they were like, we're leaving. We're done here. And
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: I was like, goodbye.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: Goodbye. And they will come back.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: Calorically, I don't think that's going to be enough, but
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: it might be. Bonne chance.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: That's so great. Yeah.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: So it's so visceral on so many levels, but obviously
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: to watch that movie, which is about a very specific
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: and dark period in Brazil's history, the military dictatorship that
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: ran from, I think, 64 to 85. Yeah. Not the
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: end of strong men leading Brazil by any stretch of
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: the imagination, but it's a really perilous time for anybody
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: who dares to think freely or has inclinations and impulses
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: towards democratic systems. And it's chilling. I mean, I kind
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: of wonder, you started filming this. What year did you
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: start filming this?
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: We shot this in 24. I'm so bad with these dates.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: But yeah, like June, yeah, July 24, I think.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, okay, so let's talk about this a little bit.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: You've characterized that in previous interviews. You've characterized that period
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: as a civil military dictatorship. Oh, my God. I'm so sorry.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Hold on. That's them calling me from up there.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because they ran away and now they're calling you.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: They're back. I'm so sorry.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: I have three kids. I totally get it.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: I'm back. I'm so sorry.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: Are they all right, Alex? Are they okay? How are they?
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Who cares? Just like, I don't even, I just like,
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: they've been slipping notes under my door. I just, okay,
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: we're fine.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: Do they work together? Like, are they like a good team?
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: Right now, when they're not clawing each other's eyes out,
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: they're united in their rage.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. If there's one person that understands that,
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: that's me. Trust me.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: It's the Wagner in all of us. Okay.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: The Wagner thing, yeah.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you've characterized this period in Brazil's history as
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: a civil-military dictatorship because there was a political organization, but
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: also elites and civilian institutions were complicit in all of this.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: And I kind of wonder, as you think about that
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: period and you look at the period we are living
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: through right now here in the United States where you live,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: and you see the capitulation of law firms and universities
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: and to some degree private business, or at least the
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: wealthiest among us, how do you sort of reconcile the
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: movie that you made and the reality in which you live?
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: It's interesting because this, I love this about films because
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: films are always like an encounter between what an artist
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: wants to say with a very particular, because we shot
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: the film in 2024, we could have This could have
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: been shot like in 23. Sometimes films, they take time
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: to be released. So when we release a film, it's
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: the encounter of that will, that thing that an artist
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: wanted to say two years, three years, four years ago,
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: with the present. And I always think that this is
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: an interesting thing. For example, I directed a film called Marighella.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: It was about a freedom fighter in Brazil, a real character.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: And I had to release the film under Bolsonaro's government,
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: which was crazy. To release a film about a guy
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: who was fighting against a dictatorship under the government of
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: a man who praised the dictatorship and censored my film.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: So it's interesting to see that now, for example, I
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: love the fact that the film is The Secret Agent
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: is being released in Brazil now under Lula, which is
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: a very democratic.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, different guy.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: A very different guy. I mean, it's hard to say
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: these things with politicians, but I'm a fan. I think
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: Lula is a fantastic character of Brazilian history. But also, exactly,
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: and now to see the film being released in Europe,
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: in different countries of Europe, like in Spain, it's interesting,
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: the discussions about how Franco's name is coming back to
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: young people, you know, as if like, maybe there was
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: this strong president back then that was doing, so, and
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: here in the US, of course, with the, it's interesting
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: because when you do the Q & As, for example,
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: when you talk to journalists, you end up learning a
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: lot about the film that you did or like having
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: insights about I've been learning about the secret agent just
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: by listening to American audiences, for example, like kind of
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: questions that they do. So, yeah, of course. And that's
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: how it was supposed to be, right? Like this parallels,
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: this connections with the present, with what's going on right now.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: Did you, I mean, obviously you were thinking about Brazil
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: when you made the film. But were you thinking about
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: the United States? I mean, was that something you conceived of?
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: You filmed it in 2024 before Trump had won. So
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: obviously things could have been really quite different once the
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: film was released, but we are where we are. I mean,
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: did you think about our flirtation with and now outright
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: embrace of autocracy?
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the idea of strong governments, of strong men,
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: I think there is an idea of masculinity going on
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: in the world right now that, you know, and that
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: was how it was back then with Pinochet in Chile,
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: with Hitler, with, you know, the idea of the macho
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: man that's going to solve the problem. I was very
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: impressed when I saw the thing that really, of course,
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: was when Alex Pratt but it was killed by eyes
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: in Minneapolis. Of course, that image was so horrible and
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: so strong. But while I was watching it, what I could,
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: my brain was like, I could see two different kinds
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: of masculinity there. Very clear to me. Like there was
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: a man, that put his body in front of a
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: woman or a person that needed his help trying to
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: protect her. And then there was these other men that
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: were pure rage and brutality and... And you could see,
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, maybe it's just a manature, but I could
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: go and look at these men and go like, and
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: kind of see all the fragility that they carried with them.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: You know, all the issues that these men were carrying
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: with them in order to do what they did to
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: that other human, to the other human beings. So, yeah,
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: so maybe I'm traveling, like, I think that we are
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: living in a moment where Yeah. There is a, it's
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: a discussion about, there is a big thing about masculinity. Yeah.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: And that's in the movie too. I mean, there are
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: these moments where it's like, your name's Bobby. What kind
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: of name is Bobby? Of course they say it so
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: lyrically and malefluously in Portuguese, but you know, and it's like,
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: this is the seventies and it's like, well, what the fuck?
