Latest / Beyond The Trailhead / GreenBelly Meals CEO & Creator Chris Cage | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 36
Transcript
- speaker-0: Alright everyone, welcome back to Beyond the Trailhead. This week we have an incredible guest, ⁓ one that I was on the Wonderland Trail a few years ago and just came across ⁓ his meals. ⁓ and so it's Chris Cage with ⁓ Green Belly Meals. How are you Chris? speaker-1: Craig, what's up man? Good. Thanks for having me. speaker-0: Awesome. Well, thank you for taking the time to be on. ⁓ I kind of let you know about I ran into you at ⁓ trail days ⁓ a couple weeks back and had been wanting to kind of just talk to you a little bit about ⁓ your meals because they taste incredible. It was a guy that I had met on the trail and we were at a resupply point and he was putting some of his meals in there and he said, Hey, take one of these, they're awesome. So I took one halfway, you know, through the trail. I was like, ⁓ this is incredible because there's some meals out there that are pretty crappy. We all know. and so I was like, hey, this is it tastes good. I think you originally for from Atlanta. So we had I had a little bit of connection, I thought, with that. I know you're you're living somewhere else now, but ⁓ wanted to have you on and just talk about the idea behind it. how you came up with the idea especially and the ups and downs of creating a meal, especially when you're throwing food in some inside somebody. It's not as easy as Maybe a backpack or something like that. So I guess just go ahead and and tell us a little bit more about Greenbelly and then ⁓ the history. speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. Well ⁓ yeah, shout out to that guy on the Wonderland Trail. Where where Atlanta are you? speaker-0: I'm ⁓ out near Lake Lanier. speaker-1: Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah. I went up yeah, I I grew up going there sometimes. ⁓ but yeah, right on. ⁓ nice to ⁓ hear from a fellow Georgian. Yeah. But ⁓ yeah, I I guess wha how far back to go, but the the basic kind of the background is I was an accountant right after college and I did not love ⁓ my job. Actually, I mean it was fine. I liked the people that I was working with. Yada yada, but it just wasn't really somewhere I saw ⁓ saw me being long term. So I made the decision to save up some money and quit and ultimately ended up embarking on a about two year sort of adventure journey. I went and volunteered in Asia for a few months. I did a long bicycle tour in New Zealand for several months and then I came back and through Hector Appalachian Trail, ⁓ you know, for for six months. And after doing all that, my savings was ⁓ almost obliterated. And I was thinking about I had I had a real decision to make. Do I want to go back to being an accountant or do I want to try to do something else? And I think at the time I was like ⁓ mid mid-20s. And I made the decision to you know start this business idea. And I actually had several business ideas I was tinkering with and thinking about. during those travels and even when I came back, the first initial idea was to make a really high calorie kind of gloop, which was going to be peanut butter, honey, all sorts of stuff like that. Just yeah. Anything to pound in some calories. That was really top of mind of ⁓ after threcking the the AT. So I was I started actually coming up with some like gloop recipes in my mom's kitchen. When I finished up all that travel, I was living at home with my parents 'cause my my savings were thin. And I ultimately use that remaining part of my savings to hire what's called a food scientist and chef and help me formulate a a bar that was high calorie, ⁓ tasted good, had a clean label and stable shelf life stuck together, all the, you know, classic bar stuff. And that's actually a fairly tall order, ⁓ to get all that stuff kind of nailed down. So I worked with him for several months ⁓ iterating going back and forth with samples and then ultimately when we had a a bar that I started thinking was, you know, let's say eighty, ninety percent there, I took it to another time I went to Trail Days, which I didn't go when I was through hiking, but I went ⁓ in to Trail Days in I guess that was twenty fifteen maybe and handed out a bunch of these samples of the of the bars where I thought that they were pretty good and got a bunch of feedback from hikers, you know, should we make this more salty? You know, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And ultimately got a you know, bar that was, you know, I felt good about and then ⁓ then it you know, that was ten years ago. So I mean, yeah, then I, you know, really focused a lot on just getting just getting the word out. Yeah. speaker-0: So when so your business, I guess you s when did you f officially start like selling the bar and and everything? What year was that, do you think? speaker-1: Might is he do late twenty fift fourteen or early twenty fifteen? speaker-0: Okay. Okay. And then did you start with just one one meal or was it 'cause I know some people they start with one versus they start with like three or four. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, we started with three flavors and now we have five of the main skew line and another and another s of a of a higher protein line. So now we have six, but we start off with three core flavors. speaker-0: Okay. And so I guess my my the question I always like to ask people too is ⁓ you know, starting and I know it was it's is hard, especially I I I didn't even know you could hire well I I knew you could hire a food scientist, but I didn't even think you could start just there. 'Cause you know a lot of people will just start throwing stuff together like that glute you're talking about. But when you were s starting it out and everything, what was one of the the hurdles that you kinda ran into at the beginning? 