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LED Lights are a Danger to Humanity | Jerm Warfare · UK Column Radio

0:03
Speaker 1: Thank you.
0:30
Speaker 2: My name is Jerm. This is Jerm Warfare, the battle
0:33
Speaker 2: of ideas. It's been a few years. Nisa Khan, thank
0:37
Speaker 2: you for joining me again in the trenches.
0:41
Speaker 1: It's my pleasure, Jeremy. Yes, it has been a few years,
0:44
Speaker 1: so looking forward to refreshing the conversation.
0:48
Speaker 2: I've had a number of requests actually asking questions to
0:53
Speaker 2: have you back on because very, very few people discuss
0:58
Speaker 2: the dangers of LED lighting and it's everywhere. I was
1:01
Speaker 2: recently in China and it's everywhere. It's everywhere, everywhere, everywhere.
1:07
Speaker 1: Yes, it is everywhere. China is a place where they
1:11
Speaker 1: are overdoing it. But every other big city, almost the
1:16
Speaker 1: same story. It's getting extremely difficult to drive. People have
1:22
Speaker 1: given up driving at night, myself included, during the day
1:27
Speaker 1: because I am sensitive to light. light activities, which is
1:37
Speaker 1: a very tricky thing because just about everything in existence
1:43
Speaker 1: is related to a light activity, which is both a
1:49
Speaker 1: spatial concept and a time transient or temporal concept, and
1:54
Speaker 1: they work together. So the mathematics of it is very
1:57
Speaker 1: difficult and people just simplify it, but the reality is
2:02
Speaker 1: they work together And this is the way human beings
2:06
Speaker 1: relate to everything that happens around us. So whether we
2:11
Speaker 1: can do the mathematics or not, we are humans and
2:14
Speaker 1: we are experiencing light the way, you know, the natural way,
2:18
Speaker 1: and there's nothing we can do about it. So there
2:21
Speaker 1: are more sensitive people who see these light activities, and
2:26
Speaker 1: there are people who don't. And lucky for them, because
2:29
Speaker 1: those of us who do are going a little bit crazy.
2:33
Speaker 2: So just for those who don't know, you're a physicist
2:36
Speaker 2: and an electrical engineer, founder of IEM LED lighting technologies,
2:43
Speaker 2: if I remember correctly. And also you authored a book
2:46
Speaker 2: called Understanding LED Illumination, I think back in 2013. Is
2:49
Speaker 2: that right?
2:51
Speaker 1: That is correct. So when I wrote the book, there
2:57
Speaker 1: were a few novel things explaining the basic problem of
3:01
Speaker 1: LED lighting. And it was interesting that it did somehow
3:07
Speaker 1: pass the review. Some people objected to it, but I
3:11
Speaker 1: then came up with a very strong rebuttal. And the
3:15
Speaker 1: book was published by the world's largest scientific and outside
3:22
Speaker 1: of scientific publisher, Taylor & Francis. Their scientific arm is
3:31
Speaker 1: called CRC Press, which goes back over 100 years. So
3:37
Speaker 1: it was very nice of the the main editor of
3:43
Speaker 1: CRC Press to pick up on what I was saying.
3:46
Speaker 1: So she supported me and she understood what I was saying.
3:51
Speaker 1: So the book, although it was peer-reviewed, complained by a
3:56
Speaker 1: few people because they didn't want some things published, we
3:59
Speaker 1: did get it published. And so the good news is
4:04
Speaker 1: just about 99% of the book is mainstream. So it
4:11
Speaker 1: is a very popular book around the world now, used
4:14
Speaker 1: in many, many big universities around the world, including Japan, India, Europe. Europe,
4:20
Speaker 1: that includes Germany, France. In the U.S., there is about
4:24
Speaker 1: something like 800 universities, Canada, and Australia. So the good
4:31
Speaker 1: news is, you know, many people are benefiting because I
4:34
Speaker 1: speak their peer-reviewed language most of the time. with one
4:41
Speaker 1: caveat that basically says that flat light is a problem.
4:45
Speaker 1: And I actually prove it. And then in 2024, I
4:51
Speaker 1: wrote another book. And by 2024, I am now out
4:56
Speaker 1: of mainstream. And that is by choice. And I have
5:03
Speaker 1: decided to not publish anything through this mainstream peer review.
5:08
Speaker 1: So I went and published a book in 2024 on
5:13
Speaker 1: my own through Amazon. It's self-publishing, and it's called Blinding
5:18
Speaker 1: LED Headlights, the Biggest Blunder of Modern Science. So in
5:22
Speaker 1: that book, I explain more thoroughly what is the root
5:27
Speaker 1: problem in math and physics and engineering that people are missing.
5:39
Speaker 1: People don't recognize what they're measuring is really not what's
5:43
Speaker 1: really happening and what, as I said before, what humans
5:46
Speaker 1: are experiencing. So in order to bring in the reality
5:50
Speaker 1: of what humans are experiencing, you really need to solve
5:53
Speaker 1: a 3D problem. and not a 2D problem. And we
5:57
Speaker 1: discussed that last time because you are a wonderful cartoonist,
6:02
Speaker 1: and of course cartoons are fun, but at the same
6:06
Speaker 1: time they're 2D. So, you know, 2D has its uses, applications,
6:13
Speaker 1: but at the same time what we experience is in
6:17
Speaker 1: three-dimensional reality. And that three-dimensional reality has to use a
6:23
Speaker 1: more comprehensive, realistic math and physics. So that's what I
6:28
Speaker 1: explain in the book. Yeah.
