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BONUS PODCAST: The Jane Doe Murders On Oxygen · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. Thank you so much for
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  Speaker 1: being with us on this special bonus podcast of Crime
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  Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. We are previewing an upcoming Oxygen
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  Speaker 1: special called The Jane Doe Murders, and having prosecuted a
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  Speaker 1: Jane Doe murder myself, they are very, very difficult to handle.
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  Speaker 1: Our team at Crime Online and Crime Stories, We're thrilled
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  Speaker 1: to partner again with the true crime TV network Oxygen.
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  Speaker 1: Oxygen has so many awesome true crime specials and series,
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  Speaker 1: including our program in Justice with Nancy Grace, that I
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  Speaker 1: adore making and feeling that we are making a change
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  Speaker 1: in this world, and I'm thrilled to tell you about
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  Speaker 1: their upcoming to our special, The Jane Doe Murders. It
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  Speaker 1: premiers this Sunday, January three, seven pm Eastern and Pacific
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  Speaker 1: on Oxygen. You know I've covered a lot of investigations
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  Speaker 1: where the victim of a violent crime remains unidentified. A
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  Speaker 1: John Doe, a Jane Doe, a baby Doe. Did you
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  Speaker 1: know in the US alone, there are nearly forty thousand
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  Speaker 1: open cases where investigators are unable to identify the victim.
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  Speaker 1: Can you even imagine someone you love deeply going missing
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  Speaker 1: and you never see or hear from them again. You're
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  Speaker 1: left wondering what happened to them? Are they alive, are
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  Speaker 1: they dead? Have they started a new life, do they
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  Speaker 1: just not care about you enough to even let you
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  Speaker 1: know they're alive? And then the awful specter that they
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  Speaker 1: are in fact dead and have met with foul play.
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  Speaker 1: Without identification, there can really be no justice for the
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  Speaker 1: victims families, and these cases often go unsolved because with
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  Speaker 1: every crime, you start with who is the victim now?
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  Speaker 1: In Oxygen's new special to Jane Doe Murders, Yolanda McClary,
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  Speaker 1: a renowned forensic specialist and a former Las Vegas crime
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  Speaker 1: investigator who specializes in recovery of DNA, makes it her
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  Speaker 1: mission to help give Jane Doe their names back. Using
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  Speaker 1: groundbreaking new forensic technology DNA databases, Yolanda and her team
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  Speaker 1: of genealogists set out to help local law enforcements solve
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  Speaker 1: a twenty three year old murder and reveal the identity
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  Speaker 1: of a woman left for dead in the remote woods
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  Speaker 1: of Polk County, Oregon. They've got nothing but bones, but
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  Speaker 1: Yolanda works feverishly to piece together what happened to Jane
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  Speaker 1: Doe and hopefully somehow uncovered clues that will help open
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  Speaker 1: new roads in the case. Joining me right now is
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  Speaker 1: our friend, forensic specialist death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan Joe,
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  Speaker 1: I know I'm watching the Jane Doe murders. Hey, listen
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  Speaker 1: to this trailer, Joe Scott, that came out on this
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  Speaker 1: clarry and here sat this skull all by itself for
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  Speaker 1: twenty three years. We haven't been able to figure out
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  Speaker 1: who this lady is. Looky, she was unfound. How do
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  Speaker 1: you start an investigation when that's the biggest roadblock. These
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  Speaker 1: victims and their families deserve answers. They lost their lives,
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  Speaker 1: not their names. This kind of investigative work is very
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  Speaker 1: different than just genealogy. We have no clue who this
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  Speaker 1: person is. We looked at birth records, marriage records, employment records,
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  Speaker 1: so it has to be the daughter of one of
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  Speaker 1: those remaining siblings. Her family needs to know what happened
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  Speaker 1: to her because without her name, her killer's name remains unknown.
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  Speaker 1: She was someone's mother, daughter, or a sister. To be
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  Speaker 1: able to give them back their name, please everything to me.