'Cause I guess the good thing is you don't have cooked meats and stuff like that in yours. Yours is like a a bar, but it's still got ingredients that you still have to do FDA stuff and everything. So speaker-1: For sure. There were there's a ton of headache, honestly, in the beginning. There was ⁓ well, I I you know, I alluded to some of those things that I was looking for in the bar, but all those kind of things started to come I realized those were problems that I needed to solve as I was tinkering in my mom's kitchen. Yeah. I was like, Mm, I don't know if these this tastes very good. I don't know if I can make this at scale. ⁓ I don't know what the shelf life of this is gonna be. I had all of those those questions and those issues and I think that's that's ⁓ I don't I don't know how long into like tinkering ⁓ you know a few months into tinkering that I realized I felt like I was in over my head yeah to be to be making this product. I also like I'm not a foodie. I'll eat anything. Yeah. And I think i I I felt like if I were to be making and formulating my own thing, I probably ⁓ at least for the taste profile would probably set the bar lower than if I Did and and actually worked with somebody who knew what they were talking about. So thankfully the guy that I started working with had a he had a sh ⁓ he trained as a as a chef in France, so he had like a good idea of what a you know, what a good taste would taste like. But anyway, I honestly just formulating the product to getting the product to where I felt good about it was a big hurdle. And then after that, the hurdles were anything and everything you think of of starting a business. I was ⁓ I was in small town, Georgia. I was living with my parents. I didn't have much ⁓ I had friends that had ⁓ that were in Atlanta, but I didn't have much social life where I was. So I was just grinding at my parents' house, praying for this ⁓ business to get some revenue so I could move out. And I was doing everything on my ⁓ I'm not gonna say everything. My mom was helping me with some. Yeah. But she was helping me, she was helping me make some of the stuff and do the dishes. She was helping me make like bar batches and do some of the dishes, measure the ingredients. She was kind of like my production assistant. But otherwise, I was doing the marketing, customer service. I was, you know, boxing up all the orders, ⁓ walking up to the post office, shipping them. All that stuff was it was good because it was it was good for me to see, you know, the you know, kind of the mechanics of every nook and cranny of the business. And that was really that was really good for me to see, but it was also extremely stressful. And I was also having to learn each one of those new sorts of things and how it worked and you know, all that kind of stuff. So the early the early the early year was probably the yeah, probably the hardest. speaker-0: What at what point in your business did you kind of see it start to take off and you would be able to like say, ⁓ I have to hire this or I have to do now this in a factory or buy these certain machines? 'Cause I know some people will do it everybody does it differently, right? Some people go all in and then some people like take that slow ramp of growth. speaker-1: I don't remember what the revenue threshold was, but there was something called and it might still be in place and it was called cottage food laws. And the the laws are designed to enable small food manufacturer or producers, you know, think about the the you know, the the grandmother who makes cookies and goes and sells it at the farmers market. You know, there are laws that will allow those types of people to go and do that sort of thing. So ⁓ I was aware that we were fine, you know, on like the small scale doing it out of my mom's kitchen. I think it started being an issue when two things started happening. You started shipping e-commerce and shipping across state lines. I think that that might have pushed us into where we needed to go to a proper facility. And then the second thing ⁓ is revenue thresholds. I wanna say it's it's I want to say it's like fifty fifty thousand dollars is okay is is the is the cap that you need to start going to a proper facility. So that was the first thing I outsourced. And it was also the thing that I disliked. The marketing was always something I enjoyed. I was happy to go full throttle on the marketing. And the the it was the cooking I was it was the most stressful and it was it was the and it was my least favorite thing to do. It was like yeah, I'm having to tinker measuring all these ingredients. And I remember so many times I would have plans for the weekend or the following week. And then maybe a larger order would come in and I would just have to scrap my plans and go and make that stuff. So that was the first thing that I really sort of outsourced it. Even outsourcing is a big word. Yeah. ⁓ it was it was a mom and pop ⁓ shop that ended up ⁓ taking ⁓ I I sorry, I forgot I launched a Kickstarter. I launched a Kickstarter in twenty fifteen and the ch and and that raised nineteen thousand dollars, which doesn't sound like much now, but at the time it was it was it was pivotal for me because it allowed me to say, Hey, I'm making all these small batches in my mom's kitchen. Now I'm gonna go to this co-packer with a nineteen thousand dollar essentially a nineteen thousand dollar PO and say, Hey, now we can kinda, you know, get up and running with this with this thing. So ⁓ That was the first thing I did is is get that off my plate and was huge. And it also allowed me to like get out of my parents' house, which yeah was emotionally huge. speaker-0: I I I I can't I couldn't live with my parents for like ten seconds, so I speaker-1: In many ways, I I think there's like a taboo in the US that living with your parents is like Loserville. Yeah. And I kinda wanna push back on that because in if I didn't have that like societal pressure being like I felt like a loser, yeah. There's a there are a lot of great things about it. You get to hang out with your parents and you're sharing meals with them. Like most of the world does that. And I think it's actually really cool. I just felt like a loser. And that that was what was the problem. speaker-0: Yeah, it's the society that's telling you, What's wrong with you? You're still at home with your parents? Bruce. speaker-1: Sure. And I want to hear somebody who lives with their parents, I'm like, Keep it up, man. Yeah. Keep it up. speaker-0: So I guess from from there and saying that you kind of enjoyed the marketing side, I guess kind of flip it just a little bit and talk about the marketing that you guys are doing at Greenbelly. Cause I I see a lot of the videos that you guys have been doing over the last couple of years. And I love the investigative stuff that you're doing. It's kind of like ⁓ Steve with My Life Outdoors, he does that kind of kind of thing too, right? And I love that science-y kind of mythbuster kind of stuff. And so do you find like The marketing is your is your baby or do you guys have do you have a team of people that that help you with that? Or