Latest / The Trauma Therapist / From the archives: Christine A. Courtois, PhD, ABPP

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From the archives: Christine A. Courtois, PhD, ABPP · The Trauma Therapist

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Speaker 1: Today we even another episode from the archives with one
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Speaker 1: of my incredible guests. Enjoy Welcome to the Trauma Therpists podcast,
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Speaker 1: a show about the incredible people dedicated to helping those
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Speaker 1: of experienced trauma. My name is gy McPherson, and my
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Speaker 1: mission is to raise awareness of trauma and to inspire
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Speaker 1: each of us to help those around us.
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Speaker 2: All right, Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name
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Speaker 2: is Gay McPherson, and this is the podcast where we
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Speaker 2: interview master trauma therapists from all of the world to
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Speaker 2: learn about what inspires them and the steps they've taken
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Speaker 2: to become.
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Speaker 3: Masters in their field.
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Speaker 2: If you're a trauma therapist, if you're interested in trauma therapy,
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Speaker 2: or if you're simply passionate about helping other people, this
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Speaker 2: is it today. I am so excited to introduce my guest,
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Speaker 2: Doctor Chris Courtois.
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Speaker 3: Chris, are you ready to go?
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Speaker 4: I am all right.
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Speaker 1: So.
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Speaker 2: Doctor Courtois specializes in the treatment of trauma, particularly for
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Speaker 2: adults experiencing the effects of childhood incests and other forms
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Speaker 2: of sexual, physical, and emotional abuse. She's worked with these
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Speaker 2: issues for thirty years and has developed treatment approaches for
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Speaker 2: complex post traumatic and associative conditions, for which she's received
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Speaker 2: international recognition. Her new book is Spiritually Oriented Psychotherapy for Trauma,
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Speaker 2: edited along with Donald Walker and Jamie Atton, is available
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Speaker 2: now at Amazon dot com, and she has an additional
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Speaker 2: book which we'll talk about shortly. Chris, I've told her
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Speaker 2: listeners just a little bit about you take a moment,
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Speaker 2: let us know something personal about yourself, and then we
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Speaker 2: will dive in.
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Speaker 4: Okay, something personal as I originally come from the state
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Speaker 4: of Rhode Island. I was raised there, and so my
1:45
Speaker 4: accent sometimes gets muddied and people think that I come
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Speaker 4: from New York, Okay, but I live in Washington, d C.
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Speaker 4: I've been in private practice for better than thirty five
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Speaker 4: years now, specializing and working with adult survivors. I've also
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Speaker 4: run an inpatient unit for adult survivors for sixteen years,
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Speaker 4: and currently I'm a clinical consultant, National Clinical Trauma consultant
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Speaker 4: to Elements Behavioral Health Health, which is a relatively new
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Speaker 4: health organization and where putting trauma informed care into addiction
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Speaker 4: services for that for the whole organization.
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Speaker 2: Great okay, so great introduction there. So this podcast is
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Speaker 2: about getting to know you seasoned clinicians with goal of
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Speaker 2: inspiring other therapists. In order to do that, we first
2:41
Speaker 2: start out really with, you know, hearing what's inspired you,
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Speaker 2: what's kind of influenced you along this path. Share with us, Chris,
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Speaker 2: if you will, a mantra, a quote, whatever it is
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Speaker 2: that's guided you on this journey.
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Speaker 4: I have many that I can offer you, but one
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Speaker 4: that I live by is first, do no more harm.
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Speaker 4: I think that we really have to recognize as we
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Speaker 4: do this work that we are dealing with individuals, and
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Speaker 4: especially with interpersonal violence, that we're dealing with individuals who
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Speaker 4: have been profoundly injured by other people. And so it
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Speaker 4: is a very sacred obligation to us to do the
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Speaker 4: work responsibly and ethically so that we are not causing
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Speaker 4: additional harm to people who have already been injured. Which
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Speaker 4: isn't to say that we're not going to make mistakes
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Speaker 4: as therapist. I'm glad you're asking about those kinds of questions,
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Speaker 4: but it does mean that we really need to be
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Speaker 4: mindful of the population that we're serving and not adding
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Speaker 4: more to their burden. And consumers have told us. Consumer
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Speaker 4: clients have told us that they've been hurt by mental
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Speaker 4: health professionals. And that's one of the things that inspires me,
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Speaker 4: is in training professionals is to help that that doesn't
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Speaker 4: happen again.
