Latest / Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh / Understanding Female Hair Loss

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Understanding Female Hair Loss · Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh

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Welcome to another episode of Chatting with the Experts where I speak with
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phenomenal women from Africa, from the Caribbean, and in the diaspora.
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These women are successful professionals and entrepreneurs, and they share
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my mission, which is to educate, empower, and inspire women globally.
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We sometimes have a few men join us, but 99% of the time it's women.
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Today we are gonna be talking about a topic that I think is
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really, really necessary and it's Understanding Female Hair Loss.
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My guest who will be joining me in a few minutes says that hair
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loss, especially in women, is a major concern in today's society.
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She says it is often misunderstood or dismissed as a cosmetic issue.
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In this session we'll explore the types of hair loss we'll explore
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also uncover underlying causes, we'll address emotional impact and
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highlight ways that women can reclaim confidence and embrace support systems.
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My guest is a licensed trichologist, entrepreneur, and a proud Winston-Salem
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State University, that is WSSU alumni.
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And she has a powerful legacy of service, leadership and community impact.
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She is a proud owner of Sketches Beauty Studio, which was recognized in 2004
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by Hollywood Hair Magazine as one of North Carolina's top three salons,
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and she's earned national acclaim as a celebrity stylist and beauty educator.
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Please welcome the phenomenal Michele Todd Davis.
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How are you, Ms. Paula, my sister, and thank you.
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Thank you so much for having
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me today.
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Absolutely.
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I wanna thank you for saying yes to being a guest on my show.
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And you know, I also wanna thank you for doing such phenomenal work, such
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great work with female hair loss.
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I remember when you started talking about it in, probably
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it was 2006 or around that time.
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And yeah, you've come a long way since then, but, you
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know, let's talk about this.
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How did you get into this in the first place?
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Do you have a story?
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Actually, I do.
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As you know, we moved from Charlotte in 2006 out to California and prior
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to moving, we would take vacations in different states and I would
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study and look at other salons to see what people were doing
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across, you know, across the coast.
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Mm-hmm.
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Well, when I got out there to California, I noticed that there was a
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lack in the places that I had visited.
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And so after the move, I went to work for Yamaguchi.
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I won't go into that whole story how we got there.
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However I noticed that there were women coming into the resort from
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Canada, from, you know, in and out of the country, basically.
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Mm-hmm.
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And there were needs that weren't being met.
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Pretty much people were resorting to hair weaves, braids, what
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we consider protective style or protective styling today.
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And, I started, I actually started the search.
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I'll tell you a little story about myself, personal story.
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We were living out there in California and doing a lot of running with my
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daughter who was in the cello running track, playing different sports.
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And somebody caught a picture of me because I'm accustomed to being
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on the side of the camera where I'm taking pictures of others.
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But I noticed in the picture.
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One whole side of my head looked shallow, but I never noticed it because every day I
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would shampoo my hair, brush it back into a ponytail, and because it was wavy, it
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just, you know, it was just what it was.
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I'd pull it in a ponytail.
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Never noticed a thing until I saw this picture.
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Then I started doing research on hair loss and tricology because I personally
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was experiencing it and wasn't aware that I was having the experience.
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So the stressors, it was multiple stressors because I think sometimes
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we think stress has to be a bad thing.
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You can have stressors in your life that are actually positive things going
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on, but causing stressors internally that you don't even notice, right?
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Mm-hmm.
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And so as women, I think sometimes we need to look at the broader picture
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of what that means, because unrealized stressors can affect what's one of
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the hormones, our adrenal glands, and we'll talk about that a little later.
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But those are things that sometimes we actually overlook.
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Mm-hmm.
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So long story short.
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Well, fast forward, I found a trichologist in California and
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started doing my study back in 2006.
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And over time I realized the need with hair loss is not just something
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we do topically, but internally in terms of diet, exercises, minimizing
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circulation, certain modalities that we have to add in order to increase growth.
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So once I started learning these things and finding proper
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nutritionals to add to my meals.
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We started having some progress and the rest was history.
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It was one of those things that, it's not a one size fits all, but
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we have to find what works for us.
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And today I'd like for us to discuss that duality as we converse today.
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So that was my start leading into trichology hair loss and and so forth.
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Wow.
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Well, there's nothing, you know, better than hearing someone's story and how
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they got into sometimes the things that they later on become passionate about.
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'cause I know you're very, very passionate about not just well, I shouldn't say just.