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  Speaker 1: The Jane Doe Murders A one night special event Sunday,
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  Speaker 1: January third and seven only an oxygenal Crime FO seven.
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  Speaker 1: You know you're hearing from our friends at Oxygen and
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  Speaker 1: they're upcoming to our special The Jane Doe Murders A
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  Speaker 1: premiers Sunday, January three at seven pm Eastern end Pacific.
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  Speaker 1: Let's go to Joseph Scott, Morgan, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University,
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  Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Joe Scott,
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  Speaker 1: I will never forget the Jane Doe murderer. I prosecuted,
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  Speaker 1: and her face still haunts me. The guy we believe
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  Speaker 1: is a serial killer, and I had to have a
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  Speaker 1: facial reconstructionist work on what she would have looked like
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  Speaker 1: in life. Now she was only partially skeletonized, there was
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  Speaker 1: part of her left to work with. But in this
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  Speaker 1: p County case, I mean, they've got nothing but bones.
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  Speaker 1: Joe Scott, Yeah, and that makes it particularly difficult. Nancy.
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  Speaker 1: You know some of the things that we look for
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  Speaker 1: in a regular investigation, where you know we have someone
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  Speaker 1: that is recently deceased, you're completely absent this in this context.
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  Speaker 1: You don't have a fleshly body before you don't have
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  Speaker 1: somebody that you can actually look at and say, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: this person fits into this particular group. They they're wearing
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  Speaker 1: these types of clothes, I have this hair color, eye color,
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  Speaker 1: that's sort of You're absent all of that and the
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  Speaker 1: only thing you're like, wait a minute, right there. I
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  Speaker 1: just want to put that theory that you're correctly of
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  Speaker 1: course stating, Joe Scott, to reality. Here's a way to
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  Speaker 1: bring it home. For instance, when Lacy Peterson's body was found,
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  Speaker 1: they try to determine what she wearing the same thing
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  Speaker 1: she had worn the night before. I believe Scott Peterson
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  Speaker 1: got his haircut and Lacy had been with him, and
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  Speaker 1: they were trying to figure out did the clothes matchup.
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  Speaker 1: That's important to a timeline because it can help place
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  Speaker 1: had she gone home, had she put on her pj's
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  Speaker 1: before she was killed? Was she wearing something different the
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  Speaker 1: next day to walk the dog Mackenzie in the park.
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  Speaker 1: But without clothes or idea or anything. That's just what
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  Speaker 1: you're saying. It makes it so much more difficult, Joe Scott. Yes,
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  Speaker 1: it does. And you know the first thing you think
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  Speaker 1: about when you find a body, particularly of what appears
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  Speaker 1: to be a young woman and they're nude. The first
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  Speaker 1: thing you're thinking about is very sinister things Like you
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  Speaker 1: mentioned serial killers bodies, they're completely stripped of clothing. Maybe
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  Speaker 1: they've taken them as trophies, or maybe animals have walked
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  Speaker 1: off with a clothing or maybe a minute, hold your
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  Speaker 1: horses when you say they took them as trophies, break
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  Speaker 1: it down, man, Come on, not everybody's investigated thousands of
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  Speaker 1: death scenes like you when you say trophies. For instance,
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  Speaker 1: I remember a case where the killer try to keep
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  Speaker 1: the driver's license of every victim. Hello, the cops found it.
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  Speaker 1: Who else would have all those driver's license except the killer?
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  Speaker 1: He kept it like trophy. He's like, what are you doing?
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  Speaker 1: You know we were talking about clothing. Take it? Did
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  Speaker 1: the killer? Of course, it's a man take any trophies.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm not a man hater. Okay, So you've got
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  Speaker 1: Joe Scott right here. I love him, I love my husband.
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  Speaker 1: Point is, statistically, we know it's a man, and not
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  Speaker 1: only that, but the m O, the modus operandi, method
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  Speaker 1: of operation, the way her body was left. But we
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  Speaker 1: don't know any of those details, Joe Scott, because oh
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  Speaker 1: we've got our bones. Yeah, And you know, Nancy, for
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  Speaker 1: me working a lot of these cases like this over
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  Speaker 1: the course of my career, one of the biggest pieces
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  Speaker 1: of information that you have coming out of this is
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  Speaker 1: where they are found. Who had access to this particular area.
