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Is It Really China Trying To Control Africa? | Jerm Warfare · UK Column Radio

0:30
Speaker 1: My name is jerm This this Germ warfare, the battle of ideas.
0:34
Speaker 1: All right, So this week marked the thirty second anniversary
0:41
Speaker 1: of the Rwandan quote unquote gene side, and of course
0:45
Speaker 1: the mainstream narrative was being pushed again how Kagami brought
0:54
Speaker 1: peace and civility to the country of Rwanda. And yet
0:58
Speaker 1: anybody who's done ten minutes of research will will know
1:01
Speaker 1: that the event itself was a Western fact who it
1:04
Speaker 1: was to remove the government and actually put in Kagami,
1:08
Speaker 1: who's a Western part But now, why telling you this
1:12
Speaker 1: is because I constantly hear how China is trying to
1:18
Speaker 1: colonize the African continent. And at the same time this
1:21
Speaker 1: is bizarre blind spot where people cannot see the amount
1:26
Speaker 1: of Western influence right across the African at least Sub
1:30
Speaker 1: Saharan Africa. Here in South Africa, for example, if anybody
1:36
Speaker 1: knows our mining is pretty much the heart of our economy,
1:42
Speaker 1: I don't think there is a single South African company
1:44
Speaker 1: that owns a mine. It's all Anglo American just about
1:47
Speaker 1: It's not even South African interests. I don't really have
1:51
Speaker 1: a question. I'm just kind of throwing that out there.
1:55
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the mayor mention of Paul Kagami's name,
2:01
Speaker 2: but also exactly like you say, I mean, I think
2:04
Speaker 2: I think Rwanda specifically, or at least the events of
2:07
Speaker 2: ninety four and the way they've been cast, both at
2:10
Speaker 2: the time and ever since it is I mean, as
2:14
Speaker 2: you say, it's a terrific example of what you describe.
2:16
Speaker 2: I think it's a terrific example of the way in
2:19
Speaker 2: which a lot of subjects get dealt with, which is
2:22
Speaker 2: incomplete isolation, and there was no I mean, how many
2:27
Speaker 2: people came away from the news in nineteen ninety four
2:32
Speaker 2: and thereafter having any idea of what had happened before
2:36
Speaker 2: and of the involvement of the colonial powers they as
2:41
Speaker 2: they are referred to, you know, in that region for
2:45
Speaker 2: decades and decades beforehand. So that is a critical part
2:51
Speaker 2: of it, and the and everything that's happened thereafter. But yes,
2:56
Speaker 2: I mean the in fact, there are of course similarities
3:01
Speaker 2: with the way in which the Holocaust is described, in
3:06
Speaker 2: that it's it's a narrative that may not be challenged,
3:10
Speaker 2: and in fact, the way for those people who may
3:15
Speaker 2: not have been to Rwanda, the way that it's dealt
3:19
Speaker 2: with there is absolutely fascinating because I must say I
3:23
Speaker 2: had that date had had slipped past me, but I was,
3:28
Speaker 2: I was in Kagali, I suppose exactly on this day
3:33
Speaker 2: in two thousand and nine, it must have been. And
3:39
Speaker 2: it was totally fascinating because the way they do it
3:41
Speaker 2: that particular year, they had banners up all over the
3:44
Speaker 2: place and they were commemorating not just a tragedy or
3:52
Speaker 2: you know, a sort of an event or whatever. It
3:55
Speaker 2: was very specific. The banners actually said the genocide against
4:00
Speaker 2: the Tutsi people.
4:02
Speaker 3: You know. It was that it was. It was that.
4:06
Speaker 2: There was that much of an angle, as it were,
4:08
Speaker 2: there was there was no suggestion that there was violence
4:13
Speaker 2: on both sides, you know, or that the waters are
4:18
Speaker 2: very muddy indeed as to exactly what had happened, who
4:22
Speaker 2: was involved and why. But but the point was that
4:28
Speaker 2: that the Kagami regime's grip ever since was absolutely not
4:33
Speaker 2: to be challenged. And for those not familiar with the background,
4:36
Speaker 2: but the two larger groups of people in in Rwanda
4:41
Speaker 2: are described as being Tutsi and Hutu, and opinion is
4:46
Speaker 2: slightly divided as to what exactly that means, as to
4:49
Speaker 2: whether it's a socioeconomic grouping or a sort of tribal
4:53
Speaker 2: ethnic one, and there are there are sort of elements
4:56
Speaker 2: of truth to both in that you can you can
5:00
Speaker 2: and identify people who are most likely to be Tutsy
5:04
Speaker 2: by their physical appearance, and the same by Hutu. Tutsi
5:06
Speaker 2: tend to be tall, slim people with very sort of
5:10
Speaker 2: long boned arms and legs, whereas who to tend to
5:15
Speaker 2: be sort of squatter and stockia. So there are there
5:18
Speaker 2: are sort of physical differences on the ethnic side of it.
5:22
Speaker 2: But actually to the well, again, this is all part
5:26
Speaker 2: of it, the sort of the reversal of fortunes and whatnot.
5:29
Speaker 2: But as I say, the point of it in exactly
5:31
Speaker 2: the same way that the Holocaust narrative may not be challenged,
5:34
Speaker 2: because we can only ever be allowed to believe that
5:37
Speaker 2: it was that it was a terrible terrible event for
5:41
Speaker 2: Jewish people, the Ruan and so called ruand and genocide
5:46
Speaker 2: was only a terrible terrible event for the Tutsi people.
5:49
Speaker 2: And lem Beehold Polka Gami and those that surround him
5:53
Speaker 2: and have surrounded him before and after are are described
5:57
Speaker 2: as Tutsi. So it is fascinating that respect. Sorry anyway,
6:00
Speaker 2: I don't want to sort of hog the hog the conversation.
6:08
Speaker 4: I was just going to say, I think, you know,
6:11
Speaker 4: we look at geopolitical events over the years, and almost
6:16
Speaker 4: that kind of thing isn't seen as being geopolitical because
6:19
Speaker 4: it's it's presented by a mainstream press that that is
6:25
Speaker 4: describing things as being, you know, a conflict between two
6:29
Speaker 4: tribes in a country, same kind of way that what's
6:34
Speaker 4: going on in Sudan is described, and there's never any
6:38
Speaker 4: contextualization of it in terms of who's influencing her, and
6:43
Speaker 4: who's funding whom, and who who's arming him. And you know,
6:49
Speaker 4: so we see regime change operations like Iraq or what's
6:53
Speaker 4: going on in Iran at the moment, or Syria, because
6:56
Speaker 4: this is in factoria actually is a bit, a bit
7:00
Speaker 4: somewhere in between, because although there was clear regime changed,
7:05
Speaker 4: narratives from the West and efforts to get bombing campaigns going,
7:11
Speaker 4: that the Western bombing campaigns never actually got going.
7:14
Speaker 5: So that was that was also presented as a civil war.
7:18
Speaker 4: These things are never civil wars. They're they're always external
7:21
Speaker 4: influenced and and this is this is something that we
7:26
Speaker 4: absolutely have to get to grips with you know this
7:30
Speaker 4: interest in with the European Union, with the United Kingdom
7:35
Speaker 4: in the so called Hell countries, although that you know,
7:40
Speaker 4: that term, the way they use it tends to encompass
7:45
Speaker 4: a large larger area than what maybe have been, you.
7:49
Speaker 5: Know, geographically described originally as as a Hell.
7:51
Speaker 4: Nonetheless, you know that is viewed as being the EU's
7:54
Speaker 4: other neighborhood, and certainly somewhere that Britain has had in
7:58
Speaker 4: it will all the colonial parts have had an interest
8:01
Speaker 4: to some degree or other, and they still absolutely do
8:05
Speaker 4: because they have never relinquished any notion in their own
8:09
Speaker 4: minds that what lives under the feet of those people
8:12
Speaker 4: belongs to the City of London and other financial interests
8:16
Speaker 4: across Europe and the United States.
