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A Boomer Dad and Gen-Z Son Talk Democratic Socialism · We Can Do Better

• Fran Quigley: Welcome to We Can Do Better, a podcast about ending poverty in our time. My name is Freyan Quigley, I'm a law professor. I go with my students every week to eviction court. There we represent some of the millions of people in our country who are going without food, who are going without health care, and of course are facing the loss of their homes. Despite living in the richest nation in the world, we can do better. Other countries already do far better. The US has often done better in the past. And is one way to do better adopting democratic socialism. Democratic socialism is having a moment in US politics. The DSA, the Democratic Socialists of America membership is at record levels. DSA aligned and Democratic Socialist identified candidates like Zoran Mondani in New York, Katie Wilson in Seattle, Abdul El Saed in Michigan. And others are building on the success of office holders like Bernie Sanders and Representative Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, and there's likely going to be a growing number of socialist members in Congress next year. So some people are welcoming this movement. Others are raising the alarm. Quote, I think it's the biggest threat to our nation there is maybe since our founding, President Trump says about Democratic Socialists. Quote That includes World War I, World War II, September 11th. It includes the Pearl Harbor attack. So at least this member of your Humboldt Podcast team does not share that view. But neither I nor our producer and sometimes co-host Jack Quigley, we are not elected officials. We are not DSA leaders. So what do we think? I am a Gen Z, excuse me, I'm a baby boomer father, and Jack is my Gen Z son. In this episode, we're gonna answer each other's questions about how we see this movement of democratic socialism in the United States and and maybe through our conversation help us all come to terms with what's going on. So Jack, thank you for joining us. Thank you for being in front of the camera instead of behind it, like you're usually are each week. jack: Thank you for having me. Happy to be back. Fran Quigley: Okay. Yeah, so we're we're gonna just kinda pose each other questions and just have a conversation from different perspectives. Of course, as we're gonna talk about Jack's generation is very favorably disposed to democratic socialism more so than mine. However, I am very favorably disposed toward it as well. So we're gonna talk it out. So Jack, you can it will go beauty before age. You can ask the first question. jack: Well, I think this one's just kind of a general starting point, but it's something that I don't really know the the correct answer to. And and there's been for sixty years plus there's been sentiment in America that socialism is communism and communism is the start of the end of the world. So could you just explain how democratic socialists and people like Zoran differ from the the image people have of like Stalin era communism? Fran Quigley: Yeah, yeah. And again, I think we had the caveat that that I don't represent the DSA and I'm not running for office myself. But I think that the answer is in the first word, right? And the first word is democratic socialism. And the the the abuses, excesses, and and sometimes tragedies of communism did not derive from the economic system, which has substantial overlap with socialism. We could, you know, a political scientist and economists can argue the niceties of the very fine distinctions between the two that you could arguably draw. But but democratic socialism means, of course, that the people choose. And it is not a system that has any tolerance for dictatorship or repression or all the horrible, ugly, you know, historically gross things that were characterized by the worst elements of communist dictatorships. Again, that second word dictatorship. So the the first word of democratic socialism answers that question. But the second word socialism does show that i there is a commitment towards towards a reduction in the profiteering, if not a total elimination of the profiteering in our society from a capitalist perspective, especially profiteering on basic necessities like food, like water, like housing, etc. So I'd say that's probably the the the short answer of of the difference between the two. And and as you know, I've been a fan of religious socialism. I got I have it right here. I'm gonna hold up my book on religious socialism that I wrote a few years ago. And you you talk to folks from traditions of Christianity and and Islam and Judaism, and and they will say that the the love thy neighbor dictates of all of those and other moral traditions lines up perfectly with socialism. In fact, there's folks who say Christian socialism is a redundancy because that's exactly what Christianity should be and what the original Christians were. If you look at the Acts of the Apostles, these were folks who held everything in common and did not truck with private property and exploitation of others the way that we do in the United States in twenty twenty six. jack: kind of going off of that, I guess, the we've talked a little bit about how Scandinavian socialism is a thing that has worked in other countries in certain industries. One, do you think American socialists would adopt the same programs? And