Latest / Half the Picture / #17 - OLIVER MURRAY

Transcript

#17 - OLIVER MURRAY · Half the Picture

• 0:00
  Do you have a very beatle?
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  Chops and Changes, of course it does.
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  But working with Paul and going to a studio and being so blown away with his openness,
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  I'm sure it has happened to him that people just sort of cease to function as the normal
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  human in his presence.
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  The fact that the man is still going and not, he's not sitting on a stool somewhere doing
• 0:26
  an acoustic gig because he's slowing down, he's paying £250,000 in South America for
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  those reasons and a whole load more of Paul at the moment.
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  Hey guys, I'm Billy and welcome back to Half the Picture.
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  I'm very excited to say that I guess this episode is Oli Murray, the music documentary
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  behind such renowned projects as now and then the last beatle song, the short film which
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  came out a couple years ago and he's now got a project coming out again with the Beatles.
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  The Beatles Anthology episode 9, the last episode of the new Beatles Anthology series.
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  I was especially excited to get Oli on the pod because he's worked with some of my favourite
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  artists of all time like The Beatles and The Rolling Stones and also his made profiles
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  of Quincy Jones and Ronnie Scott's Jazz Club, you know all these great scenes of music
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  over the years and I was really excited to get on the pod just to dive deep into that
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  sort of vein of music that he's documented and talk about the craft that he has in terms
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  of building up these portraits of these great artists and I'm really, really pleased
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  with the chat we had.
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  So without further ado, let's roll on my chat with Oli Murray.
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  Enjoy.
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  Hey Oli, welcome to Half the Picture, how are you doing?
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  Very well, thank you for having me.
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  Our pleasure.
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  So I guess to kick off with to give people a sense of the work that you've done because
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  you've done so many documentaries over the course of the last six years on different musical
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  figures, people like Bill Wyman, you know you've worked with The Beatles on now and then
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  the last Beatles single, which came out a couple years ago, they did the short documentary
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  for that.
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  You did The Key Fritches episodes of My Life Is A Rolling Stone, just fantastic.
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  And now you're directing a brand new episode of The Beatles Anthology coming out next month.
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  So I think it's fair to say it's been a busy few years for you as I'm afraid to say.
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  Yeah, when someone else points it out like that, it does.
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  I don't really, it's been a remarkable time for film and TV in general.
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  The last ten years or so, who really has, I think people will look back at it as a golden
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  age of productivity, but I mean there was some not so great stuff too, but it's been a remarkable
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  time to be a filmmaker, it's for sure.
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  And to me the most important thing is why it's wanting to make film and television.
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  It's another thing to make it and then be in a position where you can find your audience
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  and that's also been the big shift.
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  I think you know, being able to make small movies so my first film, The Quiet One, was
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  about Bill Wyman, but specifically about his unseen archive and his collection of not
• 3:03
  just stones, memorabilia, but all sorts of things.
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  And then to make a documentary about Roddy Scott's Jazz Club and have that go around
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  the world and get recognised would have been almost impossible until the sort of stream
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  of boom and all that kind of stuff.
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  So the landscape's changed for the better and it's turning all the time and maybe we've
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  seen the peak perhaps sadly, but it's been great, it's been fantastic, cannot complain.
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  I mean, go back to the beginning then for you because of course all these bands we've
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  just mentioned, like you know, the Stones and the Beatles and I'm Roddy Scott's obviously
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  of course, like you as you say, they're sort of quintessentially urban, I guess, obviously
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  the Beatles coming from Liverpool and Stones coming from London and you know, I'm Roddy
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  Scott's being such a key part of Soho for the last 50, 60 years or so, but I guess for
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  you because you want to say you come from Oxford, I'm on the same sort of rural Oxford.
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  Rural Oxford, not a lot of filmmaking in rural Oxford, so it's been in London most certainly
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  all of my professional life.
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  Well, Oxford to London via Glasgow School of Art and then also New York where I got to
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  sort of get my hands on film equipment.
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  That was really my film school was a year in New York and then I brought that back to London
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  and started working on music videos primarily and I had friends that were in bands, I was
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  in bands growing up and started doing videos for free then videos maybe a couple of hundred
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  pounds and then slowly but surely you find yourself being able to play your ramp with
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  it which is sort of still I think by anyone's metric of success if you can play your
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  builds making movies it's pretty great.
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  Yeah, it's the dream isn't it?
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  I guess what you say you were in bands, what kind of arrangement did you play in a band
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  out of interest?
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  What was your, you know, guitar and then laterally got into bass, I actually got into bass
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  because sorry to all the very very competent, great bass players out there it's easier
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  in a rock format but that's kind of why I got into the video side of it.
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  I was just as interested in the visual side, the visual communication around a band and
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  all these kinds of things so the music I didn't really like playing live, I've much preferred
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  being in a studio making music and also making videos and the planning and the kind of
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  design elements of it and that was the sort of seed that grew into being a full time
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  filmmaker.
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  Yeah, that's interesting because linking that to, I guess so linking that to the Beatles
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  which of course is one of my things we're to talk to you about today as I say you've
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  directed the new episode of the Beatles Anthology documentary, do our next month and you
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  also I guess put your relationship with the Beatles professionally started with the now
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  and then short film which you produced you directed about the last Beatles single, what
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  was your experience like working on the now and then short film, what was that like?