8:20
Speaker 1: I want to read you something so here. In South Africa,
8:24
Speaker 1: Anglo American, founded in nineteen seventeen with direct political and
8:28
Speaker 1: financial backing from both the British and US governments, spent
8:31
Speaker 1: the twentieth century consolidating control over the richest goldfields in
8:36
Speaker 1: the country, then swallowed up Cecil Roads as Diamond Empire
8:40
Speaker 1: to Biers. On top of that, by nineteen seventy, Anglo
8:43
Speaker 1: American owned South Africa's five biggest mining houses and held
8:47
Speaker 1: major shares in five of the top ten manufacturing companies
8:49
Speaker 1: now listened to this. By the time apartheid fell in
8:52
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four, the company controlled more than half of
8:56
Speaker 1: all private industry in South Africa.
9:01
Speaker 5: I mean that is colonialism because.
9:07
Speaker 4: Well, precisely, well yes, precisely, but but you know, the
9:10
Speaker 4: first point to by here, I think is that, you know,
9:12
Speaker 4: people think of colonialism as as you know, the state
9:18
Speaker 4: the UK going into a country, taking over that country
9:21
Speaker 4: and running it as an extension of the United Kingdom.
9:24
Speaker 4: But there's always been this this corporate aspect to it.
9:30
Speaker 4: And although the you know, the British Empire is supposed
9:32
Speaker 4: to have ended at the end of the Second World War,
9:35
Speaker 4: the corporate part of this never did, and so finite
9:39
Speaker 4: the corporate financial whatever you however you want to describe it.
9:42
Speaker 4: And of course that's what the empire was really about
9:45
Speaker 4: from the beginning. Any empire is really about from the beginning.
9:48
Speaker 4: So so you know, the fact that that large you know,
9:56
Speaker 4: Africa is never for the Africans. It's somewhere where Africans live,
10:00
Speaker 4: but that's not that's not how it is perceived by
10:04
Speaker 4: by the financial corporate interests in the West.
10:09
Speaker 1: I know it's just a movie.
10:10
Speaker 3: Sorry to see the movie. Yeah, I know.
10:14
Speaker 1: It's just a movie. But Blood Diamond has it has
10:18
Speaker 1: elements of truth to it. And what it what it
10:20
Speaker 1: kind of shows is there is a huge amount of
10:25
Speaker 1: violence that does occur from the economic colonialism. I mean,
10:28
Speaker 1: if you look at how the diamonds, you the the
10:33
Speaker 1: they use locals but but but they're foreign back, if
10:38
Speaker 1: that makes sense, and it causes huge amounts of of
10:41
Speaker 1: of mafia and gangsterism internally, and then people from the
10:44
Speaker 1: outside look at it as though it's just internal conflict
10:48
Speaker 1: like what happened in Wonder and it's completely not.
10:51
Speaker 4: Yes, because you've got to keep people fighting each other,
10:53
Speaker 4: and then they're not fighting the colonial interests.
10:58
Speaker 5: So you know, this is this is the human condition.
11:01
Speaker 4: We fight amongst ourselves while the oligarch's profit.
11:06
Speaker 5: It works in every country in the world. Africa is
11:09
Speaker 5: no different.
11:11
Speaker 1: Charles.
11:11
Speaker 2: You're going to say, well, I was only going to say,
11:13
Speaker 2: I mean, just just to crank out that the extension
11:17
Speaker 2: of the anecdote, right, Well, first of all, and I
11:20
Speaker 2: think this is interesting and I'm happy to discuss it.
11:23
Speaker 2: The reason I was in Kagali in April two thousand
11:27
Speaker 2: and nine, was because I was taking at what's described
11:30
Speaker 2: as a short term training team to the Rwanda School
11:32
Speaker 2: of Infantry at Kabiro, which is in the western side
11:36
Speaker 2: of the country, absolutely beautiful countryside, and to run a
11:39
Speaker 2: program for their infanteers. And again, this is all sort
11:43
Speaker 2: of part of it. You know, a lot of people say, oh,
11:45
Speaker 2: it's kind of neo colonialism and whatnot, But the thing is,
11:49
Speaker 2: it is all part of the same system, although technically
11:52
Speaker 2: so called defense diplomacy, but there's no doubt that obviously
11:56
Speaker 2: money changes hands, and this is very much a con
12:00
Speaker 2: it underway in which relations are fostered and this, that
12:05
Speaker 2: and the other. And it's very interesting just on that
12:07
Speaker 2: score to see the competitive element because I had on
12:11
Speaker 2: my team, I had a couple of Americans and that
12:15
Speaker 2: was purely in order that the American ambassador was able
12:20
Speaker 2: to muscle in to the ceremony, the sort of finale
12:24
Speaker 2: of the training thing. And you think, you know, Craigie,
12:28
Speaker 2: why is this getting so much attention? I mean, it's
12:29
Speaker 2: literally a bunch of what did I think I had
12:32
Speaker 2: six or eight British? Well, sorry, I think it was
12:38
Speaker 2: six British Infantry training personnel and two Americans and we
12:44
Speaker 2: ran a training program over I think it was three weeks,
12:49
Speaker 2: I can't remember, with the sort of range packages and whatnot.
12:51
Speaker 3: It was really good.
12:52
Speaker 2: But did that really merit visits from the American ambassador
12:57
Speaker 2: to come and watch the sort of final monty to
13:01
Speaker 2: come all that way. I mean, you know, it's questionable.
13:04
Speaker 2: Really it wasn't. It wasn't actually that much of a
13:05
Speaker 2: big deal. And yet if I got his name correctly,
13:09
Speaker 2: I think he was James Caberondi was then the head
13:12
Speaker 2: of the army, and you know he was there with
13:15
Speaker 2: a number of other very obviously Tutsi generals. So the
13:18
Speaker 2: whole thing was completely fascinating. But sorry, just go about
13:22
Speaker 2: the day we arrived in Kagarali and seeing those banners
13:24
Speaker 2: about the genocide against the Tutsy people. Tony Blair was
13:28
Speaker 2: in Kagali that very day. I absolutely remember that that
13:31
Speaker 2: was that was the case, and so you know, we
13:34
Speaker 2: talk about the exactly like you've both just been describing.
13:38
Speaker 2: Tony Blair of course being at that point, well at
13:44
Speaker 2: that point he had feathered his own nest because of
13:47
Speaker 2: what he'd set up prior to leaving office with his
13:53
Speaker 2: sort of supposed commitment to Africa, which having initially been
13:56
Speaker 2: a political entity, he then commercialized, which is based exactly
13:59
Speaker 2: the same thing moment he left. And then of course
14:03
Speaker 2: he has been busy putting I think I'm right and
14:05
Speaker 2: saying he was the He was quite a key player
14:08
Speaker 2: in allowing Oracle to become involved in parts of Africa,
14:14
Speaker 2: and Rwanda was exactly one of those places. So it
14:18
Speaker 2: is amazing to be able to trace back to that
14:19
Speaker 2: particular day and just to wonder what was going on,
14:24
Speaker 2: what was being said behind closed doors on that day
14:28
Speaker 2: back in two thousand and nine. But yes, again the
14:33
Speaker 2: other thing, just to talk a bit more about the
14:38
Speaker 2: course I ran and the environment it was. It was
14:41
Speaker 2: a fascinating insight into a society that one gets the
14:45
Speaker 2: feeling has in large part been held together by this
14:49
Speaker 2: idea of there being a narrative of sort of tension
14:56
Speaker 2: and hidden trauma. And there is the sense I had
15:06
Speaker 2: the sense then that whilst the people were extremely friendly
15:10
Speaker 2: and very very sort of kind, courteous and orderly, that
15:15
Speaker 2: there was beneath the surface the sense that one wasn't
15:19
Speaker 2: being given the full picture. It's it's sort of It's
15:23
Speaker 2: hard to describe. But you see, that's why I go
15:25
Speaker 2: back to the to the history. What happened in nineteen
15:27
Speaker 2: ninety four had happened in some form or other more
15:32
Speaker 2: or less every twenty years for the preceding seventy or
15:36
Speaker 2: eighty years. And the sad thing something that's never talked about.
15:40
Speaker 1: So, but the sad thing is that nob be really
15:43
Speaker 1: cis when you talk about Africa, people's eyes glaze over
15:47
Speaker 1: and they don't really know anything. I love on the continent,
15:50
Speaker 1: and so it matters to me. But media, mainstream media
15:55
Speaker 1: that is Western dominated, just simply doesn't care. And everything
15:59
Speaker 1: and MICUs this out in the past. Everything is always
16:02
Speaker 1: framed from a perspective of the West. So in other words,
16:09
Speaker 1: what happened in Rwanda, oh the people are now liberated,
16:13
Speaker 1: that they're now free, or what happens in Angola or
16:17
Speaker 1: the Congo or whatever, it's always from the perspective of
16:21
Speaker 1: or even in Iran, are we going to go and
16:23
Speaker 1: liberate the people from this od press of regime? But
16:26
Speaker 1: it's never from the other perspective.