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Speaker 3: So first, do no more harm?
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Speaker 2: All right, break that down for a little for us, Chris,
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Speaker 2: When did that first, you know, become resonant for you?
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Speaker 3: Tell us a story, Take us down to a ground
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Speaker 3: level for us.
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Speaker 4: Why that quote, Well, because I had been hearing since
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Speaker 4: the start of my career and even before I started
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Speaker 4: seeing these clients clinically. My dissertation was an interview study
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Speaker 4: of adult survivors of ancestuous abuse, and many of them
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Speaker 4: told stories of being mistreated by individuals in the mental
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Speaker 4: health profession or the medical profession who were unaware of
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Speaker 4: the role of psychological trauma. And unawareness is one thing,
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Speaker 4: but there are also practitioners out there who really don't
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Speaker 4: like this population or have stigmatized them. Many of them
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Speaker 4: have often have been labeled as borderline or even bad
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Speaker 4: borderline clients, which is an indication that there's something wrong
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Speaker 4: with them and they can't heal, and so it's really
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Speaker 4: added to the burden. And we know that healing is possible,
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Speaker 4: and there are approaches that are now called trauma informed
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Speaker 4: care approaches to the population that really offers them respect
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Speaker 4: and understanding and information about their condition rather than you know,
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Speaker 4: really stigmatizing them or putting an additional burden on them.
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Speaker 2: All Right, So that's that's exactly what we need to hear,
5:45
Speaker 2: just to get more specific about you know what's kind
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Speaker 2: of informing you again.
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Speaker 3: This podcast is about.
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Speaker 2: Highlighting your journey to become a master trauma therapist. You know,
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Speaker 2: people enter into this field for a variety of reasons.
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Speaker 2: You know, you just mentioned why or an instance of
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Speaker 2: some clinicians not wanting to get into this field for
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Speaker 2: a variety of reasons. Myself, you know, I had a
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Speaker 2: lot to do with my brother coming back from the
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Speaker 2: Special Forces with PTSD and me not knowing what to
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Speaker 2: do but really kind of screwing it up. Tell us
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Speaker 2: the story, Chris, break it down for us. What got
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Speaker 2: you into this field of.
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Speaker 3: Trauma.
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Speaker 4: Well, it's a pretty interesting story. I got involved. I
6:32
Speaker 4: went to the University of Maryland for my graduate training
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Speaker 4: and at the time, I was training to be a
6:39
Speaker 4: college administrator, and I was putting myself through college through
6:44
Speaker 4: the graduate school by working as a dorm director and
6:48
Speaker 4: unfortunate series of incidents happened while I was a dorm
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Speaker 4: director that were extremely traumatic and traumatized me and everybody
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Speaker 4: who was around, but actually gave me my start. So
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Speaker 4: I like to say that I get into this field
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Speaker 4: by backing into it. But the events that happened on
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Speaker 4: campus where there are a series of kidnapping gang rapes
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Speaker 4: the year that I took over the dormitory and one
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Speaker 4: of my staff members was unfortunately one of the victims
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Speaker 4: of that traumatization, and there was very little information available
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Speaker 4: on how to help rape victims at the time, but
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Speaker 4: the movement was taking off and the DC Rape Crisis
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Speaker 4: Center was founded that very year. A number of us
7:36
Speaker 4: at the university were outraged by what had happened to
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Speaker 4: a number of women, and we developed to we just
7:43
Speaker 4: decided to develop a rape crisis center on campus, and
7:47
Speaker 4: actually I believe it's the first campus rape crisis center
7:50
Speaker 4: in the country. And while we're working that hutline, we
7:54
Speaker 4: started to get calls from women who were not being
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Speaker 4: raped as a else, but were being assaulted and raped
8:02
Speaker 4: in their homes, and that all of these events sort
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Speaker 4: of reoriented my career leanings. I found out that I
8:12
Speaker 4: was a good listener that I had a lot of empathy.
