Latest / The Splitting Atoms Podcast / Ep 9 | The Power of Making Space with Catherine O'Hagan

Transcript

Ep 9 | The Power of Making Space with Catherine O'Hagan · The Splitting Atoms Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: I remember going to my boss and saying, I would really like to take this on, and could I do it in my own way?
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: How does learning to make space for ourselves eventually allow us to make space for others?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: We spend a lot of time talking about opportunity, getting a seat at the table, getting in the room, having someone take a chance on us.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: What we don't talk about nearly as often is what happens once we're there.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: How do we build confidence?
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: How do we contribute?
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: And how do we create value?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: And how do we learn to take up the space we need to truly make the most of the opportunities in front of us?
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: In my conversation with Kathy O'Hagen of ES Fox, we explore a career built on doing exactly that.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: From her early years on the golf course to stepping into opportunities that stretched her beyond her comfort zone to helping create meaningful pathways for others through Indigenous relations, community partnerships, and cultural awareness initiatives, Kathy's story is a reminder that opportunity alone is never enough.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: What matters is what we choose to do with it once we're in the room.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Join me now as I Split Atoms with Kathy O'Hagan.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Kathy, my friend, into the Splitting Atoms podcast studio.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: We've had many a conversation, but uh we've never done one under this many lights or in a room like this before.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: So am I, and thank you so much for inviting me.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I'm so happy to participate uh in this fantastic podcast.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be fun.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: We always have lots of laughs.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: My uh Chelsea and Taginder, my producer and my PA, they put a clock up behind the camera to make sure I stay on time because you know me.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm no no uh fear of chatting.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so, especially when people such as yourself come in, who I have a history with, and we have great chats every time we're together.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: They know they they put that camera, that phone there with the little timer to say, Caitlin, you stay on task here, girlfriend.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I will stay on task.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: So before we jump in on our conversation, could you give a high-level 60-second rundown of ES Fox, the organization you work for, as well as your role within it?
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh ES Fox Limited is an Ontario-based industrial contractor.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it was founded in 1934, 92 years ago, and it's multi-generational.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: So uh Spencer Fox, who is the CEO and president currently, it was his grandfather that started the company with one truck.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we're very proud of that fact, how it's how it's grown.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we deliver now um construction, fabrication, maintenance uh to a wide range of sectors.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: And my sector that I've worked in for the last 20 years with ES Fox has been the nuclear sector.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that's uh more what I'll be talking about today, is my role within that sector.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's how our worlds collided, you and I.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: We nuclear nuclear friends.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you have eight years, I guess, to start really planning out a 100th year celebration.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, the believe me, I think we are.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: And our 90th year, um actually, Spencer uh started a campaign, and he every month he gave$90,000 out to a different charity or organization within the the places we work and in the Niagara Falls area, which was amazing.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I got to hand out some of that.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's always fun.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: I saw some of those handouts.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them uh women in nuclear was one, a lot of obviously community and things like that.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think clinics, medical clinics, and I always find that about ES Fox.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: You guys are always showing up in those ways to support.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I think that's great.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, for so who knows then for the 100th, he's Spencer set a little bit of a precedent for himself there.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: He we stay tuned.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: No pressure, no pressure.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and it's and it's funny too because he's very modest and he does not like the uh press really from that.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: He does it because he says it's the right thing to do.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: So you can see why I enjoy working for the company so much.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's a genuine uh thought and feeling and care behind it.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's always so funny.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people don't like the press behind it, but sometimes I I like the the story behind it because number one, it makes other people aware of some organizations that are needing support and it gives them a spotlight.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you guys have always done that in the way where you really do push the spotlight onto the receiver, not the fact that look at us and what we're doing.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: But also I think it sets a tone for the expectations and the standards that the industry should be following.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like definitely.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: If we can do this, so too should be you.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that I don't know if that made sense, but you should too.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Chelsea, cut that part.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: No, but so I always loved that about it.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: And your role within the organization.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: It started, well, 20 years ago, um, I am I live in Bruce County, had never been on the Bruce Power site at all.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um my degree was in sociology from the University of Western Ontario.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: I had done a lot of community living, uh, community and social services, Canada pension, different things like that.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't really know much about construction or the nuclear industry.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so I arrived on site uh with map in hand to try and find where I was to go.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: Didn't realize it was like a little city in there.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the first day on a on a university campus.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: And um when I started, it was uh the beginning of Bruce's uh one and two restart.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: So everything was just turning over to go to that major project.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I was hired and was the administrative assistant to the vice president of nuclear, which was great.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: But and the best thing about it was it wasn't just one job, it was pretty much every job.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: So anything that that VP is doing on that site, I'm involved and a part of and learning.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I do remember the one of the first meetings that we had, uh it was a project meeting, and I went into the meeting and uh my boss had said, uh, Kathy, can you take the minutes?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh, sure.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not particularly good at minute taking at any point, let alone when it seemed like they were speaking a foreign language with the acronyms and uh just the the general construction talk, nuclear talk acronyms.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: And oh my goodness, I was uh I was a I was uh fish out of water a little bit.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: You should have seen my notes anyway.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: I had to go to quite a few people and uh try to figure them out.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: But uh then I got a hold of uh all the material I could read and a lot of help from from colleagues and co-workers, and I uh I stuck with that.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I I honestly will say, still never one of my strong suits, the minute taking.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Do you don't you find I've been in so many rooms where because I'm I'm I hate to say it, but I'm the only woman in the room.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: They think, and I have the worst handwriting.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: The I lose focus so easily.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: You need someone really focused on the notes.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm too busy joining in talking or listening or whatever.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a horrible note-taker, but they just assume we'd we'd be good now because we could just press a little button and record it.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Technology embrace that technology.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: I just let the cats do my note-taking now.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we we pray for the best.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so you and I, we were in the nuclear sector, we love the nuclear sector.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: We have very we have quite a few common friends, of course.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: But we also have a love of golf that we share.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Now, where did that start for you?