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  That was an amazing experience because I didn't really think that, I don't think like
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  most people I think people thought there was much more music if any for the Beatles to
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  release like everyone else I think we thought well that's it and then because of their work
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  with Peter Jackson they kind of realized that they could separate audio out and clean
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  up this tape they had of a John Lennon demo and they wanted to make something that would
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  speak to a new audience, a new generation of fans so that's really where I came in
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  to the picture as a fresh voice and a fresh point of view and so I don't know everything
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  there is to know about the Beatles that's sort of like kind of where they're on my sleeve
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  because you can read and look up everything there is about Beatles, according to techniques
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  or lyrics or the history or where they were and what Paul ate for breakfast on a Tuesday
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  and how that related to whatever so I kind of came at it with a fresh perspective and hopefully
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  a fresh point of view that you want to do right by the fans of which they are very passionate
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  all over the world and it means a huge amount so that's something to be respected and then
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  on the other hand I also think about a 17 year old kid who's got a guitar for Christmas
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  or whatever in a middle of nowhere Arkansas who thinks I need to check out the Beatles
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  for the first time and you have to kind of you have those two extremes and if you just
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  sort of gun for the middle you reach no one so you sort of have to try and a bit like running
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  two parties or two events or something at the same time you have to keep one plate in the air
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  go off and find some really specific Easter eggs or advance the understanding of the Beatles
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  at a sort of really micro level but then also look after the macro for people that don't know
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  the order of the records or believe it or not there are some people loosely affiliated with the
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  production who wanted to know why when we used interview footage from the 90s there's only three
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  of them so it's not in the curriculum that we need to learn about this sort of feels like it is
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  that we should know everything about the Beatles not everyone knows that John Nothing was
• 8:05
  mode in 1980 and that's that soon most people won't so you kind of have to lock into that and
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  just be comfortable with the fact that if one of the guy in a pool or ringo doesn't like what you've
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  made we'll just never see the light of day so that's kind of they let you make pretty much anything
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  you want but what's hanging over the project's head is but if at the end of the day it doesn't fit
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  with what they want to do for whatever reason sort of gone yeah so I was going to ask about that
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  because as you say the Beatles and also the other actually worked with a lot of stones you know
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  their image that these guys are you know the biggest pop acts you know some of all time in many
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  ways you know like it's the Beatles and the stones you know two kind of pillars you know their
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  image is so sort of carefully curated I think at this point you know because you know they've
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  been going for so long especially the stones who are obviously still playing live and still doing
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  what they're doing even you know and it's just making Keith and Ronnie so when you're in the edit
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  because we were talking before we rolled about how like a lot of this a lot of documentary
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  filmmaking is sort of assembled in the edit and like so when you're cutting the work together do
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  you find like you don't have you got Paul and ringo wherever in personal virtually kind of looking
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  over your shoulder going I mean I can't kind of have that in or you can't have that in not at all
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  my experience actually is that the more experience and often bigger the figure that you're making a
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  film about the more space they give you a they're super busy for a start and be they don't
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  they don't want to be on top of you their creatives of the highest caliber themselves they know
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  what happens if a bunch of people come in and sit on their shoulder when they're trying to write
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  a record for example process of sort of getting the gig takes a long time and the conversations
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  around what you want to do and the writing of the treatments and stuff with the fantastic people
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  that they have in place to facilitate the different aspects of their the beaters and the stones
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  their brands now that's what they're big big brands that sort of super busy and very very valuable
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  so there's lots of gatekeepers and then there's kinds of people steering the ship in the right
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  direction so it's not it's not something that you have a half hour meeting and suddenly
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  you're off in this new direction it's more like steering an old tanker across the Atlantic that like
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  they know where they're going there is a master plan that will if you take the Beatles
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  they've they've been so prolific over the last few years I get back and all these other
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  things it's almost sort of one a year of which to my knowledge the anthology is the last one of a
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  of a run of things for a little bit but these things are all kind of masterminded Jonathan Clyde
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  who's the producer of all of their things looks apple doesn't he yeah yeah producer he
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  does an amazing job of navigating that sort of ecosystem and making sure that everything sticks
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  to that north star both individual projects and then the whole the things are whole you know
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  going somewhere that fits with something that means a hell of a lot to a lot of people yeah
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  including the Beatles themselves which is pretty remarkable given that you know they're