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Only about the physical things that can contribute to hair loss,
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but also as you mentioned, like nutrition, you know, stress.
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You said there's good stress.
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Is there good stress?
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Because you said not all stress is bad, but stress-related thinning and you know,
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as you mentioned, even medical conditions.
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So, many times we women, as we said, because of societal expectations of what
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we call, what we understand is beauty.
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You know, we have a lot of what we call in our community protective hairstyle.
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And I heard offline, I mean, when you and I were talking, we
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talked about traction alopecia.
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What is that?
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Because, oh yeah, what is that?
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So traction alopecia.
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You know how, when and let's go back to childhood.
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Mm-hmm.
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You remember there was a time where we would pull our kids hair real tight 'cause
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we want 'em to have this smooth, straight.
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Yeah.
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Braid.
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Nobody wants any crinkly hair, but that's our natural hair, right?
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Mm-hmm.
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Well, we're pulling against a follicle in that root.
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That's unnatural to the hair.
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I'll give you.
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Let me back up a second.
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This is how funny God is, so this is how He worked.
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To us, hair is terribly important, right?
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Mm-hmm.
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The vanity of a thing, to our bodies, hair is not important.
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So when we think about the systems in our body, hair is the least
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important to the body, but the most important to us physically.
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I always say God created the hair to be our x-ray.
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And so when we see something happening, we know something
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internally might be happening.
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Mm-hmm.
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And I'm jumping and, but this is gonna be related to the traction alopecia as well.
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When our bodies are lacking in anything, minerals, nutrition, it pulls from the
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hair because it's the least needed.
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Then you notice your nails start breaking, or you might notice something
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going on with your skin because we can't see our organs inside.
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So when these things are occurring, it's time for us to go and do
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something else, but I'm gonna come back now to traction alopecia.
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When we are pulling and tugging and trying to find styles that we call
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protective without adding something to bring the pH down in your skin
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on your scalp, protective styles may not be as protective as we think.
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Which can cause traction, which is a pulling and a
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tugging at the hair follicle.
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So then you start seeing edges missing.
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Yes.
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Or when people are using clip-ins, you start noticing little spots
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that look like areata alopecia.
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Hmm.
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And one thing that we like to do, what we found to be a good mode of protection
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for the hair is bringing down the balance of the hair as well as the scalp.
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Well, the scalp as well as the hair.
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'cause people focus on hair, but we never focus on our scalp.
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Sure.
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Correct.
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And that's where the traction comes from.
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It's a scalp issue.
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So we have a therapy that we use and it's actually called scalp therapy.
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So, and doing scrubs and exfoliating, but what it's also doing is
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opening up the mouth of that follicle so hair can push through.
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You and I were talking about, female pattern baldness, male pattern ball.
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Well, we'll stick with the female pattern baldness.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Because we know as we age as women, our estrogen is reduced.
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Mm-hmm.
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But our testosterone is increased.
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And I know the term, people probably have heard the term DHT, which is the hydro
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testosterone and everybody's producing it.
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And we're finding people younger and younger.
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It's being produced in their bodies.
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But years, probably, gosh, I couldn't tell you dates, but years ago we
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heard of Nioxin and Minoxidil and steroids to be applied to the hair.
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Mm-hmm.
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They were designed to open up that follicle so hair could come through.
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Mm-hmm.
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The problem is when you stop taking it, it minimizes and it and then
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there, it's almost like a cement on the scalp, but DHT is clogging that pore.
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Mm-hmm.
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That follicle.
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So hair can't be produced.
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That's where, I don't know if I should pull this down because you
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probably cannot see it on the screen, but I will put that in the screen.
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Okay.
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Deca scalp, can you see that?
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Yes, I can.
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I can.
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Yes.
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Satin scalp therapy.
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Deca plus scalp therapy.
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This is gold in a jar.
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This is Bitcoin.
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This is probably one of the most well-kept secrets.
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I'm saying well-kept secrets because the company doesn't really advertise.
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We teach other stylists how to give clients what they need within.
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So it's one of those things that you won't see advertised
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across the television waves.
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So it keeps it very reasonable.
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Product line is very, very reasonable.
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But when I say this product has done exactly what it says it's going to
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do, it does exactly what it says it's gonna do if you do what you're
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supposed to do in terms of using it.
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And I don't want to divvy off into that, but it's essential
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oils and the pH of it is at a 4.5.
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So with, Hey.
