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KILLER DAD CHRIS WATTS 'OLD-TIME RELIGION' LURES WOMEN BEHIND BARS · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, killer and Dad Chris Watts
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Speaker 1: using old time religion to lure women while he is
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Speaker 1: behind bars. What I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
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Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 2: All of these women that are that are writing to
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Speaker 2: him and sending him love letters and sending him money
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Speaker 2: through the meal that has overloaded his commissary.
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Speaker 3: That's a monster.
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Speaker 1: That's a real monster. He knew exactly what he was doing.
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Speaker 2: I said, it seems to me like there was a
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Speaker 2: monster inside of you and it was boiling and boiling
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Speaker 2: and it had to come out, and that's why you
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Speaker 2: killed human.
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Speaker 1: Did you see just right there where a sheet was
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Speaker 1: being held up. I'd like to look at that again
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Speaker 1: because I think that's something that all you ladies out
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Speaker 1: there that are writing and corresponding with killer Dad Chris Watts.
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Speaker 1: That is the sheet in which Sanan Watts was bundled
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Speaker 1: up and those poor le had to unfold it. Just
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Speaker 1: quick refresher to Sidney Sumner joining me Crime Stories investigative reporter,
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Speaker 1: could you tell me where again? His wife, Shanan Watts
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Speaker 1: was found buried in a shallow grave after coffin birth
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Speaker 1: of her first boy, Nico, where was this sheet? Sydney Sumner.
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Speaker 4: Well, Bella and Celeste were inside of an oil tank,
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Speaker 4: and about fifty feet away, Shananne Watts was buried face down,
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Speaker 4: wrapped in this sheet, with Nico between her legs, birthing
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Speaker 4: him post mortem in a shallow grace. And Chris Watts
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Speaker 4: said he buried her faith down in a way from
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Speaker 4: the girls, to punish her.
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Speaker 1: Face down in a way from their two little girls,
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Speaker 1: to punish her to doctor Judy Hoe joining us, and
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Speaker 1: I haven't even gotten into his old time religion, luring
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Speaker 1: women behind bars. Boy, do we need a shrink tonight?
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Speaker 1: Doctor Judy Hoe is joining me clinical forensic neuropsychologist. She's
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Speaker 1: the author of the new Rules of Attachment. She's the
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Speaker 1: author of Stop Self Sabotage. And you can find her
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Speaker 1: a doctor Judyhoe dot com, Judyhoeho dot com. Doctor Judy,
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Speaker 1: that's a new fact that many people have just learned
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Speaker 1: that when after he murdered his wife, Shenan Watts, and
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Speaker 1: they're two little girls, Belle and Celeste, he Chris wattson
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Speaker 1: buried her Shenan Watts face down so she couldn't look
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Speaker 1: to where her children were as punishment. I think nothing
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Speaker 1: could hurt me worse than to be forever away from
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Speaker 1: my two children, the twins. That is f up. Okay,
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Speaker 1: that's a Latin term. You rarely hear it in court,
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Speaker 1: but I think you know what it means without a
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Speaker 1: full definition. He buried her face down so she could
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Speaker 1: not gaze in death at her children.
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Speaker 5: Ye see, it's incredible. It's like the last thing that
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Speaker 5: he just had to do to make everything so much worse,
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Speaker 5: as if it already isn't terrible enough. And that just
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Speaker 5: shows you the mindset that he has. He already murdered her,
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Speaker 5: and he decided that she was not going to even
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Speaker 5: be able to have any kind of interaction, any kind
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Speaker 5: of connection with her children. It's like he wanted her
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Speaker 5: to suffer even in death. I mean, you have to
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Speaker 5: think about the mindset of somebody who would plot that
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Speaker 5: as they were doing it and saying, you know what,
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Speaker 5: I don't even want to give her the dignity of
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Speaker 5: facing up. I want to put her face down. So
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Speaker 5: not only is she continuing to suffocate and dead, she's
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Speaker 5: not even going to be able to look at her family.
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Speaker 1: Joining us, Doctor Kendall Crown's renowned chief medical Examiner Terren County.
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Speaker 1: That's fort Worth, never a lack of business there. He
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Speaker 1: is an estatemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine
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Speaker 1: at TCU, and he is the star of a hit
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Speaker 1: new podcast, Mayhem and the Morgue, Doctor Kendall Crowns, thank
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Speaker 1: you for being with us. What is coffin birth?
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Speaker 6: Coffin birth is because when the individual is decomposing and
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Speaker 6: they're pregnant, the gases formed from decompositions swell up the
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Speaker 6: abdomen and start creating pressure. Often this cause bodily fluids
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Speaker 6: to purge out of the mouth and nose, out of
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Speaker 6: the anus and vagina. But since she's pregnant as well,
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Speaker 6: it forced the pressure from these gases forming forces down
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Speaker 6: on the uterus and then expels the fetus out of
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Speaker 6: the vaginal canal, causing basically a birth of the fetus.
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Speaker 1: Okay, I am digesting what you said, and I want
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Speaker 1: to say it in regular people taught when the body decomposes,
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Speaker 1: gases are created. That's why the stomach or the body
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Speaker 1: blows up and the body begins to smell, and those
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Speaker 1: gases force baby Nico through the vaginal canal and she
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Speaker 1: gives birth posthumously after death. Is that correct?
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Speaker 6: That is correct, That's basically what it is.
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Speaker 1: That said Steve Helling, joining US investigative reporter Daily Mail,
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Speaker 1: who got the exclusive on this story. I don't know
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Speaker 1: why you keep saying it's a story, because these are
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Speaker 1: real people. Steve Helling, my longtime friend and cohort. Steve,
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Speaker 1: I want you to watch this hungry.
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Speaker 7: I feel about any of your food now, what kind
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Speaker 7: of thing doesn't matter earlier? Thank you though.
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Speaker 1: Okay, Steve Helling DEI Mail. He's chowing down. He's woofing
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Speaker 1: down pizza while the pictures of Bella and Celeste are
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Speaker 1: right in front of him, and his wife who he murdered,
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Speaker 1: just had coffin birth. He's chowing down. Did you see that?
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Speaker 1: They should have gotten him double yeah.
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Speaker 8: I mean, I've lost my appetite right now, and this
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Speaker 8: isn't my wife and my children. So I can't believe
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Speaker 8: that he's sitting there eating a pizza after all that
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Speaker 8: had happened.
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Speaker 9: But you know, we're.