what what's the your your team size to begin with, I guess? speaker-1: The marketing is my baby. ⁓ it's it's changed up a little bit. ⁓ my marketing manager was in charge of it more maybe like two years ago. And for the amount of resources that we were putting into it, whether that's time or money, I I think still relatively speaking, it's still not a a crazy amount of resources, but ⁓ we're still a small team. So relatively speaking, it felt like a disproportionate amount of resources were being allocated to YouTube relative to how much. ROI, I felt like we were getting on YouTube. And I think I I ended up sort of facing a a question where I was saying, Do we want to be going continue doing YouTube? Do we want to stop YouTube or should we do something different? And yeah, the big decision I ended up making was I'm going to be roll up my sleeves and and kind of be the the creator and the face behind YouTube. Yeah. ⁓ and if I was going to do that, I would have to be. much more involved in everything from, you know, the the front end and the back end because I these words are coming out of my mouth. I have to be scripting them. Yeah. I can't these can't be coming from a narrator. These can't be coming from a marketing manager. These have to be coming from me. Yeah. ⁓ so I the channel y started to do I think before it was just kinda like another outlet of content to be putting something out there on the internet. But it it it really started to be a a proper marketing channel with a with a positive ROI when I became the face behind the channel. So I'm heavily involved in it. I mean, ⁓ I we have a video editor that I work with. I have a technical thumbnail designer that I'll hand off some like specific requests. I've got a great ⁓ videographer that you know we'll travel I'll travel with here. He's here in Austin, Texas. ⁓ got an operations manager that helps me maybe with some I you know, just some really kind of like yeah, maybe some outreach or something like that. But in general, I'm I'm I'm the you know, the I'm the guy doing all the YouTube. speaker-0: Do you think that and I I think it's a great thing for especially small brands, medium brands or whatever, is to still have a face behind it and especially the owner, just because I feel like people connect a lot more and want to buy into that product when they connect in an emotional level, not just, you know, hey, this is a cool product, and then they have a promo video that comes out that says, Hey, this is our new bar, but when you have this thing behind it, like Even the videos that you have nothing to do with greenbelly meals, but then you know, you just have a little blurb in there about it. But people go, ⁓ man, I love Chris's stuff that he's creating. I want to eat his meals because he's such a great guy. You know, you kind of get that feeling. And I'm I'm trying to push more of my clients to kind of do a little bit of of that, you know, even with social, just to let them like they need to connect more with their their consumer. speaker-1: I I mean I could talk about that forever. I think ⁓ well just short answer. I I agree. And ⁓ it's funny. I actually did a a video on do you know have you followed the Durston Dan Derson gear and all that? Have you followed his craze? I I was doing a video not not too long ago and interviewed Dan and I've just kind of had this thought about what makes Dan Durston s stand out, why is he exploding? And I was like The big difference is because he's not a logo, it's Dan. And we just relate to a human in a fundamentally different way than we do a company. Yeah. And there's so many other examples of that. I kind of touched on that in that video, but I I'm a huge music guy and it's been funny. I think there's been a a large shift away from bands to individuals. And I think there are a lot of reasons for that. But yeah, ⁓ the economics has changed. But I think one of them also is just how people connect with individuals versus ⁓ groups. But yeah. ⁓ anyway, I think when I was doing that Dan Derson video, I was also having a an epiphany as well that I was starting to experience some of that myself. That I've been, whether intentionally or coincidentally, incorporating my face more into what people associate with when they think of green belly. And ⁓ there are pros and cons to that. I think overall the pros outweigh the cons. I think the cons are really just the cringe factor. I don't I don't know about your clients, but I feel like it was a it's it was a big decision for me and still it's something I struggle with putting my face out there because I'll see friends around town and be like, ⁓ I saw your video and I think there's for me at least a big fear of this is just with anything, but there's a always a fear of failing. Yeah. And if you fail, failing sucks. If you work if you're working hard on something And fail, that really sucks. If you do both those things and everybody sees it, that makes it even suck more. So I think that a lot of people, myself included, have a lot of apprehension about putting your face out there. But yeah, I think ultimately it's it just makes sense. I think the quality of content increases when you're putting your face out there because your your face is on it. You want it to be good. People connect with it more. It's just so much more authentic. You're like, ⁓ this is e you know, you might say, like, ⁓ does this person have a personality or not? But even like ⁓ you know, a quiet, introverted guy is going to be there's just it's a human, you're connecting with that so much more. So I would argue that there's really the personality might not matter much unless you're just a you know a total jerk. Yeah. But I don't think I don't think many people are jerks actually. I think a lot of people, especially in the outdoor space, most of the people are just pretty pretty good folks. So anyway, it's yeah, I think it's been really, really important and something I'm going to probably be leaning into more. speaker-0: Yeah. I feel like some people you you have this preconceived notion of, ⁓ if I put my face out there, people are gonna think maybe I'm full of myself and I've you know, it's all about me, but you're just you really just wanna connect. I ⁓ heard someone say this a long time ago, which was I c I can't say it exactly right, but ⁓ where like when you finally get over yourself and stop being self-conscious yourself about yourself. is when you'll succeed in the social media space and everything because sometimes you get online, like even