Latest / onefjef / Addiction, Guatemala & Whole Animal Butchery with Jason Wachtelhausen (Re-Release)

Transcript

Addiction, Guatemala & Whole Animal Butchery with Jason Wachtelhausen (Re-Release) · onefjef

0:01
Well, hello my friends.
0:03
How are you doing?
0:05
I hope you're thriving.
0:07
Very exciting day today.
0:08
This is the first ever re-released episode of onefjef.
0:15
It's a big step for a podcast, a big moment when you finally have
0:19
enough episodes in the can to justify re-releasing any of them, number one.
0:25
Number two, when the host/editor/producer/promoter/et
0:31
cetera gets a little bit overwhelmed and tired of making these episodes
0:36
every single week and decides to do some re-released episodes.
0:40
That's also a big moment.
0:41
Not as big as the first, but you get it
0:46
And what a re-released episode we have.
0:48
I believe this is episode number three with Jason Wachtelhausen, who
0:52
I honestly barely knew at the time.
0:54
I think it was the first time we'd actually sat down and talked.
0:57
I talk about how we met in the podcast, so I won't go through that again.
1:00
But since I recorded this episode, me and Jason have become good friends.
1:04
We hung out quite a bit when I was in Columbus.
1:06
He even came to my going away party, like five months ago or whenever that was.
1:09
I actually saw him briefly when I was in Columbus a couple weeks ago.
1:13
So he's a great guy, and since this episode was recorded
1:17
and aired, Jason got married.
1:19
So congratulations to Jason and his wife.
1:23
Another thing that happened since this episode aired is that I got
1:27
a Patreon page for this podcast.
1:30
So patreon.com/onefjef.
1:33
Please sign up.
1:34
As little as five dollars a month, or twenty-five dollars a month,
1:37
or nine hundred and fifty dollars a month, whatever you choose.
1:41
Help support the podcast.
1:42
It's a one-man show here, and every little bit helps, to be honest.
1:45
Um, helps a lot.
1:47
And it makes me feel good as well.
1:49
So please go to patreon.com/onefjef and sign up, and thank you in advance.
1:55
And to all my continuing Patreon subscribers, thank you so much.
1:58
I love you very much, and I really appreciate your
2:00
continued support of onefjef.
2:03
And for everyone, Patreon subscribers and non-Patreon subscribers, I
2:07
hope you all really enjoy this, the first re-released episode of onefjef
2:16
This is the third episode of onefjef.
2:20
The number three is the first odd prime number.
2:23
Many cultures consider it a symbol of harmony and balance.
2:27
It also appears frequently in nature, such as in the structure of triangles.
2:31
About a month or two ago, I was hanging out at a local bar right
2:34
down the street from me here in Columbus, Ohio, called Dick's Den.
2:37
Dick's Den is this iconic little dive bar in Columbus that's known
2:41
for its live jazz and bluegrass.
2:43
It's got a really cozy wood-paneled interior and a great selection of drinks.
2:47
There's a neon sign in the window of Dick's Den that
2:49
says, "Why not?" I love that.
2:52
Today's guest is Jason Wachtelhausen.
3:00
I was standing out on the patio talking to a friend of mine when I
3:02
turned around and saw this guy dressed like a rock star smoking a cigarette.
3:07
So I said, "Where'd you come from?" And he's like, "From work, man.
3:10
I'm a butcher." And I was like, "Oh, my uncle was a butcher." So we got to
3:14
talking, and I quickly realized that I'd stumbled upon one of the more
3:18
interesting humans here in Columbus, Ohio.
3:20
Jason Wachtelhausen is a writer and artist based in Columbus, Ohio.
3:24
He's contributed to magazines like Wired and Ready Made.
3:27
He's a whole animal butcher, and he's also a musician.
3:30
I feel like I could do four or five podcasts with Jason, and
3:33
he'd still have more to tell.
3:35
But I'm grateful that he was willing to sit down and share some
3:39
of his story with me and with you.
3:42
Again, I hope that you enjoy listening to this as much as I've enjoyed making it.
3:47
Thank you for listening.
3:49
Thank you for being here.
3:51
Here's Jason.
3:54
How was that concert last night?
3:55
Was it good?
3:56
It was great.
3:57
Yeah?
3:58
It was, uh, yeah, it was definitely a good show.
4:00
Are they, like, old punk rockers?
4:01
They're up there with the very oldest.
4:04
Yeah.
4:04
They are, you know, s- icons, uh, you know, originators of the punk sound.
4:09
How old are they now?
4:10
Uh, older than me.
4:11
And I'm not young, so.
4:13
So, um, Jason, what, what's your last name?
4:16
I don't even know your last name.
4:17
My full name is Jason Norvain Wachtelhausen.
4:20
My father was from Germany.
4:22
Right.
4:22
And, um, my mom's from Jamaica.
4:25
Oh, interesting.
4:26
Mm-hmm.
4:26
My, my father grew up here, you know, since he was a baby in the United States,
4:30
uh, and, um, he loved Black culture.
4:33
Okay.
4:34
You know, he was very interested in it and impressed by it or something like that.
4:38
And, um, my mom was just, like, a Jamaican hippie chick, and So they
4:47
got together, and now everyone thinks I'm Dominican when they look at me
4:51
I didn't think you were Dominican.
4:52
I had no idea.
4:52
Well, in New York everyone does.
4:54
In New York for sure.
4:54
Yeah, I could see that.
4:56
Uh, so you were born in New York?
4:57
No, I was born in Philadelphia.
4:59
Brothers or sisters?
5:01
Yes.
5:01
I had five foster brothers and sisters.
5:04
Okay.
5:05
Wow.
5:05
And, uh, my brother, brother- Your real brother … and I. Yeah.
5:10
My father ended up in the, uh, Navy, and, uh, during Vietnam.
5:16
Okay.
5:16
A bunch of weird shit there I won't get into.
5:19
But, um, there was some bar that when they were in port or whatever you call it, and
5:24
my mom was like a bar chick around there, and played pool and- Okay … drank beers.
5:31
Right, right.
5:31
Cussed and stuff.
5:32
Right.
5:33
And, um, I remember when sh- her telling me the story, and she said, uh, "Jason,
5:39
you know, that first night when I met him, it was the most magical night of my life.
5:43
It was so wonderful, and then I felt like I wrecked everything 'cause I fucked him.
5:49
I knew I shouldn't- … have done that, a- uh, 'cause guys, you know,
5:53
they're never gonna come back." And then the next time he came back
5:57
around, he did come back, and, uh, they, they ended up being in love.
6:02
Right.
6:02
Right, right.
6:03
How long were they married?
6:03
Were they married forever?
6:05
Yes.
6:05
They, they're still married now?
6:06
Yeah, until my father died.
6:07
Oh, your father.
6:07
Okay.
6:07
They both wanted to have kids, and they tried for forever to have
6:12
children, and it just wasn't working.
6:14
Okay.
6:14
And, uh, went to doctors several times, and the doctors said, "You
6:17
know, you, uh, there's nothing wrong with you, well, with either of you."
6:22
Yeah.
6:22
"It's just, you know, not happening." Sure.
6:24
Whatever.
6:24
"So just keep trying." And, but eventually they, uh, took in some
6:28
foster kids and raised, were raising them as their children, and they
6:32
act- they wanted to adopt those kids.
6:34
But the father wouldn't allow them to be adopted, 'cause he didn't want
6:38
his kids being raised by a white guy.
6:40
Oh, interesting.
6:41
Yeah.
6:41
Different times.
6:42
Different times.
6:43
Yeah.
6:44
So then all of a sudden out of the blue, my mom gets pregnant with me, and,
6:48
uh, one year and six months to the day later, she gives birth to my brother.
6:54
This June 16th and December 16th.
6:57
Okay.
6:57
So with the five foster kids and the two of us- Mm-hmm … uh, it had been a really
7:02
long time since they'd been on a date.
7:03
One night Ray Charles was playing at this dinner theater.
7:06
Okay.
7:06
And they both loved Ray Charles.
7:08
Sure.
7:08
Who doesn't?
7:09
Right.
7:10
So they said, "Fuck it. We're gonna get a babysitter to watch the
7:13
kids, and we're gonna go." Mm-hmm.
7:14
It's this girl who's babysat at, sat us before.
7:16
Mm-hmm.
7:17
And, um, she, uh, she was incredibly mean.
7:20
And, um, as soon as they leave, she starts putting on makeup, and is like, "You kids
7:26
better be good. I'll be back in about five hours," or something like that.
7:29
Mm-hmm.
7:30
As she's walking out, her older brother They lived, uh, right in the house
7:35
next door Yeah, yeah, yeah … is, like, coming out and confronts her
7:38
about it, and she's adamant, and she leaves, and he, um, decides he's
7:43
gonna take over for her and stay.
7:46
Anyway, that night, uh, the twins were playing with matches, and they were
7:53
burning little pieces of paper, and they were hiding the paper inside this cracker
7:56
box that they'd eaten the whole thing of.
7:58
And, uh, we were pretty fucking poor at the time-
8:01
Right … so that was a big deal.
8:03
And, um, they hid all the evidence under my parents' bed,
8:07
and the box started to burn.
8:11
Right.
8:13
And anyway, the house caught on fire.
8:15
The fi- and the fire was, like, uh You know, like caught the next two row houses-
8:20
Jesus Christ … on fire as well, and it, it was, we lost everything, everything.
8:25
I, I remember this so clearly.
8:27
I re- like remember the dream I was having.
8:29
I was asleep on the couch downstairs right by the front door.
8:34
And this, sort of looked like an alien or something like that, but it
8:36
was a fireman, picked me up off the couch and took me outside, set me on
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the sidewalk, and ran back inside.
8:42
And I was like, I don't know if you remember Time Bandits.
8:45
Yeah, yeah.
8:46
Okay, so that in the end of, the very end of the film when the
8:50
guy's kid's parents blow up and all the firetrucks are going by- Sure
8:54
it's just, it feels so much like exactly like how I felt.
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I was in my footy pajamas and everything like that.
9:00
And, um, I had no idea what was going on.
9:04
And I saw, we had this white Toyota hatchback, and it like skidded
9:09
around the corner and like, you know, you could hear it and everything,
9:13
like a show on TV I felt like.
9:15
And it like screeched to a halt, and before it was even totally stopped,
9:19
my mom's door opened and she like jumped out of the car and boom,
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just like straight landed on the concrete, completely passed out.
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Jesus.
9:29
My dad jumped out of the car and ran straight towards the door,
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and almost got like in a physical altercation with this fireman that was
9:38
there trying to get into the house.