I guess following up on that, why don't you think we have? Fran Quigley: Yeah. Well, yeah, you will you'll definitely see folks argue as like, hey, Zaram Mamdani or Bernie Sanders or AOC or somebody like me, it's like you're not really socialist, you're our social democrats. You're not democratic socialists, you're social democrats. And so okay, you revert you'd you'd flip the the terms a little bit, but but what I think that they're referring to is that as you mentioned, the Nordic countries that have universal health care, that have basic income protections, that have universal housing assistance and all the things that we do not have in the United States that cause such suffering and and frankly we see it in the eviction court. they have those elements and including a lot of state ownership of basic needs like utilities and water, etcetera. Are they fully socialist? No, it's 'cause there is a room place for capitalism in their system. However they they make sure that basic needs are met. And so, you know, could you argue philosophically that what Bernie Sanders argues or even what AOC argues is more social democrat excuse me, yes, social democrat than democratic socialism. Maybe. we're a long way away, as you mentioned, from getting to the point where we have universal health care and housing and basic income when we meet the needs needs of everyone. And in so by so doing have more government ownership of the the production of basic needs like food and shelter and healthcare. So I think that's that's okay. And you know, would if would I trade it if we could wake up tomorrow morning and we're like Norway? Absolutely. And is Norway truly a a a socialist nation? I think political scientists would say not quite, but for the interests of most of us and the interests of the folks that we see in eviction court, yeah, that'd be great. that that would be a great place to be and that's obviously where folks like momdani and dSA and others are are pushing. can can I ask you a question connected to that and and and to circle back to your question about communism, is that so inside Can folks can see behind the curtain a little bit in the podcast. We had a few weeks ago as a guest Jesse Brown. Jesse Brown is the first socialist elected as city counselor in the city of Indianapolis where we live. And Jesse, a lot of folks really appreciated hearing from him and hearing what he had to say, but they didn't like that he said the word comrade. He said the word comrade a couple of times, and even I think a couple other terms that they just They just had a negative reaction to the term. And I think that's you c you could you could circuit circle that out more broadly and say a lot of people have negative reactions to the to the actual term socialism too. So but that doesn't seem to be the case. The data show that's not the case for your cohort. people Americans eighteen to forty excuse eighteen to twenty nine, which is your age group, feel very favorably about socialism. you have concerns about capitalism that are not necessarily shared by folks as old as me. So, you know, why do y why do you think that is? jack: I think like with your generation, you grew up with communism and socialism being in the news and it was it was I mean granted the news probably wasn't accurately depicting what was going on all the time, but it was kind of at the top of your mind a little bit. I I think honestly my generation, the first real experience I guess Bernie would be the first real experience of socialism. But then seeing like Mamdani win and Abdul Sayed looking like he's gonna win, it just feels a little more attainable and less like Just like a textbook pipe dream. Like Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. jack: you you feels like in political science classes they'll teach you like the various ways an economy can work and then they'll say, Well, it doesn't actually work like that. It only works in the capitalist society and Not to like go off topic, but I wonder if some of the recent stuff would just like our government lying about Israel and starting wars and everything. I don't I don't know that people care or believe them when they say socialists are terrorists trying to destroy the world. Like I don't I don't think the credibility is there as much maybe as it was. Fran Quigley: Yeah. And I think that's like you say, there's we grew up and some of the folks who actually responded with to to Jesse's reference to Comrade a couple of times, were older people. And they said, Hey, I think I watched too many Cold War spy movies. Cold War was done before you were born. so there there was no Soviet Union in in your and your peers' lifetime. And obviously Russia has its own problems, but Russia's problems are not connected to communism. They're connected to a dictatorship and kleptocracy, which is in many ways decidedly capitalist. So jack: Right. It's almost the opposite. Fran Quigley: yeah. okay, well I have more questions for you, but I want to give you a g give you a chance. jack: Well, I have one that I I asked a couple of friends who are one some are sympathetic, others are not, to the socialism cause. One that's a little less sympathetic, I asked him to give me some question ideas and I'll just I'll just read it word for word here. How do you reconcile some of the leading socialist voices in the US being capitalists in their personal and professional lives? Hassan Piker