Latest / The Rosanne Callens Podcast / E12: AI Can Write a Grant in Minutes … But Winning Still Takes Strategy
Transcript
- Rosanne Callens: ⁓ Hi friends, Callens here. ⁓ AI can a grant in minutes, but why are experienced grant writers still essential? Today's guests are women I deeply respect, Mary Ellen Foley and Andrea Jones Together they bring more than 45 years of combined experience helping schools, nonprofits, and organizations secure funding and design programs that truly make an impact. Grant writing isn't just about putting words on paper. It's about strategy, it's about alignment, and it's about understanding what funders are looking for. brings more than four decades of experience in education, strategic planning, and funding development. She's worked with schools, with nonprofits and agencies to align mission program design and funding strategies to create sustainable impact. Andrea brings deep experience in policy, community engagement and government relations alongside all of her grant writing as well. She has worked with organizations and communities to identify needs, build partnerships and strengthen programs that really truly serve people. So today we're talking about what most people get wrong about grant writing, the strategy behind successful proposals, how AI is changing the landscape, and why discernment and experience still matter. Mary Ellen and Andrea, welcome to the podcast. MaryEllen Foley: ⁓ thank you for that wonderful introduction, Rosanne. We're really happy to be here. Rosanne Callens: before we get talking about AI, which I know we all love to talk about, and that's the hot been the hot topic and in our business. Right. Tell me about a grant that you were genuinely proud of. MaryEllen Foley: Sure. Well, actually, I'm genuinely proud of all of our grants that have been awarded. However, one really truly stands out for me. it's a federal physical education and it was secured by a small nonprofit organization in partnership with a high need school district. What made it really, really meaningful for us in the process of developing this grant ⁓ was the passion. and the commitment of the executive director and the team from this nonprofit. They brought so much energy to the program. They had research-based physical education, and it was supported by data. They had lots of data that ⁓ need. They had a real good evidence-based program that the executive director had actually piloted in another school district. and activities that address the need. But most of all, it had a clear, clear plan for implementation and a plan for sustainability. When the grant was awarded, we were absolutely ecstatic. So here was a small nonprofit that was awarded a $2 million grant to make a difference. And believe me, it was a successful grant. And it was sustainable beyond the grant. funded period. Rosanne Callens: that's awesome. I love that when a small organization gets a big grant like that to do some amazing change and to be sustainable with it. So thank you. That's one. MaryEllen Foley: Well, they actually it's also nice when they put in the work that's necessary to make it happen Rosanne Callens: Yes. Absolutely. Andrea, what about you? What grant stands out in your mind? Andrea Jones: It's almost hard to pick one. We've been in business now 16 years, Mary Ellen and I. She has ⁓ experienced ⁓ that with grant writing. I came from government before that. I guess for me, ⁓ the one that, ⁓ I they all left an imprint, but ⁓ the to the Top grant that we got for a small district in the Central Valley, competing against other districts all across the nation. was the first time districts had ever been able to apply for it. it was district changing. It did change the district. They were in the process of making changes. They had already made the commitment, their leadership had made the commitment to make the change without the grant. But the grant, like all... good grants accelerated that change for them and it has been sustainable. I think that was really inspiring to see the work that they put in. ⁓ Once back to the data, they were collecting the data, they knew what their students needed, they knew what their community needed. Rosanne Callens: Well, I know that you guys have an excellent track record and you know, people think that grant writing is just simply about being a good writer. And I wanna say, is that true? And what actually drives success? MaryEllen Foley: Grant success is not driven just by writing skills alone. Strong proposals are actually built upon credible data, really thoughtful program design, and a clear plan for implementation and evaluation. And when I talk about a thoughtful program design, that means something that's achievable, something that fits within your mission and vision. They show how activities lead to measurable outcomes and how those outcomes create meaningful impact. So writing just becomes a vehicle for communicating these well-conceived plans, not just the driver of success. Rosanne Callens: what's the biggest structural mistake that you see, Andrea, with grant writing? Andrea Jones: The or the nonprofit client been collecting the to ⁓ if they really need or what type of funding they need. They just, see a grant and it says that they're going to award a million dollars at the minimum to anyone who gets this grant. And so we should go for that. And you know, it's not a scratcher ticket. It comes with strings. grant is a compliance document. I mean, the RFA is the of ⁓ And that's one reason why you can't necessarily do it with an AI, ⁓ there's a lot of instructions in there. And there's a lot of nuance those instructions. And ⁓ even before... ⁓ you ever get the idea to write or ever knew that that RFA