Latest / Skin Anarchy / Formula Botanica CEO, Lorraine Dallmeier

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Formula Botanica CEO, Lorraine Dallmeier · Skin Anarchy

0:01
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0:34
SPEAKER_01: Hi guys, welcome back to another episode of Skincare Anarchy.
0:38
SPEAKER_01: This is your host, Ekta, and today I have with me the CEO of Formula Botanica.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure a lot of you have heard about Formula Botanica because they're behind educating so many beauty entrepreneurs globally.
0:51
SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Lorraine Dahlminer.
0:55
SPEAKER_01: She is here with us today.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Lorraine, for joining us.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: We're so excited to have you here.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: Of course, thank you so much for having me.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: I'm thrilled to be here.
1:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, right.
1:08
SPEAKER_02: So yes, I'm Lorraine Dahlmeyer.
1:10
SPEAKER_02: I run Formula Botanica.
1:11
SPEAKER_02: Um, we are the online organic cosmetic formulation school.
1:15
SPEAKER_02: So we teach people how to make their own skincare and hair care, and hopefully at some point in the future, makeup using natural and botanical and sustainable ingredients.
1:25
SPEAKER_02: Um we have, and then turn it into a business if they want to.
1:28
SPEAKER_02: So we have over 11 and a half thousand students at the moment in 170 countries worldwide, which is insane.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: Wow, talk about like, you know, inspiring people to start their own thing.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: That's crazy cool.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: Please go ahead.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: I interrupted you.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: That's fine.
1:46
SPEAKER_02: Everyone wants to learn to formulate, and we want to teach them because it's one of those skills that really empowers you.
1:51
SPEAKER_02: And you you're sort of thinking, I want to learn how to cook for myself, I want to learn how to make my own clothes, and I want to learn how to make my own cosmetics is like the next logical step.
2:00
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, we've been teaching people now for uh eight years.
2:04
SPEAKER_02: The school has been going, almost nine years actually.
2:06
SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, and it's been incredible, it's been such a fun time running Formula Botanica and and watching our students change their lives and start these amazing brands as a result of our teachings.
2:18
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I'm not sure.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: I actually heard about you first through Zayla Skin because the founder she took your class and she was raving about it.
2:27
SPEAKER_01: She was like, I learned so much, and um sorry, I learned so much, and she was like, you know, I really, really enjoyed the class and I loved um all the information you provided.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: So that really inspired her to start this amazing line.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: So oh, that's so wonderful to hear.
2:43
SPEAKER_02: And I love hearing stories like that because you know it people come to us and they're like, You have changed my life.
2:48
SPEAKER_02: I've quit my job, or you know, I'm now doing something I've been passionate about for years, and you've taught me the skills to do that.
2:54
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I'm I'm very fortunate with what I do every day.
2:57
SPEAKER_02: I love my job.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it shows.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: It shows in your work.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: So um, what okay, so what inspired you to first want to get into this um part of the skincare realm?
3:07
SPEAKER_01: You know, because you're so unique in the way that, you know, you're standing out really in my eyes, because you're fueling all of the information that's coming out in terms of skincare brands.
3:18
SPEAKER_01: So, what really inspired you to go in the direction of education rather than you know, creating your own line?
3:24
SPEAKER_02: Well, it's interesting you ask that because I did want to create my own line.
3:28
SPEAKER_02: So I was on maternity leave with my first son, who's now 10.
3:31
SPEAKER_02: So we, I mean, we're talking like 10 years ago already, and I was sat there thinking, I really want to create something for myself.
3:37
SPEAKER_02: You know, I had a great job, I'd always had really good jobs.
3:40
SPEAKER_02: I worked as an environmental consultant, an environmental scientist, but I'd always come up against that glass ceiling in the workplace.
3:46
SPEAKER_02: So I wanted to run my own business.
3:48
SPEAKER_02: And first of all, I got really into DIY beauty, you know, sort of mixing up fruits and vegetables and you know, the sort of fun things that people start with.
3:56
SPEAKER_02: And I thought I'm gonna turn this into an app.
3:58
SPEAKER_02: So, first of all, I created a DIY beauty app, which is not really the sort of standard thing that you do when you're on maternity leave with a baby, but I I started to climb the walls a bit at home and I was like, I have to do something for myself.
4:10
SPEAKER_02: And so I figured, why not?
4:11
SPEAKER_02: I can do this.
4:12
SPEAKER_02: So I created this app and it was downloaded all over the world in like a hundred countries, and you know, I got featured in major publications, and I thought, okay, we're on to something here.
4:21
SPEAKER_02: And then I thought, what's the next step?
4:23
SPEAKER_02: So I thought, okay, I'm gonna start my own skincare line.
4:25
SPEAKER_02: How do I do that?
4:27
SPEAKER_02: And I have qualifications in biology, so I know a lot about the skin and science and anatomy.
4:32
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I didn't know how to formulate.
4:34
SPEAKER_02: So I uh found a small course online, took it, loved it, and then realized that this was what I wanted to do.
4:41
SPEAKER_02: I really wanted to get into the science of skincare.
4:45
SPEAKER_02: So I started to create my own line and I started to blog already.
4:49
SPEAKER_02: And even in that short period of time, and we're talking like six to 12 months, I was getting, you know, 30,000 readers a month on my blog.
4:56
SPEAKER_02: I had all these followers online, and I realized that the information I'd learnt through formulating and learning how to formulate had already changed my life, and I was changing all these other people's lives through the information I was putting out there.
5:07
SPEAKER_02: So when I had the opportunity to actually buy the school that I trained with, I snapped it up.
5:13
SPEAKER_02: I was on my second maternity leave by this point with my my second son.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: What is it with you and like having a child and becoming power woman?
5:22
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I did climb the walls a little bit when I was on maternity leave with my children.
5:26
SPEAKER_02: Um, because here in the UK, you get a year off as well.
5:28
SPEAKER_02: So I had two whole years.
5:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know it's we're very fortunate in that respect.
5:33
SPEAKER_02: So I bought Formula Botanica Lockstock and Barrel.
5:35
SPEAKER_02: I mean, in those days, it was just a tiny side hustle.
5:38
SPEAKER_02: It was a one-woman show, and it was supposed to be something I would run for an hour a day by myself.
5:44
SPEAKER_02: And I had my you know, my baby in tow, my toddler in tow.
5:46
SPEAKER_02: And then I went back to work after maternity leave, and I thought, okay, this is you know my sort of side hustle.
5:52
SPEAKER_02: But then I never I never rest on my laurels.
