Latest / Talking Michigan Transportation / As car-deer crashes persist, MDNR urges hunters to take action

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As car-deer crashes persist, MDNR urges hunters to take action · Talking Michigan Transportation

• 0:07
  Jeff Cranson: Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast.
• 0:10
  Jeff Cranson: I'm Jeff Cranson.
• 0:11
  Jeff Cranson: I hadn't planned to revisit what wildlife and the roadways mean in terms of transportation in terms of transportation causing crashes, causing people to swerve or veer or, you know, hitting animals anything from deer to turtles to raccoons.
• 0:36
  Jeff Cranson: But the Detroit Free Press had a really interesting story this week about creative things that the Department of Natural Resources in Michigan is doing to try to deal with the abundance of deer in southern Michigan.
• 0:47
  Jeff Cranson: They've proliferated for a lot of different reasons and DNR is trying to be very creative in incentivizing people to get out and hunt more, because hunting has been in decline for several years decades really and there's a direct tie between people not hunting as much and the deer population thriving, making its way into, you know, even urban areas of cities.
• 1:11
  Jeff Cranson: So I'm going to talk with Ed Golder, who is my counterpart at the Michigan Department of Natural Resources.
• 1:18
  Jeff Cranson: He and his colleagues have studied this extensively.
• 1:22
  Jeff Cranson: They have a lot of research and they're trying a lot of really creative things to try to get the deer population under control, which matters not just because of disease and diseases that are spread by deer when they proliferate the way they have, but there's a lot more of them in the roads.
• 1:39
  Jeff Cranson: Estimates are some 55,000 car deer collisions in Michigan last year, and that number doesn't even account for those that aren't reported, which could be many.
• 1:49
  Jeff Cranson: So I hope you enjoy the conversation, Ed.
• 1:52
  Jeff Cranson: Thanks again for a return visit to the podcast.
• 1:55
  Jeff Cranson: Last time we did this we talked about the olden days when we had our own in the media world.
• 2:02
  Jeff Cranson: Right, right, good to be here.
• 2:04
  Ed Golder: I don't think we ever talked about this topic, though, so this is you, we didn't which is a topic of great interest to both of us, I think.
• 2:11
  Jeff Cranson: You did talk about Asian carp.
• 2:12
  Jeff Cranson: I recall that was still part of the ecosphere at the time.
• 2:17
  Ed Golder: Right, we talked about that frequently and we should.
• 2:21
  Ed Golder: Yeah, that wouldn't be a transportation issue necessarily, although there's a lockdown in Illinois that's implicated.
• 2:30
  Ed Golder: But we've made great movement on that issue at the DNR, so that's pretty exciting.
• 2:35
  Jeff Cranson: Well, if you're in a boat and you know, a fish jumps up and smacks you in the face, I guess that's a transportation issue.
• 2:40
  Ed Golder: It certainly can be.
• 2:41
  Ed Golder: That's right, it certainly can be.
• 2:43
  Jeff Cranson: That's right.
• 2:44
  Jeff Cranson: So, just give me a little bit of an overview on this topic and how it is that the deer population has swelled so much, especially, well, really in southern Michigan, and what we think of as downstate.
• 3:07
  Ed Golder: Right, right.
• 3:07
  Ed Golder: An important distinction you just made there, Jeff.
• 3:08
  Ed Golder: I mean, certainly in the Upper Peninsula, I think we've got almost a mirror issue where we're concerned about too few deer.
• 3:11
  Ed Golder: But in Southern Lower Michigan, Southern Lower Peninsula, it's certainly true that we've seen an increase in the deer population and there are a number of things driving that.
• 3:22
  Ed Golder: Certainly, milder winters helps, right?
• 3:27
  Ed Golder: Deer thrive in milder winters.
• 3:40
  Ed Golder: It helps Deer thrive in milder winters.
• 3:42
  Ed Golder: Winter mortality is one of the limiting factors.
• 3:44
  Ed Golder: On talk about more, but the reality is we've relied in the past on hunters to help manage the deer herd and there just aren't as many of them anymore.
• 3:53
  Ed Golder: So you know, that's one of the big driving factors and one of the things that we're wrestling with as a department.
• 4:03
  Ed Golder: We talk all the time about our three efforts, which is recruitment, reactivation and retention of hunters and other people in fishing and hunting in particular.