16:29
Speaker 3: Yes, very good. Yeah, Mike, you're about to say something.
16:35
Speaker 5: No, it wasn't.
16:36
Speaker 3: We're not, are you sure, okay.
16:39
Speaker 2: Because I was I was musing on exactly this on
16:45
Speaker 2: Wednesday Now, on Wednesday's program, Wednesday's news program. This week,
16:49
Speaker 2: it was the beginning of the sort of is there
16:51
Speaker 2: or isn't there going to be a Trump Iran cease fire?
16:55
Speaker 3: Blah blah blah.
16:56
Speaker 2: Anyway, that that was sort of that was marginalized to
16:59
Speaker 2: an extent in context of our news program and particularly
17:02
Speaker 2: Extra because Vanessa is in Lebanon and there was yeah, yeah,
17:07
Speaker 2: and that was actually going on during the news program
17:10
Speaker 2: and during Extra. Now that was that formed really quite
17:14
Speaker 2: a dramatic backdrop to our conversation, which was, in Mike's words,
17:19
Speaker 2: rather subdued, I think necessarily. So I think it was
17:22
Speaker 2: a good I think Extra was a very good conversation,
17:24
Speaker 2: but it was quite a difficult one to have. It
17:25
Speaker 2: is quite odd to be looking at somebody on a
17:28
Speaker 2: screen and thinking, you know, it is just conceivable that anyway,
17:33
Speaker 2: but we don't necessarily go down that route. But what
17:36
Speaker 2: it does make me think you are totally right. And
17:40
Speaker 2: this is something I've I've thought for absolute years, and
17:43
Speaker 2: in particular during my time in the armed forces. You know,
17:47
Speaker 2: why is it acceptable that the entire world seems to
17:51
Speaker 2: think that it's okay if stuff explodes in Middle Eastern
17:54
Speaker 2: countries the entire time. It's just it's taken as red there.
18:00
Speaker 2: Things can explode, and moreover, things can explode when they've
18:04
Speaker 2: been dropped out of British or American aircraft or fired
18:08
Speaker 2: from indirect you know, whatever. The thing is, the fact is,
18:12
Speaker 2: and I'm afraid this is a pretty bald statement, but
18:15
Speaker 2: it is absolutely true. We can kill them and they
18:17
Speaker 2: can kill each other because they're a different color and
18:19
Speaker 2: they don't matter.
18:20
Speaker 3: That is absolutely how it is. That's how it's looked at.
18:23
Speaker 2: Because if it isn't looked at like that, then please
18:25
Speaker 2: tell me how it is that supposedly, in dealing with
18:29
Speaker 2: character insurgency or peacekeeping or any of the terms that
18:32
Speaker 2: get applied in the Middle East, why is it that
18:36
Speaker 2: five hundred pound bombs were not being dropped on lone
18:38
Speaker 2: gunmen in Northern Ireland. The two things are always described
18:44
Speaker 2: as being the same, you know. Oh well, obviously, with
18:47
Speaker 2: the character insurgency techniques and the way in which we
18:51
Speaker 2: dealt with it in Northern Ireland, we were so well
18:54
Speaker 2: prepared to be able to deal with a similar thing
18:57
Speaker 2: in Basra or wherever, except that we weren't and it
19:02
Speaker 2: didn't turn out like that, and it was totally different.
19:04
Speaker 2: And the value placed on human life is completely different,
19:08
Speaker 2: whether that's conscious or unconscious. And I can tell you
19:11
Speaker 2: for a fact that the way that the armed forces
19:14
Speaker 2: perceive it, and this is unfortunately this sort of has
19:17
Speaker 2: to be framed like this because otherwise I don't think
19:19
Speaker 2: you'd necessarily get people to actually go through with it.
19:21
Speaker 2: But in the pre pre deployment training you are absolutely
19:28
Speaker 2: led into a state of mind whereby you're not necessarily
19:33
Speaker 2: considering those that would do you harm as human beings.
19:37
Speaker 2: I don't mean there's a proper process of dehumanization or
19:41
Speaker 2: de demonization, but there's no doubt that there is an
19:44
Speaker 2: other ring that they are not to be regarded in
19:47
Speaker 2: the same way that you would never consider people on
19:51
Speaker 2: the streets in Belgium. Let's say, so that's part of it.
19:54
Speaker 2: And then I think with Africa the difference is exactly
19:57
Speaker 2: as you say. You know, well, if an African village
20:00
Speaker 2: just has to pack up sticks and go and move
20:02
Speaker 2: because Anglo American wants to go and dig a big
20:04
Speaker 2: hole in the ground, wow, that's fine. That's Africa it
20:06
Speaker 2: doesn't matter. But it's not going to happen in Derbyshire.
20:08
Speaker 2: Although that's it's a bad example because that that did
20:10
Speaker 2: happen some years go.
20:12
Speaker 3: But but but but.
20:14
Speaker 2: You know, times change. But I think that's where that's
20:17
Speaker 2: that's how I see it now, That is that that
20:19
Speaker 2: is where we are, and it is it's an absolute
20:23
Speaker 2: indictment because again we talked in an extra about language
20:26
Speaker 2: used and how there's now as well as the sort
20:28
Speaker 2: of catchphrase well, you know, we will not be drawn
20:30
Speaker 2: into the wider war, a clearly absolute rubbish sound bite,
20:34
Speaker 2: but we now have the you know, well we Israel
20:37
Speaker 2: must be restrained, rather than Israel must be stopped, or
20:41
Speaker 2: rather than actually making it into an action, we will
20:43
Speaker 2: stop Israel. So it is just this implicit acceptance that
20:48
Speaker 2: somehow lives being lost through continued bombing campaigns. Basically absolute
20:55
Speaker 2: contraventions of the Geneva Conventions are acceptable because somehow we've
21:01
Speaker 2: all been led into this, this mindset where this stuff
21:05
Speaker 2: is just normal. This happens in the Middle East, not
21:08
Speaker 2: really anywhere else in the world, or at least if
21:09
Speaker 2: it does only for short periods of time.
21:11
Speaker 3: But but we just accept it.
21:12
Speaker 2: And and I think you're absolutely right that Africa is
21:16
Speaker 2: regarded in the same way, but for different reasons.
21:22
Speaker 4: As just want to add something into that German because
21:25
Speaker 4: you know, the and I say this not wishing to
21:30
Speaker 4: in any way undermine the tragedy of anybody that was
21:33
Speaker 4: affected by this so called troubles in Northern Ireland, but
21:37
Speaker 4: you know, the.
21:38
Speaker 5: The the the way that that.
21:42
Speaker 4: I put this, the way, the way that every death
21:45
Speaker 4: in Northern Ireland was considered by the media compared to
21:50
Speaker 4: the way that deaths in the Middle East or Africa
21:52
Speaker 4: are considered by the media, And let's just put Northern
21:56
Speaker 4: Island into perspectives. That was a low intensity insurgency, conflict
22:01
Speaker 4: whatever you want to call it, that lasted for thirty years,
22:05
Speaker 4: with three and a half thousand people killed. There were
22:08
Speaker 4: more people killed on the roads in Northern Ireland over
22:10
Speaker 4: that period of time than there were as a result
22:13
Speaker 4: of the so called conflict. We can have a conversation
22:18
Speaker 4: sometime about the manipulation of that situation by Britain at
22:26
Speaker 4: some point, But the point I'm trying to make here is,
22:29
Speaker 4: you know, there was every every single death in that
22:33
Speaker 4: was caused by the activities of people in Northern Ireland
22:37
Speaker 4: was given top billing on the mainstream news, and yet
22:43
Speaker 4: we have ten times, one hundred times, a thousand times
22:46
Speaker 4: the number of deaths in other places, and really nobody cares.
22:51
Speaker 4: And I absolutely echo what Charles just said about the
22:56
Speaker 4: reason for that. I think it is absolutely about the
22:58
Speaker 4: color of people's skin.