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Bobby's a pretty masculine name as far as I know. But,
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: but this constant battle we seem to have through the ages,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: at least in modern society around what makes a man
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: and so much of politics is is driven by that.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: And then I'm sure as an actor, it's something you
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: as a man must confront in the roles that you
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: play too, right? This like war, these warring ideas about
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: what makes a man and how, I mean, I don't
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: like how much, how much time do we have to
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: spend talking about fucking men in the, in the world? Right.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: But it is so determinative and in terms of like
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: society and social outcomes.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And we both have sons. Right, Alex?
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of them. Too many, one would argue.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: It's five, just between us.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: Five between the two of us.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: So it's what it is also to, yeah, what kind
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: of values we are passing along to our sons.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Can I interrupt you for a second? Because you mentioned
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: Alex Preddy. And I know you've talked about this before,
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: but you've talked about Renee Nicole Goode and Alex Preddy.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: as being kind of similar to the character you play
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: in terms of outcome and I guess tragedy. Can you
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about that? And I don't
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: want to ruin any endings, but I just wonder how
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: you see a kinship between the person that you play
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: in this movie that's set in 1977 and what happened
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: on the streets of Minneapolis in the year 2026. Yeah,
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: I think we are.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: We're discussing, it's about values. But I was, now I
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: got a little lost because I wanted to answer your
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: previous question about.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: About masculinity.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, about, yeah, because we'll go, I'll go back to. Yeah,
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: of course. But in the film, in The Secret Agent,
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: there is something also about, there is a father and
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: son thing in the film.
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: Because I, my character has a son. But the chief
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: of police of the film also has two sons. And
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: the killers that are trying to find my character, it's
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: like a father and son thing too. So now going,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: I think I'm going to make a bridge between the
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: two things. And it's about values, I think. And what
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: kind of values you pass along to the new generations.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: Because Secret Agent is a film about generational trauma. And
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: how these things can be passed along within an entire country.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: Brazil suffered of generational trauma. I think, throughout our entire history.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: In 79, you mentioned that the dictatorship ended in 85.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: In 79, we had a law called the Amnesty Law
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: that basically forgave torturers and killers. And it's like the
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: dictatorship forgiving themselves. It forgave all torturers and killers and
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: people that did despicable things.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: Here we call it a blanket pardon, and everybody should
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: be expecting more of those when Trump is on his
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: way out of office.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: Like that. And so people... That made people sort of, like,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: Bolsonaro himself would never have been possible, I think, as
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: a president if it wasn't because of that law, you know,
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: that affected the memory of an entire country. There was, like,
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: there are young people in Brazil, like, that didn't even
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: know that there was a dictatorship in the country. All
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: people would go, like, oh, maybe it wasn't that bad. Again,
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: going back to the first conversation, things that we were
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: talking about, the time where a film is released, it's
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: also interesting that this film is being released in Brazil
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: in a moment where finally Brazil is sort of getting
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: even with its memory when we sent Bolsonaro to jail,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: we sent military people that attempted against democracy in Brazil
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: to jail. And I think that just to try to
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: put it all together, I think it has to do,
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: and I said when I won the Golden Globes, that
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: if trauma can be passed along generations, values can too.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: That's so important, right?
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah. How are we? Yeah. How can we? Exactly. And
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: I think it comes to how are we educating our
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: kids and how the society, how are the crisis of
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: information that we are going through in society, the alignment
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: of the tech oligarchs with the power. That's the thing
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: that scares me a lot in the US. Because I
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: only kind of started to realize that recently. I'm not
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: an internet guy. I'm not on social medias. But I
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: only understood the alignment of Facebook or whatever, these guys,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: with the far right, with the right, and with the republics,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: and with the power in the way that they are now.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: And they all have a project themselves. And I didn't
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: know that because back then, I guess like 10 years ago,
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: technology and social medias, these things were kind of like
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: a world to be explored even for progressive ideas, right?
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: How can we connect? How can we share ideas? How
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: can the world be connected? And I think that this
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: idea just disappeared in my mind. It's very clear to
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: me right now that this is the disalignment is what
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: it is.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're going to get increasingly powerful as artificial
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: intelligence becomes more of our everyday reality, right? The world
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: is going to be in the hands of tech billionaires
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: who've proven in this hour that they have no moral code,
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: which is a terrifying thing.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: It's a terrifying thing.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: I do want to get, I mean, I want to
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: go to the ideas of Nicole Good and Alex Preddy
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: because you made this film in 2024 and then these
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: two people were murdered on video in Minneapolis in 2026.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: And I know you've said you feel there's a through
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: line between what happens and what happened to people in
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Brazil and what happens to your character in The Secret
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Agent and what is happening to Americans like Preddy and
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Good in this day and age. Can you talk a
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: little bit more about that?