• 4:17
  Ed Golder: But to go out and create a new hunter out of whole cloth, new hunter out of whole cloth, that's a huge process and one that we find is hard to succeed at.
• 4:33
  Ed Golder: So those are some of the things that are driving that, In addition to there just aren't as many places to hunt deer in the southern lower on public lands.
• 4:43
  Ed Golder: We've got an abundance of public lands in Michigan, in the northern lower peninsula and in the upper peninsula.
• 4:50
  Ed Golder: In fact we've got the largest holding of public land state managed public land anywhere in the lower 48 states.
• 4:56
  Ed Golder: But you know, finding those opportunities in the southern lower is a little harder to come by.
• 5:01
  Ed Golder: So we've been very conscious in the past few years about that public land management and uh and providing opportunities for people to recreate on public lands closer to where they live, including hunting so that's a long answer.
• 5:17
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, that is, but let's let's come back to those game areas and and the the state managed lands you're talking about in a bit.
• 5:25
  Jeff Cranson: But, you know, I framed this whole thing.
• 5:28
  Jeff Cranson: I talked in the intro about how I had thought I had pretty much explored this issue in two previous podcasts with what your department and MDOT are doing jointly to apply for a grant for, you know, better wildlife crossings and things that we know.
• 5:44
  Jeff Cranson: There's only so much that can be done about deer because they're just everywhere.
• 5:48
  Jeff Cranson: But the Free Press reported the story that kind of you know provoked me to bring this up again that hunters reported killing 30,000 fewer deer in 2023 than the year before.
• 6:00
  Jeff Cranson: That's just that's an enormous decrease.
• 6:03
  Jeff Cranson: When did you first notice the trend toward decline in hunting and what are the theories about why that is?
• 6:10
  Ed Golder: Yeah, that's a big question that people in my world talk about all the time and I don't know that I have all the answers, but I'll tell you some of the theories.
• 6:17
  Ed Golder: So the decline in hunting has been going on for the past several decades.
• 6:22
  Ed Golder: Um, there's this big shift, this demographic shift that's occurring in hunting uh, where, uh, you know, the hunters just tend to be older, uh, sort of baby boomers, uh, like you and me.
• 6:34
  Ed Golder: Um and uh you know they were, they were taught to hunt, growing up and and imbued with that conservation ethic, that hunting, uh was a good thing that helped control the deer herd and was a great recreational opportunity.
• 6:47
  Ed Golder: But there are just fewer and fewer people doing it.
• 6:51
  Ed Golder: There's urbanization happening right, it's not as stark in our state as in other places, but it's certainly one of the trends that's going on.
• 6:58
  Ed Golder: So more urban people tend to be less connected to the land and the woods and so don't hunt as much.
• 7:03
  Ed Golder: Less connected to the land and the woods and so don't hunt as much.
• 7:06
  Ed Golder: And certainly there's a broad shift in our society toward video games and that kind of stuff, so younger people tend to be more enraptured by those sorts of activities.
• 7:19
  Jeff Cranson: So the deer are probably donating to the video game lobby?
• 7:22
  Jeff Cranson: Is that what you're saying?
• 7:25
  Ed Golder: I'm sure that, yeah, I'm sure they are.
• 7:27
  Ed Golder: Yeah, the more video games, the better as far as the deer are concerned.
• 7:31
  Ed Golder: But that's not the only reason.
• 7:33
  Ed Golder: I mean, I see, like you, I'm out in the woods all the time, backpacking, hiking, you know, I'm on the water all the time.
• 7:40
  Ed Golder: I see young people out there all the time.
• 7:42
  Ed Golder: It's just that their recreational interests are not, uh, that of their parents and grandparents.
• 7:49
  Ed Golder: Um, you know, they, they tend to want to hike, and they tend to want a mountain bike, and they tend to want a fat tire bike and all those cool, exciting things, uh, but not necessarily hunt, um, so, um, so it's a, it's a trend.
• 8:02
  Ed Golder: We see about a 3% drop in the number of hunters, deer hunters in particular, every year no-transcript.
• 8:17
  Jeff Cranson: I wonder if there are other things at work.
