Latest / Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield / JK & Matfield Clash Over ABs, Springboks Form, Headbutt Red Card & Lions Test!

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JK & Matfield Clash Over ABs, Springboks Form, Headbutt Red Card & Lions Test! · Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield

• 0:00
  You're right, David. We're moving in a month's time so I'm also starting to get all the books.
• 0:04
  If you're going to showcase the library behind you, Victor, you have to have lots of philosophy
• 0:08
  and thoughtful scholars. In our time as well, there wasn't a series and laptops and so we
• 0:16
  erected a lot of books while on tour. Yeah, but you had stayed, you lasted longer at world
• 0:22
  cops. I didn't last long enough to get through too many books. I used to read pre-game just to
• 0:27
  take my mind off the game. From the moment I got up just to distract myself to try and get
• 0:34
  to the games. I was a CM. My wife couldn't talk to me because I was so strange on the game day
• 0:40
  and then the warm-up, I used to hear the warm-up. I remember Santa was afraid I'd do this.
• 0:45
  Why'd I do this to myself? I hear this. It's a star plan rugby here. I was the same as you.
• 0:51
  Although when we first started playing, we weren't allowed to warm up on the field.
• 0:55
  So we stepped on the warm-up. In the change-through.
• 0:58
  In the return of that, I'll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 in the change-through of my
• 1:04
  I also hated warm-ups. So warm-ups, I was always, you always got like 10 minutes where there's
• 1:09
  individual stuff that the guys do. I just went and went and sit behind the poles and just watch
• 1:15
  everyone going, I hated warm-ups. I just needed like five minutes, almost like you said, John,
• 1:19
  just 10 quick steps straight to Emmys, then I was ready to go.
• 1:23
  Right, I hope you warmed up for the show. Yeah, nice. So this is Rivals by The Titles.
• 1:35
  Let's get straight into it. The word today, innovation, russies,
• 1:39
  innovations. Start with you, Victor, what did you think? Yeah, he's always up to something.
• 1:44
  Actually, the two tries, we scored off the mini line-out in the midfield. I think that's
• 1:50
  something that's been done before, not the line-out, but setting up malls from, let's say,
• 1:58
  a CP or a breakdown. In the past, the guy was just standing on the floor, not jumping,
• 2:05
  and this time they jumped. But yeah, it worked for us. I remember us, the bull scoring,
• 2:12
  mall tries from scrums against the Brumbies. I think we scored three tries in one game where
• 2:17
  we set up the mall from a scrum and we won us almost 40 meters. So I think that's something
• 2:22
  that's been there, that people have done, I think they've just changed. And it's actually funny,
• 2:27
  my daughter is playing netball, and in the pro-netball league the other day,
• 2:32
  they used a line-out in netball to get to that, you know, get one, two pointer, that's just on
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  the edge, to get a two pointer, and russies daughter was there as well. So I wonder if the netball
• 2:45
  was very sore. So yeah, that's great. But I think to be honest, we need to have a look at the
• 2:54
  law because there's a lot of time when people, when they get a pass, they jump in the air,
• 2:59
  they get tackled and they say, penalty not allowed. So I think they need to have a look at that.
• 3:03
  Can you jump into the ball when you're in normal attack? So yeah, interesting, and you'll always
• 3:10
  come up with something. Yeah, I had a laugh because when I was coaching Italy, we did that kick
• 3:18
  off against Ireland, I think it was in 2003, something like that, because we felt we had a bit of
• 3:25
  scrum, so we did this little kick and then we started with a scrum against Ireland. And we got
• 3:30
  penalised, like, South Africa did straight away, but I love the innovation. I just think, like,
• 3:36
  what you mentioned, Victor, about we need to understand when we're flaunting with the laws,
• 3:42
  rather than being innovative. I think what's in the best interest of the game. I love russies
• 3:49
  innovation. I think they're great. I mean, we spoke about this around players and the whole
• 3:55
  physical player changing. So if we introduce some of this stuff, is it going to fundamentally change
• 4:05
  what we all stand for for the game. But yeah, I keep it going. And then the interesting thing for
• 4:10
  me more over the weekend was, I don't know whether you thought it was a good performance, Victor,
• 4:17
  but I thought it was probably the worst and must for a straighting performance. I've seen from
• 4:21
  South Africa for a long time. So when you play Italy, sometimes they can be incredibly frustrating.
• 4:28
  I know they'll go away and say, well, we scored six or seven tries, whatever it is, but I just
• 4:33
  didn't feel that they got into their rhythm as a game. And I don't know. Before the game,
• 4:38
  I thought South Africa and France are the two sides that have real big depth. But I've
• 4:43
  found a few of the guys that played on the weekend. I don't know if they're up to the level of some
• 4:47
  of the older guys. So I think it was a really revealing, if you're in opposition, if you're an all
• 4:53
  black, if you're French and you're looking at South Africa, current world champions, we're always
• 4:57
  trying to look for some fault or some sort of angle to win. So I didn't think it was a great
• 5:05
  performance from South Africa as a whole. Which players do you think didn't stand up?
