Latest / The Delicious Culture with Jon Francois / Tattooing Is Delicious w/ Star, Queen of the Darned

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Tattooing Is Delicious w/ Star, Queen of the Darned · The Delicious Culture with Jon Francois

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  the link in my show notes. When I do skulls,
• 1:01
  I always reference catacomb skulls because they
• 1:03
  have these nice soft edges to them. Like when
• 1:06
  you look up regular skulls or like medical study
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  skulls, they all look too clean and too sharp.
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  It looks like a brand new skull. And I don't
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  know. That's just not aesthetically pleasing
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  when it's a brand new shiny skull. So. This is,
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  like, kind of a nice, like, he's probably got
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  some moss in there somewhere, you know? Like,
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  an old skeleton. And he's got, like, a star for
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  an eye in one of his sockets. And he's... I think
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  I'm gonna give him a gold tooth at some point,
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  too, because I feel like when things have teeth,
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  you ought to really give him a gold tooth. Hey,
• 1:40
  delishies. Grab a plate and taste the delicious
• 1:42
  culture. I'm your host, John Francois. We are
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  feasting on food, pop culture, and lifestyle
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  with tattoo artist, star, queen of the darned.
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  Now, why that name? Please tell me. I want to
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  hear the story. So, first of all, I love Queen
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  of the Damned. I mean, who fucking doesn't? And
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  what is Queen of the Damned? Because I'm stupid.
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  I don't know anything. Oh, it's a movie with
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  vampires and Aaliyah. You should really watch
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  it. It's great. Wonderful. So darned, D -A -R
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  -N -E -D, is there a specific meaning to that
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  or is it just kind of like... So darning and
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  sewing is reinforcing things and with tattooing
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  I use needles as well and I like to think of
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  tattoos as like psychic armor. It's like a reinforcement
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  itself. Yeah. That is great. And for those that
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  may not be watching on Spotify and YouTube, I
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  encourage you to, because you could see stars.
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  I'm assuming this is your tattoo work that you
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  did on yourself, right? Oh, no, no, no. There's
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  no way I could do this on myself. Most of what
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  you see on my chest and my neck here is my good
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  friend Barnsy. He just opened a new studio downtown.
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  Downtown Burlington, Vermont. Yeah. Or Winooski
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  actually. Is it Winooski or Burlington? He was
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  in Winooski. I think he moved over to downtown
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  Burlington. Gotcha. But I'm over in Winooski.
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  All right. Wonderful. Yeah. And for those who
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  are not local to Vermont who are watching and
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  listening to this, Burlington is the all around
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  central city hub, but within that is surrounding
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  towns like Winooski right here in Vermont. All
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  right. Wonderful. So can you describe what it
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  is that you have on your chest and neck? Because
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  I'll be honest, I was like distracted in the
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  best way possible. I was like, Oh my God. Cause
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  you know, permanent jewelry. Yeah, right? Yeah.
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  Because, you know, for the listener and viewer,
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  the way you and I know each other, I'm an Uber
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  and Lyft driver in the greater Burlington area,
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  and you are one of my frequent riders. And like
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  you said before we started recording, you usually
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  have a shirt that covers all of this wonderful
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  tattoo work. And now I'm feeling insulted because
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  I get the full show now. And it would pleasantly
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  surprise me once you hopped on our Riverside
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  studio here. So yeah, just describe what you
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  have on your chest and neck there. Um, so I've
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  got like all the way down my neck and shoulders
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  here. Um, he did like some really nice, like,
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  like larger line work. Um, it's all like, just,
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  uh, like ornamental. I pretty much just sent
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  him references of his own work that I liked and
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  said that I really enjoyed the fern shapes and
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  wanted something celestial years. We gave me
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  a moon. Um, people always miss that part and
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  ask if it's new, but it was all kind of like,
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  like my neck was all done at once. And then this
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  was a different session. And then my whole chest
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  I had done by him, but it's all done in dots.
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  So all this solid stuff here was all dots. It
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  healed like really beautifully. I see why he
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  does it that way. not feel great, but it looks
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  really nice. I was going to say, because like
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  that chest and neck area, the fact that it's
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  just beautifully colored with this tattoo work
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  that you're describing, um, all I can imagine
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  is just, Oh my God, that is painful because I
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  kind of, I mean, partially I stay away from tattoos
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  because I just don't have the creative imagination
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  to think of one for me. But also I look at what
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  you have on your chest and neck and I'm like,
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  Oh my God, that's a beautiful piece of art. And
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  also I think I would cry with all the needling
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  that might have to go through my chest and neck
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  area to produce that beautiful work. Well, I
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  definitely know. People frequently ask what the
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  worst spot is, and that's very subjective. It
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  varies person to person. But places with greater
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  nerve density tend to be pretty awful, like your
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  chest or your stomach, because all of your important
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  stuff is underneath. So your body has this whole
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  system in place that works as it should to be
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  like, holy shit, danger signal, danger signal.
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  And then your body does this crazy shit for you
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  and you ignore that for long enough. It's almost
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  meditative. in some weird way. Like I have a
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  harder time getting smaller tattoos than larger
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  work because you don't have the time to like
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  settle in as they call it. Like the smaller pieces.
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  Yeah, your body is like in fight or flight basically
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  the first few minutes of a tattoo. Cause it's
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  like, holy shit, what is this? Like get away
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  from what's doing that. But then there's like
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  this rush of endorphins that happens when you
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  sit for a long time. Okay. So with a smaller
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  tattoo, because it doesn't take as long to do,
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  it's more easy to like focus on that quick amount
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  of time on the abnormality, the pain, the sort
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  of discomfort that you feel. But with a longer
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  tattoo, it goes from, oh my God, this is painful
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  and uncomfortable to, okay, now I'm used to this.
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  Now I'm getting a better tolerance for it. And
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  now I can just kind of sit back and enjoy. Yeah.
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  I think as long as you don't, you know, there's
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  this whole myth of painless tattoos that the
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  internet has kind of perpetuated. You know, people
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  are like, well, if you use this numbing cream,
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  you won't fit. But a lot of that is, you know,
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  made out a lot better than it really is. Like,
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  for example, I've used numbing cream, I had clients
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  use it a few times, and it only lasts for about
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  an hour. And the thing about it is you're all
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  of a sudden feeling all of it at once when that
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  wears off versus ever easing into it like I'm
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  talking about. Um, I think the times that I've
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  struggled have been the times that I've gone
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  into it feeling really confident. I mean like
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  this isn't going to hurt. That's what I get humbled.
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  But if you go into it like this is going to hurt
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  and you accept that it's going to suck and it's
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  okay. Yeah. Yeah. So basically the thing is don't
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  jinx it. Uh, just, uh, just shut up and let whatever
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  happened happens. Pretty much. There's this whole
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  um, Japanese ethos of um, surrender. And there's
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  a tattooer I really love named Jeffrey Goog and
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  he has like a half hour long video that's on
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  YouTube and stuff just called Surrender. And
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  it's the story of him going to get his bodysuit
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  done in Japan. And they're like so like on the
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  stoicism front that he flinched. I think it was
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  day two of like full day sessions and he flinched
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  and the artist was mortified and stopped them
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  for the day. Like. Oh my goodness. There's something
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  about surrendering to the artist and the art
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  and the pain and it's transcendental. What was
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  the very first tattoo that you got on yourself?
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  When did this happen? Tell me about that story.
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  So my true first tattoo I did on myself as a
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  stick and poke on the inside of my hip with a
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  safety pin and Bic pen ink when I was 13. Is
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  that safe? No, I definitely would not recommend
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  doing that. Did you get an infection? Like what
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  happened? It looks crazy. I didn't know what
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  I was doing. The needle I was using is not appropriate
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  for what I was using it for. So, like, when you
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  have, like, a safety pin, it has, like, this
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  bevel to it, right? So, it's, like, really pointy
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  on the end, but then it rapidly becomes larger.
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  So, you try to, like, put that in the skin, and
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  it creates what we call a blowout. It goes below
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  the layer it's supposed to be standing of the
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  dermis and enters the fat layer, which causes,
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  like, this bluish fucking, like, cloud around
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  it, essentially. So yeah, I tried to heal it
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  with sunscreen and Band -Aids. I was 13 and it
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  was like just everything I could find on Google
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  about it. And that's not a way you want to heal
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  a tattoo either. It fucks with the pigment. So
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  it made it this weird blue color and it just,
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  it doesn't look great. It looks like a 13 -year
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  -old did it. Wait, wait, do you still have it
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  or did he make sure that? I do. So I had a friend
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  work around it. I don't know how easily I can,
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  I think I can show you what actually. Sure. So
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  the face in the middle of this scorpion here.
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  Oh, wow. So the scorpion I had my friend do,
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  the face in the middle was mine. Is the red spot
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  behind the scorpion, is that you working around
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  your 13 -year -old tattoo? Yeah, I had my friend
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  do it around it for me, because I can't reach
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  there on myself very well. Okay, so the scorpion
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  itself is a more recent tattoo. Scorpion is recent.
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  The thing in the middle, though, was the first
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  tattoo I ever did. It was supposed to be the
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  nirvana, like the band symbol. Okay. Yeah. So
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  it's like a little face with the tongue out.
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  Yeah. So how did we, cause if I was 13 years
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  old and I did what you did and, you know, totally
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  flopped and, and almost hurt or infected myself,
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  whatever, maybe that might turn me off from tattooing.
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  What, what from that experience led you to eventually
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  like embrace tattoo? artistry both on yourself
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  and others. So I think somewhere in my head because
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  of my total lack of knowledge at the time, I
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  considered it a success at the time because I
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  got into stick. Like I didn't even recognize
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  that it was such a bad tattoo either. You know,
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  it was more just like I did it. I made a tattoo.