8:15
Speaker 4: I got a lot of good feedback, and so I
8:18
Speaker 4: changed my major from administration to counseling in counseling psychology.
8:24
Speaker 4: And when it came time to do my dissertation, Lenora Walker,
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Speaker 4: who had just finished her pioneering study of battered women,
8:35
Speaker 4: was actually on campus for a meeting and I was
8:37
Speaker 4: talking to her and I said, I was casting around
8:41
Speaker 4: for a dissipation topic, and she said, well, one of
8:44
Speaker 4: you study these women who are calling. But I couldn't
8:47
Speaker 4: study adolescents at the time. But what I did was
8:51
Speaker 4: decide to do an open call for women who had
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Speaker 4: had incest experience who would be willing to talk to
8:58
Speaker 4: me about it. Now, this was really radical in those days, obviously,
9:02
Speaker 4: and these were their very early days. And my committee
9:08
Speaker 4: at the University of Maryland, I was so fortunate because
9:11
Speaker 4: they decided to let me do this dissertation, which was
9:15
Speaker 4: a qualitative study, an interview study, and they set some
9:19
Speaker 4: parameters around it, which is that every question I asked
9:23
Speaker 4: I had to tie into the literature, and so it
9:27
Speaker 4: made me search very widely through the incests literature, and
9:32
Speaker 4: surprisingly there was one I never would have expected that,
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Speaker 4: but there was part of luminous literature, and it was
9:40
Speaker 4: mostly in social work and psychiatry and child welfare and
9:44
Speaker 4: not in psychology. So I ended up interviewing thirty women.
9:51
Speaker 4: I ended up later or repeating the survey and had
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Speaker 4: some male victims as well, and that really set the
9:59
Speaker 4: course for my interest in this population. There was a
10:04
Speaker 4: lot of attention at the time being paid to children
10:07
Speaker 4: and children who were being abused in whatever way in
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Speaker 4: the family, but there was less attention being paid to
10:14
Speaker 4: adults who had already gone through the experience, and that
10:17
Speaker 4: became my area of expertise in nineteen In the mid eighties,
10:26
Speaker 4: I felt that somehow I had a book in me
10:30
Speaker 4: about this topic, and I approached publishers. I again got
10:34
Speaker 4: lucky and Norton. An editor at Norton, Susan Monroe, took
10:41
Speaker 4: me on as a our brand new writer. She had
10:45
Speaker 4: no reason to suspect that I could write and took
10:49
Speaker 4: me on. And it took me a number of years,
10:52
Speaker 4: but I ended up writing the book Healing the Incests Wound.
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Speaker 4: It got published in nineteen eighty eight and it turned
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Speaker 4: out to be a three good page tone and I
11:03
Speaker 4: was still in graduate student mindset, and I never expected
11:07
Speaker 4: that anybody would read my book, much less that it
11:10
Speaker 4: would become well received and you know, sort of a
11:14
Speaker 4: classic in the field. So this is a long story,
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Speaker 4: but this is how I this is how I get
11:18
Speaker 4: into the field.
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Speaker 2: No, it's it's a it's actually a great story, and
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Speaker 2: it's exactly what we're kind of looking for here.
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Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's just amazing.
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Speaker 2: How you know, you talked about starting off with the
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Speaker 2: University of Maryland thinking hoping you're going to be getting
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Speaker 2: into college administration, and then you're profoundly impacted by these events,
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Speaker 2: I mean just these serious, kind of horrific events, you know,
11:43
Speaker 2: let's call them what they are, and specifically one which
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Speaker 2: affected one of your your staff members, and you said
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Speaker 2: that you were outraged over what.
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Speaker 3: Happened, and was that.
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Speaker 2: Was was that kind of the full crumb on which
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Speaker 2: everything shifted for you, this outr age or you know,
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Speaker 2: I find it interesting that you know, we start something,
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Speaker 2: we started journey and something shifts and causes us to
12:12
Speaker 2: shift gears a little. You talked about being a good
12:15
Speaker 2: listener and finding out that you were really a good
12:17
Speaker 2: fit for this field. Was where what was that point
12:21
Speaker 2: that that that switched for you internally.