• 5:11
  I didn't think your whole front five stood up. And I don't know whether that was a tactical change
• 5:18
  early in the piece with your prop, who might have been struggling against the Italians.
• 5:23
  I just felt your leadership too wasn't really, you know, you got frustrated. Didn't help
• 5:29
  that you got a red car. But it didn't seem like the stuck to the plan of breaking down Italy and
• 5:35
  then running them off their feet and then just really letting them explode. I felt that they left
• 5:39
  them in the side of we bit. So I didn't think your front five was as dominant. And it seemed like
• 5:44
  they were trying to just bully the opposition rather than outplay them. That's the sensation I got,
• 5:49
  you know. I must say I thought it was a much better performance than last week. I mean, going up,
• 5:56
  playing good track, then you get a red car and hopefully you can talk about that red car again.
• 6:02
  And I mean, then they go down to 13 men and still give them zero school 45 points. It's always
• 6:08
  difficult with one man down because now you lose a center, you go through the force, does he play
• 6:13
  as a forward, does he play as a center. So it's very difficult. So I thought they did what they
• 6:18
  needed to do. The physicality was there. The intent was there much better than last week. So I
• 6:24
  don't think it was that better performance. If you think we've played with 14 men for 60 minutes.
• 6:29
  Are they trying to be too physical? I don't think so. I think when you get to the big games,
• 6:33
  that's what's going to be important. Like I told you, we're not a New Zealand side. We're not
• 6:39
  an island side that in this easier games just go and score 100 points. That's something so
• 6:45
  don't because never good at. We like to grind in the game, like to play the pressure game. And I
• 6:52
  don't think even in this easier games, we don't want to go away from our style. I think and that's
• 6:58
  why the first kickoff happened because I don't think Russia were happy with the physicality last week
• 7:04
  and you wanted to start with that from the first second. What did you think, Andrew? Yeah, just
• 7:09
  with the innovation in particular, I love it. I love it. But I think there's an acknowledgement
• 7:15
  from Razi, you're the rest of the spring box coaches that any innovation, they don't always
• 7:20
  stumble across a moment of brilliance. So it's not always genius, but they try stuff. And I think
• 7:25
  one of the things with innovating, trying new things, you have to have an appetite for risk.
• 7:30
  And I think they've got that. And I think they're happy that occasionally they're going to get
• 7:33
  things wrong. Occasionally, they'll just create headlines rather than create a huge opportunity
• 7:39
  for them to be better. And I think that's great. I think most old fashioned rugby head approaches
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  is just a traditional conservative approach, continue to do what you've always done. And I think
• 7:52
  they're pushing the boundaries. And I like that. And then the other thing is, in fact, you kind of
• 7:56
  touched on the laws. You can't jump into a tackle, but you can't jump to take a pass that then ends
• 8:03
  up being jumping into a tackle. That's stupid. That is a stupid part of our game. Right. And we
• 8:11
  could probably come up with 10 different examples of stupid parts of our game. But I think we all
• 8:16
  need, even we're all rugby people. And we all need technology that the laws and you get in trouble
• 8:22
  for calling them rules. I'm going to call them rules because it seems more, no, I think when we
• 8:26
  call them laws, we take ourselves a bit too seriously. The rules, they're not the laws of physics.
• 8:31
  Let's get over ourselves. This is a game we made up. It's just a fun game we made up. And now we
• 8:36
  all take it very seriously. And Razzie's kind of booking fun at the game a little bit and trying
• 8:41
  to innovate if we're going to take his approach a little bit more seriously. So I like it.
• 8:45
  I think it's a really interesting point because I don't think South Africa risked takers.
• 8:51
  I think that the leading side in the world, the full of innovation, but I don't see them as risk
• 8:57
  takers. I think the only risk is that is almost like a personal one because they could look silly.
• 9:02
  They do stuff that's different. And everybody goes, why why are you doing something stupid here?
• 9:06
  Why don't you just continue to do a victor? As you say, get physical. That's your ID. That's
• 9:10
  that's what you're known for. Get physical, get direct. But occasionally they do stuff like this.
• 9:15
  Even when you think of Razzie, think of Razzie with the traffic lights. And no one's that
• 9:23
  appears attention seeking appears like something people are going to talk about that rather than
• 9:29
  the result of the game or the performance in the game. And he's happy to say, I don't care.
• 9:32
  I'm just going to try something different. If it communicates more clearly to the players,
• 9:36
  then we've stumbled across something that works. He just, he either doesn't care what people think
• 9:41
  or he wants them to overthink. And then he just goes fine. We'll talk about this afterwards and see
• 9:46
  where it goes. Or he's maybe just having fun with it. I don't know the personality, Razzie.
• 9:51
  I'm almost like with you there. We make people overthink. If you think last year we use
• 9:57
  Chessland Colby. Firstly in the scrum to put in the ball and the nine went to 10. And then we
• 10:04
  actually just scrum, still scrum for a penalty and we've got the penalty from the scrum. So it's just
• 10:09
  almost letting the loose forward things. What are they doing now? They're probably just looking
• 10:14
  up because all of a sudden Colby is there and that gives us the opportunity to go for the penalty
• 10:19
  try or penalty scrum. Line out as well. Go to the front ball with Colby throwing.