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  And then for years, I just didn't really think
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  about it other than like, you know, I stick and
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  poked myself a lot. I have a lot of like little
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  tiny things I did as a teenager still with like
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  sewing needles and crazy shit. And, you know,
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  I used to smoke a lot of weed and, like, drink
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  and stuff even at a pretty young age. So I was
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  just doing all that and really not thinking much
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  about the consequences or, like, even in a broader
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  way, like, how that could possibly be an avenue
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  for me in life. Like, I think I was just so afraid
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  of doing it to other people that it just never
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  even crossed my mind for a long time. I've always
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  made art. Like, I've been painting. I have a
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  photo that hangs above my station at work of
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  me. It's six months old and my mom propping me
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  up so I can paint. So I've been doing it like
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  that long. And it was only really like the beginning
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  of COVID. I lived in Alabama and I was by myself
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  a lot and I started drawing tattoo flash. And
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  at that point I had a lot of tattoos I'd gone
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  and had done in shops and I kind of had a better
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  understanding of what made a good tattoo. Tattoo
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  flash? What is that? So flash is what we refer
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  to like pre -drawn designs as. So like, you know,
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  it's the stuff that we come up with on our own
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  with the idea of it being a tattoo without any
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  guidance from a client. So things that we just
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  think would be like a nice piece to do. And typically
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  those are done at like a lower cost because you're
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  picking it, it's already done. You don't have
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  to do any custom work for the client that picks
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  that. Can you think of a great example of like,
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  of you implementing a tattoo flash on somebody,
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  something that stuck out to you? that you're
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  really proud of? I'm lucky enough to mostly tattoo
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  flash at this point. Like, it's mostly my own
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  design work I'm doing on people, so that's pretty
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  cool. And it really never loses that, like, wow
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  factor of, like, you know, because I have, like,
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  you know, people see the finished product and
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  choose it, right, and that's very flattering.
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  But I have the whole perspective of, like, starting
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  with, literally, I start with, like, everything
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  with basic shapes that are, like, scribbling.
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  like you know I just lay out everything where
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  it needs to be first and it looks like a child
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  drawing and to take it from there to like a drawing
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  and then printing it out and then putting it
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  on someone is like such a crazy um yeah just
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  it really never loses the excitement every time
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  so I'm like wow you liked what I came up with
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  so wait so the standard thing is like someone
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  comes in like as you mentioned they come into
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  a tattoo shop they could look at a finished product
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  and say And this finished product is typically,
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  like, what, on a display case and a wall or something
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  like that, or just an album book? Yeah, there's,
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  like, flash racks people put on walls. That's
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  kind of the old -school -like method. And a lot
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  of that is, like, flashed by other artists, because
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  you can buy sheets from, like, you know, the
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  90s, like Cherry Creek. Spalding Rogers is from
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  the 70s. So, like, when people talk about going
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  into a shop in the 90s or whatever and picking
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  something off a wall, that's usually what they're
• 12:43
  picking from. people with their own personal
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  flash, I mean, for the most part, what I've seen
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  and what I do is you keep it in a binder and
• 12:50
  that way people can flip through it. Right. And,
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  um, all right. So that's the, that, that would
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  be the usual thing. They say, okay, could make
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  me whatever the fuck I'm seeing in this binder
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  and I love, but a tattoo flash, what you're doing
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  for the most part, is it someone coming in and
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  saying, okay, uh, just do with me what you will
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  or what you think speaks to me? Or do they give
• 13:14
  you like a vague idea of what they're looking
• 13:16
  for and then you go off of that? Like how does
• 13:19
  that conversation turn out when they come in?
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  So do you mean like beyond like the pre -draw
• 13:25
  stuff? Like when someone wants something like
• 13:26
  a little more custom? Um, I, I just want to know
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  like what's, so someone comes into a tattoo shop,
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  uh, say they're a new person like me who's never
• 13:34
  had a tattoo before. Um, and they're open to
• 13:37
  the idea of tattoo flashing as you call it. Like
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  how would that all begin? Should I like aid you
• 13:44
  with like some, uh, a little idea of what I'm
• 13:47
  looking for? Like, Oh, I'm looking for something
• 13:49
  like nature themed. And then you go off of that
• 13:51
  or is it just, I shut up and don't say anything.
• 13:54
  And then you just come in and do what you want.
• 13:56
  Typically, I like to have some idea. I don't
• 13:58
  like to choose for people. I have some clients
• 14:00
  who, I mean, I'll build a relationship with someone
• 14:03
  to a point where when they're saying, I want
• 14:04
  you to make something for me and I don't want
• 14:06
  input. it takes a certain level of trust to know
• 14:10
  that someone really means that. Some people think
• 14:12
  they're like doing me a favor by showing up and
• 14:14
  being like, just run it. But then what they really
• 14:16
  mean is they want me to read their mind. And
• 14:18
  I can't do that. It's helpful to have like at
• 14:20
  least some level of like, hey, I'm looking for,
• 14:23
  you know, like a pin up or like, yeah, something
• 14:25
  nature themed or, you know. But a lot of the
• 14:28
  time people show up and just say, can I see your
• 14:30
  flash? So I just hand them the book and let them
• 14:32
  flip through until they find something. And sometimes
• 14:34
  people will find something and be like, hey,
• 14:35
  I love this, but if we could change this or that
• 14:38
  and I'm I'm down to change details on things,
• 14:40
  you know? Wow. Look at you emailing at the workplace
• 14:49
  because you think that's the only way to email
• 14:51
  people. Wrong! John Francois with the Delicious
• 14:54
  Culture Podcast. Any questions, comments, concerns,
• 14:58
  feedback you may have about the podcast? Positive,
• 15:01
  negative? I'll allow any of it. Feel free to
• 15:03
  reach out. I'm just an email away, thedeliciousculture
• 15:06
  at gmail .com. So what's in a flash book? Is
• 15:12
  it, you, you mentioned like, is it just shapes
• 15:15
  and like, what, what, what, what is it beyond?
• 15:17
  So they're basically line drawings. Um, I've
• 15:19
  got a couple of sketchbooks in front of me. I
• 15:21
  don't know if I have much like completed flash.
• 15:23
  This is probably the most visual episode that
• 15:26
  we're going to have. So please like watch the
• 15:27
  video on Spotify and YouTube or else it's not
• 15:29
  going to make any sense, but go ahead. Yeah.
• 15:33
  Well, we'll do a little verbal description. So
• 15:37
  as you're showing the picture for our audio listeners,
• 15:39
  describe what you're holding up. So this is not
• 15:42
  a completed, so usually what I do to make it
• 15:43
  a completed piece of flash to put my binders,
• 15:46
  I outline everything with like a black ink and
• 15:48
  put it in. So it's just the line work that you're
• 15:50
  seeing usually like I'll have painted or colored
• 15:53
  versions of things like on my iPad or as a physical
• 15:56
  painting. But if you try to stencil something
• 15:58
  with all that detail, it just creates a giant
• 16:00
  mess. So I can like show people for reference,
• 16:02
  but what they're usually looking through is like
• 16:04
  drawings So like imagine this but just black
• 16:07
  outline. This is a snake in the shape of a noose
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  I made this is perpetual chaos It's from years
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  ago. But uh, weirdly enough I tattooed this on
• 16:15
  a friend of mine and she didn't realized it was
• 16:17
  a news till we were done. Um, yeah, I was, I
• 16:20
  was, it took me a second to realize it was a
• 16:22
  news, but, um, that is, that is hot. That's the
• 16:28
  only thing I could think of. Yeah. Cause like,
• 16:30
  cause I guess I'm like thinking too much and
• 16:31
  trying to figure out the symbol behind it because
• 16:33
  like, sometimes it's just like fun shapes, you
• 16:36
  know, like I'm like, well, a snake could also
• 16:38
  do this. Okay. So there's no intentional meaning
• 16:40
  behind it because I see snake and I see news
• 16:43
  and I'm like, okay, these are both intense. vicious
• 16:48
  symbols of something. But you're just saying
• 16:52
  all it takes is just a little bit of imagination,
• 16:54
  playing around, doodling, and then you can come
• 16:55
  up with that, okay. A lot of the time, and I
• 16:57
  think I've talked to other artists that seem
• 16:59
  to share the same opinion, sometimes it's just
• 17:01
  it's not that deep. A lot of people have this
• 17:03
  idea that tattoos have to really, they all have
• 17:06
  to mean something, which is okay too. Everyone
• 17:08
  gets tattooed differently. you know, most of
• 17:11
  the time, like most of my tattoos, I'm like,
• 17:12
  well, I just thought it looked really fucking
• 17:14
  cool. Like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, the small
• 17:17
  things that mean something to me, but most of
• 17:18
  it, it's like, well, this shape looked really
• 17:20
  nice in this part of the anatomy, you know. Yeah,
• 17:22
  right, right. Well, all right. So where do we
• 17:27
  gradually get the confidence to open our own
• 17:30
  tattoo artistry business as you do have in Winooski
• 17:35
  here in Vermont? Yeah. Like how do we, how do
• 17:38
  we gradually go to like, all right, I'm going
• 17:41
  to, you know, go from myself to tattooing others
• 17:44
  and then, oh, I think I could like make money
• 17:47
  off of this, uh, get a place and, and, and do
• 17:50
  all that stuff. Where, where, where does all
• 17:52
  that confidence come from? So honestly, I think
• 17:54
  a big part of it was like, Like I said, I was
• 17:57
  so afraid to ever even try tattooing someone
• 17:59
  else. And I started drawing all this tattoo flash.
• 18:01
  I started like really trying to draw tattoos
• 18:03
  instead of just making art. And it was weird.
• 18:05
  It's like you have to unlearn and relearn to
• 18:07
  draw. Like I do mostly American traditional,
• 18:09
  which is a lot of simplified shapes. They just
• 18:11
  had to read really well as tattoos. And, you
• 18:13
  know, sailors back in the day didn't know how
• 18:15
  to draw for the most part. And that's why things
• 18:17
  are so simplified, but it's become its own style.
• 18:20
  Um, so I forgot that sailors, like that's, that's
• 18:22
  a thing. Yeah. Oh yeah. American traditional
• 18:25
  sailors. Are there still sailors? Cause I think
• 18:27
  sailors of like world war two time and they had
• 18:30
  the tattoos, but like, do you know the story
• 18:32
  of why sailors had tattoos? Was it just for artistry
• 18:34
  reasons or was it because it would like. for
• 18:37
  a symbol of their patriotism? Like, what was
• 18:39
  the whole story behind that, if you know? I think
• 18:41
  a lot of it had to do with just, you know, like
• 18:44
  the patriotism, the killing time was a lot of
• 18:47
  it too, I'm sure. Yeah. My neighbor, when I was
• 18:50
  a kid, was the first person I ever met with a
• 18:52
  tattoo in the flesh. And his name is John Soderbergh,
• 18:56
  and he... was he worked on submarines and he
• 18:59
  had this tattoo of a peace sign. By the time
• 19:02
  I met him, it was like this big, because you
• 19:03
  know, when you get older, your skin starts to
• 19:06
  sag and things shrink. And that was like such
• 19:09
  a political statement for him to have made at
• 19:11
  the time. You know, being in the Navy and getting
• 19:13
  a peace sign tattooed in like the 40s. Oh my
• 19:17
  god. Yeah, I wonder what the reaction was to
• 19:19
  that. I mean, because... He didn't really talk
• 19:22
  about it that much. I just knew that he had it.