when I started this podcast, I was like, ⁓ my gosh, like, you know, I self conscious about this part of my face, or, you know, even talking or, you know, what are people gonna think about my backdrop and and everything else. I'm like, who cares? You know, like you're gonna have haters. My wife does her social media thing and she has ⁓ you know over a hundred thousand followers on on that and the comedy stuff that she does. I mean she deletes a lot of stuff. speaker-1: What's her what's her channel? I wanna look it up. speaker-0: Called ⁓ it's called Asian Mom White Dad. So it's like ⁓ Asian mom white dad. Yeah. Family stereotype. So we do collabs with all kinds of brands and stuff like that now because she's grown it to what it is. And she's gotten over herself, and so she would put me on camera and I would be like, ⁓ stop putting me on stories and I let me suck my suck my gut in, or something like that. And I was like, you know. And now you're like, speaker-1: A hundred percent. Yeah. speaker-0: Who cares? you no matter what you're gonna have haters. But I think for a company, that's perfect. You just you gotta even if you're a a boring old rock, just people seeing you doing whatever, they're gonna be like, ⁓ I can connect with them on some level and I wanna buy that product. So speaker-1: You know, I think it's easy I whatever you just said about being self conscious about how you're appearing, how you're presenting your thoughts, all of you becomes under scrutiny when you put your face out there. And especially if there's a record button, somebody can go back and watch it multiple times and you're like, dude, I'm doing this live. Like I don't I I I'm not be able to think through, but I think in many ways most people, not everybody, have an understanding and appreciate that human element. And I think if anything that imperfection might go a long way. ⁓ and we're seeing that in politics. I'm not gonna mention any politicians, but I think we we're just seeing this shift in politicians as well that we want somebody who is human that isn't giving us a canned yeah you know, a canned response. So ⁓ but I mean it's easier said from the viewer perspective than the creator's perspective 'cause I know I I still just I'm like yeah, like you said, sucking in your gut. There'll be some day I have like huge bags under my eyes and I'm like, dude, I don't want to look like that. Yeah. speaker-0: I wonder I wonder just from a you know, 'cause it's easier for a small company sometimes to do that because it's a it's a small group of people versus say the CEO of Mattel getting on and like doing funny videos or normal videos or doing something. You know, I never remember when the McDonald's CEO took that tiny bite of the ⁓ the McDonald's burger and then it kind of blew up online. So then the I think the Burger King guy was like, Okay, I'm gonna show you how to take a real bite of a burger and everything. And I was like But that was great marketing for everybody. And it's like th I think they need to be out there more than they think they they need to. speaker-1: I think ⁓ the small brands are gonna be taking the plunge, or they I mean they already have been taking the plunge, but and then I think inevitably there's gonna be some integration. I don't know what that'll look like, but I think that some some some bigger brands will start taking the jump. But I don't know, that that is interesting to think about because I it's thinking about the CEOs, those are very high paid people that are extremely busy. They come typically from Ivy League backgrounds and just the idea that they're spending most of their time crafting their ⁓ You know, their YouTube presence ⁓ or whatever, their social media presence is an interesting dynamic. Yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ cool. Well, okay. So I guess just shifting gears a little bit then, kind of going into a moment you realize that maybe whether the social media thing or even just your company, when did you kind of realize, ⁓ boom, like this is working? Was it like a big order or big sale or what what what is it that just was like, wow, this is really working now? speaker-1: I don't know if I had a single moment. I think it it was honestly a linear progression, especially in those early years. I'd say my there were maybe a few milestones. The milestone number one was getting out of my parents' house. Yeah. You know, I had enough revenue to go ⁓ I was living overseas actually in very cheap apartments, but that was milestone number one, is saying that I have enough revenue to be going and getting out of my parents' house. I think milestone two was somewhere around 2017 ish. A couple things happened in 2017. ⁓ one was a getting a Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan ⁓ probably increased Greenbelly's size, I'm guessing 50% or something like that. ⁓ we were a small company, right? We still are, but so I mean, it's hard to quantify that. But that was that was a boost. And the other thing is I was really doing a lot of written SEO content at the time, and we started getting hundreds of thousands of visitors a month. From SEO. So 2017 felt like another big milestone where I was like, I I think I figured I figured out like a a a a profitable marketing channel, which was creating SEO content and being able to drive a lot of traffic to the website. And then if if this is considered a third milestone, this isn't quite really answering exactly what you're asking about, like when I felt like we made it, but it is another milestone, I would say, is in really just in the past. year or so of doing YouTube is is kind of opening up what I would say would be a second marketing channel, you know. ⁓ but I don't know if any of those were like the ⁓ you know, the moment where I like, ⁓ okay, this is it though. Yeah. speaker-0: No, I think a a lot of people don't necessarily have like a boom, it just took off kind of a moment. But I think the slow growth always helps a company just grow healthier than massive growth. I mean, there are those one offs and and stuff like that, but ⁓ but yeah. So I guess how has your relationship changed with the outdoors as your business has grown? Cause I know some people, you know, you your business grows and now you just don't have time to hit the trail like you used to or or have trips. I think maybe the YouTube content you're creating is actually helping you maybe connect back with the outdoors. speaker-1: A hundred percent. I think ⁓ I don't know if it's actually that