• 10:26
  A lot of time it's just something that makes the position think and hopefully they'll change
• 10:31
  something that Razzie is hoping for and then it works. But coming back to the kickoff. I just want
• 10:39
  someone break the laws or the rules. We want to call it. And you can see there was intent to
• 10:50
  break it. It shouldn't be more than a scrum. I think it's a great point Victor. My trouble is
• 10:58
  with our game. And I think, you mentioned it, is that we add laws but we never take them off.
• 11:06
  So, you know, Bowden Barrett, we've all been athletes, right? We are trained to react. So his
• 11:15
  reaction in the test match against France was putting his hand out. That was not intentional.
• 11:20
  That wasn't an elite athlete's reaction. So like we're adding these laws. People are flaunting
• 11:27
  them. I think it's fantastic. I agree that I think Razzie and what everybody do is amazing
• 11:32
  from an innovation point of view. But we've got to start taking the contradiction out of our game.
• 11:39
  Like you say, if you lift and you touch them in a mall, it's a penalty. So all those different
• 11:45
  types of rules, we need to start getting rid of some. I think we need to start being more innovative
• 11:51
  around points. Let's say Victor, if you get a yellow card and the referee comes to you as
• 11:59
  captain and says, look, this is a, this is a bland yellow card. Would you prefer the yellow card
• 12:05
  or three points, you know, and give you the course. Because at the end of the day, like you said,
• 12:12
  you know, so Africa will reduce the 13 men, you know. Now the headbutt, which spoke about this
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  in the past, I mean, he's just, he's been frustrated and Italy can do that to you.
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  But was it a head push? He just pushed against his head. There was nothing.
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  Nothing could have been addressed to start with. I thought about it.
• 12:30
  I should have been against it as well. Came in with a passionate, but it was good.
• 12:36
  I understand. Must it be a, do we want the whole crowd because of that, not to see a 15 on 15 game?
• 12:42
  I still don't understand that. Give the penalty, you're not allowed to do it. But why
• 12:46
  saying someone off? It was like a touch. I mean, both came in to put the aids together. They
• 12:52
  was. I don't know. Well, if you look at the contradiction, Victor, if you look at the all Black
• 12:56
  game, where where the two locks lifted by a Jordy Barrett and his knees came up above his, his,
• 13:05
  you know, his, his waist and then as the lock came down, he he'd better than by mistake.
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  And it was, and it was a yellow card. Now, if you did that in Europe, Trump, if you did that in
• 13:17
  Europe, you lifted anyone, like, it wasn't the law. If you hook under their knee, it's just about
• 13:22
  an automatic red card. And so it's this whole consistently consistency that we're talking about.
• 13:27
  I just agree with you, though, Victor. I think the action of headbutting someone is, you know, he's
• 13:34
  just, it's stupid for me. He's just being stupid. All the other ones, I go, yeah, I mean,
• 13:40
  Bowden Barrett's a reaction, but actually that, that again, he's stupid. He gives it away the
• 13:46
  penalty to a South African penalty. Now it gets there and around. So it was stupid, but there wasn't
• 13:51
  harm done at all. Nothing.
• 13:53
  Do you want to do that? You're okay with that one, though. If the intent is, no one can, no one
• 13:58
  can judge the intent. That's the problem. Or no one can, as you say, Victor, he's not really
• 14:03
  going to do any damage there. It's, he's touching and pushing. So, but at the same time,
• 14:08
  I think as soon as we leave space for the refs to decide, decide, is there a high level
• 14:14
  danger? For example, sure, that's one person will read it one way, another person will read it
• 14:18
  another way. I think there has to be a clear. So for me, it probably needs to be if there's contact,
• 14:24
  it needs to be penalized. Because if it's a gray area, then it just ends up just depends what
• 14:29
  the referee thinks. I agree. I agree. I'm not the same to the penalty or penalize it, but was that
• 14:35
  a red card? That's what I'm asking. We're going to get into like refs being sensible. I hate refs
• 14:40
  being sensible or making rugby decisions. I think that's, if it's clear in the law,
• 14:46
  then I think it's better to legislate that way rather than saying, come on, be sensible
• 14:52
  referees. But we do allow them, I mean, with a hate to hate to make a decision. Was it
• 14:58
  high force? Wasn't it high force? Was they, so why can't we let them make a decision on something
• 15:03
  like that? I don't think that have the courage. Yeah, I agree. I think they're all
• 15:07
  they want to hide behind an opportunity. You know, the other one, I thought of it as I heard,
• 15:11
  you guys talking about TMOs and referees previously. One of the other things that frustrates me is,
• 15:17
  I'm talking about speeding the game up. All of this, everything we're talking about, you know,
• 15:21
  experimenting with the laws and introducing new ways and simplifying the laws importantly, JK.
• 15:26
  We've seen this in MLB. We've seen this in NBA. We've seen this in Gillick football in Ireland.
