Latest / Crosswalk Talk: Celebrity Christian Interviews / Science Tells You How the Universe Works, Not Why You Are Here

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Science Tells You How the Universe Works, Not Why You Are Here · Crosswalk Talk: Celebrity Christian Interviews

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Life Audio. Dr.
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  Speaker 2: McGrath, thanks for joining me.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: It's a great pleasure to be here. Thank you for
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: having me.
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  Speaker 2: Alistair McGrath, theologian, historian, apologist, author of the new book,
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  Speaker 2: Rethinking Christianity, A Thoughtful Guide to a Life-Changing Faith. Thomas
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  Speaker 2: Nelson is the publisher. I really enjoyed reading this. You
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  Speaker 2: open the book, Dr. McGrath, by saying, why won't Christianity
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  Speaker 2: stay buried? You say many younger people are reconsidering Christianity.
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  Speaker 2: What are you seeing that convinces you that something has
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  Speaker 2: genuinely shifted in the culture today?
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  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, that's a really good question. I think
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  Speaker 1: the first thing I've noticed is that, you know, I've
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  Speaker 1: been talking to people for 20 years about this whole
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  Speaker 1: question of faith, and I've noticed that the questions have
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  Speaker 1: changed over the last five, ten years. It used to be, look,
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  Speaker 1: how can an intelligent person be a Christian? Or some
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  Speaker 1: kind of question that would reflect Richard Dawkins' critique of Christianity.
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  Speaker 1: But more recently, the questions have changed. They're much more
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  Speaker 1: Can you explain to me how Christianity changes people's lives?
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  Speaker 1: Can you explain to me how I can find stability
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  Speaker 1: and meaning and purpose in life? They're really looking for something,
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  Speaker 1: and they have this deep intuition that Christianity is saying something,
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  Speaker 1: or it's got something about it that really has depth
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  Speaker 1: and potential. So what I'm discovering is that younger people
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  Speaker 1: are looking for something. They're disillusioned with secularism. They're looking
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  Speaker 1: for something that really has stability, depth, and vitality. And
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  Speaker 1: what they're saying is, look, Christianity has been around for
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  Speaker 1: 2,000 years. It must have something going for it. So
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  Speaker 1: explain to us what it is. So I'm seeing a
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  Speaker 1: significant change. People are really interested. And our job, I think,
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  Speaker 1: is really to explain to them why Christianity is such
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  Speaker 1: a life-changing faith.
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  Speaker 2: Essentially, you're saying that the secular culture has failed to
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  Speaker 2: give them what only Christ can give them.
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely. I think people are really feeling disillusioned, disappointed. And
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  Speaker 1: I think that they're saying, well, look, either there is
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  Speaker 1: no meaning and no purpose, so we're really messed up,
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  Speaker 1: or Christianity can help us and we need someone to
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  Speaker 1: explain to us how this happens. And that's what I
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  Speaker 1: think we really need to give more thought to, because
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  Speaker 1: I think many Christians are very, very good at saying,
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  Speaker 1: I can give you 23 very good reasons for saying
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  Speaker 1: God exists. But actually, the question they're asking isn't sort
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  Speaker 1: of rational. It's not intellectual. It's much more, I want
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  Speaker 1: you to show me how Christianity can help give me depth,
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  Speaker 1: can change my lives, can bring meaning to me? And
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  Speaker 1: that's the kind of question which is more about witness
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  Speaker 1: than argument. I think that we need to rethink how
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  Speaker 1: we talk about Christianity and really be able to connect
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  Speaker 1: with these people who are looking for some very significant
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  Speaker 1: life changes and think Christianity might be able to help them.
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  Speaker 2: You say rethink how we talk about Christianity. Give us
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  Speaker 2: an example of what you mean by that, because you're
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  Speaker 2: not saying change the message, you're saying change how it's,
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  Speaker 2: I guess, communicated.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not saying change the message. When I say
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  Speaker 1: rethinking Christianity, we keep the message the same. It's true.
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  Speaker 1: It's trustworthy. But we have to explain to people the
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  Speaker 1: difference it's going to make. Let me tell you a story.