9:40
Right.
9:41
And as that was going on, the dude, babysitter, came out of the
9:48
house and literally his sweater, his hair, stuff was smoking.
9:53
And he had my little brother- Jesus Christ … who was like, you
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know, no years old at the time.
9:58
Right, right, right.
9:59
And, uh, I always think about if that girl had stayed.
10:04
Was this in Philly?
10:05
Yeah.
10:05
Wow.
10:06
So what'd your parents do?
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Your dad was in the war.
10:09
Yeah.
10:09
He continued to work for the government- Okay … for the rest of his life.
10:12
All right.
10:13
And your mom?
10:14
She ran a daycare out of the house, um- Sounds like she loved kids … for
10:17
years … right, right, right.
10:19
She was amazing with kids.
10:21
Right.
10:21
Really amazing with kids.
10:24
Yeah, and she spanked one of them on the legs 'cause she pulled a knife on someone
10:28
on the school bus and- The kid did?
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The kid did.
10:32
Right.
10:33
Yeah, and The kid called the cops Mm-hmm.
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Can't do that.
10:39
And so my mom's not allowed, allowed around kids anymore, basically.
10:42
So do you guys get along?
10:43
You get along with your parents?
10:44
My dad was the best friend I ever had in my life.
10:46
No kidding.
10:46
Uh, I mean- Oh, I love that … ever.
10:48
Yeah, yeah.
10:48
Hands down.
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Like, it was weird.
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Like, my mom and my little brother are just exactly the same.
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Like, the exact same type of people.
10:57
They're both, like, explosive tempers, and, like, full of love, and just fat.
11:03
And, like, wonder if a big- Fat
11:05
balloon can float you up.
11:07
Like, they're, they have a lot of weird- Fat … weird stuff.
11:11
Do you get along with them or not, not so much?
11:12
Oh, we get along famously.
11:14
I mean, like- Okay … we, I mean, it's that sort of,
11:16
like, opposites attract thing.
11:18
Right, right.
11:19
You know, I can totally understand, like, why my dad loved my mom, and why, I
11:22
understand why I love my brother so much.
11:24
I mean, he's like the total flip side- Uh-huh … of what I would be.
11:27
Where's your brother now?
11:28
Is he, or is he around here, or is he…?
11:30
He's in Vermont.
11:31
Vermont, all right.
11:31
Yeah.
11:32
All right.
11:32
When you were a kid, what'd you think you were gonna do when you got older?
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Did you have any idea?
11:37
Go to MIT.
11:38
Oh, really?
11:38
Yeah.
11:39
Oh.
11:39
That was, that was, since I was a little kid, that was what I wanted to do.
11:42
To do what?
11:43
And do, did you have a goal after that?
11:45
Or was it just I wanna go to MIT?
11:46
Yeah, particle physics is what- No shit … I was really interested in.
11:50
Huh.
11:50
Like, the idea of CERN, like, that that was, like, actually gonna happen, and they
11:53
were deciding where it was gonna be built and everything like that, that was in,
11:56
like, '84- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
11:59
or something like that.
12:00
And, like, I was so, like, up to date on all- Oh, no shit … that news and stuff.
12:03
D- and then I, uh, went to Canada and went to school there.
12:08
Okay.
12:09
School in Canada was like something, like, in that summer, it's like at,
12:12
by the end of the summer you just couldn't wait for school to start again.
12:15
No shit.
12:16
It was so perfectly administered, and so many sensible decisions
12:22
that you don't see here.
12:23
Uh-huh.
12:24
It was amazing.
12:25
It was one of the best chapters of my entire life.
12:27
And, um, I moved back to United States, uh, ended up going to four
12:32
different high schools, um, dropped out when I was in 11th grade.
12:36
I've never been so hurt and dis…
12:38
Like, when I lived in Canada- Yeah … like everyone else in the
12:41
entire world until recently, I thought like, "Oh my God, I'm going back to
12:45
America, the coolest country in the world where everything's perfect."
12:48
"Imagine how good school is gonna be there." And it was the biggest letdown-
12:54
Right … I've ever experienced.
12:56
I, I wish that I would've stuck it out and knew obviously what I know now, that
13:00
you do that shit for the piece of paper.
13:02
Mm-hmm.
13:02
And, um, but learning, you know, and your own personal knowledge is something
13:06
you take on yourself as a pastime or whatever the hell you wanna call it.
13:12
And- Right, perspective's tricky, yeah.
13:14
So you drop out of high school, and then what do you, what do you end up doing?
13:17
What do you end up doing after you drop out?
13:19
Yeah.
13:19
Well, I was trying to figure that out.
13:20
I moved into, um- A Krishna temple in Berkeley No shit Yeah, for about
13:28
half a year or something like that All right And I've always been interested
13:31
in religion Okay And, um, uh, I, I'm not interested in following one.
13:36
I don't, I don't beli- I do believe in God.
13:39
I do not believe in the idea of religion Right.
13:41
Spirituality, not religion Sure.
13:43
Yeah, yeah.
13:43
And, um But I find that, uh, like television commercials, religion
13:49
is like something that just by studying it, it gives me a lot of
13:54
insight into human beings in general.
13:57
Right.
13:57
And so I've always been really interested in it for that reason.
14:01
And, uh, I went there, and the guy who ran the place was called Hari Bolas.
14:05
Awesome guy.
14:06
I told him that was, you know, I'm not, uh, planning on becoming a devotee of
14:10
this religion or anything like that, but I'd love to live here and I'll,
14:13
you know, take it seriously- Mm-hmm
14:14
and work with you guys and just see what you, you know-
14:16
Sure, sure, sure … whatever.
14:17
Yeah.
14:17
And, um, he was super open to it, and so it was a wonderful, uh, experience.
14:23
This is in the '90s, right?
14:25
Early '90s, mid-'90s?
14:26
This was in the early '90s.
14:27
Okay.
14:27
Yeah.
14:28
But I, I tell you, it was in California.
14:30
Sure.
14:30
And I was surprised to find that even within kind of like a religious context
14:35
or whatever, these people were still…
14:38
It was more important to them what other people thought of them than what they
14:41
were actually doing with their- And you think this is a California-specific thing?
14:45
Eh, I mean- I feel like that happens everywhere.
14:46
It happens everywhere, but man, I tell you, it's, I've experienced more of
14:50
it in California than anywhere else.
14:51
Interesting.
14:52
Yeah.
14:52
Interesting.
14:53
Did you become a follower, or did you just kind of like, uh, how did that-
14:57
You know, we'd wake up, um, sometime, I don't know, between like 3:30 and 5:00
15:05
in the morning and do a bathing ritual.
15:09
And people always tried to get there on time because the later you were,
15:15
the colder the water was for your-
15:17
5:00 AM bathing ritual.
15:19
And then- What's a bathing ritual?
15:20
Is it just you take a bath or…?
15:22
So I think, like a lot of religions, there's a lot of
15:28
ritualistic shit that happens here.
15:30
There's not much to it other than getting cleaned up.
15:33
But are you bathing yourself or other people are?
15:34
But if you're doing it with the intent of, you know, like whatever,
15:39
then it's- Like a mindful bathing.
15:41
Yes.
15:41
Okay.
15:41
That's a good way of putting it.
15:42
Fair, right?
15:42
Mon- mindful bathing, yeah.
15:44
But we would make prasadum, which was dinner.
15:47
Okay.
15:48
But again, there's like this whole- Got a fancy word for it, right … ritual.
15:50
Right.
15:50
But it's not just the word.
15:51
This, you know, basically this, you put your full intent into making it, uh,
15:57
whatever, as closely divine as possible.
16:00
And if you offer the food to a god, they'll eat it.
16:05
But because they're on a different plane, the food remains, but now it's blessed,
16:09
and it's become prasadum, not dinner.
16:12
Krishnas throughout the world aren't all what most people expect here, and
16:17
the ones in the West Coast, for the most part, aren't the same as what
16:22
you guys have experienced out here.
16:23
I mean, yeah, I mean, that's the thing with religion.
16:25
Every single, uh, even Christianity has got 18,000 different kinds,
16:28
and everybody's like, "My kind's the right kind, and your kind's the
16:30
dumb fucking kind, heathen." Right?
16:32
Um, so it's funny that that actually happens with the Krishnas as well,
16:35
although they're probably not calling each other heathens, right?
16:38
I don't know.
16:39
They're calling each other, whatever it is, it's just their word for heathen.
16:42
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:43
You know?
16:43
And so all the same.
16:43
Yeah.
16:43
I remember when I was in college, the, the Krishnas You can go get
16:46
the vegan, free vegan dinner.
16:47
Yeah.
16:47
That was the big thing, yeah.
16:48
Yeah.
16:48
Yeah.
16:49
Yeah, we, we used to go and, uh, feed the bums in People's Park and before we ate.
16:56
Okay.
16:56
It was cool.
16:56
That's- And that's, that's, that's where I learned to love cooking too.
16:59
Oh, that's cool.
17:00
Yeah.
17:00
Yeah, yeah.
17:01
So you leave the Krishna thing.
17:03
Um, any particular reason?
17:05
You just got tired of it?
17:06
Yeah, I mean, I was young.
17:07
I was 16, 17 at the time.
17:09
Right, right.
17:10
I was just itching to move on- Sure … to some place.
17:13
I get that.
17:14
And fuck, I don't know exactly where I went from there.
17:16
I went up to Sacramento for a while.
17:19
Oh, and then up to Santa Rosa- Okay … a city like Northern California.
17:22
Right, right, right.
17:22
And spent a lot of time drinking on a railroad track up there
17:25
with some- … wonderful people.
17:27
Like you were, where you run the rails or just drinking on the tracks?
17:29
Just drinking on the tracks.
17:30
On the tracks.
17:30
And the train comes, you get off the tracks, of course, then
17:32
you can- Yeah … get on it.
17:33
Why on the tracks?
17:34
Was that just a place people drank?
17:36
It's a classic place to drink.
17:37
All right.
17:37
I mean, uh- I've never drank on the railroad tracks.
17:39
I feel like I should try this.
17:39
Have you ever walked over to the tracks?
17:40
I've walked on the tracks.
17:41
I've just never drank on them.
17:42
No groups of people there drinking?
17:44
Uh, not that I've ever seen, no.
17:46
But, you know, maybe that's a different time.
17:48
Maybe.
17:49
Yeah.
17:49
Could be.
17:50
There's a lot of YouTube videos now of like people y- that you
17:52
can learn how to actually ride the rails and like s- like- Mm-hmm
17:55
sneak onto a train and ride all the way to- Yeah … yeah,
17:57
like, like a legit hobo.