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Speaker 3: Do you think it was that point.
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Speaker 4: Of outrage and really and really learning how commonplace rape
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Speaker 4: and other forms of sexual assault were, and and even
12:36
Speaker 4: being being even more outraged by ancestorous abuse because not
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Speaker 4: only it's an assault, but it's an assault by by
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Speaker 4: someone related to the victim, and it's a lot more complicated.
12:48
Speaker 4: I mean, I certainly have learned a lot more since then,
12:52
Speaker 4: but in the early years, we were, you know, we
12:56
Speaker 4: did not have a good basis of understanding it, and
12:59
Speaker 4: so we're talking about stranger rape and then all of
13:02
Speaker 4: a sudden, we're talking about rape by family members. You know,
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Speaker 4: it was exponentially that more outrageous or that much more
13:11
Speaker 4: you know, disturbing. And then you know, if you don't
13:15
Speaker 4: even go that far, if you look at the statistics
13:17
Speaker 4: of rape on campus that started even back then, there's
13:21
Speaker 4: a one in five chance for a woman to be
13:24
Speaker 4: raped during her college career. And that is just an
13:29
Speaker 4: astounding statistic. And you know, with all the attention that's
13:32
Speaker 4: being placed at a rape on campus these days, that
13:37
Speaker 4: statistic has not changed in forty years. It's really remarkable,
13:42
Speaker 4: with all our efforts, and that makes me outraged as well.
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Speaker 2: It is it is, you know, and and that word
13:49
Speaker 2: out outrageous in a sense is really one of the
13:53
Speaker 2: impetuses for this podcast.
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Speaker 3: You know, one of my roles is working in a clinic.
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Speaker 2: We see a lot of kids with the early psycho
14:00
Speaker 2: and we get these calls day after day after day,
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Speaker 2: and you know, not surprisingly, most of these kids have
14:07
Speaker 2: have been abused and there's trauma and what is going on.
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Speaker 2: You know, that really was the emotion behind behind doing this.
14:16
Speaker 2: But you know, I really appreciate you kind of elaborating
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Speaker 2: on that. So, you know, we talked a little bit
14:23
Speaker 2: about your journey Chris, what led you into the field.
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Speaker 2: Now let's focus on you know, an early clinical error
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Speaker 2: share with us. Uh, you know, a mi quote unquote
14:33
Speaker 2: a mistake and error that happened for you and really
14:37
Speaker 2: maybe what you learn from that, how.
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Speaker 3: That influenced you. Excuse me, okay, you.
14:42
Speaker 4: Know, I think it's a kind of error that influences
14:45
Speaker 4: are all novice therapists and can be even more so
14:51
Speaker 4: for novice therapists dealing with trauma, and that is over
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Speaker 4: involvement and rescuing and also getting too close too fast
15:03
Speaker 4: trying to help, you know, by trying to fix it.
15:07
Speaker 4: And I think my major clinical error back then was
15:14
Speaker 4: in working with someone who was very highly traumatized it
15:18
Speaker 4: both in the past but had a lot of present
15:20
Speaker 4: day problems going on, and opening everything all at once
15:25
Speaker 4: and going along with her desire to treat the incest
15:29
Speaker 4: while the other things were going on, and it was
15:32
Speaker 4: way too much, and I was way too involved in
15:36
Speaker 4: her life, and I didn't have major boundary violations, but
15:41
Speaker 4: there was way too much contact and you know, not
15:46
Speaker 4: enough attention put on self regulation and slowing down and sequencing.
15:52
Speaker 4: The word sequencing is not in my first book, and
15:55
Speaker 4: it was only in nineteen ninety two when Judy Herman
15:58
Speaker 4: published her book Trauma Recovery, and several of us have
16:02
Speaker 4: finally gotten it by then that we realized that the
16:05
Speaker 4: work has to be really very mindfully paced, and that
16:12
Speaker 4: you know, you can't do it all at once, and
16:14
Speaker 4: if there are other traumas or other life stresses going on,
16:17
Speaker 4: that those kinds of issues probably need to be addressed
16:20
Speaker 4: first before we do anything else.