has one of the most capitalist jobs an individual can have. He makes money from streaming, merchandise sales, and appearances. Bernie Sanders owns multiple homes and has millions of dollars from book sales. Fran Quigley: well I'll I'll take the premise as accurate. I don't I don't I don't know the the personal finances of those folks, but yeah, so I th I think that the the to me the best goal of a socialist movement and and we can talk about DSA versus democratic socialist candidates and and what the difference may be or people voting for socialists And not being members of DSA, because that's a tiny, tiny subset of people who are voting for people like Mam Dani and and Bernie and El Sayed and AOC. So that I I think that the the the appropriate goal in my mind is to socialize the the production and distribution of the basic needs of society. So if we have a society where Everyone has healthcare, if we have a society where everyone has housing, if we have a society where everyone has a minimal income that allows them to live, if there's also folks who are making money off of selling books, or they're making money off of live streaming, or they're making money off of selling you know flat screen TVs or et cetera, If they're not exploiting the poor in the process, that doesn't offend me and and again I don't think that's the that is interfering with the goal of of everyone's basic needs being met, which to me is the is priority number one. jack: Think of the the meme of the guy that's like I want things to be better in our society, and then the other guy was like, Yeah, you participate in society. But I I get the premise, like you you don't Fran Quigley: We Yeah. jack: want to want these guys to be hypocritical and living like millionaires. but again, like it's Fran Quigley: Yeah. Yeah, I mean jack: not like they're they're living in a socialist society right now, like we were in a capitalist country. Fran Quigley: Right. And I think it's it's it's completely fair if someone's you know a achieving their wealth or even like well being off of exploiting other people. And I think that's that's the key. but like you say, it'd be ideal, you know, if if they were if they were Gandhi and and owning only one piece of cloth and and sleeping on the dirt, then maybe that would make them immune from that criticism. But yeah, I I think that You know, the the true hypocrisy I think oftentimes is much more pronounced on on the other end where folks will you know, in insist on the the the free market and individual support. But we've heard this on on various parts of the podcast where people including in the housing business but in many other businesses are getting huge amounts of government subsidies to do this and have built their their wealth and Elon Musk is a is a good example of that. But there's other huge amount of government support, but then they it's they're arguing rugged individualism for the for the mom making thirteen bucks an hour trying to support her kids. Okay, is it my turn for a for a question? jack: It is, yeah. Fran Quigley: so what about do you see a distinction between the DSA as an organization which takes a lot of heat and definitely is a talking point on on the right now and sometimes even in the middle, versus democratic socialist candidates and and elected officials like Mam Dani, like AOC, etc. And and does Again, I the reason I asked the question is because DSA is definitely growing and DSA I think is very influential. I'm a member of DSA. I'm not active in it, but I'm a member but also that's a tiny fraction of the people who are saying they feel favorably about socialism, they're voting for these candidates. So, you know, what do you feel about the organization versus the broader point of view, I guess? jack: To me, I don't see a a lot of talk as much about the DSA as the candidates and it seems like the DSA is brought into it when it's sort of a hit piece or a negative, like these it it gives opponents a group to kind of blame and is categorized. I I feel like like focusing on the DSA instead of the candidates is a way to just kind of ignore what their stances are and what the voters actually want. But I don't like I don't know anybody personally who would describe themselves as a member of the DSA, which I think is a something that you like sign up for and register, right? Fran Quigley: Well, your father is one of but not an active person and and but yeah, I mean, and I think we'll we talked about this already. We'll probably put it in the show notes. There's a I I what I think is a really important article by a writer named Ben Burgess, in August twenty first issue of Jacobin. And it's ti entitled, It's Prime Time for Socialists, How We Make Our Case Matters. And actually Burgess is a co author of a forthcoming book called The Blueprint, How Socialism Can Work in the Real World, which I think all of this is is important and timely to say this is what it should look like and this is what we should be saying. And and his point in this article is that socialists have for the longest time been in the wilderness, as you said, that just it was something that wasn't even seen as a possibility really electorally before frankly Bernie's success, especially running for president. and that socialists and so as a result have just been talking to each other and have kind of had purity tests and And trying to outflank each other on on the left. And and