23:01
Speaker 1: I listened to this. In nineteen sixty, Patrice Lamumba, the
23:07
Speaker 1: Congo's first democratically elected prime minister, was disposed in a
23:11
Speaker 1: CIA backed coup, transferred to enemy territory and a CIA
23:14
Speaker 1: approved operation, and shot dead by Congolese assassins. In his place,
23:19
Speaker 1: the US helped install Joseph Mabutu, who then misruled the
23:24
Speaker 1: country for over three decades while Western interests extracted its
23:29
Speaker 1: resources undisturbed. And this wasn't a one off. During the
23:31
Speaker 1: so called War on Terror quote unquote, at least fifteen
23:36
Speaker 1: US trained military officers were involved in twelve coups across
23:39
Speaker 1: Western and Northern Africa countries, including Muquina Fasso. There were
23:44
Speaker 1: four coups in twenty fourteen and twenty fifteen, and twice
23:46
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two, Chad in twenty twenty one, Gambia
23:49
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen Guinea twenty twenty one, and so it goes
23:51
Speaker 1: on Niger. Sorry, Niger's or Nija's. How do you plounce
23:56
Speaker 1: at Niger? I've never known.
23:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, Nija ni.
23:59
Speaker 1: Jeah Okay year twenty twenty three coups at least five
24:02
Speaker 1: of the coup leaders had to receive US military training,
24:05
Speaker 1: and they then appointed five more US trained officers as
24:08
Speaker 1: regional governors. China doesn't come anyway, And I'm not apologizing
24:13
Speaker 1: or being an apologetic for China, but I'm just again
24:16
Speaker 1: pointing out the double standard.
24:18
Speaker 5: Well this is Look, I think we should address that.
24:21
Speaker 4: But the point you just made, because of course there
24:24
Speaker 4: will be people that will say, oh, yeah, you're just
24:25
Speaker 4: cheerleading for China, Well, no, we're not. This isn't China
24:30
Speaker 4: also has issues that deserve criticism. I've mentioned this before
24:36
Speaker 4: on this program. The cobalt minds other types of mining
24:41
Speaker 4: operations where people are being exploited. I think that the
24:46
Speaker 4: difference is that it's the way that the exploitation has
24:51
Speaker 4: been systemic and systematic over the twelve centuries, in fact,
24:56
Speaker 4: by by the West, and the the absolute political manipulation
25:05
Speaker 4: at the most local level in these countries in order
25:08
Speaker 4: to maintain an environment where the mineral extraction can be
25:14
Speaker 4: done with the absolute for the absolute benefit only of
25:18
Speaker 4: the Western interests. The difference that I see with China,
25:22
Speaker 4: despite the situations where they are not doing things in
25:30
Speaker 4: the right way or they deserve criticism for nonetheless at
25:34
Speaker 4: the sort of.
25:36
Speaker 5: Higher political level, they seem to be doing things in
25:40
Speaker 5: a much more decent way. Let's put it that way.
25:47
Speaker 1: Just to add to that a few paragraphs. Dancers are
25:52
Speaker 1: from the nineteen eighties onwards. The IMF, and this is
25:54
Speaker 1: also important because we don't want day traps, and that's
25:57
Speaker 1: a trope that's often used now in relation to China.
26:02
Speaker 1: The IMF and World Bank imposed structural adjustment programs known
26:05
Speaker 1: as SAPs on Sub Saharan African countries, including South Africa.
26:09
Speaker 1: The conditions typically required so typically required adjusting government spending,
26:16
Speaker 1: privatizing state assets. Now that part there's interesting, we'll come
26:19
Speaker 1: back to that, and opening markets to foreign capital. Many
26:23
Speaker 1: African economists argue that these programs caused widespread poverty, dismantled
26:29
Speaker 1: various industries, and locked countries into long term dependency on
26:32
Speaker 1: Western financial institutions. And that's where the privatization comes in.
26:36
Speaker 1: Because On the face of it, it sounds good. Privatize companies,
26:42
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with that. However, a lot of those privatizations
26:45
Speaker 1: were not domestic. They were foreign.
26:50
Speaker 4: Well at On top of that, the loans were given
26:52
Speaker 4: with preconditions about where that money could be spent and
26:55
Speaker 4: had to be spent with Western companies. And then, of
26:57
Speaker 4: course the loans were given there was there was a
27:01
Speaker 4: currency game being played there where the economic conditions were
27:08
Speaker 4: attached to all this ended up devaluing African currencies, which
27:12
Speaker 4: meant that they find it ever harder to pay the
27:15
Speaker 4: loan bark because they were required to pay it back.
27:17
Speaker 5: In the in dollars or whatever.
27:20
Speaker 4: So you know, it was absolutely a scam from beginning
27:23
Speaker 4: to end the entire operation.
27:28
Speaker 1: And then let's not forget all the US military operations
27:34
Speaker 1: known as Africa where they use they have collaborations with
27:40
Speaker 1: military in African countries, but they are biased towards US interests.
27:48
Speaker 1: Now again without apologizing for China, China has no military
27:54
Speaker 1: in Africa other than Jibouti. That's it.
28:01
Speaker 4: No, but Russia does, of course with well whatever the
28:05
Speaker 4: Wagner Group is these days. Yes, so you know there
28:09
Speaker 4: is there is bricks military to some degree and in
28:15
Speaker 4: North Africa and but but not still not.
28:21
Speaker 5: At least I'm not.
28:23
Speaker 4: I haven't seen the same types of operations being runs
28:26
Speaker 4: as have been run by by the West over the decades.
28:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, but the point, the overwatching point that I'm making
28:31
Speaker 1: yet again because I'm just adding more substance to my
28:36
Speaker 1: argument that pointing fingers at China is a deflection because
28:43
Speaker 1: there is so much going on here that is American
28:46
Speaker 1: and British and just Western in general. France, for example,
28:50
Speaker 1: has never really left the African continent. I think it
28:53
Speaker 1: has a strong presence in like something like fourteen countries.
28:56
Speaker 5: Yeah.
28:57
Speaker 4: I mean, but this whole, this whole pointing fingers at
28:59
Speaker 4: China business is just cover for what we're doing. And
29:04
Speaker 4: you know, at the end of the day, you know,
29:06
Speaker 4: Charles and I can do nothing about what China is doing,
29:10
Speaker 4: but but we can hopefully have some kind of influence on,
29:15
Speaker 4: you know, to some degree, and at least in starting
29:17
Speaker 4: the conversation about what Britain's doing. And so that's that's
29:22
Speaker 4: part of the of what we're trying to do, is
29:24
Speaker 4: to to absolutely highlight what this country is doing and
29:28
Speaker 4: what the corporations that are based here or have some
29:33
Speaker 4: kind of city of loaded connection are doing because that
29:38
Speaker 4: that's that's our business. What China is doing, well, we
29:42
Speaker 4: can talk about it, and we can we can criticize it,
29:46
Speaker 4: but that that's really for them to deal with. We
29:50
Speaker 4: have to deal with what our countries are doing, and
29:54
Speaker 4: pointing fingers at China is just distraction. As far as
29:57
Speaker 4: I can see.
29:58
Speaker 1: What is Britain's current influence in Africa? Do you know?
30:03
Speaker 4: Well, aside from what we've been talking about with the
30:06
Speaker 4: money in the guns, I mean, since Dana is a
30:09
Speaker 4: perfect example of it, because because that is you know,
30:13
Speaker 4: if Charles can talk more about this perhaps, but but
30:15
Speaker 4: you know, we we put special forces in boots on
30:19
Speaker 4: the ground, the intelligence agencies are running operations.
30:23
Speaker 5: We've got money going in, we've got weapons going in.
30:26
Speaker 4: Uh It's it's dirty business and and we have been
30:31
Speaker 4: we Britain has been very good at it over the years.
30:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, very good at it. On the on the
30:41
Speaker 2: China picture and the the way in which sands are shifting,
30:45
Speaker 2: which they definitely are, I think I think, you know,
30:49
Speaker 2: obviously Mike's made the point that in describing China's different approach,
30:55
Speaker 2: there's no sense on our part that we're suggesting that
30:59
Speaker 2: everything and it does absolutely squeaky clean and the shining
31:03
Speaker 2: example to the rest of the world.
31:04
Speaker 3: That is simply not the case.
