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Navigating Your Path - S1E6: A Conversation with Linoj Samuel · Navigating Your Path

• 0:04
  Duane Newton: Hi, I'm Duane Newton, and welcome to Navigating Your Path.
• 0:09
  Duane Newton: In this episode, I get to chat with my good friend and fellow University of Rochester CPEP fellowship alum, Dr.
• 0:17
  Duane Newton: Linoj Samuel.
• 0:18
  Duane Newton: Linoj is the division head of clinical microbiology at Henry Ford Health, just down the road from me in Detroit, Michigan.
• 0:26
  Duane Newton: Our discussion was a perfect example of why I love to do this.
• 0:30
  Duane Newton: In all the years I've known Linoj, I never knew that he grew up in Kuwait and had to flee with his family through Iraq during the first Gulf War.
• 0:40
  Duane Newton: He talked about how that experience impacted he and his family and gave him a very human perspective on military and political conflict.
• 0:50
  Duane Newton: We shared stories of the impact of our fellowship training and how the mentoring we received from Marilyn Menegas truly shaped our careers.
• 1:00
  Duane Newton: As the title of this episode shows, we still hear her voice in our heads.
• 1:06
  Duane Newton: Linoj also talked about his journey of service in our profession and how important it is for him to stay grounded and connected when facing adversity.
• 1:17
  Duane Newton: I really hope you enjoy this conversation with Linoj Samuel Thanks for your willingness to, to chat with me.
• 1:28
  Duane Newton: I think that the in- the approach that I, I wanna, I've wanted to take is just talking with people about their journey.
• 1:41
  Duane Newton: Uh, you know, how...
• 1:44
  Duane Newton: Where they came from and, and how they got to where you are now.
• 1:50
  Duane Newton: Um, and recognizing that, you know, everybody's story is unique.
• 1:56
  Duane Newton: And I think that those unique experiences provide a lot of insight to people about, you know, the kinds of things that we all go through or, you know, that we go through on that journey.
• 2:09
  Duane Newton: And, um- And I know that some of it will resonate.
• 2:15
  Duane Newton: Um, but I think more importantly, what I feel like this gives us an opportunity to do is, um, you know, step inside your shoes a little bit and, and allow people to get to know you and, uh, maybe feel a little more connected with you as a person.
• 2:36
  Duane Newton: And, you know, so when you go to ASM next week that, uh, or whatever meeting, you know, that maybe folks that have listened would feel comfortable coming up and chatting with you and see you for the approachable person that you are.
• 2:53
  Duane Newton: So thanks for your willingness to, to step into the, the circle and have a conversation.
• 3:01
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah, no, no.
• 3:01
  Linoj Samuel: Thank you for having me on, for sure.
• 3:04
  Duane Newton: I think the, um, what I think is always really interesting is to start from, you know, kind of where you grew up and, and what your family life was like and, um, those That background has always provided some interesting stories from people.
• 3:22
  Duane Newton: So in-
• 3:24
  Linoj Samuel: Mm-hmm
• 3:25
  Duane Newton: what's your, what's your origin story, Linoj?
• 3:28
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah.
• 3:29
  Linoj Samuel: So I actually, although my family's originally from India, my parents moved to the Middle East sometime in the'60s, and so I was born there and grew up in, in the Middle East, uh, and spent most of my time there aside from maybe a year or so when we had to leave when the, the, uh, First Gulf War broke out.
• 3:51
  Duane Newton: So where in the Middle East?
• 3:53
  Linoj Samuel: It was in Kuwait.
• 3:55
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah.
• 3:55
  Linoj Samuel: So I mean, from a, um, a standpoint of, like, what was that upbringing like?
• 4:01
  Linoj Samuel: I mean, it was a very, those are really wealthy countries, right?
• 4:03
  Linoj Samuel: And so, um, even though we were solidly middle class, I mean, we, we grew up in what I would say is a, a It was fairly good.
• 4:13
  Linoj Samuel: You know, uh, I, I can't complain about my childhood, you know?
• 4:15
  Linoj Samuel: And, and so aside from maybe the war part, that, that I could have done without.
• 4:20
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, but, but, you know, I think that overall But from a very young age, I just was always interested in, you know, growing up in an age where we had, like, one TV channel you had to watch and, and there was not really great access to internet, aside from dial-up.
• 4:35
  Linoj Samuel: You read a lot of books, and I would read newspapers from, like, front to back'cause that's how bored I was out of my mind.
• 4:41
  Linoj Samuel: And, uh, you know, I was always interested in, like, outbreaks and things of that affect the world, and I can't explain why that over other things.
• 4:50
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and so I was- Thought at some level I'd be involved in infectious diseases and, and microbiology in some form.
• 4:59
  Duane Newton: So, but you kind of glossed over this part really quickly.
• 5:04
  Duane Newton: You were in Kuwait and you were in Kuwait during the first Gulf War.
• 5:09
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah, so I was probably-
• 5:11
  Duane Newton: What was that?
• 5:11
  Duane Newton: Oh my gosh, that, I didn't realize that and Tell me a little more about that.
• 5:19
  Linoj Samuel: I was, I was probably about, um, eighth or ninth grade at that time, and we woke up one morning and, and think of that, you know, we'd never been exposed to any kind of warfare at any point.
• 5:32
  Linoj Samuel: I don't know that my upbringing was ran-- d-different from your average American here.
• 5:37
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, but we woke up one morning, and there were tanks in the streets and soldiers, and turns out that the neighboring country had invaded us and, and most of you know the story.
• 5:48
  Linoj Samuel: And so, um, it was sort of a couple of months of nothing happening after that because we were, um, stuck there.
• 5:56
  Linoj Samuel: We couldn't leave.
• 5:58
  Linoj Samuel: Um, parents couldn't go to their jobs.
• 6:00
  Linoj Samuel: We couldn't go to school.
• 6:02
  Linoj Samuel: And so you were sort of locked down.
• 6:05
  Linoj Samuel: But it was an interesting perspective to being in a war versus reading about a war.
• 6:09
  Linoj Samuel: At that point, there was no fighting, although, you know, there were, there were...
• 6:13
  Linoj Samuel: there was a plane crash, a jet fighter crash on the field where we used to play soccer, you know?
• 6:17
  Duane Newton: Hmm.
• 6:18
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and so there were shortages of food and other supplies, but, but we're not gonna...
• 6:23
  Linoj Samuel: we didn't starve or anything like that.
• 6:25
  Linoj Samuel: What we didn't know was that we came across a lot of soldiers from, from the Iraqi army, and, and even though they were technically the enemy, having invaded Kuwait, most of them were conscripts.
• 6:35
  Linoj Samuel: I mean, some of them were like 16-year-old kids.
• 6:37
  Linoj Samuel: They didn't have a choice to be there in that matter.
• 6:40
  Duane Newton: Not much older than you.
• 6:41
  Linoj Samuel: Right.
• 6:41
  Linoj Samuel: Right.
• 6:42
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and so, and most of them were hungry, looking for stuff to eat, you know, and they had never seen the kind of like, you know, what we consider fairly average, having a microwave and things like that.
• 6:54
  Linoj Samuel: They'd never seen things like that.
• 6:55
  Linoj Samuel: And they're coming from a country with a lot more oil than Kuwait.
• 6:59
  Linoj Samuel: And so, um, it was clear that they, they had a different upbringing and different circumstance than we did.
• 7:06
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, and so anyways, long story short, we realized that nothing good was gonna happen, and, and we had to leave.
• 7:12
  Linoj Samuel: So we ended up driving a convoy out of Kuwait all the way to Iraq, uh, because at the time, the US forces were building up on one side and the Iraqi forces on the other side.
• 7:22
  Linoj Samuel: So we drove all the way to Iraq, ended up in Jordan.
• 7:25
  Linoj Samuel: But turns out everyone had the same idea.
• 7:27
  Linoj Samuel: So we're there with a quarter million people trying to get out of Jordan, and there weren't any flights to take us back to, um...
• 7:35
  Linoj Samuel: We had a house back in India.
• 7:37
  Linoj Samuel: And, um, so we were not technically refugees.
