Latest / Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast / The Caffey Family Massacre

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The Caffey Family Massacre · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: On the night of March first, two thousand and eight,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: two men forced their way into a quiet home in Alba, Texas,
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: and by the time their rampage ended, three members of
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: the Kaffe family, a devoted mother and her two young sons,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: were dead. The only survivors were sixteen year old Aaron
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Caffey and her father, Terry Caffey. This is the terrifying
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: story of the Kaffe family massacre.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: and Grim, a true crime podcasting. The following podcast material
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: intended for a mature audience listener discretion.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Shout out to Michelle. Michelle Freeman, you suggested this case
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: over on Patreon so caught my attention. Here we are,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: we're doing it today.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: I recognize that name you do.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: I do. Michelle has been around for a little while
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: and been quite awesome, especially now that we're getting cases here.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: You're definitely doing your due diligence and helping us out.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: So thank you so much. Okay, we have coffee in hand.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: We hope you have a drink in your hand too,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: because this is going to be an interesting case and
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: I'm curious what your guys' thoughts are going to be
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: on this one because there is an open end kind
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: of at the end of this story. Oh, okay, it's
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: a solved case.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, that was gonna be a question I had.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: It's a solved case. But some people think something else
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: and some people think something else. And someone claimed something
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: and someone claimed something else. It's there's two sides to
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: this coin on which you think it could or could
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: not be.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I'm sure there's many cases that they
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: say is solved, but it is wrong, right.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, potentially, And that's that's what's happening here is the
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: individual who was one of the individuals who was convicted
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: claims they were not really responsible for it.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Well, ding dang. Wasn't there the one recently where the person,
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: Oh I can't even remember, they claimed like it was
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: a documentary that you would watch where they claimed they
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: didn't do it.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Oh, was it the dad or yeah? There was a
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: father was yeah name and.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: He said that he was set up or something.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't remember his name off the top of
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: my head, but yeah he was. He was he was
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: over from Egypt and he immigrated into North America, had
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: a family, had daughters and then yeah, it was like
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: kind of really running their life and stuff, and he
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: ended up killing his his two daughters in the backseat
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: of the car.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and wasn't me.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't me.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: It wasn't me.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: It wasn't me. His name was not Shaggy though. But yeah,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: do you have anything we need to cover today? We've
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: got a lot of snow. I know that's covering us.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, holy shit, is it ever?
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: And hopefully you guys, if you're living in the US,
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: hopefully I had a great Thanksgiving. Hopefully you're going to
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: survive your Black Friday and get all those deals and
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: get the good stuff.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Well we get to like we piggyback on those deals.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: We do.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So, like I've already done a little bit, which
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: there's more I want to do, but I'm like, hold
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: the phone.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Well, the thing is, you need to have some self control,
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: which I am not very good for. So do not
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: say I'm practice what I preach, not do as I say,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: not as I do. How's that before I say anything?
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: You need to have self control and try and just
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: like you know, purchase what you need to get rather
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: than what you want. Of course, throwing once some once
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: once in a while.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: It is a good time though, to do like Christmas
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: shop ready to get like some good deals and for
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: gifts and stuff.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: So definitely it's just really easy to, you know, buy
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: unnecessary things this time of year, which I definitely have
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: a habit of doing. I'm not gonna lie.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: I did buy a Canucks jersey. You did, so that's
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: pretty exciting.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, it wasn't a Black Friday deal, but
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: I bought a mini hockey stick and then to go
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: with it, I had to have a mini hockey goalie stick.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: That was not a Black Friday sale in the last.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: No, but it was an impulse by that I did
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: not need to do.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: And Ben like make sure you don't go overboard in here.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So I'm well, that's what I'm saying. I'm not
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: the best at it myself.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: I don't even know where those are going to go
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: in our home, but figure that out.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: They're gonna go in my hand playing mini hockey with
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: the dogs in the hallway of our tiny home.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, yep.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Anyways, we digress. Let's get into this case, shall we h.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: So this is a story of the Kaffe family masker.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: As I mentioned, at the beginning now the Kaffee family.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: They were well known and beloved reve residents of Alba, Texas.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: And now this is a rural town with a population
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: of just over five hundreds. It's a little tiny town
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: and it's nestled in the woods of East Texas, about
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: forty five minutes northwest of Tyler. The Caffes lived on
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: a serene stretch of land surrounded by tall trees in
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: thick brush. At the heart of their property stood a
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: modest log cabin accessible by a single gravel driveway. Penny
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: Caffe was the mother of the family. She was dedicating
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: herself to homeschooling her three children, Aaron, the oldest, Matthew
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: effectually known as Bubba, and the youngest Tyler. Penny was
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: an active member of the Miracle Faith Baptist Church, where
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: she played piano during Sunday services. Her husband, Terry, worked
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: as a home health aid and served as a lay preacher,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: which is a preacher who's not officially ordained, so it's
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: basically playing that role, but he's not officially ordained as one.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: So the family's oldest child, Aaron, was known for her
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: striking blonde hair, an exceptional singing voice, which often brought
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: church congregations to tears. At sixteen years old, Aaron performed
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: gospel solos on Sundays, captivating the audience with her raw
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: emotion as she sang. In fact, it wasn't uncommon for
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: her to actually pause mid performance that went from singing
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: to collect herself because she's like overcome with like the
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: lyrics and the emotion of the song and everything, so
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: she'd like pause during her performance, collect herself and then
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: keep going, oh wow, like super passionate, very much so.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: And outside of church and schoolwork, Erin worked at a
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: local sonic drive in. She was actually known for like
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: going out in like roller skating, orders up to like
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: cars and stuff which nice didn't happen like all that
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: often and everything, but she was one that did go