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  Polaringo now in their 80s and obviously George Martin's no longer with us and it's Giles his sony
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  sort of also following that north star of like okay if we put out a Beatles record if we do now and then
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  you know with strings you know what would that be like how would that sound how can make it sound
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  sort of in keeping with the DNA of the band the original band as possible so as we say we're here
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  to talk about the Beatles anthology which is your sort of the upcoming project you've got coming out
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  because you've done because for anyone who doesn't know I mean the Beatles anthology is because
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  we say you know there might be someone like you know kid in Arkansas who you know doesn't know
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  the full story yeah the band to people I mean it's also it's quite confusing yeah there's a lot
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  like that it's been out sort of but not quite like this yeah it was a VHS box set when it first came
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  out yeah imagine such a thing yeah well I remember buying it on DVD that was how I sort of consumed it
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  and then I think it's only just now going and now they're just remastering the original documentary
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  series about I think five or six episodes yeah from the 90s now for Disney Plus and it is an
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  amazing documentary series but you've done the last I guess post script final episodes yeah
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  and can you tell us a little bit about what that's been like and what kind of what we can look forward
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  to yeah well it's called episode nine comes after number eight believe it or not and no reference
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  to the revolution number nine no no don't read it for anyone listening do not read into it any further
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  they will yeah of course they will once I has been remastered which is a short
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  statement to make and a two year plus journey of finding the masters again and licensing it and
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  working out you know if the master is not in the best of shape what to do with it and that's all
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  gone down to New Zealand where they use all sorts of artistry to pull its socks up to a place
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  where we would expect it to be on somewhere like Disney Plus you know it's a huge huge change
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  from the mid 90s you know the sort of analog tape and it was all four three and they were TV
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  hours which meant roughly 45 minutes for ad breaks and all those things and it was
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  ITV that funded it back in the 90s and that's all done that's all set it looks fantastic and my
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  job really was to kind of look at other bits and pieces that didn't fit the chronological narrative
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  because what one to eight is from birth to 1970 to end of the Beatles that is preserved as it should
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  be as you know the anthology it's been lovingly so had it socks pulled up to a lovely Disney Plus
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  presentation and then my job was to look at all the other bits and pieces and my favorite thing about
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  it is it's untethered from the chronology and it's really about how they felt there's no contributors
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  telling you what else was going on in the background or though we never pop out to an academic
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  giving you context or a musicologist talking about why it's so interesting they're doing
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  certain thing it's just the band and the closest to close untrust whether it's George Martin
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  or you know some of the road managers and those go to the team exactly so I got to look at it
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  a bit more of a modern sense really of looking at the weight of that legacy and for a while to start
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  with we talk about just how it felt to be in the Beatles after the Beatles to carry that around
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  George was 24 when they finished Sergeant Pepper he's a baby kid yeah they're all still
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  you know in their 20s when it's finished really you know they sort of go into their 30s wondering
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  who they are as individuals and the world doesn't see them as individuals the world sees them
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  still as a as a beetle and that continues all the way through to the 90s obviously it's also
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  sad to touch on the fact that John never got the opportunity and we also get to touch on
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  the fact that as they make the anthology there need just be a lot of water under the bridge
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  because they'd had their arguments they said things not that they'd take back but things that they
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  now understand that all on a journey together and this is a point in a journey where they can
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  start to celebrate so it's quite emotional and that was the key was to as it is untethered and
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  coming off the back of what is the definitive telling of their own story it's kind of there to
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  also talk about how it's at one point Ringo says that this is our anthology it's not my anthology
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  and there's a big difference there but there's an acknowledgement that's a joyful acceptance
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  of selective memory not manipulated memory but this idea that it was such a mad thing that the
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  shared experience isn't there's no such thing in a way it's it's kind of everyone's looking at
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  these happenings from their own corner of the room and balancing that was difficult and
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  drawing a narrative line through those kinds of things is tricky so some of that stuff doesn't
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  get into episodes one to eight because one to eight has to make some choices some decisions to
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  take you quite a lot to be through something get through all those years yeah I was able to scoop up
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  some of the stuff that just doesn't fit because it's it's kind of working on different terms and
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  also they did some interviews about the process of the anthology itself that we would recognise now
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  as being part of something like a kind of coder episode or something like that but at the time
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  although it was very interesting except for things like an EPK or something like that
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  there was no out there to see if the internet stuff like that so you couldn't find these things