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Speaker 2: So you mentioned over involvement and rescuing and kind of
16:26
Speaker 2: going too fast. So with this one particular client that
16:30
Speaker 2: you mentioned, was it that you. You just started, you know,
16:35
Speaker 2: seeing this individual and things just took off for a session,
16:38
Speaker 2: second session, and.
16:41
Speaker 3: You just got caught up, like you said.
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Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, she was. She was in such bad shape
16:48
Speaker 4: early on, and really I didn't have the clinical experience
16:51
Speaker 4: at that time, but I started seeing her three times
16:54
Speaker 4: a week to support her. And then there were multiple
16:57
Speaker 4: phone calls in addition to three times a week since
17:01
Speaker 4: she was dealing with you know, current events as well
17:05
Speaker 4: as the ancestuous pass and passed and her past was
17:08
Speaker 4: really complicated severe, it was really overwhelming her. And instead
17:13
Speaker 4: of slowing it down and really pacing it, and you know,
17:16
Speaker 4: we just went forward and she ended up and this
17:20
Speaker 4: may have happened otherwise. She ended up being hospitalized in
17:24
Speaker 4: a number of times. She actually was the impetus for
17:29
Speaker 4: our putting together, you know, an inpatient program that specializes
17:34
Speaker 4: in working with adult survivors. But you know, I think
17:38
Speaker 4: we could have possibly saved her from some of the
17:42
Speaker 4: additional pain that she went through. Now I've talked to
17:46
Speaker 4: her about this and she says, oh, no, it was
17:48
Speaker 4: right on when we started, and I needed all of
17:51
Speaker 4: that attention. And I do believe that. But I also
17:54
Speaker 4: believed that if I were to do it a case
17:57
Speaker 4: like this again today, I would do it very differently,
18:00
Speaker 4: and I would pay much more attention to setting foundations
18:03
Speaker 4: and setting limits on what we were talking about and
18:06
Speaker 4: merely helping who has stabilize their current life before moving
18:09
Speaker 4: into working on the ancestuous issues.
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Speaker 2: And you know, I think you're you're right on the
18:17
Speaker 2: money when you said that this is uh uh, you know,
18:20
Speaker 2: an error or a situation that many therapists get into,
18:23
Speaker 2: and certainly many of the individuals have had on this
18:25
Speaker 2: podcast have said something you know, very very similar, if
18:30
Speaker 2: not identical, and it's always interesting to then draw the
18:36
Speaker 2: kind of distinction between you know, that kind of error
18:40
Speaker 2: and then the experience that's involved to be able to
18:44
Speaker 2: manage that same situation right, and to be able to
18:48
Speaker 2: manage and and to hold the boundaries, to be able
18:51
Speaker 2: to sequence, to be able to engage with the client,
18:56
Speaker 2: and and and let them know that there's there, there's
19:00
Speaker 2: a pace here, and that takes talk to us about
19:03
Speaker 2: what's involved, uh, what it takes to do that.
19:08
Speaker 3: You know, you said, if you were going to do
19:09
Speaker 3: it again, you do it much differently.
19:10
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, I talked to clients very directly now about
19:14
Speaker 4: the sequence treatment model and why it's so useful, and
19:19
Speaker 4: what we're wanting to do, and and actually why we
19:22
Speaker 4: want to lay a base foundation, especially uh of the
19:28
Speaker 4: ability to handle their emotions and emotional regulation and not
19:33
Speaker 4: having you know, a variety of crises or current stresses
19:38
Speaker 4: going on at the same time as they're doing work
19:40
Speaker 4: that's going to be daunting. I talked to them about
19:44
Speaker 4: very deliberately wanting to maintain their functioning, and so we
19:48
Speaker 4: do it in a you know, approach avoid kind of way.