• 19:24
  Um, you know, I was, I was a child in this app
• 19:26
  and I wish now I could go back and, you know,
• 19:28
  he says passed away, but I'm like, what, what
• 19:30
  was that like? Did people give you a shit for
• 19:32
  it? Were people on board? Like, I would imagine.
• 19:35
  Oh my goodness. Yeah. Um, yeah. So anyway, go
• 19:37
  back to the, the business of it all. Like starting
• 19:40
  that. Um, so, you know, uh, I was really from
• 19:44
  this place of like, oh, I don't know. And all
• 19:46
  my friends were like, seeing these things I was
• 19:47
  drawing and they're like, dude, I would let you
• 19:48
  tattoo me. You should do it. And I still wasn't
• 19:50
  super convinced. And honestly, I think it was
• 19:52
  a bunch of people doubting me that made me be
• 19:54
  like, well, well, no, I can do it if I want to.
• 19:57
  And like, in some part of my brain too was like,
• 20:00
  okay, I'm going to be more disappointed if I
• 20:02
  never try than if I do it and crash and burn.
• 20:04
  because I'd much rather be like, OK, that's how
• 20:07
  that went than wonder what if. Exactly. The what
• 20:10
  if that is always scary for me. That's usually
• 20:12
  what motivates me to to to take on challenges.
• 20:14
  And I remember even my literally my best friend,
• 20:17
  I was messaging her like talking about getting
• 20:19
  an apprenticeship and she was like, you know,
• 20:20
  like she was trying to be like helpful and she's
• 20:22
  like, I try to pursue it, too. It's one of the
• 20:24
  most heartbreaking things I've tried to do. It's
• 20:25
  extremely hard. Like, you know, I just wouldn't
• 20:27
  get all of your hopes set on it. I literally
• 20:30
  told her like, no, it's going to happen. I was
• 20:32
  like, I don't know how or when, but it's going
• 20:34
  to happen. How does the tattooing apprenticeship
• 20:36
  work? So in the state of Vermont, you have to
• 20:38
  work for a thousand hours under somebody. They
• 20:41
  need to have at least three years licensed, I
• 20:43
  think. The guy I was under had like 20 or 25,
• 20:47
  somewhere in that range. Years. Yes. So you'd
• 20:50
  been doing it a very long time. I also started
• 20:53
  working front desk at Yankee Tattoo, which is
• 20:55
  downtown. They are the oldest legal shop in Vermont.
• 20:58
  They became a thing in 1996. So before that,
• 21:01
  there was no regulation in the state. So there
• 21:03
  were shops, but they weren't legal tattoo shops.
• 21:06
  I'm confusing tattoo and marijuana legalization.
• 21:09
  So was there a time where it wasn't legal to
• 21:12
  do tattoos in Vermont? And when was that? Yeah.
• 21:15
  Technically, prior to 1996, it wasn't legal.
• 21:17
  Now, because of people fearing that, like, people
• 21:21
  would, like, be bloody and infected? Like, is
• 21:23
  that what it was, or? Well, so I think a lot
• 21:26
  of it was just, like, the unknown and the taboo
• 21:28
  of it. Like, tattoos have become so socially
• 21:30
  acceptable now, and honestly, like, late 90s,
• 21:32
  early 2000s is about when the tide started to
• 21:34
  shift. Before that, like, you know, even my dad,
• 21:37
  like, his understanding of tattoos is it was
• 21:39
  all people in the Navy or criminals. Um... Okay.
• 21:43
  So there was a big part that was that. And I
• 21:46
  know that, so Bill who owns Yankee was from the
• 21:51
  Boston area originally, and he worked for Philly
• 21:54
  Eddie out in Philadelphia who was like, he's
• 21:56
  a legend in his own right, he's a historical
• 21:58
  figure. And when he and his son opened up Yankee,
• 22:03
  they basically wrote all of the laws around tattooing
• 22:06
  as they exist now. Which are what? So basically
• 22:09
  like the regulation, like we have, inspections
• 22:12
  just like it's the same people in our state that
• 22:15
  do like inspections for restaurants and bars
• 22:17
  there's basically one guy that does the whole
• 22:18
  north of the state and then someone else who
• 22:21
  does the whole south end of the state um so basically
• 22:24
  you're required to like all of our floors have
• 22:25
  to be a wipeable surface you need to have a working
• 22:28
  running sink um you can't have like like animals
• 22:32
  in the shop um because all the health code stuff
• 22:36
  Oh yeah, cause animals could get into the products
• 22:38
  and. Well, the dander thing. That's one thing
• 22:41
  I tell my clients too is like, it's pretty hard
• 22:43
  actually to infect a tattoo unless you're being
• 22:46
  super careless, but pet dander will certainly
• 22:48
  mess one up. Right. Do you know of an instance
• 22:52
  where someone just had like a sheep or a dog
• 22:55
  come in and fuck things up and their business
• 22:58
  got shut down? You know, but I lived in Alabama
• 23:00
  for a while and I know shops that like have dogs
• 23:03
  around regularly and it's just, you know. And
• 23:05
  it's a lot in Alabama or it's not a lot, but
• 23:08
  they run free and rebellious there and they don't
• 23:10
  care. So every state has a different licensure,
• 23:15
  different board of health, different requirements.
• 23:17
  It's definitely a little more free and loose
• 23:19
  there, I would say. state is similar. Like some
• 23:21
  counties, it varies county by county in New York.
• 23:24
  So for example, I had to do one convention in
• 23:27
  like Saratoga and all they asked me for was to
• 23:30
  forward my Vermont license and my bloodborne
• 23:33
  pathogen certificate. And then I tattooed in
• 23:36
  Albany County and they wanted me to get a temporary
• 23:38
  license with their state. And then there's other
• 23:41
  states that don't even have a licensure. So technically
• 23:43
  there's no licensure in some parts of New York.
• 23:46
  Oh, so you could just like run free without you
• 23:48
  can just run it basically All right, so the apprenticeship
• 23:54
  sorry to go back to that like what does that
• 23:56
  consist of like? Someone Vermont a very state
• 23:59
  -by -state like a lot of regulations in Vermont.
• 24:02
  It's we have one of the more rigorous It's a
• 24:03
  thousand hours under someone which is the same
• 24:05
  time it takes to become an airline pilot in most
• 24:07
  of them Yeah, what do you do in those thousand
• 24:11
  hours? If you don't mind breaking it down, so
• 24:13
  it's a mix of things I had what people refer
• 24:16
  to as a traditional apprenticeship, which is
• 24:18
  you know how it's been since the dawn of like
• 24:21
  modern tattooing basically you are like like
• 24:24
  kind of like equal parts shop lackey and like
• 24:27
  you know, studying under this person. So that's
• 24:30
  part of it is you learn how like all of the day
• 24:32
  -to -day like cleaning everything. That's a big
• 24:34
  job that you get if you're an apprentice. You're
• 24:36
  usually doing all the cleaning. Depending on
• 24:39
  what shop you're at, you might do the booking
• 24:40
  for your mentor, like handling the whole schedule
• 24:43
  for everyone. You draw a lot. If you're not doing
• 24:46
  anything, you're drawing or painting. And then
• 24:49
  when I started, I was just tattooing my friends
• 24:51
  at first. So, you know, I had people that...
• 24:53
  were just buddies of mine that trusted me that
• 24:55
  would let me tattoo them and then I started expanding
• 24:57
  from there to like you know really small simple
• 25:00
  walk -in stuff like when my mentor decided that
• 25:02
  I was like capable of doing that um he basically
• 25:06
  told me it was up to me what I chose to take
• 25:08
  on and I stayed very conservative with like you
• 25:10
  know I wanted to do some simple stuff make sure
• 25:12
  I was really nailing that He basically told me,
• 25:14
  if you take on a portrait, week one, that's on
• 25:16
  you. And I was like, well, I won't be doing that.
• 25:20
  What defines a simple tattoo? Is it just like,
• 25:23
  oh, I want a sunflower on my arm. Like, it could
• 25:25
  just be as simple as that. So it's more like...
• 25:28
  the line quality and the design itself. So finer
• 25:32
  lines are harder to do. Bolder lines tend to
• 25:35
  be a little easier. So most of what I did, actually
• 25:38
  my lamp shade next to me is a great example.
• 25:40
  I made the set of stencils that are on people.
• 25:41
  Oh my God, that's so beautiful. Describe that
• 25:44
  for the listener, if you can. So in front of
• 25:47
  me is a lamp shade and I've decoupaged it with
• 25:50
  a bunch of... stencils from tattoos that I've
• 25:52
  done on people over the years. Can you describe
• 25:54
  some of the designs? They look so great. So right
• 25:56
  here we've got a traditional, American traditional
• 25:59
  dagger with a snake wrapped around it. That's
• 26:02
  on my buddy Nick. And then we've got Taz, the
• 26:04
  Tasmanian devil coming out of a tornado. That
• 26:06
  is on my friend Alex's elbow. Yeah. And then
• 26:08
  we've got a pinup girl with a bunch of tattoos
• 26:11
  that I've put on her smoking a cigarette. And
• 26:13
  that's on someone's thigh, pretty large. Then
• 26:16
  I got, where's Waldo hiding in here? That's so
• 26:19
  funny. Oh my God, I got a million questions for
• 26:22
  you and I'm trying to like do it one by one.
• 26:23
  I know. I'm sorry. I don't help with that. I
• 26:26
  have ADD. So I'm like, oh no. And I hate saying
• 26:29
  this, but I'm going to say it. I have undiagnosed
• 26:32
  ADD. I hate when people say that because it's
• 26:34
  like. No, but I understand. I think that on some
• 26:36
  level that's fair. Like it's only legitimate.