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Listen, authoritarianism is, uh, I'm not an expert of, uh,
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: in that field, but I lived in a country that had, uh, not,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: not only one dictatorship, but some we had, we, we,
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: our history is full of coup d'etats and, and authoritarianism
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: and violence and, and other, other beautiful things too. But
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: this is a, uh, a reality in Brazil. Bolsonaro is, uh,
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: is a manifestation of these forces that are part of
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: what our country really is. And what I understood, or
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: what I understand about this, especially when we were under
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: the government of a fascist president, is that, and also too,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: going back to the books and reading about authoritarian regimes,
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: is that there must be resistance. We had civilian resistance,
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: you know, and I'm not talking about guerrilla fighters or like,
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: or armed resistance or anything like that, but civil disobedience and, and,
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: and like basically what people in Minneapolis were doing, you know,
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: and look what they, what.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: What they got. I mean, we were recording this on
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: the day that Tom Homan, who was brought in to
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: take the reins from The psychopath Greg Bovino and Kristi
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: Noem is announcing they're going to withdraw ICE agents. Operation
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: Metro Surge is going to be wound down, which is
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: a testament to the bravery and the tenacity and the
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: organization of these moms and dads and neighbors in Minneapolis.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: Exactly. And that's exactly, that's the perfect example. You know,
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: I think that this is what has to be done.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Just sometimes just record something or blew a whistle or
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: like it's something that, that shows to a wannabe authoritarian
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: or a one or an authoritarian government that he they
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: will face some sort of resistance otherwise they just roll
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: over and it's real fast that's the only thing that
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: i can say uh uh Yeah, for the experience of
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: living in a country where that kind of thing happened many,
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: many times. And we almost had that. We kind of
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: had it with Bolsonaro. But if he had a second term,
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: the way Trump has had, because we all know that
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: the second terms, that's when they go. Because it's basically
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: the population saying, we saw what you did. We liked it.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Go for it. So this is a very important moment,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: I think, for that kind of resistance.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: The other thing that strikes me in terms of parallels
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: is the main character that you play in the movie,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: part of the struggle is getting at the truth of
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: what happened to him and what his life was like
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: and who he actually was, his character.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: One of the most revolting parts of both the Renee
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Nicole Good death and Alex Preddy was the swiftness with
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: which the federal government decided to destroy their humanity and
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: their memory and their legacy. And just how unhidden that was.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: It was all happening in plain sight. It was like,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: we're going to deny the facts of what happened on
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: the ground, but we're also going to call these people
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: domestic terrorists.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: That I think for a lot of Americans seeing that
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: happen was a real wake up call. And I wonder
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: if you can talk a little bit about how, how
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: to fight against that, right? Like there's a desire to
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: forget the bad stuff. There's also desire to look away,
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: but part of the thing is to keep looking and
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: keep asking questions.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. There are things that cannot be forgotten, things that
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: cannot be, you know, forgiven. And, and, uh, I saw
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: the other day Donald Trump saying like, we have to
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: go over, we have to move on. And I go like,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: that is dangerous. You know, there are things that you
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: cannot absolutely forget. When I said that I've been learning
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: a lot about the film that I did, talking to people,
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: it's like recently in one of those Q & As,
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: I was answering a question about what happened to my
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: character and how it, how it ended up for him.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: And I realized one thing that I hadn't thought about
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: the film, that this is also a film about infamy.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: And exactly what you said, like when you kill someone twice,
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: you know, because you kill the person and then you
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: kill the reputation. Exactly.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: And that's so cruel, and that's typical of this kind
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: of regime. I've been saying this, Alex, and I don't
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: want to repeat myself, but the thing that scares me,
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: it really scares me, and when we're talking about the
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: alignment of the tech oligarchs with the power, and the
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: decadence of journalism, and the Washington Post just firing people,
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: this is the thing that concerns me. The idea that
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: the truth... is over, or the post-truth, or whatever scholars
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: call it.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that we have shared realities.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: It's shared realities. We are not living in the same
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: mental space. It's not that everybody that voted for Trump
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: or voted for Bolsonaro, they are not bad people. Some
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: of them are. But lots of these people are just
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: people that are living in another world.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they think the world is operating in a different fashion.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: It's a different, and this was something that was always,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: it's a thing for the far right. They have always
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: done that. But with the technology, now with the fact
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: that you can have a video, this right now could
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: be me speaking. It's me, it's my face, it's my voice,
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: and it's not me.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: And for me, I'm almost 50. This is crazy. I know.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: You know, it's the idea that, like you said, they
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: can say, it's just that the resistance, just that kind
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: of thing doesn't allow them to go that far with
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: the lies against Rene, Goode, Alex Petter, because there are
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: people here to say, like, this is not true. But
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: it's becoming more and more common that these kind of
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: things are going to be taken as the truth.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: Well, that people feel they're being manipulated by technology and
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: that the real truth is not the truth that challenges
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: their assumptions about the world. I mean, that's the thing
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: is people just want information, data, stories, narrators who confirm
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: that the way they think and see things is the
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: right way. And anything that disrupts that is rejected as
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: false or part of some kind of conspiracy theory. And
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: that is not good. I mean, has anyone watched your
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: movie and not? Have you gotten any reactions that have
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: not seen the parallel reality between what's happening in Brazil
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: in 1977 and what's unfolding, not just in America, but
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: in other places with the rise of strongmen?
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: I think that this has been very clear. Okay, good.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: The subject of all the discussions and all the Q
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: & As and all the conversations that we've been having.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: And I'm glad that this is, it's been like, this
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: is what, I think that's why we do films. That's
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: why we do what we do, I think.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Have you been, I mean, has it, you live in
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: Los Angeles. And we're at a moment when this president
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: is trying to kick out people who are legally here.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: people that are inconvenient for him, people especially who are
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: from Central and South America. I mean, have you felt
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: any particular peril going out there and being openly political
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: about this and being outwardly critical of certain administrations?
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been always very vocal, right? Like in Brazil, especially. Yeah.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: And Bolsonaro, you were on his radar.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. It wasn't easy. It was because... In order
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: to be vocal, you have to be also willing to
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: face the backlash. That's why I'm against when people go,
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: you have to go out, you have to speak up.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: There are some people that are not ready to do that,
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: and they shouldn't, because the backlash is really strong. Yeah,
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: but I think that this is, what did you ask?