I've been working more that has taken me away from the outdoors. I actually think strangely it's my location. Yeah. I I was living overseas for a long time and I did I got outdoors a decent amount e wherever I was living, 'cause I was typically living in fairly outdoorsy places. ⁓ you know, whether that was ⁓ Central America, Southeast Asia. ⁓ Europe, there I was always kinda near something pretty outdoors. And even in the States, I remember I lived in Chattanooga, Tennessee for a while. There are ten of mountains there. ⁓ spent a little time in ⁓ the Rockies, Canadian Rockies. So even even if I was working a lot, I felt like I was always pretty close to the outdoors. I moved to Texas about five years ago. In Texas there have been so many things about Austin specifically that I love. Yeah. but they're also like the the outdoors here are just not that great. ⁓ the public lands are limited. ⁓ the terrain diversity is limited. ⁓ I still think they're pretty outdoors here, but if I'm being honest, I just don't feel as thrilled to go on a weekend backpacking trip near Austin, Texas, just 'cause I just don't think it's that cool I just don't think it's that cool. Yeah. So I think it's it's less work, more and me being in Austin, Texas, I think that is pulled away from that. But you're right on the YouTube thing is in many ways ⁓ the YouTube has been a blessing in that because Whenever we ha if I ever want to go do like a ⁓ if I'm ever investing a lot of time into a cool video, it's typically gonna be shout outdoors. And and we've gone to several locations across the country to be filming and you know, we're planning more stuff to be filming across the country. So ⁓ I think in a way the work is gonna be getting me back outside more. speaker-0: That's cool. And I think it's great that you have a team that you can do it too. Cause I know from from my side of it, whenever I'm shooting photos, because sometimes I'm shooting like models and stuff like that. But usually I'm shooting myself or my my wife or a good friend of mine will go on a hike and I'll have a brand that I can kind of shoot, depending on what their needs are. But I don't get to enjoy the outdoors as much when I'm filming myself versus maybe you have your your friend who films you, you get to kind of like be the talent a little bit more. speaker-1: What you're describing sounds similar to me. I mean, I'm working and usually usually when if we're flying somewhere, we're on the clock. Like we're trying to get stuff. But I mean to be ⁓ you're still like outside in a cool setting. You're in a cool location, you know, like I there is a lot of appreciation going on, but I think I would what you said I would I would fall into that as well. Like we're out there, we're we're on the clock. Yeah. speaker-0: It's there's nothing worse than you're outside and you're like, you wanna enjoy the sunset, but then you're like, I can't enjoy the sunset because this is prime shooting time for me. And so I'm I'm bothering my wife my always like, ⁓ look at the beautiful sunset. We're in the Grand Canyon, like, I know, go stand over there, go do this, go do this. Yeah, we gotta get the well, this is when we gotta make the money right here. So I'm a morning and a night person. I can't sleep ever. That's my problem, I think. speaker-1: It's golden hour, baby. Are you a morning guy? Okay. ⁓ I was gonna say I wish I was a morning person so I could get up and film then, but we end up oftentimes filming in the middle of the day in horrendous light just 'cause I'm such a baby with getting up in the morning. I'm like my my buddy Joshua's like, Hey, we gonna get up and after tomorrow? I'm like No. Yeah. We're gonna film this at midday. speaker-0: What it's funny when I reach out to brands, this is totally just a tangent, I guess, but like when I reach out to brands saying, Hey, I'm gonna be on this trip and I'm gonna I have the ability to shoot X, Y, and Z for you. You know, I'm I have a no other like, let's say I'm shooting a food brand and then I have I have a room to do like a tent or a sleeping bag or something like that because they're not competing brands and stuff. And then I when I first started doing this, I would get the pushback of, I'm not paying for your trip. And I'm like, But you're not paying for my trip. Like, I'm gonna create amazing stuff for you and I'm gonna charge you for it just as much as you would pay and I I was like, why am I getting that pushback on I'm gonna pay for your your trip? speaker-1: That's really weird that you said it because to me that's actually a fairly common industry standard. I've known a a lot of especially in the video world, a lot of creators that do all sorts of shoots and that's the package. I mean, like, you know, it's ⁓ so anyway, I'm actually surprised you got pushback on that 'cause that seems to me to be a pretty not even not even industry standard as far as the outdoors. That's like a creator standard. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. But yeah. speaker-0: I th one of the people that I got pushback from, I ended up ⁓ working for them quite a bit afterwards. It was just explaining to them like, you're not paying for a trip for me. I was like, this is not a trip, this is work. Yes, I'm gonna be going outside and it's gonna look like on social media I'm enjoying myself, but I'm gonna be dead tired because I'm gonna be up shooting time lapses at night and then waking up early morning to get the sunrise. I'll sleep in the middle of the day, but then I gotta hike to the next location. So now I've got a Yeah, a that's my that's my tangent on on speaker-1: No, I'm actually I'm surprised to hear that. I feel like that's ⁓ yeah, it's like I said, very standard. speaker-0: ⁓ I guess kind of shifting gears then how ⁓ or I guess what's something that you've changed your mind about since launching your company? In terms of like maybe the outdoor space or, you know, if you could have started it differently, would if you've started it a different way? speaker-1: I'll say a few ideas come to mind. I don't know if this answers it quite like you're asking. ⁓ we already we talked a a little bit about the putting my face out there more, but that's for sure one. I wish I would have done that sooner and I wish I'd have gone harder on that. But ⁓ some other things that I might have wish I'd done. I I don't know if I wish I would have done this, but ⁓ because I we've been very e commerce direct to consumer focused. And through website sales, but I've always been intrigued, I