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: do it now. Aaron's brothers, Matthew and Tyler, were quiet
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: but polite boys. Matthew was in seventh grade and Tyler
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: was in the fourth. They were inseparable and adored by
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: their parents. Among the three siblings, Erin was the most outgoing,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: though she remained very deeply influenced by her family's faith
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: centered lifestyle. So she's quite outgoing, but you know still
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: that that church girl. You know, faith was, if you
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: haven't guessed by now, the cornerstone of the Caffe household.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: Wednesdays were reserved for Bible study and Sundays were dedicated
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: to church for Terry and Penny. Their shared beliefs had
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: been a foundation for their relationship since meeting at their
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: revival service in Garland, Texas, when Penny was just twenty
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: one and Terry was twenty four. So that faith was
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: really what kind of brought them together and is keeping
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: them together right. But what appeared to be a family
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: bound by faith and love was about to be, unfortunately
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: torn apart in one of the most devastating ways imaginable.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: On the early morning of March first, two thousand and eight,
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: Charles Dickerson, the only police officer on duty in the
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: small town of Alba, Texas, received an urgent call from
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: the Rains County Sheriff's office. It was just after four
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: thirty am when a call came through from a neighbor, Tommy.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: Now Tommy was reporting a shooting and a house fire
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: at the Kaffe residence next door. Tommy reported that a
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: man had been shot multiple times and managed to make
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: his way over to his house for help, and that
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: man was forty one year old Terry Caffey. Oh shit, yeah,
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: he crawled over to the neighbor's place.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The dispatcher confirmed that Terry was conscious and breathing,
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: but bleeding heavily with multiple gunshot wounds. Officer Dickerson immediately
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: responded and was approaching the property when they saw a
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: glowing orange light coming into view, which got brighter as
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: he neared it, which was, of course, the house fully
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: engulfed in flames. He quickly radioed for Volunteer fire department
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: and they were dispatched to the property as well. Officer
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: Dickerson found Terry Caffey lying on the living room floor
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: of Tommy's home when he arrived, and he's gravely injured.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: His clothes were soaked in blood as he had been
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: shot a total of five times, including once in the head,
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: twice near the right shoulder, and two more times in
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: his back.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: And he still managed to make his way to the neighbors. Hey.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: Correct. His clothes were a shirt, pajama pants, and one
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: wet sock Terry had. I mean, of course he soaked.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: The one sock was like soaked in blood. Specifically, so
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: Terry had crawled approximately five hundred yards from his burning
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: home to safety at the neighbor's place, despite his critical injuries. Yosh,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: this is a very rural area. His neighbor isn't just
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: next door, his neighbor is five hundred yards away.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: Well. I was actually wondering that because, like you said,
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: it was such a small town, and was assuming that
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: the houses weren't super close together.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: They definitely weren't. Whoa, So as he crawled this distance
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: from house to house along the way, he had actually
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: fallen into a creek and nearly drowned before he managed
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: to pull himself out of the creek and continue heading
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: to the neighbors as well.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, that is some strength.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: A no shit. So I do want to say this
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: right now, Terry is one hundred percent our badass of
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: the day, not only for that, but for other reasons
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: that we will discuss later. So, Terry was rushed to
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: the hospital and when he was able to, he told
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: police everything he remembered. Now, as I said at the
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: very beginning, Terry did survive. In the intro, I said
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: that Terry did survive this encounter, and in the early
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: hours of March first, two thousand and eight, he and
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: his wife were attacked, and he begins to tell the
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: police exactly what happened. So he and Penny were laying
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: in their bedroom when the sound of gunfire began. The
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: lights were out. You know they are their sound asleep.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: It's four am, right, and Terry recalled the terrifying realization
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: that someone was standing over them shooting at them. When
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: he heard the gunshots beginning, they screamed, and in the
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: disorienting chaos, he heard the distinct sound of a gun
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: being reloaded, and in that moment he thought he was
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: going to die for sure. The noise and the flashes
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: of gunfire engulfed the entire room and was soon also
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: filled with an overpowering, overpowering scent of gunpowder. Windows were shattering,
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: and then there was later an intense heat that began
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: to fill the house as it was set on fire.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: At this point, Terry had been shot from the attackers
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: and was desperately trying to reach his children upstairs. He
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: also had to understand that he needed to get out
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: of a blazing house as well, which he soon knew
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: he had to. He attempted to navigate the thick smoke
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: in the flames, but was forced back into the bedroom.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: When he tried to make his way across the bed,
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: that's when he found his wife, Penny, lying lifeless on
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: the other side.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: Terry had no other choice but to make an escape
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: and save himself, so he made his way out of
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: the house through the bathroom window and over to his neighbors.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: Terry was also able to give authorities a very important
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: piece of information. He knew who one of the attackers was. Okay,
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: it was Charlie Wilkinson. Now this is a This is
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: the boyfriend of his sixteen year old daughter.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, Okay.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: It was Charlie who had shot and killed the family.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: Terry explained that he and Penny had recently confronted Aaron
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: about their relationship with Charlie, and they told her the
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: relationship needs to end, which for reasons we'll get into.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: One of the responding officers, Kurt Fisher, recognized Charlie's name.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, after all, this is a very small town, right.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: So Officer Fisher's sons were friends with him, and he
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: knew this, and he noted that on his way to
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: the crime scene, he'd actually seen Charlie's vehicle outside a
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: trailer belonging to another young individual by the name of
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: Matthew Wade, which was one of Charlie's accomplice accomplices, sorry, acquaintances,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: not accomplices, one of Charlie's acquaintances. So it's a friend
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: and he's parked over there. Officer noted that on the way.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: By, right, Okay, that's yeah, that's observant.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: So he knew right away where Charlie's vehicle was, and
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: he knew Charlie's now involved in this, so they dispatch
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: officers to go over there right away. He acted on
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: that lead, and yeah, they headed over to that trailer.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: Well, clearly Charlie wasn't expecting anyone to or the dad
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: or anyone to survive this or else he would have
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: like masked himself, you'd think, exactly.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: Now, is there anything you've noticed from this story just yet?