17:59
I've done, I've done some hoboing- Oh, no shit … before.
18:00
Oh, we'll get to that.
18:01
Anyway, I eventually ended up back in Ohio.
18:04
I came back to Columbus.
18:05
Okay, but you had family here still?
18:06
Yes.
18:07
Okay.
18:07
My mom and my brother were still here.
18:08
Okay.
18:09
So you were in Ohio before?
18:10
After Toronto, we moved to Marion while we were having a house built
18:14
in the fancy new suburb of Gahanna.
18:17
We had one of like the first eight houses, so I lived in this like fully
18:20
developed devel- development- Right, right, right, right … with no
18:23
one else in it- Right, right, right
18:24
for a while.
18:25
And my mom was… Uh, she went crazy after my dad died.
18:30
Really?
18:30
I mean, they were really s- really in love.
18:32
Right, right.
18:33
And, um- What'd your dad die of?
18:36
Eh, mysterious circumstances What do you think?
18:39
I think I don't think about it that much All right, fair enough … that much.
18:42
Yeah.
18:43
But I, I will say this, I did, uh, have an offer from a married couple that
18:49
had put out this UFO magazine since, like, the '60s or something like that.
18:53
Okay.
18:54
And, uh, they said that they would pay for me to go and do some
18:58
research into how my dad died.
19:01
Oh, really?
19:02
So I'll tell you that.
19:03
They think that he might have been abducted by an alien.
19:06
I don't know.
19:06
That's awesome.
19:07
He's- Well, I mean, maybe he's in a better place … he gets some
19:09
weird shit … maybe he's up there.
19:10
Maybe he's flying around the- Yeah, who knows?
19:11
You know, who the fuck knows, man?
19:12
Yeah.
19:13
Your mom might find him yet.
19:15
Yeah.
19:15
Yeah.
19:16
Oh, I imagine they'll bump into each other again in some way.
19:18
Yeah, I think everybody does, right?
19:20
I, I don't know.
19:21
I hope not everybody.
19:23
Well, I mean, I think, yeah.
19:24
Anyway, so you're back in Ohio.
19:26
Uh, between going to New York every other, you know, month and, and
19:31
living in Columbus, and it being the '90s, and being in a band that played
19:35
at Stashes all the time- Oh, okay.
19:36
I didn't know.
19:37
How'd you get in the band?
19:38
I don't know.
19:39
I've been, I've basically been kind of a punk rocker my whole life and- Okay.
19:42
Yeah … anyway, between all that stuff, I became got on heroin.
19:46
Okay.
19:47
And, uh, I was a heroin addict for a few years.
19:49
How old were you when you got introduced to, to the heroin?
19:53
No, 19, 20 19 and 20?
19:55
No, yeah, no, okay, maybe 18, 19 Do you remember who introduced you to it, or?
19:59
Yeah, William Burroughs I mean, but so I had sought it out.
20:04
Right, right.
20:04
Nobody was like, "Hey, you gotta try it." Oh, so you were reading
20:06
Burroughs books and you're like, "I wanna try some of this shit"?
20:07
Yeah.
20:07
Dude, everyone I idolized was a fucking heroin addict.
20:09
Sure, sure.
20:10
It is.
20:10
That's how I got into weed.
20:11
But yeah, yeah.
20:12
Oof.
20:12
Um, yeah, I just didn't take the further step.
20:15
Yeah.
20:15
So you found somebody, you could just find somebody who would, was,
20:18
was- At that time, yeah … okay.
20:20
Yeah In that rock and roll scene in Columbus, Ohio, it was pretty easy.
20:23
And did you do it by yourself, or did you do it with- All the time.
20:26
I've, I've always- No, but the first time we're talking about, like the
20:28
first time you get it from somebody.
20:29
Do you remember, like- Yeah, the very f- okay, let's see, the
20:32
very first time I ever did it.
20:35
I think the very first time I did it, I was probably by myself, and then usually
20:39
after that I was with my girlfriend, who'd eventually become my first wife.
20:43
Okay.
20:43
So you get this heroin, it's what, black tar or was it like powder or-
20:46
So okay, that's what I was gonna say.
20:47
Yeah.
20:48
The first time I really remember coming alive from the experience and- Okay
20:53
… having that first like- And being like, "Oh, I see it" … "Man, I am gonna be
20:56
a heroin addict." Feeling was- Say it like, say it, okay … I was visiting
21:02
some friends, uh, in San Francisco, my ex-wife and I, and, um, they got this
21:09
black tar stuff and used an eyedropper method where you heat it up and put it in
21:15
a eyedropper and drop that in your nose.
21:17
Right And, uh, pretty fucking fun.
21:20
I mean, better than shooting it up, needles, like, yeah.
21:23
No.
21:24
Yeah.
21:24
Not, no, it's, it's not in terms of fun, but- Well, I mean, better
21:26
in, in my, in my mind, 'cause I'm terrified of needles, but yeah, yeah.
21:29
Yeah.
21:29
Yeah.
21:30
I can understand that.
21:31
Right.
21:32
It's all, any way you're doing it, it's… Uh, you know what?
21:35
I've n- I have friends to this day who are people that every once in a while, three,
21:41
four times a year, they'll do heroin.
21:43
Sure.
21:43
They'll shoot up.
21:44
Most of them sniff it if they're gonna do it now.
21:46
But if you can be that kind of person, I highly recommend heroin.
21:50
Sure, sure.
21:51
If you can be that- It's super fun … if you can be that kind
21:52
of person is the thing, right?
21:54
But, uh, yeah.
21:54
Right And I've been, I, I've quit smoking ci- I've quit everything
21:58
in my life, including heroin- Sure.
21:59
Yeah … without ever going to any kind of program or anything like that.
22:02
Right, right, right.
22:03
I've quit everything, but heroin's the only one that ever, I'm still scared of.
22:09
That causes- A little bit
22:10
yeah, yeah, yeah.
22:10
And like, yeah.
22:11
Yeah.
22:11
Like, oh, I would still like love to fucking get high- Yeah … on heroin
22:16
again, and I, I would if I knew I could do it without any repercu- repercussions.
22:20
Sure, sure.
22:21
I don't feel that way about PCP.
22:23
Oh.
22:23
You know what I mean?
22:24
Like Well, there's another one we can dig into.
22:26
So what does that look like?
22:27
Like, is it you're good for a while, like you're using it and you're, you think
22:31
you're, you're kind of okay, and then you realize at a certain point it's using
22:34
you or something to this effect, right?
22:36
Yeah.
22:36
Whatever, you can slap whatever kind of cliche in there you want.
22:39
Right, right, right.
22:39
It's gonna be basically true.
22:40
Thanks for calling me out on that, yeah.
22:41
No, I mean- No, yeah, I, I- … but it's gonna be true.
22:43
I mean, they're all, that's really is, uh- That's all there is to it.
22:47
You know?
22:47
Right.
22:48
It's nothing… You know, eventually the lights all go out.
22:50
Eventually you take something from a friend that you know you shouldn't
22:53
have, and I've never, ever in my life been a thief on any level.
22:57
Sure.
22:57
And that's something that, uh, you know, I, I never outright stole somebody's
23:02
guitar and sold it or something like that.
23:04
Yeah.
23:04
But I certainly did things where I know I was taking advantage- Mm-hmm … that,
23:07
um, I'll never forgive myself for.
23:09
Just to get the drug.
23:11
Yeah.
23:11
Yeah, yeah.
23:12
Yeah.
23:12
Yeah.
23:13
Yeah.
23:13
How often were you using when you were, like, in the throe?
23:15
How much, how much did you use?
23:17
Three times a day.
23:18
Huh.
23:19
How'd you get off the heroin?
23:19
You were on a couple years, you said?
23:21
Yeah.
23:22
So, uh, this one friend I- Was there, was there a moment
23:24
that… Yes, there was a moment.
23:25
Yeah, yeah.
23:26
Of course, there's always a moment, yeah.
23:27
There was… Well, things were getting bad generally.
23:29
Okay.
23:29
You know?
23:30
Uh, in a lot of ways, and I wasn't very fun, cool person anymore.
23:35
Sure.
23:36
Uh, just a lot of my friends were hurt and upset.
23:38
Eventually the drug ends up controlling you.
23:40
It's- Yeah.
23:41
Another cliche phrase But it's f- it's true.
23:44
Yeah.
23:44
That's what happens.
23:44
Right.
23:45
This guy, who was one of my best friends growing up, who went l-
23:49
his father went crazy and when we, we were young, and the same thing
23:53
happened to, to John, my friend.
23:55
Uh- What, what happened?
23:56
He, uh, went fucking crazy.
23:58
Went crazy, yeah.
24:00
I mean crazy like stopped using electricity, didn't believe in
24:04
money anymore and- Yeah … his landlord wasn't super cool with
24:07
either one of those things.
24:08
Well, the money one I think is probably the one that's the
24:10
difficult one for the landlord.
24:11
That's the one that got him- Landlord could do whatever,
24:12
but the landlord's gonna- Yeah.
24:15
Right.
24:15
He moved back in with his mom, started making his own chocolate bars.
24:19
Yeah.
24:19
Well, gotta have a hobby, right?
24:20
Yeah.
24:20
The last time I, uh, heard anything about him, his sister, who was never super
24:26
fond of me, gave me a call to let me know that he had stolen his mom's car in
24:30
Florida, and the last thing they heard was he was driving to New York to kill me.
24:35
Wow.
24:36
Yeah.
24:36
So this guy- Right … before he went crazy and wanted to kill
24:40
me, called my mom and my brother, who had relocated to Missouri.
24:44
'Cause he was, like, worried about you?
24:45
Yeah.
24:46
All right.
24:46
He was like, "Dude, he's fucked up.
24:48
It's like, I just-" 'Cause he wasn't on the drugs … "tell
24:50
him it's not him anymore." Right.
24:51
Right.
24:51
"And you gotta…" Which is ironic 'cause he l- ended up going crazy
24:54
himself and trying to kill you.
24:56
Yeah.
24:56
So, I mean- Life's a long road.
24:58
Yeah, but, uh- I mean … the moral of that one's obvious: do drugs.
25:02
Is that the moral?
25:03
Uh, let me think about that.
25:05
We'll leave that to the listeners to decide what the moral of that one is.
25:10
My mom and my brother- The brother … did exactly what
25:12
my mom and my brother would do.
25:14
They didn't say anything, and they drove from Missouri to my house 10 minutes
25:18
after they got off the phone with John.
25:20
'Cause they had no idea.
25:22
Nah.
25:22
Right.