should say, by retail. The outdoor food space is dominated by retail. Yeah. And I feel like sometimes I'm working in a space that it just isn't made for me. You know, I and I think that that's something that I would be curious if I were to restart Greenbelly again, is to not go so hard on direct to consumer and see about going a little bit more wholesale, a little bit more retail, because of all the D to C things you're seeing disrupted or have been disrupted over the past decade, well, a lot of people still buy their food in stores. And ⁓ I mean, unless you're doing subscription stuff, which I just don't think our current meals are always the best for subscription. So I don't think that w it it's just not I I sometimes wonder if that D to C business model has been the best business model for us instead of pus prioritizing or pursuing retail more. But I don't know, that's a regret. I think it's just something that's been on the back of my mind that that would have been a completely different path than the one I've than the one I've been on. speaker-0: I think that's good to say for people who are listening who are trying to create a food business and stuff like that too. Like ⁓ personally for me, outside of a few things that I buy online, I'll wait till I get to my destination for me to kind of fill up on meals. You know, you I'll go to Trader Joe's once I get into town, you know, and and get my stuff. There are certain things like certain certain meals and you know, your bars that I I'll grab online, ⁓ and and stuff like that. But ⁓ for the most part, yeah, I I kind of stock up as soon as I get to the trail before I get to the trailhead. speaker-1: I think most people do. And I think that that behavior is something that's in, you know, direct contrast to, you know, the the business model that I've pursued. Yeah. speaker-0: What do you think is a a way to jump over that hurdle, maybe for speaker-1: for the future. I think I mean really what I've been trying to do is that I'm I'm going broad awareness on YouTube right now. ⁓ I also have been tinkering ⁓ you know I made a video about this last year as well is tinkering in flavor profile. Are we going to be going more low sugar, higher protein in general, appealing to a broader market, but still making sure that the nutrition would be great speaker-0: ideas. speaker-1: For people really pushing things outdoors. ⁓ but that tort that sort of product could lend itself more, I think, to being more D to C. Yeah. I've also thought about playing with the form. You know, we have a two bars and one pouch now. And in many ways, I think that's been an X factor for us and a differentiator for us, but it's also been operationally a huge headache. Yeah. Is they they basically have to manually pack. two bars into a pouch, which adds a lot of ⁓ long story short, a lot of headache. Yeah. So, you know, when you talk about going D to C, ⁓ there would ⁓ be be some other things that would have to probably change in in the positioning and you know, who we're targeting and things like that. Yeah. speaker-0: 'Cause could you do like have you ever thought about doing like this you know, the single bars and the smaller packaging, that kind of thing? speaker-1: For sure. ⁓ again, I it feels it feels risky. ⁓ on one hand I I think if anything if we if we do go that route it would be to help, you know, smooth out some operations. But ⁓ I think that that I actually was just running a survey with our customers asking how would you feel about single b versus double bar packaging. And it wasn't that clear, to be honest. It was it was kind of all over the place about what people were wanting and I don't know how much of that is we should listen to our customers versus we should be looking into the future and seeing what actually makes sense. Yeah. ⁓ I don't I don't have an answer for right now. Yeah, yeah. speaker-0: No, because I'm just thinking like, you know, I for anybody listening who've never tried a green belly meal, they're awesome. They're like Rice Krispie Squares. They they taste so good. They're like really, really good. And, you know, I well, I'll run to Kroger to get some snacks for my my kids before their sports and I'll go to the snack bar aisle and I'll get them like a don't know, kind bar or something like that. And I'm like, ⁓ I could totally just grab a single greenbelly and give it to them versus the the full package. But speaker-1: Well you so if just curious from your perspective, yeah. How would you feel? And ⁓ if I were to say this is an or, not an and, meaning an or, so if we were to go double bar p current double bar package or single bar package, which one which one would you if you if you would would you care at all or and would and or which would you prefer? speaker-0: Me personally, I I think I I usually go I only eat one at a time. I usually just go single bar. That way I would just throw it in my hip back hip ⁓ hip back pocket and just be able to just grab it as a grab and go as opposed to like maybe having to grab the bag. You know, it's again it's a like a it's like a first world problem, right? Like speaker-1: No, I I genuinely want to hear that though 'cause ⁓ I hear both things. Up some people say, I only need one bar, but thankfully have the zipper puff seal, I'll just zip the other bar back up and I'll put it in my bag. But anyway. Yeah. speaker-0: Okay, cool. So I going now to I guess we're talking about customers a little bit and their ideas and your ideas, but can you tell me a moment when a customer story or review hit really hard, like in a good way, you know, or a bad way? Like 'cause I know it's great that you have these meal. I'm sure you've heard all these cool stories of someone eating your meal on, you know, I don't know, Everest versus like, you know, somewhere. But any kind of testimony video like wow, that really is why I'm doing what I'm doing. speaker-1: Yeah, I'll say I remember I remember my first like bad one and then I remember probably me maybe I I've gotten emotional on a couple of reviews and there are a couple that come to mind and strangely they all they all fall into the same category. But the the bad one was I remember when I launched that Kickstarter. I was I launched a Kickstarter and then after that I was trying to figure out how to make all these products because I was also wondering if it's if the Kickstarter goes really small, you know, with a couple thousand, I'll just make them on my mom's kitchen. If it goes huge I'll figure out a manufacturer if it goes medium, which is frankly what it felt like. If it went medium, I gotta find like a copacker to help make these. And I remember in that process of finding the copacker, I was like, hey, Kickstarter supporters, this is gonna be another it's gonna be a month delayed. And I remember somebody just wrote me this message and just had venom in them. And they were like, Another stupid startup that you know, like how you think you can make this and like You know, how you don't know what you're doing. And I remember I I was I was in my mom's house and I was like, I was just working so much and I cared and I was like it really affected me. And I remember that and I was like, ⁓ man, like I really screwed up here. Like I should have known better. And I think in in what I've actually I I actually now if I would have gotten that, I think I would have much thicker skin. 