31:06
Speaker 2: But it does appear that for centuries they have taken
31:09
Speaker 2: a different view on how to influence a situation, and
31:13
Speaker 2: I think that's really what we're seeing play out and
31:17
Speaker 2: I find personally, I find it interesting, as I say,
31:19
Speaker 2: just going back to where I began with what I
31:23
Speaker 2: was doing in Rwanda, but that was whilst I was
31:26
Speaker 2: working in Kenya for what, interestingly was a legacy basically
31:32
Speaker 2: a legacy team that went back to the pre independence
31:39
Speaker 2: days and then the British Army retained a position in
31:47
Speaker 2: the Staff College in order to continue to sort of train,
31:51
Speaker 2: mental and advise, and that evolved over the years. And
31:55
Speaker 2: then of course up north we I say we that
31:58
Speaker 2: the British Army maintained the ability to be able to
32:03
Speaker 2: train across vast areas where you can fire any kind
32:09
Speaker 2: of munition you like, so extraordinary and there's obviously a
32:12
Speaker 2: huge amount of drama that's been associated with that over
32:15
Speaker 2: the years. But what's interesting to me is that the
32:18
Speaker 2: team that I worked for, which was on the defense
32:20
Speaker 2: to Pomacy side, so funded by the well what was
32:23
Speaker 2: then the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for
32:26
Speaker 2: International Development and the MOD that team, unless there's a
32:30
Speaker 2: last minute sort of rummage behind the sofa and they
32:34
Speaker 2: find money, that team is about to be shut down.
32:37
Speaker 2: And I find that very interesting at this particular moment because,
32:42
Speaker 2: as I said earlier, the conclusion of the relatively minor
32:47
Speaker 2: engagement I had with the Rwanda Defense Forces back in
32:50
Speaker 2: two thousand and nine was attended, you know, attracted a
32:54
Speaker 2: lot of international interest and as well as the American ambassador,
32:57
Speaker 2: we had, I think we had Germans, Swede, Danes in
33:02
Speaker 2: all sorts. Because everybody is using all the tools at
33:06
Speaker 2: their disposal to try to influence outcomes within these countries
33:10
Speaker 2: and therefore what is called defense diplomas is absolutely a
33:13
Speaker 2: part of that. But interestingly, the whoever does fund or
33:18
Speaker 2: control that team, which I presume is still MOD and
33:22
Speaker 2: Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office, have decided to wind it up,
33:26
Speaker 2: so so there will there will be no representation on
33:30
Speaker 2: the African continent. And that's curious because at exactly the
33:36
Speaker 2: time that I was talking about in Rwanda, that was
33:38
Speaker 2: when you've just talked about AFRICOM. I mean, it was
33:41
Speaker 2: a joke. It still is that Africom was just a
33:46
Speaker 2: paper exercise really and based in headquarters in Germany. It
33:52
Speaker 2: always made me laugh slightly and I hope people aren't
33:54
Speaker 2: gonna take this the wrong way, but it just seemed
33:56
Speaker 2: like a pointed appointment. The first commander AFRICOM, I think
33:59
Speaker 2: was called his surname was Ward. I can't remember what
34:02
Speaker 2: his first name was, General Ward, but he was black.
34:05
Speaker 3: And it's as.
34:06
Speaker 2: Though you think, yeah, right, well, if you know, you
34:08
Speaker 2: just stand up Africam, and if you make the top
34:11
Speaker 2: bloak black, then that will go down really well in
34:14
Speaker 2: Africa and that'll work.
34:16
Speaker 3: That'll be fine.
34:16
Speaker 2: And of course actually there's nothing so awkward as a
34:19
Speaker 2: non African black man in particular in Africa sort of
34:24
Speaker 2: having to do that. And no, actually I'm not African,
34:26
Speaker 2: and I don't speak any of your languages. This, that
34:29
Speaker 2: and the other that can be slightly awkward. But yes,
34:33
Speaker 2: Africam at that time was it looked very much to
34:38
Speaker 2: us in a British team as a way in which
34:41
Speaker 2: the Americans were going to seek to meddle in what
34:45
Speaker 2: we considered to be our business.
34:47
Speaker 3: It was.
34:47
Speaker 2: It was absolutely sort of territorial, but of course the
34:50
Speaker 2: way that they engaged and interacted with Africans was so
34:54
Speaker 2: totally enoughly different. And I think this does, this does
34:57
Speaker 2: go back slightly to what we were talking about with
34:59
Speaker 2: the way in which human life is regarded in so
35:05
Speaker 2: far as people are different, because and I don't mean
35:08
Speaker 2: to say that this excuses the way that the British
35:10
Speaker 2: have conducted themselves and what we did, but the one
35:13
Speaker 2: thing I would say was that the way that small
35:16
Speaker 2: teams of British military personnel have lived over the years,
35:20
Speaker 2: doing so similar jobs is very much to immerse within
35:24
Speaker 2: the local society and culture and whatnot. And it was
35:26
Speaker 2: always very different, very discordant to see how Americans do it,
35:29
Speaker 2: which is absolutely to do fortress America wherever they go.
35:33
Speaker 2: Even so, the guys that worked alongside us in Nairobi
35:37
Speaker 2: were prohibited from driving their own vehicles. They were absolutely
35:41
Speaker 2: not allowed to do that. They had to live in fenced, managed,
35:46
Speaker 2: constantly guarded premises. They were not allowed to visit the
35:50
Speaker 2: coast because of that. You know, there were then the
35:52
Speaker 2: sort of rumblings of Somali piracy and occasional incidents way
35:57
Speaker 2: up on the North Kenya sort of Somali coast see Maleswa,
36:00
Speaker 2: and so that there their approach was completely different. And then,
36:05
Speaker 2: as I say, you then had Africom being supposedly run
36:08
Speaker 2: from Stuttgart. I mean, how on earth was that supposed
36:11
Speaker 2: to make sense? And then of course you go to
36:14
Speaker 2: Jibouti where they've got their camp. It was separate from
36:18
Speaker 2: from Africa on that that was c JTF. How it's
36:22
Speaker 2: was it combined Joint Task Force Horn of Africa. And
36:25
Speaker 2: again just that it's such it's so interesting, especially in
36:28
Speaker 2: life of how what's going on in Iran now? So
36:31
Speaker 2: Horn of Africa, Djibouty and for anyone who hasn't been
36:35
Speaker 2: their Jibouty is tiny, absolutely stunning but effectively a tiny
36:41
Speaker 2: little mountainous outcrop with not an awful lot going on,
36:44
Speaker 2: not very many people. And yet the Americans plunk down
36:50
Speaker 2: absolutely vast, fortified complex and you just I remember, I
36:57
Speaker 2: mean I joked perhaps rather inopportunity, you know, what the heck?
37:01
Speaker 2: What are they expecting when I was driven in the gate,
37:03
Speaker 2: because I mean it was proper sort of watched out
37:05
Speaker 2: and everything else, and I just thought, wow, this is
37:07
Speaker 2: just so different anywhere that I'd ever been that was
37:10
Speaker 2: British was you know, I mean it wasn't. It wasn't naive,
37:14
Speaker 2: but security was minimal because you didn't want to give
37:18
Speaker 2: the suggestion that you perceived yourself to be a target.
37:20
Speaker 2: You wanted to suggest that you were there for the
37:23
Speaker 2: right reasons and you were going to have a positive
37:25
Speaker 2: engagement and all the rest of it. And the Americans,
37:28
Speaker 2: I felt, had that absolutely back to front and were
37:33
Speaker 2: making it look like they considered everybody around them to
37:37
Speaker 2: be their enemy. And I think that speaks volumes about
37:40
Speaker 2: their attitude towards the rest of the world.
37:41
Speaker 1: Come now, Charles, africom and all of US drone bases
37:46
Speaker 1: across the African continent, they're just therefore counter terrorism measures.
37:52
Speaker 2: Yes, JOm, if you say so, but no, I mean,
37:57
Speaker 2: it is interesting. It's something I should revisit, actually, because
38:00
Speaker 2: because I absolutely I can remember this being a big
38:05
Speaker 2: topic of conversation. I think I was even I even
38:08
Speaker 2: spoke to Stars and Stripes. There's sort of propaganda publication
38:14
Speaker 2: about the the you know, the training, the training program
38:20
Speaker 2: that we were running in Ruanda, because it was it
38:23
Speaker 2: was meant to be, you know, it's great and Africa
38:25
Speaker 2: we've got We've got two Americans there, so this is
38:27
Speaker 2: all you know, great collaborative work and on the Americans
38:29
Speaker 2: making a difference in Africa. Right, okay, yeah, two guys. Yeah,
38:35
Speaker 2: I suppose say.