• 26:40
  When I told people I'm diagnosed, they're like,
• 26:41
  you didn't know? Yeah, no, I just feel like if
• 26:45
  it's not properly diagnosed, then don't even
• 26:48
  say anything. slippery slope with some of it,
• 26:51
  but. Right, right, right. But, oh, during the
• 26:55
  apprenticeship, did you find out a part of the
• 26:58
  tattooing business process that just became like
• 27:01
  very tedious and annoying? You're probably doing
• 27:03
  it right now, like for instance, the booking,
• 27:06
  like I would assume that the drawing and painting,
• 27:07
  you love it, but like, what is the most annoying
• 27:13
  about maintaining a tattoo business that you
• 27:15
  might've learned through the apprenticeship?
• 27:16
  You know, I guess, Yeah, sometimes the booking
• 27:19
  thing, like I'm pretty good at social media.
• 27:22
  I like talking to people. I was a bartender before
• 27:24
  all this. I just love people. So that part kind
• 27:26
  of came naturally to me, but there is a point
• 27:28
  where sometimes I just, it's like sometimes I
• 27:32
  think people have this idea. I hate to keep going
• 27:34
  back to because of the internet and modern times,
• 27:37
  but you know There's this whole thing of like
• 27:39
  you have 24 7 access to everyone now And I think
• 27:42
  some people forget that there's a human being
• 27:43
  on the other side and I'm not just like an Instagram
• 27:46
  presence So people will message me things that
• 27:48
  like to in the morning and like be annoyed that
• 27:50
  I didn't respond by like 6 a .m. And I'm like,
• 27:52
  I'm not awake those hours For the most part people
• 27:55
  are pretty cool about it. But those are one of
• 27:57
  the things like and then I'll have people that
• 27:59
  like By the way, I'm surprised with the bartender's
• 28:02
  schedule that you used to have that you're not
• 28:04
  awake at two in the morning, so... Oh, I think
• 28:06
  that's what made me not want to be awake at two
• 28:08
  in the morning, frankly. Oh, is the bartending
• 28:10
  hours? Because, like, I would imagine you get
• 28:12
  into work at, like, 4 p .m. and you're not home
• 28:15
  until, like, 3 a .m. or something like that?
• 28:16
  So, my whole apprenticeship, I maintained that
• 28:19
  as a full -time job on top of it. But I even
• 28:22
  did, like, morning kitchen prep on top of that
• 28:24
  for a while. And then those guys changed my schedule
• 28:26
  to six in the morning, and I was like, I literally
• 28:28
  can't do that. So where are you doing like normal
• 28:30
  daytime adult hours with the apprenticeship and
• 28:33
  then still working overnight with bartending?
• 28:35
  How are you still alive? I ask myself that a
• 28:39
  lot. I feel like it was a different person who
• 28:40
  went through all that because I do not have the
• 28:43
  tenacity now, I don't think. Yeah. So, okay.
• 28:46
  So when you decided to go into tattooing full
• 28:49
  time, you made it a point like, okay, I want
• 28:51
  to keep a normal daytime hours so I could like
• 28:53
  sleep and be a human being. Yeah. And, you know,
• 28:56
  my cat does not like me being out that late either.
• 28:58
  And I just, yeah, I get, I get tired now. How
• 29:01
  does your cat react if you're out too late? Does
• 29:03
  it like, you know? Oh, she's mad. I can hear
• 29:05
  her when I'm on my way up the stairs, behind
• 29:07
  the door, just meow, meow. What's your cat's
• 29:11
  name? She's got one of those scraggly meows.
• 29:13
  Yeah. What's your cat's name? Carol. Carol, yes.
• 29:16
  With an E or without an E at the end? You know,
• 29:18
  not with an E at the end, but that makes me think
• 29:20
  of Carole King now. Oh, by the way, Beautiful,
• 29:23
  the Carole King musical. If you haven't seen
• 29:25
  it on Broadway, if you're even into musicals,
• 29:28
  that's a great musical, so I would recommend
• 29:29
  that. I'll have to check it out. Musicals are
• 29:31
  like hit or miss for me. I'm kind of picky with
• 29:32
  them, but... Unrecognizable. Same here, same
• 29:35
  here. It is very easy to be annoyed and put off
• 29:37
  by a musical. Wow, I love doing my podcasts,
• 29:44
  but one of the hardest things is finding guests
• 29:48
  Every single week that I put out my podcast.
• 29:51
  I have this nightmare. Oh, no. Am I gonna run
• 29:54
  out? Cause let's be honest, you're starting a
• 29:56
  podcast and you may think, Oh, I'm going to invite
• 29:59
  my uncle Louie. I'm going to invite my best friend,
• 30:02
  Shae Shae. And then before you know it, it's
• 30:04
  your third weekend and you are running out of
• 30:06
  guest ideas. How about you sign up with a service
• 30:08
  like pod match where not only do they have a
• 30:12
  wide database of guests for you to choose from,
• 30:15
  you get paid to release interviews with said
• 30:19
  guests. Yeah. Pod match is just that awesome.
• 30:22
  They give you a commission for. Going into your
• 30:26
  three matches of the day. Yep. I said that every
• 30:30
  single day They give you three matches to choose
• 30:34
  from and they will get into your relevant interests
• 30:37
  You set up your profile You say what kind of
• 30:39
  podcast you do you say what kind of topics you're
• 30:41
  interested in and just like a dating matchmaking
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  service They will match you up as best as possible
• 30:46
  with the most relevant guests for your podcast
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  you show them proof that you did the interview
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  and Boom before you know it You see that money
• 30:55
  in your pocket. Sign up with PodMatch to both
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  make your guest search easier and also, well,
• 31:02
  you got some bills to pay. You can sign up with
• 31:04
  PodMatch using the link in my show notes. First
• 31:09
  person that you tattooed during your apprenticeship,
• 31:14
  how was that? Were you nervous? Did it go well?
• 31:17
  How was that? So the first person I actually
• 31:19
  tattooed in a shop during my apprenticeship was
• 31:22
  my business partner, Scotty. Um, yeah, it was
• 31:26
  literally the day my apprentice license came
• 31:28
  through. So you apply for an apprentice license
• 31:30
  first. Um, and mine came through on 420, not
• 31:33
  by design. I thought that was great. Um, so,
• 31:37
  you know, I show up at the shop and I'm doing
• 31:38
  my normal thing, like setting up and drawing
• 31:40
  and stuff. And, and then Scotty was kind of like,
• 31:42
  well, you got your apprentice license. He's like,
• 31:44
  so you're tattooing me today. And I was like,
• 31:47
  right now today? And I was like, what do you
• 31:50
  want? I had tattooed these chains on my own thigh
• 31:53
  in my apartment like a few weeks before. Don't
• 31:56
  do that. Don't tattoo yourself in your house,
• 31:58
  especially if you're looking for an apprenticeship.
• 32:00
  I lucked out anyway. Most people will turn you
• 32:02
  away if they know that you've been tattooing.
• 32:05
  Just because it's so hard to un -teach bad habits.
• 32:07
  Like most people want a clean slate. My mentor
• 32:09
  was not really like that. He was like, oh, you
• 32:11
  tattooed out of your house? That's a bonus. Not
• 32:13
  a good, I would not advise it. Anyway, I just
• 32:15
  had to feel like I had to throw that disclaimer
• 32:17
  in there. And he saw the chains and was like,
• 32:20
  I love that. And he wanted it on the backs of
• 32:21
  his wrists where everyone could see. And I was
• 32:24
  like, oh my God. So I think I drew them right
• 32:26
  on him. I'm pretty sure I used Sharpies. So my
• 32:28
  first tattoo was a drawn on beast. And that's
• 32:31
  like... And what kind of chains are these? These
• 32:33
  would be like, what, bite chains or like what?
• 32:35
  So like traditional tattoo chains. And try to
• 32:37
  see if I have a good example of it visible anywhere.
• 32:40
  Yeah. Yeah. It's just, it's like a really basic
• 32:42
  like picture, like a cartoon chain almost. I
• 32:46
  kind of look this up. It's hard to... It's just
• 32:48
  like a really basic traditional tattoo shape.
• 32:52
  So if I, if I type in a cartoon traditional chain
• 32:55
  tattoo, like pretty much everything that pops
• 32:57
  up, it's going to be the same style is what I'm
• 32:59
  talking about. Okay. Traditional chain. The only
• 33:01
  example I have, I have pants on and uh, Oh, wait,
• 33:06
  wait, wait. You said you had pants on. What was
• 33:08
  that? Oh, I said I have pants on. Um, so I can't
• 33:11
  show you the chains on my tie. Oh, okay. Okay.
• 33:13
  Okay. All right. Um, let's Let's see, yes. I
• 33:19
  know what you're talking about. Okay, yeah, yeah.
• 33:22
  There's all kinds, but I get the idea. Looks
• 33:25
  good, looks good. I mean, it looks like - Yeah,
• 33:26
  it's just like a single chain link we did kind
• 33:28
  of larger. So you can only do tattoos at a certain
• 33:30
  size or a certain level of detail. So the bigger
• 33:33
  and bolder, the easier that is usually. But I
• 33:36
  will say one thing in my own, respect to myself.
• 33:41
  A lot of people, when they first tattoo, do what
• 33:42
  we call scratching. There's two different things
• 33:45
  that scratching could mean. Scratchers refer
• 33:47
  to people attached to other houses or people
• 33:49
  that are just scraping the top of the skin because
• 33:52
  they're too nervous or don't know how to sink
• 33:53
  a line. And I did miss that phase. I never scratched
• 33:58
  at people. I at least sunk a line. So the whole
• 34:02
  time, though, I literally thought I was going
• 34:05
  to swallow my own tongue. Yeah, I would imagine.
• 34:08
  I was gagging and trying to hold it back. And
• 34:12
  I could tell I was shaking uncontrollably. But
• 34:15
  he still has them, and they still look good.
• 34:18
  And he was satisfied with them, I take it, if
• 34:20
  he still has them. For the whole time, I was
• 34:21
  like, oh, great. I was like, day one, I'm going
• 34:24
  to get fucking fired, because I'm going to fuck
• 34:25
  this up. How many years ago was this? Five years
• 34:30
  ago now. OK. So how long did it take you to graduate
• 34:34
  from apprenticeship to opening your own business?