was going to come out, you need to be thinking about the data. You need to be thinking about capturing. We want to do better for our pre-kindergarten kids. Capture that data. We're having to turn these kids away. Or this school could have more. Or we're only doing it at these two elementary sites. We want to do it at all 12 elementary sites. you've got to capture that data so that when the RFA comes out, you're ready with it to apply for the opportunity. So I think that's one of the biggest mistakes that I see, but I'm kind of data-oriented. Rosanne Callens: what I hear both of you saying is ⁓ writing is essential, but also looking all of compliance parts of the grant. And even then, ⁓ whenever your district or your organization, I say district talking school districts, but your organization feels like, hey, we could really use some grant funding for ⁓ whatever it is. Andrea was saying, make sure you start gathering the data that shows that you need that. And we'll get to that even further on. ⁓ Mary Ellen, have you ever stepped into a grant writing proposal that needed major restructuring? And what was wrong with it? MaryEllen Foley: ⁓ my gosh, It's important that when you have your proposal that you create a strong rationale, ⁓ kind of a linear progression as you would say, needs and gaps. again, to piggyback upon what Andrea said, needs and gaps that's supported by data. And then come with real solutions. Andrea Jones: You MaryEllen Foley: that fills that gap. And then what are your outcomes and what's the, what's going to be the benefit, what's going to be the impact. We often find that the client has all the information, but it's all over the place and it's not connected. And it's mentioned here and it's mentioned there and it's never connected to it's the vision and mission of their organization. So the big takeaway from all of this when you know we try to put it all in a linear progression. You must never assume that funders will infer connections if you don't make them they won't make them for you. Rosanne Callens: what is an RFA, Andrea? And have ever told a client we shouldn't apply for this? Andrea Jones: it's shorthand for request for application yes, I have had to make that difficult ⁓ call than even with that small district that I talking about were very interested in a particular type of ⁓ and an RFA came out for that type of funding. And we got on a Zoom call and we were going through it and I had to tell them there were some requirements in that compliance document that did not match with their mission and vision. And that I thought they should really probably take it to their cabinet in their ⁓ district office ⁓ to discuss whether this was a good or not. because things had changed, because the requirements had changed. And they got back to me and said, we won't be going for this. We appreciate your partnership and your understanding what our mission and vision and what our goals are for our district. ⁓ Ellen I from the beginning ⁓ ⁓ said to districts and to nonprofits, not for one quick sale. ⁓ We're looking to partner with you. we need because the more we know about your organization then the quicker we'll be able to turn around a quick grant proposal or a quick letter of inquiry or because these things more and more have a very short return time. Rosanne Callens: So seeing that ahead of time and telling people is really a time saver, but I know not always easy. Andrea Jones: It's not easy, especially when people, money is so tight, and this one was a million dollars a year, you have to look at your mission and your vision is, and are you chasing this money just to chase it, just to fill what you think is a budget hole? It may become more of a problem than a solution. Rosanne Callens: Mary you've talked about grant ⁓ as a system. Walk us through that, Mary Ellen. MaryEllen Foley: Well, the 6R's framework gives a structure for building a grant proposal. There's research which identifies opportunities. Relevance establishes alignment. Readiness ensures proactive preparation. Rationale builds credibility. Results demonstrate impact. And relationships sustain funding success. So what does all that mean, basically? Research. Let's start with the first R. Research ensures that effort is invested in opportunities that match the organizational goals and funder priorities. Grant writing without research leads to poor funder fit, wasted staff time, and a much lower success rate. So poor research can kill your proposal. Relevance, the second R. funders first evaluate alignment before they assess quality. If a funder can't clearly see how their project advances their specific mission and their priorities, even a well-written proposal will be declined. Readiness. Now this is one of our big things. What makes a grant organization grant ready or an organization truly grant ready? So success in securing grants. ⁓ really comes down to one critical factor, preparation. A grant-ready organization prepares their infrastructure before opportunity arrives. That means having up-to-date local and site-specific data, exactly as Andrea previously said. You've got to have the data. Complete your registrations because online portals need to have pre-registration. ⁓ also another factor is getting the backing of key leadership. you're ready to jump on a proposal. Rationale. Rationale is the next one. Why does logic matter more than adjectives? Well, rationale provides that evidence-based foundation for the proposal. ⁓ Funders, ⁓ be it federal or philanthropic funders, invest solutions ⁓ that are supported by clear definition Incredible evidence and logic reasoning. Results, what makes outcomes competitive? Well, results obviously, it seems to be a no brainer, but