'Cause people say shit all the time on YouTube, like, ⁓ like, hey, you look whatever, you this guy looks like an idiot or whatever. Now I'm like, Okay, I worry, whatever. I don't I don't have that thick skin, but I remember that first bad one. And then I'll say the the the good the good emotional ones. I think they're there probably like three that I've gotten that have all fallen under old people in nursing homes. Yeah. And there's something with old people that just gets me emotional. And they were talking about, you know, ⁓ you know, my grandmother's old old and passing and was living off of these and she really enjoyed them. And those types of emails and messages. would really get through to me and those would be emotional. And I was like, ⁓ wow, this is this is ⁓ one interesting. I didn't know that, you know, ⁓ nursing homes were, you know, would or some of these people would be liking this, but ⁓ yeah, those are the emotional ones. But then yeah, I mean there are also just plenty of cool people doing really cool stuff that will say that they've used green belly that ⁓ that's those are just fun. You know he's hearing somebody does something cool and then, you know, they were eating green belly while they were doing it. speaker-0: Like hanging off hanging off L Cap and they're just eating a green belly. speaker-1: Yeah, Greenbelt's definitely been on L Cap, which is cool. That's awesome. I just watched the Dark Wizard. Have seen that? ⁓ speaker-0: ⁓ dude, I love that. I told my wife I we have to watch that again because that was incredible. speaker-1: Dude, I almost I was watching I almost didn't know if I was gonna watch the second episode because the first one I felt like it was fairly dark. Yeah surprise and depressing. But I thought it got better as the second and third and fourth episode. But I I loved it. I thought it was fantastic. speaker-0: Yeah. I only watched it because I didn't even I didn't even hear about it until I saw like a a clip from Alex Honnold where like a Instagram reel or something where it's saying like he's they're cast him as the villain, you know? And making hit like all the clips 'cause even like afterwards he was in an interview I saw him say like I said all kinds of other good stuff but they just kinda cast me as the villain and I like, ⁓ that's fine with me you know like he I can't read the guy, you know. speaker-1: You're right. I I there was there was real tension from the viewer's perspective between those two climbers. Yeah. speaker-0: That was that was an incre and it's one of those documentaries where you are you know what's gonna happen to to the guy, but for some reason I'm like hoping he doesn't die. And I'm like, I know he's dead, but I don't know why I'm thinking that, you know. speaker-1: I knew he was dead too. And strangely, I kept thinking to myself, Maybe I didn't know that. Maybe he is still alive. Like 'cause I was also like, I'm I I climb actually a decent amount, but I've never been like a climbing ⁓ like a huge climbing fan. I don't like follow all this, you know, the the big guys and stuff. So I was like, Maybe I didn't misheard that. So you're I was kinda buying into that too. Like, maybe he's still alive. speaker-0: I actually after I watched that I talked to another person somewhere. It was like a I was talking to them on the phone and an older gentleman and he was like, ⁓ I used to climb all these mountains and I I ran into him a bunch of times on the mountain. I was like, ⁓ my gosh, I had no idea you even knew him. Like, I feel like I'm talking to someone famous, you know? Well so. ⁓ all right, so I'm gonna wind down just a little bit and then ⁓ from there I'll just kind of ask you a couple of like ⁓ I call them a little quick questions to kind of get to know you a bit more. ⁓ but I guess in that vein of just what we're talking about, what's the weirdest, most unexpected place that your product has ever shown up? speaker-1: Dang. I don't know if I have a good answer. ⁓ ⁓ okay, I'll say I don't know if this is weird, but it was surprising. I remember seeing I think it was an episode of Meat Eater. Uh-huh. Do you know the Stephen Ronella guy? Yeah. There was I don't know if somebody told us about it or if I was watching it. I don't think I would have been watching it 'cause I'm not a big hunter, but there was a this this like guy making a food bag and there's just green belly sliding across the Netflix. I like, ⁓ that's cool. Green belly's on Netflix. That's probably the weirdest one seeing Greenbelly Netflix. Are these are these rapid fire questions? Am I doing this too slow? speaker-0: Not yet, not yet. I got one more question and then we'll go into the rapid fire. ⁓ I guess if for someone who's at the beginning of the trailhead of their business, is there one piece of advice? This is the last question related to business, but is there one piece of advice that you give to someone who's at the beginning of the trailhead of their their business? speaker-1: This is this is really corny and cliche. Go for it. But I would say think about your monetization slash marketing channel before you stress too much about building up the business, so to speak. I think a lot of people have a tendency to be building this product that they don't know if anybody's actually gonna buy. They start thinking about their operations manufacturer, all their licenses, all this kind of stuff. And like at the end of the day, ⁓ I most businesses fail, I think, because they haven't done a good job identifying a good profitable marketing channel. Yeah. So I think I would be ov way over index on that as opposed to trying to build out all these other things