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: Well, I do have like a small inclining of something.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Is that a word inclination?
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: I don't know, yeah, that, but I don't know if
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: i'll say it yet. I feel like we've covered stuff
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: like this before, where it's like now I'm kind of
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: wondering if maybe the daughter is potentially like involved with
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: this as well.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: Okay, so that's your question. Have you noticed anything specific
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: about said daughter yet?
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: Noticed anything? Well, she's also survived, as from your intro,
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: and I'm wondering if she's wasn't even in the house
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: maybe well in the attack.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: So far, I've described the father, the mother, and the
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: two brothers, but I have not touched on her.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: Oh you did talk about the two brothers in the.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: Attack, well briefly because the dad, Terry, went upstairs to
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: try and get to him. Oh okay, yeah, but he
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: was unable to and had to backtrack scape the house.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Okay, So like one could assume that he was also
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: trying to go to her room as well.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: I kind of did.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm kind of wondering if she wasn't even
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: there or was or was a part of all this.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: So well, we're about to get into all that because yeah,
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: that is a very glaring thing question that's looming over
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: this case. Was she involved? So we're going to talk
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: about where she was, was she in the house and
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: all that right here? Okay, So police arrived this trailer
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: where Charlie's vehicles parked, armed with search warrants and they
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: made their way into the home. They were dirty clothes,
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: beer cans, and a mess everywhere. It was not the
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: most well kept place. Officers made their way to the bedroom,
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: where they found the owner, Matthew Wade, and his girlfriend
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: sleeping in the bedroom. In another room, they found Charlie
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: laying awake on a mattress, dressed in jeans. Beside him
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: on the floor was a semi automatic handgun, the type
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: of weapon consistent with the attacks the Kaffee house, a
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: twenty two caliber. Police, of course, immediately arrested Charlie, informing
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: him that the kaffe family had been murdered and asking
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: if he had any involvement. Charlie initially denied everything, claiming
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: he had been drinking heavily and he passed out that night. However,
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: when officers searched for his clothing, they discovered a critical
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: piece of evidence. His cowboy boots were splattered in blood.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I would imagine that there would be some
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: blood on his clothes.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, In the living room, they also found a
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: camouflage purse containing Aaron's driver's license. The bedroom where Charlie
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: had been found was even more revealing. Now Initially, blankets
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: blocked out the light in the room, and it was
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: extremely dark and kind of claustrophobic, almost so, when one
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: officer tore down a blanket covering the window, the room
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: lit up and revealed quite the scene. There were shell
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: casings scattered across the carpet, a case of ammunition lay nearby,
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: but most damning of all beneath a pile of blankets
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: on the floor. The officer saw some blonde hair poking
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: out when they pulled back the blankets. Sitting there, curled
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: up in the fetal position with her back against the wall,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: was Aaron Caffey. She appeared confused and disoriented, saying that
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: she didn't know where she was, and she was immediately
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: brought into police custody. Now as we already touched on
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: to the outside world, Aaron Caffey was a sweet and
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: charismatic girl. She had a magnetic charm that drew attention
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: from many people, but particularly from the boys as well.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: She was petite, bubble, and to top it all off,
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: she enjoyed the spotlight. While she thrived on this attention,
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: those close to her often described her as shelter in naive.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: The Kaffe family had always been cautious about their children's
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: exposure to the world. When Aarin was thirteen, for example,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: a significant event changed the family's trajectory. When attending public school,
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Aaron had encountered an encounter with a student who expressed
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: some romantic interest with her and kissed her in the hallway.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: This incident greatly upset the parents, and it prompted them
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: to pull Erin and her brothers from public school entirely,
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: which from there Penny took on the responsibility of homeschooling them,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: utilizing the strict Bible based curriculum. So Erin was quite outgoing,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: quite bubbly, but she was also quite withdrawn and now
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: she finds herself in this situation. So while Erin's parents
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: worked hard to protect her, this sheltered environment also left
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: her inexperienced in navigating relationships in the outside world. When
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: she turned sixteen in July two thousand and seven, she
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: gained a sense of newfound freedom with their driver's license
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: and used the Chevy pickup truck to get to and
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: from her house or events in school, of course work
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: as well. That summer, she met Charlie Wilkinson, an eighteen
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: year old with who was a little rough around the edges.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: You know. Charlie was an outdoorsy country kind of kid.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: He wore wrangler jeans and cowboy boots and head sandy
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: blonde hair, light blue eyes. His online MySpace user name
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: was even Hillbilly.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: Okay, he really embraced the role.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: He definitely did. Charlie exuded a confidence that attracted attention,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: but beneath his comic sterior, unfortunately, was a temper that
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: could be provoked with little efforts. Now, Charlie had recently
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: turned returned from boot camp at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, where
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: he trained with the Texas National Guard, his future plans
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: including joining the active duty after graduation. And at home,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: he lived with his father, stepmother, and three siblings. His
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: father worked at a paper mill outside of Dallas, where
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: his mother, who had moved to Del Rio after their divorce,
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: was largely absent from his life. Visits with her were rare,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: occurring only once or twice a year. Despite the family dynamics, though,
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Charlie had carved out a life filled with activities he loved,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: concluding hunting and fishing. Although he had no record of
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: criminal behavior or serious disciplinary issues, Charlie's quick temper was
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: well known. He was impulsive, but he did generally avoid confrontation.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: You know, he's got a temper, but he's not going
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: to be one to just like start swinging or be
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: physically abusive or anything. Okay, So now Aarin and Charlie
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: the two cross paths at the local Sonic drive in
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: where Aaron worked roller skating orders out to customers, and
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: not long after Halloween of two thousand and seven, Charlie
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: finally asked Aaron to be his girlfriend, which began, of course,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: a whirlwind of romance that quickly consumed both the teenagers.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: By all accounts, Charlie fell hard for Aarin, and the
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: intensity of the relationship was apparent from the start. While
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Aaron's parents initially tolerated their relationship, they soon grew easy
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: about the speed at which things were progressing, which is understandable,
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: you know for teenagers and stuff, especially for someone you know,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: in a little bit of a religious household, having that
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: faith foundation, right, you tend to want to, you know,
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: save yourself for marriage and you know that sort of thing, right,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: and finding you know, your teenage kid is now kind