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: Mine started a little later in life.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: I want to say once I entered nuclear and started going to tournaments and things like that, I thought I should maybe get get good at this.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: I like this.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: What about you?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: I uh I grew up in London, Ontario.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was 11 years old, my dad thought that we should become a golfing family.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: It was something we could all do together.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I really wasn't a big fan because I didn't know any of my girlfriends that played golf.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Really wasn't the cool thing to do.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we signed up and we played at um Highland Golf and Country Club.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: So they had regular junior lessons every Monday morning.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, my dad says, off you go, Kath, you're going to junior lessons.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: And there must have been 40 boys and there was one other girl.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I met so the two of us.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what kept me going.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then we we uh we benefited from lessons and tournaments because we were the only two girls, and we did have a lot of fun.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then we did actually realize that it really wasn't a terrible disadvantage to be the only two girls with 40 boys in a program.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we embraced that, played as much as we could, and I ended up actually working in the pro shop af after that.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: I played in quite a few Ontario junior events and things like that.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: So working in the pro shop, you're you can get time off for tournaments.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a a win win for me.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: But back in back in those days, back in this would be 70 uh 71, I joined.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I was 16, I started working in the pro shop.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it really was uh very much a man's world, a man's game, a man's golf club.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was hired to work in the pro shop, really because the pro said, I'm not moving much women's clothing.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think I need another woman in the pro shop to move that clothing.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh because I had played there, knew a lot of the people, was a member, uh, he hired me.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a lot of pushback from the men because that Saturday and Sunday morning, that's just men's men's day and Wednesday afternoon back then.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so you had to navigate on um still being yourself, not trying to be anybody else, but uh getting along and learning the job, being good at the job, and then having having it be seamless, that it's not a woman in the pro shop, that it's uh the pro shop.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good effective worker in the pro shop.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's like so many environments in life where you want it to be authentic to yourself, but you also have to understand how to swim in that pond.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many things, uh there's so many arenas in our life where yeah it'd be great to go in and just fully be yourself and do all those things.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: But you still have to know the lay of the land and be a um uh intuitive enough or maybe uh adept enough to step into that and bring yourself to that.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'll never forget one of my mentors in life is um Lee Cockerell, who was the former executive vice president of Walt Disney World, of course.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think there's been an episode yet where I haven't not mentioned Disney.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: I would I would expect nothing less.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: I should work on that.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: But he tells the story of yeah, he started working for the Marriott family for Bill Marriott.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: And he was managing one of their restaurants or cafes or something like that.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and Bill Marriott had come in.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time, it's it's like the time of the Beatles and you know, the longer, the guys longer haircuts and all these things.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so Lee had had a longer haircut, but it was a conservative type leadership team and and executive.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so Bill had come in and said, Are you the manager of this restaurant?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: And Lee said, Yes, I am.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so Bill grabbed his hair and he said, Well, why don't you get a haircut and look like it?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm not saying that needs to be the whole lesson.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: No, but I always have remembered that as sometimes you don't follow fully the trends or the fads or the things like that, or even maybe who you fully want to be.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you had walked into that pro shop thinking, well, I'm just gonna be myself and they can adapt.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes that adaptation has to go the other way.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a skill set to be able to step into that.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, definitely.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think you have to do exactly what was expected back then and and you know, in in Lee's story there, but there's something to be said about that.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that it comes down to competency and and learning and knowing knowing what you're doing.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think we have to work a little harder sometimes to be that much better so that we're not questioned uh to say, well, she doesn't know the job and she's out.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: So and uh generally I find if you can if you can be kind of laugh at yourself a bit, enjoy the journey along the way, make good relationships and learn the job well.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think success is there whether you're uh female in a a man's role.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's also something to be said about you were invited in, as you mentioned, because you were female and he wanted to sell female clothes.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: So really you were brought in because he wanted a female.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Who cares?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: Once you're in the space, uh I try not to spend a lot of time thinking of why I got invited to a table, to a room, to a meeting, to whatever it is.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: I really like to focus on, well, I'm here now.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: So if you were invited in for one reason, I mean you took advantage in so many other ways.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: And not only were you developing skill sets because you I know there was some stuff in between there, but you eventually went from the pro shop to the role you're in now where um it used to be even more so, male dominated the construction sector and things like that.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure you've been in many a room and you're the only one that has female.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a lesson for anyone that sometimes number one, being the only one of anything, whether it's your gender, your race, whatever it is, you can find advantage.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: But also understanding the context of I'm here now and what am I gonna do with it and how do I make the most of it.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: And really uh pour myself into the situation in the ways that that serve me best.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you surprise yourself in taking on duties within uh a certain job that you never thought you do.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: You never thought you were qualified for, you never thought that you'd do.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: And if there's an opportunity and you take a chance to learn, it's never going to go against you.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's always going to be on the plus side for you, for the company, uh, and again for just uh moving forward and taking some risks because you never know when those opportunities are going to show themselves to you.