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  Speaker 1: Is it immediately adjacent to a roadway or did they
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  Speaker 1: go deep, deep, deep into the woods to discard the body?
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  Speaker 1: So that is a big first step that you have
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  Speaker 1: to take with this case. And one of the things
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  Speaker 1: that I was taught early on in my career was
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  Speaker 1: you have to be able to explain the reason why
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  Speaker 1: someone has been left to die and decay for this
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  Speaker 1: long period of time. How is this person not popping
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  Speaker 1: up on the radar? How are people not outscouring the woods?
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  Speaker 1: How are people not engaged with actively trying to find
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  Speaker 1: this person? And that is one of the biggest mysteries
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  Speaker 1: of all. And I'm just thinking about on the Jink
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  Speaker 1: Dope murder I prosecuted and how difficult it was, and
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  Speaker 1: that hurt face as I know it through reconstruction, still
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  Speaker 1: haunts me. What can you learn from just the bones?
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  Speaker 1: Isn't it true Joe Scott that you can tell the
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  Speaker 1: sex general theory about the age, ethnicity. For instance, you
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  Speaker 1: can tell if the person is a white female, a
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  Speaker 1: Hispanic female. I think you can tell if it's an
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  Speaker 1: Asian female, a black female. I'm not quite sure how
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  Speaker 1: they do that, but I understand that you can. Is
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  Speaker 1: it based on the teeth or the pelvic bones? Well, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: for sex for instance, you can. Actually it's the pelvic
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  Speaker 1: girdle that you know. Folks at home will just think
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  Speaker 1: about the width of their pelvis itself. And traditionally with women,
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  Speaker 1: you know, when we look at the pelvis, the pelvis
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  Speaker 1: is wider. It has to accommodate a birth canal in
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  Speaker 1: order to facilitate the birth of a child. Men tend
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  Speaker 1: to be more narrow. But you know, Nancy, there's something
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  Speaker 1: else that was always more striking to me when I
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  Speaker 1: looked at a skeleton. You can tell all of those
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  Speaker 1: kind of general generalities with the body. But what's really
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  Speaker 1: fascinating is actually you can tell about their level of healthcare.
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  Speaker 1: You can tell about their age, how much bone wear
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  Speaker 1: is there, there are arthritic changes, you know in the joints,
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  Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Is there actually bone loss that
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  Speaker 1: you get with osteoporosis many times? How about their teeth.
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  Speaker 1: Do you know, Nancy, that we can actually look on
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  Speaker 1: the We can actually look at the teeth and determine
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  Speaker 1: what side of an individual's mouth they favored while chewing.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I tell my students at Jacksonville State that
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  Speaker 1: take your tongue running around your teeth, the area where
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  Speaker 1: your teeth are actually the least sharp or the more dull,
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  Speaker 1: that's your dependent side of chewing. That's the things that
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  Speaker 1: we look at. And there's those little passing things. Isn't
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  Speaker 1: it that we notice about those in our immediate circle.
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  Speaker 1: Somebody might have said at some point in Tom, what
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  Speaker 1: side of your mouth do you chew on? Or wow?
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  Speaker 1: You always ever asked me that? Ever, that's all right now,
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  Speaker 1: And I'd like to point out that I was carefully
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  Speaker 1: watching Jackie as you said that, and she absolutely was
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  Speaker 1: figuring out which side of the mouth. Okay, you're right side? Cheets? Right?
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  Speaker 1: Thank you? Okay, Now, so back what with finding nothing
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  Speaker 1: but bones determining cod cause of death much less man
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  Speaker 1: or death, It's going to be very difficult there unless
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  Speaker 1: you can see a broken bone or a nick on
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  Speaker 1: a bone from a knife, or you find a bullet nearby,
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  Speaker 1: or you find a bone that has suffered a gunshot wound.