19:52
Speaker 4: Also make clear that I think that PTSD is now
19:57
Speaker 4: identified as a condition of that involved considerable avoidance, and
20:02
Speaker 4: that we are going to work against the avoidance, and
20:05
Speaker 4: that's part of what we're doing, but we're going to
20:08
Speaker 4: do it in a modulated approach avoid kind of way,
20:12
Speaker 4: and we're going to try to work it to their
20:14
Speaker 4: tolerance and work on building their tolerance skills and their
20:18
Speaker 4: ability to stay self regulated as they handle the material
20:23
Speaker 4: that comes up. So all of those things are discussed
20:26
Speaker 4: ahead of time. I also personally have limits and a
20:32
Speaker 4: lot more boundaries and limitations, and I'm also very happy
20:38
Speaker 4: to say, and you know, I found that this works
20:40
Speaker 4: because in my own private practice. I may have to
20:44
Speaker 4: hospitalize something someone maybe every five years, and that is
20:48
Speaker 4: very reluctantly. I don't want to hospitalize and I want
20:52
Speaker 4: people to be able to do this work on an
20:54
Speaker 4: outpatient basis and have been successful in being able to
21:00
Speaker 4: follow this model and keep people from being hospitalized.
21:05
Speaker 2: Okay, awesome, thanks for the explanation there. So now we
21:09
Speaker 2: get to one of my favorite questions. You know, we
21:11
Speaker 2: talked about some of the challenges of the specialization. We
21:15
Speaker 2: talked about what kind of inspired you to get into
21:18
Speaker 2: the field in the first place. You know, I also
21:20
Speaker 2: believe it's really important that we know why we're doing
21:23
Speaker 2: something because the answer to that, in a sense, you know, guides.
21:27
Speaker 3: Us along.
21:29
Speaker 2: In our work and what we do. And then this
21:31
Speaker 2: is a little different than the question that what led
21:34
Speaker 2: you into the field? But share with us, Chris, why
21:37
Speaker 2: you're doing this on a day to day basis. What's
21:41
Speaker 2: your why?
21:43
Speaker 4: Well, it's very related to why I've been in the field,
21:45
Speaker 4: but it is it's on a number of different levels
21:50
Speaker 4: with directly with the individuals of our work. With the
21:53
Speaker 4: why is because I think we're making a difference and
21:57
Speaker 4: we're giving an opportunity for are healing where there might
22:01
Speaker 4: not have been one. But as you know, guy, I'm
22:05
Speaker 4: very active at a professional level nationally and internationally with
22:09
Speaker 4: trauma societies, and you know that takes up my time
22:13
Speaker 4: as much as anything. And my reason for that is
22:16
Speaker 4: because I firmly believe that we many of us who
22:21
Speaker 4: are you're calling us the pioneers or senior folks, but
22:27
Speaker 4: you know, many of us who get in this field
22:29
Speaker 4: for a long time, we made the mistakes. And I
22:33
Speaker 4: really feel like new therapists don't have to make the
22:37
Speaker 4: same mistakes that we did and that we have. This
22:40
Speaker 4: is another ethical imperative that those of us who have
22:44
Speaker 4: gone through this have a responsibility to teach up and
22:47
Speaker 4: coming clinicians not to make the same mistakes, including helping
22:52
Speaker 4: novice therapists not you know, flail around in the deep
22:56
Speaker 4: water until they've learned how to how to And it's
23:01
Speaker 4: a metaphor I use with my supervisors all the time.
23:05
Speaker 4: So I've been involved in calling for the inclusion of
23:10
Speaker 4: trauma in professional training across the board, across all professions
23:16
Speaker 4: and at different levels, starting at even the high school
23:20
Speaker 4: an undergraduate level, as well as in professional training. And
23:24
Speaker 4: I've been active in working with the development of competencies,
23:28
Speaker 4: what competencies, what knowledge and skills bases are needed in
23:33
Speaker 4: order to do this work. And the way it works now, unfortunately,
23:37
Speaker 4: is there are so many trauma survivors, as you were
23:40
Speaker 4: suggesting with your own population, there are so many trauma
23:43
Speaker 4: survivors who are even clinical populations that you know, by default,
23:50
Speaker 4: trainees and novices are going to be dealing with them.