5:54
SPEAKER_02: So I threw myself into it.
5:55
SPEAKER_02: And within four months, I'd quit my job and had made my first hire.
5:59
SPEAKER_02: And you know, here we are now, almost seven years later.
6:01
SPEAKER_02: I have 40 staff, we all work full-time, you know, we have 11 and a half thousand students.
6:06
SPEAKER_02: It's huge.
6:07
SPEAKER_02: So it's been a major roller coaster ride for me.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, talk about success.
6:13
SPEAKER_01: I mean, really, that's that's your hard work right there, you know.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: And I I really admire you for that.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: You know, I love seeing women who are juggling motherhood and you know, business and just career, especially with your science background.
6:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I truly commend you.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I have a science background, so I know, you know, just how driven um people women in science are.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: So I love that.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: I really love that.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, so tell me more about um the clean beauty aspect of um what you teach.
6:45
SPEAKER_01: Because I know right now a lot of brands are focusing on clean beauty and they want all the ingredients to be very well sourced and you know, um, formulated in a good way.
6:54
SPEAKER_01: So, how did you decide to kind of gear towards that, the the clean beauty community?
7:01
SPEAKER_02: Uh well, I should add that we we don't really talk that much about clean beauty, we talk more about green beauty.
7:07
SPEAKER_02: And uh for us, the the sort of overriding factor is organic beauty more than anything, because organic is something that you can't really dispute the definition.
7:16
SPEAKER_02: There is a certification scheme.
7:17
SPEAKER_02: Well, there are lots of certification schemes out there for organic beauty.
7:20
SPEAKER_02: Um, and that was like the holy grail that we wanted to aim for.
7:23
SPEAKER_02: Now, saying that, not everyone who goes through our courses only sticks with organic.
7:26
SPEAKER_02: Some of them choose not to go organic, some of them go vegan, some of them go, you know, um clean beauty, as you say.
7:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, so we we cater for that by we've almost sort of redefined what clean beauty means.
7:39
SPEAKER_02: Because as you can imagine, clean beauty does attract quite a lot of controversy in the beauty industry because the opposite, of course, is dirty beauty.
7:46
SPEAKER_02: Um we don't really go down the route of vilifying synthetics, we just don't work with them.
7:51
SPEAKER_02: It's not in my world, it's not in my sphere.
7:53
SPEAKER_02: There are loads of people out there using synthetic ingredients, we're not those people.
7:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, but we decided we had to redefine clean beauty a little bit to sort of fit with our ethos of being positive about botanicals and organics and really embracing that green sustainable angle as well.
8:09
SPEAKER_02: So for us, uh clean beauty means bringing together the concepts of beauty and well-being, first of all.
8:15
SPEAKER_02: Now, traditionally, the mainstream beauty industry has never embraced well-being and beauty.
8:20
SPEAKER_02: Beauty is there, cosmetics are there to beautify, to cleanse, to clean, and really sit on the outer layer of the skin.
8:27
SPEAKER_02: And I would argue that the modern conscious consumer doesn't look at them that way anymore.
8:32
SPEAKER_02: They look at cosmetics as something that also contributes to your well-being overall.
8:36
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's where clean beauty starts.
8:38
SPEAKER_02: Then the second point, I think, is that clean beauty embraces the concepts of transparency and ethics.
8:44
SPEAKER_02: So being clean in how you operate as well, clean in how you put your ingredients out there, clean in how you deal with your customers as well.
8:53
SPEAKER_02: Then the third component for us is that clean beauty is clean for the planet as well for people, um, as well as for people, I should say.
9:00
SPEAKER_02: Um, because of course, you know, we want to do the right thing in terms of sustainability, environmental sustainability, social sustainability.
9:07
SPEAKER_02: I think that's where clean beauty has a big role to play too.
9:10
SPEAKER_02: And that's where it overlaps with green beauty, of course, as well.
9:13
SPEAKER_02: And then finally, when you, I mean, when you go to the Thesaurus and you type in the word clean, the first word that it will show you is hygienic.
9:20
SPEAKER_02: So clean beauty products should also be safe and hygienically made.
9:25
SPEAKER_02: And I think this is a really important thing because a lot of people think, you know, indie beauty brands, they're often made in a kitchen, they're not clean necessarily, but absolutely, I know so well, all the indie beauty entrepreneurs that train with us are absolutely meeting those good manufacturing practice standards.
9:40
SPEAKER_02: And for us, that is clean beauty as well.
9:42
SPEAKER_02: So as you can see, we've redefined it a little bit for our own purposes because we don't, we're not out there in the marketplace vilifying other brands.
9:50
SPEAKER_02: We don't speak ill of synthetics.
9:52
SPEAKER_02: We simply don't work with them.
9:54
SPEAKER_02: We just work with botanicals and naturals.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
9:57
SPEAKER_01: I love that you're highlighting the fact that you're not vilifying other brands because I see that so much on social media where people are just, you know, they're blasting brands and their stories.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: And I just don't think that's the right way to go about anything.
10:10
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
10:11
SPEAKER_01: And it's like there's so much work that goes behind every brand to create a company and then to launch it and promote it, it's a huge feat.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: And I also saw um there's actually a publication, I think, about how parabens are not that bad and they've been truly vilified in the sinker community.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I think that goes hand in hand with what you're saying.
10:30
SPEAKER_02: I completely agree.
10:31
SPEAKER_02: I mean, first of all, for me, Formula Botanica always has to be about positivity.
10:34
SPEAKER_02: I only really want us to put positivity out there in the world because I think you reap what you sow.
10:39
SPEAKER_02: And if you're out there slamming other people, then you know that's going to come back to you at some point, and that goes for everyone in everything.
10:45
SPEAKER_02: Like personally, I don't take part in social media comment threads either if I can avoid it.
10:50
SPEAKER_02: There's no need for that in my life.
10:52
SPEAKER_02: I don't need anywhere near me.
10:55
SPEAKER_02: And you're right, exactly.
10:58
SPEAKER_02: And you're right.
10:58
SPEAKER_02: I mean, there are so many ingredients out there, like parabons, um, which are also found in nature, you know, they're also found in certain fruits and vegetables, but again, they're not accepted in natural cosmetics, so we don't work with them.
11:10
SPEAKER_02: And that's absolutely fine by us.
11:12
SPEAKER_02: And I don't get into debates with people about this either because you know, it's not my bag.
11:15
SPEAKER_02: If you want to argue with a chemist, there are plenty out there who want to have that argument.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and you know, chemists go in hard with everything.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: So I love that.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: But you know, I really, really um, I really appreciate that because I think, you know, when it comes to um green beauty, right?
11:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's like there's so many benefits medicinally that we've gotten as you know, as humanity in our in our history from plants.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: So to not go to that source for our ingredients is it's in my eyes foolish, right?
11:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we can get that rather than synthetically create something in a lab.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: So I like that you're you're behind this green beauty movement kind of thing, you know.
11:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I completely agree.
12:00
SPEAKER_02: And you know what else?
12:01
SPEAKER_02: It's recently I've started really researching the cosmetics industry, and those people who follow me, following me on social media will have seen me put out quite a few things because I really wanted to understand where we were as a society before the pharmaceutical industry took over and really started to dictate to us how we needed to look and smell and behave and you know, operate basically as humans.
12:22
SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's really interesting to see how DIY beauty was the norm.
12:26
SPEAKER_02: You know, I've even found a couple of recipe books recently dating.
12:29
SPEAKER_02: I got one from the 1530s in like old French, and my mother, who speaks French, she's she's uh reviewing some of it for me, and we're trying to lift out some DIY recipes, and it's hysterical because really not all that much has changed.
12:42
SPEAKER_02: You know, they're still using olive oil nowadays to you know sort of moisturize their hair, and there's a lot of eggs in there, I will say.
12:50
SPEAKER_02: But it's it's fascinating to see how really truly things haven't changed all that much because people still want to learn how to empower themselves by making their own beauty products because that's how it's always been.
13:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I love that you bring that up because you know, everyone I talk to, I feel like every brand founder has this amazing journey where it's like their grandmother concocted this thing, and they, you know what I mean, they put it on their face, and it was like a miracle worker.
13:15
SPEAKER_01: And I know my grandmother did that.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: You know, I grew up in rural India in the beginning, I was born there, and my grandmother used to make all these little concoctions and you know what I mean, and like coconut oil and you know, all these great ingredients, and it works so beautifully for for everybody.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: So I love that.
13:31
SPEAKER_01: I love that it's like kind of going back to the roots, you know what I mean?
13:34
SPEAKER_02: Exactly, and that's how I view it.
13:36
SPEAKER_02: And I think we as a society want to go back to our roots, and and I really want to help people get there by teaching them how to formulate because anyone can formulate and it's fun, yeah, yeah.
13:46
SPEAKER_01: I want to learn, I'm gonna be taking a lot of your classes seriously.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: No, I mean it because I I've see my background is also biology and medicine, but then you know, that whole formulation aspect is not something we ever learn in school, which I how do you feel about that, by the way?
14:00
SPEAKER_01: In colleges, they don't teach us the stuff.
14:02
SPEAKER_01: Like no, it's the science majors.
14:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
14:05
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I did four years of biology and a year of environmental science, and you know, obviously I did took chemistry classes.
14:10
SPEAKER_02: At no point did someone say, Hey, let's learn how to make a lip balm.
14:13
SPEAKER_02: I probably would have sat up and paid a bit more attention, actually, had they done so.
14:18
SPEAKER_02: Right, me too.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think things are changing now.
14:21
SPEAKER_02: I mean, here in the UK, we have the Society of Cosmetic Scientists, and they're really active in schools and they they do like science days at schools where kids make bath bombs and stuff.
14:30
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's how you're gonna engage the next generation to get into this.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I love that.
14:35
SPEAKER_01: I mean, honestly, okay, so I want to ask you like to run down, I know this is very difficult, but can you give us like a mini course in uh, you know, kind of what you teach and just for all the listeners out there that are considering starting their own skincare line, like, you know, any kind of advice you can offer, you know?
14:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, well, I think the first thing, if you want to get into natural skincare or hair care, because we teach that too, is really getting to know your ingredients.
14:59
SPEAKER_02: And the one thing I've noticed is that it really the ingredients really attract people to formulation because people get so excited when they have like a table full of herbs and and different oils and roots and seeds and petals, and everyone's like, oh my god, look at these beautiful colours and smells, and that's what attracts people in initially.
15:17
SPEAKER_02: So you have to really get to know your ingredients and have fun with them.
15:20
SPEAKER_02: And how we work is we teach you um to start simple.
15:25
SPEAKER_02: You have to learn how to walk before you can run.
15:27
SPEAKER_02: You know, often people come to us and they're like, right, it's my first formulation.
15:31
SPEAKER_02: I've never made anything before.
15:32
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna make a really high performance lotion.
15:34
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna throw every single high performance ingredient I have in it.
15:38
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna go for it.
15:39
SPEAKER_02: And then we're like, no, don't do that because you'll end up scraping it into the trash.
15:42
SPEAKER_02: And then the next day they're like, Yeah, I scraped it into the trash.
15:46
SPEAKER_02: Because you have to learn how to make the basics first.
15:49
SPEAKER_02: So we teach you how to create those basics.
15:52
SPEAKER_02: First of all, you know, you know, you start to cold blend, you start to warm blend, you start to blend oils together, then you learn how to emulsify, then you learn how to make gels, you learn how to make foaming products, and then step by step, as you've mastered the foundations, you start to layer in those more advanced ingredients until eventually you're creating something really safe and stable and sellable.
16:13
SPEAKER_02: And that's where a lot of our formulation graduates and students want to go.
16:17
SPEAKER_02: So we have a real methodology that we take people through on a journey, and yeah, they come at the end of it and they feel empowered to make any type of beauty product that they want for them or their families or their future customers, maybe.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's amazing.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
16:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's truly like a like a protocol to how to approach, you know, the beginning steps.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm interested in that because I know a lot of people always talk about when I interview brands, they say, Well, I went to a lab, you know, and they did all the formulation for me, or like, you know, I told them what I wanted and they made it.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: But it's like from my standpoint, it's like getting involved on like, you know what I mean, that one-on-one basis is so important for brands.
16:57
SPEAKER_01: So, how do you feel about like finding a lab and all that stuff?
17:00
SPEAKER_01: Like that whole idea for you know, um creating it depends.
17:04
SPEAKER_02: It depends entirely.
17:05
SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's nothing wrong with doing that.
17:07
SPEAKER_02: I know plenty of brands who've done that.
17:09
SPEAKER_02: It depends on the lab that you're working with, of course.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: It depends on how they operate, depends on their ethos, depends on their certifications, also depends on the ingredients they work with.
17:18
SPEAKER_02: So, some labs, for instance, won't work with certain ingredients because they either can't get them in in bulk or maybe they have to buy them in bulk and you're the only customer that wants to work with them, etc.