6:30
Speaker 2: So you said that you can speak in peer-reviewed language.
6:33
Speaker 2: My hope is that you will not do that with
6:35
Speaker 2: me and that you'll speak on peasant-level language. Because this
6:40
Speaker 2: is quite a complicated topic to wrap your head around.
6:45
Speaker 2: But your core argument is, It's unique. I think everybody
6:51
Speaker 2: kind of knows, we kind of feel that there's something
6:54
Speaker 2: different and something perhaps wrong about LED lights. We can't
6:57
Speaker 2: quite pin it. One of the common arguments is that, well,
7:00
Speaker 2: it's the blue light. We must just remove that. But
7:03
Speaker 2: it's not actually that that you're arguing. You're saying that
7:06
Speaker 2: LEDs themselves are flat radiators. They're very, very small, flat chips.
7:12
Speaker 2: And the sun or candlelight or even an old incandescent
7:17
Speaker 2: light bulb doesn't operate like that.
7:19
Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly. So you are 100% correct in all you're saying.
7:24
Speaker 1: And I find it a little bit of humor in
7:29
Speaker 1: all of this because nature seems to be, nature has
7:35
Speaker 1: a sense of humor. So if light comes out of
7:40
Speaker 1: a three-dimensional rounded structure, the illumination that it produces happens
7:50
Speaker 1: to be flat. On the other hand, if light is
7:55
Speaker 1: generated from a flat generator, the illumination it produces in
8:00
Speaker 1: three-dimensional space is not flat. It is vibrating bizarre and
8:07
Speaker 1: it is not stable. And that is what's messing up
8:12
Speaker 1: people's minds and eyes and so on. The whole experience
8:19
Speaker 1: is bad. So it's really interesting that on one hand,
8:24
Speaker 1: a flat radiator produces a three-dimensional bizarre activity of light
8:30
Speaker 1: occurrences in space-time, but a spherical source or any source
8:36
Speaker 1: that has a curved exit where light comes out of,
8:42
Speaker 1: like an incandescent light is actually a coil, so it
8:45
Speaker 1: is not flat. So in the coil then, the light
8:50
Speaker 1: that comes out is really quite uniform. in three dimension,
8:56
Speaker 1: and it's very calm. And this is where calculus becomes important.
9:00
Speaker 1: I know people dread that word, but calculus basically is
9:05
Speaker 1: just natural mathematics. So natural mathematics kind of shows you
9:11
Speaker 1: that this averaging effect coming out of curved surfaces is
9:18
Speaker 1: a really calm situation in terms of the illumination that
9:22
Speaker 1: it produces. And that is why in nature, you will
9:28
Speaker 1: not find a flat radiator. They're all manmade. And we
9:34
Speaker 1: need to be careful. And this is actually ancient knowledge
9:38
Speaker 1: that Archimedes put ships on fire using flat mirrors. So
9:47
Speaker 1: he would take the sunlight, collect it, concentrate it, shoot
9:51
Speaker 1: it at a ship far away. And then that concentrated
9:56
Speaker 1: light then will put the ship on fire. You can
9:59
Speaker 1: do the same thing with a magnifying glass, actually, from
10:03
Speaker 1: the sun. And you can put a piece of paper
10:08
Speaker 1: on fire. It's the same thing. So once you start
10:11
Speaker 1: concentrating electromagnetic radiation or light activity on an object, in
10:20
Speaker 1: a small concentrated region, then this is something nature doesn't do.
10:28
Speaker 1: But only man can do that. And we need to
10:31
Speaker 1: be careful.
10:32
Speaker 2: So obviously in front of me, as you can probably guess,
10:34
Speaker 2: I've got an LED shining on my face because I'm
10:37
Speaker 2: in a dark room. Now, I can't sit here for
10:41
Speaker 2: more than an hour because my eyes start getting sore. Yet,
10:44
Speaker 2: put me in front of a fire and I can
10:46
Speaker 2: look at that fire for the entire night.
10:50
Speaker 1: Exactly. Exactly. So this is nature and nature created us
10:57
Speaker 1: naturally and we are used to what nature naturally has
11:03
Speaker 1: around us. And if we mess with that because we
11:07
Speaker 1: think we're smarter than nature or something and we can
11:11
Speaker 1: go do this because it's more efficient and we can
11:14
Speaker 1: go make this gadget, that gadget. By all means, this
11:18
Speaker 1: is why fiber optics makes a lot of sense. If
11:22
Speaker 1: you're going to make something efficient coming out of flat things,
11:25
Speaker 1: keep it contained and keep it far away from our eyes.
11:28
Speaker 1: Keep it in the pipe. Let me not see it.
11:32
Speaker 1: But if you let it out, like LED lighting and
11:35
Speaker 1: wireless radiation, wireless radiation is the same thing. It's not
11:41
Speaker 1: visible because there's only a visible region where we see
11:47
Speaker 1: electromagnetic radiation. But if it's in the microwave region or
11:51
Speaker 1: some such thing, that's, again... peer-reviewed type of language, but
11:56
Speaker 1: be that as it may, microwave radiation we don't see,
12:01
Speaker 1: but there are people who feel it and they get sick.
12:05
Speaker 1: You know that. And that's happening all around the world.
12:10
Speaker 1: You know, it's just like, okay, I don't see it,
12:13
Speaker 1: but I feel horrible and I'm getting sick. It's happening
12:16
Speaker 1: to people all around the world. I know a number
12:18
Speaker 1: of people who are suffering and, you know, a lot
12:24
Speaker 1: of podcasts and other things have been, you know, generated
12:30
Speaker 1: based on this truth in the last many years.
12:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I mean, on a slightly more technical level,
12:37
Speaker 2: because I've been thinking about this ever since you and
12:40
Speaker 2: I spoke last, you explained to me last time that
12:43
Speaker 2: LED lighting, because it's little chips that are all put together,
12:49
Speaker 2: the spectrum is different, the intensity is different, and it
12:53
Speaker 2: works at very unnatural angles. Is that correct?
12:59
Speaker 1: That is correct. So, the concept of angle... is actually
13:06
Speaker 1: a three-dimensional concept. Now, if you again do cartoon science,
13:11
Speaker 1: it looks like angle is just on a flat sheet
13:16
Speaker 1: of paper. You draw a circle and all angles is
13:21
Speaker 1: over 360 degrees. Well, in 3D, you don't have 360 degrees.
13:29
Speaker 1: you actually have something, a concept called solid angle. And
13:33
Speaker 1: people who know a little bit more sophisticated math know
13:37
Speaker 1: that in solid angle in 3D, they all add up
13:40
Speaker 1: to what we call four pi steradian. Now, let's just
13:44
Speaker 1: say that and not go there. But the idea is
13:48
Speaker 1: that you have a solid cone and it goes all
13:51
Speaker 1: around and it covers all the angles in three-dimensional space. Now,
13:56
Speaker 1: within this angle now, if, again, electromagnetic radiation or light
14:03
Speaker 1: is generated from a flat surface, over this angle, there
14:10
Speaker 1: is a bizarre spatiotemporal light activity going on that is
14:17
Speaker 1: so unnatural. that if your brain picks it up, if
14:23
Speaker 1: your biological system picks it up in any way, you
14:27
Speaker 1: are going to start shaking and feeling very, very sick
14:31
Speaker 1: and unnatural. And it doesn't happen to everybody. That is
14:37
Speaker 1: the other interesting thing. in nature that it turns out
14:43
Speaker 1: at this point in time, two thirds of the people
14:46
Speaker 1: in short term are not feeling it. But the long term,
14:51
Speaker 1: you better believe everybody is getting affected. Because long term
14:57
Speaker 1: is what aggregates and it adds up.
15:00
Speaker 2: Which also explains why a fire or a candlelight can
15:04
Speaker 2: be so relaxing and an LED light puts you on edge.
15:09
Speaker 1: That is exactly the reason. You've summarized it extremely well.
15:16
Speaker 1: So again, nature is not creating these flat radiators at all.
15:23
Speaker 1: It will never do that. When it does that, for example,
15:30
Speaker 1: sometimes it can do that temporarily. And it is local.
15:37
Speaker 1: Sometimes when you go look at the ripples in a
15:42
Speaker 1: stream and the sun is shining on it, you can
15:46
Speaker 1: see this dazzle in a stream. And that can start
15:53
Speaker 1: to bother some people. So what you need to do
15:57
Speaker 1: is just look away and not focus on it. But
16:03
Speaker 1: it's temporary. Anyway, any local flat surface, flat enough, it
16:12
Speaker 1: has to be bigger than just a real tiny, you know, localized.
16:19
Speaker 1: It has to be a little bigger than. So sometimes
16:22
Speaker 1: the wave ripples are flat enough and large enough that
16:27
Speaker 1: this dazzle can really create an uncomfortable feeling. So, yeah,
16:35
Speaker 1: nature does it once in a while, but it is
16:38
Speaker 1: really temporary and you can take care of it by
16:41
Speaker 1: just moving away and whatnot. But other than that, it
16:44
Speaker 1: is really what the type of light activity, you know,
16:52
Speaker 1: spatial temporal light behavior that nature produces is exactly like
16:57
Speaker 1: the fire. candle and sunlight and so on and so forth.
17:02
Speaker 1: And we are all happy with all of that. We
17:08
Speaker 1: have been.
17:09
Speaker 2: So the underlying issue here is that LED is 2D
17:14
Speaker 2: and real light would be 3D. And again, I'm going
17:17
Speaker 2: to say an incandescent light bulb because that is a
17:21
Speaker 2: 3D light and an LED light is based on chips.
17:25
Speaker 2: Is there a way to How do I ask the question?
17:30
Speaker 2: Is there a way to simulate 3D with 2D or
17:34
Speaker 2: is there a way to evolve 2D into 3D? In
17:38
Speaker 2: other words, can ADD ever get close to real light?
17:44
Speaker 2: The answer is no. And the reason has to do with.
17:52
Speaker 1: Another peer-reviewed technical term that... Go for it. It's called
18:00
Speaker 1: the Fourier transform. And, of course, Fourier had nothing to
18:04
Speaker 1: do with it. It's just called a Fourier transform. And what,
18:09
Speaker 1: in essence, it does, it relates a local phenomena with
18:16
Speaker 1: a global phenomena. So a light activity, an occurrence, spatiotemporal occurrence, locally,
18:34
Speaker 1: you can take the Fourier transform of it and find
18:37
Speaker 1: out globally how it behaves. So if you can do
18:42
Speaker 1: that mathematics and if you understand how that works, which
18:46
Speaker 1: I can, I can teach and I can demonstrate, you know,
18:52
Speaker 1: I can demonstrate not just with arguments, but actually desktop
18:57
Speaker 1: demonstration and actual practical demonstration. Showing that how it works
19:04
Speaker 1: actually then shows that once you generate this flat light behavior,
19:11
Speaker 1: there is nothing you can do to change it. And
19:16
Speaker 1: that is something that I have been pushing for a
19:19
Speaker 1: very long time. And I think in my first book
19:24
Speaker 1: that I published in 2013, it's also written there that
19:28
Speaker 1: once you generate this thing, you're doomed. So that is
19:36
Speaker 1: very natural mathematics and that is the three-dimensional real natural mathematics.
