Latest / Green Ticker Tales / CBN post MPC meeting analysis ,Dangcem London listing, Tier 2 Nigerian banks,

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CBN post MPC meeting analysis ,Dangcem London listing, Tier 2 Nigerian banks, · Green Ticker Tales

• 0:02
  It's evening, but I'm sure you guys will probably get this sometime in the evening, Friday evening, so evening plus evening, we're fine. Good evening, welcome to this presentation of Business Times Weekly Nigeria. This is a weekly podcast called Business and Economy. And I have, as I like to say in my pidgin English...
• 0:27
  market videos. I have a big masquerade here. It's not often you get masquerade. I mean, everybody who's come on the podcast is a masquerade because they're all pretty great at what they do. But in hip-hop parlance, we'll probably call you an OG, an original gangster. Someone who's, as you say in hip-hop, who's familiar with the area, the elder of some sort.
• 0:57
  Shola Ogule, aka, I would mention the aka's, I'll keep the aka's for in-house. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Thank you for obliging me. You're probably the second person who had to appear at work, and I don't take it for granted. So, before I get in, I'd read your profile.
• 1:25
  I'm Shola Oguleye aka dot dot dot. I keep that. I'm an operator, investor, focus on Nigerian equities, and other research public market opportunities. Your investment approach combines fundamental analysis, technical analysis, forensic financial review. But the part that cost me, and I'm probably sure we'll discuss that, because I like to say as well about cash is king.
• 1:51
  Cash rules everything around me in the Federal Republic of Nigeria. Cash is king on the NGX. If you've ever been to an annual general meeting, I mean, people don't play with the dividends. And honestly, I do get it. So cash is king. And so things you favor, cash-generating business, I'll probably be sure would end with that. But Shola, thank you for obliging me. It's a...
• 2:20
  Wednesday evening, it's the middle of the week. I'm sure you're probably winding down. Everybody's looking forward to NVIDIA numbers. So thank you, thank you, thank you for obliging me. I don't know if, I mean, unfortunately, we don't have anybody on the NGX who, we have rockstar CEOs, rockstar founders, but none of them rocks the leather jacket like Jason Wang. Unfortunately, I hope someday somebody will. So thank you for joining me, Shola.
• 2:50
  Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. It's my first podcast, really. I don't turn up at this podcast because, you know, you can't control where they go. But thank you for having me. Yeah, I will certainly get it. I think on the good side of things, hopefully, I guess partly because this podcast isn't so popular yet, and I guess partly because I'm very...
• 3:18
  very much attention about it. I just try to stay away from controversy because it matters of the conversation. And also, I'm cognizant of the environment in which we are. 2025, 2026 has been a tough year for Nigerians. And so it's easy to point to the economics. But if the economics means that everybody on Twitter is somebody struggling to pay rent or
• 3:47
  a calculation I did a few weeks ago in a WhatsApp group. Someone was to go to the airport and we started to say, look, given a certain car model, how much is the minimum you need to fuel that car, take you to the airport and back. Four or five years ago, I mean, the last time I did a calculation like that was probably when I was 18, 20. I enjoyed riding my parents' cars because obviously their life was good.
• 4:14
  I mean, 3,000 Naira could buy me a quarter tank and nobody but an island. 3,000 Naira can't buy me anything worthwhile in a car. So, what's the sense of that? All right. So, let's get into it. We had Cardi B and the wise men and women. And so, the uninitiated central bank governors have their nicknames. SLS was Sanusi Lamido Sanusi.
• 4:45
  Some called him Sanusi II because the first Sanusi was Joseph Sanusi. We had Murphy, called him Murphy Lee. He had a couple of other names, but I won't mention those names, but I'd rather go with it. But Toso and you know the other nicknames he had. For the current CBN government, we have Hadi B, real name is Yemi Kadoso.
• 5:11
  How the Cardi B came about, I remember somebody tweeting about it. I probably need to fish out that tweet one day. I keep asking if anybody knows, let me know if you know about the nickname and if he's cool with it. But the CBN met today, Monetary Policy Committee, which it held. I would say that probably, which is the, will I call it irony about Nigeria?
• 5:41
  yeah the last few years i mean i guess maybe starting from um methi we have had yeah probably maybe i don't think i don't think um i don't think uh sls had lots of media coverage in fbc meetings i can't remember but i do remember that from fb down once it had lots of coverage so the media tends to cover the fbc meetings you get live coverage pre-market analysis post-market analysis um so today
• 6:11
  the committee left everything unchanged, interest rates unchanged, asymmetric corridors and all the whole enchilada. In some ways, that was kind of expected because really the CBN was caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. You have, and the fact that reminds me,
• 6:39
  I listened to the post-meeting conference, and the CBN governor, Kadibi Yemi Kadoso, mentioned, I would say, one of the dreaded words in economy's written history. He used the term transitory inflation. Now, I'm sure that the green tie and the green cap crew in Abuja
• 7:09
  have way more information that the rest of us looking on the outside but memory says be correct the last central bank governor that used the term transitory that was general power um it didn't end quite well for him and and maybe in my terms i i don't know when you use the term transitory inflation in nigeria i just find it hard to i mean part of it
• 7:40
  Parts of inflation, yes. But when you look at it, you've had, I mean, look at your petrol costs, they've probably gone up. Petrol costs are up, diesel costs are up. Yes, those costs fluctuate up and down. But not every economic agent would bring down those costs. I mean, whether we like it or not, one thing everybody agrees on is that the fallout of the U.S.-Iran conflict.
• 8:07
  The world has been going back to where it was before. When I look at the petrochemical supply chain, different supply chains, we're not going back to where we were before. Where we'll go to going forward, we don't know, but we're not going back to what it was before. So do you think what happens if we stay on this path for longer? What happens with inflation?
• 8:31
  the spike we've had in the recent last few months, what happens if it no longer becomes transitory? What will the CBN do? Right. Well, I mean, it's a brilliant question. I'd say that I'm glad I'm not the one solving the problems. Genuinely, I'm happy. On easy lies there that wears the crown, they always say. I mean, so if...
• 8:56
  If, for instance, I mean, personally, initially, I thought that they wouldn't hold rates. That was my initial thought. And as much as, and I think that's why I'm not an economist, because most economists expected them to hold rates, which is what the UK would do next month as well. What is expected of them to do next month at their next meeting is to hold rates.
• 9:24
  But I initially didn't think that was going to be the case. However, it made sense for them to hold rates. I mean, if rates stay where they are, we could go good paths, we could go bad paths, just on the basis that, say, for instance, the good paths, everybody likes that, inflation falls. So if they hold rates, if inflation falls...
• 9:52
  And, you know, the FEIs would stay interested, you know, in the Naira fixed income. So the forex market, you know, is calmer if they hold rates as they continue to, which might give the CBN more credibility to cut later. That's fine. That's the good side. If we go the bad side, you know, if inflation proves sticky.
• 10:20
  and they hold rates for higher and longer, SMEs will suffer. We're saying we want to stimulate the economy, but SMEs will suffer if you keep the rates high because they can't borrow. Banks would actually have to face their own asset quality because we don't know the asset quality pressure will be there. What would happen to the markets? Equity violations.