25:23
They showed up, and my brother came in with a, like, blackjack or whatever,
25:28
ready to knock me out if he had to.
25:29
Geez.
25:29
They didn't know if I'd be crazed, like trying to bite him.
25:32
Right.
25:32
Right, right.
25:32
And I was like, "Yeah, you guys are right.
25:34
I, I gotta do it.
25:35
I, I gotta do it.
25:36
I probably would've done it myself if I had the cash.
25:39
I need about 200 bucks.
25:40
That'll get me enough heroin to, for, to get us to Missouri, and then I
25:44
won't have any when we get there."
25:45
Okay.
25:46
"So let's do it." So just left everything in the house.
25:48
My mom got me some heroin- Aw … and he said, "Good mom." Aw.
25:52
And- I'm a little, tearing up a little bit actually.
25:55
We drove out there, and I didn't sleep for like 11 days.
25:59
It was, it was- Bad.
26:01
Yeah … everything is- I've seen the movies.
26:02
Yeah, yeah.
26:03
Ugh.
26:03
But there's, there's really no explanation for it.
26:06
I mean, you cannot describe it to someone who hasn't gone through it.
26:08
It's, it's a weird kind of hell.
26:10
But on the 11th day, I was laying on the floor And I was reading this book.
26:17
It was like some old hard-boiled detective novel- Right, right … kind of novel.
26:23
And all of a sudden, I noticed the book was on my chest, and I was like,
26:27
"Oh my God, I just fell asleep."
26:28
And I looked at the clock, and I'd been asleep for like 45 minutes, and
26:32
I have never been so happy in my life.
26:34
I was like, "That meant, like, I'm beating it. This is, like, really
26:37
happening now." Right, like you're- Like, I'm not gonna feel like that forever.
26:39
You're actually, yeah, sleeping.
26:40
And I was really, like, overflowing with a kind of joy, and the phone
26:47
rang l- at that exact minute.
26:49
Uh-huh.
26:50
And I picked it up, and, uh, it was my friend Jasper.
26:54
And I was like, "Oh my God, Jasper, you're not gonna believe it.
26:57
I just fell asleep, man.
26:58
This is the greatest day of my life." And Jasper was like, "Uh, yeah, Mike
27:02
Dean killed Jay Hitt last night." And that was the guy I was- Right,
27:06
right … I was talking about earlier.
27:07
Yeah.
27:07
So you quit the heroin.
27:09
Good job.
27:09
You're in Missouri, um- Forever.
27:12
For how long were you in Missouri?
27:13
Oh, no.
27:13
I mean, I quit the heroin forever.
27:14
Forever.
27:15
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
27:16
I, like, and I literally at one point tried it again to make sure
27:20
I was, like, not addicted to it.
27:21
Wow, that's a ballsy move.
27:23
That really was- That's a ballsy move
27:23
the reason.
27:24
Yeah.
27:24
And I just sniffed it.
27:25
But, um, I, and I had a blast.
27:28
And I, uh, fucking the next day I didn't feel like any,
27:30
like, going back or whatever.
27:32
Sure.
27:32
But I knew if I did, it's, I was like that, that one time will be enough.
27:36
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
27:37
And that's it.
27:37
That's, uh, that's all I've done since.
27:38
Oh, oh, good for you.
27:39
Missouri did change my life.
27:40
It, not just getting off heroin, uh, but I got a job in a chicken factory.
27:47
Okay.
27:48
Okay.
27:49
And the first chicken factory I ever worked in was called Petit Jean.
27:52
Like a butcher kind of.
27:53
Yeah.
27:53
Like a, what do they call it?
27:54
Slaughterhouse.
27:55
It's, a- as, as an actual butcher now, I realize how far that is, but
27:59
yes, it deals with- Slaughterhouse
28:00
yeah- Right … slaughtering and breaking down meat, basically.
28:03
Right.
28:04
But, um- Yeah, I got a job, uh, at a chicken plant peeling tenders.
28:11
My thumbnails turned black and fell off.
28:13
Ugh.
28:13
And, uh, the work was fucking insane, and I felt like I deserved
28:19
it or something like that, kind of.
28:20
And, uh- How old are you?
28:22
Uh, 19, I think.
28:23
Right, right.
28:23
Okay.
28:24
And at some point there, I can't remember if it was before this or after that,
28:29
but s- at some point in California, I married my girlfriend, Laura.
28:33
Oh, all right.
28:33
So, and she was there.
28:35
You know, she had gotten off heroin too.
28:36
She came with you to get off the heroin with you.
28:38
Yeah.
28:38
Oh, okay.
28:39
That's an interesting part.
28:40
She did.
28:40
She was on, she go- she, did you get her on heroin?
28:42
It kind of just happened organically.
28:44
Okay.
28:44
Right.
28:44
I was, I was never like, "Hey, you wanna try some heroin?" I mean, you are married.
28:47
If you are married, you kinda gotta do this, you know?
28:49
I mean.
28:49
Yeah, I don't know.
28:50
We did, it, yeah.
28:51
Those couples where one does heroin.
28:53
She was, she was, she was just a heroin addict type of person regardless.
28:55
Right, right.
28:55
She ended up staying on it and doing a lot of fucked up things, but, uh, whatever.
28:59
Right.
29:00
Um, but the chicken factory, man, that, that's was amazing.
29:04
Amazing, and it's amazing to me that I could handle it.
29:07
But I moved on from there to a larger chicken factory in Buffalo, Missouri.
29:11
Okay.
29:12
And then I moved on to the granddaddy turkey factory- Oh,
29:16
oh, oh, oh … in Springfield.
29:16
Your career's,
29:19
uh, taking off.
29:19
Yeah.
29:20
Yeah, yeah.
29:21
And by, at that point I was drinking two bottles of gin a day- Oh,
29:25
right … to, to, to fit in, I guess.
29:28
There was a lot of drinking going on at the chicken factory.
29:31
Yeah, there was.
29:32
Yeah.
29:32
Missouri also is like, uh, I've been a lot of places, and I, and I never
29:37
really thought you could actually hate a place, especially one as so
29:41
beautiful as Missouri, but there's something wrong with it there.
29:44
It's like it makes people into weird, bitter, pinched-up husks of people.
29:51
Interesting.
29:52
Ugh, God.
29:52
I never heard that.
29:53
It, well- I mean, I know a few people from Missouri.
29:56
They don't, I mean, I'm sure there's exceptions, but yeah.
29:58
If you stay, I guess.
29:59
These people left.
29:59
No, there are people in St. Louis and stuff like that.
30:01
Yeah, yeah.
30:01
But it really, I guess what I'm talking about is the Ozarks and that southern-
30:05
Right, right, right, right, right
30:06
you know, part of it.
30:07
I've never seen, like, this level of, like, willful ignorance and just You know,
30:15
like, girls had, like, genital warts down to their ankles- … until you explained
30:20
to them that, like, you could just go to the doctor, and they just never knew.
30:24
Sure.
30:24
Sure.
30:24
Sure.
30:24
It, it's fucking- Sure … it's seriously sad.
30:27
Right.
30:27
Right.
30:28
Right.
30:28
That's truly… Little bit of, little bit of, like, sex education
30:31
or something's really good.
30:32
Yeah.
30:32
Explaining.
30:33
Down to your ankles, though, that's gotta be a long Like, this was- I've
30:36
never heard of that shit before.
30:37
The specific girl I'm thinking of, uh, was one of the smartest
30:42
people I met in Missouri.
30:44
Like- And she's the one who has the genital warts down to the ankles?
30:45
That she had had them.
30:47
You know, she… They… That had happened to her, and, uh,
30:50
t- because she just didn't know.
30:51
Huh.
30:52
Like, she, she said that, "I had no idea that was a-" So smart in some
30:55
ways, not smart in other ways, right?
30:56
Well, ignorant, you know what I mean?
30:58
Yeah, yeah.
30:58
Smart, but ignorant, you know?
31:00
You can't put the facts together, I guess, if you don't have the
31:02
facts, no matter how smart you are.
31:04
I mean, I'd be like, "Why the fuck are there warts all
31:06
over my pussy?" But- She was.
31:08
Yeah.
31:08
She just thought, like everyone else there does, that there's something
31:10
wrong with her specifically.
31:11
Oh, there's a lot of genital warts in Missouri, then.
31:14
Yeah.
31:16
Yeah.
31:17
Like, it's like, of course, duh.
31:18
Yeah, yeah.
31:20
They used to have on the license plate the genital wart state, I think.
31:25
You know, they also, right around the corner from where we lived was Max Creek.
31:29
Awesome softball team.
31:31
All right.
31:31
But the highest, um, incest rate-
31:36
in the country.
31:37
Wow.
31:37
Dead seriously.
31:38
Basically, the town is a family, and they got busted, uh, because there's a police
31:44
station there or something like that.
31:46
They changed a federal law- Mm … because these guys, like, 98% of the income for
31:51
the entire town was coming from this speed trap that they set up- Right.
31:56
Right … and just giving people tickets.
31:57
There's a lot of these in Ohio, too, yeah.
31:59
Yeah.
31:59
Well, this was… I don't know exactly how- Right … that scam
32:01
works- Sure … or whatever.
32:02
Sure.
32:02
But it was the entire town, and they were all related.
32:05
Huh.
32:05
And they had a great softball team, so.
32:07
This episode's sponsored by the State of Missouri.
32:11
Go for the incest, stay for the genital warts.
32:15
A- a- anyway, the whole thing that happened there was I started working
32:18
on Saturdays doing that job where I'd hook the freshly dead turkeys, and
32:22
they'd- Right … spray out, uh, yes, shit onto my neck or chin usually.
32:27
But I was doing that because this guy had a white Blazer, uh, that
32:31
he would sell me pretty cheap, and my wife's birthday was coming up.
32:36
Okay.
32:36
And, uh, I was like, "Oh, this is so cool. It'll be perfect," you know?
32:40
Mm-hmm.
32:40
And, uh, I did it, you know, worked through the whole summer or whatever
32:45
the hell it was, and, uh, got the car and everything, and brought
32:51
it home on her birthday, and, uh, drove it home from work or whatever.
32:56
Yeah.
32:56
And, um- She walked out of the house, and I was like, handed her the keys,
33:02
and she was like, "Oh my God, this is so perfect because I'm leaving
33:05
you," and literally left that night.
33:08
Took, took the car?
33:08
Took the car.
33:09
Jesus.
33:09
Took my dog.
33:11
Jesus Christ, dude.
33:13
I would… Like, did you ever think, "You can't have it if you're
33:16
leaving me. This is not, like…" It's not something I would think.