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  so we've got amazingly loads of unseen stuff just because the context was was not there to be
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  widely distributed yeah and this is all the stuff presumably of like Paul and Georgia Ringo at
• 18:02
  George's estate in the country and they're sort of reminiscing about and they've got the ukulele's
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  out and they're kind of reminiscing about the old days is that kind of stuff yeah that's
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  what we catch up with Paul's in New York where he's in kind of promo mode because they were
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  records as well saying earlier it's a sort of tricky tricky thing from a distribution
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  perspective because it is it's a nine hour TV series it's a set of albums it's a book and all
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  these things need to be talked about in a certain way some traditionally some not so much but
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  while Paul was talking about the release of the albums for example in 95 that would have been
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  he talked about the making of the anthology but it wasn't necessary for that purpose in that week
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  to a deadline and it sits on a shelf and I was very lucky to be sort of leading a team of people to
• 19:00
  grab this stuff and it just provides a whole new context to their story yeah and did you shoot
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  new interviews of Paul and Ringo and Sean and the others for this episode it was an all archive
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  no that was really important because it was made in the 90s it wasn't like they're now in
• 19:18
  them film that I made that came out in November 2023 that was for 20 November 2023 service
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  new interviews with Paul and Sean and Ringo and Peter Jackson but with the anthology you had to
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  put yourself in this weird head space going to work and shut the door in the edit and go right
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  I kept bullets now it's 1995 put it together because George is still around talking so you can't
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  start layering in surviving Beatles without creating this it is it's one thing to make something where
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  you're talking to people when your present day is 95 and you're going to jump back into
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  various parts of the 60s or whatever to then on top of that layer in well let's speak to Paul
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  in 2024 or 25 it gets very weird and it's a time capsule of where they were in 95 and it was
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  really important as nice as it would have been to have that kind of access and to ask questions
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  that no doubt would have been interesting as a whole it would have done a disservice to
• 20:36
  what the anthology represents yeah you basically is talking about crafting a time capsule of 95
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  with the footage that they gave you and it's interesting reading about sort of different sort
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  of statements you've given about like your process and your sort of how you approach the craft
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  of making I mean using documentary you talk a lot about how it's almost like you're building a
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  time machine yeah and like with all that footage of lights up whether it's the the documentary
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  made on Montreux or only scots or the Rolling Stones and you've got access to all this stuff
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  and you can use it in the right way sort of create this little sort of similar acro
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  more most on screen of of 65 or 66 at Ronnie Scots or the Stones at that time or Bill Wyman
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  and it's interesting because watching back a lot of your work you have a kind of I mean
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  treat because you have this sort of motif of using and it's in the Beatles now and then
• 21:23
  shorten and like your episode on the other Rolling Stones key frichards you like to use sort of
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  close ups of like take reels and tape decks and television sets and radios and it's almost like
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  you are creating like a space in the sort of confines of the documentary and from there it's almost
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  like in the edit as a storyteller you can kind of jump to any sort of point you want to go you can
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  pipe in Ronnie Scots in the late in 1967 from where you were before which might have been earlier or
• 21:45
  with the Beatles now and then you can you've kind of you can then pipe in the new single and that's
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  interesting to me because I think some documentaries especially like I guess sort of more
• 21:55
  television ones ones that are made for television are kind of just like let's get some talking
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  heads in let's you know get some B-roll just stick it together and throw out there and it seems
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  to me like you're more interested in creating a kind of a language with your films which kind of
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  and I noticed that even on the Rolling Stones series you know there was a difference between the way
• 22:13
  that you were telling your story with Keith Riches in the second episode and the way that you know
• 22:17
  the the director in episode one was telling the Mick Jagger story and I was wondering if you could
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  talk a little bit about that how you approach the sort of language of what you do against in a sort
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  of filmmaking sense just did a great job of something out for me but I would attempt to add something
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  to it which is I think that is my experience of these projects is being most of the time in the
• 22:39
  research phase by myself with a load of tapes there's a lovely tactile sort of feeling of
• 22:44
  putting tapes into machines or putting reels up and these things have a physical weight you know they
• 22:51
  they occupy space on a shelf and I'm always I think trying to relay something of my experience
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  in these shows especially when it comes to say the Montreux series about called knobs
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  I'm stuck in Switzerland upper mountain during lockdown with 2000 tapes that isolation kind of leaks
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  in to the film it because it has to because I can't leave and I have a camera and I'm going to
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  start filming all this stuff and so that's maybe where it starts but it's I don't like to be too
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  derogatory of the what you sort of might turn the more sort of TV format docs but it is largely
• 23:36
  down to budget frankly that it's easier to interview your subjects and film them you will own
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  that footage you'll own those interviews you cut it together whatever money you have left for
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  b-roll you can add your b-roll the films I've made are a bit more expensive than that hopefully
• 23:56
  it does you can see it on screen though because that's where that extra money goes and it's
• 24:01
  really kind of going back in time and telling a story in the present tense and by the time
• 24:07