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: of running them up. I guess not really, but you know,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: she's going out with this kind of rougher around the
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: edge kind of kid.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: It's and I'm assuming like he isn't religious.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he was, Oh he was. Okay, No, we
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: were talking like in the Texas area here, so it's
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: you know, there's there's a lot of well I think
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Texas is technically considered in that Bible belt, if I'm
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: not mistaken, there's a lot of people who are of
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: faith in the area.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: Okay, and he was as.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: Well, though maybe it's a differing amount of faith, who knows.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: But he certainly attended church too, because they had some
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: some church stuff going on and things as well.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: Okay. I thought maybe that was the problem, but okay.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: No, it was more like they just had certain expectations
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: for their daughter and they didn't see Charlie as a
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: good influence towards those expectations, I guess.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, Well, I mean I feel a lot of
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: times with parents like you just would the expectations you
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: may have of your kid or whatever, and the spouse
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: will never meet those, right because you think that your
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: kid is like the most amazing thing in the whole world,
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: which rightfully so, but like no one will meet those.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Exactly, that's for sure. Now the Kafes, they play strict
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: rules on Aaron and her relationship, only allowing them to
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: actually spend time together under supervision and ensuring Charlie left
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: the house by nine pm sharp, which I mean is
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: good to have boundaries and have rules. However, Aarin and
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: Charlie would of course break those rules whenever possible. For example,
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: they would talk in the phone for hours the moment
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Charlie would leave the house at nine pm, like he
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: would he would leave, and then they had immediately call
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: each other and talk on the phone like way laid
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: up into the night, and then Aaron's parents would have
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: to like hang up the fucking phone, go to bad
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: sort of situation.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so cute though it is.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: It's definitely cute. No, I have nothing against their the
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: relationship right now at least. Yeah, it's just it's puppy love,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: you know, that's what it is.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: In December of two thousand and seven, Aaron begged her
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: parents to allow her to return to public school. At
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: this point, her brothers had already re enrolled earlier in
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: that fall, and Aaron argued that she was missing social
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: interactions and normalcy, normalacy of school life. Penny and Terry
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: couldn't really argue that fact. Their daughter was right. She
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: is missing out on, you know, things in public having friends, whatever,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: that that sort of stuff comes along with public school.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: You can't compete with homeschooled life and public school to
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: all degrees. Yeah, maybe curriculum wise you can. Maybe relationship
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: with your children, you can, but at a certain point
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: to realize you're cutting off that social interaction with your
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: child in the world around you. And that's something that
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Penny and Terry couldn't couldn't argue. So they reluctantly, reluctantly
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: agreed and they re enrolled her, seeing it as an
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: opportunity for Penny to devote more time as well to
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: you know, earn the house a little bit more of
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: an income, as if she's not teaching the kids, she
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: can kind of go back to work. Okay, So it's
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: kind of a win win overall if they do that.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: But honestly, too, when kids homeschooling just like blows my
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: mind in a sense, when kids get you know, in
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: like higher grades, I don't even know how you would
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: go aboute teaching them because you may not know that
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: stuff on your yourself. I feel like that'd be so hard.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here and I'm
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: I'm no teacher, but I don't think every teacher knows
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: every single thing that they're teaching. There's there's curriculum for
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: them to follow, right, Like for example, a friend of
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: ours who's who's teaching photography in high school right now,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: brought me up to help teach photography right for the day.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: I was like a guest and talked about photography and
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: business and stuff, and she's like, yeah, I don't know
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: fuck all about photography. You know, helped me out a
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: little bit here, and she's following the curriculum. She's doing
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: a great job, but she doesn't know she's learning it too.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: The teacher can't know everything, just like a parent can't know.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: Well, I do feel like, especially in the higher grades.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: So like a math teacher teaches math, right, so they
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: specialize in that. Yes, so I don't know, but yeah, no,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: I get it.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: You're not about to have your math teacher, though, go
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: out and teach science or physical education usually right, it's
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: usually yeah, that's specialization. Yeah, But now this decision though
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: to actually send Aaron two back to public school, however,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: gave the new young couple significant more time together as well.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: At school, the couple were inseparable. They walked the halls
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: hand in hand, shared lunch together, and occasionally slipped away
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: into Aaron's truck for you know, a couple makeout sessions,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: right ye. By Christmas, their relationship progressed, and one night,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: Charlie presented Arin with his grandmother's engagement ring.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: Holy shit, that was a bad time to take a drink.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: I was not expecting that.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: Now. When he presented her this ring, he didn't present
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: it as an engagement ring, but he did present it
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: as a promise ring.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: Okay, yes, that's still like kind of young though, but yeah.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Definitely definitely now. Aaron's mother, Penny, noticed the ring on
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: her finger, and she demanded that Aaron return it for
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: her father, Terry. This was a turning point. Concerned about
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Charlie's increasing influence over Aaron, he and Penny both imposed
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: even stricter rules on the relationship between the two. Visits
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: between them were both cut back. They could only see
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: each other once a week, and they were closely monitored
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: during these visits as well. Aaron's frustration was growing, and
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: she began confiding in others about her anger over the
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: situation and her parents' control. She even told her aunt
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: at one point that she wanted to leave home with
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Charlie as soon as she turns seventeen.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean, just from an outsider, I'm like, oh,
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: that backfires so often. But that also, like, that's tough.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: It's tough to be in that well, you're at that
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: age where it's a fine line between controlling and parenting.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: Sometimes you have to let your child make the decisions
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: and you have to like let your child make the
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: mistake and fail and learn from it. Other times, you know,
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: you do need to help guide them, and there's times
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: where you're helpless. So it's a very fickle and fine line.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: And I to their credit, I think Aaron's parents are
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: just doing their best. I don't think you're doing anything wrong.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Maybe they're not. They're not succeeding in their parenting, but
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: they're not doing it wrong. They're trying their best, you know.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it makes sense that they are. But also
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: just like when you're controlling too much, I feel like
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know the kids are going to do what