demonstrates the tangible impact of the proposed investment. What's the return on investment? Funders prioritize outcomes that demonstrate improvements supported by defined metrics and realized targets. Those smart goals make a difference. Relationships. Reviewers clearly defined collaborations with formal agreements and shared outcomes. They see that as indicators of organizational credibility, community trust, and implementation readiness. When proposals show some authentic engagement, it signals a higher likelihood of sustainable, measurable impact. So you got to get some of those community partnerships together. So all those work together to form the framework of a well-written proposal. Rosanne Callens: are absolutely the key key touch points ⁓ and a great system for success. So thank But ⁓ Andrea, I have a Out of your experience, which of the six Rs that Mary Ellen talked about do ⁓ you see organizations neglect Andrea Jones: I would have to say relationships. mean, most nonprofits and districts know that they can't survive on their own, that they're not doing it all in a bubble ⁓ themselves. they don't, number one, most of the time, they don't share with anyone else that they're interested in going for grants ⁓ because they this is going to be competitive, so we better not tell anybody else because we're going to do this on the secret. And that's exactly the opposite way to do it. It's just like going for a job. You need to tell everybody you're looking for one. So ⁓ they need to start at every community meeting they go to and everywhere else talking about how we're going to be looking at grants this year, our district or our nonprofit or our, is, this is the thing we're looking at doing and you know, really talking it up and talking to community members about how important it is and what the thing is and whatever it is so that When the RFA comes around, it's not this huge surprise a job search, people they have to do it in secret. And that's just the opposite. need to do it in a community planning environment where we bring people. And they don't have to create the community planning environment. I'm not saying it has to be another meeting that a district or a nonprofit creates for themselves. Piggyback off of all the community meetings you already go to. just be prepared with your elevator speech about what the project is that fits with your mission and vision that you're looking to. And it can be general. It can be big brushstrokes of what type of funding you're looking for so that when those type of proposals come out, you've got people in the community already ready to talk about how they're ready to support you. Rosanne Callens: I love how you said don't do it in secret, Let the people that you already with, know what you're doing. ⁓ so do you feel that that separates someone who's ready grant Andrea Jones: nonprofits are a little bit different districts in that sometimes they have the same mandate on keeping track of data. Districts when it comes to it they have a lot of data they may not know how to get at it they may not know who has it. they may not know where it's stored. But eventually, we're gonna get to the secret crystal skull and that we're gonna have the right weight to get the thing to go down so that we can get in and the boulder doesn't kill us. I mean, you know, the data is in there because districts have so many mandates from the feds, from the state, from the county level, and they're taking care of... Kids education. So of course they're keeping track of a lot of stuff nonprofits By our much smaller organizations don't have the same mandates if they haven't had a lot of grants Maybe haven't had a lot of strings attached to have to keep track of a lot of things So it's a different scope but so I think but for districts the biggest is they just haven't been keeping track of their relationships in the community. Nonprofits have been doing a better job of keeping track of that normally if they're a healthy nonprofit because that's the way they've stayed healthy is with that community support. Rosanne Callens: I when we're talking about trying to find the data underneath all of that, it kind of leads us to the elephant in the room. I'll ask you two questions in but ⁓ can AI write a grant? And what can AI do well when it comes to writing? MaryEllen Foley: Well, of course, an AI can write grants, but it can it. It also is is more of a support tool, a supporting tool. It can't replace what makes a grant competitive and that strategic alignment, organizational readiness, authentic voice and just downright quality control. AI is really strong in generating those first drafts quickly. And by gosh, summarizing research and funder guidelines, holy smokes. It does that within seconds. It helps create outlines and it can even help you rephrase and tighten your language a bit. In other words, it kind of speeds up the mechanics of writing and it definitely reduces blank page syndrome. Even can organize your thinking, Mechanics are not strategy. Your voice is important. Rosanne Callens: every organization does have a distinct voice. We all have our distinct voices. And Andrea, what do you think AI can, not do in relationship to grant writing? Andrea Jones: think ⁓ one thing it can't do is it doesn't know what it doesn't know. I know a little bit about policy and a little bit about ⁓ government. and things have changed a lot the and grants. And so people ask and sometimes even our clients ask about what's going on and what's going on with this bill or what's going on with that, the budget or the continuing resolution or this or that. I ⁓ did a last summer and put something in to see what it would come with. And ⁓ it ⁓ up a that