• 8:20
  Jeff Cranson: I wonder if it's viewed as a hassle to people, like all the stuff you got to do, you know, to gear up for it, and has it lost its social aspect?
• 8:32
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, you know it was a huge rite of passage in Michigan for years to go to deer camp in November and, you know, hang out with folks.
• 8:42
  Ed Golder: Absolutely.
• 8:42
  Ed Golder: I think that's part of the the reality too.
• 8:44
  Ed Golder: People have less leisure time, you know.
• 8:48
  Ed Golder: People may not own that cabin up North or that hunting camp up North like they used to.
• 8:53
  Ed Golder: You know.
• 8:55
  Ed Golder: Yeah, there was probably a time when people on the line at GM went up and spent a couple of weeks, you know, at deer camp and, and it was, it was a great family event, right, you'd take your kids, you'd take your friends, you'd.
• 9:08
  Ed Golder: You know it was, it was, it was Christmas in November for a lot of people and and yeah, that doesn't exist as much as it used to.
• 9:17
  Ed Golder: I think and to your point earlier, it's it's like I was talking about earlier there are barriers to entry for people who've never hunted before.
• 9:26
  Ed Golder: So when I joined the department I hadn't hunted a bunch and I went and took a class and then was fortunate to go out with one of our great turkey biologists.
• 9:35
  Ed Golder: We were turkey hunting and he helped me bag a turkey my first time out.
• 9:38
  Ed Golder: But not everybody has that kind of support, right.
• 9:43
  Ed Golder: So I know there are great organizations National Wild Turkey Federation and others that are working on getting people into hunting, but, as you said, it's a tough entry for some people.
• 9:56
  Jeff Cranson: We will continue the conversation right after a quick break conversation right after a quick break.
• 10:07
  Ed Golder: No, before you go, head on over to MyDrive to check out the latest on road construction and possible delays along your route.
• 10:09
  Ed Golder: For a detailed map, head over to michigangov slash drive.
• 10:18
  Jeff Cranson: So tell me why this is a concern of the DNR.
• 10:20
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, obviously, from a transportation aspect.
• 10:22
  Jeff Cranson: We know that more deer means more crashes.
• 10:26
  Jeff Cranson: And Kent County for years, when you and I were writing about these things, reporting on these things, kent County was always a leader in the state.
• 10:58
  Ed Golder: And now I don't know if that's the case anymore.
• 11:02
  Ed Golder: There's several counties downstate that seem to be seeing this that our deer biologist, our chief deer biologist, chad Stewart, wrote to hunters last year prior to the season and he prefaced the letter by saying look, I know this is going to offend some people, but I just want to tell you we got to start killing more does in this state, and he was talking to hunters of a certain generation for whom there was a conservation ethic, and a good one.
• 11:31
  Ed Golder: You know at the time that they were coming up as hunters that you just didn't kill does because that helped manage the herd and help make sure we had a sustaining herd.
• 11:41
  Ed Golder: But the realities of our herd have shifted and changed and we have an interest, just like you do, in making sure that the herd is managed, doesn't become too dense.
• 11:50
  Ed Golder: You know there are disease implications to a dense herd.
• 11:53
  Ed Golder: There are social implications, you know.
• 11:56
  Ed Golder: So there are all kinds of things we're worried about.
• 12:00
  Ed Golder: So, yeah, one of our crusades has been to encourage people to harvest more does.
• 12:04
  Ed Golder: The reason for that is a buck can father many fawns, but if you kill a doe you've taken away the possibility of twins or triplets in successive seasons.
• 12:23
  Ed Golder: So that's a very effective way of managing the herd.
• 12:27
  Ed Golder: And in Michigan our doe harvest is out of whack compared to other states.
• 12:33
  Ed Golder: In particular, we just don't harvest as many does as we can or should.
• 12:37
  Ed Golder: And again, a lot of this has to do with that conservation ethic that people held for many years for a lot of good reasons, and so we're trying to get to hunters and say, look, you know, that dynamic has changed in this part of the state anyway, in the southern lower peninsula, and there's good reason why we should be harvesting a lot of does at this point, and we've made all kinds of opportunities for them to do that.
• 12:58
  Jeff Cranson: So it's kind of a cultural change.
• 13:00
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, it is, it is yeah, so you know.