  you've got all these people together from an access perspective it's easier say to do something
• 24:14
  like this where it's sometimes just mean a backpack of because because that's I can get an audio
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  interview that way and some of these people that are very very famous don't want seven people
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  in their living room filming what I was going on they don't look the same as they used to
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  if you're getting archive of them looking at very best say in the mid 70s and you come 30 years
• 24:39
  later and you film them in a chair I'd forgive anybody for thinking I actually prefer if you show
• 24:45
  me looking a million dollars and I just talk you know so when I was lucky enough to interview
• 24:53
  Quincy Jones for the Ronnie Scott's film exactly the same thing it's kind of you just sort of
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  can sense it that what you're going access wise going to be able to get and so it was built really
• 25:06
  around the idea of if we're going to go back in time and tell the story what's it going to add
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  to see them 30 years down the line unless it's Keith Richards and it's all about that whole journey
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  and looking back makes perfect sense so we do it but I just don't take it as a given that a
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  documentary means we're going to interview 12 people and hopefully do some reconstruction
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  or some graphics or but it I suppose it's because documentary in its bones is a journalistic
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  endeavor and we're very lucky in the UK really to have somewhere like the BBC that will champion
• 25:49
  journalists to go and tell their stories on film you know make great TV shows you if you spend
• 25:56
  any time out of the UK especially now with what's going on politically we're very lucky to have
• 26:03
  some great sort of television or documentary but I think maybe because I didn't come from that
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  background I just never had those preconceptions of component parts of what a documentary was
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  so I pieced it together instinctually starting with the Rolling Stone and a load of tapes and
• 26:22
  stuff I think we're going to base the whole thing around this because this is amazing we're not
• 26:28
  going to get the contributors or the bits and pieces has its drawbacks because from a distribution
• 26:33
  perspective contributors like your cast the bigger or better your cast in theory they're more
• 26:41
  viewable it is and the more they can get it around the world but it's been such unusual times
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  recently you feel sort of disregard the rules such then I've been very lucky to have made my projects
• 26:57
  where I want to make them for better or worse so the key for itch is you had tapes and it was
• 27:03
  here in his Tudor house and it was just like you guys then it's all right and that's just let's
• 27:07
  just do this it was as simple as that with Bill one oh Bill I'm sorry not yeah well sort of
• 27:12
  simple but it took about four or five years Bill got sick in the middle of it and we started off
• 27:19
  I mean I lived with him for periods of time which was an amazing thing just talking about
• 27:23
  music and talking about what he wanted to do and and and how we wanted to do it and that was
• 27:30
  a very organic that was an amazing opportunity to find my feet and decide what kind of voice I
• 27:38
  wanted because when it's your first film no one now one gives a shit so people are just hoping
• 27:45
  it's not going to be a complete disaster so that freedom is an amazing opportunity to make some
• 27:51
  choices and then vice to people in that position is always not to take them too lightly because
• 27:59
  if it goes well some will come back around and assume that there's a lot of you in your first
• 28:06
  show and ask you to do it again one way or another that did happen to me it's very quick I've got
• 28:12
  asked to make the film on Ronnie Scots because I sort of mentioned I'd be interested in that and
• 28:18
  producer Eric Willard White was looking to do it and it stands to reason yeah they see your
• 28:25
  first film I think great well let's do something on that same road with the next one if your first
• 28:32
  film is not a good representation of you you may well get asked to double down on that before you
• 28:39
  know it you know you're in a weird place if you're stuck making something in a way that you
• 28:44
  weren't that wasn't representative yeah yeah so it's tricky because there's lots of forces
• 28:50
  shaping any production but it's just so important to stand your ground with your first film as much
• 28:57
  as you can without doing too much damage to your relationships with people but that's the one
• 29:05
  that no one's no one's looking at you until it's out and later on and that's your first big
• 29:12
  artistic swing it's important yeah I mean there's that quote about how it's as it's applicable
• 29:18
  with films I think but also with like records talk about music that you know that the first record
• 29:22
  is always and it's always as strange as because the artist doesn't all the first film the artist
• 29:26
  doesn't is who they are but they don't know who they are yet so it's in the DNA but it's the
• 29:30
  voice isn't quite there yet but it's sort of being articulated was that kind of what it was like
• 29:35
  when you were doing your first films yeah I suppose so but then also the first album or whatever
• 29:40
  is something that you've been working on your whole life up and to that point yeah so you've had
• 29:45
  all the time in the world to get to there so you've got the first four or five tracks in the bag
• 29:53
  just to get to that point and then the weird thing the second one comes along and you've thrown
• 29:58
  everything at the first one and you think well I don't know what the second one's going to be about
• 30:02
  but for me it was perfect to be given the opportunity to tell a Ronnie Scott story because that
• 30:08
  was such an important place for me never I never in a million years thought I'd go anywhere near
• 30:13
  the rolling stones just you know thinking go go making music videos and the like it was I
• 30:21
  would have loved to but when I first got my first agent throwing that out there just being that
• 30:26
  okay well like what are the pie and the sky stuff do you want like what do you really want to do
• 30:31
  what's the dream list yeah so it was kind of the second one was really jumping back
• 30:35
  to the first one because I had this dream opportunity first time around and it worked from there
• 30:41
  so there's a semblance of control but really you're like a pinball in a machine just trying to
• 30:49
  kind of hold on to it yeah brand of armor said rule number one with filmmakers and directors is
• 30:54
  like when it comes to careers as we don't plan them out that is one thing happens we're working on
• 30:59
  one thing and then then then something else happens then we sort of pinball over to that and then
• 31:02
  you're just trying to keep these sort of balls in the air and sort of do the best you can I guess
• 31:05
  completely well they take so long to make you also can't be led by what the industry's up to
• 31:11
  because it will have changed by the time you certainly by the time your production is out there
• 31:18
  so really all you can do is stick to your guns about like what is it what storage you want to tell
• 31:25
  be open-minded at the idea of that it may not be the right time so there's stories that I'd love
• 31:31
  to do I think well maybe five years time ten years time even when it especially becomes some
• 31:38
  music or arts and culture and fashion's come and go and things like that so cannot overstay that
• 31:44
  how important momentum is when a project really gets going just pushing it over the edge because
• 31:49
  there's always a hundred reasons why it would probably be a good idea to pause and take stock
• 31:54
  you just have to try and lead from the front and get it get it over the line yeah which seems like
• 31:59
  we're going right back to the beginning like you know over the last six years you've been it's
• 32:02