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  Speaker 1: Other than that, with Jane Doe totally skeletonized, you're not
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  Speaker 1: going to find cod No, you're not. And this is why, Nancy,
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  Speaker 1: because commonly in traditional deaths, where we have bodies that
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  Speaker 1: are fully intact, we have what is remaining. We refer
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  Speaker 1: to it as soft tissue, and you can see things
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  Speaker 1: like hemorrhage. You can appreciate gunshot wounds or knife wounds,
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  Speaker 1: or maybe some other trauma, blunt force trauma, for instance,
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  Speaker 1: with bruising and hemorrhage, you can even age those injuries,
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  Speaker 1: but not with a skeleton. You know. One of the
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  Speaker 1: biggest things that we look for, for instance, are the skulls.
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  Speaker 1: If you're fortunate enough to find a skull, many times
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  Speaker 1: you just find bones just lying about. But if you
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  Speaker 1: do have a skull, you can look for things we
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  Speaker 1: call holes in skulls defects. So you're looking at, for instance,
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  Speaker 1: an entrance wound for a gunshot wound, or maybe an
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  Speaker 1: exit wound. You're looking for a depressed skull fracture, or
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  Speaker 1: maybe the face has been pounded in. You'll see those
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  Speaker 1: fine facial bones that have been fractured. Those types of
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  Speaker 1: things are indicators. And of course, like you mentioned, if
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  Speaker 1: you're fortunate enough to find like a rib bone, maybe
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  Speaker 1: a knife has passed through and you can look for
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  Speaker 1: a tool mark on that, a scratch, a nick, or
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  Speaker 1: maybe even a group or in the case of where
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  Speaker 1: you have a dismemberment, you can actually find dismemberment marks
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  Speaker 1: left behind by saws and those sorts of things. I'm
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  Speaker 1: just thinking about the emotional tool it has taken on
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  Speaker 1: this woman's family. For all I know she had children.
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  Speaker 1: And of course you can tell a lot about the
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  Speaker 1: person by the length of their leg bones or their armbones.
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  Speaker 1: When you try to extract DNA, how long can you
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  Speaker 1: get DNA let's just say from teeth or I mean,
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  Speaker 1: when you think about it, there's not always teeth in
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  Speaker 1: a skull or from a bone, right, let's just say
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  Speaker 1: your leg bone or your hip bone. How long can
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  Speaker 1: you still get DNA from your bones? I'm glad you
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  Speaker 1: brought this up. This is the fabulous word picture I
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  Speaker 1: came up with to help my students at Jacksonville State
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  Speaker 1: think of. Think of a longbone, like a leg bone,
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  Speaker 1: which is where we would generally harvest, say, for instance,
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  Speaker 1: mtochondrial DNA out of the bone if it's still viable.
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  Speaker 1: Think of that bone as a leather briefcase, all right,
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  Speaker 1: And a leather briefcases seem kind of sturdy, don't they.
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  Speaker 1: It's going to contain that information for a while, but
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  Speaker 1: leather in and of itself will wear down after a while.
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  Speaker 1: But if we think about the teeth, Nancy, we think
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  Speaker 1: about the teeth, think about the teeth as a titanium briefcase.
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  Speaker 1: It holds onto things longer and better because teeth are
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  Speaker 1: in fact not bone, they are something else. They are
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  Speaker 1: this really strong composite. And so if we can get
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  Speaker 1: into the tooth, if we can get to the pulp,
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  Speaker 1: we can extract DNA from there. But again, like you said,
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  Speaker 1: with skulls laying on the out in the woods, many
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  Speaker 1: times to get knocked around by animals or just over
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  Speaker 1: a period of time, teeth fall out of those sockets.
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  Speaker 1: You have to be very careful of the scene. If
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  Speaker 1: you can in fact recover to sometimes that can be
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  Speaker 1: a DNA gold mine. Wow, DNA can even be extracted
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  Speaker 1: from ancient bones and teeth specimens. It's very very difficult process.
