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Derby Safety outlined · Drive with John Perlman

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: You're with John Perlman on 702. 702 Drive still to come.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: We're going to pick up on a conversation we've been
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: having since the start of the show. How do we
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: make large-scale football matches, in particular the Chiefs-Pirates derby, a
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: safer experience, a better fan experience for everybody? People, as
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  Speaker 1: Tola Kelly was saying a little bit earlier, arriving at
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  Speaker 1: the stadium, 10, 11, 12 o'clock, or certainly in the
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  Speaker 1: general area of Nazareth, and still struggling to get into
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  Speaker 1: the stadium in time for kickoff. Our guest on that,
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  Speaker 1: Nobile Ndlovu, who's with Cash & Sport Research and Advisory.
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  Speaker 1: But before that, Tola Kellert, Jada sent me a very
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  Speaker 1: interesting article, Kabazela did, and it's a study done by
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  Speaker 1: two universities, and let's note the point. One of them
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  Speaker 1: is the University of Exeter, which is in England, and
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  Speaker 1: the other, the University of British Columbia, which I think
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  Speaker 1: is on the west side of Canada. So these are
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  Speaker 1: societies not identical to our own. That said, the study
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  Speaker 1: says parents should stop mollycoddling their children and allow them
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  Speaker 1: to enjoy more risky play. So let them climb trees,
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  Speaker 1: let them ride their bikes downhill, splash around in outdoor streams,
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  Speaker 1: I suppose, depends very much where the streams are. But
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  Speaker 1: their findings are that kids who are allowed to take
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  Speaker 1: these kind of risks and be a bit more expansive
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  Speaker 1: in their play end up having better physical and mental
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  Speaker 1: health as well as sharper learning and thinking skills. Discuss.
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  Speaker 2: I would.
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  Speaker 1: As they used to say in exams.
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  Speaker 3: I'm not a parent, so maybe they have their own
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  Speaker 3: ideas about why they would prefer that their kids are
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  Speaker 3: in a safer environment. But I'm also a person that
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  Speaker 3: believes that sometimes you must learn by feeling.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, and falling.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, and let your child fall down because you keep
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  Speaker 3: on saying, if you do that, you're going to hurt yourself.
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  Speaker 2: If you do that.
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  Speaker 3: Let them hit themselves. Then that way they've learned the
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  Speaker 3: lesson and they've moved on. But also when they become
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  Speaker 3: an adult, it's so much fun sharing with your friends
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  Speaker 3: why you have that scar. Then all of us are going, oh,
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  Speaker 3: I've also done that before. But then there's stories that
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  Speaker 3: build their character and then you realize that, okay, I
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  Speaker 3: did have quite a free childhood where my parents allowed
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  Speaker 3: me to explore. Don't just let them do whatever they
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  Speaker 3: want because also you have to find that fine line
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  Speaker 3: between Letting your child be free without kind of seeming
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  Speaker 3: like a nuisance to the rest of the community around them.
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  Speaker 3: But let kids have fun. If they fail, at least
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  Speaker 3: they'll come to you and that will allow your guys'
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  Speaker 3: bond as a parent.
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  Speaker 1: And a child to grow. I heard a fascinating thing
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  Speaker 1: and I can't remember the source, but maybe somebody out
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  Speaker 1: there has heard it as well and can maybe guide
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  Speaker 1: us to a link or something we can read. But
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  Speaker 1: the children, when they fall and hurt themselves, look up
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  Speaker 1: to see how the adult reacts. And if the adult
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  Speaker 1: has got kind of look on their face, then the
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  Speaker 1: kid starts crying because something bad has happened. Now, I'm
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  Speaker 1: sure there's a continuum there because sometimes you cry because
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  Speaker 1: it's sore. I know I certainly did. But I thought
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  Speaker 1: that was fascinating. I mean, how did you deal with this, Karabo?
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  Speaker 1: Because you've been quite beautifully descriptive about your own childhood
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  Speaker 1: and playing till it was dark and so on. And
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  Speaker 1: you've got, you know, a young son now growing up
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  Speaker 1: in perhaps a slightly different set of circumstances.