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Speaker 8: Starting to see all this stuff that he does. He
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Speaker 8: doesn't operate like you and I do. He operates on
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Speaker 8: the sociopathic level.
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Speaker 1: Okay, you're throwing around a medical term. You said he's
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Speaker 1: operating on a what level? Steve Helling?
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Speaker 8: I just said sociopathic? And you know what, I kind
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Speaker 8: of stand by that one. You know, I'm not I'm not.
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Speaker 1: Saying you're wrong. I'm just very impressed. Sociopathic level. Okay,
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Speaker 1: Doctor Judy Hoe. I recall, and I'm projecting, which is
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Speaker 1: dangerous to do when you're analyzing a case. But I
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Speaker 1: recall after my fiance murdered, I lost down to eighty
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Speaker 1: nine pounds. I couldn't eat, I couldn't jurny. I remember
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Speaker 1: the first thing I consumed. It was orange juice out
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Speaker 1: of my mom and dad's fridge, and suddenly I could
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Speaker 1: eat again. Do you see him? Do you see that?
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Speaker 1: I don't think at that point. Correct me if I'm wrong,
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Speaker 1: Sydney Sumner and Steve Helling, I don't think the bodies
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Speaker 1: had even been found yet. The little girls, Bella and Celesti,
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Speaker 1: I think ages one and three. The skin on their arms.
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Speaker 1: Look at her little arms, Doctor Judy Hoe ripped off
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Speaker 1: when he pushed them down a cylindrical oil container that
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Speaker 1: was only about eight to eleven inches wide. He shoved,
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Speaker 1: there you go, he shoved the girl's bodies down that
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Speaker 1: and the skin on their arms came off, and he
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Speaker 1: is chowing down on a pepperoni pizza with sausage on top.
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Speaker 5: I don't get it, Nancy, this isn't a clinical term,
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Speaker 5: but he's obviously a monster. But going back to clinical terms,
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Speaker 5: when somebody may have sociopathic tendencies, there are genetic loads
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Speaker 5: for that, meaning that sometimes their brains are just not
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Speaker 5: stimulated by the things that normal people would be stimulated by,
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Speaker 5: so in this case, murdering his entire family and then
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Speaker 5: it's like his brain doesn't even light up with disgust,
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Speaker 5: with fear, with you, feelings of being disgusted with himself
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Speaker 5: after what he's done. Instead, it's going towards his hunger
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Speaker 5: cues and he's saying, yummy, I want to have my
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Speaker 5: meal right now, and I'm going to enjoy this meal.
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Speaker 5: There's something most likely wrong with the wiring of his
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Speaker 5: brain and how he even perceives experiences on top of
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Speaker 5: everything else that he did, but that also leads him
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Speaker 5: to be able to do these things and then to
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Speaker 5: eat apparently a delicious meal afterwards, as if nothing happened.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Kendel Crown's jumping off. Doctor Judy Hope just told
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Speaker 1: us doctor Crown's, why is it that great grief or
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Speaker 1: anxiety makes a human not want to eat? When they're upset,
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Speaker 1: they can't eat or they feel nauseous.
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Speaker 6: I think it's the emotions that well up and it
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Speaker 6: causes feelings in your stomach and in your brain. It
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Speaker 6: just causes the drive to eat to be depressed or
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Speaker 6: suppressed by that. Most people that Crowns I.
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Speaker 1: Could have said that, and I'm just a trial lawyer.
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Speaker 1: When you're upset, you don't want to eat, That's basically
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Speaker 1: what you said. But there's got to be something metabolic,
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Speaker 1: something physical that makes you not want to eat. And
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Speaker 1: I'm getting at he just shoved his daughters down those
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Speaker 1: cylindrical containers. He buried his wife face down to give
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Speaker 1: birth post mortem. His son, baby Nico, is lying in
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Speaker 1: the grave with her mother right there, and he's chowing down.
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Speaker 1: I'm trying to find an answer.
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Speaker 6: Well, I don't have a good one for you, Nancy.
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Speaker 6: I can't explain why he's able to eat after he
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Speaker 6: murdered his family in that manner.
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Speaker 1: So I met a laws why doctor Callen Crown's let
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Speaker 1: me see him this is a first a medical doctor
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Speaker 1: telling me I don't know the answer. I'm really impressed.
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Speaker 1: I'd rather tell me that and make something up or
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Speaker 1: just bluff your way through it. So maybe if it's
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Speaker 1: not physical, which you would know about if it was physical,
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Speaker 1: what about it, doctor Gdi? How why does that work?
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Speaker 1: Because he's obviously not upset at all.
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Speaker 5: Well, Nancy, when we are in our eat and digest mode,
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Speaker 5: which is when we experience hunger cues and when we
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Speaker 5: want to have, you know, food, when we have an appetite,
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Speaker 5: it's because our bodies are not in fight or flight, right,
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Speaker 5: our bodies are not being provoked. It's not feeling threatened,
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Speaker 5: it's feeling relaxed. It's feeling like it wants to And
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Speaker 5: clearly this is what this man is doing. After the
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Speaker 5: heinous crimes he's consumed, he's so easily able to settle
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Speaker 5: back in to that rest and relaxation phase. This is
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Speaker 5: why when people are stressed out when trauma happens, they
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Speaker 5: can't sleep. It's because of the fight or flight system
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Speaker 5: kicking in. Both systems can't be active at once, and
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Speaker 5: yet his rest and relaxation SPA system is on, which
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Speaker 5: is what allows him to be able to eat in
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Speaker 5: this state, and that is why it's so disgusting and egregious,
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Speaker 5: and why he may very well be a sociopath. These
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Speaker 5: are the things that we look for, is does somebody
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Speaker 5: have essentially zero emotional response to trauma, to blood, to violence,
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Speaker 5: to the point where they can still sleep well at night,
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Speaker 5: to the point where they can still eat. Apparently, as
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Speaker 5: I mentioned, the most delicious meal of his life, he
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Speaker 5: seems to be really enjoying.