• 13:03
  Jeff Cranson: Again, going to the proliferation of deer downstate, you know what do you, I guess?
• 13:09
  Jeff Cranson: What does the agency tell people in exurbs, suburbs, now even urban areas?
• 13:13
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, in my urban neighborhood in the city of Grand Rapids, I was walking the dog the other day and there was a deer standing in the front yard of a ranch home and a densely populated ranch home Probably chewing on a hosta huh.
• 13:28
  Jeff Cranson: Well, I was going to say that, yeah, hosta seems like a smorgasbord, but I hear from other people that are losing roses and other flowers and certainly garden vegetables.
• 13:36
  Jeff Cranson: Is some of this misguided people that feed them intentionally?
• 13:42
  Ed Golder: You're right.
• 13:42
  Ed Golder: There are people who are just having their plants decimated by deer.
• 13:47
  Ed Golder: I think I was telling you.
• 13:48
  Ed Golder: The other day I was talking to our deer biologist.
• 13:50
  Ed Golder: I looked out at my front door and also at Grand Rapids neighborhood, and there's a deer eating the flowers my wife had put out there.
• 14:00
  Ed Golder: So that's certainly a reality.
• 14:03
  Ed Golder: And to your other point, yeah, also in my neighborhood people are feeding deer.
• 14:08
  Ed Golder: I've stopped and asked them not to.
• 14:10
  Ed Golder: I've explained to them that in Michigan, in the lower peninsula, right now it's illegal to feed deer or to bait deer, and part of the reason for that is that you know we have chronic wasting disease in our deer herd, which is a dangerous disease that can have a, you know, detrimental impact on the herd, and having deer feed nose to nose like that can increase the spread of that and other diseases.
• 14:36
  Ed Golder: So you know, people, especially who don't stay connected to hunting, may not know or understand that.
• 14:47
  Ed Golder: Uh, and, people love to look at deer.
• 14:49
  Jeff Cranson: I love to look at deer, but um but doing that when they run, they're very graceful you know, it's a it's a cool thing to watch.
• 14:57
  Jeff Cranson: I don't know how to reconcile that either with the fact that they're more than just a nuisance they're a danger.
• 15:03
  Ed Golder: Yeah, absolutely.
• 15:04
  Ed Golder: In fact, the area I'm talking about in my neighborhood, where people feed deer, it's not only congregating deer artificially, but it's moving them across the roadway that I drive regularly, where it's more likely that you're going to hit deer.
• 15:18
  Ed Golder: So I've actually talked to our conservation officers about that, that, and they've been out there a couple of times, I think, trying to ask people to don't do that.
• 15:27
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, yeah, quite simply don't do that.
• 15:29
  Jeff Cranson: Well, talk about some of the changes that have been made and that are coming in this.
• 15:35
  Jeff Cranson: Well, already kind of in place, because some of the varieties of season have already begun.
• 15:41
  Jeff Cranson: Can you talk about that, yeah?
• 15:43
  Ed Golder: yeah, I mean, when we talk about deer season, we actually talk about seasons, right?
• 15:47
  Ed Golder: I mean there are seasons that begin in September and, yeah, our Natural Resources Commission has created more and more opportunities for people to take does, to take antlerless deer to be more precise, because sometimes at a distance you can't tell whether that antlerless deer is a doe or a buck.
• 16:05
  Ed Golder: But, um, but, uh, you know the the part of the concern again is that conservation ethic I was talking about.
• 16:14
  Ed Golder: Are people actually going to do that?
• 16:15
  Ed Golder: And part of the concern is, uh, you know we've noticed that as many opportunities you give people, as many licenses as you give people in areas of the state where you want to increase antelope harvest, people are still going to cap out at a certain point.
• 16:29
  Ed Golder: I think a number I saw in Chad's piece was only 1% of our hunters take as many as four deer or doe.
• 16:42
  Ed Golder: So you know there's only so much time, so much freezer space, so much desire on the part of people to take deer.
• 16:51
  Ed Golder: So you know that's what we're struggling with.
• 16:56
  Ed Golder: One of the things we're working on real quickly, jeff, and I know you didn't ask about this, but there's a great program where we provide.
• 17:02
  Ed Golder: You know we work with organizations to provide deer meat to food pantries organizations to provide deer meat to food pantries and we do that during the regular season and we do it for farmers who have to take deer off their land because of crop degradation or crop damage.