• 7:40
  Linoj Samuel: We had a place to go, we just couldn't get there.
• 7:42
  Linoj Samuel: So we ended up spending, uh, I would say maybe like five or six days in a refugee camp in the middle of the desert.
• 7:49
  Linoj Samuel: And that was, I mean, an eye-opening experience.
• 7:51
  Linoj Samuel: You know, again, we were with the Red Cross.
• 7:55
  Linoj Samuel: They really took care of us, but you're in a tent in the desert.
• 7:58
  Linoj Samuel: There's not a blade of grass to be seen or another building for miles around.
• 8:03
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and they, they got us food, they got us water, and you know, there were other people who went before us who didn't have that kind of organization, who suffered a lot.
• 8:11
  Linoj Samuel: So we were- fortunate in that regard.
• 8:13
  Linoj Samuel: But for my parents, I mean, as a teenager, you have no sense of danger.
• 8:17
  Linoj Samuel: You're like,"Oh, this is cool." Your parent- my parents, when I look back, they were freaking out, you know?
• 8:21
  Linoj Samuel: They were like, they missed the meeting of a refugee camp.
• 8:24
  Linoj Samuel: And, um, but, but you get a feel for, you know, what, it's one thing to read about these things, another thing to experience that in real time, right?
• 8:31
  Duane Newton: What did you, like, d- are there some kind of long-lasting Feelings or perspectives that, you know, came from that experience that, you know, you carried with you
• 8:45
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah, I think there's a lot of people have conversations about wars and, and, you know, whether they're justified or not, and then sometimes they are.
• 8:52
  Linoj Samuel: But I think what we lose sight of is there is a constituency that is not fighting, that is just trying to live and get away.
• 8:59
  Linoj Samuel: We left Kuwait with just the things we could carry, right?
• 9:03
  Linoj Samuel: What have you packed in a suitcase.
• 9:04
  Linoj Samuel: An entire lifetime left behind, not even the money in our bank accounts because we couldn't access those, right?
• 9:11
  Linoj Samuel: So you're leaving with just what you can carry and, and going to a country you didn't grow up in, and on the way you're stuck in this camp in a tent.
• 9:19
  Linoj Samuel: And so I think it really does make you think about, okay, even with what's going on now in the world, um, there are people that have nothing to do with either side that are struggling, and, and I think there needs to always needs to be a thought for those people.
• 9:30
  Linoj Samuel: It also makes me appreciate the work of the Red Cross and other agencies too, um, out there because they did, they took good care of us, you know, even though it was a difficult situation.
• 9:39
  Linoj Samuel: Um, eventually we did make our way back to, to Kuwait, uh, to India, sorry, um, and then spent a couple of years there.
• 9:47
  Linoj Samuel: But that, that also changed my perspective.
• 9:49
  Linoj Samuel: That was a completely different environment, different language, different...
• 9:52
  Linoj Samuel: And you learn how to adapt to situations because you have no choice, right?
• 9:56
  Linoj Samuel: And, and I think most of us are more capable of things than we think we are.
• 10:01
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and, and we adjusted, um.
• 10:05
  Duane Newton: My, um...
• 10:07
  Duane Newton: I had an experience that ha-had an impact on me.
• 10:11
  Duane Newton: It was, you know, nowhere near what you described, but my dad was in the military and where we lived in Germany when I was, um, real-- pretty young, second grade through fifth, like half of fifth grade.
• 10:26
  Duane Newton: And, uh, we took a trip to Berlin, and at the time this was in the, um, early to mid-'70s.
• 10:36
  Duane Newton: It was, you know, there's still East Germany.
• 10:38
  Duane Newton: Berlin was split into East and West.
• 10:41
  Duane Newton: And, um, I actually got to, uh, tour through East Germany and, you know, this is, the wall is still up, um, very much Cold War, Soviet era.
• 10:57
  Duane Newton: And it wa- it was really impactful how different the other side of the wall was.
• 11:04
  Duane Newton: And in the, the environment, you know, there was a lot of, um, deconstruction, you know, buildings that were falling apart and, and rubble, I remember.
• 11:17
  Duane Newton: And the, the energy was very, um- Dark.
• 11:22
  Duane Newton: And, you know, people, you know, just kind of kept to themselves and their heads down, and clearly we were, you know, Westerners and, um...
• 11:31
  Duane Newton: But it had a huge impact on me even as a kid, and, you know, it was one of many situations that happened, uh, over time as a kid, a- as a military kid, where you're in environments that are not...
• 11:45
  Duane Newton: You know, they're a lot different than what you're used to.
• 11:48
  Duane Newton: And, um, I think, you know, the easiest way to describe it is it, it makes the world seem a lot smaller place, and you, you see how connected we really all are, you know, and that they're just people trying to do the best that you can.
• 12:06
  Duane Newton: And, um, and it also made me, you know, appreciate and recognize I had, I had a different experience and I had a better experience and, you know, there are things to be grateful for.
• 12:18
  Duane Newton: So I think it's just...
• 12:20
  Duane Newton: It's interesting how those I think it's very valuable for people to have that kind of experience.
• 12:28
  Duane Newton: You know, any kind of experience where you're getting out of your, your circle and you get to see- Yeah,
• 12:33
  Linoj Samuel: your comfort zone.
• 12:34
  Linoj Samuel: Although this was not by choice, to be clear.
• 12:37
  Linoj Samuel: Um,
• 12:37
  Duane Newton: but
• 12:38
  Linoj Samuel: crossing over into Iraq was really interesting because, again, Iraq has more oil than Kuwait, but it was very underdeveloped.
• 12:46
  Linoj Samuel: The people were living, um, you know, I think a lot of the, the towns we passed through, people were clearly struggling.
• 12:53
  Linoj Samuel: And so it was interesting to see that sort of different perspective across the border, as you said.
• 12:59
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and, and later on, I, I think that we were fortunate, in turn, because the US military came in and they, with their allies, they liberated Kuwait,'cause the Kuwaitis were being, you know, arrested and tortured by the Iraqis, by Saddam Hussein, really.
• 13:12
  Linoj Samuel: Not the Iraqi people, Saddam Hussein.
• 13:14
  Linoj Samuel: And so I think that that was really, um, um, that allowed a lot of folks to come back, and we were able to return to our jobs, and well, my parents were able to return to their jobs.
• 13:24
  Linoj Samuel: And, and we got back, and a lot of the country had been looted.
• 13:28
  Linoj Samuel: Everything that could be picked up was taken away, and a lot of people lost everything they had.
• 13:33
  Linoj Samuel: Um, but some random person had broken into our apartment and, and lived there and took care of all of our stuff.
• 13:40
  Linoj Samuel: And so all of our stuff was there.
• 13:42
  Linoj Samuel: And, and when my dad returned, he was like,"Oh, I'll just like, you know, you can just be our roommate." And that-- So there was a higher power looking out for us and everything, even our family albums, we got everything back-
• 13:52
  Duane Newton: Wow
• 13:53
  Linoj Samuel: um, when some people lost, had nothing left, you know?
• 13:56
  Duane Newton: Wow, that's amazing.
• 13:57
  Duane Newton: So I-- You were telling this story then of, you know, kind of your transition or your, your, where your interest in microbiology came from.
• 14:05
  Duane Newton: So the bored kid who reads the newspaper to entertain himself gets fascinated with infectious diseases and kinda goes from there.
• 14:15
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah.
• 14:16
  Linoj Samuel: So after high school, I went in to do an undergrad in medical microbiology.
• 14:21
  Linoj Samuel: So it was actually a, an MLS degree that I-- It was a four-year MLS degree that I did.
• 14:26
  Linoj Samuel: And I realized that...
• 14:28
  Linoj Samuel: I, I mean, I knew early on that I needed to do more, and so I had-- towards the end, um, I had applied for a master's program in the US, um, not knowing exactly how I would get where I wanted to go, uh, but I knew I needed more training, more education.
• 14:46
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and so, uh, I ended up at the University of Arizona in the master's program, but I ended up quickly transitioning to, into the PhD program without actually completing the master's.
• 14:58
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, was fortunate enough to work with Dr.
• 15:01
  Linoj Samuel: Richard Friedman, um, who was doing a lot of work in TB.