17:27
SPEAKER_02: So you have to find someone you really click with, and then you have to build up that relationship with them.
17:33
SPEAKER_02: And that can be hard if they're a big lab or big manufacturing facility, even.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, but there are ones out there that will work one-on-one with you and and allow you to put that secret indie beauty ingredient in there, which is the love that a lot of formulators bring to their formulations.
17:48
SPEAKER_02: And I think if you're working together closely with a formulator or a chemist in a lab, then you want to be able to put that love into your formulation as well.
17:57
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I've seen lots of people work with labs and there's nothing wrong with it.
18:00
SPEAKER_02: You just gotta you gotta find the right one and you gotta kiss a lot of frogs along the way, probably.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I know.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: And I've heard that.
18:06
SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, people will go down this road and they wanna find the perfect lab, and it's like multiple, like hundreds of labs that they go through.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I want to ask you, um, if somebody doesn't want to go that route and they do want to make something at home, um, what are your what's your advice?
18:23
SPEAKER_01: I know you mentioned hygiene and that's very, very important.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, but is that something that we can incorporate into like that, you know, that whole do-it-yourself kind of thing at home?
18:33
SPEAKER_01: Or do you think we really do need to be in a facility where um it is more controlled and whatnot?
18:39
SPEAKER_02: You definitely can meet good manufacturing practice at home, but obviously there are certain steps you have to go through in order to get there.
18:46
SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't generally recommend you use your kitchen because if you're anything like me, I have two kids, obviously, you know, I have a cat, there's lots of people running around the kitchen all the time.
18:56
SPEAKER_02: I'm never going to be able to meet the hygiene standards I need in my kitchen.
19:00
SPEAKER_02: But saying that, uh, I know a lot of our students set up a separate room or they have a small office, they have a component of their office.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: And if you can keep that clean and tidy and well ventilated, and you can make sure that all your ingredients are stored separately and all your products are stored separately and your packaging and that you have procedures that you create, then there's no reason why you can't do that.
19:22
SPEAKER_02: And I often like to talk about Estee Lauder, who started making her four products on a small burner, um, a small sort of hob in a kitchen, I think in New York.
19:32
SPEAKER_02: And I read it that way too.
19:34
SPEAKER_02: And I think a lot of the mainstream beauty industry forgets their roots often because that's how they were the first indie beauty entrepreneurs as well.
19:41
SPEAKER_02: So it is absolutely possible, but you have to make sure that you put checklists in place and processes, and we teach all of this in our courses.
19:48
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's not rocket science, it's just a little bit of bureaucracy that you have to get through to keep your products safe, to keep you safe, and ultimately to keep your customer safe.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: Of course, of course.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: Now, you know, one thing that pops to mind for me is COVID, obviously, right?
20:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're surrounded by it, and I feel like it's something that um we really need to consider when it comes to brands, because you know, oftentimes I'll see a brand where it's like a component where you, you know, pull out a dropper.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: And I just think to myself, there's so many options or there's so many possibilities of contamination here, especially because you know, there's viruses in the air and stuff like that.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: So, do you educate your students on like packaging and like how to work with like you know, more air-sealed packaging and anything like that?
20:34
SPEAKER_02: Well, first of all, when you follow good manufacturing practice, you need PPE, personal protective equipment.
20:39
SPEAKER_02: You know, you're wearing gloves, you're wearing a mask, you're wearing a hair net, you're wearing goggles, you're wearing an apron or a lab coat, you're wearing something on your feet, probably.
20:46
SPEAKER_02: So you're and you should never formulate when you're feeling unwell.
20:50
SPEAKER_02: That is, you know, like rule number one or two, basically, on the list.
20:54
SPEAKER_02: Um but obviously, you know, there are once you go through these checks and balances, then it it I don't think there is much risk in contaminating your formulations, I have to say.
21:04
SPEAKER_02: Um but yes, it's something that you as a formulator need to think about.
21:07
SPEAKER_02: You obviously need to make sure that your your formulations and your workspace are as clean as possible.
21:12
SPEAKER_02: They will never be sterile.
21:13
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we're not working in a hospital, we're not working in clean rooms, but what you ultimately want is that your your formulation is properly protected and that your your customer is properly protected with that.
21:23
SPEAKER_02: I haven't heard of people getting overly concerned about COVID in the the manufacturing process.
21:28
SPEAKER_02: What I have heard is the industry's been talking a lot about safe beauty since the pandemic started.
21:34
SPEAKER_02: And I personally think that's a load of rubbish because obviously all beauty should be safe.
21:38
SPEAKER_02: Right.
21:39
SPEAKER_02: Suddenly start being safe because we have a global pandemic on.
21:43
SPEAKER_02: So I've uh in fact, I even recorded a podcast on this with one of my colleagues a few months ago because we got so fired up about it.
21:50
unknown: Yeah.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: No, it's true.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: No, no, you're so right.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: Because what if what is safe beauty?
21:55
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
21:56
SPEAKER_01: It's like the same thing as anti aging in my eyes.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know what I mean?
22:00
SPEAKER_01: It it doesn't make any sense.
22:01
SPEAKER_01: It's an oxymoron in a way.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, I agree.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: And I think that you know, with COVID, I think there's a lot of marketing potential there, and I think a lot of these brands might even be buying into that, you know, the hype of yeah, you know, so but um I'm actually gonna ask you because I have a lot of um favorite plants or favorite um ingredients that are you know naturally derived.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: Like I I'm not gonna lie, I'm Indian, so I love turmeric, you know?
22:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, awesome.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: What are your some are your favorites?
22:30
SPEAKER_01: Like uh plant derived ingredients.
22:32
SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness.
22:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, I love rose hip.
22:35
SPEAKER_02: Like I've loved rose hip for such a long time.
22:37
SPEAKER_02: I mean, rose hip oil is superb, and it was probably my first love in terms of the ingredients I started to experiment with, and I it's not gonna go anywhere.
22:45
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that that sort of deep red hue you get in the oil is just utterly gorgeous.
22:50
SPEAKER_02: Um, I am very busy with Formula Botanica, so I don't grow as many herbs as I used to.
22:55
SPEAKER_02: I used to have a huge herb garden also on maternity leave.
23:00
SPEAKER_02: I was very busy that year having babies and doing something going on with yeah, with my baby in tow everywhere planting up all my my herbs.
23:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, chamomile has always been a big one for me as well.