19:42
Speaker 1: And it's important for for our community around the world
19:47
Speaker 1: to learn it. If the technicality is too difficult, it
19:53
Speaker 1: can certainly be taught practically to see how it all works.
20:00
Speaker 1: And I think that that is something that everybody is
20:03
Speaker 1: going to find very interesting. People of all ages are
20:06
Speaker 1: going to say, oh, wow, you know, just look at
20:09
Speaker 1: how this works. And I think that if we can
20:14
Speaker 1: improve our education system, it would be very, very useful.
20:18
Speaker 2: I'm thinking of it like this. If somebody's playing a
20:20
Speaker 2: guitar and it's out of tune and they keep playing
20:23
Speaker 2: an out-of-tune guitar, it will bother me immensely, but not
20:29
Speaker 2: necessarily harm me. What you're arguing is that ADD can
20:33
Speaker 2: actually harm you.
20:35
Speaker 1: Yes. So... Sound basically is also the same thing as
20:44
Speaker 1: light because it is a spatiotemporal occurrence. It just happens
20:49
Speaker 1: to be defined by the average size of light. Another
20:58
Speaker 1: peer-reviewed term, but they sometimes use wavelength and whatnot.
21:03
Speaker 2: You are welcome, by the way. Sorry, you're all welcome
21:05
Speaker 2: to use technical language, but I might have to ask
21:08
Speaker 2: you a few questions if you do. Sure, sure.
21:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. So... I'm lucky to have a very wonderful companion, colleague,
21:23
Speaker 1: if you will, Dr. Alan Rayner, who is a natural scientist.
21:26
Speaker 1: He's based out of the UK. He was a full
21:29
Speaker 1: professor at University of Bath. And so he had to
21:34
Speaker 1: leave mainstream after he recognized that there is natural occurrence
21:42
Speaker 1: and then there is what people are insisting out there
21:45
Speaker 1: that he didn't agree with. But having said that, basically, light.
21:58
Speaker 1: Sound, they are all natural occurrences that happens like this. Okay,
22:05
Speaker 1: so the energy is moving like this. So then when
22:09
Speaker 1: the energy is moving like this, locally, you take that
22:17
Speaker 1: energy and you average it based on how much of
22:21
Speaker 1: it is makes sense within the averaging in a particular situation.
22:28
Speaker 1: So because sound, sound just has a different size of
22:40
Speaker 1: this thing versus light, okay? So sound is a little
22:47
Speaker 1: bigger and light is faster. Okay, so that is the difference.
22:52
Speaker 1: But the entire thing cannot be separated. They're together happening
22:59
Speaker 1: continuously in space. Now, when we average it out for
23:07
Speaker 1: a particular situation, then we end up with a different
23:14
Speaker 1: average value. And that different average value then sort of determines,
23:23
Speaker 1: gives us an idea that the average activity, the average
23:31
Speaker 1: light activity, average power flow, if you will, whatever the term,
23:37
Speaker 1: whether abstract or real, doesn't matter. It just, our experiences
23:43
Speaker 1: are different. So going back to the sound, then, If
23:50
Speaker 1: you create a bad sound with your guitar, you're going
24:01
Speaker 1: to recognize it. you're going to recognize it and say, well,
24:06
Speaker 1: you know, it kind of sounds too sharp and this, that,
24:10
Speaker 1: the other. But is it overall bad? And the question is, yes,
24:20
Speaker 1: it can be. But at the same time, basically, then
24:27
Speaker 1: if your brain is averaging it out, it is not
24:33
Speaker 1: as it is not as fast acting situation as light
24:41
Speaker 1: happens to be. So whenever things are fast, we don't
24:46
Speaker 1: have too much control over it. So when light activities
24:54
Speaker 1: is fast and it is unnatural, like the LED light,
24:59
Speaker 1: a flat light thrown out in open air, it's something
25:03
Speaker 1: that will bother us more than, as you said, the
25:08
Speaker 1: sound will.
25:10
Speaker 2: Does that make sense? But it can also give you
25:12
Speaker 2: a headache as a result because it's coming through your eyes.
25:16
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. This is very, very important what you
25:20
Speaker 1: said because the eyes, again, are very precious. The way
25:27
Speaker 1: the eyes work for us is It is very, very
25:34
Speaker 1: sensitive and it includes all of what's going on. It
25:42
Speaker 1: doesn't leave anything behind. It includes in an analog fashion. Okay,
25:49
Speaker 1: it is not, it has any gaps or anything. It
25:52
Speaker 1: includes everything. And when it includes everything, then your brain knows,
25:58
Speaker 1: oh my God, This is unstable. This is something that
26:03
Speaker 1: is really bothersome.
26:04
Speaker 2: That speed that you're talking about of LED, is that
26:10
Speaker 2: why LED car lights can blind you at night, whereas
26:15
Speaker 2: the older lights, the halogen lights, wouldn't blind you nearly
26:18
Speaker 2: as much?