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: they're going to do, right, They're going to make it happen.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Oh, definitely. Well, And like, I don't think her parents
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: are dumb. I think they're aware that they're seeing each
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: other more at school, that they're sneaking off into the
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: truck and stuff. Like, I don't think they're morons. Like
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: most parents know when their child is doing that sort
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: of stuff. The kids think they're getting away with it,
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: and no, the parents are letting you get away with it.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: It's like the kids forget that their parents were also
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: that age at one point exactly.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: So now things continue to escalate with Aaron and her
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: parents and evolved into quite a few serious confrontations. For example,
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: on February two thousand and eight, Penny caught Erin speaking
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: to Charlie on the phone after the curfew. As a result,
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: Aarin was grounded, her parents confiscated her phone and her
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: car keys, and another argument, Erin claimed that Penny actually
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: struck her. There is no evidence against it. It's just
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: Aaron's word. But Aarin was as a result in tears
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: and was seeking comfort from Charlie over.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: The phone, okay, saying her mom hit her.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: Yes, okay. For Charlie though. This situation, this incidant, This
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: her mother striking her. This was proof that Erin's parents
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: were a threat to them and their happiness for Aarin
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: solidified her belief that her parents would of course never
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: allow her to be with Charlie. So you have mounting
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: resentment growing now. These restrictions and escalating arguments reached a
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: boiling point. Anger consumed Erin, and she began to contemplate
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: a way to remove the obstacles that kept her from Charlie.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: And those obstacles were, of course, her parents. She began
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: to obsessively discuss killing her parents with Charlie. Oh shit, yeah,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: Aaron believed this was the only way that they could
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: truly be together. This wasn't just a fleeting thought either.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Aaron mentioned the idea to Charlie repeatedly, both at school
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: and outside of it. In fact, it was later reported
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: that a classmate had even overheard her discussing the plan
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: during a lunch time one day. Oh that is not good,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: no now. Charlie, infatuated with Arin, always seemed desperate to
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: keep her happy. To him, Erin was someone who also
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: needed saving. She's in a tough situation. You know, her
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: parents are overbearing. He's got to protect her. He's got
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: to save her. Right. So, now, after the attack occurred,
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: police were trying to piece together exactly what happened. Aarin
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: was found and was immediately treated as a victim and
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: potentially a kidnapping survivor. They transported her to Hopkins County
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: Memorial Hospital in Sulfur Springs for evaluation. Here, she was
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: questioned by police Chief Shanna Sanders. Aaron presented a soft,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: spoking and hesitant kind of demeanor and was very offering
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: very little information when pressed about the attack. Erin described
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: waking up in a smoke filled room where she saw
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: two men in black wielding samurai swords. They told her
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: to lie on the floor, but she was unable to
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: recall how she ended up in the trailer where she
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: was found. Erin also claimed to have consumed a drink
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: given to her at the trailer, after which her memory
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: became blank. As Erin was being just charge from the hospital,
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: she learned that her father, Terry, had survived the attack,
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: and while she was being escorted to the ICU in
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: East Texas Medical Center to visit her father, Aaron's boyfriend
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: Charlie was now being interrogated, and he quickly became unraveled.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Charlie spilled it all. He admitted to investigators that Aaron
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: had called him the day before the murders, furious with
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: her parents for forbidding her from seeing him, and during
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: this conversation, Aaron expressed her desire for her parents to
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: be killed, stating that she saw no other way that
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: the couple could be together. At first, Charlie framed himself
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: as a reluctant participant, but as the interrogation continued, he
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: revealed that Erin had been speaking openly about wanting her
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: parents dead to both him and others for a whileness
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: for some time.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: Charlie also revealed an accomplice, Charles Wade. We'll call him
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: Wade for not getting confused, because we have Charles and Charlie.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: So it's going to be Charlie and his friend Wade
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: from here and O confusion.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: Where it was like he was at the trailer or whatever,
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: I mean he was found.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Actually, it's a good question. Now I'm gonna go back
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: a double check. Okay, So I had to pause and
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: do a little fact check moment there. The trailer was
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: belonging to the Wade family. I said it was Matthew
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Wade earlier. Matthew Wade is Charles Wade's younger brother. So
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I don't know who owns it,
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: but it belongs to one of the Wade family members. Okay,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: so yes, it was his trailer. I don't know.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: Well he lived there probably, yeah, yeah, he lived there.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: But who actually owned it, I'm uncertain. So Charlie revealed
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: Wade as an accomplice along with his girlfriend Bobby Johnson.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: So Wade's girlfriend Bobby reportedly they all drove to the
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: Caffe residence with their intent to carry out a carefully
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: planned attack. Charlie even offered Wade two thousand dollars as
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: payment for assisting murders, and he planned on getting this
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: two thousand dollars from the safe within the Kaffee house
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: after they committed the crime as well. So he's like,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: we're going to get in there, kill them all, open
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: the safe you can have the money, which is two
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: grand from it.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which for like a younger person is like,
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: holy shit, that's probably like a lot of money.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Right yeah, And this is two thousand and eight as well, right,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: so it carries a little bit more weight to it now.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: According to Charlie, Bobby drove the silver Dodge Neon, which
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: was the vehicle they used, and insisted on coming along,
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: although he claimed she was unaware of the violent nature
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: of the plans that were actually gonna unfold now. The
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: group's first attempt to approach the Kafee home failed when
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: the family dog began barking. Aaron then called Charlie on
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: his phone, reassuring that she would quiet the dog for
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: when they returned, so the group drove back with the
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: dog quiet. This time. They picked up Aaron at the
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: end of the driveway and spent the next hour driving
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: around discussing their plan in detail.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: According to Charlie's later confession, he heatedly tried to persuade
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Erin to consider running away instead, but she.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Refused, that's a way better plan.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Actually there was a point where he even I
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: didn't include this in here, but it's a good time
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: to actually talk about it. At one point he thought like, well,
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: what if we get you pregnant and then you have, like,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: we have a kid together, then your parents will have
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: to let us be together, right, But she was like, yeah, no.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: That's honestly even a better plan.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: And murdering an entire family, yes, it is, it is,
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, but yeah, she didn't want that, She
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: didn't want to run away. Her plan was no, kill them.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Well does she not realize what the fuck is going
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: to happen after that? But okay?