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Okay, let's go back a minute.
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With our bodies and our bloodstreams, we talk about pH a lot.
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You hear pH, this pH that and products being pH-balanced.
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But do they tell you the number of the pH?
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We've learned in trichology that there are neutralizers and normalizers for hair.
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You remember when relaxers were very popular?
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Yes.
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And people were saying over time, oh, it's breaking my hair
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and it's taking my hair out.
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Or it's, you know, all the things.
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Well, really relaxers weren't bad thing.
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The bad thing was, is we didn't understand how to truly and
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properly bring down the pH.
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'cause most companies didn't understand that then.
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So if you have a relaxer that is at a pH of a 14, that's the highest
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it can go because it's designed to open up, do its job to rearrange
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bonds, straighten the hair back out.
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And then you need to come in and close it with your neutralizer.
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But a neutralizer, a neutral pH is a seven.
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Mm-hmm.
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The proper pH for hair is below a six and a five.
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So between a four and a six is a proper range for hair.
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Mm-hmm.
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But if you've gotta neutralizer or normalizer that's a seven.
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You are not even bringing it down to where the hair needs it to be.
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That's why the hair breaks?
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That's why the hair breaks.
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And so we learned that over time.
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But that wasn't because I've been in this industry 40 years.
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We didn't know that back then.
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Oh, right.
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We coat hair with conditioners.
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People go home and say, oh, I got this because it's softening the hair.
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It's coating your hair doesn't mean it's penetrating into the hair.
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'cause most molecules are too large.
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But because of advertising and it sounds good.
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We go with what the bottle says without having full understanding.
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So, you know, you touched on something, which is, these days we have so much
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more knowledge about a lot of things, hair including because we, for many
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years, you know, especially our type of hair, we just wanted our hair to look
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good without thinking about anything.
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You know, how is it really affecting our hair?
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How it's affecting us too, you know?
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And so now, I mean, you're such a good teacher, you are explaining how
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these things work and giving us even a better understanding of when we go
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to the store, even when we would have styled it, when we understand the, you
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know, what's actually happening with our hair, then we make better choices.
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Absolutely.
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So I have a question.
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So does that also... explain why hair loss in women can be different from hair
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loss in men because men don't do half the things that we women do with our hair.
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Absolutely.
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Well, partly because still you gotta think internally with DHT, if you are not
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going in because you can't change that.
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That's the internal part.
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Mm-hmm.
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Now, once the hair comes above the epidermis, then once it's out where we
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can handle it, what we do is the cause.
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What women do, 'cause you know, we'll go buy anything if it
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looks good, you know how we do.
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah.
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It's got to be fancy.
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It's got to be bright lights and shining, and then we're going forward.
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But some of the chemicals that and I'm learning.
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I'm constantly learning daily.
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Mm-hmm.
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Some of these products that we have been using, if we go in and read ingredients.
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Some of these things are cancer-causing issues, right?
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Mm-hmm.
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Some of these things we can have reactions to because it's foreign to our bodies,
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and so if we have hair breakage or hair loss, we could be having reactions.
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Mm-hmm.
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That's one reason why I keep it very simple in terms of what I decide to
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do, because people will call me and tell me, oh, I heard about this.
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Did you hear about this?
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Can we try this?
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Well, send me some ingredients first.
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I mean, if we can try it, it doesn't mean it's not gonna produce nice
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results momentarily, but long term, what are we gonna have happen?
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Important, important to know.
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Just think about, there was a product line that was out there, was very
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popular and hair, everybody's hair looked beautiful upon the initial usage of it.
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Mm-hmm.
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But over time.
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Because a very important component was missing.
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Mm-hmm.
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People started having breakage.
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People started having issues, and all of a sudden it disappeared.
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So it was a quick end.
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Now that product wasn't necessarily bad.
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Mm.
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But over time, anything in over... I'm not gonna say improperly used
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because how it was designed to be used was fine, but there was a piece
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in between that needed to happen for it to work effectively long term.
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And so that's the thing that we don't realize the in-between pieces,
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because now we have, what is it?
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Instagram.
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I think it's Instagram, you know?
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People are coming on with these...
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TikTok?
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Quick, instant looks, and...
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Yes.
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We think we can do them at home.
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And then I'm getting calls because, oh, I need you to fix my actual hair.
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Mm-hmm.
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Behind the glues, the sprays.
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It's a big thing.