he's saying, look, we've got to be careful about what we say and careful about what pi what fights we pick because we have opportunities here. And if the goal is not just to to impress my fellow DSA member, the goal is to have more people vote for policies that will change lives and change a society, then we need to communicate that appropriately. And and really very controversial, He brings up the the the DSA position of abolish abolish prisons, abolish police, etc. And he says, you know, that that's never been a very realistic goal. Others will say it's really important to say that and to aim for that goal. but his point is that this is a time where socialists have an opportunity to gain power and and therefore make real important and hopefully lasting change. And as a result it it's time to be very serious about about the communication that all of us engage in that are that are favorably disposed toward it. But go ahead. jack: So well that that brings up another question I was gonna ask is like if you were to pick one say like Norwegian policy or program that we could implement tomorrow, I mean it would take a while, but the first one that would be beneficial and maybe most realistic to adopt here. Fran Quigley: that's a great question. I think there's two different answers. What's most realistic, I think, is Medicare for All. Medicare for All does, you know, polls enormously well. And many, maybe listeners remember that when there was a time that there was some some idea about adjusting Medicare I can't remember what the terms of it were, but d Medicare benefits or Medicare eligibility. And people would actually rally around the idea of keep your government hands off my Medicare. Well, that guess what? That is government. And so so people really support Medicare for all. A lot of people, you know, many, many people are on government health care already. It just makes so much sense. And the rest of the industrialized world already does it. We've we've made improvements with Obamacare, et cetera. But so I think that's the most realistic and that is what folks like Ben Burgess are saying. Hey, campaign on that. People understand that. People it it it affects all kinds of people their access to healthcare. But in terms of most impactful Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Yeah. jack: Can I can I stop you right there? 'Cause I wanna have a question about that. If we did make that change, who I guess who who's getting hurt in that exchange? Is it is it the medical providers are gonna make less money? Because I n there's gonna be somebody that doesn't want it. I'm just I wanna make sure I'm clear on that. Fran Quigley: Well, it's very clear who doesn't want it. It the health insurance industry doesn't want it, right? And to some extent the pharmaceutical industry, other for profit medical providers, but but it doesn't they do not have to do worse under Medicare for all because they could be reimbursed fairly. and there's again systems and examples all over the world where people who are healthcare providers make very good money. and if you talk to somebody's a healthcare provider, they will right now Bemoan the idea, especially the the physicians and PAs, et cetera, of how much time they have to spend and energy they have to spend trying to get approval from and payment from private health insurance entities. We used to show a a a film in class that compared different ho healthcare systems, and one of them was a hospital in Canada. And you know, if you go to even just a clinic in the United States, you see that the physicians they have an entire room where everybody's just staring at a computer screen because they're filling their coat here, they're they're filling out their forms so that they can get reimbursed, so the entity could get reimbursed. And they spend a huge amount of time doing that. There's different studies, what percentage that is, I don't remember what it is, tough of my head, but it's a huge percentage of time instead of caring for people. And the the video and or the film showed this place in Canada, a big thriving hospital and a tiny little office where one woman does all the billing and the billing is she just press pretty much presses a button and it goes to the the government healthcare system. And so, you know, that could be another conversation with with folks who are more expert about it than than I am and and you want to make sure that people get access to care, et cetera. But that the big losers are the health insurance industry and you will hear people say, What about all the people who work for a health health insurance industry? And that's legitimate, and we have to find, you know, options for them to to do other important and valuable things in the world so that they can get a living wage and support their families. But that's not a good reason to keep this broken system that leaves so many people suffering and going without care and and when they do get care getting bankrupted by it. Yeah, the second part you said do you ask what's most realistic and what's most impactful and most impactful I I say and and I'm biased because we go to eviction court every week. I think it's access universal access to housing assistance. and I say that partly out of what that's what we see, although we definitely see people who are going without health care and food. But housing is the largest expense for you know all but the richest