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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Randolph Rice joining me, a
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Speaker 1: former felony prosecutor, current criminal defense and civil lawyer at
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Speaker 1: Rice Law, a firm founded by him. Randolph Rice, thank
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Speaker 1: you for being with us. You know how many times
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Speaker 1: I would play that front of the jury. The jury
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Speaker 1: would probably be sicking with their stomachs looking at the
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Speaker 1: crime scene photos and seeing that sheet unfolded. I was
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Speaker 1: just showing. But it's not bothering him. You know who
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Speaker 1: reminds me of Randolph Rice? And you're gonna hate this,
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Speaker 1: Scott Peterson When the detectives and they told it to
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Speaker 1: me here on Crime Stories. One night, when the detectives
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Speaker 1: came to Scott Peterson and said, Scott, the bodies that
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Speaker 1: washed up at San Francisco Bay. We just got back
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Speaker 1: the DNA and it's Lacey and your son Connor. Within
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Speaker 1: about twelve minutes they were in the car. He asked
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Speaker 1: him to pull over. I believe it's to an in
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Speaker 1: and out so he could get a double double with
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Speaker 1: cheese and a milkshake. Mm hmm. That just rubbed me
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Speaker 1: the wrong way. Same thing here, what do you do
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Speaker 1: with your client? You can't help him now. He did
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Speaker 1: that before you got hired, chowing down Pepperoni sausage, Luw Works,
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Speaker 1: wild bellots less photos are right in front of him
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Speaker 1: and Nancy.
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Speaker 10: You're exactly right.
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Speaker 11: That's what prosecutors would have shown that this case going
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Speaker 11: to trial immediately was this. This is the indifference that
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Speaker 11: he has towards the death of his children. And that's
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Speaker 11: exhibit A when it comes to trying to show or
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Speaker 11: showing at least a jury if he had gone to trial,
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Speaker 11: that he is just a monster.
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Speaker 9: In side of the other guests.
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Speaker 1: Have said, Okay, you do know that you're a defense attorney, right,
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Speaker 1: you haven't traveled into some alternate universe. What do you
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Speaker 1: do with something like that? What do you say to
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Speaker 1: a jury? They look at that, and then they look
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Speaker 1: over at you and are like, what what do you.
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Speaker 11: Say, Nancy. That's one of the hardest things to deal
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Speaker 11: with when you've got situations like this evidence that you
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Speaker 11: just cannot get around. And that's when you ultimately tell
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Speaker 11: your clients, this may be a case that we have
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Speaker 11: to take a flea on because we're not gonna win
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Speaker 11: based on a jury seeing how you are just indifferent
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Speaker 11: to these photographs.
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Speaker 1: Randolph Rice, I'm gonna help you. I'm gonna throw you
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Speaker 1: a crutch so you can limp out of this conversation.
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Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of stress eating that? He was
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Speaker 1: so upset, he was just like a little gobbling it down?
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Speaker 1: What about that? Or here's a great one from the
15:35
Speaker 1: back to Scott Peterson. Just because he's a low life crud,
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Speaker 1: a cheater, a philander, and a liar doesn't mean he's
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Speaker 1: a killer. Just because he's pigging out doesn't mean he
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Speaker 1: committed murder. I'm helping you, Randolph, grab the live wrapped
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Speaker 1: I'm throwing to you.
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Speaker 11: Those are all great defenses, and I think here's one more.
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Speaker 11: The fact that he felt so comfortable in that examination
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Speaker 11: room that he was able to eat shows that he's
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Speaker 11: innocent altogether. That's the argument that I'd make in front
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Speaker 11: of the jury, and you.
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Speaker 1: Obviously said that with a straight face. Sherlyn Catle is
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Speaker 1: joining us, author of The Murders of Christopher Watts and
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Speaker 1: The Many Faces of Christopher Watts, a five year update,
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Speaker 1: and I hope you've got a third book in you
16:19
Speaker 1: because there's so much men. Starting with old Time Religion.
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Speaker 1: I had that in my head all night. I couldn't
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Speaker 1: get it out of my head. Have you ever had
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Speaker 1: that happen? You remember that old song? It was good
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Speaker 1: for a grandma and grandpa. It's good enough for me.
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Speaker 1: Old time religion. He's using it to lure women into
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Speaker 1: his love trap. But before I get to that, who
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Speaker 1: is this guy that chows down on a Pepperoni pizza
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Speaker 1: while he's looking at the children he murdered?
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Speaker 12: Well, two things. He detached himself, I believe. And I'm
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Speaker 12: not a doctor, but I'm am spending time with him.
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Speaker 12: I can see that he is able to detach himself
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Speaker 12: from the situation. And he told me once that he
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Speaker 12: never occurred to him that he would get caught. So
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Speaker 12: when he was sitting in this integragation, he didn't. He
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Speaker 12: hadn't had his lie detect or touch yet, so in
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Speaker 12: his mind he was still okay. They were treating him nice,
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Speaker 12: you know, the police officers, and they knew how to
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Speaker 12: they knew how to work him because they felt sorry
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Speaker 12: for him. If you're knownice, she taps him on the
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Speaker 12: back and she's feeling sorry for him. They know how
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Speaker 12: to get everything out of him because he's a player,
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Speaker 12: and so he's easily played.
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Speaker 13: I believe you're very hungry.
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Speaker 7: Yeah, I feel about any of your food now what
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Speaker 7: kind of like?
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Speaker 14: It doesn't matter really.
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Speaker 7: Thank you though.
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Speaker 3: Okay, But these women they want to marry him, they
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Speaker 3: want to support him, they want to visit with him,
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Speaker 3: they want to talk to him on the phone.
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Speaker 1: I mean, he may smile, but there's something cold in
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Speaker 1: his eyes. What an artful deceiver he is, you know,
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Speaker 1: that's what the devil is often called the deceiver.
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Speaker 8: We can hear each other anywhere in our home. We
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Speaker 8: put our carriers next to the wall, or there's a bugget.
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Speaker 1: And you can hear like a phone.
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Speaker 10: At the Dodge Correctional Institution, Chris Watts can hear adjoining
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Speaker 10: cellmate Dylan Tallman, imprisoned on drug charges since nineteen and
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Speaker 10: the two become close. Tollman claims Watts truly found God
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Speaker 10: watching a Nancy Grace program on the murders of his
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Speaker 10: pregnant wife and daughters. Tollman says as Great addresses Watts
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Speaker 10: through the TV while photos of Shane Ann Bella and
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Speaker 10: Cels flash on screen. Watts falls to his knees and
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Speaker 10: confesses his sins. Tallman calls the moment Watts rock bottom.
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Speaker 1: You were seeing clips from a Lifetime movie Network movie
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Speaker 1: about Watts in Shanan. Wait a minute, Steve Helling joining
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Speaker 1: us Daily Mail. So he claims he found the Lord.