• 34:36
  So I did the 1 ,000 hours in like a year and
• 34:39
  a half -ish, something like that. Yeah, they
• 34:42
  typically give you like a two -year time frame
• 34:44
  to do that thousand hours within Okay, and you
• 34:47
  open your own business. Can you remember the
• 34:49
  first tattoo that you did as you know? The official
• 34:52
  independent tattoo business owner that you are
• 34:54
  So I was at another shop in between and then
• 34:58
  we went from there and opened the business together
• 35:00
  me and my two business partners And we're basically
• 35:03
  we're all like separate businesses under the
• 35:05
  same roof essentially Um, the first tattoo in
• 35:08
  there was literally the day we got inspected
• 35:10
  and we all went way overboard and like did way
• 35:12
  more than we had to Um, so the guy showed up
• 35:15
  and we're all like anxious, you know, we've never
• 35:17
  had a space inspected like that. And he literally
• 35:20
  was like, well, you guys didn't have to do this
• 35:21
  or that, but that's a plus. And we're like, okay,
• 35:23
  cool. And then he's like, you know, I assumed
• 35:26
  there would be some like steps in between getting
• 35:28
  inspected and passing and stuff. And he's on
• 35:31
  his way out the door and I was like, hey, like,
• 35:32
  do we have to like wait for a certificate in
• 35:34
  the mail or something? And he's like, no, you
• 35:36
  can start right now if you want. So I called
• 35:39
  my best friend. It was like, get down here right
• 35:41
  now. And I was like, you're going to be the first
• 35:43
  tattoo in the shop. And I drawn this crazy, we
• 35:46
  call it a flip face. So it's like one face one
• 35:49
  way that looks like maybe it has a crazy hat
• 35:51
  or something and you flip the whole drawing and
• 35:53
  it's a second face. Oh my god. It's trippy. I'll
• 35:58
  have to find the picture and show you. Please
• 35:59
  do. Yeah, yeah, send it over. I did it on the
• 36:01
  back of her thigh and I did like this, like devil
• 36:04
  head and a panther. So you flip it one way and
• 36:06
  it's a panther and then you flip it the other
• 36:07
  way and it's like a devil head. What? So I did
• 36:10
  that down the entire back of her thigh. She did
• 36:13
  not enjoy the tattooing process, but it looks
• 36:16
  really good to this day. Yeah, good work, because
• 36:19
  of the pain or is it... It was the pain. And
• 36:22
  I think something happens too when you can't
• 36:24
  see where it's happening. Your brain's like,
• 36:26
  we can't see that, so it's gonna hurt more now
• 36:28
  because we could be in danger. I'm trying to
• 36:30
  picture how the flipping effect works on just
• 36:34
  like a leg as opposed to like, you know... what
• 36:37
  I think of special effects. Usually like an arm
• 36:40
  would be a good space for it. But I mean, she's
• 36:43
  acrobatic. She does a lot of yoga and stuff.
• 36:44
  So when she gets upside down, the whole thing
• 36:46
  flips. Oh, interesting. Favorite tattoo you've
• 36:50
  ever done, least favorite tattoo you've ever
• 36:52
  done. Oh, boy. I think to this day, my favorite
• 36:55
  tattoo I've ever done. God, almost every day
• 36:58
  it's like, well, the last one I just did was
• 37:00
  my favorite. But I think my standout favorite
• 37:02
  so far is this big, it was from my flash work.
• 37:04
  So it was a pre -drawn design someone picked
• 37:06
  and liked that I did. And I did it on a local
• 37:08
  hairdresser who does lovely work. But it's a
• 37:11
  big nun and she's taking a mirror selfie flashing
• 37:14
  her titty. And I did her real big on this lady's
• 37:18
  thigh and she just, I added a bunch of fun colors
• 37:21
  and it's really, I'm a big fan of her. I love
• 37:25
  that. What about Lee's favorite? Lee's favorite?
• 37:27
  My god, I've retired myself from tattooing bands
• 37:30
  on people so like when someone wants like a single
• 37:32
  band going around a limb It is deceptively difficult
• 37:36
  and people have this idea that it's easy to do
• 37:38
  because it looks straightforward stenciling it
• 37:42
  usually takes upwards of a fucking hour. You
• 37:45
  know, you have the cylindrical thing and you're
• 37:47
  trying to make a line that looks straight, that's
• 37:50
  incredibly difficult, and then tattooing it is
• 37:52
  a huge, huge pain in the ass. And the thinner
• 37:56
  that band is, the harder that is. And a lot of
• 37:58
  people have this misconception like... I've had
• 38:00
  people say to me, well, I just want a really
• 38:02
  thin band all the way around. And I'm like, that's
• 38:04
  not easy. That's so much harder than if you have
• 38:07
  even a little hiccup in a thin band. It's immediately
• 38:10
  noticeable. So if someone asks you to do a band,
• 38:12
  you're going to say no, go to someone else. I'm
• 38:14
  going to refer to them to one of my lovely coworkers
• 38:16
  who love to do a great job with them. I've established
• 38:19
  that I can, in fact, accomplish it. And that's
• 38:21
  enough for me. I'm good. Yeah. Oh my god. A tattoo
• 38:25
  that you wish you could show somebody, a tattoo
• 38:28
  that you have yourself, but you can't because
• 38:31
  it's in a very private area. Probably my boobs.
• 38:34
  I have like, the flames go all the way down my
• 38:36
  boobs and the way it moves with them is really
• 38:39
  cool. It's it's one of those things like and
• 38:45
  it feels in some level like I have a permanent
• 38:47
  like lacy bra top or something I'm definitely
• 38:50
  I'm guilty of being the naked neighbor And I've
• 38:52
  panicked about it before and then I'm like, well
• 38:54
  wait, my neighbors all probably think I'm wearing
• 38:56
  a fucking bra Like they can't see from that far
• 38:59
  away So any other creative endeavors that we
• 39:03
  have um, I still do a lot of painting I'm like
• 39:06
  in the middle of like three or four different
• 39:08
  paintings. Here's an acrylic painting of a crazy
• 39:11
  skeleton with a crown on. I'm gonna give him
• 39:13
  chain mail eventually. Oh my God, wait, wait,
• 39:16
  wait, wait, wait. Describe what that is, if you
• 39:20
  can. So it's like a, I always, when I do skulls,
• 39:24
  I always reference catacomb skulls, because they
• 39:27
  have these nice soft edges to them. Like when
• 39:30
  you look up regular skulls or like medical study
• 39:32
  skulls, they all look too clean and too sharp.
• 39:34
  It looks like a brand new skull. And I don't
• 39:37
  know, that's just not aesthetically pleasing
• 39:38
  when it's a brand new shiny skull. So. This is,
• 39:41
  like, kind of a nice, like, he's probably got
• 39:43
  some moss in there somewhere, you know? Like,
• 39:45
  an old skeleton. And he's got, like, a star for
• 39:49
  an eye in one of his sockets. And he's, I think
• 39:52
  I'm going to give him a gold tooth at some point,
• 39:54
  too, because I feel like when things have teeth,
• 39:55
  you ought to really give him a gold tooth. I
• 39:59
  got a shark on my belly. He's got a gold tooth.
• 40:02
  Oh my god, what is this? A shark Jesus. You have
• 40:06
  a shark Jesus on your belly. Jesus, but if he
• 40:10
  was a shark, basically. Oh, wait, wait, wait,
• 40:13
  wait, wait. Can you stand up and show that again?
• 40:15
  Because I just see like a regular... He's got
• 40:18
  like the crown of thorns and some hair. Oh, okay,
• 40:21
  okay. Because I just saw the shark and the yellow
• 40:22
  thing in the background. And then he's got a
• 40:24
  little gold tooth in there. Okay. Wow. Huh. My
• 40:28
  God, your creativity knows no limits when it
• 40:30
  comes to satsuma. I love this so much. Oh, God.
• 40:35
  I'm so glad we're having this conversation. And
• 40:38
  to think that we probably wouldn't be here if
• 40:42
  on one of my rides that I gave you, I didn't
• 40:47
  get stopped by a police officer while you were
• 40:48
  in the car. Oh, my God. Yeah. I felt so bad about
• 40:54
  it, but I was like... I'm going to say something.
• 40:57
  I got to fucking say something. And I appreciate
• 40:59
  it. I appreciate it. For our audience. So we
• 41:02
  were driving through a very busy construction
• 41:05
  zone in Winooski, Vermont this time of year.
• 41:09
  And unbeknownst to me, I still can't remember.
• 41:11
  I have bad memory. But an officer stopped me.
• 41:14
  He alleged that I was on my phone in a construction
• 41:17
  zone, which is typically not encouraged. I could
• 41:20
  have sworn that I was hands -free and had it.
• 41:22
  You were not on your phone. I was not on my phone.
• 41:25
  I was so mad when he was saying, because I was
• 41:26
  like, I've been in the backseat this whole fucking
• 41:28
  time. Yeah. I don't know. And I hate to say it
• 41:31
  like this, but I swear to God his tone shifted
• 41:33
  when he saw me in the backseat. Like, I think
• 41:35
  he thought you were alone. And then he was like...
• 41:38
  Wait, who is this passenger with you? What is
• 41:41
  going on? What's the story there? I was like,
• 41:42
  hello, I'm a witness. But he still gave me a
• 41:47
  ticket, even though I don't... That part I couldn't
• 41:49
  believe, honestly. Like, when he was like, well,
• 41:51
  and he's like, well, I'll knock off the construction
• 41:53
  zone up charge, but I'm still... gonna ticket
• 41:54
  you. Yeah, it is what it is. I paid it. I'm a
• 41:58
  little biased with cops. I can be a little a
• 42:00
  little. No, no, I get it. I get it. I get it.
• 42:03
  Sometimes sometimes cops can be hard to deal
• 42:07
  with. But yeah, so we just sort of bonded over
• 42:14
  that incident after the cop left us. And ever
• 42:18
  since, it's just been great talking to you whenever
• 42:20
  you have requested rides. And by the way, thank
• 42:25
  you. I remember there was one particular time
• 42:28
  where I was talking to my sister Natalie on the
• 42:29
  phone about some life stuff and some family stuff.