• 15:05
  Linoj Samuel: And somehow I showed up at the department with- without a mentor assigned to me, and he was like,"Well, you can hang around for a few months." And I did a few months, ended up becoming five years.
• 15:14
  Linoj Samuel: Um, so I, I, I was able to get, stay there.
• 15:17
  Linoj Samuel: I worked with TB, um- You know, I had a fantastic experience with some amazing people, uh, but got a real exposure to some of the challenges of being in basic science research, right?
• 15:29
  Linoj Samuel: The challenge of funding, of NIH work, of, of working with a bug that takes, uh, months to grow, uh, and, and finding out, you know, uh, if the ninety, ninety-five percent of your, of your, of your graduate school work amounts to nothing.
• 15:43
  Linoj Samuel: It's that five percent that really gets you You learn so much from the ninety-five percent, right?
• 15:49
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and so that, I think that's a, that's a common shared experience for most of us.
• 15:53
  Linoj Samuel: Um, but I think you, you, you, uh, you learn a lot in those times.
• 15:57
  Duane Newton: You, it sounds like your experience, uh, is very similar to mine, um, that, you know, that you learned that basic science as a, you know, as a field of profession for your long term maybe wasn't aligned with what you wanted to do or I mean, how, what, what was the feeling or, you know, kind of what was the thought process as you were thinking about what your next steps were?
• 16:26
  Linoj Samuel: Right.
• 16:27
  Linoj Samuel: So, um, I, I, I had been-- So towards the end of my PhD, you know, and I saw in real time how the struggles of NIH funding and, and this is-- my, my mentor was someone who had had years and years of NIH funding, but towards the end was losing, struggling with grant funding.
• 16:44
  Linoj Samuel: And, uh, I, I saw the struggles he was going through, and I knew that I still wanted to go back into more clinical space, uh, into more patient-facing roles, being directly engaged in clinical microbiology.
• 16:54
  Linoj Samuel: But I didn't know anything about ASM CPEP programs.
• 16:57
  Linoj Samuel: I'd been to ASM and never exposed to anything about CPEP programs.
• 17:02
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and, uh, luckily, there was one of his previous students who happened to have been, um, who had been in a-- who had gotten a CPEP fellowship.
• 17:13
  Linoj Samuel: And, and she-- I happened to have a random phone call with her, and she connected me to CPEP and ASM, that side of things.
• 17:22
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and so, of course, I applied.
• 17:25
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, of course, being an international, international student, it's a little challenging when these are competitive fellowships.
• 17:30
  Linoj Samuel: At the time, there were far fewer fellowships than there are, than there are now.
• 17:34
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and not all of them were accepting students at the time, at the, at the time.
• 17:37
  Linoj Samuel: So I interviewed.
• 17:38
  Linoj Samuel: I got one interview, and that was it.
• 17:41
  Linoj Samuel: And, um, and that was at University of Rochester with our shared mentor, Marilyn Menegus.
• 17:47
  Linoj Samuel: And I, and I distinctly remember her telling me at the time, and I'm reminded of this many times since, that, um, she thought I was a great candidate, but she thought I would, I would be-- I'd find my place elsewhere.
• 17:58
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and then, uh, maybe a month later, she calls and offers me the position.
• 18:03
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, so I knew I wasn't first choice, but you know what?
• 18:05
  Linoj Samuel: I could care less.
• 18:07
  Linoj Samuel: Um, I just wanted to get in, and I got in.
• 18:09
  Duane Newton: I wasn't the first choice either, so
• 18:13
  Linoj Samuel: So for all those who are struggling out there, um, I, I think that, you know, um, there, there's, there's always hope.
• 18:21
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and, and, uh, and, and it don't-- doesn't matter if you're the best candidate or not, you just gotta be persistent and, and keep trying and, um, hang in there.
• 18:32
  Linoj Samuel: So I, I got in, and I think, as you say, the rest is history.
• 18:35
  Linoj Samuel: I mean, I think that the CPEP fellowship was amazing experience, uh, with Marilyn, with Dr.
• 18:40
  Linoj Samuel: Hardy, with the, the extended family that are the CPEP fellows, past and present and, and future of that program.
• 18:48
  Linoj Samuel: And I think, uh, Marilyn was central to that, you know.
• 18:50
  Linoj Samuel: And, and even though she's gone now, her memory, I think, lives strong in, in all of us, right?
• 18:55
  Linoj Samuel: Um, so-
• 18:57
  Duane Newton: Do you have any favorite sayings or memories or, you know, takeaways from, from that time-
• 19:05
  Linoj Samuel: Oh
• 19:06
  Duane Newton: that, that you still, like it comes up or that it, it just reminds you of, of her in that experience?
• 19:15
  Linoj Samuel: I mean, there, there's so many, you know, from her party magic tricks that she did at parties to, uh, to her sayings.
• 19:23
  Linoj Samuel: I mean, I, I...
• 19:24
  Linoj Samuel: You did learn from her some things that you should not do, even though she did them.
• 19:29
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and so she taught.
• 19:30
  Linoj Samuel: Even when she wasn't teaching, she was teaching you something, right?
• 19:33
  Linoj Samuel: Um, but you know, things like, oh, the data is the data, you know.
• 19:37
  Linoj Samuel: You catch yourself think- saying things like that- Yeah that, that you picked up from her along the way.
• 19:42
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, but you know, I, I think she was committed to her art and her craft in a way that I think she was most of us can only hope to-
• 19:51
  Duane Newton: Yeah aspire to.
• 19:52
  Duane Newton: I, I was...
• 19:53
  Duane Newton: Like how many, how many times you walk by her office and you see her, you know, with a pile of, you know, set of data out in front of her, and she's...
• 20:03
  Duane Newton: You got her pencil out, and she's going through that, and it's-
• 20:06
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah
• 20:06
  Duane Newton: you think you're, you're working late, and it's 7:00, and you're heading home, and she's still, you know- Yeah.
• 20:12
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah, and-
• 20:13
  Duane Newton: she's at it
• 20:14
  Linoj Samuel: I, I think the one thing I took away from her, uh, maybe not so much her work ethic'cause I don't even try to match-
• 20:21
  Duane Newton: Yeah
• 20:21
  Linoj Samuel: but I think is to always be inquisitive and ask questions.
• 20:25
  Linoj Samuel: And even after 40 years in her career, she was still just as curious and always wanted to know, and she was always set about doing the right thing for the patients, you know.
• 20:35
  Linoj Samuel: The job is not just about metrics and numbers and budgets and whatnot.
• 20:39
  Linoj Samuel: In the end of the day, I tell people, I still tell people like,"I wanna make sure that that person that came in got the right answer that they wanted," you know, and I hope that I never get to a point where I don't care about that, you know.
• 20:48
  Linoj Samuel: I think that's what she can...
• 20:49
  Linoj Samuel: she taught us, I think.
• 20:50
  Duane Newton: I think you're...
• 20:51
  Duane Newton: That's spot on, and, you know, I think that's a central part of, um- you know, what we do in our, in our jobs and, and she certainly, um, was critical in helping to instill that.
• 21:09
  Linoj Samuel: Mm-hmm.
• 21:10
  Duane Newton: Um, what, you know, in that period, to, to me it was the greatest time of my life.
• 21:17
  Duane Newton: I mean, I f- I felt in that, that two years from a professional standpoint, I...
• 21:25
  Duane Newton: it, it was just so fulfilling.
• 21:27
  Duane Newton: But it wasn't, you know, it wasn't without challenges.
• 21:32
  Duane Newton: I mean, what are, what are some things that a- along the way, not necessarily just in your fellowship, what kind of bumps in the road did you, did you face, and how did you, um, how did you overcome them?
• 21:46
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah, I mean, I think you're always dealing with people's perceptions of you and expectations.
• 21:51
  Linoj Samuel: I mean, even just getting to the fellowship, I mean, people was like,"Really?
• 21:54
  Linoj Samuel: You got into that?" I mean, it's like I was like, yeah, you know?
• 21:58
  Linoj Samuel: No, I, I think that, um, there's always this like, you know, I think a lot of people struggle with imposter syndrome and, and I think that should never hold you back from, like, trying for things that you, you...