23:53
Speaker 4: They're going to be treating them, and it's sometimes the
23:55
Speaker 4: case that they get the most difficult cases and they
23:59
Speaker 4: don't know because they haven't had a new training, and
24:02
Speaker 4: it comes up, it becomes you know, in the trench training,
24:06
Speaker 4: which is really a bad way to train. So I
24:10
Speaker 4: really you know, my passion is to really move the
24:13
Speaker 4: field along in terms of incorporating what we know into psychology, psychiatry,
24:19
Speaker 4: all mental health and medical professions so that there's a
24:24
Speaker 4: lot more understanding and a lot more you know, professionalized
24:32
Speaker 4: and competent training of the treatment of our clients.
24:37
Speaker 2: Well, I really love what you're saying here because obviously,
24:40
Speaker 2: you know, you're you're touching upon your work in a
24:44
Speaker 2: kind of micro and macro way. You know, in the
24:45
Speaker 2: national and national and international level. You know, you have
24:48
Speaker 2: your private practice, and yet you're uh you know, very
24:52
Speaker 2: involved in with the national societies and helping to integrate
24:57
Speaker 2: and implement uh you know, trauma and form formed programs,
25:01
Speaker 2: which is which is really inspiring to me. And this
25:04
Speaker 2: is kind of a perfect segue into the next question,
25:07
Speaker 2: which is, you know, advice for early uh.
25:11
Speaker 3: Stage trauma therapists.
25:12
Speaker 2: You know, many many listeners here are seasoned therapists, yet
25:17
Speaker 2: they don't have that trauma experience. Many uh you know
25:21
Speaker 2: listeners are just beginning their you know, for what foray
25:26
Speaker 2: into the field of therapy and are eager to learn
25:29
Speaker 2: more about trauma informed practices. What advice, Chris, would you
25:34
Speaker 2: have for individuals such as those.
25:38
Speaker 4: Well, I would have a couple of things. If they
25:40
Speaker 4: don't get training in their in their professional curriculum, I
25:46
Speaker 4: think it's absolutely essentially get training elsewhere. And the good
25:49
Speaker 4: news about that is they are beginning to be training
25:52
Speaker 4: programs that are online or that are accessible in different locations,
25:57
Speaker 4: that are organized and that lead to certifications. So that
26:01
Speaker 4: can be done through the professional societies or organizations like
26:06
Speaker 4: the Trauma Center in Baltimom in Boston and the University
26:11
Speaker 4: of Maryland in Baltimore. There are very organized sequences of
26:16
Speaker 4: courses on topics related to trauma. Also, I think that
26:21
Speaker 4: beginning clinicians need to be very curious, do a lot
26:25
Speaker 4: of reading, get yourself a mentor, or get yourself a
26:29
Speaker 4: support group or a consultant, because you know, what we
26:34
Speaker 4: teach clients is doing their work and connecting with other people,
26:39
Speaker 4: and I think that it's imperative that we do that
26:42
Speaker 4: as well for ourselves. And a specific recommendation I would
26:47
Speaker 4: make is do not do this work so low. It's
26:50
Speaker 4: really important that you have people to hold you as
26:53
Speaker 4: you're doing the work because the material that comes up
26:57
Speaker 4: is often shocked, shocking. Some of the interactional styles of
27:02
Speaker 4: traumatized people can be very upsetting and you know, can
27:07
Speaker 4: push you beyond your limits and interfere with your ability
27:12
Speaker 4: to you know, have the judgment perhaps and you know,
27:18
Speaker 4: get involved in dual roles and you know, just there
27:22
Speaker 4: are a lot of challenges. So the more and James
27:25
Speaker 4: Chu who's a psychiatrist who's been a mentor of mine,
27:29
Speaker 4: you know, Jim has said it's not that you're not
27:31
Speaker 4: going to make mistakes, but knowing about the mistakes ahead
27:34
Speaker 4: of time, are going to help you to get out
27:36
Speaker 4: of them a lot faster and realize what's going on.
27:41
Speaker 4: So you know, at the educational piece, the knowledge piece,
27:44
Speaker 4: getting support, all of those are really important.
27:47
Speaker 2: Okay, and all of this is going to be available
27:51
Speaker 2: on the show notes page at West Coast Trauma Project
27:54
Speaker 2: dot com. Hit on the podcast tab and scroll down
27:57
Speaker 2: to Chris's podcast. So great advice. I think you covered
28:02
Speaker 2: probably every possible conceivable piece of advice there. That's great.