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Now. Eventually the trio returned the Kaffee home and
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: finalized their plan. Charlie and Wade were to carry out
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: the murders while Aaron and Bobby waited in the car.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: So the two men armed with a twenty two caliber
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: pistol and two samurai swords, they entered the home. Charlie
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: headed directly to Terrrian Penny's penn room on the first floor.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: He went in and opened fire on the sleeping couple,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: but halfway through, his pistol jammed after a few shots,
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: and this is when Terry recalls hearing the gun reloading. Yep.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Wade quickly fixed it and fired an additional two more
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: shots to ensure Penny was dead. Charlie slid her throat
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: before moving on, oh Man. Charlie then went upstairs to
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: the young boys Matthew and Tyler, and Matthew bravely attempted
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: to defend himself, kicking at Charlie as he approached, and
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: in response, Wade shot him in the face.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: Gosh, what the fuck did these two young boys do?
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: Nothing that's unreal. Yeah. Wade then turned his attention to
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: Tyler and repeatedly stabbed Tyler until the younger boy, sorry,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: till the young boy no longer moved. The group then
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: focused on covering their tracks. They retrieved a suitcase Aaron
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: had already packed earlier, filled with her belongings, with Aaron
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: saying after they escaped the house, I'm so glad it's over. Next,
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Charlie and Wade located a lock box and mentioned using
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: a combination that was provided by erin Okay. They opened
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: the box, took three hundred and seventy five dollars in
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: cash and some change, and some items, including Terry's wallet
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: and Penny's purse. They took the money, helping that this
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: might obscure the motive the what's the motivation motive? Motive? Yeah, yeah,
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: obscuring the motive behind the assault.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: That it was like a robbery.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So to destroy any evidence, they set fire to
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: the house using a lighter, igniting furniture clothes and bed
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: sheets on their way out. In the hours following the
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: brutal attack, the four murderers drove aimlessly along rural roads,
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: attempting to gather their composure after the violence that they
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: just unleashed. Wade eventually dropped Charlie and Aaron off the trailer,
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: where the couple spent the night together. Law enforcement quickly
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: made significant process in unraveling the case. Aaron's toxology report,
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: for example, came back negative, ruling out the possibility that
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: she had been drugged or coerced in any sort of substances,
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: because remember she claimed to have drunk something and then
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: doesn't remember anything after that.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: Additionally, there were no traces of smoke inhalation in her lungs,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: and she didn't smell like smoke, clothes, nothing, no smoke
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: whatsoever if she was in a smoke filled home when
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: she saw two sword wielding figures. Yeah, so those two
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: both contradictally are drastically contradictory story. Bobby and Wade were
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: both soon arrested as well, and corroborated Charlie's story entirely.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: Wade even told officers about how Aaron exclaimed quote holy crap,
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: that's awesome. As they drove away from the burning home.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. And then when oh, okay, that doesn't
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: make any sense. And then when she's found though, she's
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden this like little innocent thing victim.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's playing victim.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Now, as interrogations unfolded, Aaron was of course arrested and
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: transported to the juvenile detention center, and it was in
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: Greenville where she was being held where she was formally
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: charged with capital murder. Meanwhile, her father, Terry Caffey, was
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: recovering from his wounds five gunshot wounds, be specific, which
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: included a broken nose, fractured cheekbones, and nerve damage. He
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: was informed that his daughter Erin had survived the attack.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: That happiness, though, was soon shattered when he learned that
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: she was arrested for the involvement in the murders.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: I just had to take like a deep breath there,
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: because that poor father, Oh man, I cannot even begin
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: to fathom like his life going forward, you know. Yeah,
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: holy shit.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: We'll talk about that in a bit, Okay. Now, the
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: investigators who arrest Erin were quickly making progress on the
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: evidence against her for example, Aaron's phone records, which became
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: a cornerstone of the prosecution case, soon came in. The
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: phone log revealed between nine or sorry eleven forty six
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: pm and twelve forty eight pm, Aaron called Charlie six
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: times from inside her home and this was the night
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: of the murder. Even more damning, there were seven calls
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: she made between one twenty two am and one fifty
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: eight am, during which she repeatedly asked Charlie where he
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: was and promised to keep the family dog quiet so
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: they could proceed. These records aligned perfectly with Charlie's confession
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: and painted Erin as a driving force behind the crime. However,
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: Aaron claimed she was planning on running away that night,
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: but changed her mind at the last minute. She insisted
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: that her calls to Charlie were meant to prevent him
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: from coming to the house. Whatsoever, both the timeline and
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: her actions seemed to suggest otherwise.