23:12
SPEAKER_02: And I know it's very ubiquitous and not everyone likes the scent, but it is just phenomenal in how antibacterial it is and how antifungal it is, and just how incredibly powerful it is.
23:23
SPEAKER_02: I mean, there have even been clinical studies that have demonstrated that you know using chamomile on the skin for people with certain skin conditions has been more beneficial than sort of traditional eczema creams.
23:34
SPEAKER_02: So it is fantastic.
23:35
SPEAKER_02: And you said it earlier, you know, some of these plants have been around for millennia and they work, and we know that.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: And they've been sort of taken out of circulation by this need to go very, very synthetic over the last century, and now people are returning to it.
23:48
SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I've got loads of them.
23:51
SPEAKER_02: I mean, cornflower, marshmallow, rose, you name it.
23:53
SPEAKER_02: There's there's tons of them.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: Tell me about the marshmallow, because I've never understood that one.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: Like, how does that like I when I think of marshmallows, I think of s'mores, first of all.
24:03
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: And then I think of all fluffy, you know what I mean?
24:06
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know what it what really is marshmallow extract.
24:09
SPEAKER_01: What is it?
24:10
SPEAKER_02: Well, first of all, there are different types of mallow.
24:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, the marshmallow is a it's a beautiful pink flowering plant.
24:16
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I used to have it in my garden, I don't at the moment, um, but it has um a high level of uh mucilage in it, so it almost creates like a gel-like texture to it.
24:26
SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, it's often used, you can see it in cough throat, um, cough syrups and uh sweets often because it sort of soothes the throat because it creates that almost gel-like um coating on the throat, I believe.
24:38
SPEAKER_02: And you know, it's the same in skincare.
24:40
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it's not the sweets, and I think the sweets were originally derived from a mallow.
24:45
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
24:46
SPEAKER_02: I've never made one, but uh, yeah, it's a beautiful pink flowering plant.
24:50
SPEAKER_02: So I recommend everyone should try and grow it.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
24:53
SPEAKER_01: I might just do that.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: I've been thinking about garden, so you're giving me amazing ideas, by the way.
25:00
unknown: Cool.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: So okay, I want to ask you this because you know, my mother, my mother is very, she also grew up in rural India.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: And so when she was telling me a story that um growing up, they used to get these terrible acne and like itchy areas, and her and her mother, um, my grandmother used to use neem, so neem extract.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: And it was like, she said it's like a miracle extract, you know, every it's like, you know, when she was telling me this, I thought of chicken pox.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: Do you know how everyone gets really, really itchy?
25:29
SPEAKER_01: That's exactly what she's describing.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: And she said that neem, all they would do is like throw it into water, like cut the cut the plant, throw it into bathwater, and it was immediately alleviating.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: So have you heard of like have you uh heard of companies using neem in their yeah?
25:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:45
SPEAKER_02: I mean, neem is an incredibly uh powerful ingredient.
25:48
SPEAKER_02: I believe it's also very uh insecticidal.
25:51
SPEAKER_02: Um now I will say neem does stink.
25:54
SPEAKER_02: There's no two ways about it, it really stinks, which is why if you use it in your formulations, you want to keep it in quite a low percentage.
26:02
SPEAKER_02: I remember we had um we we used to run live events pre-COVID and we had a conference a few years ago, and we we used to run like workshops.
26:10
SPEAKER_02: And I remember one year we had guess that oil, which was quite fun.
26:13
SPEAKER_02: So we had all these students working in groups and we gave them little bottles of oil, and we had neem oil in there as well.
26:18
SPEAKER_02: And everyone was like, sniff, yeah, that's neem.
26:21
SPEAKER_02: You just know straight away.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: Valerian root.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: You know how Valerian root smells like absolute, like I don't even know how to describe it.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: It's the most terrible, terrible smell.
26:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it makes you really tired as well if you ever eat it or drink it.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, anti-anxiety, I think it's like a natural remedy for that.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, no, I'm interested because you know, the reason I ask you this is because of this Ayurveda aspect, right?
26:46
SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, um, in the Indian culture, Ayurveda, as you know, I'm sure, is like, you know, it's centuries old and it's a it's a beautiful practice, and there's so much knowledge in that realm, you know.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: So do you um do you kind of incorporate that into your classes at all, or do you get inspiration from that?
27:03
SPEAKER_02: Uh well, we don't teach people uh recipes, we teach them how to create their own formulations from scratch.
27:10
SPEAKER_02: So we basically say, okay, now let's take the example of a lip balm.
27:14
SPEAKER_02: We're going to include between X and Y percentage of oil, between X and Y percentage of wax, and between X and Y percentage of butter.
27:21
SPEAKER_02: And this is how you add essential oils into it potentially, but maybe you don't even need that.
27:26
SPEAKER_02: And so we then show you how one is layered together.
27:29
SPEAKER_02: We give you a few sample formulations, um, which you can follow, and you get a starter kit sort of uh shopping list to go out and and buy.
27:38
SPEAKER_02: Although we have a supplier that actually provides a starter kit, uh, which you have to pay for to our students.
27:43
SPEAKER_02: Um but then we want our students to go and really investigate the ingredients and the formulation styles that mean something to them.
27:51
SPEAKER_02: And we've had so many students go through our courses who are really into Ayurveda and they they bring that to their brands, they bring that to their formulations, they choose their ingredients based on that.
28:00
SPEAKER_02: Um, so we don't have a particular style, we just basically say, This is how you make one of these products.
28:06
SPEAKER_02: Watch us do it.
28:07
SPEAKER_02: Here's some examples, this is how you troubleshoot it.
28:10
SPEAKER_02: Here's some shooters to go and talk to.
28:12
SPEAKER_02: Now go and try and make your own.
28:13
SPEAKER_02: First of all, follow ours, then choose your own ingredients and go for it.
28:16
SPEAKER_02: And expect to have a few disasters along the way because you have to, because that's how you become a really good formulator.
28:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:22
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, we we totally we're totally into that.
28:25
SPEAKER_02: You know, we have people who come to us and they're into vegan or they're into paleo or they're into anything because you have to design the formulations that speak to you the most.
28:34
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: That's so yeah, I love that you give that free reign to people and you're not imposing anything on your students, you know.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really important.
28:43
SPEAKER_02: Um that's how you become a formulator and not a recipe follower.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, that's very, very important.
28:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the recipe following.
28:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can't have a cookie cutter approach to anything in life, I feel like, you know, so that's that's really, really interesting.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, one thing that does pop in mind for me is that um in terms of like um, you know, when it comes to science, right?