26:20
Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly. So the LED headlights, again, because of its
26:27
Speaker 1: huge size, and the thing is, LED headlights are aggregated
26:36
Speaker 1: by a whole bunch of flat chips together. And then
26:40
Speaker 1: what happens is that when you add up all of
26:43
Speaker 1: these flat chips on a flat plane, the result, The
26:52
Speaker 1: energy flow, the analog energy flow is huge. So it's
27:01
Speaker 1: big and it is vibrating like crazy. It's fast and,
27:09
Speaker 1: you know, it feels a lot worse than sound just
27:14
Speaker 1: because of how fast and big it is.
27:18
Speaker 2: But also worse than the old school halogen headlights.
27:22
Speaker 1: That's right. So halogen, again, because halogen does not have
27:31
Speaker 1: any flat surface, it's all 3D, and the illumination or
27:40
Speaker 1: the light activity it produces in space-time together is... is, is,
27:50
Speaker 1: is calm and it is, it is, it is actually flat. That's,
27:56
Speaker 1: that's that, uh, and nature's sense of humor, you know,
28:01
Speaker 1: flat light produces really unstable jittery activity. And then, um,
28:08
Speaker 1: curved light produces calm, flat activity. Yeah.
28:14
Speaker 2: I mean, if I were to imagine what you're saying, um,
28:17
Speaker 2: If I were to draw it, I would draw just
28:21
Speaker 2: like an S shape, like a curve, which would represent
28:24
Speaker 2: natural light like a fire or a candle and a
28:27
Speaker 2: very sharp sort of up-down vector that looks like maybe
28:32
Speaker 2: a V or a W to represent LED, which would
28:36
Speaker 2: have unnatural points at each end. Is that kind of
28:39
Speaker 2: in the right direction? No, it's not.
28:41
Speaker 1: Okay.
28:46
Speaker 2: Okay. All right. I'll back off.
28:51
Speaker 1: No problem. It is very, very tricky. And it took
28:56
Speaker 1: me some time to figure this out myself. So this
29:03
Speaker 1: is what I've been calling is a Lambertian. Okay. So
29:12
Speaker 1: this Lambertian... the Lambertian light distribution is actually a sphere.
29:23
Speaker 2: Oh, which is why my S idea doesn't work. I understand.
29:28
Speaker 1: Okay. Exactly. So, and this sphere is not the same
29:33
Speaker 1: sphere as the sun because the sun is the illumination
29:41
Speaker 1: is flat. The illumination from a Lambertian, which I have published,
29:53
Speaker 1: quite a few times. It is in the new book
29:55
Speaker 1: in 2024 with color and everything on it. And it
29:59
Speaker 1: is tricky to figure out what those colors are representing.
30:02
Speaker 1: You will see it's a rainbow color type of Lambertian,
30:13
Speaker 1: if you go in the 2024 book, it's all in color. So,
30:19
Speaker 1: and that rainbow color distribution is this bizarre light distribution
30:26
Speaker 1: in space-time that is actually representing more than 3D. It's actually,
30:35
Speaker 1: in a way, 4D. because it's spatiotemporal. And that gets
30:44
Speaker 1: to be really kind of confusing. But at the same time,
30:50
Speaker 1: if we sort of break it down, what it all means,
30:55
Speaker 1: then we can see that how such a light distribution
31:00
Speaker 1: can really freak us out.
31:03
Speaker 2: Something else I was thinking about, Nisa, is if I
31:06
Speaker 2: light a match, that little flame, it naturally creates a
31:11
Speaker 2: full light spectrum. LED would create an artificial light spectrum,
31:16
Speaker 2: am I correct?
31:19
Speaker 1: That is correct. So, it's interesting. It's artificial, but it's
31:30
Speaker 1: artificial in the sense that nature doesn't do it. But
31:36
Speaker 1: at the same time, nature... Nature includes the possibility. Okay,
31:42
Speaker 1: so that's the interesting part that this bizarre electromagnetic or
31:53
Speaker 1: light distribution in a ball that at every angle, at
32:00
Speaker 1: every solid angle, it is showing a distinct behavior. spatio-temporally.
32:11
Speaker 1: And your mind picks it up, all of it. There's
32:16
Speaker 1: nothing you can do about it. Your mind picks up
32:19
Speaker 1: all of these infinitesimal or infinitely many different ways of
32:27
Speaker 1: jitter and instability and all of that from this bizarre
32:35
Speaker 1: Lambertian ball. Okay, so the only thing that we need
32:46
Speaker 1: to do responsibly is to not create it in the
32:49
Speaker 1: first place. And ancient knowledge included that thou shall not
32:57
Speaker 1: create this thing. Everybody knew that. But in modern era,
33:04
Speaker 1: we've decided that, you know, we're going to do it.
33:09
Speaker 1: For whatever reason.
33:11
Speaker 2: How does LED affect nature?
33:14
Speaker 1: Oh, it's bothering the heck out of them. You know,
33:20
Speaker 1: animals do not like it. And animals are similar to
33:26
Speaker 1: human beings in terms of capturing just about every distinct...
33:35
Speaker 1: behavior of light or electromagnetic activity in space time. So
33:43
Speaker 1: animals are very, very bothered by it. Plants are bothered
33:47
Speaker 1: by it. Every natural entity is bothered by it. All
33:56
Speaker 1: of it. And again, it is something that we Thou
34:04
Speaker 1: shall not do it. It's something that our ancient ancestors,
34:13
Speaker 1: they knew it very, very well. Just don't go there.
34:17
Speaker 2: Regulators like the FDA and NHTSA, I think, and many
34:22
Speaker 2: others all over the world will argue that there's no harm.