33:20
Right.
33:21
Yeah.
33:21
I, I mean, I love things, like, I like having shit around, but I
33:25
don't really care about things.
33:27
When s- something like that happens, I was- Yeah, right.
33:29
Fair enough.
33:30
Yeah.
33:30
But, uh, pissed off about it now.
33:32
Yeah.
33:33
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
33:33
It's like, it's hindsight.
33:34
Hindsight.
33:35
Yeah, yeah.
33:36
Yeah.
33:36
So as a result of that, I decided that- Missouri just had too many
33:41
bad memories for me … for me.
33:42
Sure.
33:43
Like, all of them.
33:44
The John awards and the broken leg.
33:45
Yeah.
33:46
Right.
33:47
Time to go.
33:47
Moved from Missouri to Minneapolis, moved in with a couple of old
33:50
friends, uh, from here, from Columbus.
33:53
Okay.
33:53
I continued, uh, working in meat, and I ended up managing a Whole Foods meat
33:58
department for a while, and then I moved on to this place called The Wedge
34:01
that was, like, uh, the biggest food co-op in the United States until, you
34:07
know, s- 2000 or something like that.
34:09
Okay.
34:09
From the '60s it had been there consistently.
34:11
Super famous place.
34:12
We had, like, uh, Prince's wife shopped there all the time.
34:16
Tiny Tim, uh, in his last days- Mm-hmm … was, like, one of my
34:19
main kind of clients or whatever.
34:21
No shit.
34:22
We, yeah, discussed his diet a lot.
34:24
And, and his wife continued, uh- Huh coming in after he died
34:29
and everything That's crazy.
34:31
Laura Dern would come in.
34:33
Uh, I remember Fugazi came in one time.
34:36
That was pretty awesome.
34:37
So yeah, people like… It was a pretty famous place- It was a
34:40
scene … in Minnesota or whatever.
34:41
I got a girlfriend who worked there- Okay … named Sarah, and, um, she
34:46
had studied Spanish stuff, culture and language her entire life, and
34:53
she wanted to go to Guatemala, and we decided, "Okay, let's do that."
34:57
So we saved up for- Why not?
34:59
… whatever.
34:59
Yeah … a while, and we put away maybe 10 grand or something like that.
35:02
Okay.
35:03
So we flew… It was the first time I'd had money again in a while,
35:06
and, uh, we flew my mom out to Isla Mujeres, which is a little island
35:11
off the coast of- Okay … Cancun.
35:13
Right.
35:13
You just fly into Cancun.
35:14
It's not a Cancun-type place.
35:15
It's… It used to be wonderful.
35:17
I don't know what it's like now.
35:18
Right.
35:18
We partied there with her for an unforgettable week, and, uh, then
35:23
from there we just started, Sarah and I just started traveling south, and
35:27
ended up going through, um, you know, the rest of Mexico, through Belize.
35:31
Mm-hmm.
35:31
And, uh, then from Punta Gorda, Belize, we took a boat, uh, to Livingston, Guatemala.
35:37
Okay.
35:38
It's probably where, like, 90% of the Black population of Guatemala lives.
35:41
Okay.
35:42
And, uh, spent about six months there, and then from there we moved to
35:48
Guatemala City for a while, and then from there we went to Todos Santos.
35:52
And Todos Santos is, uh, on the west coast of Guatemala, way up
35:56
in the mountains, 9,200 feet, and, uh, lived there for about a year.
36:01
Okay.
36:01
And it was, it was like living in Indiana Jones.
36:04
I, I don't even know where you would begin there.
36:07
There's, there's a thing they have there called the Caja Real, which
36:11
is this box of papers and stuff like that that allegedly came over with the
36:16
conquistadors, but there's, like, stuff written on skin and all this, like-
36:20
weird stuff, and it's very, very selective about who gets to see it,
36:23
that people have tried to steal it back to the United States a bunch of times.
36:27
The Smithsonian allegedly has had people there basically trying to take this thing.
36:31
Wow.
36:32
I got to see that, which was a real honor.
36:34
Yeah, that's cool.
36:34
Amazing.
36:35
And, like, all of these m- meetings and stuff like that would happen in, like,
36:40
a dirt floor wooden shack with a fire in it, you know- Huh … on a chilly
36:45
night drinking aguardiente and p- venado or- Yeah … whatever with these guys.
36:51
It was super magical living there.
36:54
There's a famous horse race that happens there every year- Huh
36:57
that, um, basically all the men go to the coast.
37:01
I have no idea what they do.
37:02
I never made it to the coast.
37:04
But they go to the coast and work.
37:07
That's what everyone says.
37:08
Okay.
37:08
You know, "My husband's at the coast working." Mm-hmm.
37:11
"Come in." But, um, they, uh- come back in November for the
37:19
Day of the Dead celebration.
37:21
Mm-hmm.
37:22
And that's their huge holiday.
37:23
Right.
37:23
And so there's like three celebrations right in a row, and
37:27
one of them is this horse race.
37:28
And the horse race is, uh, 100 yards or something like that.
37:33
Uh-huh But it's back and forth, and each time you get to the finish line, you
37:39
have to drink a shot of Quetzalteca, and you go back and do the same thing.
37:45
The year I was there was the first time no one died- … during the race, but
37:49
there were some serious, serious injuries.
37:52
So they're on the horse drinking while they're on the horse, or?
37:54
They, they go, cross the finish line, drink, turn around, go
37:57
back, cross the finish line.
37:58
But they sit on the horse the whole time.
37:59
Yeah, they never get off the horse.
38:00
Okay.
38:00
Right.
38:01
In fact, most of them tie themselves to the horse.
38:05
Jesus Christ.
38:05
And, uh, which is one of the things that's resulted in a lot- That would do it,
38:09
yeah … the deaths and stuff like that.
38:11
They, uh, use a rooster for their riding crop.
38:15
They tie the rooster's legs to their wrist, so the rooster, it's tied to them,
38:18
a live rooster, and that's what they use.
38:21
Jesus Christ.
38:21
And they spend all the money that they've made at the coast-
38:26
Uh-huh … or doing whatever.
38:28
Every family buys a cow.
38:30
That's, like, mandatory, and, uh, that's parted up and whatever for feasts of-
38:34
Right … over the course of that week.
38:37
And then the guys all have, the tailors there are famous.
38:41
They're, they're most famous for the fabric that they make there.
38:44
The guys have these insanely elaborate sort of conquistador disco outfits made.
38:52
Sure.
38:52
Okay.
38:53
And that's it, then they're, everyone's broke again, and all
38:55
the men go back to the coast.
38:56
Huh, and that's life.
38:58
They do it all again, yeah.
38:59
Huh.
39:00
Wow.
39:00
Yeah.
39:01
I was a coordinator for a school they had up there called El Proyecto Linguistico de
39:08
Espanol y Mam.
39:08
Si.
39:09
They've never had a written language.
39:11
Their Mam is the name of the language.
39:12
They've never had a- Oh, right … a written language.
39:14
So it's like tribal people sp- They're indigenous people.
39:16
Right, indigenous, yeah.
39:18
You know, none of the existing alphabets work for some of the
39:20
intricacies of the language.
39:21
Sure.
39:22
It, it is, it's a weird one.
39:24
I remember ътскънсич means may I have a cigarette.
39:27
Oh.
39:28
Well, you got that one down.
39:29
Yeah.
39:29
Yeah.
39:29
And they accepted you as if, like, you, you were accepted in their
39:33
friend groups and whatever, or?
39:35
I, I'm just not an idiot, and I understand how people work.
39:38
Right.
39:38
So yeah, they accepted me really well.
39:40
But there was an incident very shortly after I left, within a month after
39:45
I left, where a couple of Japanese tourists were killed, like, 10
39:48
minutes after getting off the bus.
39:50
They had gotten, they had made so many mistakes that they had, there was, like,
39:54
a mob riot, and they killed this- Jesus Christ … uh, woman and her, her husband.
40:00
And, uh, basically the whole thing started because the woman got off the
40:03
bus and immediately saw, like, some little kid walking around, was like,
40:07
"Oh, he's so cute," and picked him up.
40:08
And the biggest fear they have of Americans especially, but anyone
40:13
foreign- Right … is that you're there to steal their children's organs.
40:17
Oh sh- So I don't know where that came from.
40:19
Sure, sure.
40:19
But they, they believe it totally, and this, like, foreign-looking
40:23
person jumped off and grabbed a kid immediately, and it just exploded.
40:27
Jesus.
40:27
They both ended up dead.
40:29
Wow.
40:30
Yeah.
40:30
Oy.
40:31
Yeah.
40:32
Yeah.
40:33
Are you still with the woman at this time?
40:35
Oh, no, she met some guy, and I remember the guy had a moped too.
40:39
It was pretty cool.
40:40
Sweet.
40:40
And, uh, yeah, he scooted her out of town and, uh- Scooted her out of town.
40:45
I left the school, met a kind of a big group of people.
40:48
We traveled around to the rest of, uh, Central America- Mm-hmm … mostly,
40:52
and had some amazing adventures.
40:54
Good times.
40:55
Yeah, yeah.
40:55
Lots, lots of fun, man.
40:56
Right.
40:57
Lots of fun.
40:58
Then, uh, along the way I acquired this dog that was a, um, a Dogo Argentino,
41:06
which is… I don't know if you know them or not, but they're big dogs.
41:09
Okay.
41:09
They're like all white, super short hair.
41:11
People always mix them up with pit bulls.
41:13
I was in the Huehuetenango, this town.
41:15
I walked by a pet shop and they had a litter, and there was this one that
41:19
was like, looked like a little rat, like laying all splayed out- Uh-huh
41:22
by himself.
41:23
Uh-huh.
41:24
And I was like, "Oh, what's gonna happen to that one?" And the guy was like,
41:26
"Eh, I'll probably drown him." Mm-hmm.
41:28
And I was like, "Oh, I'll take him then." And he was like, "All right, 7,000
41:33
quetzales." Which was $13 or whatever.
41:36
Right, right, right, right.
41:36
And I was like, "Fuck it, okay." Right.
41:38
So I bought him, and uh, he was so little.
41:40
We used to, I used to carry him in a bag.
41:42
For a long time he would fit in that bag.
41:45
And um, we started hitchhiking, and we hitchhiked from San José,
41:49
Costa Rica to Phoenix, Arizona.
41:50
Wow.
41:51
Yeah.
41:51
It was pretty awesome.
41:53
With the dog?
41:54
Yeah.
41:55
What was the dog's name?
41:56
Clavo.
41:57
Clavo.