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: Like, have you worried at all?
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: No.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: Have you worried at all about repercussions?
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: No, because it would be worse for me to go.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: Not say something. Yeah, but this is how I am. Again,
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: this is me. This shouldn't be the thing for everybody.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: For me, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: if I knew something, if I had something that I
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: knew I would say and people would listen to me.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: And I wouldn't do it because I was afraid of
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: something or because someone is paying me or because I
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: have financial interests. Again, talking about values. how can I
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: tell my kids to be honest and to be, you know,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: to be themselves and to stick with the values that
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: they have if I don't do that? Right. So, no,
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: I'm not, of course, it's, I've been, again, the world
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: is totally polarized, right? So when I say something, especially
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: in Brazil, when I say something like half of the country,
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: I guess, go like, that's nice, that's cool. And the
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: other half is like, Yeah, I mean....
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: Do you get shit? Do people give you a hard
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: time in Brazil?
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: Oh, my God.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: What do they do? Do they come up to you?
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: What do they say?
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: I'm glad that I don't have social medias because it's hardcore. Yeah,
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: when I did my film Marighella... And that was under
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: Bolsonaro's government. We've received many death threats. And when we
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: were releasing the film, we had to have metal detectors
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: at the door. Yeah, I've been like, when I was
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: on the street, because the Gualdin was in, I had
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: to be really pay attention where I was and who
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: I was talking to.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: So you decided to follow that up with this film.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Like if I were your wife, I'd be like, how
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: about an animation? How about a Pixar film, honey?
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: I would love that.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Want to be the voice of a crab? How about that?
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: I was, I was actually visiting Pixar studios yesterday.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, you were.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: That's, that's what I should be doing. But yeah, but, but, but, but,
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: but I think it's, it's, yeah, this is, this is
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: how I function, I think, as a, as a, as
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: a person.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, hats off to you. And I wish
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: there were more people. I honestly think, you know, we
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: are living in times, and I say this as an
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: American who has lived largely a life of privilege in
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: a very free society as a journalist, but it is
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: really feels like it's time to pick a side. You know,
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: when they're threatening to, you know, arrest and hang for treason, U.S. senators,
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: when they're going after the fourth estate and when they're
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: terrorizing communities of color in American cities just by virtue
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: of disagreement. It's like... this is the hour. This is
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: the hour to say something. And I think so.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: You know, Hollywood is one thing. But if you have
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: a pulpit, if you have a voice, why not use it?
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, I do want to ask, though, because I
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: say this and you're in Hollywood. It's another sunny day.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: You were at Pixar Studios. I was in Hungary early
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: last year trying to get a sense of what it
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: was like to live in an autocracy. And one of
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: the things, as an American, I did not grasp the
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: lived experience of being in Brazil in the late 70s, right?
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: I think most Americans, because we're largely ignorant about world history,
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Think of Brazil as like Carnaval and like caipirinhas and whatever.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: The movie takes place during Carnaval, which I thought was
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: really interesting. But they think of Brazil as an event.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: Which is happening right now.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, the Lenten season, right?
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: My God, it's so.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: So, but just talk to me a little bit about how,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: I do feel like autocracies now are, they're not like
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: the gulags of yesteryear. They're like, Hungary is a lovely
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: place to visit. You can go have a cocktail and
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: a great meal, but there's not real freedom of speech, right?
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: And Brazil, it's like, it's still this beautiful place. It's bucolic.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of sex happening. A lot of sex
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: in the movie. Yeah. Not gratuitous. Very sexy, yeah. Very,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: very sexy. Very authentically.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Of the fabric of Brazil.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: Colorful. Yeah.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: Exactly. That's not true. It's just hard for people to
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: understand that just because your day-to-day life can be one
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: of sunshine and beaches, it doesn't guarantee that you have
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: real freedom. And I wonder how you as a Brazilian
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: think about that period and just the way, you know,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: people like enjoying their lives. They don't want to have
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: to worry about darkness at the edge of the frame.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: You know, when I did Narcos and I was living
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: in Colombia, Bogota back in the 80s was the most
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: dangerous city in the world because of the bombs Pablo
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Escobar was putting on the streets and everything. And I
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: was asking my friends in Colombia, hey, how was it
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: to live here back in the 80s? And they were like, dude,
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: we were going out. We were going to bars and
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: living our lives. And then, boom, a bomb would explode.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: And that's one thing that I love in films is
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: to see I love to see characters that want to live,
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: that like to be alive, despite of the situations. Because
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: that's how human beings are. So we're not monolithic. Of course,
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: it's hardcore to be under a dictatorship. But one of
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: my favorite scenes in The Secret Agents is when he
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: realizes that there are hitmen looking for him. And he
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: goes downstairs and the carnival is going on. And he
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: goes like, okay. So he gives himself to the carnival
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: and goes. And that's, for me, that's very humane. But
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: you were right about this thing, the dictatorships, not dictatorships,
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: but authoritarian regime nowadays. It's interesting, man. I mean, when
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: I think about the dictators, the dictators from South America
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: back in the 70s and 60s and 70s, there are
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: all those military guys with, you know, like those hats
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: and things.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Uniforms.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, uniforms. And it's interesting that they all now, they
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: are perceived as, exactly like you said, I haven't thought
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: about that, as like, yeah, this is just, you know, like,
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: this is it. This is normal. It's more like a
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: cynical world. That's just one thing about Donald Trump that
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: I think is interesting.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: What?