had happened the California state legislature that it was gonna go into effect. and it gave me this date and it gave me all this information. And so I typed back, so it was an urgency measure. And it came and said, I can't find anywhere that where it says that. And said, if it goes into effect before January ⁓ 1st, it would have to be an urgency measure. And I know that it an urgency measure. So you've just told that it goes into effect at a completely made-up date. And that was about a piece of legislation. but that's a real-world example of something that was just clear, black and white, how it completely made up, and I could not talk it out of it. I what it doesn't know, it doesn't know. ⁓ And ⁓ so if not good at grant writing or if you're new to grant writing, if you're new to RFAs and you ⁓ and chat GPT are two working on it, you're both new to it. you might not know ⁓ it answers wrong. If you're putting it in chat GPT or if you're putting it in Claude and every other district is putting it in chat GPT or Claude or Gemini Then the agency is getting a grant application that basically sounds the same. Oh there may be three or four variations, but they all kind of sound like vanilla, nothing specific, and so you have to think about that. Your district or your nonprofit is very unique and you should, want that voice to come through. Rosanne Callens: you really have to have that nuance and that understanding of knowing what is expected and it needs to produce. what's the risk of over relying on it? ⁓ Andrea Jones: risk not knowing what you don't know. I think a lot of people put things in chat, GPT or Claude ⁓ for help with things that they know. If you're doing this for funding for a program very important to you and you don't really know the requirements for outcomes and you're just hoping that Claude understands that part. Even when I told it, you need, you have wrong information. Here's the right information. Oh, okay. No, that's not, you know what it's like? Oh, okay. MaryEllen Foley: Yes, exactly you knew that it was the wrong information. Andrea Jones: Right, if you don't know that it's the wrong information, you just go la-dee-da down the trail and you turn in an application that is obviously wrong to the reviewers. Rosanne Callens: the thing that I feel people don't do is they use it as the star ⁓ and not the supporting characters. So let AI come up with something for you if you just can't get started, but you had to be willing to look at each and every sentence. And I, feel like that's ⁓ the key that people miss or, look at it spits out and then go and talk to an expert and get that feedback So that, that's one thing about over relying on it. And also just a sheer overwhelm of, ⁓ know, you already have a good idea. You have the RFA And it says, well, would you like this idea? Well, what about this idea? And then you start getting stressed because you're thinking, wait a minute, maybe I should do this other idea. which is a great reason to have grant writing experts in your corner because your grant writing experts will say, hey, thanks for giving us all your excitement and let us get the guard rails back on and get you back on track and get you funded, right? ⁓ have you ever caught in guidelines that others missed? Andrea Jones: It's all in black and white, especially with government grants, and state grants. is supposed to have a level playing field. And that means that everybody gets the same rules it's this thick document. It's about half a ream of paper. And for a lot of people, they glaze over and go, ah, that's a lot. And I just dig in, both of us do, Mary Ellen and I both dig in and focus on ⁓ the details that are there. details are there. You ⁓ just to want to pay attention. it's easy gloss over and say, we basically have it. We have four half out of six. Rosanne Callens: Mary Ellen, ⁓ what's an where that's changed your framing, MaryEllen Foley: there was an arts grant that I thought we that was absolutely a shoe in. because I'm in art. been ⁓ the arts field for a long time, but I didn't get funded. So in reading through the reader's comments, I kept saying, well, you know, I said that. That's when, again, it came back that reviewers don't infer connections. If you're not direct, it's not clear. If say it's not there, you didn't make it clear. So that's always important. Rosanne Callens: that's a good lesson. And what's nice when you are able to read reviewers comments at ⁓ how they perceived and how they it and move forward from that and to keep building, Let's zoom out, okay? Andrea, I wanna start with you. From a leadership standpoint, what's the real question decision makers should ask Andrea Jones: it goes back to the mission and vision. I mean, I think that hopefully their district or nonprofit has a strong mission and vision and then we can talk about if the opportunity at hand fits with that. if to hire us, we can talk about how ⁓ our style and what Foley Jones does fits with their mission and vision and how that would work. But they to know what their organization is about. And it has to be about more than just teaching kids, ⁓ being good for our community. Those obvious. And if they're a nonprofit that, valiant work in their community, we have have a couple more layers the onion know that there's a fit with the organization. Rosanne Callens: Mary Ellen, is the question, can AI write this? MaryEllen Foley: Well, I think particularly now with the advent of AI, know, that that is a question that, you know, people ask. from a budget perspective, we talked about the leadership asks, you know, ⁓ does this our mission and vision? Is it going to promote our our outcomes? ⁓ But for a budget perspective, you know, they often look