• 22:10
  Linoj Samuel: that they might, others might think that you can't achieve for yourself.
• 22:12
  Linoj Samuel: Um-
• 22:12
  Duane Newton: So you felt like an imposter?
• 22:15
  Linoj Samuel: Oh, I mean, at, at some point.
• 22:17
  Linoj Samuel: Don't we always feel like imposters even now?
• 22:19
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and I think that at some point you just have to work through it and, and sort of, I don't know, do it anyways.
• 22:25
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and, and so I think that, um, to think that, that you, you go through and, and even with my mentor and seeing the struggle that he went through later in his career, and that, that's his story to tell.
• 22:40
  Linoj Samuel: But I think that you can be succe- successful if you want and, and you can push yourself to crazy standards, but, um, trying to please others and meet standards others have for you.
• 22:51
  Linoj Samuel: But in the end, um, all you can do is be the best you can be in the position that you're in, right?
• 22:57
  Linoj Samuel: Um-
• 22:58
  Duane Newton: That's a very calm and kind of zen, uh, approach to things.
• 23:04
  Duane Newton: And, um, you've always...
• 23:08
  Duane Newton: Like, from the first time that I met you, that is how...
• 23:12
  Duane Newton: That's the energy that you project, is this, like- Not, don't get flustered, don't get worked up about things, and just kind of...
• 23:26
  Duane Newton: You have this ability, it seems, to just let things kind of, you know, water over a duck's back kind of thing.
• 23:36
  Duane Newton: Is there anything that upsets you?
• 23:39
  Duane Newton: Have you ever gotten upset and angry?
• 23:41
  Duane Newton: And do you like it?
• 23:42
  Duane Newton: I was thinking about it, like, I don't think I've ever seen Linoj bad.
• 23:46
  Duane Newton: You know?
• 23:47
  Duane Newton: You know,
• 23:48
  Linoj Samuel: I think that, I, I think all of us have a mask that we wear, right?
• 23:53
  Linoj Samuel: There's, there's things that get all of us flustered.
• 23:55
  Linoj Samuel: I cannot think...
• 23:56
  Linoj Samuel: Um, I'm sure there's plenty of times that that's-
• 23:58
  Duane Newton: I'm not talking about, like, teenagers at home kind of-
• 24:01
  Linoj Samuel: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 24:02
  Linoj Samuel: Good.
• 24:02
  Linoj Samuel: And so that, that's definitely a challenge.
• 24:04
  Linoj Samuel: But even going back, you know, you, you go back to your, um, just getting into the fellowship program.
• 24:10
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah, you go- I got in, but then making that deadline, you know,'cause I had a very short timeline between graduation and getting into the fellowship, and at the time, my mentor was having health issues, and he wasn't available.
• 24:23
  Linoj Samuel: And, and somehow...
• 24:24
  Linoj Samuel: And again, I think, you know, if you believe in a higher power, all that worked out.
• 24:28
  Linoj Samuel: Because my mentor was having all these issues, my committee felt sorry for me.
• 24:31
  Linoj Samuel: I was able to get out in time to, to make it to, you know.
• 24:35
  Linoj Samuel: Then I didn't think I, I didn't have, have a publication at the point coming out of my, my PhD, but somehow I was able to, you know, work it through and, and get the publication while I was still in my fellowship.
• 24:47
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and even at the end of the fellowship, you know, looking for jobs, and this is a theme even now, it's always been a theme, right?
• 24:55
  Linoj Samuel: You, you go through what now?
• 24:56
  Linoj Samuel: I just spent 11 years of schooling, and you're looking for the jobs, and you realize that this is tricky, right?
• 25:02
  Linoj Samuel: You're looking for a very specific kind of position.
• 25:04
  Linoj Samuel: And, um, and actually, Marilyn ended up keeping me for an extra month and a half because I was waiting for the right offer to come along.
• 25:12
  Linoj Samuel: And she was generous in that regard, and she was like,"No, you wait for it." And I had, again, so thankful to have her as a mentor, and turns out it happened to be in Michigan, which is a state that my wife and I were looking to move to, uh, even though she thought I was crazy.
• 25:26
  Linoj Samuel: But, um, you know, that's what, that's what worked out for us amazingly, you know.
• 25:30
  Linoj Samuel: And so I'm very grateful for all the people that have poured into me over the years.
• 25:35
  Linoj Samuel: So we think about getting flustered.
• 25:37
  Linoj Samuel: I think that a lot of times when I get flustered, I, I do, and every- all of us do.
• 25:42
  Linoj Samuel: I have to remind myself.
• 25:43
  Linoj Samuel: I think over the years, what you think makes you happy changes, right?
• 25:48
  Linoj Samuel: And you're, you have shifting goals and, and perspectives, and, you know, here's what makes you happy.
• 25:53
  Linoj Samuel: But I have to remind myself that if I, if I see myself where I am now and the way I'm blessed now, uh, and I, I, I told myself 20 years ago,"This is where you'd be," I'd be like,"Oh, this is amazing." But now that I have those things, I'm like,"Oh, this is terrible.
• 26:09
  Linoj Samuel: I gotta deal with all this crap," right?
• 26:11
  Linoj Samuel: But I have to remind myself that, that, you know, we've come a long way, and, um, we need to keep that perspective where we were or right now and, and how far we've come, right?
• 26:23
  Duane Newton: Yeah, I think that's, um, that's very well said because, uh- When you're in the middle of it, you know, there's a certain kind of emotion that's around it and, you know, and you're, you know, you're running a million miles an hour or you're dealing or handling and, but, you know, then there's a certain kind of pressure and, and then maybe there's also this You know, forward-looking part of you that's the next greatest thing or, you know, the next challenge or the next, um, finish line that you're trying to achieve.
• 27:04
  Duane Newton: Um, and you lose...
• 27:09
  Duane Newton: You can s- you can lose a little bit of the perspective of, of how far you've come.
• 27:13
  Duane Newton: And I, and I think, um, there's, there's kind of, especially early on, and I remember feeling this way as a, um, as a young person trying to determine, you know, what path am I gonna go on?
• 27:29
  Duane Newton: And first thing, I expected it to be very clear to me and, like, kind of on a silver platter.
• 27:36
  Duane Newton: It's,"Here it is.
• 27:38
  Duane Newton: Here's where you're gonna go." Uh, uh, that was wrong.
• 27:42
  Duane Newton: And then, you know, once you figure that out, you know, it's sort of like this exponential, cl- ideally exponential, if not, you know, at least linear kind of progression.
• 27:56
  Duane Newton: And you look back on it, and if you, if you actually track it from an emotional level, it's just like this- Yeah up and down, and up and down, and up and down.
• 28:05
  Duane Newton: And yet there's still progress, and there's still growth and development and maturity that happens.
• 28:14
  Duane Newton: And, um, I, I think it's hard, it's hard to appreciate that and believe that that's, um, that's, you know...
• 28:24
  Duane Newton: And especially when you're in one of those dips- Right that you, you are moving forward.
• 28:31
  Duane Newton: Um, but it, it's...
• 28:32
  Duane Newton: I appreciate you saying that because it's something that I experience and I've had to...
• 28:36
  Duane Newton: I've spent some time, like, e- even now, there's tough times you're going through and, like, there's a lot to be grateful for.
• 28:46
  Duane Newton: I'm, I'm moving forward, you know, growth is still happening.
• 28:50
  Duane Newton: Um- Yeah and that's a great, that's a great message.
• 28:54
  Duane Newton: That, um, you know, one of the things from, you know, your growth and development that I've always been very impressed with is, you know, the level of commitment, um, to serve our profession that you've had and the, the things that you've gotten involved in and, um, in your contributions to the field.
• 29:25
  Duane Newton: That's again, like, where you are now.
• 29:28
  Duane Newton: It's been a stepwise progression to, um, to, you know, to reach these, these positions.
• 29:35
  Duane Newton: But, you know, how did you get started?
• 29:38
  Duane Newton: What, what are the things that, that, that you identified that resonated with you that, you know, that called you to, to serve and attracted you to serve and, and, um, how did you work on that process?