34:26
Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure. I mean, might is right, you know, and
34:34
Speaker 1: they are more popular and they are obviously claiming that
34:39
Speaker 1: AI and everything else is just what they say are
34:47
Speaker 1: the way to go. And, you know, they're more popular
34:52
Speaker 1: and they're going to do it. Anyway, and it is political.
34:57
Speaker 1: And so, you know, this is what we're facing right now.
35:03
Speaker 1: So we're outnumbered. We're outnumbered, but... But never outgunned. No,
35:13
Speaker 1: we're not outgunned. And they know darn well what they're
35:16
Speaker 1: doing also. You know, if they want to expedite the
35:22
Speaker 1: extinction of humanity or whatever the goal is, you know,
35:29
Speaker 1: if nature... Nature means, I mean, it's supposed to get
35:36
Speaker 1: all destroyed and recreated anyway. But do we as human
35:42
Speaker 1: beings get to decide that? And I do not agree
35:47
Speaker 1: with it, but we will face whatever the fate comes.
35:54
Speaker 2: It's obviously a very difficult battle to fight because everything
35:57
Speaker 2: around us now is LED. I was recently in the
36:00
Speaker 2: UK and I was joking with my friends about having
36:05
Speaker 2: incandescent light bulbs. And they said they cannot buy them there. Now,
36:08
Speaker 2: I can still buy those light bulbs fairly easily here
36:11
Speaker 2: in South Africa.
36:13
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, um, we're lucky in the U S, um,
36:18
Speaker 1: we can, we can still, um, buy them. Um, it's, it's, uh, lower,
36:23
Speaker 1: lower wattage and, and, and so forth. Um, so, uh,
36:29
Speaker 1: I just use many of them. Um, and, um, so, Yeah,
36:35
Speaker 1: I mean, in some places they are available and other
36:40
Speaker 1: places they have completely banned it. So you're stuck with
36:46
Speaker 1: using LED lights. But, you know, it's a difficult situation.
36:53
Speaker 1: So there's no question about it.
36:55
Speaker 2: What, in your opinion, would be that slow cumulative damage
37:01
Speaker 2: caused by LEDs, let's say over 25 years or even
37:02
Speaker 2: 50 years?
37:07
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I am not sure if I
37:19
Speaker 1: really know the answer to that. It's hard to know
37:30
Speaker 1: what our sensory perception and the way we experience light is.
37:39
Speaker 1: and what's happening with all of that in sort of
37:44
Speaker 1: an aggregate way. So whether or not we can get
37:49
Speaker 1: used to it and this, that, the other, I really
37:55
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, I think that in the long run,
38:00
Speaker 1: because we human beings do not miss anything.
38:07
Speaker 2: We really.
38:10
Speaker 1: Include all of the light activity, spatial temporal activity. It's
38:18
Speaker 1: all we are experiencing and it's all part of us.
38:23
Speaker 1: So whether or not some artificial activity put in there
38:30
Speaker 1: in certain amounts, what that's doing to us in the
38:34
Speaker 1: long run and how it's changing us, I don't know.
38:42
Speaker 2: But would you say that LEDs are aiding in the
38:47
Speaker 2: collapse of humanity?
38:52
Speaker 1: I think so. I think so. Because ultimately what will
38:57
Speaker 1: happen is that there is resurgence of... of humanity and,
39:10
Speaker 1: and creation. So, and, and this is, this is very important. What's,
39:16
Speaker 1: what nature and, and at the helm of nature it's
39:22
Speaker 1: actually all physical. And that's something that, again, Dr. Alan
39:31
Speaker 1: Rayner and I recognized, that it is actually a physical phenomena,
39:39
Speaker 1: what this natural reality is. So at the helm of
39:46
Speaker 1: physical phenomena, is this really interesting concept called space. And
40:01
Speaker 1: this space is also physical, but it has a very
40:07
Speaker 1: special property. And this space is the source of creating
40:18
Speaker 1: what comes after as nature. Okay, so what happens is
40:25
Speaker 1: that you have the source, which is physical, a particular very,
40:31
Speaker 1: very special physical property, if you will. And then that
40:40
Speaker 1: physical entity then uses an energy, circulation, combines it and
40:52
Speaker 1: creates what Alan calls a nature with a capital N. Okay?
41:02
Speaker 1: So that nature with a capital N, after it lives
41:05
Speaker 1: through its period, gets destroyed and goes back to this
41:13
Speaker 1: physical entity called very special space. And it goes back
41:24
Speaker 1: and forth, and this is how the nature, as well
41:30
Speaker 1: as the source of nature, works together. And that is
41:36
Speaker 1: something I recently discovered, figured out and it was just
41:45
Speaker 1: amazingly illuminating. And I had to, I had to use
41:50
Speaker 1: the language. Yeah, it was, it is, it is very
41:56
Speaker 1: punny actually. It is extremely punny. And, um, and I,
42:03
Speaker 1: I am just amazed how right Ellen has been all
42:06
Speaker 1: along and in his, in his language and description and everything.
42:12
Speaker 1: And the whole world has been ignoring him. And by
42:18
Speaker 1: working with him, there was an epiphany where I caught
42:24
Speaker 1: on and he was so happy that I caught on.
42:28
Speaker 1: And then what happened in more recent days is that
42:37
Speaker 1: I went back to... this basic description that exists in
42:48
Speaker 1: a particular book, if you will. And that book happens
42:57
Speaker 1: to be, believe it or not, the Quran. And it's
43:06
Speaker 1: very interesting what Muhammad said, that the Quran is the
43:12
Speaker 1: basic description truth you need but do not forget you
43:16
Speaker 1: will not find everything in it your job is to
43:22
Speaker 1: take the basic and find through your own living a
43:28
Speaker 1: servicing life the remainder of the truth yeah and for
43:34
Speaker 1: that you need to go east and for that he
43:41
Speaker 1: encouraged people to go to India. And that is all
43:49
Speaker 1: in the Quran, but people misunderstand it. And it is, again,
43:57
Speaker 1: humanity is so interesting, or the artificial humanity is so interesting.