38:37
Speaker 1: I mentioned France earlier, listened to this, Now I've just
38:41
Speaker 1: lost it. Not hold on one second, okay, yotis, fourteen
38:44
Speaker 1: African countries still use the CFA frank a currency that's
38:48
Speaker 1: controlled by France, giving Paris power over their manatory polity policy.
38:54
Speaker 1: Think about that for a second.
38:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's remark it is.
39:00
Speaker 2: I have said, I didn't realize it was that many countries,
39:04
Speaker 2: but but it is.
39:05
Speaker 3: It is remarkable.
39:07
Speaker 4: So even if it was only one, I mean you
39:09
Speaker 4: know that that is, colonialism is far from dead.
39:13
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I.
39:15
Speaker 1: Mean if you can control uh a monetary policy, you
39:19
Speaker 1: have a serious, serious, serious stranglehold.
39:23
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
39:25
Speaker 5: It's all there is.
39:26
Speaker 4: If you're if you're in charge of people's monetary policy,
39:29
Speaker 4: you're in charge of everything.
39:32
Speaker 5: That's it. That's it, end of story.
39:35
Speaker 1: Who was it?
39:35
Speaker 4: Naw?
39:36
Speaker 1: Was it was it Rothchild himself? You see something along
39:38
Speaker 1: the line.
39:39
Speaker 4: All that that that that quote is is attributed to
39:42
Speaker 4: a Rothschild, whether it's actually yeah. I don't know whether
39:47
Speaker 4: it can actually be proven that it was a rothschild,
39:49
Speaker 4: but certainly always attributed to Yeah, well absolutely, sentiment is
39:54
Speaker 4: absolutely true.
39:55
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, what what give me control of how did
39:59
Speaker 1: it go?
40:00
Speaker 5: Again?
40:00
Speaker 1: Something about to control the money?
40:02
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's all the lines that we've just been discussing.
40:04
Speaker 4: Give me control of the country's money, and.
40:07
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know the rest.
40:11
Speaker 1: But the point is, I think to any person listening
40:14
Speaker 1: that this whole concept of look over there plays out
40:23
Speaker 1: perfectly in what we're talking about. Look over there. It's China,
40:26
Speaker 1: it's those countries, it's it's it's it's the black tribes
40:31
Speaker 1: in Rwanda. They hate each other and they're just killing
40:33
Speaker 1: each other. You know what they don't realize is if
40:37
Speaker 1: you just think about it, just let's go back to
40:39
Speaker 1: a wonderful second their charles, How do you have a
40:43
Speaker 1: genocide that lasts what one to two months and suddenly
40:46
Speaker 1: it stops just like that, It starts and it stops
40:50
Speaker 1: just like that. That makes no sense.
40:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. And in fact, that
40:57
Speaker 2: reminds me also at the time of being being spoken
41:01
Speaker 2: to back in ninety four at school, actually being visited
41:05
Speaker 2: by a BBC team who had been filming there, and
41:08
Speaker 2: again it was absolutely reinforcing that point. And I can
41:11
Speaker 2: remember we were shown footage that was never shown to
41:16
Speaker 2: the public because it was too graphic. I don't know
41:19
Speaker 2: why that was appropriate for school children, but anyway, we
41:24
Speaker 2: were and obviously it was absolutely awful, but there was
41:28
Speaker 2: no doubt that we were meant to go away with
41:31
Speaker 2: it with a particular with a particular view. So yeah,
41:37
Speaker 2: you're absolutely right. Sorry, I tell you what, just to
41:39
Speaker 2: finish a point which I guess actually can be related
41:43
Speaker 2: to Rwanda, but because I lost the thread in talking
41:47
Speaker 2: about military engagement and sort of laughing at Africom, I mean, okay,
41:53
Speaker 2: maybe not laughing too much nowadays, but certainly at the inception,
41:57
Speaker 2: it just seems so so pathetic because they were just
42:01
Speaker 2: so obviously reluctant to actually get involved rather than just
42:04
Speaker 2: making a show of being involved. But you see this
42:06
Speaker 2: in terms of the Chinese approach. What is very interesting
42:10
Speaker 2: Having traveled in the job I was doing then, I
42:12
Speaker 2: traveled around the continent quite far and wide and attended
42:17
Speaker 2: many a conference, an African Union conference with which I
42:20
Speaker 2: must say is an experience, it really is in a
42:25
Speaker 2: good way, but gosh, what an insight. And the thing
42:30
Speaker 2: is what you come away from that thinking is, okay,
42:33
Speaker 2: I can see why this why there are the birds
42:37
Speaker 2: on the bird table scrapping away, by which I mean
42:40
Speaker 2: the so called.
42:43
Speaker 3: You know, allied powers for want of a better phrase.
42:46
Speaker 2: So the British, the French, the Germans, and the Scandinavian
42:51
Speaker 2: countries always they were all involved. You would then see
42:56
Speaker 2: even the Japanese, you know, there was there was from
43:00
Speaker 2: from many different countries. And so what they would do
43:02
Speaker 2: because because Africa broadly is split into regions as far
43:06
Speaker 2: as military command is concerned, but it's not it's not
43:09
Speaker 2: quite like those.
43:09
Speaker 3: This was all.
43:10
Speaker 2: This was all to do with the with the idea
43:12
Speaker 2: that the African Union could have a high readiness force
43:15
Speaker 2: in order that the United Nations in transigence is circumvent,
43:19
Speaker 2: so the African Union can just say, right, we've we've
43:21
Speaker 2: got a job on in wherever we've got again, stop
43:23
Speaker 2: the stop the flood destruction, or stop the genocide or whatever. Okay, yeah,
43:28
Speaker 2: in a way a lovely idea, politically almost impossible, practically undeliverable,
43:36
Speaker 2: and and all the rest of it. Nonetheless, it drew
43:40
Speaker 2: in a huge amount of effort and funding, because basically,
43:44
Speaker 2: people feared that When I say people, I mean governments
43:47
Speaker 2: feared that if they if they sort of took their
43:50
Speaker 2: poker out of the fire, then they that that was it.
43:53
Speaker 2: They lost they lost influence. Now I would say that
43:57
Speaker 2: that has all been the Probert act of looking in
44:01
Speaker 2: and not out, and that's where China has distinguished itself
44:05
Speaker 2: or made a distinct policy decision, because nowhere ever was
44:13
Speaker 2: China encountered in any of those things, even behind the scenes.
44:16
Speaker 2: They weren't involved in any of that, and yet look
44:20
Speaker 2: at the enormous inroads that they have made through other means.
44:25
Speaker 2: So it's just it looks as though and of course
44:29
Speaker 2: we can't say any of this without contextualizing by history,
44:32
Speaker 2: because with the exception of Japan, all the countries I'm
44:35
Speaker 2: talking about to a certain extent do have a history
44:37
Speaker 2: in Africa that goes back centuries usually at least. But nonetheless,
44:45
Speaker 2: it is as though they just thought it through. They
44:47
Speaker 2: looked at the problem, for want of a better word,
44:50
Speaker 2: they saw what they wanted to achieve and came up
44:53
Speaker 2: with a different idea. Now, I would say, given the
44:57
Speaker 2: amazing amount of confusion that surrounded all the things that
45:02
Speaker 2: I saw, which was that every single defense engagement, defense
45:08
Speaker 2: diplomacy engagement was always yes, this is the plan, we
45:12
Speaker 2: will do this, and then something totally different happened every
45:17
Speaker 2: time that the plan was never ever followed. Now that's
45:20
Speaker 2: not a criticism of Africans at all. That was because
45:26
Speaker 2: there was always the Western insistence that our doctrine makes
45:31
Speaker 2: sense and that is what they want to do. Absolutely rubbish.