• 42:31
  And I was like, excuse me, I got to continue
• 42:33
  this conversation. And I felt bad, but I had
• 42:36
  a... Oh, no, it's honestly like... when something
• 42:38
  like that's like, I'm answering fucking client
• 42:40
  messages on my phone anyway. If you're like me,
• 42:45
  when you first heard about podcasting, you were
• 42:47
  like, okay, how do I get it everywhere where
• 42:50
  people listen to podcasts, Apple, Spotify, Amazon
• 42:53
  music? Oh my goodness, I have to go to each website
• 42:55
  and, you know, sign up with a form to make sure
• 42:57
  the podcast is available there. No, no, no, no,
• 42:59
  no, no, no, no, no. It is. Uh, the 21st century
• 43:04
  and yes, podcasting started also in the 21st
• 43:07
  century, but you know what I mean? We're like
• 43:09
  so into the 21st century where podcasting has
• 43:12
  evolved to a point where you can just go to one
• 43:15
  single source, put your audio video files there,
• 43:19
  and then it'll just automatically distribute
• 43:22
  to all the major platforms, your Apple, your
• 43:24
  Spotify, your Amazon, your YouTube. And that
• 43:27
  perfect podcast hosting provider is. RSS. With
• 43:31
  just a single click, you'll get your podcasts
• 43:33
  everywhere. People listen to podcasts and watch
• 43:36
  your career soar. Sign up today with RSS using
• 43:39
  the link in my show notes. I do have three delicious
• 43:45
  questions I have to ask you that I ask all my
• 43:47
  guests. What is a delicious meal that you've
• 43:51
  had lately? Oh, so I took a trip to Chicago about
• 43:55
  a month and a half ago. And I never had a real
• 43:59
  deep -dish pizza. And, uh... It's a divisive
• 44:01
  thing, and that's with the sauce on the outside
• 44:03
  and the cheese on the inside? Is that how that
• 44:05
  works? Yes. So, I did a bunch of, like, um, reading
• 44:08
  up on it, because I'm like that. Like, I just...
• 44:12
  I was like, okay, how does, I need the consensus
• 44:14
  on where to get one from, because there's a lot
• 44:16
  of places. And then I was like, and how does
• 44:18
  everyone order them? Because there's a bunch
• 44:19
  of options for how you order it. You can get
• 44:21
  it cut or uncut, and that's an option. So you
• 44:23
  see them across the board, all these places,
• 44:25
  you can get them cut or uncut, extra crispy or
• 44:27
  not. butter crust or not, and then with like
• 44:31
  a side of tomato, basically. So I was like, I
• 44:33
  need everyone's rundown. So I like spent like
• 44:35
  a couple hours reading random fucking reviews
• 44:37
  and stuff and hot takes on Reddit of people that
• 44:40
  are from the area. So I knew when I got there,
• 44:43
  I needed butter crust, well done, uncut. And
• 44:48
  I was stoned out of my mind in this really, really
• 44:51
  weird, really cool bed and breakfast I found
• 44:53
  out near Wicker Park. So I got it from, oh my
• 44:58
  gosh, of course I'm forgetting the name of this
• 44:59
  place now. Anyway, it was delightful. I FaceTimed
• 45:02
  my dad and took a bite of it and he was just
• 45:05
  kind of like, oh! And I was like, really, I think
• 45:07
  it was too much for what he was, I think he was
• 45:10
  a little high and not expecting a whole diet
• 45:11
  drive on deep dish pizza. So it was uncut. Wait,
• 45:16
  describe the specific type of deep dish pizza
• 45:18
  that you got. So I got like a personal size one
• 45:20
  because I was traveling so low and I definitely
• 45:22
  could not. I had a smorgasbord that evening.
• 45:25
  So it's like this little, like the sauce is on
• 45:29
  top of the cheese and there's like a layer of
• 45:31
  cheese under it. And then the crust like. I'm
• 45:34
  trying to think of how to describe it. It's almost
• 45:35
  like, you know, like British pies, like they
• 45:38
  do like the fucking crusty crust, like extra
• 45:40
  crusty. I don't know if that makes sense, but
• 45:42
  like, you know, when you use like lard or butter
• 45:44
  in a crust and it's got that flaky quality, it's
• 45:48
  not like, we have like a really fluffy interior,
• 45:51
  crusty exterior kind of pizza dough around here.
• 45:53
  Like, you know, New York style or whatever you
• 45:56
  want to call it. But the deep dish was totally
• 45:58
  different. And describe how it felt, how it tasted
• 46:03
  compared to a normal pizza. I got a little freaked
• 46:08
  out by the sauce flip, but honestly, I like the
• 46:11
  brown crusty cheese top on regular pizza, but
• 46:15
  I like the trade -off of having the sauce over
• 46:17
  the top because it kept it nice and melty. You
• 46:19
  get a really nice cheese pull in every bite,
• 46:21
  pretty much. Yeah, and then if you get it not
• 46:25
  precut, it holds everything together nicely for
• 46:27
  you. and the extra well done for the crust is
• 46:32
  nice. It got like this golden brown. It's almost
• 46:33
  like a savory shortbread, if you will. All right.
• 46:36
  What brought you to Chicago? So, I went out to
• 46:40
  see a band called Failure. I don't know if you're
• 46:42
  familiar with them. No. What kind of music? They're
• 46:44
  a 90s band. They came out right around, you know,
• 46:48
  grunge heroes. So people kind of lumped them
• 46:49
  in with the whole grunge thing, but they're not
• 46:51
  really a grunge band. They have this album called
• 46:54
  Fantastic Planet. It's like this old animated
• 46:57
  movie from the 60s. It's trippy as hell. If you
• 47:00
  haven't seen it, it's really cool. But they named
• 47:02
  their album after that. And it's just like space
• 47:05
  rock. It's this like 90s space Odyssey anthem
• 47:10
  album. And it's amazing. And Steve Albini produced
• 47:13
  a couple of their later albums. And he's one
• 47:15
  of my favorite producers of all time. He produced
• 47:17
  Nirvana. He produced like, I mean, a shitload
• 47:20
  of bands. I can just, if you look up some of
• 47:22
  his accolades, it's just. And he has a distinct
• 47:27
  sound. Like everything that he had a hand in,
• 47:29
  you can kind of tell it has this almost edge
• 47:31
  to it. Like the guitar tone and just everything
• 47:34
  unifying it. So, you know, I'm a big nerd for
• 47:36
  that stuff anyway. My husband passed away back
• 47:39
  in March. which was, you know, sudden, crazy,
• 47:43
  and we had planned this trip together, and it
• 47:46
  was the last trip we like, we used to travel
• 47:47
  together a lot, and it was the last thing we
• 47:49
  fully planned, and I was really on the fence
• 47:52
  about going for a while, but then I was like,
• 47:54
  I should just go. Like, you know, that's what
• 47:57
  he would have wanted. He was a big fan of saying,
• 47:59
  like, he was a huge music freak. My wall here,
• 48:02
  if you look, there's a lot of one big holiday
• 48:05
  posters. That's for the band My Morning Jacket.
• 48:07
  He went to their thing in Mexico every year that
• 48:10
  they did it. And he would say, music is medicine.
• 48:13
  He said, the money will come back, music is medicine.
• 48:16
  Those were two of his big things. And I just
• 48:19
  kept hearing that in my head over and over, and
• 48:21
  I really didn't know if I was gonna do it until
• 48:22
  about two weeks before. And then I was like,
• 48:24
  fuck it, I'm going. And I'm so glad I did. And
• 48:27
  it was a good experience. I'm glad that you went,
• 48:29
  yeah. Yeah, that's because it kind of bleeds
• 48:32
  into one of our questions here, but I'll let
• 48:34
  you. No, no, no, it's okay. You had a word that
• 48:38
  I've heard before, but I don't know the meaning
• 48:40
  of. You had mentioned a smorgasbord? Yeah, smorgasbord.
• 48:44
  What is that? So... I can't remember if it's
• 48:49
  Swedish. I think it's a Swedish term, but it's
• 48:51
  to have like a whole selection of foods, basically.
• 48:54
  A smorgasbord is like a big selection of different,
• 48:56
  it's almost like their version of tapas in my
• 48:58
  mind. Which is, if you don't know Spanish, small
• 49:02
  plates, like they have restaurants that are all
• 49:04
  tapas restaurants, you can get little plates
• 49:05
  to share with friends. Smorgasbord is kind of
• 49:07
  like that, I think. All right. So the next question
• 49:12
  you said that we could bleed into, is that the
• 49:14
  pop culture one or the thing one? The delicious
• 49:18
  moment one. Oh, okay. Okay. So let's screw around
• 49:21
  with the order a little bit. Usually we do pop
• 49:24
  culture next, but for you I will do this one
• 49:27
  as the second one. So what is the delicious thing
• 49:28
  that's happened in your life lately? So when
• 49:30
  I went on that trip, like I mentioned, my husband
• 49:33
  was like, he was, I tend to be very guarded with
• 49:35
  my emotions. I've just always kind of like, my
• 49:37
  dad and I call it Spock brain. Like we just,
• 49:41
  whenever anything crazy happens, it's like my,
• 49:43
  it's not a choice. Like my emotions just kind
• 49:45
  of shut off temporarily and I just do what. needs
• 49:47
  to be done, and then I deal with it later when
• 49:48
  it's safe. A spot from Star Trek? Yeah. Okay.
• 49:53
  He's known as... He's just very analytical, very
• 49:55
  like... Okay, yeah, yeah. Known as a very party
• 49:56
  person. And I circle back to the point where
• 49:58
  I'm like a real human and feeling emotions, but
• 50:00
  it just kind of does that sometimes. And I've
• 50:02
  always just been kind of guarded with that stuff.
• 50:03
  And my husband, Perry, was really big at like...