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Speaker 1: And I am not pooh pooing that I'm happy he
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Speaker 1: found the Lord and he can get complete forgiveness from
19:37
Speaker 1: the Lord. That does not mean he gets out of jail.
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Speaker 1: So he claims he found the Lord or is it
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Speaker 1: the friend Tallman after watching one of our programs.
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Speaker 8: Dylan Tallman was the one who told me that you
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Speaker 8: were talking about him and they were watching it and
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Speaker 8: you addressed him through the according to Dylan, and said,
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Speaker 8: Chris Watts, you know what is wrong with you, basically,
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Speaker 8: And it was the moment that Chris allegedly, according to
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Speaker 8: Dylan dropped to his knees, confessed his sins.
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Speaker 9: Became a Christian.
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Speaker 8: Whatever you said, convicted him enough that he decided to
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Speaker 8: make a conversion.
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Speaker 1: Okay, well maybe that will get me into heaven. Doctor
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Speaker 1: Judy Hope again, clinical forensic neuro psychologist, author of multiple books,
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Speaker 1: Doctor Judy, I've seen a lot of behind bars conversions
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Speaker 1: and I'm happy for them. But for this guy, Chris Watts,
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Speaker 1: I find it hard to believe.
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Speaker 5: You have to be a bit spectacle, especially given what
20:47
Speaker 5: we've seen of his behavior so far. Is this just
20:50
Speaker 5: another ploy? Is this just another manipulation. We haven't even
20:55
Speaker 5: really gotten into all of the women who he appears
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Speaker 5: to have been manipulating behind bars, and so he can
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Speaker 5: be a very convincing storyteller, right, And like you said, Nancy,
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Speaker 5: if someone has truly converted has to be forgiven. Is
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Speaker 5: trying to be a better person, found God. That's awesome
21:12
Speaker 5: if that's really happened. But based on what we've seen
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Speaker 5: so far, and I'm just talking about behaviors only not
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Speaker 5: that convinced, really, not that convinced.
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Speaker 1: Okay, behind bars conversion or is Wat's using his old
21:27
Speaker 1: time religion conversion to lure women. Take a lesson to
21:31
Speaker 1: it his best, he says.
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Speaker 15: Tolman says Watts refuses to discuss his crimes outside of
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Speaker 15: context of faith. Comparing his actions to Bible stories, Watts
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Speaker 15: mostly focuses on the sin of adultery, very seldom mentioning
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Speaker 15: the actual murders. Watts compares a fair partner, Nicole Kessinger,
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Speaker 15: whom he convinced his marriage was over, to Bethsheba and Jezebel.
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Speaker 15: Loats writes of Nicole.
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Speaker 14: She is of evil spirits, like Jezebel. The words of
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Speaker 14: a harlot have brought me low. Her flattering speech was
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Speaker 14: like drops of honey that pierced my heart and soul.
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Speaker 14: Little did I know that all her guests were in
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Speaker 14: the chamber of death. How did I let this happen?
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Speaker 14: The blessings you have bestowed upon me were right in
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Speaker 14: front of me, and still I followed the perfume of
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Speaker 14: a strange woman.
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Speaker 1: Okay, what did I just hear? My ears are bleeding,
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Speaker 1: Sidney Sumner, He is blaming murdering his wife at two ladies?
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Speaker 1: Are you listening? You that are writing him and patting
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Speaker 1: his commissary account? Okay, Sidney, help me. He's blaming the
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Speaker 1: murders that he committed on his wife and two girls
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Speaker 1: on who his wife, Shananne and his lover Nicole Cassinger.
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Speaker 4: Well, we got two layers. So he originally tries to
22:57
Speaker 4: blame these murders on Shanan. He says he came home
23:01
Speaker 4: told Shanan he wanted a divorce, and she turned around
23:05
Speaker 4: and killed their children, which is why he killed her
23:09
Speaker 4: and then got rid of all of the bodies. So
23:10
Speaker 4: that was the original story he tried to convince everyone
23:14
Speaker 4: is what truly happened. And now that he's been convicted
23:18
Speaker 4: and everyone kind of knew, there's no way Shennan killed
23:21
Speaker 4: her own children. He then flips it on Nicole Kessinger
23:26
Speaker 4: and says it's her fault. If he never had met her,
23:30
Speaker 4: if they'd never been dating, he never would have killed
23:33
Speaker 4: his family.
23:35
Speaker 1: Ooh, there's Nicole Kessinger and speaking of Bathsheba. Now he's
23:40
Speaker 1: blaming when none of this is okay, there's a booty
23:43
Speaker 1: shot when none of this is working, Randolph Rice, I
23:46
Speaker 1: don't guess you've ever used a biblical defense. He begins
23:49
Speaker 1: to blame Bathsheba and Jezebel. You know, Beth Sheeba is right,
23:56
Speaker 1: King David David and goliaths? David. Why do guys your
24:03
Speaker 1: clients always blame the woman. Okay, there's Eve, It's her fault.
24:08
Speaker 1: She listened to the snake. Okay, now it's best Sheba.
24:11
Speaker 1: Now it's Jezebel. Who's next? Salome who danced in front
24:15
Speaker 1: of the king and then he chopped off John the
24:17
Speaker 1: Baptist's head and served it on a silver platter.
24:21
Speaker 11: Who's next, Nancy? I think this is all just coming
24:26
Speaker 11: from a jailhouse snitch who wants to get his fifteen
24:29
Speaker 11: minutes of fame. And I'm not really sure that that's
24:31
Speaker 11: actually got much validity as to what his real beliefs are.
24:34
Speaker 11: And to be honest with you, this may be is
24:36
Speaker 11: his finding of God, this religious experience he's had, maybe
24:40
Speaker 11: a basis for his defense attorneys to go back to
24:42
Speaker 11: court and ask for some sort of modification of his sentence.
24:45
Speaker 11: If he truly is asking for forgiveness.
24:49
Speaker 1: Put him up? What because he has converted to Christianity?
24:54
Speaker 1: According to him, the narcissist, psychopath, the sociopath him that
24:58
Speaker 1: will say anything and woofed out of pizza looking at
25:01
Speaker 1: the photos of his dead children. That's going to get
25:04
Speaker 1: an order modification, which means a sentence reduction.