29:07
SPEAKER_01: So like I have a huge interest in clinical trials and you know, making sure that you're that people that are making skincare lines, although they're well formulated, there should be some science to back that up.
29:19
SPEAKER_01: And um I'm curious about what you think in terms of connecting um formulation with actual, you know, um scientific research and then showing those results in a lab.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: Is that something that um maybe you, you know, you incorporate in your courses, or may I don't know, maybe it could be a future direction?
29:39
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
29:39
SPEAKER_02: Well, there are I mean there are different aspects to the science.
29:42
SPEAKER_02: First of all, there's understanding the effects of your ingredients on the skin, and there is a lot of that information out there.
29:49
SPEAKER_02: A lot of that has been tested on animals, I will say, which isn't the same as obviously testing on humans.
29:54
SPEAKER_02: I would love to see more testing on humans.
29:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, a lot of that is also um in vitro testing rather than in vivo.
30:01
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, they're testing in a petri dish or in a lab rather than on actual subjects.
30:06
SPEAKER_02: Um, so you can't extrapolate necessarily.
30:08
SPEAKER_02: You can't say, because I've demonstrated that my lavender extract is anti-inflammatory, therefore it would also be anti-inflammatory if it's mixed with all these other ingredients in my formulation.
30:17
SPEAKER_02: But it gives you an idea of what you're working with.
30:20
SPEAKER_02: Then there's also the science of how does ingredient X work with ingredient Y?
30:24
SPEAKER_02: And that's more to do with chemistry.
30:26
SPEAKER_02: We don't teach chemistry, and we're very much of the belief that you don't need to be a chemist to be a formulator.
30:31
SPEAKER_02: It can be very helpful.
30:32
SPEAKER_02: It can also send you off down a rabbit hole that you don't want to go through.
30:36
SPEAKER_02: Um but basically, you when you're working with natural ingredients, particularly the oils, the waxes, the butters, the hydrosols, you can put these neat on your skin.
30:45
SPEAKER_02: You're not going to blow anything up, you're not going to create any disasters mixing them together.
30:50
SPEAKER_02: So it's more almost a bit like cookery rather than chemistry.
30:55
SPEAKER_02: Um, I was recently, I mean, I've just told you, I'm researching the history of the cosmetics industry and I was reading about the roots of L'Oreal.
31:01
SPEAKER_02: And um, L'Oreal was founded by a man in France who had some um very uh suspect uh beliefs, so we won't go into him too much, but he basically first of all wanted to create his own hair dye.
31:11
SPEAKER_02: And so he spent, I think, four years in his kitchen, much like all the indie beauty formulators around the world, mixing up different chemicals to try and create the world's first hair dye.
31:21
SPEAKER_02: And he had so many explosions on the way along the way in his kitchen that the police was called multiple times.
31:27
SPEAKER_02: Oh wow, yeah, I know, and so hence L'Oreal was born, basically.
31:32
SPEAKER_02: And that's what happens, you know, when you're mixing together chemicals without really know what can knowing what can happen.
31:37
SPEAKER_02: But when you're working with these plant-derived ingredients, particularly as I said, the butters, the waxes, the the oils, you know, you're pretty safe in what you're doing there.
31:46
SPEAKER_02: So we very much say go out and experiment and treat it like cookery and have fun with it.
31:51
SPEAKER_02: And then once you master the basics, start with the more advanced things after that.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: So, what about what about stabilization?
31:58
SPEAKER_01: How do you feel about that?
31:59
SPEAKER_01: Can you speak a little bit about the whole idea of stabilizing an ingredient and stuff?
32:03
SPEAKER_01: Because I don't think people really understand what that word means.
32:06
SPEAKER_02: Uh, well, cosmetic stability testing is incredibly important, and you shouldn't bring a product to market unless you've demonstrated that it's going to be stable for the duration of its shelf life and hopefully slightly beyond that, even.
32:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, so we teach, in fact, a whole course on cosmetic stability testing.
32:21
SPEAKER_02: It's not a beginner's course, it's not something I recommend anyone starts with until they've learned how to formulate.
32:26
SPEAKER_02: But we find a lot of people buy the whole package and they say, right, I'm gonna start with the foundations, learn the basics, and then I'm gonna move on to the more advanced things, such as natural cosmetic preservation, which we teach as well.
32:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, so you have to make sure that your product is stable in terms of heat, in terms of cold, in terms of light, in terms of moisture, in terms of its packaging, in terms of how it smells and looks.
32:48
SPEAKER_02: We have about 20 different cosmetic stability tests that we teach.
32:52
SPEAKER_02: You won't be able to do all of them yourself.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: Some of them you have to outsource because there are certain labs out there all around the world that will meet the required standards, which you just simply will never be able to do anywhere else.
33:03
SPEAKER_02: And the same goes for every brand, regardless of whether they're big or small.
33:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, it is an incredibly important thing because you don't want to buy a lotion that splits within two months.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: You don't want to buy a balm that changes color, you don't want to buy a toner that suddenly smells funky after three months.
33:20
SPEAKER_02: When you buy a product, you expect it to look and behave the way it does, the way it should.
33:26
SPEAKER_02: And that's something you as a formulator have to embed in the way that you set up your business.
33:31
SPEAKER_02: And it does come as a shock to people because they often think it's a test they do once and then they're done.
33:35
SPEAKER_02: But actually, it's something you do every single batch you create.
33:39
SPEAKER_02: So imagine I'm making a batch of a hundred lip balms.
33:42
SPEAKER_02: I will run a stability test on that particular batch, and I will probably keep back a sample as well that I can monitor and I will put one in the oven before I even send the batch out into the world, and I will, you know, put it through accelerated heat testing and cool it and see what happens when I freeze it, etc.
33:59
SPEAKER_02: And that's how I then know that the lip balms I'm selling will be stable and that my customers will be happy, and also that I won't get any product returns or complaints.
34:08
SPEAKER_02: So it's very important.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I, you know what the first example like pops to mind is vitamin C for me, because everyone's talking about the stability of vitamin C and they're like, you know, the oxidizing and all of that stuff.
34:20
SPEAKER_01: So it's like, you know, I just have a question, honestly.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: What what do you think is the best way to formulate a vitamin C serum?
34:27
SPEAKER_01: Like, do you think it's it's better in oil or water-based?
34:29
SPEAKER_01: Because I know it's a water-soluble vitamin.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: So I'm very confused about the formulation aspect of that.
34:36
SPEAKER_02: Uh, there are different types of vitamin C on the market.
34:38
SPEAKER_02: Um, in fact, we have a whole blog series on that on our website.