45:34
Speaker 2: And this was going back to the tactical course that
45:37
Speaker 2: I was delivering back in Rwanda. It was to the
45:40
Speaker 2: total consternation of the warrant officers and noncommissioned officers that
45:47
Speaker 2: I had working for me that the view was just
45:50
Speaker 2: totally different, like that for African infantry ruand in industry
45:53
Speaker 2: they don't have a logistics chain. They just go and
45:56
Speaker 2: they take a bit of kit with them. But in
45:59
Speaker 2: terms of food, water, they just pick that up as
46:01
Speaker 2: they go. So there was there was total total mismatch
46:05
Speaker 2: of ideas, but how to how to achieve things? And
46:07
Speaker 2: I know, okay, I'm going right down to the lowest
46:09
Speaker 2: tactical level, but actually that does speak volumes about the
46:12
Speaker 2: complete misunderstanding that the that Western governments have because of course,
46:18
Speaker 2: all these channels feedback into the ministries and then that
46:21
Speaker 2: gets fed back into the machine and whatnot. This this
46:24
Speaker 2: this idea that yes, what we're doing, we are projecting soft,
46:29
Speaker 2: softish power. In actual fact, it's not it's not working.
46:33
Speaker 2: It's really not working, whereas the Chinese approach has been
46:38
Speaker 2: completely different and has yielded totally different results without all
46:42
Speaker 2: the tremendous disappointment of continual huge amounts of money just
46:46
Speaker 2: disappearing and never being seen again, and indeed for your
46:49
Speaker 2: supposed influence not actually manifesting.
46:52
Speaker 1: I think there is in what you're saying also an
46:55
Speaker 1: element of cultural truth. Now that's a conversation entirely different
46:59
Speaker 1: and separate one you can have on a different day,
47:01
Speaker 1: because culture is it plays a huge role, and there
47:04
Speaker 1: are massive cultural differences in the way subs areign Africans
47:08
Speaker 1: do things. You were alluding to that that's highly complex, complex.
47:15
Speaker 1: But I mentioned Conger earlier and I wanted to just
47:18
Speaker 1: add this. In the DRC, the story is similar, but
47:23
Speaker 1: with cobalt and copper instead of golden diamonds. It's referencing
47:28
Speaker 1: South Africa. There, the country the DRC sits on an
47:31
Speaker 1: estimated twenty four trillion US dollars in untapped minerals, including
47:35
Speaker 1: sixty percent of the world's cobalt supply, which is essential
47:39
Speaker 1: for every iPhone, Tesla, and Samsung device on Earth. Western
47:43
Speaker 1: owned mining houses profit and estimated three hundred and thirty
47:46
Speaker 1: five billion US dollars annually from these African operations, while
47:51
Speaker 1: the continent itself loses around sixty billion per year through
47:54
Speaker 1: trade mispricing and illicit financial flows alone, which is more
47:59
Speaker 1: than it receives. And just about everything else. Now, just
48:02
Speaker 1: consider that for a second. I mean, we're going tech.
48:05
Speaker 1: This is where the next battle is going to be.
48:10
Speaker 4: Well, that's where the battle already is. But yeah, and
48:14
Speaker 4: of course that means that every one of us that
48:17
Speaker 4: owns any kind of tech device is complicit in what
48:21
Speaker 4: is going on there, and that is also something that
48:25
Speaker 4: we should be considering when we're deciding whether we give
48:29
Speaker 4: a dam or not.
48:32
Speaker 3: I totally agree.
48:33
Speaker 2: I mean, it is Unfortunately, it's very, very difficult not
48:36
Speaker 2: to be hypocritical about this, but I think, well, we've
48:43
Speaker 2: talked about this quite a lot before. We've talked about
48:46
Speaker 2: the very obvious hypocrisy with regard to the positions that
48:49
Speaker 2: people take on China in particular, and how utterly dependent
48:53
Speaker 2: they are upon goods produced from or processed in China.
49:00
Speaker 2: And this is you know, sort of part of the
49:03
Speaker 2: same thing. But now, I mean, again that's not really
49:08
Speaker 2: talked about because I mean the British government again is
49:11
Speaker 2: very is very slippery on this. The mineral strategy that's
49:18
Speaker 2: written up by the government does not in any way
49:22
Speaker 2: allude to the destruction of societies sort of over there
49:28
Speaker 2: in pursuit of what it's said that we need. It
49:32
Speaker 2: is yet another example of the language just being twisted
49:35
Speaker 2: to make it sound like we are doing the right
49:38
Speaker 2: thing that is necessary and that nobody really loses out.
49:41
Speaker 2: That is not the case at all.
49:47
Speaker 1: Mike, you mentioned being aware of the devices that we're buying.
49:54
Speaker 1: There isn't necessarily an implication that there is some sort
49:58
Speaker 1: of slavery happening there, but there is an implication that
50:02
Speaker 1: there is economic abuse happening.
50:08
Speaker 5: I don't I don't think that's quite right.
50:09
Speaker 4: I mean, some of the mining operations are using child labor.
50:15
Speaker 5: People are dying because because the you know.
50:18
Speaker 4: The health and safety situation is appalling, so you know
50:22
Speaker 4: that they're they're absolutely whether it's called slavery or not.
50:26
Speaker 4: People are being exploited, and uh, and you know that
50:31
Speaker 4: is that is something that we are all complicit and
50:35
Speaker 4: by using these devices.
50:38
Speaker 1: Okay, but then what I mean, what is what I mean?
50:43
Speaker 1: What is it that you're that you're suggesting? Then do
50:45
Speaker 1: do people stop buying iPhones and samsungs?
50:50
Speaker 4: Well, you know that that's that's I think it's let's
50:55
Speaker 4: put it this way. At the very least, we should
50:59
Speaker 4: know what it is we're buying. At the very least,
51:02
Speaker 4: we should make a cont you.
51:03
Speaker 5: Know, we we we all.
51:05
Speaker 4: Sat and said, you know, during the covid oocracy full disclosure,
51:13
Speaker 4: I've got the right to make a decision about what
51:15
Speaker 4: happens with my own body based on and we all
51:18
Speaker 4: criticized doctors and whatever for not telling us the full
51:21
Speaker 4: story about the vaccines and so on. We can't then
51:25
Speaker 4: sit here and say, well, I don't give a damn
51:27
Speaker 4: what the full story is about the iPhone that I'm
51:29
Speaker 4: using or the Samsung phone that I'm using. We should
51:33
Speaker 4: be going out of our way to find out exactly
51:36
Speaker 4: what is this device that I'm using. Am I comfortable
51:40
Speaker 4: using it? And if I'm not comfortable using it, then
51:43
Speaker 4: I have a choice not to use it or to
51:46
Speaker 4: do something active to change the situation for the people
51:50
Speaker 4: that are producing the raw materials that went into building
51:52
Speaker 4: that and into the next version of that that I'm
51:55
Speaker 4: going to buy. So but to just pretend that, well,
51:58
Speaker 4: I don't take one position over one policy area and
52:02
Speaker 4: not and take the exact opposite position over another. That
52:06
Speaker 4: that is, as Charles said, utterly hypocritical. And so that's
52:11
Speaker 4: that's where the that's where the change starts.
52:16
Speaker 1: Sorry, it sounds like I'm jumping around, but it's all interconnected.
52:18
Speaker 1: Just when I was talking about the fourteen currencies controlled
52:21
Speaker 1: by Paris, just listen to this. This is a system. Now,
52:27
Speaker 1: I apologize, I can't speak French, so I'm got to
52:29
Speaker 1: butcher some of these words. You're welcome to correct me.
52:33
Speaker 1: This is the system Francois miuterrand Matrand Madrand was referring
52:38
Speaker 1: to when you reportedly already have a butchered charge.
52:43
Speaker 5: Quite a lot. I want to.
52:52
Speaker 1: I can't say that.
52:57
Speaker 3: Can you crack on? And we'll just laugh, all right?
52:59
Speaker 1: And he he was referring, So this is the system
53:03
Speaker 1: that he was referring to when he reportedly said that
53:05
Speaker 1: France would be irrelevant to twenty first century history unless
53:09
Speaker 1: it maintained its control of Africa. France has also historically
53:14
Speaker 1: vetted and backed African political elites through the informal network
53:18
Speaker 1: known as frank Afrique, a web of political, military, and
53:23
Speaker 1: business relationships that have kept compliant leaders in power and
53:27
Speaker 1: inconvenient ones out. Now that itself is very interesting.