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Tell me.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: For example, when he invaded Venezuela right now, he didn't
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: say they had mass destruction weapons or anything like that.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: No WMDs.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Oil, you know? Straight up, we're robbing this fucking country.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: We want their oil. That's what we want. And I
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: was like, wow. Because, yeah, I feel that nowadays these
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: authoritarian guys, they pass as they like to behave as
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: democratic guys.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: It's like they don't want people to know it's like
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: a full-on dictatorship. They're like, you can still go to
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: Zumba class. You can still get a smoothie. There's just
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: no press anymore. And also, if you're too brown, we're
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: going to deport you regardless of whether you're an American.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: To another country that's not even yours.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, but that's the thing of the United States.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: It's a very careful line, right? You're nominated for Best Actor.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: We have a Best Picture nomination. And those are hallmarks
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: of a free and fair society that would champion that
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: level of artistry that addresses the subject of dictatorship so directly.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: But it's also like, but shit, the rest of the
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: country is like, go to Minneapolis. I was there three
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: weeks ago. That sure as fuck did not feel like
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: a democracy, right?
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: And you say, like, I'm nominated for an Academy Award.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: But if I see ICE people on the street, I've
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: been asking myself, what would I do?
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: What would you do?
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Because my instinct, and I know that
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: I have this instinct in me which my wife gets
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: very nervous about, which is like, fuck you. Right. And
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: I have to be careful with that. That's insane.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Can I just say this is insane?
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because if they fuck you.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: You are going to the Oscar.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: And I speak with an accent.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: It's like, and they go, I don't know what would
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: I do. I don't know. Should I just pretend that
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: they're not there and try to walk? I don't know
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: if I could be able to do that, you know,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: or my reaction would be like confrontation. And that could
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: be very, and that could put my life in danger. Yeah.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: Do you, do your kids, your kids are old enough
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: to know about what's happening. Do you talk to them
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: about it?
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: They went to a manifestation against ICE.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: A protest.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. A protest here.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: And what did, do they talk to you about what,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: you should do or what you would do as a family.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's so insane that someone who's up for
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: best actor is like, if ice comes, fuck, I don't
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: know what I do.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know. No, we have, we
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: have conversations here about politics and, and I just want
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: them to be safe. You know, like when they, the
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: younger ones that might, I have my, my, my kids
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: are 19, 15 and 13 and the 15 and the
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: 13 are, They were like, Dad, there's a manifestation against ICE.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: Some of our friends, they're going, can we go? I
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: was like, yeah, you should go. But I was like... Worried. Worried, yeah.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: When we talk about sort of like masculinity and... the
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: ways in which fathers and sons can impart lessons to
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: each other and just how much of our political moment
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: is dictated by toxic masculinity. I must ask you, since
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: you just sort of made a glancing mention of the
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: Epstein files, like, what do you think of all that?
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: I know that the corruption of the elites was something
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: that happened in Brazil in this period, something that a
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: lot of autocratic and dictatorial societies are familiar with because
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: you really can't get far unless you have buy-in from
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: the richest and the most powerful. like when you see
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: this Epstein stuff come out, like, I mean, what do
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: you think of it? What is it? What is like,
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: what was your thought when you saw all the people
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: that were mentioned?
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: It's crazy. Cause I, I sometimes I, I catch myself
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: like in a sort of like Q and on sort.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Of like, well, I mean, I think all of us
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: were like, Oh yeah.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: I was like, like going on.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: Maybe, maybe kind of hit on something there.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: Conspiracy theory is a bug because for, For sure, we're
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: talking about a financial elite, right? That when I heard
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: that Noam Chomsky was involved in this thing, I was like, yeah, man,
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: you know, this is it. You know, for sure, most
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: of the people involved in these scandals are, you know,
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: Conservative politicians. But actually, it's not about right or left.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: No, it's about power and wealth.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: It's about power and wealth. And for me, that is
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: coming from a country where social inequality is the biggest issue.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: You know, it's the biggest issue of Brazil. And every time,
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: with the exception of Lula, that's why I respect him
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: so much. But every time a president in Brazil or
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: someone tried to do something about it, this person got ousted.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: You know, got impeached or there was a coup d'etat
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: or something. Every time. Because people make lots of money.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: The interest rates in Brazil is like, I don't know,
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: I don't even know. It's like the biggest in the world.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: So the banks makes lots of money in financial. It's
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: a system that they don't want to be changed.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: Disrupt.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: It's just, yeah, it's hard not to go like, oh
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: my God, this world is being ruled by lizards.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: Is it weird to be in a place like Hollywood
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: when this stuff comes out? Because He made inroads. He
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: was always, Epstein was always trying to get to Hollywood.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: And there is a certain, like, Hollywood can look away
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: from things it doesn't want to see. We know that
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: from the Me Too movement.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: And I just wonder, like, I wonder what it's like
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: to be a bit of a radical and to be
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: politically engaged and being someone who's ready to resist. And
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: I'm not asking you to, like, smear Hollywood, but so
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: much of Hollywood is transactional and it's just about, like...