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But again, God is interesting because he knew we would be so vain that this
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is one way he could get our attention.
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Mm-hmm.
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What's through our hair and a lot of the things that people
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are doing doesn't have to be bad.
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The protective styles, the braids, the weaves.
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My suggestion is to make sure you understand pH balance
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of your skin and your scalp.
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How do we get to understand that Michele?
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PH balance.
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Well, by these kind of conversations.
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Alright.
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Because it's not a common thing, because it's not the pretty, the
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lights, you know, it's not the
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mm-hmm.
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The bright stuff.
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Mm-hmm.
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It's the nest, the foundation.
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Mm-hmm.
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Getting back to foundational things is where I think we miss
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the boat in a lot of circumstances.
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Mm-hmm.
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And Mr. Mason, you know, you asked the question, men don't have the same
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thing as women because they don't.
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You'd be surprised.
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Men have a whole... I've seen a guy literally do this technique
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where he sprays adhesive on scalp and shaves hair weave onto, and it's
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so natural you would never know.
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But there again, there's adhesive clogging, so you're gonna have to
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keep doing that because guess what?
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Somebody's not going in and protecting the scalp in-between.
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So that's where trichology, that's where the education piece comes in,
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because you can do these things, but let's protect in between.
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You can put a bandaid on something, but don't you need to put alcohol on it first
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to get the bacteria out and then cover.
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We wanna just put a bandaid on it.
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We don't wanna clean up the surface.
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Yes.
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So that's where our conversations are needed.
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Okay.
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Whoa, this is eyeopening.
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You know, because many times, okay, let's call spade a spade.
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Women are into looking good for the most part.
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We like to look good and so there are lifestyle factors that come into play.
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You know, the chemical treatment, you talked about that.
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There's some products out there that are not necessarily bad.
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Well, some of them you said you really do need to look at the ingredients
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because some of them can cause cancer.
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I know that this is where you probably want to name them, probably offline.
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We could talk about that, but not online.
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But we don't know, you know, hairstyles, we go and do the, you know, that's, I
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guess where it comes into, you know, the loss of the hairline, et cetera.
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You talked just now about adhesives and as you said, they're covering the
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follicles, you know, and if you don't remove it, then how does the hair breathe
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or how does the hair grow through?
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You know, there's so many, many, many conditions and so many things
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now that you're making me even think about and, you know, educating us.
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And that's what this program is all about.
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So I'm gonna digress a bit from just the looking good to talking
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about like, as women we have hormonal shifts, we got menopause.
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For those who are older, the younger women, pregnancy and birth control,
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how does that come into play?
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Is that something you can talk about?
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How it affects us?
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Well, it.
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So when we talk about hormonal changes, you know, there's a gland, a
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hormonal gland, the adrenal gland that
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mm-hmm.
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You don't hear a whole lot about, we don't do a lot of discussing, but the
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adrenal gland, if when we're triggered by stress, we think about stress.
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Mm-hmm.
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We just think we're stressed and we think about heart conditions.
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We just think the word, but the adrenal gland is one of those
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hormonal glands constricting, it releases and it sits over our kidneys.
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So, you know, we've got umpteen issues, kidney, liver disease, and we don't.
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We're not fully aware of the stress, stress causing the
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adrenal gland to constrict.
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It's similar to the hair follicle.
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When you have a constricting blood flow, it minimizes blood flow, so we
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don't get blood flow to the heart.
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We are not getting blood flow to the hair bulb.
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See, there's things we just can't see.
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Mm-hmm.
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That's why I say they're good stress.
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There's bad stress, but when the adrenal gland is affected, that's where, and
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I hate to say the term, you know, when they always say stress can cause death.
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Yes.
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That's because we're affecting that particular gland.
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And it's really a part of our endocrine system.
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And I'm trying not to go too far into it, but those are reasonings where
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death and some of these major issues occur with us with heart disease,
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liver disease, and kidney disease.
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So from the beginning, let me go back a minute.
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'cause you asked the question, stress causing hair loss.
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Mm-hmm.
24:50
That's one of the reasons why the constriction of blood.
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Well, the constriction of the adrenal gland.
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Mm-hmm.
24:58
Which caused constrictions to the blood vessels.
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So if we don't get circulation, and part of what we talked about with
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the therapy, that's one of those modalities that can cause circulation.
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But at the same time, then it goes to how do we do some exercises and some
25:17
things to keep our functions going.
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That's where the exercise piece comes in.