  like one project after another another and you've been doing such great work I mean with
• 32:07
  I mean now that you've done like you say the pie it's sort of pie in the sky dream let's say you
• 32:10
  worked some of the the biggest bands who made docks on them you know rolling stones and the Beatles
• 32:14
  I mean do you feel like now the doors have been sort of kicked open completely like offers are
• 32:17
  coming in like you know you can kind of direct a doc on any sort of act you like is that kind of
• 32:22
  is that the experience if offers are coming in they're sending them to the wrong email
• 32:27
  but yes I'm very fortunate things come and go some people think that because you're working for
• 32:32
  the Beatles that you wouldn't want to do other things and you find out six months later that
• 32:39
  they would have loved to sat down and asked my thoughts on certain stories which is interesting
• 32:45
  because actually the best thing to do after you know two years or so Beatles work
• 32:53
  is to go right to the other end of the spectrum and work on a work with a band or an act or
• 32:58
  whoever it is they're just starting out so that's what I'd really love to do now is kind of go
• 33:02
  all the way to the other end of the spectrum possibly where there's you know absolutely no archive
• 33:07
  and it's all an observational documentary about bands or musician or what you know trying to
• 33:13
  make their way in the world it's which is tough the one of the things that I like to try and
• 33:19
  highlight where I can with working on the anthology is the fact that it's interesting that the
• 33:26
  biggest touring acts at the moment are still Paul McCartney the Stones you two it's a handful
• 33:35
  of new and by new I mean last ten years the kind of acts that are making it work and the music
• 33:41
  industry's always been the first in the arts to sort of show us where arts and culture in
• 33:48
  general is going and it's so impossible for musicians to make a living for music now that we have
• 33:57
  to really start to rethink what's important and how we kind of cultivate opportunities
• 34:05
  not just for musicians but musicians for filmmakers any creative sort of endeavor is getting squeezed
• 34:12
  so terribly and it's important that we kind of wake up to the fact that you know I've been using
• 34:19
  like venues are the economics of putting on music and live shows don't work and it's there's not
• 34:26
  going to be some big weekend where they all crumble and we recognize that we need to do something
• 34:32
  just going to slowly go and it's going to like small towns first and then it's going to
• 34:36
  encourage on the big cities yeah incrementally yeah and it's so difficult to get them back once
• 34:41
  they've gone but it was an interesting thing when we released the Ronnie Scott's documentary that
• 34:46
  was just after the pandemic so we weren't expecting a story about a British jazz club to be a sort
• 34:56
  of international resonance you know that that kind of thing where everyone after the pandemic felt
• 35:04
  like whether it was a music venue or a small theatre or a bookshop or just like just a cafe
• 35:08
  that they like to go to if it didn't disappear it got very close and everyone sort of felt
• 35:15
  that kind of tremor of what would happen if their favorite spot disappeared if we are in a
• 35:21
  position to support these kinds of things we need to because it's great to be working with
• 35:28
  the Beatles on on these big you know on something as great as the anthology this also sort of bananas
• 35:35
  that the void is so ginormous behind I mean it's the Beatles it's a different
• 35:41
  we're there so on the shelf under Beatles and nothing else but then there's everything else great
• 35:45
  that Oasis had a moment that was great but what's after what's coming next I mean since what you
• 35:53
  just said there about how right you know you've just done the Beatles and stands in these huge acts
• 35:58
  that are on that count yet in their own strata really and then now if you were if you had the choice
• 36:03
  you would go into the other end of the spectrum of doing much smaller scale much more you know
• 36:07
  someone who's up and coming but who's really good I mean are there any acts coming up that you
• 36:12
  if you had you know the option like some of your favorite acts that are coming up like who would
• 36:16
  you sort of want to profile and sort of get on film changes all the time and if I say out loud
• 36:22
  that will invariably never happen so I wait I am going to Turkey in two weeks to work with this
• 36:31
  dream I thought there'd be given that it's a smaller act I said I was a couple days ago I was
• 36:39
  coming here today I'm going to start talking about the Beatles and can I talk about what's happening
• 36:44
  next and they said no so ludicrous that you know they they've missed out well after Turkey to do something
• 36:53
  with a smaller act all about immigration and the voice of immigration through music which is
• 37:03
  exactly the kind of thing that I was hoping I'd be able to do after doing something as specific as
• 37:09
  the legacy of a band like the Beatles is to go and do something that I also don't really know much
• 37:13
  about and put myself in that position of the audience and work with some really fantastic
• 37:20
  filmmakers out there in in Turkey that have lived with some of these experiences that were trying
• 37:27
  to put on film and things like that and that's also the great thing about making documentaries is
• 37:33
  your professiony nosy that's sort of what I kind of think of it as I get to go out and
• 37:40
  make it my business to try and learn everything that I can about Turkish hip hop you know I'm in
• 37:46
  if I'd written a thousand things now if you'd said what would you like to do next
• 37:52
  that wasn't even on my radar but I can't wait to go and do it well I've got to confess Turkish
• 37:57
  hip hop's not particularly on my radar either I mean what is it about it specifically that is so
• 38:02
  of grabbing your attention and picking your interest well there was a moment when a lot of Turks
• 38:09
  went to Germany for they were so Germany needed workers and they answered the call and then they
• 38:18
  had a particularly poor time and they experienced all sorts of not just not know the jobs weren't there
• 38:26
  that were supposed to be there but they just they may have been wanted on a sort of government
• 38:30
  government level but not on a sort of street level and it's sort of the story it's just these kids
• 38:38
  at the time in the mid-90s American hip hop was huge and they start wrapping in their own language
• 38:45
  which had never been done before and it's kind of what happens when this this new youth culture meets
• 38:52
  Turkish culture which is one of the you know oldest cultures in the world I mean yeah see
• 38:59
  old and the new kind of colliding yeah exactly yeah it's interesting because that reminds me what you
• 39:03
  said there a bit of like you say sort of youth culture and hip hop sort of is sort of spreading
• 39:09
  further and further and disseminating I mean it reminds me a bit of obviously I think and
• 39:12
  obvious example these days would be kneecap I guess you know the Irish hip hop and they're wrapping
• 39:17
  in their own language and it is about the original language and it's about that culture and sort of
• 39:21
  and getting it out there and I guess it's a similar sort of vibe in Turkey yeah we sort of take it
• 39:27
  back to the 90s and talk about the first instances of Turkish hip hop and take it through to
• 39:35
  what it means to people to be seen that sort of brotherhood that kind of ability to to have
• 39:43
  yourself reflected in the music and then when you're making documentary like this you know have
• 39:47
  yourself reflected ultimately on on a TV screen as well so that two weeks time I'm off to start that
• 39:56
  exciting linking it back to the Beatles quickly I mean I feel like everyone gets that everyone has
• 40:01
  their favorite beat all everyone so I guess and I guess if you've worked with the Beatles this is
• 40:05
  I guess a slightly more sort of pressing question others but do you have a favorite beat all?
• 40:09
  chops and changes of course it does but working with Paul and going to a studio and
• 40:16
  and and and being so blown away with his openness for creatives to come into his space
• 40:26
  and make work with him is a unbelievable experience to have and then watching him now it's sort
• 40:32