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: And how did did the the role at ES Fox did that come from proximity?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: How did you uh enter into kind of the nuclear space?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the nuclear space was definitely proximity and and at that point um an interest in nuclear.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: And at that time it wasn't as uh popular, I can say, as it is now.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: But where I lived uh with Bruce Power and the surrounding areas, Southampton, Port Elgin, King Carden, and Bruce County, we really do depend on that industry and that uh and and Bruce Power itself for for the generous uh donations, the support for the community that they give, uh, plus the jobs.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the that bounces over to um businesses on our main street and how how they can survive.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I really was starting, and a lot of a lot of friends worked there, and I really was uh was interested.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: And someone had said, well, and I honestly assume that most people just worked at Bruce Power.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone worked at Bruce Power.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't until I realized that no, there were a lot of supplier companies there that go in and do a a lot of the projects, the work, um, hire the trades themselves.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that became interesting to me.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, people sometimes think it's just this this one or two conglomerates that's that hire us all.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: But there really is, there's a whole new world.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, not only in who can hire you, but what they can hire you for.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: The the job diversity is insane.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like whatever you really want to do, there's probably a fit for you.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Vox hires, I would say, most of the trades, uh, all the time, hundreds of trades on site, uh, both Bruce Power and Pickering and Darlington, uh, our whole nuclear services site.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so along with all of those jobs that are the skilled trades jobs that we're hiring in all the different uh fields, you need support people for those jobs.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so people don't think about the health and safety role, the QA role, the environment uh environmental role, uh my role, which kind of evolved probably back 10 years ago, the Indigenous relations role.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so if we back up a little bit, so you go through this experience of working in the pro shop of I'm sure it wasn't always easy.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure there were some men that did not want you in there all time very much.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: You had to get your elbows up and and stand your ground and get comfortable in that setting, which that to me is I think everyone should have to go through that just for not only developing a little bit of a thick skin, yes, but also starting to to kind of build up your ability and your comfort at pushing back.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: You had to one of the one of the things you had to do because there was a dress code, um, the men, if they wore shorts, the shorts had to be measured a certain uh portion above the knee.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: The women as well, but the women always followed the rules.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: It was the men that weren't didn't follow the rules so much.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Their shorts were too short?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Shorts.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: But if they're shorts, if they were shorts, they have to wear knee socks.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of a bad look, but it was the dress coat.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I they would send me out uh at 6 30 in the morning to the first tee if a member had uh was out there with shorts and shorter socks and sell him a pair of knee socks from the pro shop so that he could play.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that was uh interesting times.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: But it got to be funny.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure some people You should have just worn a shirt that said pull up your socks.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: You can do better.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: You were the original.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: Should have had the isotope socks.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: I would have been way ahead of the game.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: There we go.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Looking back.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's incredible that socks were um Yes, had to be.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm picturing it.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't look good.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Wasn't a good look.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now it looks like you know, people show up on bachelor parties and they wear the costumes or the quite different now.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so you go from that and you eventually find yourself in a career where once again, you're you're having to learn very quickly as you go.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: You maybe are one of the only or very few women in the room.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: You're having to really debunk, I'm sure, some some stereotypes as someone who didn't know the lingo lingo.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And good on you, because the abbreviations in our sector deserve their own kind of course.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: They definitely do.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: You could do a course on abbreviations and acronyms in the nuclear industry.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: So when we look back to your early days at ES Fox, what was taking on that role like for you?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and what did it really feel like for you to take on that role and excel within it as someone who didn't have the background in nuclear or technology to now be in that space?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, everything was new.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: There was nothing that I had experienced before or knew before.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I took it on as a real chance to learn.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: But that was not, that was probably a lot on my own time and interest, only because I didn't want to be shown as not knowing anything.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: I that that was uncomfortable to me.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like that feeling.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I would study everything that that I was given.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: I would take every course I could.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: I was taking courses online to learn more about the construction industry, about the nuclear industry.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: I would go to meetings that I really didn't need to go to, but I wanted the information.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to see how things ran, how how things worked, and how I could be a part of it.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I am fortunate for all of that learning opportunity that I did do.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you do think, what am I doing?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't, this is not my uh forte.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I should go back to something I know that I'm doing.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: But it builds.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: It builds.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you keep on doing that, it builds.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then you there is a point where you do feel confident in a role, and then you can start branching out.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Don't you also find that when people see you doing that and taking on that initiative?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because some people are happy to coast in their jobs, and there's nothing wrong with that because we each want what we want out of our careers.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: But other people see you taking that initiative, learning rapidly, stepping beyond your role to really absorb as much as you could within that space.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: It starts building a trust in you so that later in career, if you want to take the initiative to step beyond your role or apply to something else, or say, hey, why don't we try this?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: They have seen that initiative and there's that almost trust that you can get it done because you're just someone who does get things done.