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: Gosh, she's like just evil, Hey, I feel like whoa
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: Erin also told a mental health counselor that Charlie had
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: acted alone, motivated motivated by anger after she ended their
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: life relationship, and she painted herself as a victim of
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: Charlie's violence.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: So when we discuss that, the family was like you
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: need to end the relationship sort of thing, like, yeah,
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: that's what she's saying, is like, we ended it and
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: he's retaliating because I ended it.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Wow, that's shocking.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, in November of two thousand and eight, all
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: four of the defendants pleaded guilty two three counts of
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: capital murder. So yes, Aaron is pleading guilty. During the
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: January sentence hearing, Terry addressed each of them directly. Terry
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: is Erin's dad, right for one. Turning to Charlie, who
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: was in tears at the time, Terry said, quote, I
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: forgive you, not so much for your sake, but for
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: my own. Oh man, I refuse to grow into a
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: bitter old man. If I want to heal and move on,
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: I must find some forgiveness in my heart. That has
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: been the hardest thing I have ever had to do,
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: because you took so much from.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: Me that gave me instant goosebumps.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: Right wow. Bobby, who pleaded guilty to being an accomplice,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: received forty years in jail. However, she is eligible for
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: parole in March of twenty twenty eight, leaving open the
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: possibility for an earlier release. Charlie and Wade both pled
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: guilty to their sentences to life in prison without the
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: possibility of parole. Aaron Caffey, whose role in orchestrating the
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: murders remained a point of contention, which again we'll kind
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: of discuss at the end, pleaded guilty and was sentenced
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: to two concurrent life sentences with an additional twenty five years.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: She will be eligible for parole in twenty thirty eight,
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: when she will be in her late fifties. Her father,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: Terry Caffey, has expressed a hope and prayer that he
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: will live long enough to see her walk out of prison.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: Really quote, I want to go get erin. I want
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: us to walk away arm in arm and never look back.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: Oh man.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: So when I said Terry is the bad as of
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: the day, this is another reason why he instantly forgave
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: his daughter. He visits her in prison, he visits her,
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: he writes her, he visits her.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, holy shit, I'm flabbergasted. Yeah, because I don't know.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: Maybe she's like has some remorse. It doesn't seem like
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: it yet, but maybe she has shown that. But like
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: I also, I feel like Charlie like had remorse, you know, yeah,
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: which it's be easier to forgive someone for that, but
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: oh man, like she killed her own brothers. Basically yeah,
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: so now kay on that.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: Topic, this case has actually been featured on like several
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: different platforms like Doctor Phil interviewed her, It's been on
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: A and E. I Survive Pierce Morgan Killer Women has
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: covered it as well. Doctor Phil interviews her and he
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: actually asked her that question, what about your brothers? Didn't
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: you think about them? And she says, no, I didn't.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: Because she maintains that she did not take part in this.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: She maintains she was planning to run away, tried to
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: stop Charlie from showing up to the house, and he
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: did it on his own free will without her. She
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: maintains all of that. All she says is like, yeah,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: you know, I kind of talked about it, like just like,
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: ah should kill parents, but I never actually meant to really.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: But then the other three their stories is completely the.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: Same, exactly. Not only that anything she claims there's not
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: evidence for it, right, she claims to have been in
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: the house, there's no smoke inhalation, she claims to have
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: been drug. There's no toxicology or sorry, nothing in your
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: system with the report that came up with the toxicology
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: report nothing.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: Huh. Well, I think that she didn't. She didn't step
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: back and think about like the outcome of all this though,
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: and now she's just sticking to this story.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: I guess, right, Yeah, ignorance is bliss, they say, right, yeah,
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: So one of the central debates revolves around her level
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: of involvement in this. So that's why I said, there's
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: kind of like at the beginning, there's two sides to this, right,
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: was she the mastermind behind the whole murder? Did she
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: manipulate the others to carry out this plan? Or was
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: she just naive, emotional and overwhelmed and was swept up
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: in this by Charlie orchestrating it and doing it. Aaron
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: just claims she was planning to run away but and
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: says it wasn't her.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: Huh.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: Now, there is a lot more to her claims than
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: when I covered. I chose not to talk about it
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: because I don't want to give her a bigger voice
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: because most of what she's spewing is bullshit. Even if
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: you watch like the interview, like I watched the interviews
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: with her and doctor Phil. She's a fucking child, and
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: there's it's like she's like fake crying at times, almost
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: like she does not look remorseful. He's at like your
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: fucking parent, your mother died, and she's like answering questions
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: straight flat out out about it.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: I feel like I have watched bits of that or
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: something like parts of this are semi familiar to me.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well it's a fucked up case, that's all
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: I know. Because she's just like, well, can have a
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: relationship with this guy, so parents got to die. And
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: then when she carries it out and convinces him, she
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: fucking abandons him. So that tells how much did she
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: fucking care for him in the first place too? Have
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: her parents killed and abandon him.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: Because she was It kind of shows that she was
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: just using.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: Him, Yeah, but for what? Using him for what?
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: To get rid of her parents? But then she did
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: also like him, so.
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: She wanted to get rid of her parents so she
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: could have him. So she's using him to get rid
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: of her parents now.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: Wants nothing to do like, I don't know, it's very
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: it is very confusing.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. She has she's gained literally nothing. If
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: she was doing it to gain something, you'd think she'd
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: stick to her guns and gain that thing.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: Maybe, like maybe she could be like, you know, I
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: still love Charlie. You know, maybe we can like fix
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: this and me get out. You know, I talk to him,
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: I write to him something, because you're supposed to fucking
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: love this guy. You killed your parents and brothers for him.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well made him, you made him do it, do it.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and now you're pinning it all on him, Like
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: what the fuck, you cold bitch.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: That's on it real nicely.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is putting it real fucking nice, you cold bitch. Yeah. Sorry,
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: oh man.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is it's a lot to just take in
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: because it's just so mind blowing.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: That someone would go to that length and do that.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: And also I just cannot stop thinking about the dad.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: I know, Like what a complete like just living angel
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: I feel right, gosh, he.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: Wants to walk out arm in arm with his daughter
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: when she's released. She's responsible for the death of his wife, yeah,
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: his two younger sons.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: Like she destroyed his whole life.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she fucking had him shot five times, and he's
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: reaching out a hand to help her like, Wow.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: Whoa, Yeah, that is just incredible.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Right, what kind of selfless human being is that? Like? Incredible?