• 10:51
  cannot, you know, we can't really say we're finding prices problem. We can't really do that. And if fixed income yields are still higher because the rates are higher, then of course the markets would not get to where it should get to really because, you know, if I know that fixed income will give me more than the risk that I would bear if I go into the equities market, then I'll just stay there and take that.
• 11:22
  If we stay where we are, oil and gas will benefit definitely if rates stay as they are. Infrastructure will benefit. Forex sellers will be happy. Fixed income, they'll be happy. Exporters will be happy. But if we look at the results that we've been seeing in the markets, you would see that any highly leveraged FMCG,
• 11:53
  they will suffer. It's just what it is. And banks, I mean, if we add the capitalization and all of that, it doesn't really favor them. It's mixed. So that's what I would think of. Those are some of the things I would think about in terms of, and most of the time when I think about these questions, I think about how does it impact me investing in Nigeria in terms of how does that, what's the interface? And that's how I think about it.
• 12:23
  I mean, if I use my example here, because rates are elevated as well, it's not great for business because, you know, you have to really look at it and think, do I want to go get higher rates? No. And so you reduce whatever plans you intentionally had before for the business. So SMEs will not expand as they should. And that's not good for the economy. That's what I think of in Nigeria as well.
• 12:54
  I mean, I agree with you. And even though, I mean, I tend to knock some of the questions that Cardi B gets asked post-conference because I just feel that's a question that Ray likes with. But a common question that people keep asking is, okay, you keep rates, rates are this high, SME's business is under pressure, what is CBA going to do? And then I think it was asked that.
• 13:22
  at his meeting and he said, well, I mean, he tried to answer in a diplomatic way. He said, look, there are intervention funds here and there, but the reality is when we look at the scale of Nigeria and the economy, I don't think any intervention fund really can really solve that pain point for businesses. And I mean, some might argue that, look, we are in the pre-election year. You have probably maybe four or five months.
• 13:52
  for heavy political stats. There's not much room. If you don't cut now, cut it into an election cycle or cut it into an election, nobody wants to do that because people interpret it. Whichever way you raise, it's a problem. Cut is a problem. Some might say, maybe we should have thinker with a few other things. Because the impression I get just around disgusting markets,
• 14:23
  um is there's a lot of liquidity in the system um the the crazy commercial paper i see some commercial people for example i'm wondering how in the world did this get signed off you know how how but you know they get taken off um obviously equity's market and i was looking at the last tv option and there's liquidity in the system so you might wonder if you have
• 14:53
  money sloshing around, shouldn't you have tightened? I mean, FIARA is already tight. So I guess maybe it was the case of, you know what, choose the lesser evil. Do no harm and see how it goes. But I do hope you will be proven correct.
• 15:18
  I think he should have given a preview of what he was going to say to some of the team. He shouldn't have used the word strategy because the last central bank governor, Jerome Powell, didn't quite get it well. So I guess we'll watch how it goes. The next meeting is in July, which, come to think about it, I wonder what, well, July is two months from now. I guess he must have his reasons for having that meeting in July.
• 15:50
  Markets, in some ways, were kind of expecting its equity market. I didn't see much of a movement and all that. So I guess we'll wait and see. But I find the transit free term, I don't know. I think it's an academic concept for me. Because reality is, prices, once they go up, they don't really come down in Nigeria. They don't really come down. Yeah. So, I mean...
• 16:16
  I think the other issue is the reason, I mean, I'm now making excuses for them, although in my mind, I didn't think they were going to hold drugs. It's that, so I guess the reason he was talking about transitory and all of that is they don't know whether the fuel price pressure and the food price pressure, they don't know if those are temporary and they're thinking, is it broad-based or is it just, is inflation just...
• 16:46
  basically driven by this because if they don't have a hold of it at the minute if as if they're saying inflation rate is 15.69 or something along those lines what's the target you know what's it what's what's that do they have a target inflation rates for into for them i mean the cbm people to make this fbc needed for them to make a decision on whether they cut or hold or or raise inflation is growing
• 17:18
  for the world. I think honestly, I mean, some argue that back in the day, the point is that we had inflation. I mean, we had inflation at the 90s. People needed inflation at some point. That really didn't change much in the economy. So I tend to lean towards the school of southern. We need to grow. So if you have to deal with...
• 17:48
  higher inflation, grow the economy, and then come back and worry about inflation. But on the flip side of things, I mean, we don't really have a choice because, yes, I know inflation is a problem. Inflation is probably the biggest headache in Nigeria because you can't preserve wealth in an environment with double-digit inflation. It's extremely difficult to preserve wealth. And simply because you very few assets.
• 18:16
  consistently would give you double its returns and i know everybody says yes for the u.s stock market the past decade they've done well but the reality is at some point in time some might focus maybe the next decade you're not going to see those kind of crazy results you saw in the u.s uh and at the same time the question is what for each percent you can argue that those returns compress they'll be fine because if you have three four percent inflation in the u.s and you're doing say it's nine percent returns you're good that's fine
• 18:46
  For Nigeria, I mean, there's this thing that the guys that financial derivatives, so you have your inflation baskets and then you have the street inflation baskets and all that. Street inflation baskets probably is probably running higher than the 15% we have. But I guess...
• 19:12
  I guess we'd have to wait and see. I don't envy them there because it's a hard decision. We were on the discretionary part and then the conflict started. So it's a tough decision for them. I mean, it's good for the banks, good for the portfolios, but the reality is the banks are just a subset of the economy. But coming to the economy, what sector...
• 19:40
  are you most excited about? Ooh, I like that question. I mean, if you think about it, most people are talking about refinery and all that. For me, it's the energy infrastructure and financial infrastructure. Those two areas really. So when I say energy infrastructure, I mean, think about gas, refining, power, logistics, infrastructure finance as well.
• 20:11
  aviation handling. It's interesting because if you think about how many state governments are actually building airports, you know, and if you look at the numbers that some of these services, service providers are churning out, you're like, okay, there's something interesting. I mean, we've always known that Nigeria's issue is not demand. It's really not demand, it's productivity. That's where...
• 20:41
  That's where we fall short. And if we can just solve this energy problem, which we might be able to solve using gas, you know, it's that exciting. Of course, everyone's talking about the pending IPO. People are talking about it. Even if you're not going to get involved with it, just the fact the buzz that, you know, that is in the environment about it, it's quite interesting for me.
• 21:10
  And then when you say, when I say financial infrastructure, the banks have been forced to recapitalize. And that just strengthens that sector anyway. And so when we think about payments, exchanges, I mean, I know we have the NGX itself, we have CSCS, we have FNBQ, we have all these infrastructure companies and stuff.
• 21:39
  but then we have new challenges as well because i know there's that uh company that got just signed off the sec just signed them up to do to start an exchange so that's interesting uh you know so the truth is with the direction address going at the minute you know i i hope they continue with that direction of course they need infrastructure so companies that are
• 22:07
  in charge of it's like saying if you think about the gold rush then the people who actually made money were those who sold the shovels that people went to go look for gold so most of the people that went to look for gold did not find gold but the businesses that sold them the shovels they made money and when if you think of it like that i think i think
• 22:33
  From just a few conversations, you realize that I'm a capitalist in my mind. So in that way, I would say the energy infrastructure is interesting to me. The financial infrastructure is interesting to me ultimately. And the companies that are doing that and are listed, that is it. Okay, so let me flip the question. What sectors are you most...