  of possibly obviously not fair on the others to say how prolific he is now in that but the fact
• 40:38
  that the man is still going and not he's not sitting on a stool somewhere doing an acoustic gig
• 40:46
  because he's slowing down he's paying to 250,000 people in South America four times a week
• 40:53
  it's closer to 90 soon than it's crazy so for those reasons and a whole load more
• 41:04
  of Paul at the moment yeah it's been that's also partly because you played bass so is it you know
• 41:08
  I wouldn't like in any way to say that I played bass in the way that Paul played I wouldn't
• 41:15
  so no let's make that clear I don't think myself as a co bass player in lines of Paul McCartney but
• 41:23
  no he's he's just a absolute absolute creative force some believable that's what was so amazing
• 41:30
  about watching get back when that came out you know a few years ago was the fact that I feel like
• 41:34
  Paul sometimes maybe explain some with some fans and maybe even by occasionally John and George
• 41:39
  at the time kind of got tired with the brush of like you know we're kind of we're kind of
• 41:43
  fragmenting here we all kind of want to do our own thing and Paul has to kind of be the mum
• 41:47
  of the group for like a good stretch of time after you know Epstein dies Brian Epstein that's a
• 41:53
  lot of responsibility and watching get back it was just a sense like this guy just won't stop
• 41:57
  yeah the fact that he's pumping out these tracks like almost off camera at times there's that great
• 42:01
  bit and get back where I think John is talking to maybe George Martin about you know how or
• 42:06
  about how we're going to do the set for the show and then in the background of camera you can hear
• 42:10
  you can literally hear maca like composing let it be on the piano and it's like this guy in like
• 42:15
  however many weeks they had to get ready for that rooftop gig is cranking out these songs yeah
• 42:20
  I mean it's the fact that and then you just wouldn't stop you know you know it's like Ringo says
• 42:24
  you know he's the workaholic he's the pro in some ways of the kind of the four because he just
• 42:29
  he's on it yeah my favorite bit in that series is one of them might be George or we go one of
• 42:38
  15 minutes late and he uses their 15 minutes to write get back yeah and the fact that
• 42:45
  in that series you just get to watch it kind of emerge out of this sort of early this sort of
• 42:52
  meditative thing where he's just humming and playing and and the amazing thing is also when he
• 42:57
  does it he knows he's got something in that sort of stream of consciousness of music
• 43:03
  imagine in his head an awful lot he's able to siphon off something and just happens to be
• 43:10
  that and he doesn't do it once or five times or just dozens of times in that period
• 43:19
  it's just an unbelievable creative one of the greats of all time and it's easy is that it's hard to
• 43:28
  talk about his talent really because everyone said everything there is to say but it's
• 43:34
  extraordinary yeah and it's and when you were making sort of the anthology and now and then because
• 43:39
  I want to say Jonathan from Apple did the interviews with Paul for that but then you were in the
• 43:43
  room as well yeah so you would meet you at Paul and you got to play that over a cup two or three
• 43:49
  instances yeah yeah and so you're in the room with your favorite beat all I mean what's that like
• 43:54
  professionally well it's quite good I can divorce myself from how famous someone is
• 44:02
  sit down and do an interview or hang out with them and do this this sort of small talk and get
• 44:10
  the stuff done we need to do and then it's either it's usually at the following morning or
• 44:14
  motel that that weekend that I just absolutely lose my shit over what's just happened but it never
• 44:20
  happens in the moment you have like delayed fuse on it because otherwise you just sort
• 44:26
  I'm sure it has happened to him that people just sort of cease to function as a normal human in
• 44:31
  his presence but I can't go into a sort of sort of completely other world of he's just a guy
• 44:42
  you sort of hang on to this idea and you you come very very prepared so you can lock into your prep
• 44:48
  I think that's important if you don't lock into the prep and you're sort of actually just
• 44:53
  engaging with the person that he is then I think my brain would go to porridge but you just stick
• 44:59
  to the plan and then get it done yeah and surely he's you know like like you say he's been doing this
• 45:04
  for 60 you know odd years at this point you know he's seen it all he's done it all so I guess he's
• 45:09
  quite laid back he's seen it all but he wants things to be great because he's Paul McCartney so
• 45:17
  he's on top of it and he just he he loves it still playing there's more stuff coming out
• 45:25
  next year in a book and sometimes I think god if anyone's used his time on the planet wisely
• 45:33
  and what it just he's and he's such a grounded individual as well and he's it's a fantastic life
• 45:43
  yeah and and the fact that I think all of the Beatles you know until the end kind of and obviously
• 45:48
  Paul and Ringo still with us like they haven't lost their sense of humour which is obviously
• 45:51
  such a key part of their whole makeup yeah like Paul's still funny like Paul's still you know
• 45:57
  and Ringo's still hilarious they're still tracking jokes mean Eric Idol was talking about he was
• 46:01
  going to perform a song on sort of American late night TV quite recently you know I remember he
• 46:07
  was on radio quite recently and he was going to do a sort of early McCartney track so pre-beatals
• 46:11
  but early McCartney and he phoned up Paul and he said you know can I do you mind if I use this song
• 46:15
  and Paul was like tell me when it is tell me what channel so I can not watch it and so the fact that
• 46:20
  you know the guy still he has his wit you know is still which is fantastic that's the that's how
• 46:25
  you survive through it I think yeah yeah for sure yeah I mean I assume you've seen Paul play
• 46:32
  life like you've been to one of his gigs and you know I've not you never know okay well because
• 46:37
  I saw him I was lucky enough to see him last Christmas at the O2 and it's like you were saying
• 46:41
  about like the big acts like you know Paul Taylor Swift you know the Rolling Stones but they're
• 46:47
  playing for such long gigs yeah it's like it's a marathon isn't it's like two hours at least of
• 46:52
  just and it's song after song after song I think it's almost three when he goes to South America
• 46:56
  because he doesn't have this sort of curfew type thing I mean really yeah and he's got the hits
• 47:01
  and he will play them yeah so yeah every single song is basically yeah everyone knows the words
• 47:06
  to virtually every single song which is just extraordinary yeah and Ringo even comes out at the
• 47:11
  at the end you know yeah I was supposed to be at that gig and I was bummed out when I read about
• 47:16
  that later on I was at the I was because he did two nights and Ringo comes out on the last night
• 47:22
  and me and my mate were there the night before so not only do we miss Ringo by one night we also
• 47:27
  missed him pulling out the the famous lost bass yeah there he had so it was just you know
• 47:31
  us we had to just take all of them so we're grin you know just like okay we saw Paul that's
• 47:36
  enough you know but secretly feeling one last question about the anthology because as you
• 47:42
  were saying like the anthology sort of format you've got the Beatles and their team and they're
• 47:47
  telling the story their own story themselves you know and it's an incredibly sort of simple
• 47:52
  book robust format of like you've got Ringo talk its camera got Paul and George and then the
• 47:57
  roadies and all the guys and as I say simple book robust because it's it's very direct and you
• 48:02
  just get a sense of like these are these are you know Paul George and Ringo and John when he gets
• 48:06
  piped and you have audio of him pre recordings of him talking and and it's just very it's quite
• 48:12
  intimate and I guess for you when you were doing your episode of the new anthology because as we
• 48:16
  say you're quite you like to be quite inventive with a sort of documentary format did you feel like
• 48:21
  you had to adhere to that sort of original format I've just simple sort of talking heads you know
• 48:25
  B-roll can cut quite simply or did you did you have the opportunity to get more inventive of it?