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: How can this bitch come from someone like that?
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: This cold bitch, this cold bitch.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: My coffee's cold and it's still warmer than she is.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: Oh, man, I know I shouldn't be laughing about that.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: It's just how you worded it.
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: It was just like she is a cold bitch.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: Well, and it's hard to understand too. Why the fuck
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: her brothers needed to be involved in this, right, Like
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: she had her beef was with our parents, So why
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: the fuck is she also killing her brothers?
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: It doesn't make sense.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: It doesn't. I if I'm going to assume and play
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: a devil's advocate role here and say what makes the
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: most sense, not that it makes sense, it makes the
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: most sense, is paint the picture of family got slaughtered,
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: she got kidnapped, You never find me, They run away,
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: fucking go live in Mexico and she's a missing person
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: for the rest of her life and lives under a
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: new identity. But I don't think she had it planned
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: out that far. No, I don't think she had it
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: planned out past the next fucking two hours. No, oh,
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: which I do have to say. And this is something
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: that they that she admits. She admits this happens. So
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: her and Charlie after murdering the family and they get
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: dropped off of that trailer. Yeah, they fucked that night.
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: Oh god.
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, her family just got slaughtered and she fucks
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: her boyfriend.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: Okay, that is so disturbing. That's so disturbing.
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: But when doctor Phil asked her about it, she's like, well,
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: I didn't enjoy it. Oh man, like almost like pinning
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: it on him, like he kind of raped her.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: All yeah, yeah, he's pinning more shit on him exactly.
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: She doesn't say he raped her. She says they have sex,
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: but she's like, I didn't enjoy it.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: That just seems like kind of just like a piece
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: of garbage person.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: I know. Huh Okay, So it just.
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: Do on that for a while. So there are people
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: who think that she actually wasn't involved? Is that the thing?
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: There are some Yeah, I mean most people don't. It
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: comes down to, like, fuck, what's that one chick who
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: was We talked about her in that documentary like a
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: year a couple of years ago.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: Kate, do you think Casey? Yes, yes, she believes her.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: No, like, there's people who believe she's fucking in Casey Anthony.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: Okay, I was like, Casey fucking Anthony believes her? Like, no,
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: go fuck yourself.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: What I'm trying to say is, majority of people think
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: Casey Anthony is guilty, right, Yeah, majority of people think
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: Aaron Caffey is guilty. But there are some who think otherwise,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: just like some otherwise on Casey's case.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: Okay, my brain just exploded there minute.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: You know, if Casey Anthony's on your side, you know
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: you've done for kidding.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: But yeah, that's the story of the Kaffe family massacre.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: It's heart wrenching.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you should watch the Doctor Phil interviews with her.
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: It's honestly, in my opinion, she's disgusting.
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: It's disturbing, isn't it. Like do you actually think that
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: we should watch that.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: If you have a morbid curiosity for it? Sure, but
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: I don't think she needs to have the voice at
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: the same time, which is why I didn't dive too
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: much into it. But right, it is also super interesting
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: at the same time, so.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: Huh interesting, I mean, but like, really, what else is
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: she going to do? Like I feel like, if you
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: did something that terrible, it makes sense just to be like,
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: wasn't me for like the rest of your life?
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, really, like every other criminal behind bars.
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So anyways, it takes a big person, I think,
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: to admit when you're wrong, and she clearly is.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: Not no that, she's clearly not that. But thank you
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: guys for being here. We appreciate it. And of course
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: we got the ramble at the end. Check out our
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: links in the description of the podcast. We got Instagram, Facebook, YouTube,
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: all that good stuff. We even have Patreon we can
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: get behind the scenes exclusive content. We have a Patreon
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: episode that's going to be coming out here, I think tomorrow,
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: so you can get that. There's a huge library. I
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: think there's over thirty episodes now on Patreon alone, probably
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: more than yeah, probably more than at this point, probably
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: upwards of forty or even fifty. I'm not sure. There's
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: a bunch, and there's gonna be another one coming out tomorrow.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: So if you want to check that out links in
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: the description. If you don't, that's cool. We appreciate you here. Nonetheless,
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: we sure do.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and a listener are rambling.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're just a little indie podcast. Doing a thing.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: Just. We've been over this.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: We are an indie podcast doing her own thing. It's
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: hard to describe it, like without using the word just.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: Don't use the word just.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: But just isn't negative in my opinion.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Okay, Well, anyway, we are an indie
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: podcast and until next time.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: No, no, we're not done. I'm talking about just for
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: a minute. Okay. When I say just, I don't mean
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: like in a negative connotation. Yeah.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: I know you've explained this before, my love.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: Well I'm doing it again because you put me on
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: the spot. Okay, Like, all I've had for to eat
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: today was was just a wrap. It's just it's only that.
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: It's not bad. It's just that's the only thing.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: I'm like listening to that feels like you're saying you
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: haven't eaten enough.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well I can say I just had a pizza.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: If that's what I had, you know, maybe today I
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: haven't eaten enough. But if I say, oh, I just
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: had a large pizza to myself, it's just the large pizza.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: It's that thing on its own. It's an entity by itself.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Doesn't mean being by yourself is bad. We are just
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: an indie podcast. We are an entity by ourself. No
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: one owns us.
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: It's us in some senses. If you're like, if someone's like, oh,
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: do you want do you want a snack and you're like, no,
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: I just ate a pizza, that doesn't necessarily sound negative.
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: But then when you're like, all I've eaten today is
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: just a wrap, I don't know.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: That's okay? Well, right now, for our podcast, it's just us.
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: That's not bad that it's just us, but it's just us.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: There's no one else, no one else researches or records
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: or or just you. Okay, it's just me. No, you're
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: here too, but yeah, we're it's us.
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: It's us.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: It's us. It's just us.
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: There you go. I'm gonna just leave it at that.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: So until next time, Until next time, thank you for
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: being here. Stay wicked,