• 23:03
  Bearish amounts? Bearish? At the minute, if I just look at it straightforward, I wouldn't say the banks. I wouldn't say the banks, but maybe, just maybe that sector, just because I think that, I don't think this is the end of the consolidation exercise. Personally, I think they still need to do more. I think.
• 23:38
  I think now that the SEC is thinking about it and the CBN and all these people, all these regulators are thinking about them seriously. I don't think this is the end of it. I think there'll be more to do. So personally, I won't buy banks. Just me. I won't buy banks. Just me. Because I think the era of easy money, free money is over personally for the banks.
• 24:09
  i know there's that idea that oh you know they've been paying me dividends forever they will continue to pay me dividends like there's an entitlement like that which which you know if you do something for so long and you are consistently doing it people tend to expect it but then when you start to see banks certain banks not doing that and unexpectedly although they they
• 24:37
  keep shifting the goalposts and blaming the regulators for the reasons why they're not doing that when we all know that, you know, size doesn't really matter, to be honest, because, you know, it's the quality of what you bring. It's not just your balance sheet stuff. So personally, I'm a bit bearish with your balance, but the rest of it, energy, not just because of the war, by the way.
• 25:05
  Because some of these businesses in the energy sector is not just the fact that it's not crude oil. It's not just as a gas. The focus is really on that gas and infrastructure and because it's clean and all of that. That's my answer. Okay. I mean, for me, the FMCD space I find interesting because
• 25:34
  I think there's been some cannibalisation there. In every economic crisis we've had, we've been hit hard, we've had some players pulled off, we've had some players become bigger. I was on the Unilever call and that's probably the first time in a long time I'm having a really excited feel of a Nigerian-listed entity.
• 26:04
  on an earnings call. I mean, the only CEO who probably brings that kind of vitality I can think of is the orange entity CEO. So I was on the Unilever call and the CEO says, Unilever Nigeria call, and the CEO says, look, they're going to be dialing up CapEx, which was interesting for me because they've been sitting on a chunk of cash.
• 26:32
  Clearly, you're seeing demand. Now, some might argue, where is the demand? Is this fresh demand? Is this demand coming because we are now the giants, bigger giants in space? So I find that space pretty interesting. I also find the creative space interesting. And I think it helps me to do any kind of non-public market investment, probably the creative space. Simply because...
• 27:02
  I think that in the Nigerian context, I think one of the best sectors to invest in are sectors that the government really has as little influence as possible. So when I look at, say, fashion, yes, you can argue it's hard to scale, but there are pockets of interesting businesses there, and that's the sector I follow. There's little government influence.
• 27:32
  Government can't come regulate dress sizes and all that. The best government does is take taxes. Maybe have three angry customers that could be settled. So I find the fashion space interesting. Where am I veering, Sean? I think security. Okay. I don't think, because it's a typical Nigerian.
• 27:59
  manner would solve the security issues but we're probably going to spend a lot more time getting to the solutions like power for instance I guess in a decade or so solve this power issue but at what cost and in what order would be the problem so I think the same thing with security yes you have the urban areas are somewhat fairly secure but
• 28:29
  if you have pockets of violence here and there, that's worrying because violence, and that's why you probably notice one of the reasons why governments try to meet violence in the board is if you don't contain violence, it escalates. So I think that in some ways the government has strived, but really, I think there's...
• 28:58
  At some point in time, we're going to have to dial up efficiently the security spend. I don't know how much of that will get into the NGX. I think we're going to have to dial up security spend across the country, federal, state, and local. You need all three arms doing that. Federal side of things, through the forces, yes, that happens. Pockets of states, you have assistance to the police and other forces, that happens. But local governments are going to have to step up.
• 29:27
  to solve security. I think that we are also going to have to use technology properly. We are sorely lacking in how we approach technology. I don't know if I'm wrong, but I've not seen anybody in the enforcement in Nigeria where anybody comes. I don't know if that exists. I've never seen that. Maybe there is. I've just not seen it. I don't know.
• 29:56
  Yeah, so, but we need to stop like that because you, you, I was joking with someone that in certain parts of the world, I'm walking around at 1 a.m., 2 a.m., I see a policeman with like hair your height. I'm not really for that. But if I'm walking around in certain parts of the country, I can walk around at 11 a.m. or midnight. Yeah, because there is the long,
• 30:27
  state actors, and on the other hand, you know, there is this relationship between the police and civilians. So I think we need to see, we're going to have to see more technology spent. I don't know what the technology companies are doing, but we need to see more technology spent. We need to start seeing policemen wearing body cams. We need to have more cameras, active cameras working in the country.
• 30:55
  We need to have drones actively, so in places where you can't get police training. Why don't you have a drone patrol? Every three, four hours, have a drone fly. It's doable. It's money. It's spending money. Get the results. But we need that because diesel pockets, fixing pockets of the country and larger pockets are problematic. It's not going to work. So I'm very sure that sector, I think, would have to get it right.
• 31:24
  um at at some point uh entertainment i find interesting because purchasing power is low but this would augment interference i think it's scalable um i think i mean it's called legos where where i'm largely you have these graves just maybe a convention group therapy and all that and all these different areas i find i find the concept
• 31:52
  interesting question is how do we scale it and move it around the country? You know, I think eventually we're going to have to find a way, at least in low purchasing power, we're going to have to find a way to make that sector work. And I just like it because governments are very involved. You're not worrying about getting some license. Nobody's going to worry that you've made a billionaire or a trillionaire and then you have, you know,
• 32:21
  some fine coming from the blues and all that. So, I mean, I'm interested in those spaces because I think that we just have to, we have to just dialogue things as an economy. There's so much room for growth. The traditional areas, infrastructure, energy, yeah, we need to fix that. But the soft areas are also important because, I mean, everybody talks about
• 32:48
  30 December. Yes, I don't enjoy December in Lagos. It's not quiet. The question is, why just 30 December in Lagos? Why not around the country? Why don't you scale it to 5, 6 cities in the country? Yeah, I mean, there is the river Itio, Itio River, which is so clear. Why don't you get people there?
• 33:15
  That's a whole other conversation. So I'm interested in those areas as well. I mean, I think we do that because I don't know if it ever happened, but imagine if we had more hits instead of the Nigerian Stock Exchange. Oh, I love it. I mean, people would die because people would die and definitely that's, I think, where we're on later. So that's for that. Coming back to the land of...