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: And and treating people with respect, I think, is a huge part in that uh learning process because you are depending on other people to teach you.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: They're taking time out of their day to help you along, and you have to respect them and and the time that's given.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's all part in the giving back when you know you've been helped along the way and encouraged.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think you do need um encouragement from an employer that allows you to do that.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: And back when I started, the suppliers were hired project to project.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: So The one and two restart at one point was it'll be a three-year project.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I really never knew, well, with this ends, oh, what am I going to do?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I really thought the more I learnt, I'll make myself a little, little bit irreplaceable, and that I know more so that when the next project comes along, that uh I could carry on.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's looking ahead, scouting out the lay of the land and learning as much as you can.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really picking yourself because no one is coming to you saying, hey, I think you should do this so you have job security, or I think you should do this so that you're more capable in X, Y, Z ways.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it, I mean, it also, you brought in the word respect of the person, but it's also a respect for different roles and what they bring to the table and how they all work as a cog in this machine that has to fire on all cylinders.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so eventually, this really paid off for you because during your time, as you were doing this development and really proving to yourself and to others that you were a highly capable and competent woman in that space, there were some changes happening within our industry, especially at the utilities level, Bruce Power and OPG, on our relationship with Indigenous communities and how our industry approached uh relationships with Indigenous communities.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about that, the changes you saw and how that was a pivotal moment within your career, 2015, 2016, it did present itself in that all of a sudden the the industry, and I'll say that Bruce Power and OPG are leaders in that, started asking the supplier companies, what do you have for an Indigenous relations program?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Do you belong to Canadian Council of Indigenous Business?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Do you engage with communities?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Do you hire uh Indigenous people?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: We have in in uh Bruce Power area, we have the Sawn community, and it's right there.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of the people thought, what is this?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: How did this pop up?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: We've never been asked this before.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in my uh other interests, I've I had done previously the blanket exercise, which is an incredible exercise that's put on by Indigenous company with indigenous people, that is an emotional history lesson where they take blankets away where you're taking the rights away of Indigenous, and they use residential schools, they use um murdered and missing women, and you just see what happened.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's a re it's a very powerful experience.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: I had done that years ago.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: So what is so they what is the activity that they actually do, though?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: You stand, you put a um everyone goes and you bring a blanket, and everyone is one has a blanket and they say, We're all here, and then they they start telling the history, and it starts out good with the uh colonies coming saying, We'll work together and we'll honor treaties, and then the treaties start being broken, and and uh the uh we are kicking indigenous people off their land and the residential schools, and so everyone takes their blankets away as all that happens, and you're only left with a few blankets and and devastation.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: I see.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then they do have hope because it starts to come back, because that's the wonderful thing uh about uh the indigenous people is the resilience, and I think we can see that right now.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I was always interested in the truth and reconciliation report.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: I read the 90 um uh 93 calls to action, and I I was interested in that.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: So as soon as I saw that, I thought that is exactly what I want to do.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: And no one had really taken it up.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because so at this time you're working at ES Fox, yeah, and you can see that there's starting to be this demand for indigenous relations and understanding and more uh reconciliation efforts happening.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so this wasn't a role, though, that ES Fox highlighted.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: No, and not a lot of companies did have that role at that time.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I I remember going to my boss and saying, I would really like to take this on.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: And could I do it in my own way?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm not going to do it in that if you say, oh, you just have to do this and sign up for this uh membership, uh, you'll get points on uh on your bid submission.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I really want to.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's something I like to do.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm right there.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: I I have some relationships already, and I want to learn more.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: I it was exactly what I wanted to do.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: And thank goodness my boss had said yes.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: And Bruce Power really took a wonderful lead, and that's where we met a lot with the IRSN.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm see, I'm talking in acronyms now, too.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: Our listeners are gonna be like, what's the IRSN?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: Indigenous Relations Suppliers Network.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it was trying to get the suppliers together to navigate this because it was so brand new.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we did get, and we still have a lot of core people that we know from that group that we were all passionate to learn more and we wanted to be a part of it.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: And but how do we get it off the ground?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and we went on tours with the IRSN to the communities, we had community dinners, we had job fairs, we were trying to look at ways of employment, um all of it.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: All of it.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it was it was a wonderful growing experience.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I I when I said I would wanted to take that on, I I was a part of the IRSN.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was learning, building relationships, and kind of working on my own, I must say.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: My boss would would um attend some events, but he was all over the uh between head office and Pickering Darlington and Bruce Power.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I really was the person that was attended all events on the ground, the boots on the ground and loved every minute of it.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I really was able to create a space and a job while I was still doing the administrative assistance job, but uh this was really my, I felt like my job that I had been looking for uh for a long time.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: I always say, I I feel like I have the career now that I always wanted, but I'm I'm 65, so it's sometimes I get tired.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: You you gotta go back to the beginning and get it right from the gate.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it took me a while.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: That I love that story though, because think of all the elements that had to come into play for you to achieve what you just said, you know, the the career that you always wanted.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, when we think back to what we talked about when you first entered ESF, your ability to essentially pick yourself and start learning and growing and adapting and never saying, well, that's outside of my scope.