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: You know, who knows who and power and access.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: Don't expose yourself. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, but, you know, of course,
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: in a way smaller scale, I lived this in Brazil
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: as well. Yeah, yeah. A star system in Brazil as well.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: And it did operate sort of in the same way,
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: but in a way smaller scale. Scale. And it's the
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: same that we spoke in the beginning. I understand. I
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: really understand people that don't want to go out there
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: and say things. Although I agree with you. If there's
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: a moment to go out there and say shit, I
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: think it's now.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: It's now.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: But I understand who doesn't want to do that because
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: people are not equipped. Emotionally or intellectually or didn't– people
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: shouldn't talk about things that they don't understand. I get that.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: I get that, right? I get that. But for me, yeah,
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: I'll keep being myself. Again, the thing that I tell
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: to my kids all the time is like be yourself.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: You know, what you are is good enough. Don't try
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: to be something else. Don't try to impress anyone. Just,
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: you are wonderful just the way you are. Just be
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: yourself and you'll be fine. Stick with the values that
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: you have.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: And you, meanwhile, are going to be someone else every
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: couple months. I'm kidding. I know what you're saying.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: But yeah, but that's another thing about it.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: And I will be Pablo Escobar.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: No, but that's the point for me. It's interesting. I've, I've,
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: I've come to realize more and more that when I
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: play a character, it's way more a version of myself
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: than anything else. You know, like it's not like the
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: idea that actors like put masks in front of them.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: So you're not method.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: I think it, I think we expose ourselves a lot
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: when we play, even when we play characters like Pablo Escobar.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: Can I ask you, I ask you this cause you're
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: from South America and, um, Trump's ramp up to the
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Super Bowl and Bad Bunny performing and was, like, so.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: The.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: Racism usually, like, lives right on the surface, but in
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: that moment and the aftermath, it was, like, the degradation
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: of Latin culture and the, like, the accusations that, like,
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: you can't be part of America. You know, Bad Bunny saying,
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: together we are America and ending the Super Bowl, listing off,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: including your home country, all these countries and suggesting, like,
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: the prospect, the promise of this place is its inclusivity
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: and that you can be Brazilian, but you're also American.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: How did like, how did that moment strike you when
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: you were, I mean, I don't know if you watch football,
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: but like, I assume the, like the, the sort of like,
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: do you speak English? What language do you speak? Like
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: the whole debate about having this performer and what he
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: said ultimately in his joyous celebration of a halftime show.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: I didn't see the whole thing. I saw a video
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: afterwards and I thought, I thought it was beautiful. I thought,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: I thought it was, He was brave. Because for me,
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: it's always, I could be here talking to you and
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: saying things and I can say here right now, I
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: think Donald Trump is racist. And I keep telling this
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: and doing this all the time. This wouldn't be as
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: important or stronger than, for example, the film that we did,
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: The Secret Agent. I think that what fascists are afraid
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: of is not, they're not afraid of, Because any fascist government,
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: they attack journalists, they attack artists, they attack universities. But
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: with artists, I don't think that they are afraid of
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: what we say publicly. They are afraid of what we do.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: This is what concerns them. And so Bad Bunny in
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: the Grammys, he went up there and he said, eyes out,
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: and it was like fucking cool. But what he did
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: with that performance is way more powerful. Totally. Totally. It's
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: his talent and that's what he was born to do.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: And the way he did it, I was very moved.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: Me too.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: And, of course, Trump's reaction is a clear display of racism.
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: But also fear, I think, too. And fear.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm talking about. And fear. That's right. And fear.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: Because, to your point... I mean, Trump wants to believe
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: as much of a cultural idiot as he is. I
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: think you're totally right about artists being a very powerful
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: bulwark to authoritarianism because they have the hearts and the
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: mind of the people. They have this magic to them
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: that can't easily be stamped out and can't be dismissed
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: as partisan chicanery. It's like it's something that Trump will
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: never have, that magic that Bad Bunny had. And the
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: goodness and the joy of that performance is the opposite
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: of what he's offering to the American people.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: And him being such a narcissist, you know, for him.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: That's not a... But you said very right. It's like
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: fear is a... I'm convinced that the whole... All the
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: bad things in the world, they all come out of
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: fear and and lack of self-esteem. Going back to the
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: guys killing Alex Petri in Minneapolis, I saw those men,
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: they were in fear. That's what I could see, you know,
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: like very scared men. They were always scared. there's something
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: in their life. And exactly, and the way they recruit
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: the AIS people, from what I heard, it's very particular. Like,
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: it's like they're gathering people with very, not only ideologically,
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: but like there is something about these men that connect
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: them in their fear, in their lack of self-esteem, in
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: the way that they've been, you know, like in their
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: minds that they've been relegated their entire lives and I
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: could see this when Bolsonaro got elected when in his
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: all his secretaries and ministers there were like a bunch
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: of people that no one really never cared about it
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: was like people there were like a lot of like
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: people with so much resentment in their hearts and and
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: now now it's my moment now.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: It's totally well I would argue the same is true
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: of the Trump administration it's like the cabinet of broken toys.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: It's people who have faced rejection, who feel less than,
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: and who've been given some power and are going to
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: use that to, you know, put the boot on other
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: people's necks. I think it's also why ICE wears masks.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: It's for their own, it's like they're also, they know
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: that part of their impunity is because they're hidden. But
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: if they actually had to face the music of what
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: they're doing, the depravity of it, like they're terrified of
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: what they're doing.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: That says a lot. Exactly.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: The masks are a huge part of this.