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There's a tool and I didn't wanna talk about that just yet.
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But there's a tool that we use.
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We do electrotherapy treatments, and it's a radiation that you can do on the scalp.
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You can actually do it on the face to get blood flow circulating
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from an inner cellular layer.
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Now we can do massage, but that's more of a surface level, but to go
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intercellular electrotherapies are very important parts of those treatments.
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And that's a part of the trichology, you know, that's the trichology piece.
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But as far as menopause, pregnancy stress, all of those trigger
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go back to a adrenal glands.
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Mm-hmm.
26:13
So how do we manage menopause?
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How do we manage pregnancy?
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Yeah, probably let's talk more about menopause now, because the people, the
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women who are really on this my show for the most listeners, lemme see.
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My target audience are women 40 and above.
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So they will come into more of the... for the most part, the menopause, you know?
26:42
So is that a question?
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Or are we sharing some things that people,
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I'm asking that basically like we talked about hormones and hormonal shifts and
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how that affects our hair loss, and I'm saying if we have to address hair loss,
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let's talk about menopausal women as opposed to childbearing women, because
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the target audience are mainly menopausal.
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That's what I'm saying.
27:08
Exactly.
27:08
Uhhuh.
27:09
Okay.
27:10
Well with menopause and strategies, I touched on it a little bit already
27:16
because these dualities have to be combined with multiple things, but
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I will say there is a product and I was trying to not go into product so
27:28
much, but in terms of product usage.
27:34
There's a, I don't know if you've heard of Lolavie.
27:36
I used it back in the salon years ago when I was in Charlotte.
27:39
I don't know if you remember, and I'll make sure to have a link that
27:46
you can go on to take a look maybe.
27:49
But sometimes with the foods that we eat, even if we are vegetarian or,
27:56
well, I won't even say vegetarian, but doing vegetables, eating our chicken,
28:02
our fish, you know, the things that we consider the proper diet, have to remember
28:10
in society how... we got to a place where farmers began milking cows
28:19
more for weight than for nutrition.
28:24
So what would happen is, instead of milking and getting the weight
28:31
where it was, they would milk until the cow ulcerated because they
28:36
were selling for weight, right?
28:40
You remember years ago when we were young, people didn't have what is it called
28:45
where people have allergies to milk.
28:48
What was it?
28:48
What's the term?
28:49
Maybe lactose intolerance.
28:50
Lactose intolerance.
28:52
Lactose intolerance is just simply a form of getting milk
28:57
that has probably been ulcerated.
28:59
Milking and now all of a sudden society can't drink milk or needs something added
29:05
to in order to digest because our systems, it's foreign into our systems, right?
29:11
Mm-hmm.
29:11
Chicken, they cage the chicken.
29:14
You know, you notice cage-free eggs are a popular thing, but they're way
29:17
more expensive, and I would advise purchasing those because the ones that
29:23
get to roam free don't have the same cortisol stressors because chickens, if
29:29
you are caged, you are now stressed.
29:31
Yeah.
29:32
So if we're eating a chicken or an egg from a caged bird.
29:39
The cortisol effects are now, now we are taking that in.
29:44
Yes.
29:45
Yes.
29:45
And we don't think about those parts of it, but that's something that's very real.
29:51
And we're not talking about that part, because that's the part we can't see.
29:56
Yes.
29:56
And so what we find is, I wanna say probably after the eighties
30:03
you notice you had more lactose intolerance, overweight kids.
30:08
'cause we had a period where children were obese people were doing more fast foods.
30:14
We were doing things that are causing detriment to our own bodies.
30:20
So by the time we get into the menopause stage, as my mom, she could take garlic.
30:26
She didn't have the same issues that occur with us now, praise God.
30:32
I had a long menopause situation, you know, pre perimenopause, but it
30:39
wasn't as bad as some people have because I thought about the things
30:44
my mom did, which is the garlics.
30:46
I did my leves.
30:48
So I had added nutritionals.
30:51
I understood about how food works and keeping my pH, my blood alkalized
30:57
because, so here's another funny story.
31:00
Hair, we need to be more on the acidic, below a neutral state.
31:05
Bloodstream, we need to be more alkalized.
31:09
Wow.
31:09
So that's, it's healthier.
31:12
Alkalinity is healthier in the bloodstream, but for the hair,
31:16
alkalinity can be dangerous.
31:18
And cause
31:19
That's Right.