• 15:31
  They changed the laws to increase the speed of the game, to improve the spectacle, make the
• 15:35
  product better and make more people attracted to the game. So that's what we need to do. But rugby,
• 15:39
  then, there's a snobbery and rugby where we like the complexity. Some rugby people like the
• 15:44
  complexity of the game because it creates a barrier to entry to people who rugby isn't for
• 15:49
  ultimately. And I think that's something we need to do away with and you touched on at JK.
• 15:53
  With them, we have to remove laws. We have to simplify laws. We have to make it easier for
• 15:58
  new people to get involved like with the follow rugby and be passionate about rugby like we are.
• 16:03
  The other one that I don't like is whenever referees take too long and have a chat with the
• 16:08
  touch judge and then have a chat with the TMO and then they go over to the player and they say,
• 16:12
  there has been three penalties in quick succession in the 22. You're not on a warning.
• 16:17
  What other part of the game are the rules? Is there a warning? You know, no one says to a player,
• 16:23
  just be careful. Remember if you knock the ball on, then I'm going to give a scrum against you.
• 16:27
  No, we all understand if you knock the ball on, you're going to concede a scrum. I think there should
• 16:32
  be something automated. If you give away three penalties in your 22 within five minutes, whatever it is,
• 16:37
  it's a yellow three point, whatever it is, but just speed this up. I think the less we get a
• 16:42
  referees chatting to each other and they use those opportunities to like it's a disclaimer. They all say,
• 16:48
  does anybody disagree and they're just waiting for people to back them up or support them and
• 16:52
  they're playing politics. None of them are brave enough to say, now let's go to the game. We all just
• 16:57
  want to see Robby being played. And it's not their fault, man. That's the system. You know,
• 17:01
  this is our new chairman from Australia, promised change. That's what he got reelected on. He promised
• 17:11
  change. So we have been changing the laws and speeding the game up and yet the official them
• 17:19
  is slowing it down. And don't get me wrong, this is not the rest fault. They're doing a job and they
• 17:25
  have bosses that are telling them how to do that job. But they are scared, right? They're scared to
• 17:32
  actually, this is the coaches now, the coaches are now scared to say stuff after the game because
• 17:38
  they don't want to, we don't want to have, you know, challenging the ref in our game and I agree
• 17:44
  with that from a moral and a value standard. But the trouble is that the coaches aren't coming off
• 17:49
  the game anymore and saying, that's a ridiculous law, get rid of it. So we need some of our guys,
• 17:53
  like Rusty, like Razer, you know, like Eddie Jones to just start standing up together. Maybe
• 17:58
  they get to get and say, look, these are the four laws that we want to get rid of and stand up and
• 18:03
  say it after every game until our chairman actually does what he's going to do and change the game.
• 18:08
  Can I change the discussion because we're basically doing last week's discussion this week as well.
• 18:13
  So you've given that South Africans C plus JK, what did you give the all blacks for their
• 18:18
  victory over France? Gave them a name, mate. Gave them a name.
• 18:26
  Still at B side you play the game. I didn't give South Africa a C class. I think it was
• 18:34
  interesting because I saw a different game to Victor. I didn't think they played as well as they
• 18:40
  did the week before. But anyway, so I thought the all blacks, I thought the all blacks were really good.
• 18:44
  I thought the style of play that they are trying to play, like Victor said, you know,
• 18:51
  that is South African style. I saw an all black style that I really enjoyed on the weekend.
• 18:56
  I think there was some real positive stuff coming out of it. I think they had a really solid
• 19:03
  performance against the side that they should have beaten, like Victor's right. So I thought,
• 19:08
  you know, I thought they were really good. I thought it was a good game rugby. I enjoyed it.
• 19:12
  I enjoyed the free-flowing style. I'm starting to see a style, you know, you can call it a razor
• 19:18
  style, if you like. Where we're getting back to a game that I think is going to help us
• 19:26
  get back to the top. Yeah, just back to South Africa. Again, I think there was a few youngsters
• 19:32
  that really stood up. I thought Grant Williams at 9 were just outstanding. It's nice to see Peter
• 19:40
  Steve the toy back as well. It's very involved in the game. And then I liked
• 19:45
  Cain and Moody. I said it for a long time. Look, JC Creel is our first number one 13, but some
• 19:51
  youngsters getting opportunity. Cain and Moody doing really well at 13. Even either Uker coming
• 19:58
  on on 13 is a young guy, 21 years old, getting a great opportunity. So that's what I liked about
• 20:04
  the South Africa. I also thought New Zealand were good. I thought they were pretty good in the first
• 20:09
  days as well. Unfortunately, those two tries weren't given, but I think New Zealand is playing
• 20:18
  good rugby. They still want two things that I think they'll be tested once they get against proper
• 20:25
  competition, but I've said it, I think New Zealand is on the up as well. And this is going to be
• 20:31
  tough here for South Africa if you want to beat them more than they beat us. So Victor, you think
• 20:37
  they haven't been tested in that physical exchange is what you're suggesting there. Scrum,
• 20:41
  direct confrontation, that type of approach, that to bring back approach. I think they've been
• 20:47
  tested like that. France will always test you physically. I think this younger team just makes too
• 20:53
  many errors. So they give the opportunity to the all blacks that some other teams that's more
• 20:58
  experienced, that's played the game a bit more tighter or is just accurate in what they're doing.
