Latest / The Occult Rejects / Against the False Self: Mitch Horowitz on Esoterika, Magick, and the Occult Path

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Against the False Self: Mitch Horowitz on Esoterika, Magick, and the Occult Path · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: What's going to happen?
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: What?
• 0:24
  Speaker 4: Welcome back to the occult rejects. Today we are joined
• 0:28
  Speaker 4: by Mitch Horowitz, author, historian, and one of the clearest
• 0:32
  Speaker 4: modern voices on occultism, new thought, magic, metaphysics, and the
• 0:37
  Speaker 4: hidden currents running underneath American spirituality. His new book, Esoterica
• 0:42
  Speaker 4: Formulas against the False Self gets into something that fits
• 0:45
  Speaker 4: this show perfectly. The fight against conformity, borrowed spiritual language,
• 0:50
  Speaker 4: internalized peer pressure, and the versions of ourselves we build
• 0:54
  Speaker 4: just to survive other people's expectations. Mitch describes the false
• 0:58
  Speaker 4: self as something that can grow out of that internalized pressure,
• 1:01
  Speaker 4: the voice that edits your real wish before you even
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: admit it to yourself. And one of the essentral questions
• 1:07
  Speaker 4: of the book is simple but dangerous. What do you
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  Speaker 4: actually want? Not what sounds enlightened, not with your family, religion, culture, therapist, audience,
• 1:16
  Speaker 4: or spiritual community told you to want, but the real
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  Speaker 4: wish underneath all of that. So today we're going to
• 1:22
  Speaker 4: talk about esoterica, practical magic, the full self, right relationship, cruelty,
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  Speaker 4: spiritual honesty, manifestation, new thought, and whether the occult can
• 1:32
  Speaker 4: still help us recover the parts of ourselves that conformity
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  Speaker 4: tried to bury. And before we introduce the guests, let
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: me introduce the other people joining me today. We got
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: my man Magus in the media, Brandon, What is going on, sir?
• 1:44
  Speaker 5: How are you?
• 1:44
  Speaker 6: Hello?
• 1:45
  Speaker 7: Everyone out there? Hello, Nick has always thank you for
• 1:48
  Speaker 7: having me. Hello to my fine Jin and Kaiva Rose.
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  Speaker 7: It's fantastic finally meets you, Mitch. I've been reading, watching
• 1:58
  Speaker 7: and listening to for sometime from the beginning of my
• 2:02
  Speaker 7: magic Magical journeys, and so this is definitely a pleasure.
• 2:06
  Speaker 6: Yeah, definitely, everyone out there.
• 2:08
  Speaker 7: Just dropped a brilliant conversation with Lon Milo Duquette on
• 2:13
  Speaker 7: my YouTube and all my channels, and so everyone go
• 2:16
  Speaker 7: definitely check out those things as you know it. We
• 2:18
  Speaker 7: are here in Magus in the media to help us
• 2:20
  Speaker 7: understand myth, magic and meaning in all of the world
• 2:24
  Speaker 7: and the stories that you and I love, and as
• 2:26
  Speaker 7: the world is forever moving into the chaos, into this dystopian,
• 2:30
  Speaker 7: arconic language and world, we are here to help you
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  Speaker 7: break free and walk out of that cave.
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  Speaker 6: So let's get into it.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you very much, sir, appreciate you making it and
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: my man Jim the Ninja, What is going on?
• 2:43
  Speaker 5: How were you?
• 2:44
  Speaker 8: What is a boss? Mister ninety three? Thank you so
• 2:46
  Speaker 8: much for having me on. Appreciate it. If people want
• 2:49
  Speaker 8: to check out Threshold Saints or The Gray Lodge, which
• 2:52
  Speaker 8: is serial experiments and speculative ontology, that's my show, Threshold Saints,
• 2:56
  Speaker 8: you can go Threshold Saints subsact dot com, or you
• 2:59
  Speaker 8: can go to our YouTube channel which is at Threshold
• 3:01
  Speaker 8: Saints and you can see all of our Gray Lodge episodes.
• 3:05
  Speaker 8: We are in the middle of the Lords of Coobal.
• 3:07
  Speaker 8: We are doing yes, Battlestar Galactica, the Gray Gnostic Edition,
• 3:12
  Speaker 8: so there'll be three episodes of that. We are continuing
• 3:14
  Speaker 8: also our speculative anthropologies of magic, and I will be
• 3:18
  Speaker 8: doing a second and third part to the Tie Magic
• 3:21
  Speaker 8: series as well as the Indonesian Magic Sorcery series, so.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Everybody look out for that.
• 3:26
  Speaker 8: We've got a Michael Hudson book We're going to do
• 3:28
  Speaker 8: for book club, tons of stuff this month, and I'm
• 3:30
  Speaker 8: dropping an episode today with one a secret person, but
• 3:34
  Speaker 8: one of the editors for Apocalypse Confidential, which is basically
• 3:38
  Speaker 8: the coolest online lit mag that exists and so people
• 3:42
  Speaker 8: can obviously when that drops tonight at seven you can
• 3:45
  Speaker 8: check that out. Thank you guys so much, and Mitch, yeah,
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  Speaker 8: I'm a big fan as well. Thank you very much
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  Speaker 8: for coming on. I'm very excited to be in dialogue
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  Speaker 8: with you.
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  Speaker 4: Hell yeah, thank you very much. Freda Jin and Kaiva Rose.
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: What is going on? Thank you so much for making it.
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: I really appreciate it.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, thanks for having me. It's good to see
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  Speaker 3: you all and looking forward to this conversation. I practice
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: traditional astrology. You can find me at eleven Kaibose thirty
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: three dot com to get a reading, and you can
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: also follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube. I post
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: daily and weekly astrology videos and I also do tarot
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: readings as well.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you, no, thank you very much. And before we
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  Speaker 4: introduce Mitch, there was something I did want to say
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: in the intro. I got a old screwed up with
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: everything going off on my computer after this episode. And
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: I'm sure you're going to love the guests. If you
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: enjoyed the guests, please I highly suggest. I'm sure we'll
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: get into some of it, but just the way he
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: did it on his own, Please go over to his
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: channel and check out what is your Wish? I'd say
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: the first fifteen minutes of that is I mean, it
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: was profound to me. You know, it's deeply impactful. I
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: think every magician should listen to that. It's so simple
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  Speaker 4: and beautiful. I really am not trying to whatever kiss
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  Speaker 4: this guy's ass because he's a guest.
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  Speaker 5: I'm being serious.
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  Speaker 4: I really do think what he said in the first fall,
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  Speaker 4: the fifteen minutes of that was fire.
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  Speaker 5: So please go check it out. Mitch.
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  Speaker 4: Please let everybody know anything I may have left out,
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: or anything you'd like to promote.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: Oh good to be here. Appreciate hearing from all of you.
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  Speaker 1: The new book Esoterica is a special one to me.
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  Speaker 1: It's the most personal one that I've ever written. And
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  Speaker 1: appreciate your comments about the address on the question of
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  Speaker 1: what is your wish? I think that's what all magic
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  Speaker 1: stems from and returns to.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah. No, so I was like, I.
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  Speaker 4: Think if you really get honest with yourself with that,
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  Speaker 4: only then can you really start to do magic, you know,
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  Speaker 4: or get the best out of it.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: One of the things I've been working on recently is
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  Speaker 1: considering the question of whether the wish itself is sufficient.
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  Speaker 1: The passionately felt, well defined wish may be triggered enough
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  Speaker 1: to set in motion the selective energies of the psyche,
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  Speaker 1: which is really at the back of all magic, all prayer, affirmation, visualization,
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  Speaker 1: whatever practices a person engages in, whatever ritual or liturgy,
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  Speaker 1: whatever wording or vintage, it is finding one's way to
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  Speaker 1: that path of agency or actualization or selection of the wish.