• 29:53
  Duane Newton: Because I, I think especially for a, a, um, you know, a, you know, a current fellow or someone who's just starting out in the field, they see the Lonner Samuels that has, you know, all these years of experience and been on all these committees and they think, you know,"This is how I...
• 30:09
  Duane Newton: I gotta be like that if I'm gonna be successful." But it, it can manifest itself in a bunch of different ways, and I'm just curious as to how, how yours, how you manifested yours.
• 30:21
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah, I think that, one, I can't take a lot of credit for all that because I think a lot of people pour into, like I said, with Marilyn and others along the way.
• 30:30
  Linoj Samuel: It's really the people you meet, you meet along the way, the journey that sort of lift you up, right?
• 30:34
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and I still remember-- A lot of it has to do with, with making yourself available, right?
• 30:39
  Linoj Samuel: And when you make yourself available, also being willing to give of yourself, your time and energy to those things.
• 30:45
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, so I think if you are willing to serve, then be willing to serve.
• 30:49
  Linoj Samuel: Like, you know, we, we struggle sometimes with people who say they're willing to serve but then don't really come through on that, and that's a challenge.
• 30:56
  Linoj Samuel: But I think that I like to say when I was given the opportunity that I, that I made the most of it, and but that was because of the people that gave me those opportunities.
• 31:04
  Linoj Samuel: So Larry Gray early on, you know, um, recruiting me into the ASM CPEP committee.
• 31:10
  Linoj Samuel: The people at SCACM, so your regional microbiology, you know, associations like SCACM and SCASM and all.
• 31:16
  Linoj Samuel: They did a lot of work early on in, in SCACM, where it was an amazing way to get to know people, see how these organizations worked.
• 31:23
  Linoj Samuel: And being in program planning, I got to meet a lot of people that gave those talks and connect with them.
• 31:29
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and then after that it was, it was Larry Gray recruiting me into, into ASM and CPEP.
• 31:34
  Linoj Samuel: And honestly, it, it wasn't even that I had the best ideas on the committee or that I was the most effective.
• 31:42
  Linoj Samuel: It was just that I was available.
• 31:43
  Linoj Samuel: You know, when something needed to get done, I was available and I tried to make myself.
• 31:46
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, and I cared about the fellowships because that was what got me where I wanted to be.
• 31:51
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and so I, I think that those are things, it really is being available, being willing to connect, network with people.
• 31:58
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and I think small organizations like, um, like SCACM, like SCASM, like PASCV, you know, a great way to connect and meet with people.
• 32:06
  Linoj Samuel: Um, those are very helpful.
• 32:08
  Linoj Samuel: Um, the, the folks and, and who sort of encourage you.
• 32:11
  Linoj Samuel: And hopefully, when you get to that point, you're the person that encourages others, right?
• 32:14
  Linoj Samuel: We can't always just take.
• 32:16
  Linoj Samuel: I still remember the first time we did an ASM symposium, and it was Amanda Harrington and Susan Butler-Wu that sort of like said,"Let's do this." And I was like,"I'm like, I'm like nobody.
• 32:25
  Linoj Samuel: Why would I do an ASM symposium?" And they dragged me into it, and I was like,"Oh, yeah, we actually did this," you know?
• 32:30
  Linoj Samuel: And that's just like an amazing- And
• 32:31
  Duane Newton: you had a full room Yeah.
• 32:32
  Duane Newton: It was an
• 32:32
  Linoj Samuel: amazing experience because, again, we're all living with imposter syndrome.
• 32:37
  Linoj Samuel: We feed off of each other, and somehow it just worked, you know?
• 32:41
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and so I think I'm thankful to a lot of people that, that helped me take those next steps along the way.
• 32:47
  Linoj Samuel: And hopefully, you know, all of us are doing the same for others.
• 32:52
  Duane Newton: The, um...
• 32:53
  Duane Newton: You shared with me, um, k- along those lines, this, um, the Henry Ford summer, uh, program for young scientists that you've been involved.
• 33:06
  Duane Newton: Can you talk a, a little bit about, about that?
• 33:09
  Duane Newton: And I think that's a, that's a really interesting and important thing that you've been involved in.
• 33:16
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah.
• 33:16
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah.
• 33:16
  Linoj Samuel: I mean, I, I don't wanna overstate my involvement here because it's, it's a, a once a year thing in the summer.
• 33:23
  Linoj Samuel: Um, I do a session, um, you know, I'd like to do more, but the time is limited.
• 33:27
  Linoj Samuel: I do a session on, um, on, uh, infectious disease microbiology for up and coming, like, high school students in, in Metro Detroit, in the...
• 33:36
  Linoj Samuel: mostly in the Detroit city area.
• 33:38
  Linoj Samuel: And I think, again, it goes back to, you know, uh, folks always telling me,"Well, I don't have time," and to do things.
• 33:45
  Linoj Samuel: And I think we all have a responsibility to make time for some of these things, right?
• 33:49
  Linoj Samuel: There's always never gonna be enough time to get the things, everything done, and so it's a matter of setting priorities.
• 33:54
  Linoj Samuel: And I think that even in a small way, you can serve your community.
• 33:58
  Linoj Samuel: And again, this is a very small way, you know, um, but I think that that's what you need to do.
• 34:03
  Linoj Samuel: Um, then create a national committee, the regionals with local stuff.
• 34:07
  Linoj Samuel: And I think a lot of these kids are being exposed to a lot of things that are telling, giving them misinformation.
• 34:13
  Linoj Samuel: And any opportunity we have, and I have never been in a room where the, the, the high schoolers weren't engaged.
• 34:19
  Linoj Samuel: I mean, they were always 100%.
• 34:21
  Linoj Samuel: Obviously, I'm not approaching it from the perspective of lecture, right?
• 34:24
  Linoj Samuel: But they've always been 100% engaged, really interested, and the feedback I've gotten has been amazing from them.
• 34:30
  Duane Newton: That's, that's amazing.
• 34:32
  Duane Newton: And I think it demonstrates this, um, one of the, one of the attributes of a leader is that, you know, desire to give back and to teach and to coach and to mentor.
• 34:49
  Duane Newton: And th- those kinds of skills are not often, um, you know, the tools t- to use are not presented to us and, and the practice at honing the s- you know, the use of those, you know, developing the skills to use those tools are, are not available.
• 35:10
  Duane Newton: Um, and to, like, making that pivot from being, you know, the...
• 35:15
  Duane Newton: all that technical expertise and the clinical expertise that w- in part of our training and experience that, you know, now you're in-- you leave a fellowship and you're in a job where, you know, that's actually very little of what you do, and most of what you do is leading.
• 35:34
  Duane Newton: Can you talk about how- what that transition was like for you and, and, and the challenges that you had and, you know, the approaches that you've taken to overcome them and, and gonna be the kind of leader that you wanna be
• 35:55
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah, I think that, um, the initial transition was very hard, as I'm sure you can imagine, right?
• 36:00
  Linoj Samuel: I mean, I came in-
• 36:01
  Duane Newton: As I experienced.
• 36:03
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah,
• 36:03
  Duane Newton: as
• 36:04
  Linoj Samuel: well.
• 36:05
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, but the, the previous director had been gone for over-- for a while, and so that's not an ideal situation for as a fellow coming out of the CPEP fellowship to go straight into a job where you're completely in charge of a full-service twenty-four seven lab.
• 36:18
  Duane Newton: That hasn't had a director for...
• 36:21
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah, perhaps for seven months and, and that was less than ideal.
• 36:24
  Linoj Samuel: And I, and I probably called Marilyn a bunch of times along the way.
• 36:28
  Linoj Samuel: You know, if you wanna see me flustered, that would've been an ideal time
• 36:30
  Duane Newton: to
• 36:31
  Linoj Samuel: call.
• 36:31
  Linoj Samuel: Um, but you know what?
• 36:32
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, the lab had some incredible, uh, medical lab scientists who had been there for thirty, forty years, and they humored me along the way, you know, and I learned a lot and I grew with them.
• 36:42
  Linoj Samuel: Sadly, many of them are retired now, but there were some incredible people in the lab that helped me along the way that I still fondly remember.