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna do that.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: You really kind of took it by the bit and ran with it.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: But then we look at the fact that there were these changes in how major corporations like Bruce Power and Ontario Power Generation were viewing uh relationships with indigenous communities and and culture.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: And they triggered that.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and the IRSN, IRSN really was an amazing.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was like this little group of us came together.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: And Bruce Power, kudos to them for taking that initiative and creating that space where we could ask questions without fear of putting our foot in our mouths or exactly.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: We really could just show up so authentically saying we want to learn and we're gonna get some things wrong.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: But please help us make them more right.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then you look at the fact that you're at ES Fox, an organization who does show up very genuinely.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because without that, if it was maybe a culture where they wanted a checkbox, quick and dirty, yeah, just get it done so we get the bid.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: But that's never been them.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: They it's just not the the heart of that organization.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then the fact that that you had had some experiences that this was already something passionate.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like those are four major things that the work culture was there in the organization, your ambition and your ability to take up that space and expand into new things, the cultural shift with reconciliation, and then the fact that it was something you were passionate about and wanted to learn more.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: It takes a lot to those factors.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I I do have it, I have told people this funny story, and I hope B.S.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Fox finds it funny too.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I had been working on it for quite a long time.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then it really, thank goodness, the Indigenous relations factor became a very important role, not just something a company could just do on the side.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: You had to prove that that you had a good, solid program, that you were teaching cultural awareness, that your uh uh employees knew of the history and that you promoted inclusion.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it it became way more than just a uh something to think about.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: So then that started to be, I started to receive calls, or my boss started to receive calls and say, well, we're we've been asked for for this.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Do we even have an Indigenous program?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then my boss said, Well, yes, yes, we do.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Kathy's been been been building relationships.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we did do it the right way, and that we didn't come in all overhead.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's the mistake I think a lot of companies make.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: We're not asked to come in and and and fix and just say, we know and we're we're going to help.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Help is wonderful.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: But the part of the truth in reconciliation is the truth part, is we've got to learn so much uh first before we even know what is best to help with.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that has to be directed from community to us, not the other way around.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it takes years to kind of build relationships.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I had through a lot of these programs, had I've had built some relationships, had had learnt a lot.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I was able to um report back and say, we are doing this.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is what the community would like.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: And let's, and I would take people, go to a powwow, go to different events.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's how how we would do it.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that went on for a while, and then it it was we had documents and we had a um Spencer has a statement of commitment, and a we have an Indigenous policy, and I had some, I have some colleagues that I I work with closely, and we got that, and Spencer signed it, and all of a sudden we really do have a uh Indigenous role, indigenous program.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I was out at a corporate dinner in Niagara Falls, and it was a big long table, and the CFO at the time leaned over to me and said, So, Kathy, when was this Indigenous relations coordinator job posted?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: And when did you apply for it?
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the whole I felt like the whole table was looking at me, and I thought, well, this could go a couple of ways.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, actually, it was never posted.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's been created from the nuclear side, from uh from myself, from um other colleagues, from just doing the work.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I looked at the the vice president and the other people that were sitting at the table, and they smiled and said, fantastic.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: We love that you did that.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought I I knew it would probably go that way, but it was very funny to to come out with that and say it wasn't a posted job.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: I created it, developed it, implemented it.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I am proud of that fact because now it it's a it's uh a staple with ES Fox.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we have so many people knowledgeable, so many people on board.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: We have an Indigenous relations circle team.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um we have um a new business development director, and he is very excited with our CCIB pair program and to reach to gold status, we have bronze status, and that just means you have a real good action plan and you report on it, and it runs internally.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it should be able to run without me.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's the goal, and to hire more indigenous people.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I would like someone indigenous in this role to uh to um carry it forward.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Carry it forward.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say take my place, but we'll say carry it forward.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds better.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: I like build upon the legacy of which it's started.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's so interesting to me because could you imagine if you had thought of this as, well, that's not my job.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's outside of my scope, that's not in my job description.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: I I shouldn't have to do that unless they're gonna compensate me for it.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: Or there can be that attitude of but it just imagine your eagerness to say, well, I know it's not part of my job, but it could be.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: I guess you made it your job.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I really had no idea how how it was going to go, but I just knew I was very fortunate to be working for a company that was allowing me to actually go on a personal journey of learning and and healing for the whole country.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I I was happy to do that and wasn't sure it would end up in this place, but I'm very happy it did.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's such now we see it happening in a more and more and more authentic way across our industry.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like we were talking about when you were working at that pro shop where you were invited in because you were a woman, but you never really questioned or resented why you were invited in.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: You just were like, well, I'm here now and let's let's have some fun with this.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's the same as I think sometimes we have these discussions, not just for Indigenous relations, but a lot of things with DEI initiatives or different maybe social things that happen of the intention behind them.