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  Speaker 1: And if those capacities are innate to the psyche, and
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  Speaker 1: I consider the psyche an amalgam of intellect and emotion,
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  Speaker 1: if those capacities are innate to the psyche, which I
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  Speaker 1: believe they are, then it may be that though passionately
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  Speaker 1: out wish is sufficient, so could it be there is
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  Speaker 1: no spoon and that the wish is enough. That's something
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  Speaker 1: that I'm working with in the new book.
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  Speaker 4: Do you think I might actually uh, you know, not
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  Speaker 4: to sound you know, just getting soft to sound in here,
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  Speaker 4: but do you think maybe you really could actually do
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  Speaker 4: with touching into something that you actually love, like or
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  Speaker 4: like the passion or the love behind what you're doing
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  Speaker 4: or want to do? Is that like you think the connection?
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  Speaker 1: Maybe I don't. Yes? In short, yes, I I I
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  Speaker 1: do speak in terms of passion more than I speak
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  Speaker 1: in terms of love, but it's inter changeable, and in
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  Speaker 1: the way I use that, I suppose that that drive,
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  Speaker 1: that passion for self expression broadly defined whatever it is
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  Speaker 1: when I speak in terms of creativity, when I speak
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  Speaker 1: in terms of self expression, there could be as many
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  Speaker 1: definitions of that as there are individuals. But that desire
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  Speaker 1: to be seen, to be appreciated, to be expressive of
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  Speaker 1: oneself in the world, that's the love. That's the passion
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  Speaker 1: that I think is the engine of whatever psychical capacities
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  Speaker 1: we may possess. And it's possible that the focus and
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  Speaker 1: definition and identification of that passionately held wish may be vehicle.
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  Speaker 1: Enough question is really finding that wish in a way
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  Speaker 1: that doesn't get diluted and muddied by conformity, by decisions
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  Speaker 1: that have been made by someone else, including decisions that
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  Speaker 1: we think of as emanating from hallowed spiritual history, but
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  Speaker 1: they really just become a kind of template that we
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  Speaker 1: learn to rely upon and that we think of as
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  Speaker 1: truth based upon overwhelming familiarity. Like when people talk about
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  Speaker 1: the difference between white magic and black magic. These are
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  Speaker 1: all just metaphors and I can provide a dictionary definition
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  Speaker 1: of that as well as anybody can, but I don't
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  Speaker 1: want to. I don't want to because I think that
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  Speaker 1: dictionary definition of like service versus selfishness. If I want
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  Speaker 1: to pull a concept out of the out of my
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  Speaker 1: Bartlett's Book of Divine Quotations, I don't know that that
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  Speaker 1: really holds up. Where does one end and the other begin?
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  Speaker 1: Where would the line of demarcation end in the other.
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  Speaker 1: It's all about self expressiveness, and within that, of course
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  Speaker 1: there's relationship, there's reciprocity. But I want to bust up
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  Speaker 1: these ideas that impel us internally to dilude or even
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  Speaker 1: become strangers to what it is that we really want
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  Speaker 1: a question of acting on that possibility. Those are different questions,
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  Speaker 1: very legit, but different, and I want us to start
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  Speaker 1: from that baseline of what do you want?
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  Speaker 3: You know?
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  Speaker 5: I wanted to ask you.
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  Speaker 4: I guess maybe the reason in the book do you
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  Speaker 4: not saying that like you're saying this and like a
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  Speaker 4: you're better than but do you think that maybe that's
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  Speaker 4: something that people doing this is lacking in the magical
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  Speaker 4: community or amongst people practicing Is that the reason why
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  Speaker 4: you put out the book because you think maybe this
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  Speaker 4: is something people need to hear more.
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  Speaker 1: Of to a degree, to a degree, I do find
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  Speaker 1: that well. First of all, I think it's difficult to
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  Speaker 1: pursue anything with gusto absent really clear definition and an
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  Speaker 1: honest definition and real inner sincerity and certainty about what
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  Speaker 1: is wished for. The funny thing is, I believe that
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  Speaker 1: barring extreme countervailing measures, which do exist, we live under
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  Speaker 1: a complexity of laws and forces. Barring that, we do
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  Speaker 1: get what we want. The emotions the body, they have
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  Speaker 1: a tendency like a horse that is just pulling a carriage,
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  Speaker 1: and we may or may not have reins, or we
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  Speaker 1: may or may not have the ability to use the reins.
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  Speaker 1: Those forces go where they want, and they can deliver
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  Speaker 1: us to very alien territory because we haven't acknowledged what
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  Speaker 1: we want. You'll hear people, for example, say something like
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: I want a relationship, do they? And then they tell
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: stories about dating all these inappropriate people, And the question becomes,
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: if you really want a relationship, then why they repeat
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: proximity to people who are inappropriate. I'm just using that
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  Speaker 1: as one example among any number, And I think we're
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  Speaker 1: really strangers to ourselves. So we might affirm, visualize, ritualize,
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  Speaker 1: do magic. And I think all that gets blunted or
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  Speaker 1: all that can get very confused because at the base,
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  Speaker 1: at the base, we're strangers to ourselves due to internalized
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  Speaker 1: conformity and other forces.
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  Speaker 5: I think it's huge strangers to ourselves for.
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  Speaker 7: Sure, internalized conformity. That's a great term, and I completely agree.
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  Speaker 7: I think that's something that most of us can't look
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  Speaker 7: in the mirror at ourselves and realize that we're most
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  Speaker 7: likely conforming.
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  Speaker 1: Two.
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  Speaker 7: You know, it's kind of like the thought, but it's
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  Speaker 7: more like you become your own thought police based upon
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  Speaker 7: on looked at things you know.
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  Speaker 1: And that's powerful. That's really powerful.
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  Speaker 2: You know.
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  Speaker 1: Sometimes people will say that they want something within and
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  Speaker 1: there might be a tendency to counter that in saying
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  Speaker 1: that's superficial, and we might attribute that to something called conscience.
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  Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's true. People very often have very
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  Speaker 1: good reasons for what they want. And I would even
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  Speaker 1: say that's true of a mature adolescent. I would say,
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: if you were to ask a sensitive twelve year old,
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  Speaker 1: what do you want, he or she could probably name
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  Speaker 1: that and could probably defend it. And defend it well.
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  Speaker 1: And I think we find ourselves sometimes both as adolescents
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: and adults, just egregiously misplaced, and we go through all
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: these psychological calisthetics to try to deal with that misplaced.
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  Speaker 1: But it may be that the individual is not among
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: company that he or she wants to be in, is
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: not doing what he or she would like to do.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: And a lot of this, a lot of this gets
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  Speaker 1: accepted internally, and it gets reinforced externally, maybe by friends
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: or one's shrink or workmates or what have you, or
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: for that matter, religious literature that we experience in translations
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: of translations of translations, and people are quoting all the
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: time from this near and far Eastern religious literature that
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: has gone through so many different permutations, that doesn't reach
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: us in its original language. It's overwhelmingly likely that I
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: cannot even read it in its original language, and for
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: which we may not even possess the originals, which is
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: true for example, of the hermetical literature, of the philosophical
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: hermetic literature, we don't have any of the originals from Alexandria,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: either in scroll form or clay tablets. We don't have
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: any of the original manuscripts even from the Renaissance in
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Byzantine Greek, which got translated into Latin, which got translated
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: into English, and the Hermetic literature. As far as the
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: span of humanity goes. Let's say we just talk about
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: the Byzantine Greek from the Renaissance on the scale of
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: human history that was five minutes ago. We don't even
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: have those originals. And yet people speak authoritatively about what's
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: real and what's fake hermeticism, Well, guess what. We're all
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: living off fumes in a certain way, or fragments, I
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: should say, so, I guess my suggestion is that yes,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: be steeped and be schooled in whatever fragments have reached us,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: in whatever way they're accessible. But verify. It falls to
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: each generation, it seems to me, each generation of seekers
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: to verify, not just in some rhetorical way, but really
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: and truly so is that true? Is that so? Is
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: forgiveness universally good? Is service something that you want to
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: do or that's universally good? And what do you really
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: mean by it? And do you really mean it? And
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: wrestle with these things, wrestle with these things. There's a
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: power just in that.