25:07
Speaker 11: How Nancy, it's always worth a try if there's some
25:11
Speaker 11: sort of change in your life, some sort of thing
25:13
Speaker 11: that you have come forward and been able to maybe
25:15
Speaker 11: make some admission or some acceptance of a guilt here,
25:20
Speaker 11: that it may be worth going back to the court
25:22
Speaker 11: and asking for some sort of modification of this sentence.
25:25
Speaker 1: Always the woman's fault. I hope his next judge is
25:28
Speaker 1: in a woman.
25:28
Speaker 10: Watts blames the women in his life for his family's demise,
25:32
Speaker 10: which he calls the tragedy. Watts first blames pregnant wife
25:36
Speaker 10: Shannann for the murders, claiming she strangled Bella and celest
25:39
Speaker 10: after he asked for a divorce and he killed her
25:41
Speaker 10: in a rage. Wats eventually admits he killed his daughters
25:45
Speaker 10: out of a desire to clear Shannan's name. Watts then
25:49
Speaker 10: places the blame on Kessinger's temptation, claiming she enticed him
25:53
Speaker 10: into his murderous spree.
25:57
Speaker 3: There's so many women think that he's good looking to
25:59
Speaker 3: the points at all these women that have written him, Nancy,
26:03
Speaker 3: they send him money in the mail. He has a
26:06
Speaker 3: fan club.
26:07
Speaker 12: My takeaway is that there's something in him that he
26:10
Speaker 12: thinks seeking just rule any woman.
26:14
Speaker 15: While Tallman says Watts is genuinely a man of faith,
26:17
Speaker 15: he admits Watts still has an incredible weakness for women.
26:21
Speaker 15: Watts quickly becomes infatuated, even obsessed, with female pen pals,
26:25
Speaker 15: writing them fifteen page letters, front and back. Hours poured
26:29
Speaker 15: into these relationships keeps. Watt's commissary account patted multiple women
26:33
Speaker 15: making regular contributions.
26:36
Speaker 1: Okay, now we're hearing this from a guy, Dylan Tallman,
26:42
Speaker 1: who is hey, listen.
26:45
Speaker 16: Chris Watts lost all his prison privileges for two weeks
26:49
Speaker 16: after his underwear is found in a man's cell. An
26:52
Speaker 16: incident report that reveals Watt's underwear and petroleum jelly were
26:56
Speaker 16: found in a fellow inmate, Dylan Tallman's cell.
27:00
Speaker 1: Okay, not judging, don't care. This is from podcast lock
27:04
Speaker 1: Up twenty three and one Steve Helling. Chris Wats is
27:12
Speaker 1: underwear and best selling and Tolman's jail Celle what I mean.
27:19
Speaker 8: I've spent a lot of time talking to Dylan Tollman,
27:22
Speaker 8: and I don't know exactly what that's all about. I
27:26
Speaker 8: don't think that there's anything there there just on based
27:29
Speaker 8: on what I don't know. I can say that Chris,
27:36
Speaker 8: you never can tell. Chris will do whatever Chris needs
27:38
Speaker 8: to do to you know ingratiate himself with people, whatever
27:42
Speaker 8: that means. And so he decided that Dylan was somebody
27:46
Speaker 8: who he could write books with, who he could kind
27:48
Speaker 8: of use as an outside conduit and whatever Chris was
27:52
Speaker 8: trying to do.
27:53
Speaker 9: I don't know.
27:55
Speaker 8: I have no idea why his underwear would be in
27:58
Speaker 8: in Chris's cell. I don't know, but I don't think
28:01
Speaker 8: it's what everybody think.
28:03
Speaker 1: You are an investigative reporter, right.
28:06
Speaker 9: Yes, well, I mean here's the thing.
28:07
Speaker 1: Both Chris and you can figure out why Watts's underwear
28:11
Speaker 1: and Vasellaine were in Tallman's sale diagram.
28:16
Speaker 8: Hellings, I would actually prefer that you don't. But yeah,
28:21
Speaker 8: I mean, I understand what you're saying, uh, And I
28:24
Speaker 8: don't know. You know, they both have said multiple times
28:27
Speaker 8: there was nothing sexual between them, and Chris really does
28:31
Speaker 8: seem to be much more fixated on the women and
28:33
Speaker 8: on the ladies. But then prison does things to people,
28:36
Speaker 8: so I can't answer that question.
28:40
Speaker 1: Okay. Sidney Sumner joining US Crime Stories investigative reporter may
28:44
Speaker 1: have an innocent, well quasi innocent explanation that Watts went
28:50
Speaker 1: fishing from sale to sale.
28:53
Speaker 4: Right, So their official story behind what happened here is
28:57
Speaker 4: that Paulman would be being punished. He was not allowed
29:02
Speaker 4: to leave a cell. He was not allowed to have
29:04
Speaker 4: access to commissary items, so Watts was helping him out
29:09
Speaker 4: by ordering commissary items for Tallman and then using dental
29:15
Speaker 4: flash to throw them down the hallway underneath the cell
29:20
Speaker 4: door so Tallman could pull that item in and use it.
29:23
Speaker 4: So Watts was ordering commissary things. The items were arriving
29:28
Speaker 4: with his name on them, then he was giving them
29:31
Speaker 4: to Tallman for his personal use, and when Tallman got
29:34
Speaker 4: caught with these items, it made for this embarrassing headline.
29:39
Speaker 1: I want to get back to luring women with old
29:42
Speaker 1: time religion and joining me now, Cheryl Lynn catl She
29:46
Speaker 1: is the author of the Murders of Christopher Watts and
29:49
Speaker 1: The Many Faces of Christopher Watts, a five year update.
29:53
Speaker 1: Who are these women, Cheryl Lynn?
29:59
Speaker 12: They come from every walk of life, and what is
30:02
Speaker 12: interesting is that many of them will send me a
30:09
Speaker 12: message to messenger telling me that they are writing with
30:14
Speaker 12: him and talking to him on the phone, and what
30:16
Speaker 12: should they do. And it doesn't matter how many times
30:19
Speaker 12: that I tell them, get away, don't do this, stay
30:24
Speaker 12: away from him. They end up going that direction anyway.