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  Speaker 1: This is a true story. When I used to argue
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  Speaker 1: with new atheists, very often I'd be showing them that
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  Speaker 1: Christianity is true, that it makes intellectual sense. And then
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  Speaker 1: someone said to me, Alistair, you're not connecting with people properly.
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  Speaker 1: The deeper question is, Can you explain to them the
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  Speaker 1: difference that Christianity makes? So what I would do in
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  Speaker 1: future arguing with new atheists is to say, A, Christianity
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  Speaker 1: does make complete intellectual sense, and B, let me tell
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  Speaker 1: you the difference it makes to people's lives. And people
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  Speaker 1: told me that was the thing that really helped them.
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  Speaker 1: They're prepared to accept Christianity makes sense, but they wanted
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  Speaker 1: to know how it connected with their real lives. If
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  Speaker 1: that's right, then our job is to first of all,
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  Speaker 1: show Christianity does make some sort of sense, but then
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  Speaker 1: to witness to the difference that it makes to our lives,
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  Speaker 1: knowing that that is going to connect to these people
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  Speaker 1: who really are looking for something that is deeply satisfying
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  Speaker 1: because they've been so badly disillusioned by secular culture. You
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  Speaker 1: call Christianity a map for the soul. That's how you
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  Speaker 1: describe the faith. What do you mean by that?
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  Speaker 2: And how does Christianity help people make sense of their lives?
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  Speaker 2: Because I think that's the whole book's purpose right there.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. I think
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  Speaker 1: the idea of a map is really helpful, because a
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  Speaker 1: map is what you use when you want to find
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  Speaker 1: your way home. You know, you're looking around this complicated
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  Speaker 1: landscape that we call life, and we're saying, look, what's
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  Speaker 1: all this I see? And how do I find my
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  Speaker 1: way home? And a map will say, look, there's this
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  Speaker 1: and there's this and there's this, and the place you
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  Speaker 1: want to get to is there. So if you go
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  Speaker 1: this way, you'll end up there. And what Christianity is
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  Speaker 1: doing is, in effect, giving us this wonderful vision of
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  Speaker 1: the nature of life, It's saying to us, look, there
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  Speaker 1: are things you need to watch out for, sin, despair,
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  Speaker 1: and things like that, and also things that really could
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  Speaker 1: help you, grace and things like that. But really what
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  Speaker 1: Christianity is saying is two things very, very clear. Number one,
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  Speaker 1: there is a way home. That's very, very important. And secondly,
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  Speaker 1: we don't walk this on our own. Christ is the
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  Speaker 1: good shepherd who's going to accompany us on the way.
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  Speaker 1: So the map, if you like, reassures us that there
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  Speaker 1: is a place called home and we can get there.
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  Speaker 1: But Christ is the one who journeys with us as
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  Speaker 1: we follow that map and helps us to find our
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  Speaker 1: way home, answers our questions, and helps us to deal
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  Speaker 1: with the challenges we're going to face as we journey
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  Speaker 1: on our way home. Do you think the pandemic changed
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  Speaker 1: how people view this issue? Let me ask it a
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  Speaker 1: different way.
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  Speaker 2: Do you think the pandemic played a role in the
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  Speaker 2: renewed interest in Christianity and religion?
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  Speaker 1: I really like that question, and I think it did.
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  Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I think was going on. I
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  Speaker 1: think an awful lot of people who I knew who
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  Speaker 1: were complete secularists and saying, I can cope with life,
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  Speaker 1: I don't need God, suddenly found themselves confronted with human mortality.
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  Speaker 1: In other words, their friends were becoming ill, some of
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  Speaker 1: them were dying. And they were saying, well, actually, I
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  Speaker 1: thought I could cope with this, but actually I can't.
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  Speaker 1: I haven't got a reason to live. I can't face
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  Speaker 1: death with confidence. I think that really was a wake-up
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  Speaker 1: call for a lot of people to do some deep
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  Speaker 1: thinking about life's biggest questions. I think you're right. The
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  Speaker 1: pandemic really made people begin to become much more interested
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  Speaker 1: in what we might call deep questions. Why are we here?
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  Speaker 1: What's the whole point of life? How do we find
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  Speaker 1: our way home to heaven? That sort of thing. I
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  Speaker 1: think it's become much easier to talk about these questions
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  Speaker 1: post-COVID because people are much more receptive to them. They
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  Speaker 1: are they are aware that mortality is a real issue.