41:57
And everyone always made a joke about that because they use a lot
42:00
of diminutives and demonstratives in the way they speak there.
42:04
Right, right, right.
42:04
And so everyone always said, "Oh, right now he's a clavito,"
42:08
like just a little Clavo.
42:09
But Clavo means nail.
42:11
Okay.
42:11
But it's also slang for problem.
42:13
Oh.
42:13
And they were like, "You know, eventually he's gonna become a Clav-
42:16
Clavo- That's a good name … and then a clavón," like a huge problem.
42:19
Right, right, right, right.
42:20
And it happened.
42:21
Right.
42:21
Well, it's a good name in that case.
42:23
Yeah.
42:23
Right.
42:24
Yeah, he was a great dog.
42:25
So you get to Phoenix.
42:26
Get to Phoenix, go to California.
42:28
Right.
42:28
You know, my grandmother dies in Ohio.
42:31
Mm-hmm.
42:31
I marry in Ohio.
42:32
Okay.
42:32
And, um, drive back for that funeral, stay here for about six months, go
42:39
to New York Really at this point, like it's very culture shock being
42:44
back in the United States at all.
42:45
Sure.
42:45
Yeah.
42:46
And, um- You were gone for what?
42:47
Two, three years?
42:47
Yeah.
42:48
Okay.
42:48
And New York was just overload.
42:51
And I went from there, I texted a friend or called a friend who, um, had crashed on
42:57
my couch in Minneapolis for about a year.
42:59
Mm-hmm.
43:00
I was like, "I gotta get out of New York." My friend lived in Vermont.
43:03
I went up there, uh, to stay with him, and if there- if you're ever coming
43:08
back from Guatemala and feel- Vermont
43:10
culture shocked, Vermont is really, you know- I think Vermont's good for
43:13
a lot of different kind of things.
43:15
I think it's just- It is … a chill place to, yeah.
43:17
They, there's some, uh, soul-killingly awful things about it, I think, as
43:21
well, but it's mostly just really- You can say that about almost anywhere.
43:23
Yeah.
43:24
Yeah.
43:24
Sure.
43:25
Yeah.
43:25
Um, yeah, stayed in Vermont for a while, opened up a record store.
43:29
My little brother flew out to help me run it, fell in love with Vermont.
43:33
He still lives there now.
43:34
Mm-hmm.
43:35
And met this girl.
43:37
Mmm, had a real textbook affair.
43:41
Her husband was like a super rich dude and stuff like that.
43:44
Oh, I see.
43:45
And, um, eventually she left him and we got married.
43:50
How long did it take for like, so she's cheating on her husband for a while, but
43:54
how long did it take from the beginning of the affair to the leaving the guy?
43:59
Well, when we started, I think we, we kind of like, we think like, if
44:02
this is still going on in two years, we gotta get together, and then
44:05
it, it became a year and a half.
44:06
Then- Mm-hmm … a year.
44:07
I think it was about eight months after- And the husband
44:09
never knew … we got together.
44:10
Never knew until I drove her up to Montreal, um, 'cause he was at
44:14
their Montreal house at the time, and, uh, or he was coming back
44:20
there from some overseas trip.
44:23
Right.
44:24
So she, we went back to Montreal the day before.
44:26
I helped her pack all her shit up, and then I went and sat in a bar while
44:29
she waited for him to come home, and she was like, "I'm leaving you." Huh.
44:32
Came down, met me at the bar, and threw all her shit in the car and left.
44:35
Wow.
44:36
And stayed together for 22 years, something like that.
44:39
Wow.
44:40
No shit.
44:40
No, no, no.
44:41
Sorry.
44:41
Longer than that.
44:43
Longer than that, 'cause my daughter's 22 now, so.
44:45
Wow.
44:46
And, uh, when she got pregnant, I didn't want my kid to be raised in
44:50
Vermont, and I did want- Right … my kid to be raised in New York.
44:55
Yeah.
44:55
We ended up in Washington Heights, which is probably about as tough
44:58
as you're gonna get in- New York, Manhattan anyway Back then.
45:02
Yeah, yeah Still, still Yeah, it's cleaned up quite a bit Oh, yeah.
45:06
I mean, before I got there, it was really… That's the they
45:09
shoot cops up there era Mm-hmm.
45:10
Even Harlem's, like, cleaned up quite a bit.
45:12
Oh, yeah.
45:13
Harlem's, uh- Yeah … right before I left New York, I was in, uh, Harlem,
45:17
right on 110th and 2nd Avenue.
45:19
Oh, I was right…
45:19
We- I think we talked about this.
45:20
I was right near there.
45:21
I was on- Oh … in East Harlem at, uh, what was it?
45:24
116th between 2nd and- Yeah … 1st and 2nd.
45:26
10th.
45:27
That's right.
45:27
Yeah, yeah.
45:27
Yeah, I remember.
45:28
They were calling it Spaha.
45:29
They were trying to rebrand East- Spanish Harlem into Spaha back then.
45:33
Oh my God.
45:34
It didn't take.
45:35
It didn't take.
45:35
Didn't catch on.
45:36
No, no.
45:37
There was a Spaha cafe near us, which was just like- … what are you doing?
45:39
What are you doing?
45:41
Spaha.
45:42
Yeah.
45:42
So you're raising the kid in, uh, in, uh, Washington Heights?
45:45
Yeah, and I, you know, I got rid of the record store.
45:48
My wife is a medical professional.
45:50
She, uh, you know, she- her career was really moving forward.
45:53
Okay.
45:53
I sold the record store, and I spent… I said, "I'm gonna spend the first
45:57
two years of our daughter's life with her every single day." Okay.
46:01
And I did.
46:01
Sure.
46:02
For two years, man, we would, every single day, like while she was
46:05
learning how to talk and everything, we'd just walk around New York City.
46:07
We'd go to Central Park every day.
46:08
We'd go to, you know, took her to see the Met and Ev- like, all that-
46:12
That's awesome … kind of stuff.
46:13
Yeah.
46:13
And she's a very sophisticated young woman with a great palate.
46:17
She, uh, loves to eat, and she loves to cook.
46:21
It's tons of fun.
46:21
She's still in New York?
46:23
Yeah.
46:23
Right on.
46:24
I continued butchering, uh, uh, during this whole time, getting
46:28
better and better and better.
46:29
Mm-hmm.
46:30
And, uh, in New York, I ended up working at a place called Harlem Shambles- Mm
46:33
… which at the time was arguably one of the three best butcher shops in the country.
46:37
Okay.
46:38
And, uh, you know, we had a lot of press and stuff like that.
46:41
Sure.
46:42
Did a lot of interviews, and I used to speak at, you know, school events
46:46
all the time, things like that.
46:47
It was- Mm. It was wonderful, like to- That's pretty cool … finally, like,
46:51
dealing… I mean, we bought cows.
46:53
That was it.
46:54
That's how the shop worked.
46:55
Right.
46:55
We bought cows.
46:56
We took 'em apart.
46:57
We aged everything.
46:58
It was, uh, to- one of the greatest honors of my life.
47:01
It's also cool that, like, this thing that kinda started as a
47:04
fluke in a way in Minneapolis- Yeah
47:05
kind of came full circle in the… Yeah, yeah.
47:08
Well, I just became so obsessed with the anatomy of the animal and
47:14
learning it and just how, um… The insights you can get, you know, like
47:18
your muscles are exactly the same as a cow's except for your collarbone.
47:21
Sure.
47:22
A whale's the same.
47:23
You know, I can take apart any mammal now, and I understand the way, uh, you
47:28
know, that all of it functions together, and it's just fascinating to me.
47:30
Right.
47:31
And, um, anyway, and I was good at it, and I really, really enjoyed it.
47:35
Interesting that your, your, your ex-wife's also in, like, the medical
47:38
field, which is kind of a weird connection- Yeah … in a way, yeah.
47:41
I always refer to myself now, when I'm in pain, I'm always thinking, oh, my eyebrow
47:46
hurts- … or my flat iron's killing me.
47:48
Right, right.
47:48
Like, you start seeing all those cuts and everything.
47:51
My, my, my rump roast is, is sore today.
47:55
Yeah.
47:55
How long were you there for?
47:56
10 years, 15 years?
47:57
We moved there when Lyla was less than one.
48:00
Uh-huh.
48:00
And I moved away seven months ago or whatever.
48:03
Oh, seven months ago.
48:04
All right.
48:04
Yeah, so we were there- Wow
48:05
for 20, I think 21 years total.
48:08
Wow.
48:08
A lot of changes in those 21 years.
48:10
Yeah.
48:10
Yeah.
48:11
And obviously, I mean, I've w- worked with the gallery during
48:14
the time that I was there.
48:15
I was in a great band called Ass Falcon while I was there, and got to
48:19
do, you know, a million amazing shows.
48:21
And one of the other things I always wanted to do was, uh, I
48:25
went and learned kosher butchering in Crown Heights- Oh, no shit
48:29
like, in a totally Hasidic, you know- Oh, no shit … neighborhood.
48:33
And, um, it was an amazing experience.
48:36
I definitely came away from it feeling that, uh, you know, kosher
48:40
meat is basically exactly as dumb and wasteful as I thought it was.
48:46
But the process is still fascinating.
48:49
And the one thing that I respect them for being able to do more than anything
48:54
else, because almost no one else can do this anymore, like, they hone their knives
49:01
to a sharpness that is something that you've never experienced in your life.
49:04
Uh-huh.
49:05
Because if the cow flinches, and you have to kill it by cutting its throat.
49:09
Okay.
49:10
And if the cow flinches at all, if the cow knows it's dying, you throw it away.
49:15
Wow.
49:16
They throw it away.
49:16
That's just it.
49:17
Just you don't touch it.
49:18
And do they throw away a lot of cows?
49:20
Yeah.
49:20
And you know what I would do?
49:21
Buy them for $1-
49:23
as long as I could transport them.
49:25
For sure.
49:25
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
49:25
They'd sell them to me for $1, and I'd take them to another shop and either give
49:29
it to all the guys or, like, use it for lessons or, um, you know- That's fucking-
49:35
… whatever … it makes me a little angry.
49:36
You know, do your kosher thing, but you're just wasting life really.
49:39
You're just tossing away.
49:41
Well, it's not like there's a shitload of food to go around- Right … for
49:44
everybody on the planet either.
49:45
For sure, no.
49:45
Yeah.
49:45
And every cow that they, that they touch, they throw away all of the good part.
49:51
No shit.
49:51
There's no tenderloin.
49:53
There's no, you know, all that stuff from the back- What do they,
49:55
what do they- Over the back half
49:56
what do they even eat?
49:57
The shoulder.