• 36:49
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, but also, like you said, a lot of it is, yeah, well, you're hired for your technical expertise, but a lot of it is people skills, right?
• 36:57
  Linoj Samuel: Being able to connect with people, talk to them, interfacing with the other departments and, and making connections that go beyond the lab, right?
• 37:05
  Linoj Samuel: That is a huge part of your job.
• 37:07
  Linoj Samuel: And I think that when I was on s- the CPEP committee, we tried to push that part of it with the fellowship training programs is, you know, engage the fellows not just in the science, but in the people skills.
• 37:20
  Linoj Samuel: Like, you're meeting with industry people, have the fellows in the room with them.
• 37:23
  Linoj Samuel: You're meeting with, um, your supervisors for...
• 37:27
  Linoj Samuel: And it would be-- it, it wasn't...
• 37:28
  Linoj Samuel: You know, on, on many occasions, I found that that wasn't always the case, that the fellows weren't being involved in, in the administrative stuff, right?
• 37:36
  Linoj Samuel: And so, um, I think a key part is making sure that...
• 37:41
  Linoj Samuel: Now, a lot of it you're gonna learn along the way.
• 37:43
  Linoj Samuel: There's only so much you can teach in two years, right?
• 37:45
  Linoj Samuel: And this is a job where you learn, you're...
• 37:47
  Linoj Samuel: the entire of your life.
• 37:48
  Linoj Samuel: I learned something new today about my, my lab.
• 37:52
  Linoj Samuel: And so it's-
• 37:52
  Duane Newton: What was that?
• 37:53
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, I'd rather not talk about it.
• 37:55
  Linoj Samuel: It wasn't, uh, it wasn't what I was happy to give my experience.
• 38:00
  Linoj Samuel: But-
• 38:01
  Duane Newton: To keep every...
• 38:02
  Duane Newton: protect the innocent and identities.
• 38:06
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah.
• 38:06
  Linoj Samuel: Um, but I, I think that, you know, y- a lot of it is learning how to connect with people, communicate with them, and building relationships.
• 38:13
  Linoj Samuel: A lot of the departments were positively imp-- were very positive with the fact that we reached out to them and connected with them'cause they didn't have those kind of connections before.
• 38:22
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and so the reason for that is not just for them, it's for you.
• 38:27
  Linoj Samuel: And I learned so much from my colleagues in other departments and divisions.
• 38:32
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and, and so I think that's an important part of us growing is if you don't understand what people are doing with the results you generate or how it impacts their work, then you're probably not doing a great job, or you're probably not doing as good a job as you could
• 38:46
  Duane Newton: What about on, on the flip s- you know, if you kind of go more back on the inside of the lab and creating this culture, creating the kind of culture that you, that you wanna have.
• 38:59
  Duane Newton: Um, there's...
• 39:03
  Duane Newton: I like this term, I don't know if you like it or not, but I like the term, um, psychological safety.
• 39:10
  Duane Newton: Like you create, you create an environment, uh, where people feel psychologically, emotionally safe.
• 39:18
  Linoj Samuel: Mm-hmm.
• 39:19
  Duane Newton: Um, where, you know, they can, they feel comfortable bringing up issues, maybe challenging, um, a perspective politely, you
• 39:29
  Linoj Samuel: know?
• 39:29
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 39:33
  Duane Newton: What, how, how do you, what, what are the kinds of things that you've done to create that kind of environment, um, in your lab?
• 39:42
  Linoj Samuel: I, I think that I learned very early on that when I think I know all, I have all the answers, that's exactly when I don't know what I'm doing.
• 39:49
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and so asking questions, listening to people, and a lot of times just listening is, is...
• 39:56
  Linoj Samuel: It's not just because you're being nice, it's because I'm trying to save my own behind sometimes.
• 40:00
  Linoj Samuel: And listening gives me a lot of insight on things that are going wrong that need to be fixed.
• 40:04
  Linoj Samuel: But from the beginning, I, I told folks,"I'm gonna keep my door open.
• 40:08
  Linoj Samuel: You can walk in anytime." And, and they know that even now, I'll leave my door open whenever I can, um, so they can walk in at any time.
• 40:16
  Linoj Samuel: We've also had the benefit of being very lean-oriented.
• 40:19
  Linoj Samuel: So what that means is that if, uh, if someone comes up and says,"Well, we have this problem, we'd like it fixed." And I say,"Well, you know, well, here's what you do.
• 40:29
  Linoj Samuel: You have the lean training, you create a team, collect the data, and, and you're empowered to fix the problem," right?
• 40:34
  Linoj Samuel: And that's been a departmental approach, not just mine.
• 40:37
  Linoj Samuel: But you're empowered to fix the problem.
• 40:38
  Linoj Samuel: And a lot of times...
• 40:39
  Linoj Samuel: And we've had people that really step up and grow in leadership skills because they were empowered to fix the problem.
• 40:44
  Linoj Samuel: And maybe that wasn't necessarily the way I would've done it, but it solved the problem.
• 40:49
  Linoj Samuel: So part of it is also being, I think, understanding that you don't always have all the answers, but maybe your job is just to facilitate people getting to the point where that answer becomes manifest, right?
• 41:01
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and, and everything doesn't have to be a quick fix.
• 41:03
  Linoj Samuel: The quick fix is often a part of the problem.
• 41:05
  Linoj Samuel: You fix something and then you don't remember to fix it because you didn't look to the data.
• 41:09
  Linoj Samuel: Remember what we say, the data is the data.
• 41:10
  Linoj Samuel: You know, you don't have the data, and a lot of times people, they scream out,"There's this huge problem," and you reflect the data and it's not there.
• 41:17
  Linoj Samuel: But then they're satisfied because they've seen the data themselves and realize, you know what?
• 41:20
  Linoj Samuel: It's not that big of a deal.
• 41:22
  Linoj Samuel: But there's times there are things we didn't anticipate, and I think that that's...
• 41:25
  Linoj Samuel: But it's always asking questions, right?
• 41:28
  Linoj Samuel: And, and then listening to what the answers people are saying, getting multiple perspectives, um, of it.
• 41:32
  Linoj Samuel: And understanding maybe you don't always know everything, and that's okay.
• 41:36
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 41:37
  Duane Newton: And you're...
• 41:38
  Duane Newton: I think you've, you identified all things that are critical in being open, listening, questioning, being receptive to pe- you know, seeking out and being receptive to others' opinions.
• 41:53
  Duane Newton: Uh, admitting when you don't, you don't know and, and even if you've made, made a mistake or, you know, gone down the wrong path.
• 42:04
  Duane Newton: Uh, and the data will tell you if you've gone down the wrong path.
• 42:09
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 42:09
  Duane Newton: So all, all those things.
• 42:11
  Duane Newton: And I think that that's, th- those are really important lessons.
• 42:15
  Duane Newton: And I think that, um- You know, I, I reflect on the time, you know, my time, my 20 or so, 20 plus years in the lab and think about, um, opportunities that I had to do that better and how, um, how I might approach things differently, um, if given the opportunity again, you know, to, to do that.
• 42:50
  Duane Newton: But I, I think that, um- You're You're in, you're in a great place and, and I, I admire the things that you've done so much.
• 43:07
  Duane Newton: And, you know, I think it's You know what, maybe to kind of wrap up a little bit, what do you feel like is left for you to accomplish?
• 43:19
  Duane Newton: You know, what, what do you wanna- Mm what do you want to do?
• 43:22
  Duane Newton: Where do you see yourself going?
• 43:25
  Duane Newton: Um, I don't know where you feel like you are in, on your career continuum timeline, but, um, what are the things that, that continue to interest you or, or challenges that you feel like you haven't taken on yet that you wanna take on?
• 43:44
  Linoj Samuel: Well, first let me say I really appreciate those, those compliments coming from you, Duane.
• 43:47
  Linoj Samuel: You know, I respect, how much I respect you as a colleague.
• 43:50
  Linoj Samuel: Um, I've made plenty of mistakes along the way, let's be clear for the record, you know?
• 43:54
  Linoj Samuel: And most of it is when I think I know what I'm doing and you, you get a little cocky.
• 43:58
  Linoj Samuel: It's not even the first couple of years.