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  Speaker 1: The extraction of DNA but there's so much more to
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  Speaker 1: identifying someone and just trying to get DNA. And I'm
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  Speaker 1: not really sure how many bones were found in Jane.
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  Speaker 1: Now I know there's a skull, what does it tell you?
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  Speaker 1: Joe Scott tells me a lot that her skull was
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  Speaker 1: found in the woods, but easily, easily you know, identifiable.
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  Speaker 1: It wasn't buried, it was right there on the surface.
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  Speaker 1: That tells me a lot about the killer. Unless it's
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  Speaker 1: there because of animal activity. Yeah, it could be as
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  Speaker 1: a result of animal activity, if there are no surrounding bones.
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  Speaker 1: I'll tell you this, Dogs in particular love skulls. I've found.
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  Speaker 1: I've had countless cases, Nancy, where dogs will literally walk
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  Speaker 1: up into just some citizens yard with a skull. Can
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  Speaker 1: you imagine how horrifying that is? And I'll have terrified
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  Speaker 1: people that used to call it the medical examiner at
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  Speaker 1: the coroner's office and say, oh my god, we've got
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  Speaker 1: a we've got a skull here, you know, and you
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  Speaker 1: go out there and dogs, you know, dogs are simple creatures.
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  Speaker 1: They it's like playing with the ball. They see this
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  Speaker 1: kind of spherical logic. They like to play with it,
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  Speaker 1: carry around and so but let me tell you something else, Nancy,
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  Speaker 1: that's kind of sinister about this. And I actually work
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  Speaker 1: as series of serial killings that were kind of go
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  Speaker 1: to this point. In this particular case, we had a
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  Speaker 1: guy that would never bury bodies. He loved though, to
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  Speaker 1: pose bodies. He loved to have them exposed and take
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  Speaker 1: these women and just kind of lay them out. And
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  Speaker 1: so they're not necessarily going to the trouble taking the
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  Speaker 1: time to dig the hole because they want people to
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  Speaker 1: be shocked by finding these remains. Now, that does tell
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  Speaker 1: us a lot. It can also say if you find
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  Speaker 1: a body just on the surface, for instance, that they
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  Speaker 1: were rushed, they wanted to just dump the body and
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  Speaker 1: get as much distance between them and the deceased. Or
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  Speaker 1: in certain cases you'll have people that maybe you are
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  Speaker 1: injured and they just kind of, you know, sadly, just
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  Speaker 1: walk off into a desolate area and fall down in
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  Speaker 1: one location and they succumb at that point in time.
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  Speaker 1: So you have to you have to weigh off. I
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  Speaker 1: don't think Jane, they wandered out into the woods and
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  Speaker 1: had a heart attack. If that's where you're going, Oh,
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  Speaker 1: I'm not. However, as you know, and we've covered so
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  Speaker 1: many cases together, there are those times when people are injured,
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  Speaker 1: maybe they've escaped, maybe they've escaped a killer and they
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  Speaker 1: were so horribly injured, disoriented, or maybe they died as
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  Speaker 1: a result of the elements after they had been abandoned
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  Speaker 1: by somebody they escaped. They just tried to get to
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  Speaker 1: a point to be saved, and it just so happens
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  Speaker 1: the next person that finds them is some hunter walking
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  Speaker 1: through the woods that might just see a skeleton laying
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  Speaker 1: on the ground. It's a very sad circumstance. I just
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  Speaker 1: hate it for this family out there somewhere that never
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: knew what happened to their daughter. Guys, we are talking
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: about a so called Jane Doe. Don't miss it. The
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Jane Doe Murders, a Brandy special premiering on Sunday, January third,
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  Speaker 1: seven pm Eastern and Pacific only on Oxygen, My TV home,
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  Speaker 1: the true network for crime. Joscade. Thanks so much for
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  Speaker 1: breaking it down putting it back together for us. Thank
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: you Oxygen and the Jane Doe Murders for being our
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  Speaker 1: partners here, Eh Crime Stories. I'll see a Sunday night,
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  Speaker 1: seven o'clock Eastern. Goodbye, friend,