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  Speaker 4: I must say I'm guilty of Molly coddling a bit
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  Speaker 4: too much. I was very cautious when he was growing up.
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  Speaker 4: I remember, like you say, when he was learning how
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  Speaker 4: to walk and he falls on his head or he
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  Speaker 4: bangs his head. I'll be that parent who'd be like, oh,
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  Speaker 4: my kid, and run after him. And then my mother
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  Speaker 4: was like, just look away, pretend as if nothing has happened,
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  Speaker 4: and watch him just get on with his life. And
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  Speaker 4: I learned to just, you know what, I think I'm
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  Speaker 4: the softie here, and I'm just passing it to him.
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  Speaker 4: But yeah, it's been 10 years now. Along the years,
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  Speaker 4: I've just learned to be a little bit tougher or just,
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  Speaker 4: you know, not overreact when he hurts himself. But it's
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  Speaker 4: tough to see your son hurt and not react to it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and as you all know, I haven't
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  Speaker 1: raised kids myself, but I'd love to get your thoughts,
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  Speaker 1: either a reflection on your own childhood. or if you're
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  Speaker 1: doing parenting either as a blood parent or perhaps a relative,
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  Speaker 1: maybe there's a young person in your care. And they're
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  Speaker 1: not saying, by the way, the people who did the research,
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  Speaker 1: get them climbing trees at any age or walking to school,
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  Speaker 1: but they're suggesting that there should be a degree of
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  Speaker 1: risk out there and certainly a high degree of physical activity.
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  Speaker 1: So please do give us a call on that on 011- 883-0702-072-702-1702.
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  Speaker 1: It's seven minutes to five. Right, let's get back then
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  Speaker 1: to the debates around the big football matches often taking
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  Speaker 1: place at venues like the FNB Stadium. And that seems
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  Speaker 1: to be the focus of a lot of the conversation.
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  Speaker 1: I'm not sure if there are similar issues that at
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  Speaker 1: other well-used venues for big matches like Moses Mabida. But
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  Speaker 1: let's focus on FNB Stadium. Let's see if we can
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  Speaker 1: get some insight into what of the suggestions from Sports
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  Speaker 1: Minister Gaten McKenzie. could actually be implemented. Nobile Ndlovu is
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  Speaker 1: someone we regularly draw on to pick our way through
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  Speaker 1: some of the thorny sports problems. He is founder of
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  Speaker 1: Cash & Sport Research and Advisory, and we're delighted to
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  Speaker 1: have him now. Nobile, numbered tickets, something a bit more
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  Speaker 1: akin to the order and practical arrangements that you get,
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  Speaker 1: for example, at a rugby match at the same venue.
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  Speaker 1: Why don't we have that in football, and might there
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  Speaker 1: be a good reason why we don't? Good afternoon.
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  Speaker 2: Good afternoon, John. The primary reason is cost. And I
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  Speaker 2: think a lot of people would say that I'm wrong
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  Speaker 2: and say that there's other factors, but the main reason
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  Speaker 2: is cost. And why I say that is because allocated
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  Speaker 2: or designated seating requires for you to control the crowd
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  Speaker 2: to a point where you can move people if they're
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  Speaker 2: seating in the wrong area. And a large number of
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  Speaker 2: security staff to carry that out. We have a problem
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  Speaker 2: in the PSL in that there is no allocated seating.
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  Speaker 2: And the primary reason is the fact that it's quite
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  Speaker 2: expensive to carry that number of staff at every single venue.
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  Speaker 2: And therefore, essentially, the view is that wherever you want,
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  Speaker 2: but it causes problems because people can then do whatever
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  Speaker 2: they want in terms of where they want to sit
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  Speaker 2: and crowd control becomes problematic.