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: Demas says a lot, you know, why you're not showing
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: your face.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: I got to ask you about this because I was
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: really struck by this quote. When you, after Narcos, a
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: series I absolutely loved so much. Again, it's like, I
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: know every journalist does this in these interviews with you,
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: so I'm trying my best not to be fawning. But anyway,
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: you said you turned down a lot of interviews after
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: Narcos because you didn't want to be like the Latin
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: bad guy. And in an interview you said, I want
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: to play a character who speaks the way I speak
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: because I represent a big portion of this country. People
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: who came here, speak with accents and are important for
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: what we know as the United States, which is chef's kiss,
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: no notes. But like, was that a political, like how,
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: how fraught, how much of a political, that feels like
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: a really political statement in this.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's, it's for sure a political statement. You know, I,
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: I want, I don't want to play, I don't want
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: to do anything that would be, you know, that would,
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: represent my people in a way that would be a
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: stereotype or with the image. Representation matters a lot. You know,
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: I think that it's great to see, you know, to
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: have kids back in Brazil looking at the kind of
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: characters that I want to play or that, you know,
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: one thing that I was very like, I love to
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: see Diego Luna in Star Wars. I know. He's so good.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: That's so important. Like a Mexican little boy there in
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: Mexico or like the Mexican communities or the people that
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: speak Spanish here in this country go like, oh my God,
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: there's this dude speaking with that accent and it's in
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: the Star Wars world. I belong to that too. I
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: think this is so important, you know, for kids, for
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: the new generations. And yeah, it's for sure a political statement.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: Pedro Pascal needs to take that Mandalorian mask off. Just kidding.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: He's great. He's great. Let me ask you, because I
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: feel like on your CV it says that you at
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: one point worked as a journalist. Is that right?
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: I graduated as a journalist. That's also why I care
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: so much about journalism. And I'm so concerned about the
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: state of journalism.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: Is that why you took the less glamorous path of
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: a Hollywood superstar? It was just like, it was too
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: much pressure being a journalist.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: No, I, I, I think that I wouldn't, that that
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: wasn't my thing. I think, I don't think I would
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: be a very good journalist. Why? It, it, I think it,
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: it requires a lot of, um, I have lots of
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: interest in other people and I want to know about
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: it and, But there is a thing that a journalist
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: has to be very, you know, invasive sometimes.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: Like me saying why? No, not you.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: No, but, you know, like, you have to be relaxed.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, you do.
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: You know, you have to, like, keep receiving a no
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: and going back there and knocking at their door and trying.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: And I don't think I had that kind of skills.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: And also, too, when I worked as a journalist, I
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: had a very romantic idea that I wanted to change.
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: I wanted to be like, oh, the president's man kind
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: of thing. And do something that... And the kind of
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: thing that I was doing when I started as a
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: journalist was very like.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: What were you doing? Do you remember?
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: I remember that I covered police. I had to go
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: to the police station and know how many people died.
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: That's what Woodward and Bernstein were doing. They were like
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: weekend beat reporters.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: It was very like... And also I did some cultural
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: things too. I don't know, man. I think that's acting....
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: Well, you were nominated for an Academy Award. Obviously, you
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: chose the right path.
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: My friends from the city where I'm from, from Salvador,
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: most of them are my... I met my wife in college,
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: a student journalist. Most of my friends are journalists. And
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: I'm very concerned of the state of journalism as a
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: business and as an idea. The Washington Post thing is very...
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: It was a very sad thing to see. I was like,
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: Jeff Bezos has $ 40 million to put in that documentary,
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: and he had to fire all these people from the
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: Washington Post. The Washington Post is a very, very important
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: institution for American democracy. Again, talking about all the presidents, man.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: So those kind of things really... This concerns me a lot.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: You talk about Watergate, and I'm reminded of the 1970s
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: in America, which was like an incredible period of cinema.
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: I think in large part because it was a response
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: to Vietnam and Watergate and the corruption of institutions. Do
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: you feel optimistic that we're going to, I mean, and
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: your movie is obviously, you know, you did it in 24,
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: and we've obviously been talking about autocracy and dictatorships a
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: lot in the Western world. Are you optimistic that Hollywood
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: can react in the way that it did in the
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: 70s and sort of be fertile again? Or do you
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: feel like the system is fucked beyond repair?
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: I'm very bad with this. you know, predictions. I don't,
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: I never know what's going to happen. And I don't
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: know how the impact of technology is going to have
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: in our, in what we do. I can see that
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: the AI thing is, you know, is moving so fast.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: There's AI actors already, you know, like, I don't know,
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't know the grip of this technology.
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: The film, The Secret Agent had, if you, if you noticed,
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: It had a very huge, Kleber Mendoza, the director of
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: this film, he loves American films, as I do, from
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: the 70s.
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and is very influenced by that.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: Very clear, even with the way he shoots with the
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: panamorphic lenses and the zooms and the political aspects of
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: Three Days of Condor and all those films from Peckinpah, from,
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: you know, De Palma and.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: Peckinpah, all these.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: Pakula... This is a great era for films in the world.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: And the clothes are so fucking awesome, let's just say.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the clothes are great. I hope so. Listen, I hope.
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: Are you kidding? You look amazing.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: The clothes are great, but to your question, I hope so.
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: I really liked One Battle After Another. I thought that
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: it was a great film. you know, about a revolution
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: in the future. And also, like, again, like a film
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: that was, they shot it, I don't know when they
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: shot that, but, you know, and then all these, a
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: film that starts with lots of Latinos getting, you know,
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: in a prison and the revolutionaries freeing them and Yeah,
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: I think filmmakers and artists will keep doing our thing.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: It's like despite of economical powers and Hollywood and the
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: grip that money has on the studios and the technology thing.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: And I think we'll keep doing our thing. It's just
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: what we do.