• 16:39
  Speaker 5: Is there anything anybody else wanted to ask or say
• 16:42
  Speaker 5: where I keep going?
• 16:43
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I just to say, and I just really like
• 16:47
  Speaker 7: the idea of the verification process. And it's almost like
• 16:50
  Speaker 7: we get so caught up in our head with abstractions,
• 16:53
  Speaker 7: especially in the world of reading, and maybe not as
• 16:57
  Speaker 7: practicing as much as we need to. But then even
• 17:00
  Speaker 7: the practice in the world when we're around others of
• 17:03
  Speaker 7: how to hold a conversation that may go up against
• 17:05
  Speaker 7: things that we think or believe in. Then being able
• 17:07
  Speaker 7: to actually have a conversation, a dialectic between others, not
• 17:11
  Speaker 7: to change anybody's mind, but to just be able to
• 17:15
  Speaker 7: relate in a way you know what I mean.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Dig yeah, yeah, And to have a real exchange. It's
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: a beautiful thing to have a real exchange. Most of
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: what we do is we just bide our time waiting
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: to speak. I used to know a guy I think
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: I mentioned this in the book. He's now dead, smart
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: but aggressive, and I would watch him and during conversations,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: imperceptibly to him, his lips would actually be moving while
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: other people would be talking. He'd just be waiting to
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: leap in. It's not an exchange. I don't know what
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: you call it. I don't even but it's not that
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: and having those exchanges also means having probably fewer relationships
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: and better and fewer relationships. I think most of us
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: sustain far too many relationships. Social media has a lot
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: to do with that, but I guess that we probably
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: encounter more people in the space of a day than
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: our ancient ancestors might have in the space of a lifetime.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: We're overwhelmed with these relationships, and they're not of quality.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, just going on to any social media platform
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: for five minutes will tell you that. And I think
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: that over we're overwhelmed with contacts, and I think I
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: think having fewer relationships abts better exchanges.
• 18:49
  Speaker 5: Oh, I totally agree with that.
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: I even think that is like part of what's screwed
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: us up socially with the Internet. It's given us way
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: many options to attach ourselves to other people.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I really dig that the Internet. It certainly
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: hasn't changed human nature, but Sali Lama said, he said,
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: modern men and women have not created somesora, but they
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: certainly got a lot better at selling it. And so
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: this is this illusory world that we live in. These
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: airsats relationships, these artificial exchanges that only seem like conversations
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: that are characterized by sarcasm, self positioning, rhetorical questions. They
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: run riot online and we as a human community are
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: just not up to the task being plugged in globally
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: twenty four to seven. We're just not up to it.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: And I think the barometer of how we're doing as
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: a human community is probably present in the nature of
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: online idiom. And it is not pretty. It is not pretty,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: and I think that false teach individual to address.
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I really enjoyed the idea of like what is
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: the wish? Because I think ultimately, like the more you
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: do your practice, there actually is nothing. Because I'm a Buddhist,
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: so like part of it it's like, you know, what
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: can actually satisfy me? You know, like if I am
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: fully content in myself, like what can actually satisfy me?
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: Like I don't, and so I always run into it's like, well,
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: it's like my family or like keep them safe, right,
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: Like that's the wish? And so it is interesting when
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: you think about like what is the most pure wit
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: not even you know pure whatever, but like you know,
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: what is the most what is it that you actually need?
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: I love that and I think that is something that
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: people need to contemplate because when they see people doing
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: all these crafts online and all this stuff, they're like,
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: I want that, I want that love potion, I want
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: that money maker spell, I want you know whatever, it
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: is not realizing it's like, you know, you pull that thread,
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: something else comes with it, right, Like you pull that thread?
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: How hard are you going to pull that thread? And
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: then what's going to topple around you? And I think
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: people are just pulling threads everywhere and it's creating kind
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: of like a tangled mess in a way. So I think,
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: you know, asking that basic question is super essential.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm always trying to bear in mind what
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: you're saying that with that thread comes a lot of
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: other fabric that may be very difficult and very problematic.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: And I have to wrestle with my lack of perspective.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: There are things I've wanted in life that had I
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: received them, I realized later would have been probably tragic,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: possibly even disastrous. And I really wrestle with that. I
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: really wrestle with that because there are two sides to it.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: You know. One could say, one could say the old
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: formula careful what you wish for? And there's wisdom in that, because,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: as you were eluding, that threat is going to bring
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: other threads, and I may not want what's coming. Then
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: again there's another part of me that feels Look, if
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: the thing wished for, whatever it may be, feels like
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: drawing breath itself, then maybe you just accept the consequences.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: And maybe the consequences are my payment. We have to
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: pay for everything, no matter what, and everything comes with
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: a cost. There's consequences no matter what. And if the
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: wish is felt like a parched person feels the need
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: for water, or a person gasping for breath feels the
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: need for that cleansing breath, maybe the consequences are worth it.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: These are questions that the individual really has to face.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I agree with that.
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: I think of like life purpose, you know, because I
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: also do astrology, so it's like we all have a
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: life purpose. And I think sometimes we tap into early
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: to like we know we're supposed to do something, and
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: we think it's not going to happen if we don't
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: take extraordinary effort. But sometimes if we actually just allow
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: ourselves to unfold naturally like a beautiful flower, things just
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: naturally happen and we just have the foresight because we
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: are aware of our purpose in life. Right, So I
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: think I agree with you in that sense where it's
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: like we can feel it so much inside that I
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: have to put my energy towards this thing, and I
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: think that's healthy.
• 23:42
  Speaker 6: So I agree with you.
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: It's like that balance between like, Okay, what is my purpose?
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: How am I unfolding in life? What am I forcing?
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: Because I see other people are doing it, and that's
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: like that indoctrination you're talking about. So I totally agree
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: with that.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: It's interesting. I didn't write my first book, A Cult America,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: until I was forty three years old, and I had
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: several years earlier all but given up on writing. I
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: had left journalism, I went into publishing. I was bopping
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: around and publishing for a long time. It was very
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: good to me in many ways, but there was also
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: a sorrow in it because it wasn't the writing that
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: I had started my career doing. And then I started
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: to rediscover myself as a writer, and very soon, within
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: a few years my first book came. But it wasn't
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: until I was in middle age or early middle age,
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: and I had given up on it, and yet I
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: can look back, and I could see I could see
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: that wish kind of irradiating from within me. I was
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: getting in closer and closer proximity to it. And when
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: that one wrinkle occurred, that opened the door to my
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: writing again, everything started to happen very quickly. For a
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: long time, I didn't know what I wanted to write about.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: I remember when I was a kid. I knew I
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: live in New York City. I didn't want to be
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: writing book reviews for the Village Voice or something like that.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: I knew that I didn't want to be writing about politics,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: because there was enough people doing that, and I just
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: didn't have the I didn't have the subject. I just
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: didn't have the subject. And then I got fired from
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: a political publisher and I wound up pitching my tent
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: at a new age publisher, and to my thrill and
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: my surprise, I started to groove to things that were
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: on the backlist. Books on taro, books on new thought,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: books on astrology, books on martial arts. Suddenly this whole
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: new world opened to me, and I realized that the
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: people that I admired within that world, Madam h. Po Bleovatski,
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: many Hall, Edgar Casey Neville Goddard. They weren't being written about,
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: if they were being written about at all, they weren't
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: being written about fairly or with any kind of depth
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: or fiber within the mainstream, and their careers and lives,
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: it seemed to me, were worth defending, and that really
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: became my first book. But it was a dream that
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: I delayed or deferred, or thought I had even abandoned.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: There was a retreat, but that really wasn't a retreat
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: in a sense that there was preparation going on, And
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: it wasn't until that very instant where for me it
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: was writer meeting subject that it could all happen so
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: apropos of what you're saying. It certainly was no rush.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: It was no rush. I mean, I had two kids
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: at the time, I had been working and continued to
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: work in a corporate publishing job. But the moment just.