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  Speaker 1: Could that cost diminish over time where you say to yourself, okay,
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  Speaker 1: it's an investment for the first six months of a
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  Speaker 1: PSL season or whatever the timeline is, but then you
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  Speaker 1: amortize that over a much longer period where a different
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  Speaker 1: culture of being at a football match, particularly the derby,
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  Speaker 1: sets in and people become used to, I'm in block six,
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  Speaker 1: row five, seat 10.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it works. It would be if the
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  Speaker 2: stadiums and facilities arrangements around PSL teams were more concrete
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  Speaker 2: and long-term. None of the PSL teams at the moment
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  Speaker 2: own any facilities. All of them are anchor tenants. Mamluri Sundown,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I think very recently had to move a match,
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  Speaker 2: you know, because the balls were playing. And it doesn't
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  Speaker 2: allow for you to do that when you constantly, you
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  Speaker 2: don't even know which facility you'll be at. The staff
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  Speaker 2: that you would employ permanently, you don't know where they
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  Speaker 2: would come from, so you don't do it. So that's
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  Speaker 2: probably the major challenge with regards to PSL clubs, being
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  Speaker 2: able to do that on a consistent long-term basis.
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  Speaker 1: Is it absolutely clear at any major PSL fixture as
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  Speaker 1: to who is in charge? And I ask that not
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  Speaker 1: because of my attendance at a PSL game, but a
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  Speaker 1: Sundowns match, I think it was a semi or a
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  Speaker 1: first leg of a final, I can't recall, in the
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  Speaker 1: Champions League. But my experience was, and I get that
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  Speaker 1: I hadn't been for a while, so maybe I'd lost
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  Speaker 1: a bit of muscle memory, but I seemed to be
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  Speaker 1: stopped by all sorts of people quite frequently as I
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  Speaker 1: gradually made my way to the gate. And it seemed
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  Speaker 1: there were various people in charge and the cops were
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  Speaker 1: a bit involved. And then there were other people, none
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  Speaker 1: of whom seemed especially clearly designated. Is that a point?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think that one is a lot easier.
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  Speaker 2: There is a joint operations committee which is set up
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  Speaker 2: before every game. It includes the Metro Police. It includes
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  Speaker 2: stadium management who would ordinarily run for most of our
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  Speaker 2: PSL facilities, stadium management. And then there are others, including
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  Speaker 2: the municipalities who own the stadiums. And then there is also,
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  Speaker 2: wherever required, there's also other police, including the SAPS. For
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  Speaker 2: major matches like a threat to Derby, they might rope
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  Speaker 2: in other services because it's just such a big, you know, event. But,
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  Speaker 2: you know, we've had two major disasters in the PSL.
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  Speaker 2: In 1991, there was the Orkney disaster. And then I
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  Speaker 2: think it was in 2001, we had the Ellis Park disaster.
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  Speaker 2: We lost 42 in Orkney and 43 in Ellis Park.
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  Speaker 2: And the Ellis Park disaster led to the Sazria Act,
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  Speaker 2: which governs safety and security at events. And we're still
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  Speaker 2: talking about this in 2026. I don't understand why.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it is something that we keep coming back
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  Speaker 1: to and we will come back to it again. But
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  Speaker 1: for now, thank you very much, Ngo Bile Ndlovu, founder
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  Speaker 1: of Cash & Sports. research, and advisory. And if you've
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  Speaker 1: got more points to add to that, please do give
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  Speaker 1: us a call. Anything that will deliver safety has to
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  Speaker 1: be priority number one, two, and three. I'm not certain
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  Speaker 1: though what exactly would. And it seems to me that
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  Speaker 1: some of the danger that does arise is people breaking
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  Speaker 1: the law, people trying to get into games for which
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  Speaker 1: they don't have tickets. And I don't know. if, for example,
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  Speaker 1: getting people to arrive early is going to change that
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  Speaker 1: if people's either through desperation or through a criminal mindset
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  Speaker 1: are trying to get into a stadium for which they
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  Speaker 1: haven't paid. Yeah, plenty, plenty to try and thrash out.
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  Speaker 1: We'll see if we can get it done in some
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  Speaker 1: way that actually leads to lasting change. 702 Drive.