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: Well, you said something really beautiful at the beginning of this,
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: which I want to get back to before we close
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: it out, which is, you know, generational trauma can be
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: passed down, but so can, I'm getting it wrong already.
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: Is it generational hope? I mean, I think one of
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: the- Values, yeah.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: Values.
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: You said generational trauma can be passed down, but so
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: can generational values. And I think, honestly, one of the
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: ways you remind people, we remind ourselves of who we
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: are and in all of our complexities is through art, right?
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: It's like this film is a reminder of what happened
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: in Brazil, but it's a way for Brazil to also
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: reconcile her past or his past, whatever. And it's holding
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: a mirror back up to ourselves. But that's also how we,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: it's a statement of values and priorities that you make
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: art like that, right? That one battle after another and
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: the secret agent are both going to be Best Picture
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: nominees is a value statement about what matters and what
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: resonates in our culture. And that's really hopeful.
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: I think so. I think so too. And I think
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: that this is so, it's been so important, you know,
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: because the far right in Brazil, they were very efficient
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: in transforming artists, of course, into the enemies of the people.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: There's a big discussion in Brazil about if the government
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: should fund culture or not. Of course, the far right says, no,
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: we shouldn't, they shouldn't do that. And they say that
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: all these artists, they are using the money that we
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: should build a school or a hospital and we're doing
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: a film.
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: It's bullshit. That's a false statement. That's a false choice.
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: It's the false. But people, it's crazy because people see
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: that and people go like, oh yeah, I prefer a
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: school than a fucking film. And this has been a battle,
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: one battle after another, that we are fighting in Brazil
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: against this kind of thing because no country, listen, I
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: grew up watching American films, right? So that for me
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: were international films that I saw with subtitles. But my
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: understanding of what the U.S. is comes from the films
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: that I saw. Yeah. Every time I think about Christmas,
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: although in Brazil it's summer, I think about snow because
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: of the American Christmas films. And that was something that
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: was important for me to read your country, to have
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: empathy for these people, to admire things about this culture,
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: to think. And to see things that I didn't like
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: as well and to go like, oh, that's not cool.
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: And to form an idea of other countries. But I
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: guess it's even more important for an American, for Americans
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: throughout history, like to be able to see themselves, to
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: go like, oh, so this is who we are.
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: We are, this is, and great things. And that's the
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: shaping of a culture. No country develops without that. So
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: the false dichotomy of like hospitals or films, it's stupid
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: because we need films, we need books, we need to
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: see ourselves in our... I love what's going on in
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: Brazil right now. The way people are embracing this film,
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: even with the polarization and seeing like, this film represents us.
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: This is Brazil. This is a part of Brazil. It's
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: a part of Brazilian history. So, yeah, I think this
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: is indeed very, very important.
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like why, you know, the videos of Alex
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: Preddy and Renee Nicole Goode are really important. But then
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: it's also important to see Bad Bunny at the Super Bowl.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: And it's also important, you know, it's all of a piece.
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: It's all America. And the truth is, is not distilled
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: into just one image, but many images, right?
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: Can I ask you, like, do you know what you're
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: going to say if you win?
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: I really don't expect that.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: Are you going to say ice out?
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: I'm kidding. I have no idea. I think that we got,
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: I'm so happy that we honestly, like, no bullshit, we
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: got so far. It's crazy. You know, this Brazilian film
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: had four nominations to the Academy Awards. We won. awards
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: in can we won awards in the golden globes it's
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: great you know i think that we we are where
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: we where we didn't really dream to be when we
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: were doing this movie so yeah as of as a
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: you know i i don't i don't think i don't
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: have expectations like queen and award.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: This time really You've given more thought to what happens
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: if ICE detains you than if you actually win the
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: Academy Award.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: That I should be definitely thinking about. Why isn't he here? Oh,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: he's detained. Oh, my God.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: Well, that would be amazing for the cause. Let's just
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: be clear.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: Now, I could have a chance.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: Now, thanks to this podcast, we've put a target on
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: your back. Not the intention at all. And we know
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: you would get out fast.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: That would generate lots of publicity for sure.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: Well, listen, I hope that you win it and there's
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: no ICE agents anywhere near. It's an extraordinary film. You're
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: an extraordinary. It's just, it's so reassuring to have artists
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: who are also politically engaged and just so fucking awake.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: It's awesome. It's great to have you on a program
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: like this. And it means a lot, both I think
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: for us here at Crooked, but also for our audience
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: and It's just great to see a handshake between politics
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: and art that's so effortless and so real.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: I think that they walk together. I think that they're
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: really entangled. Our arts and politics is sort of like
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: the same. I think that's how I see it.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: Listen. I wanted to be an actor, but I became
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: a journalist. You wanted to be a journalist, became an actor.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: I think we ended up in our right lanes.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: And we're both Wagner.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: And we both. We needed a Wagner in journalism.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: There's a lot in common here, Alex.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: We're siblings from a different mother. I don't know. Something
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: like that. It is a true pleasure, Wagner. Thank you
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: for spending some time with me today. You're the best.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: Thank you to Wagner Mora. for being such a sport
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: about all of this. I hope this doesn't dim your
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: prospects getting a Pixar movie. But keep making these movies
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: and everybody, please keep supporting artists who can have conversations
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: like this in the middle of an Academy Awards season
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: by going to see The Secret Agent, which is streaming now,
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: or by going back into the vaults and checking out
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: season one of Narcos, where he is totally awesome. Thank
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: you to Wagner for doing this. And thank you guys
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: all for listening.
• 1:02:27
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