• 43:59
  Linoj Samuel: It's later on when you think you You get a little cocky and you start thinking you know what you're doing and you, then you start making snap decisions and you're like,"You know what?
• 44:06
  Linoj Samuel: Shouldn't have done that." Um, it's always, always, always a good idea to wait, think, you know, step back from the, from the situation and, and, and get o- other perspectives on it, you know?
• 44:18
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and, and so that, that's, uh, that's, it's always a learning process.
• 44:22
  Linoj Samuel: Um, as far as where to go, um, I mean, I just wanna make sure for, for the record, as of this recording, I'm still in, in my 40s.
• 44:33
  Linoj Samuel: So, uh- So- Uh,
• 44:36
  Duane Newton: I, I don't think, uh, it's gonna take that long to get this up and posted.
• 44:41
  Duane Newton: So you're still gonna be in your 40s.
• 44:44
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah.
• 44:44
  Linoj Samuel: So, um, it, it's, um, it, it, it's hard, it's-
• 44:48
  Duane Newton: Early career.
• 44:49
  Duane Newton: Your early career.
• 44:50
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 44:51
  Linoj Samuel: I, I don't think I'd say that anymore.
• 44:53
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah.
• 44:53
  Linoj Samuel: Definitely mid, mid-career.
• 44:56
  Linoj Samuel: But I think that that's always a question that's, that's challenging, right?
• 44:59
  Linoj Samuel: I, I think that, um, you ask yourself the same question.
• 45:03
  Linoj Samuel: And-
• 45:03
  Duane Newton: I did.
• 45:04
  Duane Newton: I, that's exactly when I started thinking about these things.
• 45:08
  Duane Newton: Like, what-
• 45:09
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah
• 45:10
  Duane Newton: and I, and I started questioning when I f- at that point, for me, and I'm not s- I'm not trying to put this on you, but I think, you know, back, it was, it was exactly the time when I started thinking, you know, there is m- I feel like there's more for me to do.
• 45:25
  Duane Newton: I don't know exactly-
• 45:27
  Linoj Samuel: Right
• 45:28
  Duane Newton: what it is.
• 45:28
  Duane Newton: And, you know, that was the topic of, uh, you know, the first episodes of the podcast, was talking about that whole process.
• 45:36
  Duane Newton: But, you know, for you- Yeah like where are you, where are you-
• 45:38
  Linoj Samuel: You know, and I've had the privilege of serving on CPEP, on, on CPHMC with ASM, and being engaged in a lot of stuff, but that, my term on that committee is coming to an end now, so the question really is what do I do now?
• 45:49
  Linoj Samuel: And I think that the older you get the, the harder it is to really push yourself to enter spaces that are new.
• 45:56
  Linoj Samuel: Because- You know, when you're younger, you need those spaces, but when you're settled and in a career that's got a, sort of a solid trajectory, you're like,"Well, I don't know if I need to do that." And I think that it's important to keep challenging yourself, and some things will work out, some things won't.
• 46:12
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and I think I can definitely say this institution's challenging me in many ways because we've got, you know, we've got our, uh...
• 46:20
  Linoj Samuel: We're, we're aligned with Michigan State University.
• 46:22
  Linoj Samuel: We- we're merging multiple hospitals.
• 46:24
  Linoj Samuel: On some level you're like,"You know what?
• 46:25
  Linoj Samuel: I'm getting too old for this." But at another level, I think that the challenge is what keeps you going.
• 46:30
  Linoj Samuel: Um, so I don't know if I have the answer to your question.
• 46:33
  Linoj Samuel: I, I think that, you know, at some level we're all still figuring out where we need to go, whether that's here or, or, or in a different role.
• 46:40
  Linoj Samuel: Like I...
• 46:41
  Linoj Samuel: You know, we're getting more into research and, and more into, uh, other administrative roles, some of which you're like,"Th- is this really what I wanna do?" And, and you might think that this is what you wanna do or don't wanna do, but some, some of those things you won't know until you try
• 46:56
  Duane Newton: them.
• 46:57
  Linoj Samuel: Mm-hmm.
• 46:57
  Linoj Samuel: And that's okay.
• 46:58
  Linoj Samuel: And some of those things you try and they won't work out, and some of them will.
• 47:01
  Linoj Samuel: Um, I really, I mean, I really at some level would love to get back into having a global perspective on things, being involved in that.
• 47:10
  Linoj Samuel: You know, my, my original interest was in, was in global infectious disease and clinical microbiology, and how that happens I have no idea.
• 47:17
  Linoj Samuel: Um, but, uh, I'd love to be able to give back a little bit more, you know, of what I, I, I took benefit of.
• 47:26
  Duane Newton: So that, um, the field is really changing and, you know, some of it is we're being-- it's being put upon from external forces.
• 47:35
  Duane Newton: Um, but I think from a positive standpoint, the relationships that we have with industry, uh, and the number of clinical microbiologists that are on the inside of, you know, product development on the industry side is at the highest it's ever been.
• 47:58
  Duane Newton: And, um, I think that's, that's certainly an area where you personally and Henry Ford as an institution has really grown and developed and, and shined.
• 48:13
  Duane Newton: Shined?
• 48:13
  Duane Newton: Shoned?
• 48:14
  Duane Newton: Shined.
• 48:15
  Duane Newton: Um, shined brightly in that.
• 48:18
  Duane Newton: And, um, and these companies are all, you know, they're global organizations too.
• 48:24
  Duane Newton: And, uh, like, I think that's, that's always been, you know, it's been a, a little bit of a behind the curtain kind of part of our profession that is, um, much more, much more open and, uh, interactive and collegial and...
• 48:45
  Duane Newton: Not that it ever wasn't, but I think, you know, just for the, the reasons that, that I said that, you know, I see that, that transition over the last several years has been pretty strong.
• 48:55
  Duane Newton: And, um, how, how do you see that?
• 49:00
  Duane Newton: Those kinds of interactions, um, shaping or, or impacting you, um, or attracting you?
• 49:08
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah, I think that there's-- it's really good to see a lot of CPEP fellows or CPEP-trained ABMM-certified individuals now in industry.
• 49:18
  Linoj Samuel: That...
• 49:18
  Linoj Samuel: You know, I think when you and I were starting out, that wasn't the case.
• 49:22
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and, um, and, and so, uh, not that there were fantastic people in industry, but there's so many more now, and I think the indus-the companies are better off for it.
• 49:32
  Linoj Samuel: I think they have a better ear to what the community is saying, what the clinical needs are, and a better handle on product development.
• 49:39
  Linoj Samuel: And I think that it's fantastic to see how well some of our colleagues are doing in the industry space.
• 49:44
  Linoj Samuel: Some of them made the transition later in their careers as well.
• 49:47
  Linoj Samuel: So I think, uh, it, it's also opened the doors for, for collaborations that are really meaningful, you know.
• 49:51
  Linoj Samuel: And I think where you're doing some real science and, and some really interesting stuff.
• 49:56
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and so it's opened more opportunities for CPEP fellows or ABMM-certified individuals to, to really grow in another capacity.
• 50:05
  Linoj Samuel: So it's, it's really good to see that.
• 50:07
  Linoj Samuel: I think that, you know, some of the trends, you know, we've sadly seen cuts in public health funding.
• 50:12
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and so that's been...
• 50:14
  Linoj Samuel: We've seen some loss of positions there, and so hopefully industry can compensate for that.
• 50:19
  Linoj Samuel: Um, but, uh, you know, and I think that there are some concerns.
• 50:23
  Linoj Samuel: I think with the future, we're seeing this greater lab consolidation.
• 50:25
  Linoj Samuel: We don't know what that means.
• 50:27
  Linoj Samuel: Um, and it is an area of growing concern.
• 50:29
  Linoj Samuel: What happens with the increasing sort of, um, consolidation or corporatization of clinical microlabs?
• 50:36
  Linoj Samuel: What does that mean for the future?
• 50:38
  Linoj Samuel: What does that mean for innovation?
• 50:39
  Linoj Samuel: What does that mean for patient care?
• 50:40
  Linoj Samuel: What does that mean for the next pandemic?