you think you should build out when because I don't know, you're supposed to or something. Yeah. speaker-0: No, that's good. That's really good advice. I always love those snippets of advice from people 'cause I just want to make a book of like everybody have on the pod of their little Yeah, note to self. ⁓ all right, so I'm gonna go into the rapid fire round, but before I do, how can people find Green Belly ⁓ online? speaker-1: Like there's significant. Greenbelly dot com or the handle's at Greenbelly right now for YouTube. ⁓ I'm calling it Chris Cage now. I might update the handle to my name as well soon, but you know, we're on YouTube as Chris Cage right now. speaker-0: Okay. Perfect. All right. Without further ado, we'll get to the rapid fire round. ⁓ all right, so first question I'd love to ask is your favorite national park? speaker-1: ⁓ fun one. ⁓ wait, this is rapid fire, sorry. speaker-0: No, you're good. It's not that fast. It's ⁓ speaker-1: Flow trigger. Dang. There are a lot of good ones, Craig. All right. speaker-0: Yeah, pick one. speaker-1: is corny. I'm just gonna say Shenandoah just 'cause I saw so many bears there. speaker-0: Okay. Awesome. That's the first time I've any heard anybody say Shenandoah. So ⁓ all right, tent, hammock, or cowboy camping? speaker-1: Hundred. speaker-0: Tent. ⁓ It's that fa I I feel like it's that when I hear people say tent, they usually say it's 'cause they just love that fake feeling of security inside. speaker-1: So had more for protection. I don't the ha I sleep poorly in the hammock and cowboy camping. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna sleep outside if I go cowboy camping. Yeah. speaker-0: All right, mountains, forests, desert or coast? speaker-1: Mountains. speaker-0: Mountains. solo hike or crew mission? speaker-1: When I was younger, solo, now crew. Yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ worst trail snack you've ever tried. speaker-1: Bam. speaker-0: Really? Spam? speaker-1: I think it's just gross. Okay. speaker-0: I just had spam I just had spam before I got on with you. Dude. My wife made this like rice wrapped with spam with a rice paper roll Asian y kind of flabby thing. speaker-1: I think in some ways it was not as bad as I was expecting, but I think just the presentation, knowing that it's like meat in a blender, just the concept grosses me. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. All right. What's the ⁓ best trail snack? And you can't say your own meals. What's the best trail snack you've ever had aside from your own? speaker-1: ⁓ I've I've said this before. I've said both these before, but I'll say it again. Pork rinds and and seaweed. I I speaker-0: Figured you were gonna say pork rinds and I just recently heard you say somewhere seaweed. Are you talking about like the like the Asian packets of like dried seaweed? speaker-1: Yeah, like a salty I mean they have ⁓ a lot at a lot of grocery stores. You can get ⁓ in different packages, but yeah. I think I would say most of the time I go backpacking, I bring seaweed and I I I kind of have this thing about getting greens every day. And I think when I go out on the trail, I just ⁓ just wanted some greens. speaker-0: Yeah. We eat that all the time at our house. We have a our pantry is full of seaweed and we speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. Yeah, so you spam it you have spam and seaweed. Yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ all right, ⁓ a couple more. If you could collab with any brand, who would it be and why? speaker-1: ⁓ you know, I started working on a bear canister years ago. Yeah. And I met with Grant ⁓ coincidentally a couple times, Grant from Bear Vault at Trail Days. And I was like, hey, you know, we're I've been working on a a bear cannon ⁓ that collapses. And he was like, ⁓ like I could tell he was like he didn't say anything, but I could tell he's like scrambling. And then he I saw him again and and he was like, Hey, we have we launched one, the collab spool. So I'm not saying by any means he s like stole that from me. I think like they were working on it as well. Yeah. But I think I I I kinda wish I would have like talked to him about maybe collabing on that. That would have been a fun product to launch because I've been working on it and ⁓ you know, that would that would've just made sense for a lot of reasons. But so apparent speaker-0: They can do maybe they can come up with a green belly version that's translucent green instead of blue. speaker-1: I know. I say, Grant, if you're listening, let's go. speaker-0: All right, and last question, the biggest splurge you've ever made for your business. speaker-1: Splurge implies luxury, right? Or like because I'm thinking of split you I guess I think splurge like what's the biggest waste of like the waste of money I've ever done. Yeah. Either all right. Waste of money. I bought a machine to make bars in China and I visited the fac I visited a ton of machine factories and I ended up never even shipping it to the US and I couldn't get my money back. I paid fifty percent deposit for it. Yeah. And lost it. ⁓ speaker-0: Crap. Dang. Yeah. speaker-1: This was happening all around COVID and like I couldn't even go back to China. There's so much political tension going on with the US and China. I also just didn't know if it even actually made sense to be bringing this machine into a space. I didn't know if I wanted to take on the manufacturing ownership on my own. So I felt like I got super hot and bothered about this machine and ultimately it just fell through. It it wasn't a ton of money, but I mean it was it was a the largest just thrown away money purchase I've ever made. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. Time and money too, right? speaker-1: Yeah. Exa yeah, time and money. But I mean, I think in many ways it was kind of a blessing in disguise or I do not want that huge machine here. Yeah. speaker-0: That's cool. Well that's crazy. Well, Chris, thank you so much for being on the pod and and everybody, thank you so much for listening. And I'm sure I'll see you at another event somewhere, Chris. And really ⁓ learned a ton today about Green Belly and ⁓ can't wait to see the other videos you guys ⁓ have coming out in the near future. speaker-1: Dude, I I wanna check out Asian Mom White Dad. Yeah. speaker-0: Do it. The subscribe subscribe to that channel. You'll you'll probably live. Yes. Awesome man. Thank you so much. Talk to you later. speaker-1: All right, Craig, thanks. ⁓