• 21:04
  Doesn't matter if they play like South Africa or like Ireland, they just don't give the all blacks
• 21:09
  the opportunities that they want to play off lose ball. And again, the all blacks still haven't found
• 21:16
  the way to play against the rush to fence. And once Ireland probably will come with a bit for
• 21:23
  our other line, and after Linsters done it, South Africa, I still want to see how they attack
• 21:29
  with this combination against a very hard line off the fence. It's kind of sneaking in, isn't it,
• 21:36
  to Irish rugby and through to Lions. It's like, it's Jacques is kind of influencing Linsters,
• 21:43
  who in turn is influencing Ireland and then influencing the Lions. But I thought every
• 21:49
  from an Irish rugby perspective the weekend was a complete waste of time. They played Portugal,
• 21:53
  they put 106 points in Portugal. Whenever you look at all of the other teams in the six nations,
• 21:59
  they're all stealing a march in Ireland at the minute. And I think Ireland granted their
• 22:03
  top tier guys to kind of, you know, 12, whatever guys on the Lions, getting plenty of experience,
• 22:09
  international experience there. There's absolutely no strength in depth being developed because
• 22:13
  they're playing Portugal. An amateur side effectively in front of 5,000 people, no atmosphere.
• 22:19
  They didn't even have a TMO at the game. That's how little attention was paid to Ireland in Portugal.
• 22:24
  George of the week before was slightly better, but not great. When you look at England,
• 22:28
  getting tested in Argentina, wheels finally getting a win. First win in five years.
• 22:37
  That's where they're at. They're getting meaningful rugby there. Scotland going down to Fiji.
• 22:42
  Yep. But Scotland are getting meaningful rugby. Italy obviously put Ireland,
• 22:50
  they're all stealing a march in Ireland in terms of the six nations contributors at this stage.
• 22:55
  Was that a rugby, was that an Irish choice to take some risk out sort of knowing that you're
• 22:59
  going to have 12 or 15 lines, please? I assume it is, but I don't know how early in the
• 23:05
  calendar, those tours are arranged. And I don't know how confident they were of having that many
• 23:11
  Irish alliance away, unavailable for that Irish tour. And I don't know how maybe, I don't know how
• 23:17
  difficult Ireland at the minute. It's not the Ireland brand, because obviously they're all
• 23:23
  the way. It's different personnel. So maybe it's difficult to arrange those fixtures or create
• 23:28
  as much attraction and bring them to a side whenever you know it's going to be a tier two team
• 23:34
  and not many as many recognizable names. So I don't know what the mechanism is or how they
• 23:39
  what the decision making is or how early the decision making is and what they know at that stage.
• 23:43
  But in hindsight, I think there'll be some good experience for a guy's, but the experience
• 23:49
  that the Irish players will get from will be from Lancer players working with monster coaches,
• 23:53
  or months or Lancer players working with Paul O'Connell. But that's that that's the only Irish
• 23:59
  coach in the setup. It's not an, it's not an international experience, but there'll be some
• 24:03
  development from spending time with other guys from other provinces thinking about the game
• 24:07
  differently. But the development they would have got would have been off the pitch on the pitch
• 24:10
  they would have gotten off the note of it. England is probably the team that took the
• 24:14
  biggest step for you. If you think that England squad there is being challenged by playing in
• 24:20
  Argentina, and also they were actually outstanding. I think England draft is looking really strong
• 24:26
  at the moment. It's got a lot of younger kids getting opportunity, but you've got Spence and
• 24:32
  Ford 910 controlling the game. And I actually enjoyed that game against Argentina. I thought England
• 24:37
  looked really good, and they've got quite a few guys who are the Lions team as well.
• 24:41
  And that's like going to Fiji too, Victor. It's hard to win over there. I agree with you.
• 24:46
  I think Borthwerke has brought in a style, and you talk about South African style and New Zealand
• 24:54
  style Irish style. I think when you think about the different styles, I think Ireland is probably
• 25:00
  dominating. I think it's really interesting this week, because I think the Northern Hemisphere
• 25:07
  is way stronger than the Southern Hemisphere at the moment. And I'm waiting for that lion series,
• 25:13
  like I know someone came out yesterday and said within the squad that we want to win 3-0,
• 25:18
  which is probably not what the coach has coaches wanted them to come out and say, but
• 25:23
  I just think that the depth of rugby, the depth of the competition in the Northern Hemisphere
• 25:29
  is producing way more players. I know Victor that's the second or third French side, but in that
• 25:35
  first test match, like you talk about some of your young guys getting an opportunity and standing
• 25:40
  up. I mean, they would have got five or six decent test players out of that side that's going to
• 25:46
  add to the 10 guys that are home or the 20 guys at home, whatever. So, you know, I think the depth
• 25:50
  of the Northern Hemisphere is so much better than the Southern Hemisphere. I think the
• 25:55
  competitions are better. So I don't know, you saw those, you saw that sort of Aussie New Zealand side
• 26:01
  get thrown together to play the lions. And normally when you throw the barbars together,
• 26:06
  with the quality of play that was out there, you get a decent game of football, but the lions
• 26:10
  were just dominant. Like, it wasn't even worth probably having that game, you know.