• 50:07
  He was a happy crier. Like, he was not shy with
• 50:10
  the happy tears all the time. Anytime we were
• 50:12
  like at a show, I'd spin around at some point
• 50:14
  and never they need to be... streaming and you
• 50:18
  know it was always it was just very funny it's
• 50:20
  very endearing um and i just i've never really
• 50:22
  been like that and it's you know not a thing
• 50:24
  that i'd ever really judged about him or anything
• 50:26
  i was just like oh that's really like i love
• 50:27
  that he's able to do that um and when i went
• 50:31
  to the show uh It was a band, you know, I've
• 50:34
  listened to them for half of my life, which I
• 50:36
  didn't realize fully till I was like walking
• 50:38
  into the venue and I was like, I've loved this
• 50:40
  album since I was 15. They played, he and I had
• 50:45
  a song in theirs that we really liked. It's called
• 50:47
  Stuck On You and the chorus is stuck on you till
• 50:49
  the end of time. And they played that and I was
• 50:53
  bawling. And it wasn't even like, you know, it
• 50:55
  started as like a sad thing. So I was like, damn,
• 50:57
  you know, like you should be here. But then it
• 50:58
  just went to like, you know, the moment. and
• 51:01
  hearing this thing that I had listened to during
• 51:04
  countless hours of making art, riding the fucking
• 51:06
  school bus. It's been like 15 fucking years of
• 51:10
  listening to this album and that song over and
• 51:13
  over and over. And I just, in that moment, was
• 51:15
  kind of like, there's nothing really freeing.
• 51:18
  I was mortified for a second, but then just like,
• 51:21
  he would love this. I could almost feel him standing
• 51:23
  next to me like, look at you, like. Being emotional
• 51:27
  in public, you're being vulnerable. Stuck on
• 51:30
  you from, what's the band called? Failure. Failure,
• 51:34
  okay, all right. They're incredible. That album,
• 51:37
  Fantastic Planet is just start to finish. Amazing.
• 51:40
  Yeah, yeah. That is pretty much a big part of
• 51:44
  what connects people to music. It's not just
• 51:47
  how it - sounds, but like what memories in their
• 51:51
  life they can form in association with the music.
• 51:54
  So I totally get what you mean there. What is
• 51:57
  a delicious pop culture obsession that you have
• 51:59
  at the moment? Oh, man. So I guess really I'm,
• 52:05
  I went two ways with this. I'm obsessed with
• 52:08
  true crime. So that's a big thing. Okay. You
• 52:11
  strike me as someone that might be obsessed with
• 52:13
  true crime. I can see that. Yeah, you know, it
• 52:15
  kind of goes hand in hand. I feel like a lot
• 52:17
  of other tattooers, we're all kind of morbid.
• 52:19
  I mean, we deal with, like, a lot of, like, heavy
• 52:21
  stuff in people's bodies. Right. But, you know,
• 52:25
  there's, like, there's been some crazy, again,
• 52:27
  coming back to the age of the internet and TikTok
• 52:29
  and all that stuff. It's just so much more accessible
• 52:31
  now. Like, can you imagine what kind of numbers,
• 52:34
  like... If we could read Ted Bundy's texts, if
• 52:36
  he had been texting people. Yeah, that would,
• 52:40
  Ted Bundy in the social media age would frighten
• 52:43
  me and maybe intrigue me at the same time. Yeah.
• 52:47
  Well, and it's like now, you know, like the whole
• 52:49
  Mackenzie Sharilla case. I don't know if you're
• 52:50
  familiar with that. Please tell me more. I'm
• 52:52
  not. Oh my God. She, it's a whole rabbit hole.
• 52:55
  And it's one of those things where like, I'm
• 52:57
  very interested in like, like court stuff too.
• 53:00
  Like just, like all these like. murder trials
• 53:03
  and shit. And when I first heard about the case
• 53:06
  I was like well they must have had some substantial
• 53:08
  evidence because the case basically is that this
• 53:11
  girl she was 17 I think at the time this happened
• 53:13
  so not even quite legally an adult but she had
• 53:17
  been driving recklessly and like recording herself
• 53:19
  doing it. repeatedly for her TikTok, you know,
• 53:22
  like smoking and driving, like to add her phone
• 53:24
  up. But then she was driving home with her boyfriend
• 53:27
  and their friend. Her friend was in the back
• 53:29
  seat. Her boyfriend was the passenger. And she,
• 53:31
  for some reason, you know, drove a hundred miles
• 53:35
  an hour without ever tapping the brakes and slammed
• 53:37
  them into a wall, killed the friend and the boyfriend
• 53:39
  on impact. And she survived. Wow. So when they
• 53:43
  were able to charge her with murder, I was like,
• 53:45
  well, they must have had substantial evidence.
• 53:47
  There's you can't. That's not like Uh, um, what's
• 53:51
  the word I'm looking for here? That's not a like,
• 53:53
  well, there's no empirical evidence. Like you
• 53:55
  can't just try someone on hearsay or like what
• 53:59
  ifs. Yeah. I assume the cops show up. They find
• 54:02
  her in the driver's seat. Two other people. Yeah.
• 54:04
  And then they asked her what happened. She repeatedly
• 54:06
  said she didn't know. But then when they got
• 54:08
  like, you can get information from a vehicle,
• 54:10
  even if it's total, she almost flipped the car
• 54:11
  in half. She had to get the building so hard.
• 54:14
  And then they found evidence she'd been doing
• 54:15
  dry runs of the route she took. What are dry
• 54:19
  runs? So in the weeks before she like took her
• 54:22
  car out there and drove the exact path Repeatedly
• 54:24
  and it's by accounts from local police officers
• 54:27
  that route route in particular That roads not
• 54:30
  perfectly straight and you would have to like
• 54:32
  be steering actively to stay on the path that
• 54:35
  she was on Yeah, so she tried to claim there
• 54:37
  was some sort of medical event and that she was
• 54:39
  unconscious or unaware But they're like, well,
• 54:41
  how do you mean maintain control of the vehicle
• 54:43
  at a hundred miles an hour? So And then the dry
• 54:48
  run thing, and they're like, well, why were you
• 54:49
  coming out here and doing this exact route repeatedly
• 54:52
  before the accident? And she was drunk when this
• 54:55
  incident happened? No, that's the other thing
• 54:57
  is they took blood because I don't think she
• 55:01
  was able to. do a breathalyzer, I think she was
• 55:03
  unconscious. But they took a blood draw and they
• 55:06
  found no THC, no alcohol. She tried to claim
• 55:09
  she had mushrooms on her at one point. And mushrooms
• 55:12
  are, you know, like that's a little harder to
• 55:14
  pick up on in any sort of test. But they did
• 55:16
  do a blood test and specifically search for that
• 55:19
  and nothing. She was just very distracted on
• 55:21
  her phone, driving at 100 miles an hour, just
• 55:23
  not giving a shit. So that's the thing is I don't
• 55:26
  know how distracted she could have been if she
• 55:28
  was maintaining control of the vehicle at that
• 55:30
  speed. Right, right. And the police officers
• 55:32
  and the, I mean, she also waived her right to
• 55:35
  a jury trial, which was a crazy move. Um, I think
• 55:38
  if there had been a jury trial, she would have
• 55:40
  stood a fair chance of being acquitted. Um, but
• 55:43
  she chose like to just have basically the judge
• 55:45
  be the deciding factor and they were presented
• 55:47
  with all the evidence and then all the videos
• 55:49
  she took of herself and they put her away. Damn.
• 55:54
  As they should, as they should. Yes. So, I mean,
• 55:57
  where do we go for a case like that? I mean,
• 55:59
  is it just like that story that you described,
• 56:01
  or is there more to the aftermath of it? Like,
• 56:03
  where do we go from there? Well, so there's like,
• 56:05
  if you look up her name on TikTok, it is everywhere.
• 56:08
  Um, and I mean, it's, so like I said with the
• 56:10
  Ted Bundy text thing, all of her text messages
• 56:12
  are public record. Yeah, so they they posted
• 56:15
  like there's a whole like Google Drive someone
• 56:17
  created of like everything that they had and
• 56:19
  it's her text between her and her best friend
• 56:20
  the text between her and the boyfriend that she
• 56:22
  killed and it's oh my god and then from prison
• 56:25
  she because they record everyone's phone calls
• 56:27
  obviously you're in prison like why on earth
• 56:29
  would you expect privacy um and she and her mother
• 56:31
  have been talking on the phone and all those
• 56:33
  recordings are getting leaked and it's like egregious
• 56:36
  they have like a secret language they speak to
• 56:38
  each other in gonna give me an example of the
• 56:41
  secret language what were they saying Oh, so
• 56:44
  her mom says it's Carney speak. That's what they're
• 56:46
  calling it. And it's like they switch around.
• 56:49
  It's almost like Pig Latin, but more complicated.
• 56:52
  Like I can't understand it like at all. Even
• 56:54
  after they explained how it's broken down, I'm
• 56:56
  like, I don't know how you guys are figuring
• 56:57
  this out. So yeah, there's that. And she was
• 57:00
  doing it in front of the cops. and they have
• 57:03
  a recording of that too and someone broke it
• 57:05
  down and she's literally asking her mom, can
• 57:07
  we just ask them if they can just take my license
• 57:08
  for 10 years or something? Yeah. So it's like
• 57:10
  she already, and this was like out the gate before
• 57:12
  any charges were being brought up, she already
• 57:15
  had some presumption of guilt in her mind if
• 57:18
  she's asking, can't they just take my license?
• 57:20
  Like, if you really had a medical crisis and
• 57:22
  it was truly a crazy accident, why would you...
• 57:26
  Why your license taken away? Yeah. Like, already
• 57:31
  trying to make herself a plea bargain from her
• 57:33
  hospital bed. Yeah. Oh, God. If only we weren't
• 57:37
  in the age of phones and social media where everything
• 57:40
  could easily become a matter of public record.
• 57:42
  She probably could have gotten away with it.