49:58
That's it?
49:59
Yeah.
49:59
Interesting.
49:59
Uh, well, more than anything, it was just an amazing experience to, like,
50:04
be with all these guys that were big- Like- … members of the community.
50:08
Right.
50:08
To see how the community functioned in general was fascinating.
50:13
The whole thing is set up to keep people and money completely within the community.
50:18
Right.
50:19
And it works.
50:19
I mean, it really works.
50:20
Is it, uh, like, was it, is this a Hasidic community or- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
50:23
Okay.
50:23
Yeah, yeah.
50:23
The giant hats and- Right … the ropes and all that- Right … everything.
50:27
I mean, they also, like, use more social services than almost
50:29
any population in the city.
50:31
Like, there's a good and a bad side to the whole thing, but, like, uh, the
50:34
stories that I hear about the drain on social services and so forth and, and
50:37
welfare, I mean, there's a lot of- It fall more into the bad category for me
50:40
because as well as a lot of it works, it's so non-inclusive or whatever.
50:47
Yeah.
50:47
You know what I mean?
50:47
Ins- insular.
50:48
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
50:48
It's, and it's, um- Yeah, it just turns it into something that's kinda ugly.
50:53
Yeah.
50:54
But it is a thing that if the world thought like that, things would be--
50:58
Like, if the world thought like that in terms of being a community the way
51:02
they view themselves as a community, it, you know, it would be amazing.
51:06
It could work.
51:06
Yeah.
51:07
Yeah.
51:08
'Cause it's not really based on just taking advantage of
51:10
people or anything like that.
51:11
It's, uh, they certainly take advantage of a good deal.
51:14
And you can't really leave.
51:15
I mean, there's a lot of downsides to that community, but certainly I hear
51:18
you on the community, community part.
51:20
Your drunken brother always has a job there.
51:23
Doesn't matter.
51:24
Right.
51:24
And they know that they just gonna bounce him from this person to this
51:28
person, and he's gonna end up stealing something from there, and they're
51:29
gonna bounce him to this person.
51:31
But guaranteed.
51:32
Always gonna have a place.
51:33
Always have a- Yeah
51:34
always have a place to go.
51:35
And it just kind of works out mathematically as long
51:42
as you keep that happening.
51:42
Well, they also, they also, like, reproduce at a higher rate than
51:45
almost any population in the country.
51:46
Like, that's, like, their whole thing- Yeah … is to, just to keep having
51:49
babies and- And not vaccinating is like- Well, I mean, they've gone-- I mean,
51:52
I've heard stories of them, like, going out of New York and going to cities,
51:55
like, upstate and, like, reproducing to a degree, and then eventually just
51:59
taking over the whole town- Mm-hmm
52:00
of the city council and stuff.
52:02
Like, that's the thing.
52:03
It's a complicated, it's a complicated- Yeah, it seems like a lot of people are,
52:06
like, catching on to the have a bunch of babies idea and use them to take over.
52:10
Yeah.
52:10
Yeah, yeah.
52:11
Little sims- Well, they're doing it real well … to a weird degree.
52:13
They're doing it real well.
52:14
Yeah.
52:14
Yeah.
52:15
Yeah.
52:15
But I was there for the beef, and it was, uh, uh, that experience was cool.
52:20
Is there a, a story or a, or a, or a memory, like, that was, like, the most
52:24
fucked up or whatever story that you, that you, in the time, your time in New York?
52:28
One of the crazier ones that just comes to mind, and that's, and this probably
52:31
isn't anywhere near the craziest, but My wife, she, uh, is incredible at her
52:38
job, and for some reason, like, she really cared about working with, um,
52:45
gay populations, poor people- Mm-hmm
52:47
immigrants, things like that, and re- really has dedicated her life
52:51
to it and just done amazing work.
52:53
But, um, our house in Washington Heights for about 10 years was the
52:59
hospital for people that were gonna get deported if they went to the hospital.
53:03
Jesus.
53:04
And we had a chick die there one night, and literally Jessina revived her.
53:10
She'd gotten coke and heroin mixed up or something like that.
53:14
And, um, she left in the morning, like, still didn't even know where
53:18
she was- Yeah, yeah … or whatever.
53:20
But finally we felt comfortable saying, "Take her the fuck out of here." And,
53:24
uh, two days later, I came home from work, and there's this black box sitting
53:28
in front of the door, and it was a big, giant tiramisu with a note on it
53:33
saying, "Thanks for saving my life."
53:35
Oh, the- I mean, I guess, I guess tiramisu's as good a, as good, as good
53:39
a prize for that as anything, right?
53:40
Why not?
53:41
That was the best gift.
53:42
I wonder if she thought about it and was like, "Well, what's the, what's a
53:44
good gift for somebody- Yeah … who actually saved my life?" Yeah.
53:47
Wow, how long was she, how was she- Nah, I mean, she was like, just her
53:50
heart stopped or something like that.
53:51
Right, right, right.
53:52
But it was, um- Wow, that's nuts … it was scary.
53:55
I mean, 'cause it was the one that we almost were like, "We, we gotta call
54:00
the ambulance- Right … at this point." But then she would've been deported.
54:03
Yeah.
54:04
Of course, they had a, a scam where when, uh, this used to mean
54:07
something, I don't know if it means anything in the government anymore,
54:09
but where they would marry people.
54:12
Like, they had the whole thing where, like, marrying people to gain citizenship-
54:16
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah … or to start the process of- Yeah … whatever.
54:19
And like, you know, Caroline's been married to three or four
54:21
people, you know, along the lines.
54:22
Right, right, right.
54:23
'Cause you gotta stay married for a few years.
54:24
Right.
54:25
Oh, right.
54:25
So- And they come and check and everything.
54:26
There was a whole Gérard Depardieu movie about that called- Oh … Green Card.
54:29
It was awful.
54:30
Yeah, but anyway, yeah.
54:32
That's my film reference, throwing it in there for you.
54:34
That re- just reminded me of something.
54:35
Actually That chick Sarah that I went to Guatemala with- Yeah
54:39
super smart.
54:40
Sure.
54:41
But if she didn't remember something, she would always come up with,
54:44
like, the most ridiculous cliches.
54:47
And we were, when we were living in Guatemala City, we went to the
54:50
movies almost every single day.
54:51
It was 25 cents.
54:52
Sweet.
54:52
It's another good way of trying to learn Spanish.
54:54
Absolutely.
54:55
And we were trying to remember Gérard Depardieu's name.
54:58
And I've never forgotten her saying, like, "I know it. Something like Jean Paul
55:03
Bordeaux." Like, just- Jean Paul Bordeaux.
55:08
Well, I mean, the French part's in there.
55:09
Yeah.
55:10
You know?
55:10
Right.
55:10
Yeah, I think he got canceled too 'cause he sexually something with… Yeah.
55:14
Yeah.
55:15
People are fucking weird, man.
55:16
I mean, you dig d- you dig enough into anybody's thing, I think
55:19
you can find some darkness.
55:21
Um, but yeah.
55:23
Yeah.
55:23
I suppose that's true.
55:25
Yeah.
55:25
You know, everybody's got dirt in their past.
55:26
Although, but people are pretty fucking weird, man.
55:28
There's a- Oh, people are- … lot of stuff that people do that-
55:30
No, I mean- … I'm like, "What?
55:31
That's how you got in trouble?
55:33
Ew," or, "Weird." But I mean, existing on its own is pretty weird.
55:37
And the older I get, the more the existence part of the whole
55:40
thing, that we're even here, becomes more of a trip to me.
55:44
Like, the more I re- realize what actually is happening, I'm more
55:49
blown away by the fact that it's happening at all, if that makes sense.
55:52
Certainly.
55:53
Right?
55:53
Like how strange- I, I understand
55:54
it is to be anything at all in this entire weird universe that we've ended up.
55:58
Not to get too esoteric, but, like- Do you ever listen to Neutral Milk Hotel?
56:01
Dude, that's where I came, that's the lines from there, yeah.
56:03
Yeah, the lines from there.
56:04
Yeah.
56:04
Big fan.
56:05
So there's a book about them.
56:07
Mm-hmm.
56:07
I'm in it.
56:08
No shit.
56:09
Yeah.
56:09
Yeah, I've got a copy with it that has- The thing, 33 1/3 book?
56:12
It's, yeah, it's that one.
56:13
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
56:13
Yeah.
56:14
'Cause we, uh, we spent a lot of time together.
56:17
No shit.
56:18
Yeah.
56:18
Yeah, for a while.
56:19
They w- uh, just talk about interesting guys, man.
56:23
Yeah, I saw Jeff Magnum at Bam years ago.
56:26
I cried.
56:26
I cried.
56:27
Um, yeah.
56:29
Dude.
56:29
Love their shit.
56:30
Yeah, yeah, those, they're, they're great stuff.
56:32
Yeah, I remember when I first heard that album, a friend of mine played
56:35
it for me, and I was like, "What the fuck is this fucking n- nonsense
56:38
noise?" And then I listened to it again, and I was like, "All right.
56:41
There's something more." It took a while to get it, and then once you
56:43
get it, I was like, "Oh, all right.
56:45
I see what's happening here." Yeah.
56:46
There's, there's magic and joy within that.
56:48
It's magic.
56:48
That's it.
56:49
And, and, and just joy.
56:50
So what went wrong in, in New York?
56:52
So you, with the wife for 20, 22 years, 20 years, whatever it is, and,
56:57
uh, is that why you left New York?
56:59
Jess and my, I, my wife had been talking about it for a while.
57:02
I mean, she's certainly not a very faithful person, and,
57:07
uh- Ah, okay … you know.
57:09
Well, whatever.
57:10
We both love fucking or- Sure … since, you know.
57:12
Who doesn't?
57:13
We felt like, you know- Lila was grown up Mm-hmm … our daughter,
57:17
and we did a fucking rad job.
57:20
You know what I mean?
57:21
We raised a, like, an amazing kid.
57:23
Yeah.
57:23
And, um, are both in some ways contributing to the world in a way that
57:27
we both feel, you know, happy with.
57:30
Right.
57:30
And, um, realize, you know, we're just still young enough to just have
57:34
a whole nother life, and we're still great, great friends, you know?
57:38
And, uh, I can't imagine there ever being a time that we
57:41
don't spend some time together.
57:42
Um- So just like a mutual- Yeah … thing.
57:45
Yeah.
57:45
Yeah.
57:45
Let's just go and have- That's kind of beautiful, actually, yeah
57:47
different, uh, yeah, adventures.
57:49
And, uh- And that's why you left New York, or?