• 33:45
  king charles uh there's been some news of um dangodism listing on the normal state exchange and yes this broke out first is well for our audience who probably don't know this has been a project that has been on if i call correctly for over five years um so this is something that uh alico dangute has has been interested in
• 34:13
  And so, at a point in time, you had the critique of the board, getting people who were less experienced in matters, or at least who meet up with UK standards. So you had, that's how you got, I think, Cherry Blair. I don't know if she's still on the board, but at a point in time, you had Cherry Blair on the board and a few other people. But it seems, it seems something has changed. I don't know if it's in the air in London, maybe you can tell me. But we're seeing, and I think, yeah, it could be in the air, and I think,
• 34:46
  For the newer generation, and maybe this is why I do podcasts like this, I remember watching the Apropolitian podcast and I was listening to a version, I don't know if it's a video, but anyway, you had Austin Aguru, who's co-founder of CEPLAT on the podcast, and he was explaining how CEPLAT came on the Non-Hospitality Exchange.
• 35:15
  occurs to me that the average 25 year old how did you know the magnitude of what that was for settlers the magnitude of that and even now you have the orange bank listed on the LSE which happened I recall last year the scale and magnitude of the
• 35:44
  why it's such a big deal. I don't think people get it. Maybe the banks haven't articulated why, which is unlike big shares. Some people call him. I don't think he quite articulated why. Maybe he did. Maybe we didn't get the content. So the thing is, what is it about London, the London stock market? What is it about the UK that
• 36:15
  attracting companies to list there? Why is London special? Right, so there are a few reasons. First of all, the easy ones, the fact that we think about time zones. At the minute, we're on the same time zone. That helps in terms of the distance. I mean, I could be, if you think about it as an investor, I could be in Nigeria, I could leave the UK tonight.
• 36:43
  By 5 a.m., I'm in Nigeria, six hours. Six hours direct flight, British Airways, and Nigerian Airlines. So I could do that six hours. So I'm here tonight. I'm in Lagos, 6 a.m., small morning. I can finish whatever I've come in to do. I can be back in the UK same day. So people take that for granted. If we think about,
• 37:13
  the cultural aspect of it as well. I mean, speaking to people, you would realize that people prefer the proximity. So that helps. Legally as well, if you think about the fact that our common law is similar, there's similarity in it. And this goes back to, you know, independence and all of that. There's a thing with the Nigerian,
• 37:46
  I have to say, the Nigerian community here, there's that affinity like, oh, it's just London now. London, there it goes. It's like we are familiar. There's a part of London that you go to, say for instance, say Peckham, you go to Peckham, you would think you're in Oshodi. I'm telling you now, you think you're in Oshodi, people just, yeah, I'm not sure.
• 38:10
  You know, it's like that. So there's that. Now, why the London Stock Exchange? For instance, I come back to Dangote. I mean, Dangote has been trying to list for a long time, long time. This new, this latest one, this latest attrition is gone for a long years. I mean, it's tried to do longer, earlier than this. But they changed the rules recently. They changed the LSE.
• 38:39
  they reduced their demands. Second, listing is also attractive to overseas companies. That's why you'd see Jitiko, Separat, Airtel, and a few more companies as well, but they're not listed on the LSE. They're not listed on the NGX in Nigeria, but they are listed on the LSE and they trade primarily in Nigeria.
• 39:08
  for instance, say, Savannah, for instance, Savannah Energy, you know, they're probably the primary source of income or revenue, whatever. It's generally said in Nigeria, but generally said on the NGS, generally said on the LSE. So also, if you think about the banking relationships that we have, say, the Nigerian and the UK relationship, most of the time, the UK
• 39:38
  banks fund some of the projects as compared to the US. Now also, in terms of the regulatory requirements for you to list, say on the New York Stock Exchange, versus to list as an international company now, on the other side, you'll see there are more demands on the New York Stock Exchange. There are more demands, more submissions, it's rigorous, it's just tough.
• 40:07
  It's tougher, that's the word. So recently, you know, and the reason they choose London sometimes, after all, is credibility. It's just what it is. I mean, UK companies eventually, they get, either they get bought by US companies, which has happened a lot of times in the recent years, or they pack up and go list there.
• 40:37
  So why is it that Nigerian companies are coming back? Think about the impact of diaspora remittances on the GDP of Nigeria itself. So businesses in Nigeria are thinking, well, people would generally identify with them. So Nigerians here, for instance, will identify with those companies when they reach here. They're like, oh, I know GT now. Even though it may not be the same.
• 41:07
  but you're thinking that it's cheatsy. Oh, Zenit, oh, okay. I know that. Oh, Semplat, oh, it's our own. Ah, there is that. So that happens as well. Now, somebody might say, oh, why not? But then I just, you know, why is it not? But these are the bigger markets. You just get lost in the sea. Like, a lot of situations, like, just a bigger point than the Indians. Yes. So.
• 41:35
  We think of it like the valuation of it as well. So the NSE allows, when you do secondary listing, they allow you to keep your Nigerian base as it were, you know, and then you can come list, secondary listing, you can have price discovery, you can have more liquidity, you can have more access to card currency. And so that is why, or that's one of some of the reasons why Nigerian companies think, okay, we'll go to the NSE.
• 42:04
  But these things are good, to be fair, to Nigerian companies. I mean, if as a Nigerian, you don't want to play fool on the LSE because you don't know what to do, if you only target companies that are Nigerian companies listed on the LSE, just because Nigerian companies are listed on the LSE, if that's all your portfolio, I don't think you'll do badly.
• 42:34
  it's i'm not recommending it's i'm just saying is i think there's there's that form of identification that we have naturally we get drawn to these things um plus some reasons okay i i i okay i can't i buy that but maybe my pushback i wonder would be some argue that okay um the
• 43:04
  The LSE isn't as prominent as it used to be. Do you think, I mean, yes, if you compare the LSE to the guys who consult streets here, the LSE is way bigger. But you might wonder, would, why not a pan-African listing? I know with the refineries, it's only with a pan-African listing.
• 43:39
  What do you think the LSE can do to kind of accelerate this, for instance? Why did it take so long? I mean, yes, rules have been simplified. So you've got GTCO, maybe fingers crossed. We're lucky sometimes you see a label get a good cement. Then the bank is warming up. Why did it take so long?
• 44:07
  I mean, honestly, I think it's even easier now. They've actually reduced some of, they've actually done a few reforms. It used to be tighter than this before. But if you think about it, the UK market itself is cheaper right now. Their businesses are, companies are undervalued in comparison to, you know, when we say something is small, it means that there's something bigger that we're comparing it to.
• 44:31
  So I'm not comparing the UK market to the NGX. I'm comparing the UK market to other G7 markets. I'm comparing it to US markets. So I'm saying it's smaller in that sense. But, so when you think of it that way, they are trying, what the UK is trying to do is the LSE is trying to attract more international companies to comment on the LSE because they're also finding that.
• 45:00
  Even London companies are leaving to go list in the US because it's a big market. So it's like, okay, so who are we bigger than? Okay, let's go and attract those ones that we are bigger than. And then when, and our selling point should be come to us, get a bit more credibility, get, you know, have an idea of what is expected of you if you decide to go to the NYSE, for instance, you know. So use us as like a...
• 45:29
  a stepping part, come to us, launchpad, come to us, list on our bin. And then when you go to anyone, you tell them, oh, we are listed on the LSA. That's the idea. So as it is, they have actually not tightened the reforms. They've actually reduced it because it used to be harder than this to actually even list in the first place. If you think about...