• 26:15
  I think it shows how important cohesion is now. I don't, I think I wonder, I'm concerned
• 26:19
  to suppose that there may be something like a preparation set up is a bit of a thing of a pass,
• 26:23
  because I mean, look at Argentina, China and the Lions, while the Lions had only been together a
• 26:30
  week or two, they had no cohesion, they had no kind of established partnerships and just on the
• 26:35
  pitch time to really kind of understand and develop that understanding. But yeah, I think that's
• 26:40
  a really important thing. I don't think, I think the days have thrown 15 talented guys together
• 26:45
  and just expecting them to perform. That's probably a thing in the past. We saw that the weekend
• 26:49
  with the Lions. Tell me what's going to happen on the Lions first test. I think the Lions, I think
• 26:55
  they're starting to, they're starting to kind of rev their engine a little bit. I think they're
• 26:59
  starting to, to look very good. One or two injuries, but there's plenty of strength and depth
• 27:04
  there. I think guys will, my content, see was, it's unavailable for first test. Ring rose is
• 27:10
  unavailable for first test. Yeah, one or two setbacks, but minor setbacks, I think Lions are looking,
• 27:17
  I think Lions are looking pretty dominant at this stage. No, you guys are thinking two one,
• 27:21
  I'm thinking at least two one. I don't think it's wise for someone, whoever it was, Jake,
• 27:25
  I think three no, I'm three no, I'm looking, I'm looking more towards three no than two,
• 27:32
  two one at this stage. Put a bottle of wine on that, let's.
• 27:36
  Doesn't count if it's in the last match. Should be one of the first or the second, John.
• 27:42
  You say, when one of them, I'll say bring you over a very nice bottle of trade.
• 27:46
  Yeah, no, that's fair, that's fair. Yeah, like for me, I was sitting yesterday and I was thinking
• 27:52
  about, I was watching that, that game. And, you know, and I've just mentioned it before,
• 27:58
  I'm worried about the depth of seven hemisphere rugby and the competitions that we play compared
• 28:04
  to possibly what the Northern Hemisphere is doing. And so I think it will be a real wake-up call
• 28:12
  if it's three no, a real wake-up call to how we're preparing and what super rugby has become
• 28:20
  without South Africa, dear, I say it, Victor, dear, I say it, we miss you, my brother, in the Southern
• 28:25
  Hemisphere. So I think it could be a real, if it's three no, it could be a real big statement
• 28:34
  for the Northern Hemisphere. I don't think a Southern Hemisphere, Northern Hemisphere so much
• 28:39
  better than the Southern Hemisphere. I just think these five teams that's pretty far ahead of
• 28:45
  the rest at the moment. And I think South Africa, the Old Blacks, Ireland, France and England,
• 28:52
  it's just on another level. The other guys can maybe compete here and there, but consistently,
• 28:58
  there's just no chance that any of the other teams can compete. I mean, if you look at the URC,
• 29:03
  it's just South African and the island teams, whilst not coming through, Italian teams are not making
• 29:09
  up bail. If you look at this super rugby at the moment, New Zealand teams playing each other
• 29:14
  in the finals. So, yeah, I think the other teams has just fallen behind at this stage.
• 29:20
  For me, it's not a competition thing, it's a depth thing, Victor. It's like a depth thing.
• 29:27
  I think there are, you know, when you look at that French side, and I'm probably talking about
• 29:33
  French rugby and Irish and English rugby. When you think that there are really competitive
• 29:41
  competitions, the URC, I think, is below the premiership. But I just think there's a depth
• 29:51
  in Northern Hemisphere rugby. I agree. I think a good super rugby side is going to compete against
• 29:56
  Lentster or whatever. But I just think there's depth after depth after depth. If that's the third
• 30:03
  best French side, that's pretty damn good, which means those 10 squads are all doing their job
• 30:08
  to develop players. My biggest concern is if it's three nil against Australia, what's their
• 30:14
  depth like? If they get a couple of injuries like, I know it's the Lions, but if they get a couple
• 30:18
  of injuries in Aussie, they don't have backup. I mean, when was the last dominant lock from Australia?
• 30:27
  Oscar. Skelton is not too bad. I don't know if he'll be ready for the weekend. I mean, he made a
• 30:33
  big difference in that Aussie back when he's playing for La Rouschelle as well. He's pretty outstanding.
• 30:38
  And before that, just probably Nathan Sharp. That was a really outstanding.
• 30:43
  So none of you are giving Australia any chance of winning this first test.
• 30:49
  Correct. That was a good statement, Ricardo. Well done. Yeah. Thanks for your contribution.
• 30:55
  It was actually a question. So if you can tell what the word can and the question mark at the end,
• 30:58
  that implies a question. I'm not going to sit on the fence. I think that the Lions will dominate.