• 50:42
  Linoj Samuel: We don't know.
• 50:42
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, and I think we all have a role, we all have a voice in how that develops.
• 50:47
  Linoj Samuel: And I think it's, yeah, it's important to do your day job and, and, and, uh, and, and, and be involved, engaged there.
• 50:54
  Linoj Samuel: But I think that we all have a stake in how things develop in this, uh, field.
• 51:00
  Linoj Samuel: And I think w-with more development engaged
• 51:04
  Duane Newton: The, um, last question I'll ask you Is, is something I ask.
• 51:11
  Duane Newton: I, I think I've asked everybody that I talk to.
• 51:14
  Duane Newton: Um, and it's not, you know, what would you do differently, but it's if you had a message for your younger self, you know, the teenage, high school, you know, going...
• 51:25
  Duane Newton: or maybe college or wherever, you know, whatever age you pick.
• 51:28
  Duane Newton: You know, what would you go back and tell young Linoj, whatever version of young Linoj that, um, you care to, that needs to hear from, um, 40-something Linoj?
• 51:41
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah.
• 51:42
  Duane Newton: What would you tell that guy?
• 51:42
  Duane Newton: I
• 51:42
  Linoj Samuel: think, um, you know, I like your analogy when you, you know, when you step back and look at your life, you know, there, there's a, there's a steady cur- you know, there's a steady growth that you see.
• 51:53
  Linoj Samuel: But in that moment, you're looking at the dip, right?
• 51:57
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, it's like the stock market.
• 51:59
  Linoj Samuel: You know, you, you, you keep buying and selling, you're always gonna lose out.
• 52:02
  Linoj Samuel: You're trying to play the market, and it never works out.
• 52:04
  Linoj Samuel: You hold for long term ideally, right?
• 52:06
  Linoj Samuel: You hope.
• 52:07
  Linoj Samuel: And so it's, it's...
• 52:08
  Linoj Samuel: in that moment, things might be difficult, challenging, or not a great p- outlook.
• 52:14
  Linoj Samuel: I think that you have to really, uh, have the long-term perspective, be committed, work hard, um, connect with people, rely on others, you know.
• 52:22
  Linoj Samuel: And, and I think that, uh, and if you're in a position to strengthen or support somebody else, do that, you know.
• 52:30
  Linoj Samuel: I think a lot of folks would benefit.
• 52:32
  Linoj Samuel: You may not think so, that others would benefit from your support, but you cannot understate...
• 52:37
  Linoj Samuel: I cannot understate what value you can give to somebody else.
• 52:41
  Linoj Samuel: You don't have to be, um, a...
• 52:45
  Linoj Samuel: someone who's at the pinnacle of their career to strength- to lift up other people.
• 52:48
  Linoj Samuel: You can do it all the way along the way, and there's...
• 52:50
  Linoj Samuel: don't, don't give up those opportunities.
• 52:52
  Linoj Samuel: Like I said, I benefited from that.
• 52:54
  Linoj Samuel: Another thing I would say is that, to anyone out there is really, you don't have to be the smartest person in the room or the most qualified, um, and, and you can still accomplish a lot.
• 53:03
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, and you know, and I think that, um, I, I'm still, I still feel like I'm scratching the surface.
• 53:09
  Linoj Samuel: I feel like there's so much that, that could be done.
• 53:12
  Linoj Samuel: And again, all, all of it because of the support of so many people who are far more capable and smarter.
• 53:18
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, I was even in my graduate school lab, I was probably the, the...
• 53:23
  Linoj Samuel: not the smartest person there as well, right?
• 53:25
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, I'm not, I'm not being falsely humble here.
• 53:27
  Linoj Samuel: I'm just stating the facts here.
• 53:28
  Linoj Samuel: I'm saying that you can be persistent and, and get through and do a lot of things just by being available, being intentional, and in the role that you have, being responsible, right?
• 53:40
  Linoj Samuel: Yeah.
• 53:40
  Linoj Samuel: We see so many people step into roles and just...
• 53:44
  Linoj Samuel: then, then just not doing anything with it, you know?
• 53:47
  Linoj Samuel: And that's the biggest frustration I often come across.
• 53:51
  Duane Newton: There's so many...
• 53:52
  Duane Newton: You maybe stated it, uh, another way.
• 53:56
  Duane Newton: There's so many, um, different attributes that bring value to, you know, the role that you're in, the path that you're on.
• 54:07
  Duane Newton: And yes- You know, book smarts or, you know, technical competence is, is a component of that.
• 54:14
  Duane Newton: But there are, there are so many other things that you bring to the table that, that, you know, you've shared with us today that, um, make you, you know, the outstanding person that you are.
• 54:29
  Duane Newton: And I am super, super grateful to have had the time to chat with you, and for others to get to hear, um, hear about that too and experience it.
• 54:41
  Duane Newton: And I'm also grateful to have had you, not just as a colleague, but as a friend.
• 54:46
  Duane Newton: And I enjoy immensely every opportunity that we have, uh, to get together.
• 54:53
  Duane Newton: I think, you know, this might be the first time we had a laugh about something.
• 54:56
  Duane Newton: Maybe we did laugh earlier.
• 54:57
  Duane Newton: I'll have to go back and check the tape.
• 54:59
  Duane Newton: But, you know, I always laugh when I'm with you two, and, um, and you're, you're a super cool dude, and I, I appreciate you, Linoj.
• 55:08
  Duane Newton: Thanks for being on here.
• 55:09
  Linoj Samuel: Oh, thanks, Duane.
• 55:10
  Linoj Samuel: And I think that you're one of those people that did support me over the years, and I think that that value is interaction.
• 55:18
  Linoj Samuel: I, I think the last thing I would say, um, and, and you know, you've encouraged so many of us.
• 55:22
  Linoj Samuel: I know you have.
• 55:23
  Linoj Samuel: And so I think you're a role model in that regard.
• 55:26
  Linoj Samuel: Um, I, I think the other thing I would say is that i- in the end, the science is still an important part of who we are and what we do, right?
• 55:35
  Linoj Samuel: And I would be remiss if, and then if...
• 55:37
  Linoj Samuel: Or, or like Marilyn would be haunting if I didn't say the data's the data and let that drive it all, right?
• 55:43
  Linoj Samuel: Again, I, I think in the end, whether it's in your administrative role or you're doing, you're doing good science.
• 55:48
  Linoj Samuel: And I've seen this many times, people lose focus on, and yet what we are, we are still scientists, right?
• 55:55
  Linoj Samuel: And I think it's important to let the data drive your decision-making.
• 55:59
  Linoj Samuel: And I've seen people lose focus on what we're here to accomplish, right?
• 56:03
  Linoj Samuel: Uh, and what is your goal?
• 56:05
  Linoj Samuel: It's to do the right thing by the patient and, and making sure that there's good science backing it up.
• 56:10
  Linoj Samuel: Mm-hmm.
• 56:11
  Duane Newton: That's...
• 56:12
  Duane Newton: Uh, I can't say anything better than what you just said, and I won't try.
• 56:17
  Duane Newton: And that's a great way to wrap it up, and I think that'll be the title of this episode, The Data Is The Data.
• 56:25
  Duane Newton: Thanks again, Linoj.
• 56:26
  Duane Newton: Thank you.
• 56:27
  Duane Newton: And, uh, uh, chat, chat with you again soon.
• 56:34
  Duane Newton: If you're enjoying Navigating Your Path, please be sure to like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
• 56:41
  Duane Newton: If you'd like to directly connect with me, you can reach out via my podcast email, which is listed in the description of this episode.
• 56:48
  Duane Newton: It also contains the links to the podcast website and YouTube channel where you can check out more of my content.
• 56:56
  Duane Newton: Feel free to reach out if you'd like to share any comments or even make suggestions about future topics to discuss.
• 57:04
  Duane Newton: I'd also love to hear from you if you have suggestions for people for me to interview or even if you'd like to be interviewed by me.
• 57:11
  Duane Newton: You can also contact me if you'd like to learn more about what it is that I do as a professional development coach.
• 57:19
  Duane Newton: I look forward to having you join me next time.
• 57:22
  Duane Newton: Take good care.