• 45:57
  the things that are going on on the NGX, which I don't think we want to talk about, but those things, some of the disclosures, corporate disclosures and all that, they won't be able to get away with it if they list on the other side, regardless of the fact that it's a secondary listing. They won't get away with it. And so if they try that with that bank, for instance, in Nigeria, that they are begging them to release their four-year financial statement, like that.
• 46:26
  that literally needs to be made when other people are already submitting the quarter one. You can't do that. And so your selling point, if you get listed on LSE, like, oh, look at us. We meet all the regulations. Look at us. We are very good. That's why we are listed. And that's the idea, really. So it's the credibility. You see, the credibility is the main thing. And they know. The LSE too knows. They know, you know, they are aware.
• 46:55
  So they've actually reduced the requirements. That is why Dangote is trying to do it again. If you think about, say, for instance, just the floats, for instance, the free floats, they won't meet the requirements to list on the LSE if they don't release more of the shares. That's just one of the requirements. But you can freely do that on the NGX and get away with it with 5% floats.
• 47:27
  Okay. So, last topic, and this is, I mean, I'm trying to, I'm trying different WhatsApp groups from the cross Twitter timeline. It's kind of tired. This talk is, I mean, first is, my key with the whole vacuum capitalization thing is,
• 47:59
  I feel it could have been done in a more selective manner because when you look at some of the use of proceeds, when the bank tells you, oh, we're going to expand the branch network, we're going to do IT upgrades, it's simply a case of, okay, we have to raise money, so we have to do something with the money. Because banks really don't upgrade IT infrastructure until it becomes inevitable.
• 48:30
  um so in some ways i kind of feel and some of these financial institutions are left sitting with a huge chunk of capital that may be suboptimally deployed because what do you do you know um and then you have the the tier two banks that in between the barely well maybe like i'll say tier 2.2 because when you look at your
• 49:02
  eti and time big i mean i don't think it's i don't think it's fair to call those the banks but i guess we call those ones tier one light banks and i like to use the term and then you have tier two tier 2.2 banks uh fidelity sterling fcnb what do you think is the pathway for growth
• 49:29
  i'm trying not to do cheap to focus or to zoom in and stealing even just saying it's my focus because in some ways they are all kind of in the same um boots even though they've tried to do things differently so fidelity says okay we have fidelity london and i think probably tomorrow fidelity calls now but that's just what we said um we are fidelity bank q1 numbers you don't have them you know but you dropped your
• 49:58
  If I recall correctly, it dropped to 225 numbers last week, so we are the Q1 numbers. Hopefully, they drop tomorrow before the call. But they are all in the same boat, which, when it comes to your earlier point, I don't agree with the school of thought, but I think it does have some weight. Some people might say, look, four or five years from now, we are going to see another round of capitalization.
• 50:31
  If that happens, are we going to see a scenario whereby the fugas become bigger and the tier 2.2 banks get squeezed? Because when I look at the entire environment, sure, I mean, they're doing okay. But fast forward five years, 10 years from now, what is the competitive edge?
• 51:02
  that they have because if you're talking about brand spread, quality of service, well you can get that from the T.M.O. live banks, you don't always use the Fugas banks. Some would say banking at its core, really they all sell the same products with different trading factors and quality of service, right? So it's kind of like
• 51:32
  telling. First, I don't know how they were able to, but I'm happy for them that they got the approval to do capital, what do they call it? I mean, back in the day, they used to call it the share reconstruction, but they call it capital reconstruction or something else. They got that, which is nice, but I just kind of feel...
• 51:58
  I mean, yes, I'm bearish on the stock. I'm bearish on the stock. It's simply because I don't see the pathway. They're going to do a Kamsan reconstruction, in the same sense. And they're probably going to raise money. When I look at it, they're raising money. Last I recall, it probably wasn't to get into asset management. But if it gets into asset management,
• 52:26
  well you stand between the king kong in that space the question i mean i mean even with with the orange bank some might wonder was there really a need for the whole code because sure the asset management the pension fund the payments doing well but the question is five six years from now how much of size they have so within this telling and the two banks what do you think
• 52:55
  What do you think is the path going forward for them? Well, I mean, your points are valid, honestly. I think the problem with tier two banks is that if they try or to be like tier one banks, that would be their problem if they try. So if Sterling decides that, oh, we want to be like, we want to be a smaller version of Fugas, for instance.
• 53:25
  But that will not work. It just will not work because they cannot outscale any of those banks in everything. So here comes the question, do we specialize or should we generalize? So I would personally, I would think specialization is better because they are tier two banks. If they attempt to...
• 53:55
  say you want to look at look at access access buys everything they might you know and we joke about it but you know if the cbn goes up for sale today they will buy a cbn that's how access keeps buying everything you know if the cbn says oh we're for sale access will buy that's their own their own is by branches just raise capital by branches that model is dead for chetubans i would suggest that they should have
• 54:24
  a niche, a defendable niche. So, I mean, there should be banks that just focus on, say, healthcare, that just focus strictly on renewable energy or agriculture, you know. And these sectors, these sectors need, you know, they need their own, they need, like, banks for it, you know. There are quite a number of things that they could do. I mean, we know that Jai's bank is non-interested, apparently.
• 54:54
  from conversations and stuff. I mean, so there are, there should be banks that are specifically for SMEs and that is all they do. So if tattoo banks specialize and just focus and say, right, we're not trying to be fuggas. We're not trying to be them because we don't, we don't have the scale. We don't have the money. We can't compete in that space. It's just the truth. So, so the question is, do we?
• 55:20
  choose one or two and just be very good at it and everybody comes to us if they need that service or do we just become everything to everybody and nobody actually comes to us and and that's the issue so so the question the question for if i were a tier two person director whatever that would be the question what exactly do they know us for what what what will our customers know us for you know
• 55:50
  Because generally, everybody attends to retail. Generally, all of them. And they keep telling us about the percentage of the unbanked people, unbanked population. And the numbers are so high. They keep saying maybe between 6% and 5% or something like that. They say it's high, unbanked people. So there's a market. The question is, is there money in the market? That market is there, but who's going to fill the gap?
• 56:19
  And then somebody might say, oh, what about fintechs and stuff? So, I mean, I think for tier two banks, it would be nice or it would be better for them if maybe they have partnerships or they consolidate as well. You know, if you think about it, just I think it was earlier today that they had that meeting, the AGM for Wehrmacht. And in that, when they were doing their voting, they were talking about, you know, having powers to acquire something.
• 56:48
  They could acquire something. And if you look at the recapitalization that they've done so far, only 33 out of the 36. What happens to the other last three? We don't know the outcome yet. So there's that that can happen. Of course, we know the Fugas are fine. So it's definitely not a one-man. So it's definitely one of those. And, you know, the idea that they could just raise capital and just have branches, no one's doing that.