• 31:03
  But do you think this Lions tour? Because unlike, say, previous tours where there's been tough games
• 31:09
  and close-preventual games and all that sort of stuff, do you think this Lions tour
• 31:13
  up until now before the test matches is lived up to the hype of a previous Lions tour, like in terms
• 31:18
  of excitement levels and stories and passion and heroes coming out of it? Heroes are made
• 31:24
  in the test matches. No one will give a toss about the WarriTars game. And the reason I'm talking
• 31:30
  about the different levels is that we had the best supersides playing against the Lions.
• 31:39
  The Lions just continued to get better. Did they really get threatened by that?
• 31:44
  So for me, heroes come out of test matches. Heroes come out of test matches.
• 31:48
  This Lions team will be successful. They will have heroes if they win the series.
• 31:55
  Full stop. No one will remember or care about the games before.
• 31:58
  After the stories where these Lions want to be the best Lions team ever, and if they get a
• 32:05
  three, no one, they might be seen as the best Lions team ever. But I think straighter will stand
• 32:10
  up. It will be a tougher test than we think. I think it will be closer as well. We saw lost
• 32:17
  here. How they stood up in the end of year tour. But unfortunately at the moment for this
• 32:23
  Lions tour, Australian rugby doesn't have the depth. I mean, the last one of the super rugby
• 32:29
  franchises still didn't get into a final super rugby. So I think we mustn't look at Southern
• 32:36
  MSF here. We must look at Australian rugby. We are Australia rugby at the moment.
• 32:41
  Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to add anything new. It feels like it's through your struggling.
• 32:46
  It feels like they're trying to put something together. I think Joe Schmidt is the right person
• 32:50
  to try and put something together to make the most of what they have. But I think just with the
• 32:55
  wrong ingredients, what they have, there's not enough talent there. There's nothing that I think
• 33:01
  the Lions would kind of really be concerned about. I don't think they'll approach the first test.
• 33:06
  Only differently than they've approached the other games. They'll just continue to do what they do
• 33:11
  because what they do is going to be too much, I think, for Australia. I think Australia will show up.
• 33:18
  I think they will, I think the first 50, 60 minutes, it's going to be competitive. But I do feel
• 33:23
  like the Lions will pull away. That's been the pattern we've seen. There's too much depth. You
• 33:28
  bring off impact off the bench and I think that's going to ultimately be too much for Australia.
• 33:33
  But it's just a reflection of where Australia wrote his art at the minute.
• 33:37
  So 20 years ago, Ireland was in exactly the same position. It probably Scotland as well.
• 33:45
  Ireland a little bit better. But Ireland were getting their butts kicked. What did Ireland do to go from?
• 33:52
  That's what Australia need to do, right? They were dominating the world,
• 33:57
  world cup time, 91, 95. So what did Ireland do to create such depth?
• 34:07
  Developed the pathways. The pathways are very clear. They're all generally grammar school.
• 34:12
  There's a huge push for, we have to bring rugby into non-traditional rugby areas in Ireland.
• 34:20
  People who have grown up playing Gileg football, playing hurling, playing soccer.
• 34:24
  Let's get into the clubs. Let's develop the clubs. I think it feels like
• 34:28
  David Nussaforra to a lesser extent. He obviously invested in the sevens. He saw that as a
• 34:32
  meaningful route pathway. David Humphreys doesn't see that. And he took money away from
• 34:38
  our cancelled the demands sevens program. And he seems to be double down on the school.
• 34:43
  Now, the models are different in Ulster, well, similar in Ulster, as they are in Lenser,
• 34:49
  but Connect and Monster are probably a little bit different. And there's a little bit more
• 34:52
  of a leaning on the traditional club game rather than the school game. But they're,
• 34:57
  now they've just identified additional funds to bring in director of rugby in those
• 35:04
  kind of leading schools in those two provinces, in the other three provinces as well. So
• 35:08
  it's the length, like the heart, Lenser is the heartbeat of Ireland rugby at the minute.
• 35:13
  The five schools in Lenser that alumni support, they pay for 3G pitches, they pay for
• 35:20
  directors of rugby, they pay in and they support financially that program, that school program.
• 35:26
  And then ultimately, then Lenser rugby end up with five sub academies, pre academies,
• 35:32
  they all come in absolutely. These guys are physically ready to play professional,
• 35:38
  if not international rugby, the age of 18, 19, then they go into the Lenser Academy and they
• 35:43
  kick on. And they're also the physical development, they're getting, then the technical development,
• 35:47
  they're getting, the coaches are good, everything is just quality the whole way through.
• 35:51
  That creates a pathway and a production line that Lenser end up getting it. And then
• 35:58
  Ulster, Monster and Connect get to spin off from that. And ultimately Irish rugby gets better and
• 36:03
  better. Who pays? So who pays? And who pays for that? Irish rugby or Lenser rugby?