at, well, it's going to cost us more and I can write it. So let's do that. The real answer, think, is it's not really either or. The strongest approach is a grant writer plus AI. So you're efficiency with strategy. Andrea Jones: Well, and I think sometimes those shortcuts, ⁓ we'll give it to Susie because she's good with the community and she's, doing two and a jobs now but she's really good. She's, and she's always here early and we'll give it to her. she'll be good with that community. that we really don't have any information on and we'll give it to her and even though it's due in 30 days, she'll be able to do it because she's always here. they that's a shortcut and that's a money saver and they end up burning Susie ⁓ out they don't their best foot forward. So you've just gone to a competition. And just put your district out there and you didn't put your best foot forward. Rosanne Callens: That puts a lot of burden on someone who's already doing, two jobs, ⁓ And then to put the sustainability piece them of trying to keep it in play ⁓ and trying to get the letters of and all of that, MaryEllen Foley: the other is that, ⁓ often sit on lots of valuable stories ⁓ and impact evidence that they really don't know how to surface it clearly. a grant writer usually staff, translates the work into compelling outcomes, ⁓ connects ⁓ AI only work with what it's given. It can't uncover what hasn't been articulated. Rosanne Callens: stories help make it unforgettable. MaryEllen Foley: you to create those that makes truly yours that leads ⁓ the impact that this will bring to an organization. Rosanne Callens: I want to do a quick lightning round. Andrea, what's the first thing that you check in guidelines? Andrea Jones: ⁓ Eligibility. Rosanne Callens: Eligibility. All right. Mary Ellen says deadlines. OK, one of the things that I love to check are the key partnerships because ⁓ learned that was one the things that I just didn't understand when I was first grant writing. And I know you two would always tell me about it. And I wasn't understanding the importance. What's the biggest pet peeve in a draft, MaryEllen Foley: deadlines. Deadlights. Andrea Jones: For us, it's normally just getting it together and getting it out everything that we've collected into ⁓ finally it back. all this wonderful and ⁓ information that had to pull teeth to get, frankly. Rosanne Callens: Okay. Andrea Jones: taking of that and getting it finally back into something that is beautiful and tells a wonderful story and sometimes it takes time we think. Rosanne Callens: coffee or silence when writing. MaryEllen Foley: The louder the music, the more focused I am. ⁓ It has to be rock music. Sorry, classic rock. Rosanne Callens: Okay, that I knew it. Classic rock music from Mary Ellen and it is blasting we can attest. but we ⁓ do know Mary Ellen's playlist by heart. We do. We do know that. I love it. Andrea Jones: We do, we do, we do. And there's more than one playlist, but we know them all. Rosanne Callens: There is, One phrase you never want to see in a proposal again. MaryEllen Foley: I have one, I get tired of the program will ensure, which is so vague. Rosanne Callens: what's one thing that leaders think is fine, but just know that from your experience that it's gonna just undermine the entire proposal? Andrea Jones: Normally having too many people involved in the process, but I know that goes against my get the community involved, ⁓ that's But ⁓ once down to the RFA is out, you have 30 days and that means 30 days from when you take it to your ⁓ board trustees to when we turn it in to the funding agency. getting too many people involved ⁓ can be a problem. There needs to be a leader, somebody who makes the decisions, somebody can answer the questions, the weekends, the when things come up, ⁓ because we work days a week until it gets done. you need to have thought about ⁓ going grants before this. Rosanne Callens: which is all about being grant ready. Mary Ellen, last question. a world where technology is evolving, funding priorities are shifting, and people feel that AI can draft in seconds, ⁓ what remains completely in this work? MaryEllen Foley: Our goals, our values, our experience, organizational perspective still drives the work. AI cannot replace your voice. The vision, the nuance that we talked about, the authenticity behind a compelling proposal can only come from you. Rosanne Callens: ⁓ are human. ⁓ ⁓ would just like to say thank you so much. This was such a thoughtful conversation. And what I hope that listeners take away from today is that technology and AI can accelerate the process. It can organize information. AI can draft language. It can help people move faster. ⁓ really what we've said today is it can't replace discernment and it can't replace strategy. It can't replace the ability to read between the lines of a funding opportunity, align a proposal with your organization's mission, and really design a program that truly serves your community. And that, my friends, is where experience matters. Mary Ellen and Andrea have spent decades helping organizations do exactly that, bringing together strategy, leadership. alignment to secure millions and millions and millions of dollars that support real impact. So if you're a superintendent, a nonprofit leader or an organizational leader who's navigating that funding landscape right now, our takeaway is simple. Technology can assist the work, but strategy still wins. So if you'd like to learn more about Foley Jones, Callens and Associates, we'll include our information in the show notes. And thanks for listening friends and thank you for supporting women who are doing. powerful work in the world. I'll see you next time. Bye, bye.