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  Speaker 1: And very often they feel, we don't have good answers
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  Speaker 1: to this. We need to think about this. And Christianity
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  Speaker 1: has some very good answers. And happily, you and I
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  Speaker 1: can begin to talk to people about those answers.
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  Speaker 2: I think one thing it did, Dr. McGrath, is it
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  Speaker 2: forced us to sit at home without any distractions in
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  Speaker 2: our life. We, you know, many people watch sports for distraction, watch, well,
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  Speaker 2: they can still watch movies, but so many of the
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  Speaker 2: things that we Tied our lives to work was the
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  Speaker 2: biggest one, I guess. We can no longer do during
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  Speaker 2: those few days or weeks or months, wherever you lived.
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  Speaker 2: And so all of a sudden, you had to think
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  Speaker 2: about the point of life. And all of a sudden,
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  Speaker 2: you really had to ponder what is the meaning of life.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know if you have any thoughts on that,
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  Speaker 2: but I think that's one of the reasons that we
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  Speaker 2: might be seeing this.
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  Speaker 1: It's just a theory. No, it's a good point. Because
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  Speaker 1: if we say that people are beginning to become aware
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  Speaker 1: of mortality and They are isolated. They haven't got access
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  Speaker 1: to easy resources. They are going to begin to ponder
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  Speaker 1: these questions and think about them. So the fact that
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  Speaker 1: they're on their own thinking about these questions actually in
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  Speaker 1: one sense is quite good because it means that when
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  Speaker 1: they can, they're going to start looking for answers. Because
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  Speaker 1: once the pandemic disappeared, actually people were still thinking about
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  Speaker 1: these deep questions. And certainly one of the things I've
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  Speaker 1: noticed in talking about Christianity recently, especially younger people, is
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  Speaker 1: they really feel that if they're going to flourish in life,
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  Speaker 1: They need a viable worldview, a sort of way of
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  Speaker 1: looking at the world that is not going to fall
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  Speaker 1: to pieces in five or ten years, but it's going
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  Speaker 1: to stay with them for the rest of their lives.
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  Speaker 1: So they're looking for something that's stable and secure. And
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  Speaker 1: I often think of Christ's wonderful parable of the house
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  Speaker 1: built on the rock in Matthew chapter 7, you know,
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  Speaker 1: because Christ is saying, look, you need to find a stable,
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  Speaker 1: safe place to build your life on. And it's not
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  Speaker 1: going to be in the place where the winds blow
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  Speaker 1: and where everything's unstable. You need to build your house
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  Speaker 1: on the rock of the gospel. I think that's a
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  Speaker 1: message we need to get people out, that Christianity says
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  Speaker 1: some wonderful things, but it also offers us a secure
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  Speaker 1: base on which we can build our lives and live
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  Speaker 1: confidently in this new faith. Amen to that.
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  Speaker 2: Do you have a go-to argument for the existence of
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  Speaker 2: God when you're sitting beside somebody on an airplane or
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  Speaker 2: at a restaurant? Do you have an argument that you
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  Speaker 2: go to?
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  Speaker 1: The answer is, it does come up. It's not the
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  Speaker 1: first thing people talk about, but very often they will
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  Speaker 1: raise that kind of question. And sometimes they'll do it
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  Speaker 1: in a rather aggressive way. Hey, how on earth can
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  Speaker 1: you answer this question about God's existence? Sometimes it's much
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  Speaker 1: more gentle and exploratory. Can you help me think this through?
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  Speaker 1: And what I will say is, look, I can't prove
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  Speaker 1: God exists. What I can do is give you some
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  Speaker 1: very good reasons for thinking God exists. And the final
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  Speaker 1: stage of this process is reaching out and saying, God,
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  Speaker 1: if you are there, and I think you might be,
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  Speaker 1: please reveal yourself. Please speak to me. Please do something
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  Speaker 1: that helps me take that final step. And I think
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  Speaker 1: really people are these days much more inclined to take
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  Speaker 1: the idea of God seriously. The critical thing is to
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  Speaker 1: help them understand the difference that believing in God is
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  Speaker 1: going to make to their lives and how it gives
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  Speaker 1: them a fresh sense of identity and purpose and And really,
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  Speaker 1: it's going to be something that changes their lives for
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  Speaker 1: the better. And we can do that because that's what
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  Speaker 1: witnessing is all about.