• 57:23
  It won't work. If they specialize, it would help them. So they could do partnerships with fintechs. They could do consolidation, buy something else. Specialization, cost discipline. If you look at their books as well, you might find that some, if they improve collections alone, I mean, there was that article I read recently, maybe a few days ago, someone else wrote it, but I read it. And it was talking about why lots of businesses have
• 57:57
  high receivables on their books and there's some that are i mean i know more about the niger economy by just looking at the companies on the sgs and just reading their books that's that's how i i get more information about the economy you know and and you see high receivables a lot and it keeps growing and you're looking at you keep this company high receivers check next on same thing there's something and so we need businesses or we need banks that can
• 58:28
  fill the gap. There's trade finance that they could focus on, there is, you know, healthcare that we could do something about. They could, a drink, for instance. I mean, most of the time now, if banks were actually doing their jobs, to be honest, if some of the banks are actually doing their jobs, businesses are trying to do it so that you can guarantee more currency and all of that.
• 59:00
  And you're not funding them. Maybe that might help. Maybe that might separate them from everybody else. As long as they're not thinking that they'll become focused. I mean, I got interested in Fidelity a few years ago, maybe three years ago. I was watching the AGM and the chairman, most people chairman, and he was talking about, at that time, I think the share price was under nine, it was like six, nine or something.
• 59:30
  And he mentioned at that age, and I'm sure if we check YouTube, you'll probably be there, but I watched it live. And he said that they were aiming to, they were targeting one of, they could catch one of the cougars at that meeting, you know, saying that. And I got really impressed and I was excited and I bought their shares and I was like, ah, yes, come on. And then whatever happened after that and stuff. So I think that if the tier two banks stop trying to be tier one banks.
• 59:58
  In other words, if they stop trying to be smaller versions of Fugas and just separate themselves and just target, they specialize and say, right, this is what we do, this is what we're known for. All we do is SMEs. We don't do retail. It's just SMEs. It will help them. You know, they will reduce that cost to automate credit scoring. You know, credit scoring is a fun thing in Nigeria with all the data that they have and credit scoring is not automatic.
• 1:00:29
  I don't know how that works. I think the challenge you're scoring is those that have the information, the sharing process, people don't want to share information. That's just the challenge. Everybody does the same thing already. You do the data one more time. It's terrible. Informal ways of dealing with recalcitrant death loss. I think it's on the fintech side of the page. Informal ways of plugging.
• 1:00:59
  guys um but i don't know about the the big fans i think for me the challenge is i mean there are just many so many carcasses in those sectors i mean you have smes that's every bank in diamond bank tried and they didn't end so nice um sterling does a bit of education healthcare financing the any part in the room for me and when i look at all the banks
• 1:01:29
  And the reason I'm still trying to wrap my head around this, why is your cost-to-income ratio so high? Your footprint isn't huge. It's not adding up for me. And I think it's something that CBN has to help. Because even for the likes of UVA, the reality is, why are you so heavy?
• 1:01:59
  Why is it so heavy? I think some of these banks need to close branches drastically. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on what side of the equation you are, to open a branch, bank branch in Nigeria, you need CBN approval, obviously. And to close the bank branch in Nigeria, you need CBN approval as well. So getting, obviously, getting CBN approval to close the bank branch.
• 1:02:27
  it's tough. So what happens is bands then change to then scale down some of these branches, but you still have branches that you're running that really, I don't know. I mean, on one hand, I remember I was listening to Jeremy's bank CEO, group CEO, saying,
• 1:02:48
  Sure, we're going to expand that bridge a bit. I think it's outside Africa, maybe a few branches in Nigeria as well. Yes, there's a need for physical branches, but at the same time, I just feel some of these banks really need to scale down the physical operations and all that. And just generally, because when I look at, I mean, they all are kind of interesting in some ways. So if I look at the women bank balance sheet,
• 1:03:19
  I recall that I was the first balance sheet. So the first balance sheet, I was very bond heavy. I wonder why. I don't think they ever did a call. Maybe they didn't call. I didn't get a call. I didn't see any notice of the call. I just, it's a really unique thing. I guess they have their reasons why they are balance sheeting bond heavy. And then I look at Fidelity, and Fidelity is like a really, really interesting, it has a huge retail operation.
• 1:03:46
  and all that. So I'm wondering how were they able to do that? Because it certainly works. So when my bank has a stake, it's a lot, generally has a stake. FCMB, I like to call it the mini-Stambic IBTC, but they need to grow. So yes, that makes sense. Stellium for me, I like Stellium in some ways reminds me of Google, right?
• 1:04:13
  or google the led is very innovative very interesting very nice bizarre but it's the the numbers the bottom line just needs to to grow faster and i think the cbl really needs to do something i i don't i mean i i think we've left that age well i don't think kadibi is the kind of person to rock the boats but when i think of this i just feel and i've already said it that
• 1:04:43
  in the tier two space in under five to seven years we just agreed to have to see some form of consolidation. I don't see why we have five, six tier two banks. I mean, I understand the non-interest banks, the Jais, Lotus, and all that, I get those things. But the first question is why do we need all...
• 1:05:14
  four or five of them. I just, and even in chair one, I think when chair one, everybody's stepping up now, but I don't know. I think definitely there's going to be more consolidation. I feel, even though I'm not in the camp, but I guess I get the pragmatism behind what if they say, hey, we're going to have five, six years from now raise capital base once more.
• 1:05:46
  I mean, if slash when that happens, then I just need to sell all banks and exit the banking space because, yeah, I mean, when you look at a lot of these banks, this money is just going back to sitting bonds and treasury bills. Yeah, that's what I mean. That's the challenge I have. I mean, already banks see what we say, look.
• 1:06:14
  there's the macros and you know i don't have to and all i owe you is in essence return on yield now whether that yield comes from my loan book or comes from assets i hold whichever way it is so i just um i just feel we need more consolidation um i quite like um all the two banks they are all unique they are interesting ways but i just feel
• 1:06:44
  um we need we we need to because like i mean you look at sterling now you're going to do reconstruction probably at some point in time you want to raise money so i just i mean and this is why the challenge i had with the cbn that this whole capital page should have been selected
• 1:07:13
  So you say, hey, bank A, B, and C, these are the problems you have. Go fix this and that. I mean, there are pros and cons. Some will say, look, you know what? Easy thing to do. Everybody go raise equity. I want to see your cash. Great. It makes sense. On the flip side, if you have suboptimal use of cash, it doesn't work out fine for me. So I think 2026 is going to be a tough year for...
• 1:07:42
  tier two banks tier one banks kind of find their way um in this pan-african model that works with them uh access work in progress even though i think some of those acquisitions i mean just some of those acquisitions are going to be unwound at some point i don't know when but if you tell me that all those acquisitions are we all are going to be value accretive
• 1:08:10
  I don't agree. I don't agree. But they'll hack it out. GTCO, what happens after Big Sheck leaves? I don't know. First, yeah, reform in progress, even though I feel I don't think enough heads have rolled in the first month. Because when you...
• 1:08:40
  you're spending the kind of money you spent last year on PR. I don't know. I think heads, just generally, I don't think enough heads have rolled in that bank. So it's an interesting play and all that. Banks are still cheap. A lot of them are still trading. Because you can argue, how do you have some of the best-run banks in Nigeria? They're trading at what? Left-hand.