30:28
Speaker 12: When he gets them to a certain point. One woman
30:32
Speaker 12: divorced her husband over him. When he gets them to
30:37
Speaker 12: a certain point, then he tells them this can't go
30:41
Speaker 12: anywhere for you, and I'm breaking up with you. And
30:44
Speaker 12: he goes on to the next And he has several
30:46
Speaker 12: women at a time that he's writing to, writing long
30:49
Speaker 12: letters to and yeah, and it's sad because they just
30:57
Speaker 12: fall for him. They send him money and they they
31:00
Speaker 12: just and they feel like he's godly and he's meeting
31:03
Speaker 12: their needs spiritually and that he comforts them and he
31:08
Speaker 12: knows all the right things to say. And by the way,
31:10
Speaker 12: he has used this religion thing way before he met Tollman,
31:19
Speaker 12: because my letters to him from the very beginning, which
31:23
Speaker 12: was only six months after the murders, he talks about
31:27
Speaker 12: finding God. That's how he started out with me. So
31:31
Speaker 12: I think, you know, a lot of it is just
31:34
Speaker 12: that's one of the things that he has found that
31:36
Speaker 12: works for him. Maybe it works for him with women
31:40
Speaker 12: and men I don't know, but yeah, he's very very
31:45
Speaker 12: much always sending Bible scriptures to these women, always, you know,
31:50
Speaker 12: comparing himself to someone in the Bible, often Paul. One
31:56
Speaker 12: woman was convinced he's the modern day Paul in the Bible,
32:01
Speaker 12: from the Bible. So yeah, it's okay.
32:04
Speaker 1: Wait a minute and put her up, please, Sherily, Anne.
32:06
Speaker 1: You mean Paul formerly Saw who murdered Christians. Saw, the
32:12
Speaker 1: persecutor for the Roman Empire, turned Paul after he was
32:18
Speaker 1: blinded by the light and he would write letters from
32:21
Speaker 1: behind bars. Okay, he's comparing himself to Paul. Correct and
32:30
Speaker 1: women fall for that. Yes, you should do okay, straight
32:35
Speaker 1: out to doctor Judy Hoe. We need a shrink, doctor
32:38
Speaker 1: Judy Hoe, clinical forensic neuropsychologist. What okay, I'd like to
32:43
Speaker 1: say what is wrong with him? But what is wrong
32:44
Speaker 1: with them?
32:48
Speaker 5: Nancy? I think that when people get involved with known criminals,
32:54
Speaker 5: there are some behavioral patterns. Of course, they can indeed
32:57
Speaker 5: come from all different walks of life, but I think
32:59
Speaker 5: that they're are some key characteristics, like wanting to feel special,
33:05
Speaker 5: especially through maybe changing someone who may be misunderstood by
33:10
Speaker 5: society or may actually truly be innocent or are trying
33:14
Speaker 5: to turn a new leaf, and they want to be
33:15
Speaker 5: that special person that changes that person because it makes
33:18
Speaker 5: them feel better about themselves. Also, sometimes these are individuals
33:22
Speaker 5: who have their own trauma histories don't understand what a
33:25
Speaker 5: healthy relationship looks like. To them, this is a healthy relationship.
33:29
Speaker 5: It also happens sometimes to individuals who are looking for purpose,
33:33
Speaker 5: for some kind of leadership in their life, and now
33:35
Speaker 5: they've fallen behind this person who seems like he's a leader.
33:38
Speaker 5: But do you see the way that he talks to
33:40
Speaker 5: these women, the quotes that you've been talking about all
33:43
Speaker 5: throughout this show, where essentially once he gets them in
33:46
Speaker 5: his grasp, then it's all about you are subordinate to me,
33:50
Speaker 5: you are the evil one. I'm being tempted by you.
33:53
Speaker 5: None of this is my fault. And people fall for
33:57
Speaker 5: that because it's an ideology that at least guides their
34:01
Speaker 5: lives and their behavior, and they're looking to this guy
34:03
Speaker 5: to help them be their moral compass. That's clearly concerning.
34:07
Speaker 5: But when these individuals are in these relationships, they don't
34:10
Speaker 5: see that. They only see the love bombing. They only
34:13
Speaker 5: see that now they feel special and that they have
34:16
Speaker 5: something that's guiding their every day and all of their steps.
34:27
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. You know Randolph Rice, a
34:34
Speaker 1: veteran trial lawyer, former felony prosecutor, are now criminal defense
34:38
Speaker 1: and civil attorney. I've seen it in court a million times.
34:41
Speaker 1: I didn't understand it the way doctor G. D. Hoe
34:43
Speaker 1: is describing it. But I would say wives. I would
34:48
Speaker 1: say wives and girlfriends or girlfriends even ex's show up
34:52
Speaker 1: in court. When I would have a guy that had
34:54
Speaker 1: killed multiple people to support him. It's like they don't
34:58
Speaker 1: hear any of the evidence. Blah blah blah blah. In
35:01
Speaker 1: their head. All they hear is I plead not guilty.
35:05
Speaker 1: Have you noticed that phenomenon? These women are willing to
35:09
Speaker 1: believe anything.
35:11
Speaker 11: Well, you're seeing it now in the Luigi Mangioni case
35:14
Speaker 11: where they have where he's got people following him around,
35:16
Speaker 11: sending him letters, writing him, sending him commissary. This seems
35:20
Speaker 11: to be a common pattern. Now, Whereas the doctor Hoe
35:23
Speaker 11: mentioned that there's some people that just don't have healthy
35:25
Speaker 11: relationships and they're ultimately attaching themselves to killers. So that
35:29
Speaker 11: is not a good way I think to live a life.
35:31
Speaker 11: If you're somebody looking for a partner out.
35:34
Speaker 1: There, all of you ladies that think you have a
35:40
Speaker 1: crush on Chris Watts, I want you to hear and
35:44
Speaker 1: watch his demeanor. What he first said when Sinan, his wife,
35:50
Speaker 1: the mother of his three children, went missing. This is
35:52
Speaker 1: what he said.
35:53
Speaker 14: First, she'd tell you anything about leaving, moving out, not moving.
35:57
Speaker 6: Out, I mean plast I'm talking through this morning.
36:00
Speaker 5: She says she's gonna take the kids.
36:02
Speaker 14: To her friend's house, and then she that's where she
36:04
Speaker 14: was going to be.
36:05
Speaker 11: And then I've texted her today.
36:08
Speaker 14: I've never heard anything but the cars, cars here.
36:11
Speaker 6: Cars here, unless somebody came picked her up.
36:14
Speaker 11: But the people that I know, nobody's heard from here.
36:19
Speaker 7: Nobody see her.
36:21
Speaker 1: And then he said.
36:22
Speaker 7: This, Bella, Celeste, if you're out there, just just come back,
36:28
Speaker 7: Like if somebody has her, just please bring her back.