34:41
SPEAKER_02: So I don't know if you can link that with this.
34:43
SPEAKER_02: It might be easier to just explain the whole science rather than me going through it.
34:47
SPEAKER_02: Also, one of my tutors wrote it rather than me, and she'll be more au fay with it.
34:50
SPEAKER_02: But you're right, I mean, it does have issues with oxidization, also with uh photostability.
34:55
SPEAKER_02: So even in light, it's quite hard to work with certain types of vitamin C.
34:59
SPEAKER_02: And I think the same goes even for the bigger brands.
35:02
SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, it depends on what you're trying to create.
35:04
SPEAKER_02: There are more stable forms on the market.
35:06
SPEAKER_02: But as I said, if you if you'd be able to link to that blog post or if anyone's visiting formulabotanica.com, just type in vitamin C in the search box.
35:12
SPEAKER_02: And I think we've got about three articles.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: Formulabotanica.com.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be taking all of your classes.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm telling you right now, because honestly, I want to come out with my own line.
35:22
SPEAKER_01: So I'm not even going to lie.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:25
SPEAKER_01: So I can't I can't think of a better teacher than you.
35:27
SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
35:29
SPEAKER_02: Will you be bringing the Ayurveda into that?
35:31
SPEAKER_01: Uh, probably not, honestly.
35:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, I have this weird, you know, I I appreciate Ayurveda, of course, you know, and I and I have a great respect for it.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: But I think that it needs to be more scientifically grounded.
35:44
SPEAKER_01: And it there needs to be this idea of dosing, there needs to be this, you know what I mean?
35:48
SPEAKER_01: Like controlling of the ingredients.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: So um, that actually leads me to my next question for you is the whole dosing aspect.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: So, do you talk about percentages?
35:57
SPEAKER_01: I I know you mentioned this before.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: So, like the percent concentration in a formulation, and then um, I'm more curious about so each application, how much that user is applying to their skin.
36:08
SPEAKER_01: Is that something that um your students learn about, or is it just um it depends on the ingredients in your formulation?
36:16
SPEAKER_02: I mean, there will be certain limitations for certain lim uh certain ingredients.
36:19
SPEAKER_02: So let me take one group of ingredients as an example essential oils.
36:23
SPEAKER_02: Everyone's heard of them.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: I mean, they are hot at the moment, um, but there are dermal limits with essential oils, and this often seems to come as a surprise to the people out there who are pushing essential oils quite hard across social media.
36:35
SPEAKER_02: There is a lot of that out there, and often it's very irresponsibly done because you can sensitize your skin with essential oils.
36:42
SPEAKER_02: And we won't talk about the rest of your body.
36:44
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I see people do some horrific things on Pinterest and Instagram, but let's focus on cosmetics for the for the purposes of this interview.
36:51
SPEAKER_02: Um, so yes, you have to learn the the double limits.
36:53
SPEAKER_02: I mean, for instance, rose auto absolute um is is well known as being highly restricted, but no one knows this.
37:00
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it smelled heavenly, and you're like, what could be wrong with rose?
37:04
SPEAKER_02: But actually, yeah, you can only work with a teeny tiny amount in leave-on products.
37:08
SPEAKER_02: Same goes with jasmine, same goes with some of the sort of spices that that almost have a more irritating effect on the skin, such as cinnamon, for instance.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: So you have to learn the dermal limits and the safety to do with your essential oils, and only then will you really be able to create a responsible and safe formulation for use on the skin.
37:27
SPEAKER_02: That's a whole kind of worms in itself, which we do teach as well.
37:31
SPEAKER_02: And there are lots of different standards all around the world as well, uh, which we try and bring together in our courses.
37:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, in terms of dosing the actual formulation itself, yeah, as I said, it depends on what it is.
37:42
SPEAKER_02: I mean, there are certain formulations you probably shouldn't wear out in the sun, and you have a responsibility as a seller to tell people that, but you will learn that along the way as you're researching your ingredients because every ingredient behaves differently.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's a that's a great point.
37:57
SPEAKER_01: And you know, um, especially with something like sunscreen, right?
38:00
SPEAKER_01: Sunscreen is very tricky, I think.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, do you have do you teach about sunscreen formulation?
38:06
SPEAKER_01: No, we do not.
38:08
SPEAKER_02: That is like one of my red lines.
38:09
SPEAKER_02: We do not cross that line.
38:11
SPEAKER_02: No, we don't teach sunscreen.
38:13
SPEAKER_02: It is almost impossible to create a stable, safe sunscreen without um without a proper lab, first of all, but also without properly testing it.
38:22
SPEAKER_02: And even to get that SPF testing sign-off, you have to go through quite a lot of tests that are quite expensive as well.
38:29
SPEAKER_02: And I see indie brands occasionally just add like zinc oxide or something like that to their formulations and it clumps, it clumps at quite a small level.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: You can't see that either.
38:40
SPEAKER_02: So, what will then happen is your formulation might have a quite a high SPF in one part of it and no SPF in the rest of it.
38:47
SPEAKER_02: And you can't endanger your customers like that.
38:49
SPEAKER_02: You have to make sure it's properly blended, and you also have to make sure it's gone through the the rigorous testing required in order to sell SPF-based products anywhere in the world.
38:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
39:00
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
39:00
SPEAKER_01: I love that you don't cross that line.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: I think that's very important because when I think of sunscreen, I think of more of dermatology, and I think of, you know what I mean, like dermatological research and all that stuff.
39:11
SPEAKER_02: So um I really take this very seriously, you know, and it's the same.
39:16
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we've been doing RD on organic makeup formulation for gosh, like three, four years now.
39:21
SPEAKER_02: It's a it's a lot of work and it's a big undertaking.
39:24
SPEAKER_02: And for instance, one of the debates we're constantly having is around mascara.
39:28
SPEAKER_02: You know, oh really?
39:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, when you want to learn how to make formulations for well makeup, you're thinking, okay, I want eye pencils, I want eyeshadow.
39:37
SPEAKER_02: Everyone buys mascara, right?
39:38
SPEAKER_02: We need to teach people how to make it.
39:40
SPEAKER_02: But can you imagine people mixing up mascara in a in a situation where it isn't where they're not meeting good manufacturing practice?
39:48
SPEAKER_02: How do you do that?
39:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, are you endangering your customer along the way?
39:52
SPEAKER_02: So, this is a discussion we're having.
39:54
SPEAKER_02: You know, what do we teach our students?
39:56
SPEAKER_02: How do we make sure that everything they put out in the world is is safe?
40:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: So you're you're so, you know, it's both cosmetics and skincare then that you're working with, obviously.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: So um, in terms of like, okay, with mascara, I'm gonna ask you this because for me, it's the hardest thing to find a dark enough mascara to make my eyelashes stand out.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious.
40:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, right now I I've I've maybe have two brands in mind that create something that for my skin tone looks, you know what I mean, like looks good on me.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: So do you ever um do students ever ask you for advice about, you know, what can I use that's really, really going to cater to this need I have?
40:37
SPEAKER_01: Which, you know, if there's like an Indian um woman who wants to create this really, really dark mascara and she comes to you and says, Lorraine, tell me what should I use?
40:45
SPEAKER_02: I mean, do you do you advise them like that?
40:47
SPEAKER_02: Or uh well, basically the way all of our courses work, and I should add, we're not teaching makeup formulation yet.
40:53
SPEAKER_02: We are planning to.
40:54
SPEAKER_02: So that that's why we're still in RD mode.
40:56
SPEAKER_02: We teach skincare and hair care formulation at the moment.
40:59
SPEAKER_02: Uh, but hair care is another great example.
41:01
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we always I always wanted us to make sure that when we started teaching that course, we catered for all different hair types because you know there are so many different types of hair out there, and it's very easy to just go, hey, everyone has straight hair.
41:14
SPEAKER_02: Of course they don't.
41:15
SPEAKER_02: I mean, what an ignorant thing to say.
41:17
SPEAKER_02: Um so we tried to cater for everyone: curly, coily, wavy, straight, you name it, um, short, long, etc.
41:24
SPEAKER_02: And so we then expect our students to go and try and cater for those needs.
41:29
SPEAKER_02: And in our hair care diploma, for instance, you know, we very much say, okay, well, we we created, I mean, let's give you an example.
41:36
SPEAKER_02: We have a whole section on conditioners, leave-in conditioners, rinse-off conditioners, deep cleanse, deep conditioning ones, you know, sort of spray-in ones, all sorts of different kinds.
41:45
SPEAKER_02: And we then sent all of the sample formulations that we had in our diploma to different testers around the world who had different hair types because we didn't want to just sit there and assume that because the people making the formulations had a certain hair type, that everyone else would like that as well.
42:00
SPEAKER_02: And we then put that feedback in our courses as well and said, well, you know, the people we worked with who had this hair type, they loved it.
42:07
SPEAKER_02: The people who had this hair type, they weren't that big a fan because X, Y, and Z.
42:11
SPEAKER_02: We encourage you to, you know, try it out for your hair type, work with the potential customers that you'll be working with and see how it works for you.
42:17
SPEAKER_02: So it's again, it's about that experimentation.
42:20
SPEAKER_02: And the same will undoubtedly happen with colour cosmetics when we finally branch out into teaching that as well.
42:26
SPEAKER_02: Um, in fact, we've we've been working with a makeup artist already for the last year as part of the research and development that we're doing because it's so important that we fully understand how people apply these products before we suddenly start teaching something that may not be entirely suitable.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:41
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, I love that.
42:42
SPEAKER_01: I love your scientific approach, seriously.
42:45
SPEAKER_01: It's like you're truly following the, you know what I mean, like the scientific protocol, the scientific method.
42:51
SPEAKER_01: And I really love seeing that.
42:53
SPEAKER_01: That's so cool.
42:54
SPEAKER_02: It's important to me.
42:55
SPEAKER_02: It's really important that we're not out there teaching pseudoscience.
42:58
SPEAKER_02: And you know, occasionally we'll come up against a snarky chemist online, but generally people don't have much beef with us because A, we're not out there vilifying synthetics, B, we're not causing a stink because we're just trying to put positivity out there in the world.
43:10
SPEAKER_02: And C, you know, I really want people to create safe, stable, and sellable cosmetics using amazing botanical ingredients.
43:18
SPEAKER_02: And I think we try and hit those, tick those boxes, and we manage pretty well.
43:23
SPEAKER_02: And that's of course why we are where we are at the moment.
43:25
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it's it's really important to me.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: So when are we gonna see your line come out?
43:31
SPEAKER_02: Well, I've worked like 60, 70 hours a week, so I don't really have time to do that at the moment.
43:36
SPEAKER_01: You need to have another baby so you get motivated, and then on maternity leave, you can come out with a line.
43:42
SPEAKER_02: There's one thing like spoiler alert, I'm not having another baby.
43:46
SPEAKER_02: It's just not gonna happen.
43:49
SPEAKER_02: No, I I'm really happy teaching at the moment, and you know what?
43:53
SPEAKER_02: We have big growth plans.
43:55
SPEAKER_02: You know, we want to sign up 10,000 new students a year.
43:58
SPEAKER_02: We brought out a membership site uh this year called the Lab at Formula Botanica, where people can um, it's almost like a continuing professional development type training where every month we put out mini training courses, and that already has like 1,500 members.
44:12
SPEAKER_02: We're growing that exponentially at the moment.
44:14
SPEAKER_02: Very, very exciting times for us.
44:16
SPEAKER_02: So I I'm gonna have to have all hands on deck for the next couple of years as we keep up with the growth that we're anticipating.
44:22
SPEAKER_02: Because Formula Botanica, you know, I intend for us to go massive.
44:26
SPEAKER_02: I want us to be a household name because anyone can formulate and I want us to teach them.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: And I and I wish you the best of luck with that.
44:35
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm gonna promote you to everybody I know because I know that when I learned about you and I and I researched, I was so, so enamored by your mission and and what you guys are doing.
44:45
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's a it's truly a service.
44:48
SPEAKER_01: It is because there's so many young entrepreneurs out there and they don't know the first thing about formulation.
44:54
SPEAKER_01: So you're you're doing amazing work.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: You're doing thank you so much.
44:58
SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate the kind words.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: Well, um, Lorraine, that's all the questions I had for you.
45:03
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much again.
45:05
SPEAKER_01: Seriously, thank you so much for coming on the show.
45:07
SPEAKER_01: It's it means the world to me.
45:09
SPEAKER_01: It really does.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: So um, everyone out there listening, please follow Formula Botanica.
45:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, check them out.
45:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to link that post that you mentioned, um, the blog post, and um leave any comments you guys have on the cover art for this episode.
45:23
SPEAKER_01: And if there are any questions for Lorraine, um let me know in the cover art and I'll pass them on to you, Lorraine.
45:28
SPEAKER_02: Um thank you very much.
45:35
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46:43
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