• 36:07
  I think there's a combination of, it's quite complex. I believe the whole
• 36:13
  kind of funding mechanism is at Lenser, is at IRFU, but I think there's a lot of alumni from
• 36:17
  St Michael's, Black Rock, Klanko's, Loddy's kind of big posh schools in Dublin, where
• 36:23
  you know, there's a lot of wealth coming out of these schools and there's a lot of support
• 36:28
  for that school and for the rugby program. They say, here you go, far away. And on all of that,
• 36:34
  the risk get richer in this game, you know, like Lenser sold out Crook Park in an afternoon
• 36:40
  against Monster, whatever, a couple of million quid, just like that. And then also the savings of
• 36:45
  the alumni in some of these schools, creating the pathway and creating the talent and the
• 36:49
  wrong greetings for Lenser to kick on. So I and a lot of Irish rugby supporters outside of Lenser
• 36:57
  would be very critical of that. And they tried to balance things a little bit, get more support
• 37:00
  to the other provinces, but David Humphrey's, I think, is right in that he says, no, we do not,
• 37:07
  like it's, it's the job of him to improve the performance of the three other provinces,
• 37:11
  rather than pull away from Lenser, Lenser, Obia's Ireland's gold and goose at the minute.
• 37:16
  It's going to continue to lay golden eggs. So don't pull any funding away from that. Don't,
• 37:21
  don't mock that up. And I think that's important. Whereas I think they're Ulster,
• 37:26
  Monster and Connick supporters, they would happily pull funding away from that.
• 37:31
  Happily, D-Real, Irish rugby, just the D-Real, Lenser rugby. So there's,
• 37:36
  there's those politics that David Humphrey has to deal with.
• 37:38
  For us Kiwis, Victor, as that's Africa as well, as that, like you, I was listening to the
• 37:43
  ometry the other day and I broke about scholarships. So the African schoolboy RECP is huge.
• 37:50
  Like Andrew said, I mean, I think it was five years ago and there was a super RECP
• 37:54
  final, there was 25,000 people at the game and at the same time Paul,
• 38:00
  Jim and Paul boys, I played each other and there were 30,000 people at the game.
• 38:05
  All our top schools, if you take the top 10 schools in South Africa, maybe even more 12,
• 38:09
  15, the director of RECP is in place. They've got a whole S&C team in place to start working with
• 38:16
  those kids from a 14 years in up. And I think that's why South Africa is also doing so well now.
• 38:22
  And the other thing is, especially with a lot of our colored players that didn't have the
• 38:27
  opportunity to get into the system at the early age, they will go get scouted at some stage,
• 38:33
  get pulled into the top schools. They will be, they will be scholarships as well,
• 38:40
  but it's all funded by the schools. It's all funded by the old boys clubs and the people around
• 38:46
  it because people in South Africa love these schoolboy RECP. I mean, if you go to a game in
• 38:51
  Victoria, I'll just play every game of sold out. So all these big schools, if
• 38:58
  Graham Bloom, who's probably most of the time at Amalam school, all the games are sold out.
• 39:02
  So, and is there a RECP you don't have to pay for that? It's all funded within the school structure.
• 39:09
  Some of our old boys getting involved that love the game and give back to RECP. So, I think
• 39:16
  in South Africa, that's also our strength. When you say sold out, are you saying 30,000 people
• 39:21
  to a school game? Yes, the one in Paul is between 28 and 30,000. All the other schools can't take
• 39:29
  as many. They take probably 15 or 20, but these days where the bulls were playing the URC and
• 39:36
  office will play like a block away and there's more people at the office game than at the bulls game.
• 39:41
  So, people love the schoolboy RECP and also those directives of RECP, they probably get paid
• 39:47
  more than their assistant coach at one of the provincial or the club levels with the bulls or
• 39:51
  the Lions, whatever. They really get paid well and they, I mean, they love what they're doing.
• 39:57
  We've taken schoolboy RECP off television and you say, don't have any RECP.
• 40:01
  Yeah, I can understand the logic behind it. So, in South Africa, all games get showed on TV. We've got
• 40:06
  a super sports school zap. So, all the RECP, all the top netball from all the schools get shown
• 40:14
  every weekend and you can watch it. Anyway, in South Africa, or even if you're in Australia and
• 40:19
  New Zealand. You might have to watch that. Well, that's my viewing for the weekend. South African
• 40:23
  schoolboy's RECP. I've got to go now, guys, I've got to go to Palates. So, you're all big Palates,
• 40:28
  guys, I've imagined. I'm proud of you, Ricardo. You're actually going to Palates. You're doing the
• 40:33
  reformer or are you doing just the stretching? Just stretching with the reforming. You'd be useless
• 40:39
  at that. It's not really, you know, it's like not a competitive sport. Palates, it's just sort of
• 40:43
  like a physical, it's like training and stuff. There's no one competing with me. It's like ice
• 40:49
  golf. I still don't think it works. Look, this is what I did this morning. Little white bike,
• 40:55
  being John Kerwin's face on the boxing back and 10 minutes of punching that back. That's how I
• 41:00
  was. I can. Can you give us some more of those boxing bags, Victor, like one for me,
• 41:05
  with Trimby? That'd be good. I'll send you both one as well. I'm going into town to have a
• 41:11
  brioche in a coffee and I'll celebrate you guys. All right, that's the end of the rivals for
• 41:20
  this week. We'll catch you next week.