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: Came, as I was saying, I totally forgot. Yeah. Are
• 27:03
  Speaker 5: you originally from.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: New York born and bred?
• 27:07
  Speaker 5: Yeah, totally forgot. Yeah.
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: Oh wow, okay, all right, yeah, I grew up on
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: Long Island, ron concor Oh okay yeah yeah.
• 27:13
  Speaker 5: Yeah, nice nice.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Bel Rose Queens.
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, I lived in Bayside before I oh got
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: before I moved out of New York.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: Cool.
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you mentioned, you know something that I thought was interesting.
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: I hate to have you kind of repeat it, but
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: I heard it on when you're on that what is
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: your wish that Gurdjieff thing with to think? You know, Yeah,
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: I thought that was actually pretty pretty cool if you
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: don't mind maybe talking.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: Oh sure, it's challenging and it risks. In fact, there's
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: a certainty that it'll be misheard. The Greek Armenian spiritual
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: philosopher gi Gurjief, who is I think just one of
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: the most significant forces of the twentieth century. He visited
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: the United States for the first time in nineteen twenty
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: four and a reporter this story may be apocryphal, but
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: it has a certain vintage. It's certainly been repeated within
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: the community of ideas that Gerjief brought. A reporter said
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: to him, mister Gerjeef, can you summarize your message for
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: the people of America in one sentence? And he paused
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: for a moment and said, think. And there's a danger
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: in that story because first of all, everyone who hears
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: it thinks it's the other guy who's not doing the thinking.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: The impulse is always right on my fucking neighbor. Mike
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: needs to hear that, you know, or people immediately drag
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: it into politics, and it's not about any of that. Humanities,
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: among humanities many crises is that we don't think. It's
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: airsat's thinking. Just as Brandon and I were talking about
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: this notion a moment ago of an air set's exchange
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: not really an exchange. And we have an emotional center
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: very powerful. Gur Jief compared it to a horse, the
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: power of a horse. We have a physical center very powerful,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: and we have a thinking center, which is probably the
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: least powerful of the three. If that weren't so, there
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: would be no addictions, there would be no outbursts of rage,
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: there would be no consumption of things that I know
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: are unhealthy for me. The intellect would be in the
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: driver's seat. Okay, here's how it's going to be. But
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: none of that marks our lives. And one modicum of selfhood,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: one small, small measure of selfhood, is relying more fully,
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: making at least an effort to rely upon the thinking center.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: And it's very hard. It's in them, it's it's among
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: the true crises of the human situation. That thinking center,
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: it really doesn't get used. And the emotions the body,
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: the drive to consume, the bodily urges, sexual urges, consumptive urges, intoxicants, rage,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: negative emotions. These things are wildly, wildly in charge and
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: running things. The thinking center is this distant sort of
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: figure who might not have rains to control the horse,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: who's kind of getting bounced around by the circumstance of events.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: And I think that's a a fragment of what he
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: was saying, what he was trying to get across. It's
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: one of those statements that it's one of those statements
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: that I believe a person ought to try to live
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: with for six months. Not translated into other words, not saying, oh,
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: it's like this, Not think that it describes somebody else's problem.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: Not think that, oh, it's the people that don't agree
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: with politically, they're the ones who need to think. They
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: need to fucking think. You know, it's not any of that.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: It has to do with self observation.
• 31:35
  Speaker 5: Thank you.
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: I thought that was awesome when you said it on
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: the other show, so I wanted to touch it on here.
• 31:41
  Speaker 5: Anybody have anything they want to add or ask.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: I actually have something, Mitch.
• 31:46
  Speaker 8: I know your entire book is about like taking agency,
• 31:49
  Speaker 8: and that's what you've been speaking on this for the
• 31:51
  Speaker 8: past thirty minutes. But I want to ask some practical
• 31:55
  Speaker 8: steps for the.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Magician who's listening. What can they do to sort of
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: take agency of their own perception, their own consciousness, and
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: their own practices kind of brought up.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that there's very little in the way of
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: ritual in the book, which is by design. It does
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: open with an exercise in wishing in the first chapter,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: and we've spoken a little bit about that. As far
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: as the agency for the magician, for the person who's
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: trying to find his or her way, it seems and
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: I'm right there with them. I'm right there with them, because, boy,
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: when you get that reminder of how weak we are
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: in life, of how we are at the mercy of
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: other forces, that is a tough impression. That is a
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: tough impression to come under. I've had situations. Everybody listening
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: has had situations where let's say someone owes you money
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: in a professional context and they ain't and you, boy,
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: do you feel a fucking paucity of power? You can
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: be angry. You can be this, you can be that,
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: But the overwhelming experience, if you're honest with yourself, is Powerlessness.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: Can't really make anybody do anything, and a piece of
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: paper is not going to make them do anything either.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: One of the things that occurred to me is that
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: power is relationship and timing. I could put it more plainly,
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: but it might not make any difference in people's lives.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, in this world, power has is money. Anybody
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: who doesn't know that doesn't know much about power or money.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Power is sex, usually sublimated to money, but sometimes overcoming money.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Power is security, but that's situational. That situational, and we
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: rarely have our hands on the levers of any or
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: all of those things. Unless you're Will Smith and I
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: am legend, you're not providing security to very many people.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Unless you're walking around with a billion dollars. You're not
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: waving around. You know, power in that way temporal, to
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: be sure, but damn it, temporal power can make a
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: hell of a difference. So for those of us who
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: don't have our hands on those leavers. It seems to me,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: for the magician and for just anybody in the world,
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: power is relationship and timing. I ask people to think
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: of circumstances. Could be yesterday, could be an hour ago
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: where you felt at ease and secure and relaxed in yourself,
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: You felt seen and you felt consciously right. Look for
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: the company that you were in at that time. There
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: was company that you were in, and that relationship, the
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: nature of it is sacrifanct, and that is power. That
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: is power. And when you feel the opposite, you feel unseen,
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: you feel minimized, you feel disrespected. People don't hear you,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: they don't get you. They ask rhetorical questions intended to
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: expose weaknesses. Pay attention again in that setting to the
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: relationship that is at play, and there is one There
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: is one get away from those people. And I mean
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: that in the most literal sense, the most literal sense. Yes,
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: that type of relationship is bad, but the specific relationlationship
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: is bad. And those things are very common. There might
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: be workmates, might be a friend save us from our friends.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: They're the ones who have closest proximity to us. They're
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: the ones who get to lob the stealth insults at us.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: And you know, it might be an in law. I
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: don't know, and we fear severing these relationships because we
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: fear the consequences. Usually, I mean, the consequences will be there,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: but they're usually a great deal milder than we surmise. Anxiety,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: by its nature, is anticipatory, and usually what comes is
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: much much milder than what is expected. But some things
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: are worth suffering consequences for it. Being respected is worth
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: suffering consequence. For it's worth it. You will bloom. You
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: will bloom, and so power, it seems to me, is
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: right relationship, and it's also timing. When someone else asks
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: you for something. Let's say you're a contractor, let's say
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: you're an artist, Let's say you're a freelancer, whatever it is,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: somebody asks you for something. That ask is the one
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: time you have power. So be clear about what you want,
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: what you need. You may you can't control anything. Once
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: the ball is in play, there's different people involved and
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: they're going to do whatever they feel like doing that.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: Timing is very precious. You're yes or your no is
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: the one precious instant where you have power. Exercise it,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: use it. So timing and relationship seem to me to
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: be the ingredients of power, and it's much better to
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: exercise those things in terms of doing your best. We
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: can't control everything, but doing your best to lay the
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: foundation of your environment, and then the magic will be
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: much better, and then the pursuits will be much better.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: There's a passage I like in the first book by
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Carlos Castaneda, the Teachings of Don Juan, and mainstream culture
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: never has or never will understand Carlos Castaneda. They'll just
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: tell you, Oh, he was a fraud, he was full
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: of shit. And I am very aware that he almost
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: certainly invented a lot of the forensics around his work.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: And I can very clearly understand historical forensics. But what
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: I can understand and what we as seekers can understand
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: that the mainstream cannot is the presence of the search,
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: is the truth of transcendent experience, experience that goes beyond
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: cognition and motor skill, which is the only thing that
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: the mainstream has been educated to the value or see
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: or acknowledge. And Carlos was tapped into something that was
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: of a different current. And there was a story in
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: his first book that I've always liked where he's on
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: the porch of his teacher, Don Juan, and he's in
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: danger because there's a witch he wants to attack him,
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: and Don Juan tells him that on this little porch
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: he must find his power spot, and once he's on
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: his power spot or his spot of happiness, he will
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: be strong, he will be powerful, he will not fall
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: victim to this witch. And he spends the whole night
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: searching for it, and he finally finds it just in time.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: It seems to me that that symbolic of relationship, finding
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: that power spot, finding that spot of happiness, as he
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: puts it, is symbolic of relationship. Where do you belong?