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: So when we first started seeing some of these things happening in our industry, there were some companies who said, okay, well, we have to do this because it's going to get us a bid.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: So let's do it.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I've always looked at that.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Who cares what the precursor was?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: If it is starting to change the behaviors and the thoughts and the intentions, even if it was, and I will never say just for show, because there were so many that it was not just for show.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like I think we're all adults in the room.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: We know some people do it strictly for the business advantages.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: But if that was the precursor, look where it has led us.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: So why do we question what that precursor was or its intention if the impact is exactly what we want it to be?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, we've come.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: I uh we've come so far uh as an industry uh in be having more meaningful uh relationships and doing it the right way rather than the checkbox.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think we can see the checkbox is not working anymore.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's uh it's a full action plan and uh and it's it's to everyone's benefit in in the workplace where nuclear is soaring and there's going to be so much growth, economic growth, economic opportunities for everyone.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: I believe the indigenous population has a fastest growing youth population.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: We need youth, we need them in the skilled trades, we need them in the support roles, engineers, uh, lawyers.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Marketing.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: Marketing exemples, yes.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: But you need you need more every time uh a new project is being looked at.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's the resources we're we're looking at that we need.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: And we we are also trying to um bring some economic opportunities to the communities and employment so it seems like a win-win.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: So so to concentrate on training and scholarships and filling in the gaps for Indigenous youth to get into this industry is extremely exciting.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: And to to shift the focus back to you just a little bit here, I'm a really firm believer that the best way to start making space for others is to first and foremost really understand and be comfortable making that space for yourself.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: So when you look back through your career of the Pro Shop, of the early days at ES Fox, where you were having to learn and really expand into that role, and now how it has shifted into you are influential throughout our industry in making space and setting a standard for what that looks like, not with just indigenous in um initiatives, but I think of how you even greet women who are entering the industry and how when I first started 10 years ago, it was very different than it is even now.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like I remember being one of maybe 40 out of 400 up at the Canadian Nuclear Association conference.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: And now when we go up, it's it's changing.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: But you are one of the people who was always friendly, inviting, welcoming.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: You made space for people like me who were coming in.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we look at a lot of the social impact and things that ES Fox and you, as their representative in many of those ways, are doing.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: How does that shift occur?
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: How does someone go from gaining that confidence and that ability to make space for themselves and feel comfortable within it to now looking outward and where can they make that that same kind of room for others following and also wanting to enter into the room?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a a big part of the industry and and being a woman is supporting other women.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's it it comes across sometimes so uh cliche and it's hard to do in an area where oftentimes people are competing also with each other for different jobs.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I think in in my journey, I remember I think it's overcoming fear.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: You're afraid to maybe do this.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: You what is that imposter syndrome?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: I remember back with uh women in nuclear uh organization, uh, for the first eight years I didn't join it because I thought, well, I'm not an engineer and I'm not in the station, and I don't work directly with uh I'm not a skilled trade, I don't work directly with the technology.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: The technology technology, I'm not in the vaults, I'm not uh so I can't be.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I I'm not a woman in nuclear.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then I started listening to a few of the um webcasts that they had, and I thought, no, it's not, it's much broader than that.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's the whole industry, there's room, there's opportunities.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you have to be, I don't think you can be selfish.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think being kind, again, uh um may be overused, but uh being kind and having humility and bravery, and I'm actually naming a lot of the uh seven grandfather teachings, so you can tell that I do, I do take the indigenous teachings to heart, and I do think they really uh are elements of our own life, but a lot of those respect.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: If you can lead with that, if you if you feel comfortable that you have those qualities, that you're not the star of the whole show.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's room for everyone and let people in and help, and that success is if someone that you helped along the way is doing well, that's fantastic.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's that should be uh as good as as anything that you you can do in the business.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: And as the person, one of the people at ES Fox, who not only you as a person, but but representing your organization, how do you find those moments where you see someone who could use a little bit of a help or an organization or things like that?
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: How do you make sure you're never putting the blinders on and just focusing on the lane that you're in?
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: Even though part of that is helping organizations, how do you make sure you're always kind of aware and staying observant of other areas where you could say, I could, I could lend a helping hand there.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: I see that person standing on the outskirts, I'm gonna invite them to this dinner.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: How do you make that conscious decision?
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: And is it something that you you kind of really look for day to day?
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think I I try to make that conscious decision because you can get into a little more of a selfish and one focus direction with yourself.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it's uh we we do say you can be anything and and treat yourself well and go for the everything that you want, which is fantastic.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: And and I agree with all of that, but we're leaving out that other element that there are people along the way and they they're the ones that make or break it for you.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that it's fine when everything's going well.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: It there's always bumps in the road at different times.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: If you've created a good network and you look out for other people, they're going to look out for you too.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it works both ways.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's not, it's not just a one way street.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just opening up your heart, being in the corporate world, uh, yes, being competitive.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: But always remembering that we're humans first.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: We're to help each other out.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: It would just work better that way.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: Do you build it into your routine?