57:50
Well, no, that was… Okay, so that was about a few years before I left, actually.
57:55
We'd- we were separated in the city together for s- yeah, I guess
57:59
three years or something like that.
58:00
And we still-- There are certain parties that we do every year, um,
58:04
that we continued getting together to do the parties and stuff- Okay
58:07
like that.
58:08
Then got together with the woman I'm with now, Frankie.
58:11
She's amazing, t- tons of fun, very- Mm-hmm … the exact opposite of Jess.
58:15
Right.
58:16
And, um, we were trying to decide if we wanted to sign another lease, and
58:20
we'd been thinking about going to Vegas and, um, eventually I was like, "You
58:25
know, she's never seen America at all."
58:27
She's like s- in Russia till she was 10 or something.
58:30
Oh, she's Russian?
58:31
Yeah.
58:31
Okay.
58:32
And, uh, I was like, "You know, it's kinda sucks a lot, but, um, if there's
58:36
any place where it's kinda cool, it's Columbus, Ohio." And I think it'd
58:39
be super awesome- Interesting … to go there and see what's going on
58:42
after- Yeah, yeah … 30 years away.
58:43
Yeah.
58:44
And then we got, um, the very first apartment I ever had in my life when
58:48
I was 16 years old, we moved back in.
58:50
Back into it, right.
58:51
And so when that happened, it felt like, uh, I don't know, circle of
58:56
life or- Right … this is really supposed to be happening or something.
58:58
Yeah, yeah.
58:59
Mm-hmm.
58:59
And how's it been?
59:00
Uh, it's wonderful, I'd say.
59:02
I mean, I, I've really enjoyed it.
59:04
I've been to some cool shows.
59:05
I've bumped into a lot of old people.
59:07
Sure.
59:07
Bumped into some kids that, like, knew me, like, in a legendary way.
59:12
Like, they were in sixth grade when I was in high school kinda- Oh, wow.
59:15
That's right … kinda thing.
59:16
And they're like- Yeah, yeah … 40-year-old men like, "Whoa.
59:18
Oh, my God, you did whatever stupid thing we did." Do you think you'll
59:22
be in Columbus for a while, or what are you, what are you thinking?
59:24
You don't know?
59:25
Yeah, I could imagine being here for- Yeah … five years.
59:27
Yeah.
59:27
I've been here six years.
59:27
I'm starting to get a little stir crazy.
59:29
Yeah.
59:29
I'd never imagined I'd come back to Ohio, and it just kinda happened.
59:33
And, uh, yeah, I'm getting a little bit Antsy Sure.
59:39
Nothing is, um, a crisis here No, no Everything is a crisis in New York Right.
59:46
No, I get that- Everything … for sure.
59:47
And I, and I kind of miss, part of me misses the crisis thing a little bit.
59:52
Yeah.
59:52
Life is very easy here, and I feel like my neuroses, I, is just, it,
59:57
it, it kind of thrives a little bit with a little bit of chaos.
59:59
Yeah, you know what I mean?
1:00:00
Yeah, I, 100% I know what you mean.
1:00:02
Yeah.
1:00:02
I, I'm missing it.
1:00:03
Yeah.
1:00:04
The reason why I say five years is I can't imagine myself being away from
1:00:07
New York for more than five years.
1:00:08
Oh, you wanna go back to New York?
1:00:09
It's, it's the greatest city in, on Earth.
1:00:11
Just, if you live there nonstop and never, ever leave, it's- Well, you turn
1:00:18
into a fucking psychopath in a way Yeah.
1:00:19
It's just not, it's not a good- Yeah … thing.
1:00:21
And there, the city is … Well, I always feel like if you're not going
1:00:25
to the museums, you're not taking advantage of all the amazing things
1:00:28
that the city has to offer, then why in the fuck are you paying the rent?
1:00:31
That's the thing, I couldn't afford to go to the, take advan- I mean, when I was
1:00:34
living there, I realized towards the end, I was there for 10 years, I realized,
1:00:36
like, I can't really even afford to do most of the things that New York offers,
1:00:40
'cause it was too fucking expensive.
1:00:41
Like, I wasn't making that money.
1:00:42
But that's the thing about New York.
1:00:43
I fucking, for 10, 12 years, I never paid for a show.
1:00:47
I never paid for a drink.
1:00:49
And New York works like that in a way that, like, this, people are totally
1:00:53
foreign to the idea of, like, "I work in a photocopier place, so I can get
1:00:59
you cheap photocopies- Right, right
1:01:00
if you can give me a deal on beef or whatever." That's, that's how
1:01:04
everything is done in New York.
1:01:05
Yeah.
1:01:06
I never got, I was working in the editing industry, and I never really
1:01:10
felt that there was a, there was never a s- you know, uh, not that I didn't
1:01:13
get, you know, jobs from friends and so forth and so on, but it was always
1:01:16
just kind of a feast or famine thing.
1:01:18
And, uh, and yeah, it just got exhausting.
1:01:21
But, uh, so, um, before we go, I have one last question.
1:01:25
What do you think happens after we die- Oh … when this is all over?
1:01:29
That question, to have that question is the most obvious thing in the world- It is
1:01:33
… for people- For sure … uh, in general.
1:01:35
You understand why that question has always been here.
1:01:37
And I feel like some of the greatest minds probably that have lived on
1:01:41
Earth have devoted a lot of their time into trying to puzzle that out.
1:01:44
Mm-hmm.
1:01:45
And I think that that is one of the saddest, dumbest wastes of
1:01:49
time- … that has ever happened because everyone has the answer.
1:01:54
You don't know.
1:01:55
You're not allowed to know, you're not gonna know, and you wait and find out.
1:01:59
That's it.
1:01:59
Sure.
1:02:00
But I'm not saying we- there's any knowledge of it.
1:02:02
I'm asking for a hypothesis.
1:02:04
I don't… Why would I have one?
1:02:05
I- that's the whole thing is not knowing.
1:02:07
People are so uncomfortable with saying that the answer to something
1:02:11
sometimes is, "I don't know." Particularly that question, though.
1:02:14
I mean, I think that there's a lot of questions that saying I don't know
1:02:16
too is different, but, like, this is why a lot of religions exist because,
1:02:19
like, people are uncomfortable with the idea of not knowing what happens.
1:02:22
Yeah.
1:02:22
So you have to have a story.
1:02:24
But that's not all.
1:02:24
They're also uncomfortable with themselves in a way that won't allow them to
1:02:28
believe- Sure … their own feelings, so they fucking fall for some dumbass
1:02:32
religion where you're allowing someone else to dictate what you think about-
1:02:37
Sure … heaven and God and everything.
1:02:39
Right.
1:02:39
That is- And that's how you cut your meat, right?
1:02:41
It is just so obvious and childish and ridiculous.
1:02:45
It's just like foot-stamping anger to be like, "I wanna know." It's
1:02:49
just, I can't wait to find out.
1:02:51
So how do you really feel about it?
1:02:52
I'm, I'm serious.
1:02:52
I'm serious.
1:02:53
I'm kidding.
1:02:53
I've been thinking about this since I was in, before kindergarten.
1:02:56
Right.
1:02:56
I cannot wait to die, but I am really also excited to have the chance to be alive.
1:03:02
Like, everything that happens is because, for some reason, I got this chance,
1:03:06
and hopefully, after I die, I'll find out a little bit more about all that.
1:03:10
I really hope so.
1:03:11
For sure.
1:03:11
And I, in my heart, I believe there's something.
1:03:15
No, I, me- I really do.
1:03:16
I, I kind of do too … but I don't, I don't know.
1:03:18
Yeah.
1:03:18
And I, I don't- Consciousness is so complicated and- … allow myself to-
1:03:21
Yeah … make a hypothesis about that.
1:03:22
Fair enough.
1:03:23
Where, where are you though, uh, spiritually?
1:03:25
Like, where does your spirituality lie these days?
1:03:28
You know, I, I've picked up bits and pieces from everything.
1:03:31
You know, I still find mantras are very helpful for me, which
1:03:35
is something that's big in Hindu- Mm-hmm … faith and everything like that.
1:03:38
But th- those are just little things that, again, that help
1:03:40
me kinda get along with living.
1:03:42
Where my, my spirituality begins and ends pretty mich with, pretty much with,
1:03:46
I, I, I really think there's something.
1:03:49
I really believe that.
1:03:50
But there's facts and there's beliefs, and, like, so many people get confused
1:03:56
and think their beliefs are facts.
1:03:57
For sure.
1:03:58
And that's when it never works.
1:03:59
This is where we ended up we're in the world we're in right now.
1:04:02
And the more complex the belief, I think the more problematic it is
1:04:05
if you think of it as a, as a fact.
1:04:07
So religion obviously has, is very complicated and complex-
1:04:11
Mm-hmm … causes a million problems.
1:04:12
Yep.
1:04:12
And, uh, I feel pretty comfortable with, like, yeah, I
1:04:15
think something's gonna happen.
1:04:16
I, I'm not sure, but I can't wait to find out, and that's as far as I'll allow
1:04:20
myself to even think down those lines.
1:04:22
Jason, thanks so much for doing this, man.
1:04:24
Yeah, no problem.
1:04:24
It was great.
1:04:25
Really appreciate you.
1:04:25
Yeah, it was nice time.
1:04:26
Yeah, dude.
1:04:27
Thanks, man.
1:04:31
And there you go, a little piece of the fascinating life of Jason Wachtelhausen.
1:04:37
You can follow Jason on Instagram at dogmuseum_, that's D-O-G-M-U-S-E-U-M_.
1:04:45
You can follow me on Instagram at onefjef, and you can email the
1:04:49
podcast at onefjefpod@gmail.com.
1:04:53
And I also hope you will like, rate, review, and subscribe on whatever platform
1:04:56
you happen to be consuming this on.
1:04:59
And again, thank you for listening.
1:05:01
I hope you enjoyed it.
1:05:03
If you did enjoy it, I hope you'll listen to it again just a little
1:05:06
bit louder, perhaps in a different environment, maybe in the car
1:05:10
this time, maybe washing dishes.
1:05:13
I don't know.
1:05:13
You pick
1:05:17
If you do listen to it in your car, I recommend you turn it up
1:05:19
very loud and roll the windows down just so everybody else can hear.
1:05:24
And if somebody says to you, "What are you listening to?" You say, "What?" And then
1:05:28
they yell again, "What are you listening to?" And then you say, "What?" And
1:05:32
then they say, "Turn it, turn it down."
1:05:34
So you pause it, and they say, "What are you listening to?" And you say, "Oh, I'm
1:05:39
listening to onefjef." Very good, Jeffrey