• 57:43
  Oh, that's what's so crazy. Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah,
• 57:47
  no, Ted Bundy, that is always going to be a disturbing
• 57:51
  and kind of hilarious story. Yeah, well, it's
• 57:55
  just the series of blunders by the police. Oh,
• 57:58
  yeah. Oh, my God. I think what sticks out to
• 58:00
  me, and I remember watching it, it was that docu
• 58:04
  -series that was big on Netflix a while ago,
• 58:06
  Confessions of a Zero Killer or whatever. Yeah,
• 58:08
  yeah, yeah. And I watched it twice, one on my
• 58:10
  own and the other with my brother. And I couldn't
• 58:12
  wait to watch it the second time with my brother
• 58:14
  because I really wanted to pinpoint the part
• 58:16
  where I believe Ted Bundy was in a library and
• 58:20
  he was left there unsupervised and he escapes
• 58:23
  out the window, out of the prison library. And
• 58:26
  it's like... Who thought it was a great idea
• 58:30
  to just leave him there unsupervised? I don't
• 58:32
  know. I mean, call it him being on good behavior,
• 58:35
  call it white male privilege. I don't know, but
• 58:37
  like... Well, and people really love to hang
• 58:39
  their hat on this idea that Ted Bundy was just
• 58:41
  so smart and so charming, right? Like, that's
• 58:43
  what you hear over and over and over. That's
• 58:45
  not fucking true. A lot of it was unfortunately
• 58:48
  like, you know, I think what you just said, white
• 58:50
  male privilege. Um, and you know, by all accounts
• 58:53
  from people who grew up around him, he was not
• 58:55
  charming or attractive. I mean, you look at pictures
• 58:57
  of the guy from the wrong angle and you're like,
• 58:59
  oh my God. Um, it's like, um, people say that
• 59:03
  about Richard Ramirez, the night stalker, but
• 59:05
  the image everyone knows of him, you know, the
• 59:06
  handsome young man with the nice white teeth.
• 59:09
  He had those installed for his trial because
• 59:11
  his teeth were actually like really rotten and
• 59:14
  fucked up and he looked. He looked evil. His
• 59:16
  counsel said he looked evil, so they needed to
• 59:18
  do something if they stood a chance in trial.
• 59:21
  And his victim said that he smelled like wet
• 59:22
  leather. Ew. The night stalker smelled like wet
• 59:25
  leather. Yes. Yeah. What does wet leather smell
• 59:27
  like? I imagine like a dog, but worse. Um, okay.
• 59:33
  All right. All right. Like a wet dog, but worse
• 59:35
  or just a dog in general. Dogs in general smell
• 59:38
  nice for the most part. You know, I love dogs
• 59:40
  when they get wet. They don't smell great. It's
• 59:44
  a very particular smell. Okay. Um, so when you
• 59:47
  say when people, so when people get to know Ted
• 59:50
  Bundy, they realize him for the creep that he
• 59:52
  is. But I think what the documentary kept saying
• 59:55
  is it like when like the college age women that
• 59:58
  he, that he frequently killed. Was it, like,
• 1:00:02
  at first impression? They saw his looks, they
• 1:00:04
  saw his opening charming lines, and they got
• 1:00:06
  this impression that he was a charming, handsome
• 1:00:08
  gentleman, and then once you get to know him,
• 1:00:10
  he becomes a creep, like... So I think a lot
• 1:00:12
  of it was trickery, because he used to do shit
• 1:00:14
  all the time, like, um, he'd put, like, a cast
• 1:00:17
  on his arm or whatever, right? Like, he'd pretend
• 1:00:18
  to be injured and prey on women that he thought
• 1:00:21
  would be kind enough to help him, like... loading
• 1:00:24
  furniture into the car, bringing his books back
• 1:00:26
  to his car, because he frequently would hang
• 1:00:27
  out at the library on, forget what campus he
• 1:00:30
  was on, but he went to college somewhere near
• 1:00:32
  Seattle. But he would hang out there. And I can't
• 1:00:36
  remember which friend of mine it was in high
• 1:00:37
  school, but their mother was almost picked up
• 1:00:39
  by Bundy. And she got so freaked out. He was
• 1:00:41
  doing the guys with the cast and tried to get
• 1:00:44
  her to help put something in his car. And she
• 1:00:46
  got freaked out and said, no. But he would literally
• 1:00:49
  just approach her. I think it's like, it's like,
• 1:00:51
  um, the same thing that scam callers try to do
• 1:00:54
  where it's like a time limit to like pressure
• 1:00:55
  you so you don't have time to think about it.
• 1:00:57
  Like, well, you got, are you going to help me
• 1:00:58
  or not? Your mother almost got picked up by Ted
• 1:01:02
  Bundy. No, my friend's mother. Oh, I'm sorry
• 1:01:04
  your friend's mother. I'm sorry. I talk really
• 1:01:07
  fast No, no, no, no, it's okay. Um, so The friend's
• 1:01:10
  mother was this before the friend existed in
• 1:01:13
  the world or was this one a friend before the
• 1:01:14
  friend existed? I also got to see his car Ted
• 1:01:25
  Bundy's car. They have it at a museum in Pigeon
• 1:01:27
  Forge, Tennessee Why I don't know They had a
• 1:01:32
  bunch of different serial killer things. It's
• 1:01:36
  like I feel so weird on some tokens. I don't
• 1:01:39
  want to monetize any of it or glorify it. But
• 1:01:42
  at the same time, it's fascinating. Here's the
• 1:01:45
  head and the brain and the finger that Jeffrey
• 1:01:47
  Dahmer was playing around with at the Smithsonian.
• 1:01:50
  It's just like, why do we need to save that?
• 1:01:53
  It's like the Mütter Museum. They're now talking
• 1:01:55
  about doing away with that because, I mean, they
• 1:01:58
  have no way of vetting all of the... They have
• 1:02:00
  hundreds of... people's skulls in there. The
• 1:02:03
  what museum? The Mütter Museum. It's in Philadelphia.
• 1:02:06
  How do you spell that? M -U with an umlaut, T
• 1:02:10
  -T -E -R. Is that named after a serial killer?
• 1:02:14
  It was a doctor. Yeah, that sounds like it should
• 1:02:16
  be a serial killer, right? Yeah. It was a doctor
• 1:02:18
  in the 1900s. And he, when he passed away, donated
• 1:02:22
  his collection. to the city. And his only thing
• 1:02:26
  was that he wanted it to be displayed for the
• 1:02:27
  public for educational purposes in a fireproofed
• 1:02:30
  building. So there it is that since I want to
• 1:02:32
  say like maybe the 20s. Okay, so I guess that
• 1:02:34
  makes sense because it was a doctor that had
• 1:02:37
  killed people and he wanted to do it. Well, the
• 1:02:39
  thing is, we don't have any way of verifying
• 1:02:41
  where some of these bodies and specimens came
• 1:02:44
  from. Really? Like there is such limited records
• 1:02:47
  from the time period that he was doing all of
• 1:02:50
  this in. And, like, you know, when you go in,
• 1:02:52
  like, some of them have names and dates attached.
• 1:02:53
  Like, they have a whole wall of people's skulls.
• 1:02:55
  And it'll tell you, like, how they died and shit.
• 1:02:58
  But then there's some that, like, he was clearly
• 1:02:59
  collecting things from, like, different countries,
• 1:03:01
  from different centuries and stuff like that.
• 1:03:03
  So we have no way of knowing, like, how he sourced
• 1:03:07
  some of these things. And there's even now, when
• 1:03:09
  you go in, there's signs on some of the glass
• 1:03:11
  talking about the ethics of... having people
• 1:03:14
  that didn't necessarily consent to having their
• 1:03:16
  mortal remains propped up forever. Okay. All
• 1:03:19
  right. I think I'm trying. So I thought you were
• 1:03:22
  saying that, uh, here's this doctor who said,
• 1:03:27
  okay, when I die, like donate my shit to this
• 1:03:30
  museum, all my body parts and stuff like that.
• 1:03:32
  But you're saying that someone who died and did
• 1:03:36
  not consent to their body parts being put up
• 1:03:38
  in a museum, got their body parts put up in a
• 1:03:40
  museum by someone else. Yeah. Yeah. Cause as
• 1:03:42
  he had like all of these, all these corpses and
• 1:03:46
  different specimens, but yeah, some of them you
• 1:03:48
  really, cause he, he was alive up until like
• 1:03:51
  the early twenties. So there's no way to like
• 1:03:54
  verify most of where these came from. Gotcha.
• 1:03:57
  Wow. Oh my God. So much interesting discussion.
• 1:04:02
  Tattoos, serial killers, body parts being donated
• 1:04:05
  to a museum without the person's consent. I mean,
• 1:04:08
  we covered the gamut. Yeah. This was wonderful.
• 1:04:14
  How can people follow you if they want to make
• 1:04:17
  a visit to the lovely town of Winooski in greater
• 1:04:20
  Burlington area of Vermont to get a tattoo by
• 1:04:23
  you? Well, you can go right ahead and follow
• 1:04:25
  me on Instagram. It's GetDarned. G -E -T -D -A
• 1:04:30
  -R -N -E -D. That or I'm on Facebook under Stardarned.
• 1:04:35
  Those are pretty much my social media. Sometimes
• 1:04:37
  I bop around on TikTok, but I don't really post
• 1:04:39
  on there. All right. Is it at get darned on TikTok
• 1:04:42
  too? I'm pretty sure it is. See, that's what
• 1:04:44
  I don't even know what my username is on there.
• 1:04:46
  That's okay. That's okay. Some people even forget
• 1:04:49
  that they had a TikTok. Instagram's kind of the
• 1:04:51
  move. Nope. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing
• 1:04:54
  wrong with that. Um, yeah, no, some people, uh,
• 1:04:57
  I talked to about their TikTok and they're like,
• 1:04:58
  Oh yeah, I totally forgot. I had a TikTok established
• 1:05:00
  like two years ago and I only have like two followers
• 1:05:03
  and you know, whatever. I've never posted any
• 1:05:05
  videos. I resisted it for so long and I was like,
• 1:05:08
  but there's kind of cool stuff that gets posted
• 1:05:09
  there. Oh yeah. I would imagine in the tattoo
• 1:05:12
  artistry world, it runs wild on TikTok. So. Oh
• 1:05:15
  yeah. Well, there's all sorts of, you know, just
• 1:05:16
  like, like I mentioned with the true crime, the
• 1:05:18
  people throwing texts up and like outing so -and
• 1:05:21
  -so. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. Wow. star,
• 1:05:25
  um, usually I say to guests like, Hey, like hope
• 1:05:28
  to have you on the podcast sometime. And either
• 1:05:31
  they come on again in a few months to a year,
• 1:05:35
  or I never see him again. But with you, it's
• 1:05:36
  more so like, Oh, I guess I'll see you whenever
• 1:05:39
  you need a ride, whatever you need an Uber or
• 1:05:43
  Lyft ride. And I happen to be online. There you
• 1:05:45
  go. That's probably the next time I'll see you.
• 1:05:48
  Hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. And for all
• 1:05:51
  of you listening and watching let's deliciousness.
• 1:05:53
  ring.