31:19
Breakage because it's opening things.
31:22
Right?
31:23
Wow.
31:24
Wow.
31:25
Michele.
31:25
So those are something, ma'am?
31:27
No, go ahead.
31:28
I'm sitting here bowled over by all what you are sharing.
31:32
I'm thinking we gotta do a part two, a part three of this, because there's
31:35
so many things that we would need to still touch, touch on, you know, like,
31:39
you know, understanding the nutritional deficiencies you just talked about, you
31:43
know, like lactose intolerance coming from milking cows because of the weight
31:49
and then if you have been ingesting that as a young person and then now you're
31:53
menopausal age, how that too, in terms of could have helped or not helped, but
31:58
contributed to your hair loss and how hair loss now is different than it probably
32:03
was, or probably is more pronounced now.
32:04
It's more common, I think off camera.
32:06
You've mentioned that it used to be like 3 million women experiencing
32:11
hair loss and in the eighties,
32:13
30 million.
32:14
Yeah.
32:14
And now is 30 million, you know?
32:16
No, just in 2008, like back in 2006, 2008.
32:22
Mm-hmm.
32:23
I wanna say the numbers were maybe 3 million American women.
32:28
Mm-hmm.
32:29
To date, it's over 30 million.
32:32
My God.
32:32
That's just American women.
32:34
Yeah.
32:34
That are experiencing hair loss.
32:36
Mm-hmm.
32:37
So it's steadily increasing, but now, you guess who we see with hair
32:41
loss children, you notice how many children that are walking around
32:47
in hair weaves and artificial, and then you gotta think about the hair.
32:52
It's so much to talk about, but so much to talk about because of time.
32:56
We are gonna have to put this on pause for now because we have people in the audience
33:03
who wanna ask you questions, et cetera.
33:08
I know we're gonna have to continue this conversation.
33:10
Again, we probably have to do a series on this 'cause this is so
33:13
enlightening and at the same time scary.
33:16
But someone who's listening to this who hasn't had the opportunity
33:20
to be in the audience today, how can they get in touch with you?
33:24
Michele, are you on Facebook, LinkedIn, phone number?
33:29
I am.
33:30
So do you want me to just share it?
33:32
You can just mention it.
33:33
And so my Facebook page...
33:34
Mm-hmm.
33:35
Is Michele Todd Davis and that's Michele with one L. M-I-C-H-E-L-E.
33:42
Do I put it in the chat?
33:43
Will it be?
33:43
I'll put it in the chat.
33:45
I'll put it in the chat.
33:46
Okay.
33:47
Facebook?
33:48
Facebook and my email address would be sketchessalon.@hotmail.com.
33:58
Okay.
33:59
And my LinkedIn profile, I want to say is Michele Davis.
34:09
Don't worry.
34:09
We'll put it in the chat.
34:10
Don't worry about that.
34:11
And we'll put it in the show notes.
34:13
Don't worry about that.
34:14
Yeah.
34:15
Sounds beautiful.
34:15
So people listening.
34:18
You can get in touch with her.
34:19
'cause as you can see, Michele is very knowledgeable about hair loss.
34:24
I mean, because this is a woman's show, we are talking more about female hair loss.
34:28
But hair loss is not gender based.
34:31
Men also experience this.
34:33
So I wanna thank you, Michele, and also for coming on the show.
34:38
But I also wanna say to those listening in and those in the audience
34:41
that if you'd like to be a guest on this show, please reach out to
34:44
me on chattingwiththeexperts.com.
34:48
That's my website.
34:49
I'm on LinkedIn as Paula Okonneh.
34:53
My Instagram handle is at chat_experts_podcast.
34:59
I'm also on Facebook as Paula Okonneh.
35:03
I have a business page there too.
35:05
And we have a YouTube channel.
35:07
Please subscribe to my YouTube channel, which is Chatting with the Experts
35:12
where you can hear from phenomenal women and a few men, all about the many
35:19
issues that are affecting all of us.
35:23
And because the whole premise of this show is to educate and
35:28
empower and inspire women globally.
35:30
There's so many entrepreneurs.
35:33
There's professional women and a few men who will be sharing
35:37
things that can empower you, can inspire you, and can educate you.
35:41
Thank you so much, Michele, for being such an informative guest, and
35:46
now we'll open up the floor to the audience so those who've joined us so
35:50
that they can ask you questions that we didn't have time to address today.
35:54
Thank you again.