53:33
Speaker 4: I guess it must have been in the in the eighties,
53:37
Speaker 4: Thomas Sankara had taken over a Braquina Faso through a
53:40
Speaker 4: coup and he did some pretty you know, he was
53:47
Speaker 4: a sort of Marxist check with our type, but he
53:51
Speaker 4: did some made some very positive changes in the country.
53:55
Speaker 4: He gave a speech to the African Union and Addis
53:58
Speaker 4: Ababa can't remember what year it was. His failed in French,
54:00
Speaker 4: but subtitle it is available on YouTube and I absolutely
54:04
Speaker 4: encourage everybody to watch it because it's a great example
54:08
Speaker 4: of how nothing has changed and and he's talking about
54:12
Speaker 4: the need for African countries to simply stop repaying the
54:17
Speaker 4: debt because of the you know, because the debt has
54:20
Speaker 4: been exploited to such a degree. And he was talking
54:23
Speaker 4: about the fact that the clothes that he was wearing
54:25
Speaker 4: were all made in you know, in Burkina Faso and
54:29
Speaker 4: so on that anyway, it's full of humor and it's
54:32
Speaker 4: actually it actually gives a good insight as to how
54:36
Speaker 4: the mind of the man and it is fascinating, so
54:38
Speaker 4: do watch it. But the point is, you know, he
54:42
Speaker 4: said that at the end of that sport, during that speech,
54:45
Speaker 4: that he expected that if he did not get the
54:49
Speaker 4: support of his colleagues, his other African leaders, that he
54:55
Speaker 4: would not be attending the African Union conference the following year.
55:00
Speaker 4: And the deed, he wasn't because he was assassinated pretty
55:02
Speaker 4: much after, not long after he made that speech. And
55:06
Speaker 4: Bakina Faso then has gone through, you know, a couple
55:10
Speaker 4: a few decades of pretty turbulent times. They finally got
55:14
Speaker 4: another leader that seems to be you know, as you
55:18
Speaker 4: mentioned Jerrem, after several coups and coup attempts. If they've
55:21
Speaker 4: got a new leader that seems to be of this
55:24
Speaker 4: and Kara mold and and it looks like a much
55:27
Speaker 4: more positive direction they're heading in at the moment. But
55:30
Speaker 4: you know, the French influence has never gone and and
55:36
Speaker 4: I've completely lost the threat of wars going with that.
55:38
Speaker 4: But but anyway, you know, just just I think you
55:42
Speaker 4: know that that would be a good place. Apart from
55:45
Speaker 4: the Rwanda situation that we started off with. That's another
55:48
Speaker 4: good example of learn a little bit of the history
55:52
Speaker 4: of that of that country and what's happened there over
55:54
Speaker 4: the past forty fifty years and give an insight as
55:59
Speaker 4: to how they these countries are manipulated by France, by
56:05
Speaker 4: the UK colonial prs that have never gone.
56:08
Speaker 1: So just to encapsulate a bunch of what we've said, yeah,
56:13
Speaker 1: we have Anglo American which has more or less half
56:18
Speaker 1: of South Africa's economy in its hands. We've got we
56:21
Speaker 1: haven't even mentioned this, but we have a significant Israeli
56:25
Speaker 1: influenced Also, all of South Africa's major political parties get
56:28
Speaker 1: Israeli funding. The surname Opponeimer pops up everywhere, and it's
56:32
Speaker 1: also involved in our mining sector. We have fourteen currencies
56:36
Speaker 1: controlled by French interests. We have a huge, huge American
56:41
Speaker 1: and British interest right across the African continent. And of
56:47
Speaker 1: course my Chinese car is a huge problem because China
56:53
Speaker 1: is taking over it, doesn't it. Just I wish people
56:56
Speaker 1: would wake up now and start thinking a little bit
56:58
Speaker 1: about what it is that they're saying. Mike, well, I.
57:04
Speaker 4: Can't say anything other than yes to that. I also
57:06
Speaker 4: wish people people would do that.
57:11
Speaker 1: I feel like we have to keep banging this drum.
57:14
Speaker 1: But I think we have to keep banging this drum
57:16
Speaker 1: because that's what's going on now, with what's happening. And again,
57:21
Speaker 1: you know, Trump is this wonderful example of a pint viper.
57:24
Speaker 1: Everybody around me now suddenly is supporting attacks on your run,
57:29
Speaker 1: you know, oppressive regime because they're buying into a media
57:35
Speaker 1: framework that has been designed to influence them in a
57:39
Speaker 1: particular direction. And we touch on that also. So there's
57:41
Speaker 1: colonialism of the mind going.
57:43
Speaker 2: On also, Absolutely there is. I mean, I do find
57:47
Speaker 2: that staggering, but it does speak to what we are
57:49
Speaker 2: talking about about, you know, the distinctions that people make
57:52
Speaker 2: according to where in the world the people that we're
57:55
Speaker 2: supposed to be thinking about actually are. And for that
58:00
Speaker 2: that sort of mental gymnastic process to take place, that's
58:07
Speaker 2: that's that's a big sort of background campaign that must
58:10
Speaker 2: have gone on to allow people to think that effectively
58:13
Speaker 2: saying that that in pursuit of such and such and such,
58:17
Speaker 2: an end with which I agree so in this case,
58:21
Speaker 2: regime change in Iran because the previous regime, well or
58:26
Speaker 2: rather the existing regime is so oppressive that therefore I
58:30
Speaker 2: am able to consider absolutely anything as a means for
58:34
Speaker 2: ending it, even if I have no idea what the
58:37
Speaker 2: consequence of that will be. And that is boldly stated
58:42
Speaker 2: by the Trump administration. They don't know, they don't know
58:46
Speaker 2: what it is that they're even pursuing. Beyond the well,
58:51
Speaker 2: this is no good and to help with the consequences,
58:55
Speaker 2: we're going to try and smash it up. And you know,
58:58
Speaker 2: we what do we hope for? We hope for popular uprising?
59:01
Speaker 2: You know what does that mean, especially if we consider
59:04
Speaker 2: that we stop where we start with a you know,
59:08
Speaker 2: so called genocide in Rwanda? I mean, what what exactly
59:11
Speaker 2: is a popular uprising look like? And how much control
59:13
Speaker 2: do you have over that?
59:14
Speaker 3: It is?
59:15
Speaker 2: It is absolutely staggering that people can, like you say,
59:18
Speaker 2: go along with yes, well we'll we'll, we'll put our
59:23
Speaker 2: money on that one because we've basically been conditioned to
59:26
Speaker 2: think that that the status quo is so bad we
59:29
Speaker 2: should do absolutely anything we can to to change it.
59:33
Speaker 2: And and I think that falls completely in with Yes,
59:37
Speaker 2: Middle East, I just accept it. They blow each other
59:39
Speaker 2: up all the time, so it's completely fine. Africa they
59:42
Speaker 2: get their routinely displaced and they can't stop starving, but
59:45
Speaker 2: that's fine.
59:46
Speaker 1: M So that that basically means that if you do
59:50
Speaker 1: follow mainstream media for goodness sake, also follow.
59:54
Speaker 6: UK column a megaphone filter just to try and bring
1:00:04
Speaker 6: it guys, just.
1:00:06
Speaker 2: Really just how many how many rare minerals from d
1:00:11
Speaker 2: r C has gone into making that jem.
1:00:16
Speaker 1: I've got no idea, but there's always an opportunity to
1:00:19
Speaker 1: throw in a megaphone now, But seriously, I mean, it
1:00:23
Speaker 1: takes a long long time I have found to filter
1:00:29
Speaker 1: through all the rubbish that's out there, and I think
1:00:31
Speaker 1: in closing, all I can say is I'm on the
1:00:36
Speaker 1: African continent and this stuff matters to me. And if
1:00:39
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter to most people in the West, I
1:00:42
Speaker 1: ready hope to some degree they will understand that they
1:00:46
Speaker 1: at least should ask questions about what it is that
1:00:49
Speaker 1: they're being fed.
1:00:53
Speaker 4: Understand where it is they're putting their money. Yes, all
1:00:57
Speaker 4: these kinds of things completely agree with you.
1:00:59
Speaker 1: Mhm. Alright, Well, on that note, gentlemen, we'll catch up
1:01:04
Speaker 1: with you next week.