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know for me, I try through the week to send out random messages.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think I've I've probably sent some to you.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: Just, hey, I'm thinking of you, hope your week is going well, or it was great seeing you at that event.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: I know you mentioned you were going to this.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like those little touch points where they take two seconds.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: We usually have everyone's emails in some way, shape, or form.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: But even if it's someone who I've never sent an email to before, taking that initiative and saying, Hey, I see you and I just wanted to say hi.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: No obligation.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: No, nothing more than that.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: It feels good on both ends.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: And as you said, you very quickly start to number one, notice more people that that maybe aren't having that in the industry right now.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: But it also expands your network so you're more capable at doing your job, at understanding, at being aligned, and having allies.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: I love going to the job fairs.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think people have noticed if I happen to be on my own at the ES Fox booth, sometimes you won't see me at the booth because I'm talking to pretty much every other vendor.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: And if there's a new person they've hired, I love to talk to them.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that does, I I enjoy doing that.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think that helps because uh new people coming in, if they if they see a face at another event that they've met before and talked with, uh, they're feeling more comfortable and they're more apt to enjoy it and stick with their job in the industry.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think the last time you and I were at a job fair together was up um in community at Sogin.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, we just we ended up in a in a corner just talking.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: But everyone came to us.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: We had quite the little posse going there at the end of the year.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: They did, yes.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: That feels good though, that I think that I think that's how I know I'm on the right track, you're on the right track, is when people want to come and talk to you, not because they think they have something that you can offer, but just because they want to come and talk to you, because you're a friendly face in the crowd.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how you find out um the real person.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what we're all we're all trying to balance uh work and life and families and everything is is so important.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: And if we can provide that bit of love and kindness towards our coworkers, it's going to go a long, long way.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: That sense of community, I say it so often.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: People are probably sick of hearing me say it, but we're building careers, we're building li uh businesses, but we're also living our lives.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: And if we're not enjoying what we're doing, you have to.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: What's the point exactly?
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: What is the point?
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if if I would never want to do something where someone feels like I wasn't welcoming or warm to them, or or that I was maybe trying to use them just to get, you know, something out of that situation.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think I want to live a life where I just enjoy what I'm doing and people know that I enjoy them being in my life.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds so cliche and so hippy-dippy.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: But it is true.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope that anyone who meets me, it's pretty obvious, you know.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I, as you've said earlier, I'm not usually talking about business, I'm usually talking about Disney or the cats or, you know, some nonsense that I get running, yeah, a lot of running.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: And throughout your career, and again, I want to say, I think probably a lesson to be learned here is that the better we get at understanding once we're in a room and in a space, how do we make room for ourselves?
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: That is going to make us even more capable of understanding how to make room for others.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because your career really shows that in the beginning, you made space for you, but you never forgot, and you use that skill to also make space for others.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: When you look back at your career, what do you hope your legacy will one day be?
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know your career is not quite over.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: We joke about, you know, I know I was going to say at the end, but I was going to say about enjoying what you're doing and having that balance.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I was going to say life is short.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: And at my age now, I I can clearly say it goes by very, very fast.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you really do have to take each day and uh have gratitude.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: And if there were mistakes made, you do better the next day.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: And try not to hold grudges, try not to be bitter, try to figure out ways you can improve and move forward.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I say that uh not as someone that just operates alone.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't do it without the wonderful network of of co-workers, colleagues, friends, family that I have, and laughter, and like I said, kind of um uh be able to kid a bit about yourself and and have some fun along the way is is very key.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that's one of your biggest influences so far with the work you've done in nuclear is leaving it maybe a bit of a happier, kinder place?
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like it most certainly even with E.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: S.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: Fox, a highly capable and competent company.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: But just the work that you've done in creating that indigenous role, it's now a company that is is showing up in such a significant way.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's it's brought awareness not only to the indigenous peace, but we also um a couple years ago we started a Fox Women Forward Group.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's to to help empower and give voices to a lot of the women in trades and women in the office, uh on sites, uh, everywhere.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: We still need to be able to freely talk, work out problems, and have allies.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: I know the men are our allies and they are part of that group as well.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: But uh that group has started too.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: So Fox is is really, I think I don't think you can start one program, and and I think it becomes a ripple effect too, because once you start thinking that way, a lot of other things follow.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we we uh actually we've always sponsored the Grand Fondo, the bike race for funds for the local hospital, Bright Shores Health System.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: Up in in Port Elgin and Southampton, Port Elgin and Southampton in August.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a fantastic event.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: I say race, it's not really race, it's a ride.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: But there are some very serious racers.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: We're everywhere from uh I think 10K to 75K.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I had suggested last year, we've always sponsored, we've we've always been eligible for a team.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: I said, let's let's get a team of Fox Women forward.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I we had a huge response.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: We had an absolutely wonderful day.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: People raised money on their own individually, and it was fantastic.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: And they and everyone stayed.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: And um again, I think that brings it to you a sense of community.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: So if you if your workplace can be something you're proud about that they're doing good in the community in different ways, you're going to you're going to be loyal to that company.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think Fox has always been that way, but we've got more opportunities now to show it.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what's funny is and I say this with so much love, but it's so easy to see how what of a team mindset that you have and how you really I think when you think of things, because I've asked you twice now about your legacy, but you always bring it back to what the industry is doing and what ES Fox is doing.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: What I find so endearing about that is the fact that you really, you walk the walk and you talk the talk.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: When you say it's a team effort and it's about us, just the fact that you've always brought it back so naturally, even though I'm directly saying to you, I want your legacy.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: You, you, I don't think you can help but think of what's our legacy and what is Fox doing and and what are all of these people contributing to?