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: When do you belong there? Live with that, Live with that,
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: because that, to me is a study in power.
• 40:07
  Speaker 8: I have a quick follow up for you mentioned Thank
• 40:09
  Speaker 8: you so much for that answer is great. It's sort
• 40:13
  Speaker 8: of a little left field from what you're talking about,
• 40:15
  Speaker 8: but it has to do with right relationality and something
• 40:18
  Speaker 8: that I discuss a lot is geoontological relationships, like how
• 40:22
  Speaker 8: we relate to Obviously you're familiar with this. It's how
• 40:24
  Speaker 8: we relate to the land and in ways to sort
• 40:26
  Speaker 8: of repair the karmak you could call it karmic relationships
• 40:29
  Speaker 8: with those things. Do you have any advice on how
• 40:35
  Speaker 8: people should position themselves in that relationship as well as
• 40:38
  Speaker 8: do you think that not just having but also improving
• 40:42
  Speaker 8: those relationships? Do you think that that makes like you
• 40:45
  Speaker 8: were saying, like sit in that perception of awareness. Do
• 40:49
  Speaker 8: you think it also makes there whatever magic is, it
• 40:53
  Speaker 8: makes that more powerful.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: That's a wonderful question. Yes, I really do think, and
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: everything in life becomes more powerful when you're environmentally situated
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: in the way that you were just describing. People sometimes
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: ponder why is California, Southern California, northern California. Why has
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: that been such a place of portent in terms of
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: spirituality in modern American life? And there's all kinds of reasons.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: One could give I venture one or two in a
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: cult America, and they're all legit reasons. If I'm talking
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: to a sociologist, I might say that watch for flows
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: of population. Wherever migratory flows are, that's where all the
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: new religious movements spring up. And that's been true in California,
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: that was true in Upstate New York throughout the nineteenth century,
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: and the burned Over District all true. But it's not enough.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: It's not enough. And I remember my mentor Jacob Needelman,
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: a philosopher, used to ponder this question. He lived in
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: northern California, moved from Philadelphia to northern California, where he
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: was lived out most of his adult life. What was
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: this imponderable in California? And I remember I asked David Lynch,
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: who also moved unhappily from Philadelphia. I happened to like
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: Philadelphia to Cali. And David said he thought it was
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: the light. He said, there's something about the light out
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: here that makes you get up in the morning and
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: do what you feel you intend to do. The temperature
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: is the same outside as it is inside, and there's
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: something about that light that makes you feel possibility. I've
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: always valued that. And the musician Mike Netsmiths who's now dad,
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: he was in the Monkeys and did many other things.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: He said he had moved to California for the weather,
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: and he said, I'm not embarrassed by that, because you'll
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: find that a lot of decisions that you make in
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: life are actually based on the weather. And his answer
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: was of a different tenor, but it was related to
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: what David said. And I think that when you're in
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: that climate and that environment literally literally as you were saying,
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: where you feel that sense of ease and happiness? How
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: different is that from a houseplant thriving in the right setting,
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: in the right sunshine. I feel it all the time.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: I live in New York City, and I am not
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: a fan of harsh weather. If it were up to me,
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: I'd be grooving in the desert somewhere, you know. Put
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: me on the banks of the River Jordan, and I'm
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: in a good mood. I like the desert. Maybe someday
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: I'll live in the desert. But if a person where
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: a person feels that sense of environmental soundness, how is
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: that different from an animal? How is that different from
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: a flower? How is that different from from thriving in
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: that certain environment. And of course people speak of lay
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: lines and energy centers, and I've experienced some of that too,
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: And when you experience it, it can really take you
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: by surprise. I've been shocked to experience that at a
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: certain location in Central America and Guatemala, the Mayan's side
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: of Tikal. There was a particular part of Tiical that
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: I went into and suddenly I am just naturally tripping.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: I've never felt such an up, beautiful, beautiful, energy, and
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: like as life is, as life is both good and bad,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: sometimes you have these experiences and then the aperture closes
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: you you have to mic rate somewhere else, You have
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: to go somewhere else. But that too, as I think
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: you're alluding that too, is relationship, but it's relationship of
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: a different kind and that should really be watched.
• 45:10
  Speaker 5: For That's a great, great question, Jane. I like that.
• 45:18
  Speaker 5: Thank you, Mitch Brandon, Kaiva, did you have anything.
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: Well, it just reminds me like the Buddhist ten factors.
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: Like in Buddhism, there's the ten factors, and like the
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: main factor's consistency from beginning to end. So when you
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: create that base foundation state that you want to maintain,
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: it's like in those relationship dynamics, you have to maintain
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: your power and not give that away. So I can, like,
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: I can agree from that perspective as well, it's like
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: very important to maintain your piece so that no matter
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: what relationship you encounter, it's you recognizing that you have
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: a power to give away. And if you choose to
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: lose your power to this person, this place, this situation,
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: that's a choice just as much it is to keep
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: your power and maintain that can distancy for yourself so
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: that you don't have to go through those ebbs and
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: flows of you know, depression, whatever it is. But it's
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: I think that's hard, right, because some relationships are super
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: potent and we don't know how deep that karma is.
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: So it is interesting that I love that you brought
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: that up, like the power and relationship, because that is
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: actually part of the ten factors.
• 46:18
  Speaker 5: So that's pretty cool.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: That's wonderful. That's wonderful, and I really urge people to
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: think about environment and relationship and where they want to be,
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: even if it's not possible at a given moment. But
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: be sure that it's not possible, be sure, and don't
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: be embarrassed over it. Either. Don't be embarrassed over it.
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: Like for a person who's noise sensitive, for example, take
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: that very seriously and arrange your life in some way
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: that takes account of that noise sensitivity. I've lived in
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: New York all my life, and I'm a noise sensitive person.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: Not a great match, although there's other things I love
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: about New York City. Presently, I live in a neighborhood
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: in Brooklyn that's super quiet. I mean, for New York
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: at least, and it means the world to me. I'm
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: a lot happier. And sometimes we think these things are trivial,
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: but they're really not trivial. If you have a houseplan
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: and you don't water that house plan, or the thing
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: needs sun and you've got it next to the air
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: conditioner in the dark, it's going to suffer. And it's
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: not trivial. And we're the same.
• 47:29
  Speaker 5: Way, Brandon, did you have anything? Are you good? Okay?
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: After writing this book, has your idea of practical magic
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: change at all? Or what is your idea of practical
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: magic anyway?