• 17:19
  Ed Golder: We've looked at that program as an opportunity to help manage the herd in our part of the state as well.
• 17:26
  Ed Golder: We just got money in the budget to get some freezers so we can put those out on farmer's land when they're doing out-of-season harvest of deer so that we can get those deer to food pantries to help feed families in need.
• 17:41
  Ed Golder: So if we can increase that program and increase the take of that program, it really serves two needs at once, which is a great opportunity.
• 17:50
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, those are some creative ideas.
• 17:51
  Jeff Cranson: Is there anything else that people should know?
• 17:54
  Jeff Cranson: Going into even, you know, beyond December this year, there's going to be some things going on right.
• 18:02
  Ed Golder: Yeah, there's some late harvest opportunities.
• 18:04
  Ed Golder: You can find those on michigangov backslash DNR.
• 18:07
  Jeff Cranson: I will link to those in the show notes.
• 18:09
  Ed Golder: Thank you, thank you.
• 18:10
  Ed Golder: Don't feed deer, it doesn't help, makes them artificially dependent on humans.
• 18:18
  Ed Golder: And look for those opportunities to harvest deer and learn about this program, sportsman Against Hunger, that has helped feed you know many, many families since its inception in the early 90s.
• 18:31
  Ed Golder: I think they've donated about a million pounds of venison to food pantries and others in that time.
• 18:38
  Ed Golder: So lots of opportunities to help if you're a hunter, or even if you're not hunter, or even if you're not.
• 18:46
  Jeff Cranson: I should also mention that that car deer crash number, according to stats that are kept by various police agencies, some 55,000 last year.
• 18:56
  Jeff Cranson: Those are just the reported stats.
• 19:02
  Jeff Cranson: We have every reason to believe that there are many, many more collisions that involve deer and probably all kinds of animals that are never reported, right, I'm sure that's true.
• 19:07
  Ed Golder: I'm sure that's true and I'm excited about this opportunity you talked about earlier, with MDOT and us in cooperation, trying to identify wildlife corridors and see if we can do something about that in other ways.
• 19:19
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, and I think that something else people need to know is that the risk isn't just that you know you run into this deer and it, you know, do damage to your car and possibly injure you for whatever reason, that it, you know, makes its way through the windshield or, you know, causes you to stop quickly and all kinds of things can happen.
• 19:38
  Jeff Cranson: But that people swerve, that's a natural instinct that you you know.
• 19:42
  Jeff Cranson: You see an animal and you want to swerve.
• 19:43
  Jeff Cranson: And people have talked about it previously with our wildlife specialist resource specialist and your people too, about the turtles.
• 19:53
  Jeff Cranson: And really well-meaning people will pull over on the side of the road when they see a slow turtle, because turtles are slow, and try to help it across.
• 20:02
  Jeff Cranson: And they're creating another hazard by doing that.
• 20:05
  Jeff Cranson: And I get the instinct because I love turtles, hazard by doing that, and I get the instinct because I love turtles.
• 20:11
  Jeff Cranson: But all these things you know, all these, all these animals and all these things that, uh, our, our hearts tell us we want to do to help them can can cause traffic crashes, yep, yep, crashes, not accidents, right, very good, I'm learning.
• 20:24
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, no, that's good, I appreciate it.
• 20:26
  Jeff Cranson: Uh, this is.
• 20:27
  Jeff Cranson: This is helpful.
• 20:28
  Jeff Cranson: I hope that.
• 20:29
  Jeff Cranson: I hope this gets the word out about what can be done, what is being done, and wish you luck, because it really it matters to.
• 20:36
  Jeff Cranson: You know the loss of property and medical bills and all kinds of things, the ways that it affects our lives, our insurance rates and and and other things.
• 20:46
  Jeff Cranson: So thanks for thanks for doing what you do.
• 20:49
  Ed Golder: Absolutely Happy to be here with you, Jeff.
• 20:53
  Jeff Cranson: I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation.
• 20:55
  Jeff Cranson: You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Buzzsprout.
• 20:59
  Jeff Cranson: I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Debler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, Courtney Bates, who posts the podcast to various platforms, and Jackie Salinas, who transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.