36:32
Speaker 7: I need to see everybody. I need to see everybody again.
36:35
Speaker 7: This house is not complete with without anybody here.
36:39
Speaker 6: Please bring it back.
36:40
Speaker 1: That from our friends at Denver seven. And then finally.
36:45
Speaker 14: This sure she heard them?
36:53
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, you know that, don't her?
37:02
Speaker 13: You're her? Did they leave after that night?
37:08
Speaker 15: Now?
37:13
Speaker 7: So she started her with the games favor.
37:18
Speaker 1: So that last clip was him telling his father that
37:22
Speaker 1: he killed Shenan after she murdered her children, just when
37:25
Speaker 1: she's about eight or nine months pregnant. And then ultimately this.
37:34
Speaker 13: Are they in the tanks?
37:37
Speaker 7: Can somebody who doesn't know what they're doing helping those?
37:40
Speaker 13: Okay, you don't in the tanks?
37:42
Speaker 7: It's a mister of oil.
37:44
Speaker 16: And later.
37:51
Speaker 13: Tell me that she found out here? Where's that from?
37:56
Speaker 7: That was what Shanelle was drapped in.
37:58
Speaker 13: What about the girlies when they re insipportunities? Don't their
38:06
Speaker 13: blankets or anything? Where did their blankets and toys except.
38:13
Speaker 7: Probably lend or something like that.
38:18
Speaker 13: Where did you shut them or put them?
38:29
Speaker 16: They got.
38:31
Speaker 10: In a shocking display, cheers rock as pictures of Luigi
38:35
Speaker 10: Mangoni on screen as the DJ plays Miley Cyrus he
38:39
Speaker 10: would be the one the crowd cheering photos of Luigi Mangoni.
38:44
Speaker 10: The cheers get even louder as man Joni's recent booking
38:47
Speaker 10: photos are shown. Man Joni has become a sex symbol
38:51
Speaker 10: since his arrest, and a fundraiser has raised over one
38:54
Speaker 10: hundred thousand dollars for legal fees, and Veronica says, I
38:58
Speaker 10: need him so bad, No, like so bad, so so
39:02
Speaker 10: bad okay, so I would visit him in prison and
39:05
Speaker 10: bacon cookies.
39:06
Speaker 9: Maybe perhaps more, but I haven't thought that.
39:08
Speaker 1: Far ahead that f I'm at NESSO ten twenty seven
39:12
Speaker 1: on TikTok and Jimmy Kimmel Live. So it's history repeating
39:17
Speaker 1: itself to Steve Helling joining us, I'm deally mail who
39:21
Speaker 1: first correct the code on this. Luigi Mangioni, Christopher Watts, same.
39:28
Speaker 9: Thing, same thing, except on some twisted level.
39:34
Speaker 8: I can say, okay with Luigi maybe if you think
39:37
Speaker 8: that he was making a political statement. I don't know,
39:39
Speaker 8: but Chris Watts was just evil, Like, there's no broader
39:44
Speaker 8: statement that was being made here. There was no altruism,
39:47
Speaker 8: there was no revenge. It was just just an awful,
39:51
Speaker 8: grizzly murder.
39:52
Speaker 1: Oh did you somehow state Luigi Mangioni committed murder? But
40:00
Speaker 1: it's okay because of people, right, what you just said.
40:07
Speaker 9: Okay, well, don't put don't put those words in my mouth.
40:09
Speaker 8: What I am saying is that I understand there.
40:15
Speaker 9: Are people who can make.
40:18
Speaker 8: Allowances in their head for other crimes, but with Chris Watts,
40:23
Speaker 8: there's just there's no way that a sane person can
40:27
Speaker 8: explain away what he did in anything other than being evil.
40:32
Speaker 9: There's just no possible way.
40:35
Speaker 8: And so the idea that all these women, and there's
40:38
Speaker 8: lots of them, by the way, and they've started coming
40:41
Speaker 8: forward basically when he breaks up with them. Then they
40:45
Speaker 8: come to the media, they're like, hey, Steve, want to
40:47
Speaker 8: see some letters. And the thing is, I've seen enough
40:50
Speaker 8: of Chris Watts's hand written ages. I've seen hundreds of pages.
40:54
Speaker 8: That is pretty easy to look at it and be like, Okay,
40:56
Speaker 8: that's that's another one of Chris's things. And you know,
41:00
Speaker 8: the latest one who came to me, she just had
41:02
Speaker 8: all these letters where he's you know, kind of comparing
41:05
Speaker 8: himself with his Bible saying he compares himself to Bible characters.
41:10
Speaker 9: He says that he a big thing is he didn't
41:14
Speaker 9: do anything.
41:15
Speaker 8: He doesn't say he didn't do anything wrong, but what
41:17
Speaker 8: he does say is that Nicole Kessinger kind of tempted him.
41:22
Speaker 9: It's very much the woman. The woman did this to me.
41:26
Speaker 9: The woman made me do this.
41:27
Speaker 8: And there's you know, one thing to do with when
41:30
Speaker 8: it comes to, you know, converting to Christianity and that
41:33
Speaker 8: type of thing is you got to accept your own sin.
41:36
Speaker 8: You got to you got to be able to say
41:39
Speaker 8: I did this and take some ownership, and he doesn't
41:41
Speaker 8: really do that. It's mostly the woman did this, the
41:44
Speaker 8: woman did that. But you're kind of hot, so let's
41:46
Speaker 8: keep talking. That's kind of where where he is.
41:50
Speaker 1: You're scaring me because it's kind of like you're getting
41:53
Speaker 1: into his character and you're explaining it a little too well. Okay,
41:58
Speaker 1: there are women that go beyond the is Watt's phenomena
42:01
Speaker 1: and they actually marry killers.
42:04
Speaker 10: The day Eric and Lyle Menindez are sentenced to life
42:07
Speaker 10: in prison, Lyle Menendez also ties the Knot with model
42:10
Speaker 10: Anna Ericson via speakerphone, with Menindez and an attorney as
42:15
Speaker 10: their witnesses. The relationship is short lived, Ericson filing for
42:19
Speaker 10: divorce when she discovers her husband is writing love letters
42:22
Speaker 10: to other women. Just two years later, Menindez mary's again,
42:26
Speaker 10: this time to magazine editor Rebecca Snead. After twenty years,
42:30
Speaker 10: Sneed announces their separation, denies the split is due to
42:34
Speaker 10: another affair.