• 48:30
  Yes we did in short I think it was more because it was archival from the 90s and because
• 48:39
  George and John aren't with us the archival and the talking heads but certainly it certainly it felt
• 48:48
  like it it was an opportunity to give George a voice you know that he wouldn't have in any other
• 48:56
  way obviously there's no if he didn't say it on tape or film we're never going to hear him say it
• 49:04
  again so it was important to lean into that a bit more but I think it goes back to what I was saying
• 49:10
  before that I'm more than happy to use talking heads if the North Star is if we're talking about
• 49:19
  emotions and contextualizing how they feel about something stands for reason you want us you want
• 49:25
  to see he's talking about how he feels now in that moment not tell me about how you felt
• 49:33
  all that time ago so when he's talking about being a kid we see him being a kid but if he's
• 49:39
  talking about when I saw them all for the first time last week then we're in that moment so
• 49:45
  the story sort of catches up with itself so it's them doing a sit down interview in the 90s to talk
• 49:50
  about the 90s so there's more interview there's more filmed interview than I would have normally
• 49:59
  gone for him certainly more than my previous work but it was because it was all justified about
• 50:05
  it all fits to that sort of mode of it's a time capsule it's hopefully a time machine that
• 50:11
  takes you back to that capsule and they did some great seated interviews and talked about things
• 50:19
  that they haven't talked about before or since it's interesting because I know a lot of the
• 50:25
  years original interviews are done by Jules Holland I want to say yeah Jules is in there it's
• 50:30
  funny actually the when you see the rushes it was actually it was it was a shot on film but
• 50:36
  framed for four three so when we went and scanned some of that stuff again we get the full frame
• 50:45
  and there's certain interviews where I say Paul's on his boat which is insane by the way that's
• 50:52
  like one of the greatest sort of interviews ever yeah I think I should be on my boat at this moment
• 50:58
  but because the boat is very small and the camera could only be where it is in the
• 51:03
  lenses the way it is to get the whole thing in this four three frame when you go wider you can
• 51:08
  see Jules Holland crouch down asking the questions thinking he's safe and out of frame all these years
• 51:14
  later you come back yeah there he is yeah whenever you talk about like you know these films like
• 51:19
  you know now and then and the apology and you know you you clearly seems to relate to me it seems
• 51:24
  relate to them on quite purse you have to relate to them on a personal level or you do the film
• 51:27
  you're making because as I say it can be quite a journalistic exercise sometimes in terms of just
• 51:32
  like putting information across like this happened with George and then this happened to Paul but
• 51:37
  then it seems to me you're coming at it from like how do I relate to this material and what is the
• 51:41
  store what's the heart of this actually about right now and then you know it's about the Beatles
• 51:45
  making their last song but also it's about I mean you were saying it's kind of about brotherhood
• 51:49
  across time I that's what it's really about yes and you think and how important do you think is
• 51:53
  that till I actually when you're making a film as a documentaire massive good music documentaries
• 51:58
  aren't about music and good music isn't straightforward music it's coming from somewhere else
• 52:05
  so you sort of have to I mean don't get me wrong there's a place for it where you see someone sitting
• 52:11
  at a desk and talking or seeing an amazing performance is a fantastic thing but it's that's
• 52:17
  take away the performative element of it and music is someone's expression of themself so the
• 52:26
  starting point for me is anyone within whether a musician or filmmaker you start out and at one
• 52:34
  point you're both just kids with a dream to do something and I think that's the bit that that's
• 52:41
  where it starts where you can relate to and the arc of the story of a kid with a dream it's
• 52:46
  why there's sort of biopics of even good ones like Ray or Bohemian Rhapsody or something like that
• 52:52
  they're all variations on kids with dreams and I'm going to make it big whatever that means
• 53:00
  but really from a documentary format it's mostly will I express myself the way I hoped I could
• 53:13
  do that or something it's a different it's complicated for each individual but that is no different
• 53:19
  from making a film I think well will I make something bigger than the sum of its parts I suppose
• 53:25
  and so doesn't matter if it's Paul McCartney or a wonder kid they're still trying to do the same
• 53:31
  thing and if you can tap into that energy and find the complications and make it specific and interesting
• 53:38
  that's the other thing if it's got to be culturally specific because otherwise it gets
• 53:42
  bit generic and so if you hang on to those key linch pins then that's how it starts and I think
• 53:49
  that's how you can draw a line between someone that is similar to the audience that's what you
• 53:55
  got to tether their story to the audience in a meaningful way so they can have their emotional
• 54:01
  response to it the moment you put them on a pedestal it's over or the moment if you the moment
• 54:06
  you you are distancing yourself it's just going to double the distance from the audience as well
• 54:11
  and then they feel like this sort of other entity you know like a concert film or something if you
• 54:15
  watch Michael Jackson and a concert film you just it's unbelievable but he just doesn't feel like
• 54:22
  an actual person that's then going to walk off and go and have some dinner and get some
• 54:27
  kip because he's got to do it all again it's just a different thing so it's punching holes in that
• 54:33
  that sort of veneer towards something that there is a universal truth yeah and it's getting
• 54:39
  under the skin of that isn't it and I get and that was always a yes linkiness back to the Beatles
• 54:43
  that was always their core appeal wasn't it is that they they were for however sort of monolithic
• 54:48
  and universal they were they were just like four lads from the report absolutely and we're
• 54:52
  each with their own voice each with their own sort of energy and you know that and people could
• 54:56
  relate to that yeah I guess yeah and it still is informing everything that they're doing
• 55:01
  up till now completely yeah great well I think that's uh that's all we've got time for
• 55:06
  after the picture this time thanks for having me my pleasure cheers off thank you good chat
• 55:20
  hey everyone thanks so much for listening to my chat with Oli Murray remember to like and
• 55:24
  subscribe to the podcast see you never miss an episode and stay tuned for more exciting
• 55:28
  interviews and guests coming soon on half the picture