44:03
Speaker 1: Hindus believe they've got it all, and they do, but
44:09
Speaker 1: they don't have the basics right. They have the recipes right.
44:14
Speaker 1: And they don't care because the recipes work. And it
44:19
Speaker 1: is such a vast amount of knowledge, all the Ayurveda,
44:22
Speaker 1: you name it, it actually works. And it is actually
44:27
Speaker 1: extremely useful. And they don't really care why it works.
44:31
Speaker 1: They just say, it's our knowledge, it's our everything. Well,
44:34
Speaker 1: there you are making a mistake. No, you need to
44:39
Speaker 1: get the basics from the Quran. And you need to
44:43
Speaker 1: recognize what is actually said in the Quran, not what
44:48
Speaker 1: mainstream Islam has made it out to be. You know,
44:52
Speaker 1: Quran has everything. Quran does not have everything.
44:55
Speaker 2: I think what you're arguing, Nisa, is also something that
45:02
Speaker 2: pop culture entirely ignores, and that is ancient wisdom, ancient knowledge.
45:08
Speaker 1: Right, right. So... The biggest thing we can do to
45:15
Speaker 1: ourselves is to drop the arrogance. And to even recognize
45:24
Speaker 1: that we need to drop the arrogance is a lifetime work.
45:29
Speaker 1: Because I've been there.
45:31
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people need to be there.
45:34
Speaker 2: And by the way, just at this point, we still
45:36
Speaker 2: got a few minutes to go, but I want to
45:37
Speaker 2: thank you for.
45:40
Speaker 2: Taking the time to simplify what is otherwise an incredibly
45:44
Speaker 2: complicated conversation. I know that your focus is very much
45:48
Speaker 2: in the mathematics and the science. The average person obviously
45:51
Speaker 2: cannot follow that. And I appreciate the grand effort that
45:55
Speaker 2: you've been putting into this. But going back to the
46:00
Speaker 2: comment I made earlier about incandescent light bulbs and people
46:06
Speaker 2: struggling to get them in various countries, On a real
46:09
Speaker 2: day-to-day basis, people can actually get away from LEDs in
46:16
Speaker 2: their homes in various ways. You can actually, I know
46:20
Speaker 2: it sounds silly, but you can use candles. You can
46:24
Speaker 2: still find incandescent light bulbs. We, for example, have got
46:26
Speaker 2: a fireplace inside. And in winter, when you light the fire,
46:31
Speaker 2: it actually lights up the lounge beautifully.
46:35
Speaker 1: It sure does. It sure does. We, we do the
46:37
Speaker 1: same thing at home. Um, I, I love candles and
46:43
Speaker 1: I love, uh, the fireplace fire. And, um, you know, we,
46:48
Speaker 1: we just keep the, um, We turn off the LED lights,
46:54
Speaker 1: whatever there happens to be. In appliances, it's everywhere. So
47:02
Speaker 1: the other thing I do, I have created these very,
47:08
Speaker 1: very thin plastic thing that I can put over the
47:19
Speaker 1: appliances to turn. horribly white LED light into something more
47:25
Speaker 1: of an amber, you know, and still be able to
47:29
Speaker 1: see it. So I'm doing this at home and I'm
47:32
Speaker 1: having fun with it all. But yeah, we can avoid
47:37
Speaker 1: LED light at home by doing our own things with
47:41
Speaker 1: candles and fire and so forth.
47:43
Speaker 2: Nisa, so a question that will invariably come up is, okay,
47:46
Speaker 2: but then are you saying that on our cell phones
47:49
Speaker 2: and laptops and so on, when we, you know, they've
47:52
Speaker 2: got these apps that turn off blue light, et cetera.
47:55
Speaker 2: Even though it's not really dealing with the root cause,
47:58
Speaker 2: is it still better than nothing?
48:07
Speaker 1: You mean when a warmer environment hue is used in
48:14
Speaker 1: in the laptop rather than the the bluish look is it.
48:18
Speaker 2: Yeah and it gets that sort of like yellowy orangey
48:22
Speaker 2: color that people do this all the time now on
48:24
Speaker 2: their cell phones.
48:26
Speaker 1: Yeah um.
48:29
Speaker 2: Well it just makes no difference really is that what
48:31
Speaker 2: you're saying.
48:33
Speaker 1: I think it feels better um I think it feels better.
48:38
Speaker 1: And again, you know, it's the brain activity when it
48:45
Speaker 1: comes to light. If you can calm that down, I
48:50
Speaker 1: think that, you know, at least we feel better. I
48:55
Speaker 1: think it is in a way beneficial. But at the
49:01
Speaker 1: same time, if... If it is emitted from a flat source,
49:07
Speaker 1: then we have an inherent problem. So we should... source
49:11
Speaker 1: then um you know we we have a problem we
49:14
Speaker 1: have an inherent problem so um you know we we
49:19
Speaker 1: we should uh just try to see whether it's helping
49:24
Speaker 1: us by just you know with warmer color it's it's
49:27
Speaker 1: probably better than nothing.
49:29
Speaker 2: But as you say the root cause is still the led.