households. And so if we were to make sure, and we and we know this, if people get access to subsidized housing, all of a sudden, you know, they do eat better, all of a sudden they do get access to they can afford their prescriptions, et cetera. So it just because of housing taking up this huge percentage of everyone's budget, if we could make sure that low income and working people and and young parents and people living with disabilities had access to housing, I think that would be huge. And that's what You know, that's why I'm excited by people like AOC and and Bernie Sanders and Mom Donnie, because they say that we should have that and they they issue proposals and pursue programs to to get us further alone that way. So I sent one Chicago I think it's my turn, I get to ask you a question now. So what do you if if let me well actually let me turn around the same question. If again, because because your generation is more favorably disposed towards socialism than any other generation has been for a long time, if you think about things like Medicare for All or even abolish ICE or universal child care or student debt cancellation or things like that, is is there a particular one of those programs that you think resonates the most with Your peer group or you personally? jack: I would say overall probably just the wages and and people at the top making ten thousand times more like the regular laborers do. And I feel like Fran Quigley: That's a jack: the the I don't know, it it feels like there's just a general distrust that's grown for any politician. in office and and promises they make and So I d I don't know I I don't know what personally resonates the most to me. I think probably Medicare and housing. Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. jack: Housing, I mean, I see just I'm looking out my window right now and I can see three or four homeless people on the streets and I mean they're just they're everywhere. It just feels like The money is somewhere and it's going to the same ten people. Fran Quigley: Right. Right. And jack: I think maybe just 'cause that's the thing that's the stuff that I see every day. I'm Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. jack: sure the answer is different for other people, but the it just seems like it Fran Quigley: Well, I d I don't I wouldn't think so. Like you say people who live in and we should say you live in a downtown area. I mean, people who live in an area where homeless people are, I mean, this is this is psychologically traumatizing to us, if you have a heart, to see this kind of suffering going on day after day after day. and, you know, to your point about the money somewhere, you know, we did have the guest and we'll have to have him back to talk about the enormous military spending and how Remember he he did Stephen Semler did the exercise where he tried to figure out how to spend our military dollars on something else and he just simply kinda ran out of things to do, but it that but before he ran out of things to do, it was Medicare for all, it was housing for all, it was universal child care, et cetera. And and we had recently Ray Madoff on to talk about the tax code and how wealthy people just simply aren't paying taxes. and we allow that to happen. So yeah, we can do it. Hence the title of the podcast, right? We can do better. Okay, I think it's your turn for a question, but if not, yeah, I've got another one. jack: I think I have one more. You might have already answered. Fran Quigley: What other crowdsourced comments did did people have? Your jack: The Fran Quigley: peers. jack: yeah, I think the the main one I wanted to get to was the Hassan Piker Bernie one 'cause I feel like that's something that you hear a lot. Fran Quigley: Hmm. interesting. jack: It's just like i and and Hassan has become like kind of the figure of socialism in my generation over the last year. Maybe more, but honestly not that much longer. Fran Quigley: That's why it's good we're talking. I have never seen him. I mean I certainly know who he is and I've seen quotes and maybe clips now and then, but I've never So does jack: Well. Fran Quigley: he does he live stream like jack: Yeah. Fran Quigley: for hours and hours at each day? jack: think so yeah I'm not I've never been into the live stream content game but yeah he I think he he'll he'll just like live stream but talk about current events and I guess the current events these days kind of push per a person to be a little more liberal and socialist, not that he wasn't Fran Quigley: Mm-hmm. jack: I it to me it doesn't seem like anything he says is super radical or or I mean he's probably he's said some crazy jokes I'm sure but there was a whole thing about the left needs to find their Joe Rogan like that was kinda dumb but the sentiment behind it is like yeah we would like to have a well liked, influential person that has good politics, I guess. Fran Quigley: Right. Or as Joe Rogan found the left, because I don't know if you saw just the other day he he kinda went on a screed about that we absolutely have the ability to make sure everybody has food and housing and healthcare and that a handful of rich people are just gorging themselves. jack: Timing Joe. Election was three years ago. Fran Quigley: didn't he support Bernie in twenty nineteen or something like that? jack: Probably changes his mind. Fran Quigley: Yeah, yeah, I don't I'm not sure there's a a