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  Speaker 2: Some people see Christianity as outdated, as irrelevant. How do
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  Speaker 2: you respond to that argument?
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  Speaker 1: Well, I think people are very, very concerned about things
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  Speaker 1: being outdated and irrelevant. And we live in an age
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  Speaker 1: of very rapid cultural change. All people are finding is
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  Speaker 1: the things that they thought were absolutely stable and secure
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  Speaker 1: five years ago have gone. That's the rapid change of pace.
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  Speaker 1: My argument is that the fact that Christianity is 2,000
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  Speaker 1: years old is not an argument for its irrelevance. It's
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  Speaker 1: an argument for its continuing relevance over 2,000 years of history.
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  Speaker 1: And therefore, when I'm talking to people, I'm saying, look,
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  Speaker 1: you're presenting me with a rival worldview, which is about
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  Speaker 1: 20 years old. Is that still going to be here
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  Speaker 1: in 50 years' time?
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  Speaker 2: No.
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  Speaker 1: Christianity has this historical depth. It's deeply rooted in history
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  Speaker 1: and And that means it's there because it continues to
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  Speaker 1: be relevant. You say it's irrelevant. That's because you have
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  Speaker 1: not yet discovered its relevance. Let me help you try
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  Speaker 1: and discover that because I think that will change your
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  Speaker 1: view of things.
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  Speaker 2: Is that what you mean when you say, why won't
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  Speaker 2: Christianity stay buried? Is that what you mean when you
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  Speaker 2: pose that question?
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  Speaker 1: That's right. Basically, that there is something about Christianity which
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  Speaker 1: people need to appreciate and And once they appreciate it, say,
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  Speaker 1: I can see why it's still there. I can see
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  Speaker 1: why it actually might speak to me. And you're ready
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  Speaker 1: to take them on the next stage of their journey
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  Speaker 1: as they begin to explore how this living faith might
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  Speaker 1: transform their lives.
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  Speaker 2: There's been a lot of debate in the United Kingdom
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  Speaker 2: where you live about whether that nation is truly experiencing
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  Speaker 2: a quiet revival. There was some debate and controversy over
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  Speaker 2: some data in the past year. What have you seen?
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  Speaker 2: What do you think about this issue? Is something going
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  Speaker 2: on in the U.K.
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  Speaker 1: Something is going on, but it's not what I'd call
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  Speaker 1: a revival yet. What I'm seeing is not so much
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  Speaker 1: a massive increase in attendance at church. What I'm seeing
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  Speaker 1: are two things. One is much greater interest in talking
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  Speaker 1: about Christianity, much less hostility towards Christianity. If you like,
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  Speaker 1: there's an increased receptivity, and people are very often coming
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  Speaker 1: to church because they feel this might speak to them.
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  Speaker 1: And here in Britain during COVID, we had a very
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  Speaker 1: interesting rise in online attendance at church. People couldn't go physically,
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  Speaker 1: so they'd watch online. A lot of people are still
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  Speaker 1: doing that because they don't actually feel safe yet about
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  Speaker 1: going to church, but they're listening to sermons, they're thinking
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  Speaker 1: about things, and at some point they're going to feel
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  Speaker 1: ready to begin to go to church. So I think
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  Speaker 1: there is something going on. There's a lessening hostility, there's
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  Speaker 1: growing interest, And I think that those of us who
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  Speaker 1: are Christian believers need to be aware this is happening
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  Speaker 1: and work out whether we might be able to help
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  Speaker 1: people who are in this kind of situation to go
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  Speaker 1: deeper into the faith and also perhaps take them to
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  Speaker 1: church and see if they might find that helpful in
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  Speaker 1: their own journey of faith.
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  Speaker 2: You've spent much of your career, Dr. McGrath, challenging the
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  Speaker 2: idea that science and Christianity are enemies. Why do you
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  Speaker 2: believe they're not only compatible, but they also complement one another?
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  Speaker 1: That's a good question. When I was a teenager, a scientist,
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  Speaker 1: I had this idea that science and Christianity were enemies.