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Now, Well, the book previous to this one was called
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: practical Magic, and it has all kinds of exercises in it,
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: from taro to sigil work, to working with symbols, to
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: cultivating good luck, to all kinds of different measures and exercises,
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: many of them stripped down because I really believe in simplicity.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: But at the moment, at the moment, although I do
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: still engage in some magical practices, the mood of esoterica
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: and the mood of my own life is that I'm
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: trying to get to what's at the back of those
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: practices and I'm trying to reduce and reduce and reduce
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: in terms of my own spiritual commitments. I practice transcendental
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: meditation twice a day. I'm very interested in prayer and
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: the formation of relationships with deities or personifying energies. I'm
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: interested in new thought methods of visualization affirmation. I will
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: occasionally engage in sigil work or candle magic. I'm interested
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: in divinatory devices like the e chan or taro, which
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: I take very seriously. I'm interested in Western astrology, which
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: I believe works. So I have practices. But at the
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: back of everything, as I was saying earlier, for me,
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: is the identification of that wish. Because I firmly believe
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: that we do have selective capacities within the psyche, and
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: there may be different explanations for that, which I explore
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: in my book Daydream Believer, I explore in some of
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: my articles, you know, explort in practical magic. I believe
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: those selective capacities exist. But back of them is as
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: I was saying earlier, that impassion well defined wish, and
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: it may be that the wish asserts itself regardless of
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: what we do, that it's always there and it's always emanating,
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: and it's always out picturing, not necessarily in ways that
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: match our mind's eye image of arrival, which is also
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: very important, because I think we throw away or overlook
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: extraordinary gifts that may deliver us to exactly what we
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: want or need. But these gifts don't match my mind's
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: eye conception of arrival. They may be unfamiliar, or they
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: may be so familiar that I write them off as oh,
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: that's mundane, or you know, I don't need to bother
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: with that. And sometimes a person who's into let's say,
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: holistic medicine doesn't want to use a traditional method, an
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: allopathic method, and vice versa. But it may be just
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: what's needed. I can't choose exactly what form of nourishment
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: is going to reach me, and I think we throw
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: away miracles. We throw away miracles because we reject the
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: packaging in which something arrives, and the awareness of one's wish,
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: it seems to me, can help us accept and welcome
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: the arrival. And I do believe the arrival will come.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: The arrival will come. It can help us accept and
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: reckon with that arrival, which maybe highly real and legit,
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: it's just not necessarily going to match to order what
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: I see in my head.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with that.
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that analytical logical mind wants it to make sense.
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: And I often find times like when I'm working with clients,
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: like the Four Swords is always like it's not going
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: to look like what you want it to look like,
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: Like you need to be open minded to what it's
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: going to be, because you got to get out of
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: that overthinking mind because we yeah, exactly, we have this
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: ideal version of how it's going to show up, who
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: is going to be, the type of person is going
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: to be, but it's never really the case.
• 52:39
  Speaker 5: So yeah, I would definitely agree with that.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's funny. I mean people have asked me
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: sometimes I tell people to kind of watch for a
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: bridge of incident in their life that delivers them to
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: the thing that they want. I remember, it's crazy, it's
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: a little embarrassing, but it's the truth. When I was
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: a kid man, I guess this was nineteen eighty four.
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: Jesse Jackson died recently, gave this wonderful speech on television
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: at the Democratic National Convention, and they made it into
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: a vinyl album, and I listened to its tones and
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: I was so thrilled, and I was so excited with it.
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't know how old I was, man,
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: I was seventeen something like that. Maybe a little older,
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Anyway, I used to listen to the
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: thing over and over and over, and I would try
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: to learn how to speak publicly from Jesse's style, which
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: was just extraordinary. It's one of the greatest orders of
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: that particular time. And I would look in the mirror
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: and I would kind of mimic his words. That was
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: my exercise. And then I realized, many many, many many
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: years later, that's the same damn thing I'm doing right now.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: I'm just doing it over riverside or zoom or something.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: You know, it's the equivalent. It's the absolute damn equivalent.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: And watch for these things because life will deliver things
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: to you with these peculiar wrinkles that will that will
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: represent extraordinary tendrils, hidden tendrils between maybe what you wanted
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: when you were young and what you got when you're older.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: And there may be a remarkable symmetry there if you
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: watch for it.
• 54:19
  Speaker 7: Yeah, And then to add on to that, just just
• 54:22
  Speaker 7: so it's very clear, is that we don't know who
• 54:25
  Speaker 7: we are, and so we don't know what is best
• 54:29
  Speaker 7: for us in a certain way.
• 54:31
  Speaker 6: And so when we're.
• 54:32
  Speaker 7: Continually thinking about filling in the blank about like what
• 54:35
  Speaker 7: we think we want to say, you want a new house,
• 54:39
  Speaker 7: or you want to have a new friend, or you
• 54:40
  Speaker 7: want a new partner, or whatever it is.
• 54:42
  Speaker 6: And if you think too hard about what it is,
• 54:45
  Speaker 6: exactly what it is, you'll miss maybe that opportunity that
• 54:49
  Speaker 6: was presented to you by the world, and then you
• 54:52
  Speaker 6: won't get that thing that was ce meant to be
• 54:55
  Speaker 6: or you Yeah, right, And.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Everyone has had that experience in relationships. For example, you
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: have a crush on somebody, you're certain that's the one
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: that's it has to be. I'll fucking be alone the
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: rest of my life to be that person. And then
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: it doesn't happen, and you meet somebody else who's wonderful
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: and the person you had the crush on turns out
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: to have been a serial killer. That would have been
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: a problem. It's happened to all of us. That's life.
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: That's life. We get the thing, we get the thing,
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: but we don't get to choose the exact packaging for nature.
• 55:28
  Speaker 7: Yeah, and then the inversion then like the compliment to
• 55:31
  Speaker 7: that is how in practical magic, it's almost like we
• 55:34
  Speaker 7: forget that. It's not like we're looking to evoke or
• 55:38
  Speaker 7: invoke that right, So the partner example, you're not looking
• 55:42
  Speaker 7: to invoke the partner into your life out of thin
• 55:44
  Speaker 7: air like a love potion. I like the idea of
• 55:47
  Speaker 7: like what Lon Milo has said in his work and
• 55:49
  Speaker 7: when he's talked about it, it's like your your ritual
• 55:52
  Speaker 7: and your magic is actually vibrating you to the nature
• 55:55
  Speaker 7: that you become the partner you're looking for and it
• 55:58
  Speaker 7: attracts then you become a magnet to that. And I
• 56:02
  Speaker 7: think that almost gets overlooked so much because we forget
• 56:05
  Speaker 7: that our magic is to make sure that we become
• 56:10
  Speaker 7: the highest version of ourselves highest doesn't like, transcend our
• 56:14
  Speaker 7: lowest aspects of what makes us a bad person, whatever
• 56:19
  Speaker 7: that means, and become more virtuous.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: And the funny thing is when when a person is
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: in a state of passion they want something, job, a partner,
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: whatever it is, neither I nor anybody virtually can be
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: told that may not be the thing, that that may
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: not be the thing. The passion is so persuasive, the
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: emotions are so powerful that the individual can't separate the
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: symbol of what is wanted from the condition that is wanted.
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: And a job or a person or whatever it may be.
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: Very often, whatever it's benefits or presumed benefits, it represents
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: a certain condition. And we very often want to enter
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: a condition which gets defined by the thing or the person.
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: And I'll never criticize anybody for wanting a material object.
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: That person may have a very good reason for wanting
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: that material object, and sometimes a very concrete reason.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: But.
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: Stripped of the craving, it does represent a condition, and
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: it's hard, it's impossible, I would even say, in the
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: throes of desire, to acknowledge that in a meaningful way.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: But yes, it does represent a condition. So I'm trying
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: to work with that because in terms of some of
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: my wishes, one in particular, I know logically that there's
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: a condition thirsted for that the situation is a symbol
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: of a stand in for and the situation may or
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: may not come to pass, but it's the it's the
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: condition that's really desired.
• 58:39
  Speaker 5: Thank you, Mitch. I like that.
• 58:43
  Speaker 4: You had mentioned something earlier, not to kind of like
• 58:46
  Speaker 4: go backwards, but oh you mentioned transcendental meditation. Yeah, was
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: that kind of like your was it that a twin peaks?
• 58:54
  Speaker 5: I got your? I guess your connection with David Lynch?