• 1:09:10
  30 cents or 40 cents. I don't know. I mean, GT is what? GT is 10 level cents, last I checked. So, it should be an interesting space for the banks. I'm not... If you make money, fine. If you don't, I guess we'll have to wait and see. But for some of them, especially the T2 banks, I'm just... Maybe it's the same with you and me.
• 1:09:39
  I'm looking at the provisions that some of the tier one banks have done. And I don't see tier two banks with provisions that are high. So the question is, yes, they have smaller loan books. But are you saying that you have better risk management than the big five banks in the country? Possibly. Possibly, you do have better. I mean, there's one of them. You mentioned this. When I look at the stage two,
• 1:10:10
  You can't have a woman who is a millionaire and she's not writing heavy things down. That's the only anomaly I have with that value. The issue is just uncomfortably high for me. It's all so. I guess we'll have to see. Hopefully, maybe we'll get FCMB results sometime soon.
• 1:10:39
  I love that. But I think that the, the, it's going to be an interesting time to take to space. Yeah. I think that's where the most fun, fun will be for, for investors and all. So, a big thank you for giving me, this is an hour and 10 minutes, I'm guessing an hour and 15 minutes of your time on a Wednesday evening, halfway through the week.
• 1:11:10
  I don't know how you guys do it, but for me, the longer trading hours on the NGX have been intellectually stimulating, but physically, you know, breaking for me because, yes, it's hectic. I quite enjoy it, but it's hectic. So I don't know how you guys in the city of London do it, but it's not funny. And then there's the US. So maybe I was talking to someone that...
• 1:11:40
  maybe can we have can we just have can we have the ngx one day treatment for us that's just like for some of us so you know whenever you wake up you can see your traits i like this but can we have it for us can we can we have it longer um i i i'm looking forward to the numbers i i find this so extension of trading hours rather interesting um yes it's
• 1:12:08
  nice stuff happened but i'm just wondering um what are the challenges the exchange facing and the brokers how are they coping so i think that's that's something to do so anyways thank you for giving me another 11 minutes of your time i hope this was worthwhile um usually i i i like to think that it was worthwhile um and uh i hope i hope we would see you
• 1:12:38
  sometime before the year runs out, even though the year is going so fast. I mean, next week or so, probably almost done, May starts, five months after the year, seven months to go and all that. So, thank you for joining and have a good rest of the evening. And before I go, I've asked most of the questions. You have questions for me. Let's do something different. I like that question. Yeah, I think my question,
• 1:13:06
  would be around how the NGX can freeze the listings, the companies that list on the NGX because there was that vacancy application they put out a few months ago and I think the role of the person they were looking for was to make sure if they could double
• 1:13:35
  the comment listings over a short period of time. So I'm assuming they're really thinking about it. That's one of the things I would like to find out. What do you think they can do differently to encourage, say, Nigerian businesses to actually list? And the other part is, and this is a big controversial, but why is the CEO of the SGS not?
• 1:14:03
  a shareholder in the business itself? So I'll start with the easier one, which is soliciting. I mean, I think to, I mean, I'd say to put it politely, I guess they have, maybe there's stuff happening behind the scenes, but I think that from my looking as an outsider, I think that the management seems to be more focused.
• 1:14:36
  on the big ticket listings. And yeah, I kind of get that because, I mean, if we can get the language refinery listed this year, man, that's, you might as well just shut down for that end of the year. It would start getting better. But the job of getting additional listings, I think it's a very hard and sexy job. And in some ways,
• 1:15:05
  I feel that the, I don't know what issue, you know, where you come in. I mean, to come into your White House, I don't know if it's a change. If you come into your White House, you have an envelope where your predecessor writes. It gives you a rundown. I don't know if that's, yes, I'm sure they have hand-to-handles and all that, but I don't know if hand-to-handles are introspective enough on that. I think that,
• 1:15:36
  getting more listings is going to require a lot of legwork um and i don't know if if if the current structure of the ng i mean some ways yeah i might love them a lot but they've done some things right so we have the demutualization that took forever but it's eventually happened and they're close and constantly neutralization but well i think they're both
• 1:16:05
  pros in my view um we had individualizations happened um you've had better disclosure it could be better but when i think of the fact that when i started to promote the markets in 2015 2016 he didn't have insider deals um um sensing at the notice so all you know is you would then i just i would look at the daily trades and i'll see that oh i'm seeing
• 1:16:37
  Oh, maybe XYZ company is trading 10 million shares. And normally they trade 100,000 shares. And then, okay, something's up. And then I have to dig my sources and reach out to this broker and that broker. Hey, what's happening? What's happening? What's happening? Gradually that improved over time. So yes, was it slow? Yes, but it happened. So there's been some improvement. The trading has been, that I don't think was a pressing priority. Yes, it was needed, but.
• 1:17:07
  that wasn't the first surprise to me but it's happened it's good obviously it's accommodates a diaspora um audience so there's been some improvement but i think things have been a bit slow um i think more leg was required because you want to get more listings you have a bunch of discos federal government has some stake in them so the easiest thing to me for me to do is to say look go through the list of federal government assets see what you can list and
• 1:17:36
  pick one every year. Yeah, so if you could pick one every year, I think that would work. For the text, the print text, some might say, I don't get it. We have foreign money there. Foreign money is not really interested. And the hard work of making the exchange suitable, I'm not sure it's within the exchange's hands. That's the whole macro conversation. So you're going to need some legwork. I don't know if...
• 1:18:04
  the interest that maybe would have is and i guess every ceo has what they uh are interested in to to some extent you might say oscar the previous ceo kind of took um the mutualization top of the past and executed um to me it's any days yeah but you can say well timmy's probably extended trading hours
• 1:18:31
  probably we get the big tangency refinery listing, and if it becomes the pan-African listing, then yes, you say it's done that. So legwork is needed. Two is, I think you're going to have to give sweeteners. So we need to do something crazy. Can you say, if you come and listen to NJ, can you give me a three-year tax holiday? Go do it. Do what you have to do. Give me a three-year tax holiday. And I know people complain about...
• 1:19:00
  Ali Cash and all that. But if I were him, I would say, look, you want me to list my referring? Give me a tax holiday. Give me a tax holiday. Give me a one-year tax holiday if you want me to come list on the NGX. I don't know if he's going to do that, but I would do that. I would say, you want me to come on the NGX? NGX CEO, give me a tax holiday. Give me a one-year tax holiday.
• 1:19:25
  Even if it's a one-year tax holiday. Get me a one-year tax holiday. So you need to do stuff crazy like that. I don't need the structure that lets them to be that crazy. And I also feel that a lot of the guys there, I don't know. I look at the CEO of the Kenyan exchange and I've seen the guy on Twitter. But, man, I don't know what streets I would see. I mean, I haven't been to...
• 1:19:55
  I haven't been to the exchange building in maybe four or five years because I just don't see the need to go. A lot of times, the events that happen there are just not stimulating. And maybe in some ways, as the firm has become bigger, I have less and less time. So it's easier for me to join online and catch up on what's happening. So we need something radical. We need a radical.