42:35
Speaker 1: That was about Lyle Menendez, who murders his mom and dad.
42:39
Speaker 1: The brother Eric Menndez, multiple relationships, marriage behind bars, the works. Okay,
42:45
Speaker 1: then of course I have to bring up Yourna Vanderslut.
42:50
Speaker 10: Hours after your on, van der Slute accepts twenty five
42:53
Speaker 10: thousand dollars from Natalie Holloway's family, then lies about her body.
42:57
Speaker 10: Vander Slute is gambling in Lima. There meet Stephanie Flores,
43:01
Speaker 10: daughter of a prominent Peruvian businessman, at Hotel Tac. Vandr
43:05
Speaker 10: Slute attacks Flores, beating and strangling her to death. Her
43:09
Speaker 10: body found three days later.
43:11
Speaker 15: Lady Figaroa, a young mother, visits a relative in Pure
43:15
Speaker 15: Discorda's prison, but starts spending more time with in meat
43:18
Speaker 15: Uran Vandersloot. It isn't long before Figaroa is pregnant with
43:22
Speaker 15: vander Slute's baby. Figaroa and vander Slute Mary in his
43:26
Speaker 15: cell after almost ten years together, vander Slute wants a divorce,
43:30
Speaker 15: training Figaroa for younger prettier Eva Pocohuonco, who smuggles him drugs.
43:36
Speaker 1: Doctor Judy Hoe, we have heard Steve Helling describing all
43:42
Speaker 1: these women that are writing Chris Watts and how he
43:44
Speaker 1: takes comfort and solace from those letters. I don't think
43:48
Speaker 1: that's all he's getting from those letters.
43:51
Speaker 5: No, he's getting sexual gratification, and when people are this
43:56
Speaker 5: is again, Nancy, I feel I feel like a broken record.
43:58
Speaker 5: This is not how this is not the first time
44:00
Speaker 5: this is happening. But people who may be psychopaths and
44:03
Speaker 5: social paths also get sexual gratification from things that other
44:07
Speaker 5: people would usually find morbid, not at all sexually exciting,
44:12
Speaker 5: and this is their way of stimulating their brain, which
44:14
Speaker 5: oftentimes have lower activation thresholds. So what that means is
44:18
Speaker 5: they need something really out of norm really sometimes even
44:23
Speaker 5: grow tesque, disgusting, morally just putrid, to be able to
44:28
Speaker 5: get excited, not just sexually excited, but excited in general.
44:32
Speaker 5: We get excited when we have a great meal. That's
44:35
Speaker 5: a normal person. These individuals, that's not enough for them.
44:38
Speaker 5: They need something really really out of the box and
44:41
Speaker 5: sometimes often disgusting, to be excited about life, excited sexually,
44:47
Speaker 5: to feel feelings of joy. So it's pretty twisted.
44:52
Speaker 1: To Cheryl Lynn Catle, author of The Murders of Chris
44:55
Speaker 1: Watts and the MENI faces off Chris Watts a five
44:58
Speaker 1: year update, what is he like when he talks to you?
45:05
Speaker 12: Well, I let him know from the very very get
45:08
Speaker 12: go that this was not a romantic relationship I wanted
45:13
Speaker 12: to have with him, that I wanted to write a
45:14
Speaker 12: book with him, and so we had more of a
45:19
Speaker 12: well a mothered son type relationship, a friend relationship.
45:27
Speaker 6: Is is.
45:30
Speaker 12: You know, as far as it can go. For that
45:33
Speaker 12: there was never anything romantic between us. But he did
45:38
Speaker 12: tell me about things, mainly things that happened with Nicole
45:44
Speaker 12: Kessinger that he did with her, and things I think
45:48
Speaker 12: that really got him on the hook with her.
45:53
Speaker 1: And you know, in my feelings, and may not ask,
45:59
Speaker 1: what are you taught talking about what happened with Nicole Kessinger, I.
46:04
Speaker 12: Don't know if I can say, if I'm allowed to
46:06
Speaker 12: say it on TV. Well, he told me some of
46:14
Speaker 12: the things that went on in that apartment between the
46:17
Speaker 12: two of them he would take to his grave, which
46:20
Speaker 12: is what he has said about a couple of different things.
46:22
Speaker 12: And in my talking with him, there were I believe.
46:29
Speaker 1: Okay, let me understand this, Carlyn. So he is embarrassed
46:35
Speaker 1: and appalled at his sex acts with Nicole Kessinger, but
46:39
Speaker 1: he freely discusses murdering Shenan Watts and the two children.
46:43
Speaker 1: For all of you women out there that think he
46:46
Speaker 1: is handsome, that he's a real hotty. I don't know
46:49
Speaker 1: why the control room keeps showing the picture of him
46:51
Speaker 1: without his shirt on. Doctor Ken, there you go, take
46:54
Speaker 1: that down. Doctor Kendall Crowns, could you just explain what
46:59
Speaker 1: is ski in slippage?
47:04
Speaker 6: Certainly what happens when you decompose the outer layer of
47:08
Speaker 6: your skin, or the epidermis, the bonds that hold it
47:11
Speaker 6: to the dermis, which is the underlayer of your skin,
47:14
Speaker 6: start breaking down, and your skin starts slopping off. This
47:18
Speaker 6: happens after several days of decomposition, especially if you're in
47:22
Speaker 6: a warm environment, and then all your skin begins slopping off,
47:25
Speaker 6: showing the dermis, and in fact your hands and feet
47:29
Speaker 6: will slip off in a glove and stalking like distribution
47:33
Speaker 6: and still kind of stay intact. That's just a normal
47:36
Speaker 6: process and decomposition, Doctor Kennel Crown's.
47:39
Speaker 1: As much as I would love to discuss the skin
47:42
Speaker 1: slippage of these two little girls and their mother, I
47:45
Speaker 1: need to dash out of the studio right now and
47:47
Speaker 1: take a shower, a hot shower. Actually, no, I need
47:49
Speaker 1: to go boil myself after hearing this. We stop now
47:55
Speaker 1: to remember an American Hero Reserve Deputy Eddie Hamer Hardiman
48:00
Speaker 1: County Sheriff's Tennessee, just thirty six, killed in the line
48:04
Speaker 1: of duty after serving nine years. He leaves behind his
48:08
Speaker 1: grieving mother, American Hero Reserved Deputy Addie Hayfer, Nancy Grace,
48:15
Speaker 1: signing off goodbye friend.