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: Oh, it was transiental meditation. Yeah. Back in Oh boy,
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: it must have been two thousand and five, David was
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: doing a lot of media and interviews in connection with
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: the new founded David Lynch Foundation, which teaches TM to
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: first responders, veterans, kids groups, and so on, and so
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: I had the opportunity to visit David to interview David,
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: and I expected to be, you know, have the shit
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: scared out of me because you think, like, oh, David Lynch,
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: you know, but he he puts people at ease very quickly,
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: and David is it was such a beautiful, interesting man.
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: We worked together on some other things after that. But
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: he used to say that you just can't get the
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: best out of people through fear. He said, if I
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: brought fear onto a set, I wouldn't get one half
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: of what I get out of people. And that was
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: just something that I always remembered because David was so
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: remarkable as an artist, and his media image, you know,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: at that time at least, featured very few smiling portraits,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: and I was worried about meeting him, but he really
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: he puts you at ease right away, no time to waste,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: but he puts you at ease. And so it was
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: through that encounters through transcendental meditation, which I took up
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: practicing about four years later, that I had countered him.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's awesome.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 7: Nice can I Oh sorry, I just want to make
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 7: one comment to what you said about Fear isn't what
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 7: attracts people to David Lynch in his movies, but it's
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 7: something else that made me think of I of I'm
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 7: a philosopher myself, and so the idea of what kuk
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 7: Guard brought to the table and Sartro and Heiderger, but
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 7: the idea.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: Is that.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 7: Fear is of an object, right, But anxiety and angst
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 7: and despair, these things are created because of how we
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 7: tend to have this level of despair based upon existence itself,
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 7: that there are so many possibilities that it makes us
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 7: have this internal despair of this like abyss of.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 6: Our own lives.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 7: And so I think that's something that like David Lynch
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 7: brings to the table, is that existence is so plethorated
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 7: with the possibility and potential of reality being maybe not
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 7: what it seems or we being able to be larger
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 7: than we could ever imagine. And I think that that's
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 7: something so fascinating in that. And to go back to
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 7: the make a wish? Is that like that? Why I
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 7: like your work so much is that you're bringing the
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 7: practicality of magic back to existence itself. And how do
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 7: we exist in the world when there's so many possibilities
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 7: and potentialities of our own existence to be in the world.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 7: And there's something to that that are as they as
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 7: you know Searcher and Heidiger and Kregard, they stated that
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 7: existence precedes essence, and that means that we exist first
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 7: and everything is potentiality after that, and so not to
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 7: get stuck within that potentiality, but to move through it
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 7: is the plight and the beauty of the magician.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: Mm hmmm hmm. I dig that. I dig that. Yeah,
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: I think that's beautiful.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Jay, I have any other I have one more,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 4: and then I guess we could still wrap it up
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 4: unless everybody has anything.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 8: I'll go after you, Nick, but I do have I
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 8: do have one, but I'll let you go first.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 5: Thank you.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 4: If the reader could take one thing from this book,
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 4: what do you hope it is well.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: The thing I always tell people is if you take
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: one thing from my work, get away from cruel people,
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: and burn your bridges behind you, you cannot function in
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: an environment where all your energies go towards trying to
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: maintain a sense of self respect, trying to rebound from
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: deplorable behavior or subtle insults, or disregard for your wishes,
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: whatever they may be. You will shine, You will rediscover
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: yourself the day you severtize with cruelty. And I'm very
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: adamant in this book about not getting into chin stroking exercises,
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: defining happiness, cruelty, success failure. I think one of the
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: crises of our current spiritual culture is a debasement of
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: plain language. And taking plain language from people is the
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: equivalent of taking their wish, taking their sense of happiness.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: The sensitive twelve year old knows what I'm talking about,
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: as does the sensitive seventy year old. And when you're
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: in an environment of cruelty, debasement, disrespect, wherever it comes from,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: whatever is going down, get out of it, get out
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: of it, quickly, completely, silently, don't confront anybody. Bullies always
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: have the same plausible denial I was only kidding, you're
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: too sensitive rationally. What I really said was, fuck all
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: of that, Fuck all of that. Confront the world and
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: the world will make you it's victim one more time,
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: use your feet and get away. And if you absolutely
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: can't get away, and I mean can't, not just because
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: you're fearful of consequence, but because livelihood or survival or
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: economy holds you there, Vow within, Vow within, privately that
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: you see the terror and the ugliness and the cruelty
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: of this situation. At the first possible instant, you will
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: get away as a physical fact, and it will come
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: sooner than you think. And the reason I say this
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: over and over and over is because nothing, and really
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: this ties into what we were discussing about conditions, relationship, environment.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: Nothing is more depleting of your potential as an individual
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: than being in proximity to cruelty. It will deplete everything
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: in you that can be going towards whatever it is
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: you wish to express in the world. And I go
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: into it in the book and my heart goes out
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: to people who are in these situations, some of them
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: feel cemented in these situations. I speak to that if
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: that's reality, and you're sure of it. There is a way.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: There is a way, And I speak to in the book.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: And the other day someone said to me, what about
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: cruelty and ourselves? And my feeling is, let's measure the
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: curtains for the new you as soon as you get
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: the fuck out of the house of horrors, because nothing
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: is possible when you're in that terrible situation. After that,
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: we can talk about all the ways that I need
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: to straighten myself out, but for now, for now, get
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: out of that environment. And I think that so much
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: of the suffering, the stupid suffering. There's suffering that's positive
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: and that's good, that pays debt. But the stupid suffering
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: that we endure and that kids endure is sometimes and
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: I would even say not infrequently, a product of just
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: being egregiously misplaced. Start there. It's the last place we're
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: taught to look. We're taught to thinking all of this
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: verbal jiu jitsu and cognitive behavioral exercises and light a
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: candle for the person and blah blah blah, fuck that.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: Get away from cruelty, Get away from cruelty, and you
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: will blossom, And then all these other things become possible.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the conscious awareness, right, the awareness is already you
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: changing yourself, right, so it's like buy that awareness simply
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: you are changing your environment already, so it is like, yeah,
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 3: get out of it, right, You're already aware of it,
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 3: so that's great.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 5: I love that, all right, jin go for it, sir. Okay.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 8: So this is a question that I didn't workshop at Mitch,
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 8: but it is something that people have discussed in regards
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 8: to you.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: Is that you have great fit. So if you have.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 8: Any style tips, this doesn't put you on the spot,
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 8: but you are well known for this among the boys
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 8: on Twitter, the esotericy boys, that you have awesome tats
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 8: and you dress grete. So if you have any style
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 8: tips to give us, yeah, I love that.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: Thanks.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: Let's do whatever the hell you like. Ask yourself, just
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: how do you want to how do you want to be?