very deep philosophical political core there. I so I have another question, and that is that that folks may have paid attention. It's it seems like it's faded a little bit by the time this airs is the idea of of a so called woke one and that that a lot of elected officials, and I think AOC in particular, has been accused of this of of like walking back their previous, you know, really strong statements. But it's true with I'll say it as well. and again, when the Twitter age and live streaming and everything else, everybody says something or types something that they end up regretting later. But when they when somebody walks back, they had said defund the police before and now they said what it really says we should have less money on law enforcement and violence, we should have more money for care, etc. Does that bother you when somebody walks back a previous decision or a previous position? jack: a little bit because I f it it seems pretty clear that they're trying to appeal to a broader audience and that's okay and it's like good to want to be elected and get into power, but it does feel like that's kind of what the Democratic Party has been doing and it's been creeping so far to the right that the more concessions you make the less Yeah, I guess the farther you stray from the actual base that you built. So I don't I don't know. I kind of think of it as like the The idea of socialism being radical causes politicians to get scared and kinda I think that's why people like Hassan is that he's not really back in doubt from a lot of his Fran Quigley: Yeah. jack: more controversial takes. I mean, he's not in power, so maybe that maybe if you're a politician you have more to worry about, but I feel like that's the kind of rhetoric that stops Democrats from doing a lot of good, so Fran Quigley: And that's clearly a a a twenty twenty-six midterm argument going on. It's like, okay, people seem to be very mobilized by bold statements, but at the same time, if you're trying to appeal to to the so-called or whether it exists or not, the the moderate middle, then you you need to temper some of that. And it there's an old saying that you you campaign in poetry and you govern in prose. So this is Mondani's facing that. and and a little bit with Bernie and AOC, although Bernie and AOC aren't in in the majority, so they can afford to take positions. But AOC in particular, I think, has been a little more measured and and moderate on some positions and and of course you see people on the f on the left oftentimes being frustrated by that. jack: And I I do think that a measured response is warranted too. Like it's there is something to be said for the value of kind of slowly rolling these things out instead of all at once, but Yeah, I don't know. I don't know I I don't know what the right balance is there because you want you don't wanna make so many enemies that you can't get anything done, but you still wanna do what you promise, you know. Fran Quigley: Right. Right. Well, I think those are most of my questions for you. Thank you for the Gen Z perspective. And I do think that I appreciate that we've had the conversation about you're not a DSA member that you you know, you you find a lot of these policies and the folks promoting them to be attractive and and something you support, but But I think that again, that's vast, vast majority. I I appreciate the DSA. I'm a member of DSA, I'm not active, but DSA folks go and knock on doors. BSA folks, you know, go and help get people like Mandani and and AOC, etcetera, elected. where those folks who are getting elected may not be as maximalist in their positions. but there's you know, you need that kind of energy and you need that kind of push. but but clearly the vast, vast majority of folks voting for these positions and folks in your demographic who are favorably disposed to socialism, you know, something that as you say, something's different. Something's changed. And we'll see if all this leads to some change policy. It has led for change policy in places like New York and Seattle where they've elected Democratic Socialist mayors. now if we see a little bit more of that happening in Congress and and maybe even a presidential election, we'll see. We get a little closer towards some of those goals that that most people share. You know, like you say, we encourage people like you as you say, where you live, if you see a lot of homeless people every day, it's just very hard not to be outraged by the current system, right? And we we always like to have folks come with us to eviction court, 'cause I've I for one can't walk out of eviction court feeling good about capitalism because we see the people who are losers while we see our first trillionaire and all kinds of other people making huge, huge amounts of money. So, you know, maybe more exposure and to those who are suffering in our community will will s both soften some hearts and harden some political viewpoints towards the towards the democratic socialist side. Okay, well if if you think we are ready to do so, our esteemed producer, we can wrap it up for this week. And thank you to Jack quickly for getting behind getting getting out from behind the camera to in front of the camera again. Hopefully we'll do this again soon where he co-hosts. And thank you all for listening. And remember, till you hear us again, till we te speak again, things are rough out there, but we can do better.