28:07
Speaker 2: Appreciate that. So let's get into some go to books.
28:10
Speaker 2: I mean, you just published two books, so talk to
28:15
Speaker 2: us about those.
28:16
Speaker 4: Well, I just published two books last week. It was
28:18
Speaker 4: a red letter week. I've just written a small paperback
28:23
Speaker 4: that may be of interest to clinicians and consumers. It's
28:26
Speaker 4: called It's Not You, It's What Happened to You, and
28:31
Speaker 4: it is available on Amazon. It's just one hundred pages
28:35
Speaker 4: and it's designed to really be oriented towards helping people
28:40
Speaker 4: to understand complex trauma and what treatments are available and
28:44
Speaker 4: how to access treatment. So that's the first one. The
28:48
Speaker 4: second one is spiritually oriented Psychotherapy for trauma, and it's
28:53
Speaker 4: primarily for clinicians, and it's written to really address and
28:57
Speaker 4: begin to articulate that trauma is extremely discarrating and it's
29:03
Speaker 4: something that impacts an individual spirituality or religiosity very often,
29:08
Speaker 4: but it may hit them at the core of their
29:11
Speaker 4: identity and how they make meaning in the world, and
29:14
Speaker 4: especially when we're talking about complex trauma, which often involves
29:18
Speaker 4: betrayal by other people or significant or repercussions in terms
29:24
Speaker 4: of trusting other people and also trusting God. So we
29:29
Speaker 4: have addressed that from a variety of different perspectives. The
29:34
Speaker 4: book doesn't have a focus on Eastern religion practices unfortunately.
29:41
Speaker 4: Maybe that's the next book to come, but I think
29:44
Speaker 4: we're it's a good first first take at spiritual issues
29:50
Speaker 4: and how therapists can address them when they're related to trauma.
29:54
Speaker 2: Okay, so two books It's Not You, the first of
29:57
Speaker 2: which It's not You, It's What Happened to You? And
29:59
Speaker 2: the second Spiritually Learned Psychotherapy for Trauma Awesome. Again, those
30:04
Speaker 2: will be linked up in the show notes page.
30:06
Speaker 3: Chris, what.
30:08
Speaker 2: Maybe can you name two other kind of go to
30:10
Speaker 2: books that not necessarily don't have to be trauma related,
30:14
Speaker 2: but ones that have inspired you on your journey.
30:17
Speaker 4: Yes, they are trauma related. The book Trauma and Recovery
30:22
Speaker 4: by Judy Hermon, which is originally published in nineteen ninety two.
30:27
Speaker 4: I call it the instant classic in the field. And
30:33
Speaker 4: Besil van der Koch's Psychological Trauma. Those were foundational books
30:40
Speaker 4: for me.
30:41
Speaker 2: Okay, so Trauma and Recovery by Judi Herman and Bisill
30:44
Speaker 2: Vandercock's Psychological Trauma. Awesome, Chris, you have been just so inspiring.
30:51
Speaker 2: I'm glad we finally hooked up here. I just really
30:56
Speaker 2: appreciate everything you're doing. And you know, from starting out
31:01
Speaker 2: doing this, it's it's really an inspiration to hear someone
31:04
Speaker 2: who's had so much experience.
31:06
Speaker 3: And yet you're still doing it. You know, you're still
31:11
Speaker 3: reaching out.
31:12
Speaker 2: I mean you're in private practice now, I'm serious, You're
31:14
Speaker 2: in private practice, and you're you're you know, on the
31:17
Speaker 2: national and international stage too.
31:20
Speaker 3: I let do what you're doing.
31:22
Speaker 2: I just think you're doing such a great service for
31:25
Speaker 2: all of us.
31:25
Speaker 3: So I just want to thank you so much.
31:27
Speaker 4: Well, thank you. I really appreciate that.
31:30
Speaker 2: And again thanks for taking the time to do this.
31:33
Speaker 2: And we will talk soon.
31:34
Speaker 5: Okay, Bye bye, good care, bye bye.
32:01
Speaker 2: Home. S