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: How do you want to be in the world? And
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: fuck the naysayers? Just fuck the naysayers. You know, there
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: was a story told by Peter Chris, the original Drummer
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: and Kiss, and he sent me a letter and I
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: almost died, you know, I was hysterical with joy. Peter
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: made this observation and it was so fucking fascinating, and
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: you can apply this to your own life. He said
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: that when the band was bopping around in the early seventies,
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: they hadn't found their way. They were working on their sound,
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: they were working on their look, and then they realized
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: that they wanted to take this early goth look and
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: make it their own. And they had been into some
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: of the glam rock bands New York Dolls and others,
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: and they wanted to do that they knew on like
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: a big scale. And so they started putting on this
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: makeup and experimenting with the makeup, and Peter made this
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: dimn interesting observation. He said, you know, when we put
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: on this makeup, it wasn't like we were hiding ourselves.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: It was actually bringing us out. It was who we
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: felt ourselves to be. It wasn't the application of a mask.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: It was almost like the dropping of a mask. And
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: he said, when I put on that catman makeup, I
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: felt like that was me me. And he said when
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: Gene Simmons would put on that demon makeup, He said,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: Gene once confided to him that if he could, he
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: would never take that makeup off, that he would just
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: go through life that way. And he said, Gene would,
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: I mean Gene being Gene would scare the shit out
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: of people. You know, when he was in that makeup,
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: the roadies would kind of walk around him a little bit.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: And he said, everybody felt like this is me, and
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: there is an outfit a way that is you, and
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: when you find it, just go with it and fuck
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: the naysayers and ask yourself first. Apropos. What we were
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: discussing about wishes, how do you want to dress? Maybe
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: you can't dress the exact way that you want every day. Okay.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: Maybe you're a funeral director and you can't, you know,
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: show up in a tashiki to work or what have you. Okay,
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: but at least no at least know your preference, know
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: your preference, and experiment and go with it and and
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: go with who you feel you truly want to be.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know I got this notion at one time.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you'll be able to see it,
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: but I wanted this tattoo of Buddy Holly. This is
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: upside down the Great Pyramids, asquatch and flying saucers. So
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: I asked a friend of mine, or I think I
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: just put out a call on the Internet for somebody
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: to design it. Somebody designed it. I was very grateful.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: I used it. I don't know why, and just I
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: wanted it and go with that. You just really go
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: with that. And I think that that again, it's not
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: the wearing but the dropping of a mask. I don't
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: distinguish between and I was kind of alluding to this earlier,
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: the way people make these I would say, false distinctions
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: between black and white magic, where would one be again
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: in the other end and keep the dictionary, you know,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: I got the dictionary definition. I mean in life and personality, essence, attachment,
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: non attachment, identification, non identification, all these things I think
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: can become artifice and can tear the secret too. It's
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: all one thing. Hence, what one chooses to present out
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: in life, that's the bringing of oneself. We hear this
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: banal expression be yourself, be yourself. I didn't even know
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: what that means, but I'm sure that it's in the
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: direction of individual wish and expressiveness. And if you just
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: act in those terms with respect to how you want
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: to present in the world, that's an inner outer act.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: It's all one thing. It's all one thing, and you
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: will be happier and you will be happier for the
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: simple reason that you are abiding what I think is
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: probably the purpose of life, which is self expression.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 5: Thank you Jen, Thank you, Mitch. Anybody have it?
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Mitch appreciate that.
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 5: Sure, Jen, did you have anything to follow up with that? No?
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 8: I agree, I just you know, like it's it's it's
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 8: hard sometimes because like many other magician sorcerers people in
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 8: the quote unquote culture world, I also have tattoos. I
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 8: also wear a lot of black, and so it can
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 8: sometimes be an expectation to perform it. But I've always
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 8: thought that and other people also think that, is that
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 8: Mitch does a good job and sort of breaking the
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 8: you know, he doesn't He's not trying to be twenty again.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 8: He's he looks like himself. He is cool in his
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 8: own way. So I appreciate that. Thank you, Thank you
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 8: the New York City Star. Nice well, thank you all
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 8: for coming on. Mitch, thank you so much for coming on.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 8: I thought it was an amazing talk. Really, I really
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 8: thought that was some great stuff.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 4: And and again, like I was saying at the beginning
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 4: of the show, I highly suggest to go back and
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 4: check out that. What is your wish? Go check out
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 4: that on his on his channel on YouTube. I highly
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 4: suggest the first twelve to fifteen minutes. Yeah, I'll let everybody, Brandon,
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 4: please let everybody know what's up with you where they
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 4: can find your work.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 6: Thank you, Nick, Thank you Nick, Thank you Mitch.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 7: That was a fantastic conversation and I'm so happy to
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 7: finally have been able to chat with you. Yeah, this
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 7: is fantastic, and I would like to formally invite you
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 7: to come have a conversation on Magus and the media
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 7: as well, if you so choose. That would be fantastic.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 7: Love to help push your book out there in your work,
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 7: because the more people read and understand these types of things,
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 7: I think, the better the world gets. And so yeah, yeah, perfect, beautiful.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 7: Everyone out there, obviously you know where to find Brandon Lee.
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 7: Even though I'm not the son of Bruce Lee, I'm
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 7: definitely hopefully damn near close.
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 6: You can come find me.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 7: At Magus in the Media where we break down myth,
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 7: magic and meaning.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 6: And as I said earlier, I just.
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 7: Came out with the great Bob Alan himself with his
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 7: new book.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 6: The Young Alistair Crowley.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 7: And The Magician's Revolt is fantastic, So everyone go check
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 7: out that. When you're done with this, go check out
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 7: everyone else's shows as well. Jin and Threshold Saints in
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 7: the Great Lot in the Gray Lodge, Cardinal electric Head
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 7: has crushing it with the occult rejects. He's out there
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 7: lighting flames to those who need the flame under them
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 7: and making sure that you feel welcome in our in
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 7: the community that He's created.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 6: And so we can have these beautiful conversations.
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 7: And obviously, my love, the Great Kaiva Rose eleven, Kiva
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 7: Rosy three, she's going to tell you in a little
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 7: bit she's the best there is. And that's not because
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 7: that's not because you know she's here with me. Even
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 7: though we're separate, we're here in the same and it
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 7: doesn't matter. But the idea is we're all here to
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 7: help us all in this strange, chaoticness of the world.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 7: If you don't find your foundation to be able to
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 7: raise all the elements above and control them with that
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 7: innerness in the outerness, then somebody else is doing it
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 7: for you, and that is not what we're looking for.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 7: I completely agree burn those bridges as fast as possible
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 7: if you need to, but at the same time, make
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 7: sure you have the ability to look at yourself in
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 7: the mirror and realize the chaos is mostly created within.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 7: So if we can calm this, this should calm up
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 7: as well. Again, thank you Mitch and everyone here. This
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 7: has been fantastic. Go like, subscribe and share to everyone here.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 7: As the world gets crazier, we stand firmer. So thank
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 7: you again.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 4: Thank you very much. Brandon, I appreciate you going on
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 4: for real and my man Jin the Ninja, what was
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 4: going on.
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: I'm great.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 8: Thank you so much. Thank you Mitch, thank you Kaiva,
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 8: thank you Brandon. Of course boss for setting this up
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 8: and inviting me on. If people want to check me out,
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 8: YouTube dot com. Slash at Threshold Saints have episode coming
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 8: out tonight, as well as our Great Lodge series that
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 8: we are continuing and yes we are going to We
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 8: have Appafenny on part three, Michael Hudson book that I'm
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 8: Forgetting the name of Temple of Something, and of course
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 8: the speculative anthropologies and magic of Southeast Asia, and also
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 8: our current series Battlestar Galactica Reimagined the three part We're
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 8: doing three parts on it, so if you're interested in that,
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 8: just check us out and Friday Night and a stick
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 8: mass every every Friday. So thank you guys so much.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 4: Appreciate it, thank you, thank you appreciate it, and I
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 4: appreciate whenever you can make it.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 5: Jim and Kaiva, what is going on? How will you?
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 3: This is fun? Thanks Mitch. I appreciate learning about your
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 3: work and I appreciate this conversation. I had a good time.
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 3: If anybody would like to follow me, you can follow
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 3: on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube. I post daily and weekly
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 3: astrology videos for the aspects happening, and you can also
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 3: get a tarot or astrology reading on my website at
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 3: eleven Kaiba Rose thirty three dot com.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 5: So thank you so much, awesome and thank you.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 4: And finally, Mitch, please let everybody know again the book
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 4: and anything else you'd like them to know.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: Oh sure, well, great to be here. The book is
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: Esoterica Formulas Against the False Self. My man John Newsom
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: a fine artist at the cover and working with John
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: has been one of the great pleasures of my career.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: The author photos by the American master Sante de Razio,
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: and working with people to whom I can look up
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: means everything to me. So that was a vital part
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: of putting out this book, and it's been great to
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: be here with you all. I so appreciate the questions
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: and the explorations and your audience, and you're hosting this
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: space now.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 4: Thank you for coming on again. I thought that was
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 4: a great message. I really liked what you were trying
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 4: to put out there, and I think of the people
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 4: should hear it as well. And thank you everybody who
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 4: made the show and everybody in the chat. You know,
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 4: I appreciate it. That's where we go live, and that
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 4: is the end of another recult Rejects until the next one.
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 5: Everybody be well later.