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a very precious thing.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's an amazing thing, especially in a world where more and more people are getting better and better at just saying, well, I and me, and you know.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I I love that.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of us, we already know what your legacy is going to be in the industry with the work you've done and the leadership that you've set and the standard you've set you.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: That we all now have to be.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: Always fun, always fun.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: Always the golf course uh longest drive challenges.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: Every time I'm out there, I'm like, I gotta be.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta give some sort of crumps.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: I need a senior's uh advantage to get back that.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: Just pick the ball up and walk it 10 yards down.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: Make your own advantage.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's the theme.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so now if if we look forward, what is exciting you the most about our industry right now?
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: Going to a lot of the job fairs and a lot of the uh build a dream events and women in nuclear events, it it's the youth and the excitement around the growth of this industry with um the possibilities with um SMRs uh globally global uh isotope recognition and what we're doing and the prospect of a of a new build of Bruce C in the area.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: Those of us in nuclear have known the progression, we know the safety culture, we know what it it provides to to the world really.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: We've got to let everyone else know.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's starting to happen.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think the youth are are excited about nuclear, and they're starting to see there are a wide variety of jobs, not just um uh you know, an electrician or uh project manager.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's a uh wide variety of good jobs, and it is exciting.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think also partnerships with indigenous uh communities, um, having them share in the economic benefit and bringing them on very early for um uh new projects, which wasn't done before and and is is done now, and having a voice.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's exciting to me just watching the progression.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think the clean energy aspect of nuclear can't be denied.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: And we really should promote it especially now, and it's needed.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: I love that the future is really all of ours in nuclear.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it sounds so, you know, fantastical, and yeah, we're just spewing off these things.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: But when you think of the future, and and look at us two women sitting here, neither one of us are engineers, neither one of us are technical.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: I went to school for history, you went to school for sociology.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: And we have made thriving careers that both of us really love in this sector.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: I feel a part of the sector.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: I never feel like I'm on the outside of it, probably because I send all those emails and people like another email or text message from this broad.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I feel like I'm such a part of it and that I'm contributing to it, even though I'm not the one making the power happen or harvesting the isotopes or writing the contracts and agreements for these, you know, SMRs and new builds.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: There's such a future for not only the people like us who maybe aren't the engineers, in addition, of course, to the engineers and the constructors and the tradespeople, but the indigenous uh communities that are now being invited in.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's it's just something so exciting about that, the fact that when we look at the future, we really are working hard to leave no one out of it.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: Which is amazing.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I love this, and especially I know we have a golf tournament coming up on Tuesday, but you won't be there because part of that next generation you're is gonna be in your hands on Tuesday.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: You're grandbaby.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: I get to babysit my grandson.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a chance at longest drive, is what you're saying.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're closest to the fin.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: I would say you had a chance whether I was there or not.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we we don't know.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's a few of us ladies uh kicking around the old nuclear golf circuit that could take it home.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I always say I I I can sometimes uh get part of the game going since I played so early when I was 12, but uh the entire game sometimes just not there.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes the Caesars on course help me along, and sometimes I think they're a real hindrance, and they never tell me what one it's gonna be before the first sip.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think they help.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, they they help me not care as much.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: So either way, I'm I'm a happy camper.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: No, this has been so fantastic, and I want to thank you genuinely for coming and taking the time.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: I know you you drove down to Waterloo to the Splitting Adams studio from Port Elgin.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much for your stories and for sharing them with us here and well, thanks so much, Caitlin.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I I did want to say you are doing a terrific job.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember back at a clean energy NII conference years ago.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: The main thing was how do we get the word out?
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: How do we get the word out?
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: How do we tell people it's nuclear?
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: What you used to never even mention, if you said nuclear at a at a gathering, you're pretty much we're on your own.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what you're doing, and that's what you've done.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: You persisted doing that.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that helps the industry immensely.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for what you're doing.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: I love it too, because uh you mentioned that that was the message way back then at one of the Nuclear Innovation Institute conferences.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: And for them to now be one of, you know, my founding member on this podcast and the support and trust that they've put in me to carry the message and hopefully transcend our nuclear audience has meant so much.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_01: So what a full circle moment that, you know, they were saying about it now, and now they're one of the innovators who's helping me get these stories out into the world.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: And we're ES Fox has is a founding member of NII, and we're very proud of the work that they do and to be a part of it.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: And with uh the Clean Energy Forum, with their innovation, with um bringing awareness to people all over really the province of the opportunities in the skilled trades and and support roles in nuclear with the isotope.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: Globally, we can be world leaders in it.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: And they they're working very hard to bring that message home and they're they're doing the work, and we're very proud to be a part of it.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_01: See?
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_01: The connections, the community.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it all leads into it.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Kathy, for Splitting Adams with me today.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Caitlin.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining us for this conversation.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: The Splitting Addons podcast is produced by Splitting Adams Media, a division of the Carolyn Corporation.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: All of our conversations are made possible through the support of our founding partner, the Nuclear Innovation Institute.