49:31
Speaker 1: Itself root causes is the led itself so um uh
49:39
Speaker 1: you know, these, these flat laptops and, and things like that. Um, it's, it's,
49:47
Speaker 1: it is an issue, you know, it's, it's, it's something that, uh,
49:50
Speaker 1: if we can get around, um, we would be better off.
49:57
Speaker 2: So where to now, because it seems like this is, uh,
50:01
Speaker 2: excuse the pun, but you know, is there a light
50:04
Speaker 2: at the end of the tunnel?
50:04
Speaker 1: Uh, Well, light is everywhere. There's nothing you can do
50:15
Speaker 1: about it. And if bad light is kept in a tunnel,
50:25
Speaker 1: then it's a responsible way of going about it. And
50:31
Speaker 1: this is why fiber optics, keeping... keeping a flat light, uh,
50:41
Speaker 1: in pipes is a better idea than letting it out
50:45
Speaker 1: like led lighting out in, in 3d and, and wireless
50:48
Speaker 1: radiation out in 3d. So, um, yeah, I mean, uh,
50:55
Speaker 1: naturally light is everywhere and, and there's nothing you can,
50:59
Speaker 1: we can do about it. We're going to experience it.
51:01
Speaker 1: It's there. Uh, it's, it's, it's who we are. We are,
51:06
Speaker 1: we are light beings and, um, You know, it's all continuous, analogous.
51:14
Speaker 1: You know, there's nothing digital about it. So this is
51:19
Speaker 1: just the way nature is. So anything we can do
51:23
Speaker 1: to stay away from creating flat lights and then throwing
51:29
Speaker 1: it out in 3D, we would be better off. and, and, uh,
51:34
Speaker 1: there is something called doing things in moderation as well.
51:38
Speaker 1: You know, I think we're going crazy sitting in front
51:41
Speaker 1: of a laptop the whole day. Um, and, uh, using
51:47
Speaker 1: our cell phones the whole day and things like that. We,
51:50
Speaker 1: we really don't, you know, it feels much better to
51:53
Speaker 1: sit with a friend and, and go out in nature
51:57
Speaker 1: or make your own food. Um, You know, I mean, sure,
52:04
Speaker 1: we can learn this, this, that, the other, but doing
52:07
Speaker 1: things in moderation is something that humanity should embrace.
52:14
Speaker 2: I mentioned to you earlier that I was in China
52:18
Speaker 2: last year, and I traveled extensively across the country. And
52:24
Speaker 2: at nighttime, the cities light up. I can't imagine that
52:29
Speaker 2: being a good thing.
52:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm amazed by their tolerance of it. I really am.
52:36
Speaker 1: It is super harmful. There's no question about it. How
52:44
Speaker 1: they can tolerate it and embrace it like this is,
52:49
Speaker 1: you know, it's very, very surprising. There are a few
52:54
Speaker 1: who are hating this, but they're not the majority. And
53:01
Speaker 1: there have been some really wise older Chinese people I
53:08
Speaker 1: have known. Years ago, they warned, this is really bad lighting.
53:14
Speaker 1: We should not go there. I remember working with those people.
53:20
Speaker 1: But they are outnumbered for sure.
53:23
Speaker 2: Okay, so Nisa, this is a fairly dark conversation. 10, 15,
53:29
Speaker 2: maybe 20 years from now, people will look at your work.
53:33
Speaker 2: This is the nature of being ahead of the curve.
53:36
Speaker 2: But for now, how can people follow your work?
53:43
Speaker 1: Yes, thank you for asking that question. So... Right now,
53:48
Speaker 1: there is three of us that I have often mentioned
53:52
Speaker 1: in public media. Dr. Alan Rayner, I already mentioned. The
53:57
Speaker 1: other gentleman is Professor C.K. Raju. And he is based
54:05
Speaker 1: out of India. And he also used to be mainstream
54:10
Speaker 1: and then decided to dump mainstream. I think he was
54:18
Speaker 1: perhaps earlier than even Alan and me. So he has
54:25
Speaker 1: dumped mainstream, oh, if I were to guess, more than
54:30
Speaker 1: 20 years ago. And so I am in touch with
54:37
Speaker 1: him and occasionally correspond with him, talk with him. And
54:44
Speaker 1: he says the same thing that he feels responsible and
54:51
Speaker 1: he's also ahead, as you mentioned, that I am and
54:55
Speaker 1: Alan is. And so he feels responsible because He has
55:02
Speaker 1: been fortunate to recognize this, that he needs to leave
55:08
Speaker 1: enough work behind so that people can pick it up
55:13
Speaker 1: when they are ready. So he has been writing many
55:18
Speaker 1: books and he has had lectures that you can find
55:23
Speaker 1: in YouTube and in his own website. And Alan is very,
55:30
Speaker 1: very active doing the same thing. And Alan and I
55:33
Speaker 1: are offering workshops every other month, so there's six a
55:41
Speaker 1: year where we go live and we have a live
55:45
Speaker 1: audience and we conduct the workshop with live discussions, demonstrations,
55:55
Speaker 1: reasoning and all of that. And people have been finding
55:59
Speaker 1: it very, very useful. And I have a website where
56:04
Speaker 1: people can get the recordings of these things anytime they want.
56:08
Speaker 1: So these are some of the things that we're working
56:11
Speaker 1: very hard to, first of all, do and make things
56:15
Speaker 1: available as recordings for the future for people to be
56:19
Speaker 1: able to go and fetch them and use them as
56:24
Speaker 1: they find useful.
56:26
Speaker 2: Thank you for joining me in the trenches.