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  Speaker 1: You couldn't be a scientist and a Christian. So one
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  Speaker 1: of the reasons I became an atheist as a teenager
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  Speaker 1: was this deep belief, which was very widespread in Western
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: culture at that time, that science and religion couldn't talk
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  Speaker 1: to each other. They were opposed to each other. Of course,
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  Speaker 1: I was a scientist. I went to Oxford University to
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  Speaker 1: study the biomedical sciences and I began to realize it
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  Speaker 1: was not that simple. Someone like Albert Einstein, for example,
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  Speaker 1: who I studied in depth when I was doing chemistry,
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  Speaker 1: was very, very clear that science tells us how our
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  Speaker 1: universe functions. It does not teach us anything about moral values,
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  Speaker 1: and it has nothing to say to us about meaning.
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  Speaker 1: Einstein simply says, if you're looking for moral value, meaning,
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  Speaker 1: or significance, you have to look beyond science. So what
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  Speaker 1: I would say is Christianity does not go against science.
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  Speaker 1: It goes beyond science. It's able to answer those really
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  Speaker 1: deep questions that science is aware of but can't answer
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  Speaker 1: using its own resources. We were talking about COVID a
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  Speaker 1: moment ago, weren't we? And, you know, during COVID, I
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: used a thermometer to take my temperature all the time because,
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: you know, that might indicate whether I've got COVID or not.
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  Speaker 1: But supposing I were to say something like this, you know,
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  Speaker 1: That thermometer works so well. I'll use that for everything. Like,
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  Speaker 1: for example, what's the meaning of life or things like that.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, a tool is developed for a purpose. And
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  Speaker 1: when you start using a tool for something it wasn't
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  Speaker 1: designed for, it gives you completely nonsensical results. Science is
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  Speaker 1: designed to tell us how our universe functions. We need
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  Speaker 1: a different toolkit to answer deep questions of meaning and value,
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  Speaker 1: And Christianity is excellent at giving very robust and persuasive
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  Speaker 1: answers to those deep questions of significance and meaning. So
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  Speaker 1: for me, science and religion are like two lenses in
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  Speaker 1: a set of spectacles. They let you see stereoscopically. They
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: give you depth to the way you look at the world.
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  Speaker 1: So for me, there isn't a tension. There's a difference.
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  Speaker 1: And that's not the same thing.
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  Speaker 2: As we kind of wrap up here, Dr. McGrath, let's
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  Speaker 2: talk again about your book, Rethinking Christianity, A Thoughtful Guide
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: to a Life-Changing Faith.
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  Speaker 1: Who is this for?
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  Speaker 2: What's the target audience? Is it skeptics, Christians, both?
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  Speaker 1: I think it really has two audiences. I think I'm
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  Speaker 1: trying to reassure Christians, especially younger Christians, that there's been
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  Speaker 1: a massive cultural change and Christianity is back on the agenda.
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  Speaker 1: And I want to reassure them that that the culture's changed,
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  Speaker 1: but Christianity has not changed, and it really is something
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  Speaker 1: they can immerse themselves in with confidence and be able
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  Speaker 1: to answer the questions our culture's asking. So it's reassuring Christians.
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  Speaker 1: But secondly, it's also a book that's written for people
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  Speaker 1: who are thinking about Christianity and are wondering.
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  Speaker 2: What is this stuff?
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  Speaker 1: Does it still make sense? And what might it say
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  Speaker 1: to me? And so it's a very carefully written book.
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  Speaker 1: It's very conversational. It's very warm. It's very empathic. I
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: understand the kind of issues they may be facing. But
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  Speaker 1: it's basically saying to my readers who are thinking about Christianity,
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  Speaker 1: there's something really deep and significant here. Let me just
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: walk you through it and see if you can pick
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: up what is so significant. And maybe that might help
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  Speaker 1: you in thinking where you might go next. So Reassuring
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  Speaker 1: Christians is and drawing those from outside the faith into
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  Speaker 1: Christianity and helping them see the big difference they could
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  Speaker 1: make if and when they're ready to do so.
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: If you liked today's episode, please subscribe and leave a
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: five-star review. That's how we help more people just like
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: you find the show. A big thanks to the team
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the podcast.
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: If you go to lifeaudio.com, you will find dozens of
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: other faith-centered podcasts in their network.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: See you next time.