• 1:20:23
  in that place. I don't think the guys there are radical. Yeah. To your second question, I have one second question again. Why is the CEO of the NGX not a shelter in the business? I'm guessing maybe some form of corporate rules, but I think that's something that should be fixed. That's the only explanation I can give. I think that's something that should be fixed. Even if you have
• 1:20:53
  a thousand shares because really there should be some commitment to it. So I'm guessing that's something that should be fixed. I know that I'm not sure if that will be put into practice. I read somewhere some years ago there was supposed to be a staff share investing scheme, I think, of some sort. Whether that's hitting, I'm not too sure, but that would be nice.
• 1:21:21
  to see because when I think of it, the firm still remains largely owned by brokers and institutional players. So yes, you've seen some retail. I don't have, I mean, probably you'll get that information, but I guess you see more retail holding that stock, but a huge chunk of it is held by brokers and early players in the markets.
• 1:21:49
  And that's what you have also with other exchanges, other platforms, your CSCS, your FNDQ, your NESD. It's still early participants that have the huge chunk of shares. So I think that needs to change. But really, yeah, that's probably my thoughts on why that hasn't happened yet. So they've made some progress. It's not over. I just think they...
• 1:22:19
  there is the disconnect. Because a lot of the things that they're working on are stuff that people have complained. I mean, the longer trading hours, for instance, forever, people have complained. Why did it take so long? Maybe it was in the works, maybe in the process. So, it's like the 100K rule. I'm tired of talking about the 100K rule. I'm just not able to talk about it. So, yeah. But, in fairness,
• 1:22:46
  a few things right since there has been improvement when you look at the last 15-20 years clearly there's been improvement it's just it's just a bit slow because when you look at the environment you're competing with um you're competing with Kenya you're competing with Ghana you're competing with Egypt you're competing with South Africa so if the question is what moves are they making are you making those kind of moves and I don't think we're making those kind of moves yet yes we have the advantage of a big economy
• 1:23:13
  You can get big listings. So I think you need somebody who's radical, who can do that left walk. Maybe it's happening behind the scenes. Maybe it's a bit slow. But those are the kind of things that we need to do as a country. And I also feel, I don't think they've blocked it, but the retail participation has gone up. Now, whether it should be sticky or not, I don't know.
• 1:23:42
  see the next economic crisis they will learn to be sticky or not but it has gone up um and so what you should do in that case is still look i'm trying not to mention names but if you probably look at the top 10 volume and value traders brokers and all that you have probably one one fintech that's doing something interesting and i find that interesting but the question is whatever they're doing how can we scale it right like how how does a firm that is
• 1:24:12
  I'm barely 10 years old and I'm seeing you talk about value trading. What do they do? How can we get five more players to do the same thing? What do we need to get them to do? Why can't we have fractional shares? So a share in SEPAT is 11,000 plus. 11,000 naira is a lot of money for people. So what are we going to do? Can we have fractional SEPAT shares?
• 1:24:41
  or who can't have fractional surpluses. I'm just making it easy, more liquid. So if I have it, $2,000, I can buy one or two surpluses just to follow it. So I guess they're doing stuff, but maybe it needs to be faster. We need to see more communication. There's a saying that companies take on the personalities of management. My take is that...
• 1:25:11
  for some reason when i look at the ngs we have uh very reticent um by personality people as uh ceos the approach that comes to it the last ceo that was a sales person was india kirk and then after india and everybody's been kind of cool but
• 1:25:43
  Really, you need to get, you know, so you need a CEO who's really, really serious. Maybe 10 years, I don't know. But we just need that someone who can go out there, push everywhere, and that way push, talk to the retail, talk to institutional. Because I think when you look at some of the players there, I mean, the popular red socks, red tie billionaire has companies that could be listed on the NGX.
• 1:26:13
  So why don't you get him to list some of his other companies on the NGX? I mean, that's someone who would do so. You can give him a good deal. Aladji is doing great. Aladji is doing great, but can we say, look, what else can you list? What else are you doing? How can we even get you to... So that's why I'm saying that we need out-of-box thinking. Can you do...
• 1:26:40
  tax holidays? Can you give incentives? What can you give to these companies? If you have to talk to the tax authorities, talk to the Ministry of Finance, talk to anybody you need to talk to. You need to get these things done. So I don't know if that's their aim. I guess everybody has a strategy, but we need a face. We need somebody who's more outgoing. We don't have that. And there are pros and cons to it, but we need an outgoing
• 1:27:10
  person. If the CEO is not going to be outgoing, I'll have somebody else on the team. I know at a point in time, the Kenyan exchange had a forgotten title. There was a lady called Beto Mwema. I don't know if she's still there, but you had someone whose job was, you know, kind of work as a linkage person with all these things and all that. So, can we have somebody whose job is to do that?
• 1:27:38
  I remain optimistic about the markets. There's been some progress. It's been slow, but we continue to call them out. I mean, last week they did the space. That was nice. I'll get them to have the space every Saturday. I don't think it's too much to do that because really, I don't even want to talk about the AGM sale these days. They are not inspired. So yeah, those are the things I think they can do. I think eventually they can do it, but I also feel...
• 1:28:06
  I would just be the radical person. Every organization at some point in time has a radical person coming in to help it. Would that ever happen with the NGX? I don't know. But I remain, what's the saying? Hope springs eternal. So I remain eternally hopeful. Yeah. Wonderful. Wonderful. Thank you. So thank you for giving me an hour and 27 minutes of your time. I'm cognizant about time because I know you're going to be doing that soon. I hope.
• 1:28:35
  that you'll oblige me next time. Hopefully, I don't know if I'm ever going to do it again. Hopefully, we'll have the 24-hour spaces that we do. I don't know if I'm going to do that. It was nice last time. No, no, no. Honestly, you know, thank you for all the time as well, you know, for inviting me and stuff. And let me just mention, you do an amazing job, yourself and your team with contents and, you know, educational bits that you do for free for people.
• 1:29:05
  It's really good. And, you know, I'm a fan. I'm a big fan. Thank you. I mean, what do I say? I mean, I've lost for words. So if you say I'm a fan, what should I be? Yeah, so thank you for that. We just, we try. It's important because when I think about it, while we're doing this podcast, for instance, there is a...
• 1:29:35
  Huge chuckle. Like financial literacy is at ground zero. Unfortunately, literacy is a very unprofitable venture generally. So you see organizations, anybody who's doing literacy of some sort, you either have deep pockets, you're willing to spend your bond money for a while and all that. So it's an essential thing in a country where literacy levels are low, financial literacy levels are low.
• 1:30:04
  Mathematics is a problem. People really do need these things. So I think in some ways, we try to do what we do. So even a podcast like this, I'd say it's important, more so because people just need to learn. I don't think we have enough. We have more entertainment than political content and serious business content. And yes, there's a place and time for everything, but in terms of priority.
• 1:30:33
  business and financial literacy is more important than entertainment, you know. So thank you for, thank you. It feels good. I guess we did something in some way and we'll continue to push. Hopefully we'll catch up sometime later in the year and hopefully there are no surprises, even though I like to say that there's profits in confusion.
• 1:30:59
  At a certain level, confusion that goes out of control is no longer profitable. So, all right. Have a good rest of the evening. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye. Bye.