Latest / Giving Pain Purpose with Lyndsay Soprano / Unsilencing the Survivors of the Troubled Teen Industry with Meg Applegate

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Unsilencing the Survivors of the Troubled Teen Industry with Meg Applegate · Giving Pain Purpose with Lyndsay Soprano

• Lyndsay Soprano (00:02.357) When I was 15 years old, I had already been sexually assaulted twice. When I was 19, I was gang raped by more people than I could keep count of. When I was married to my ex -husband, I lived with marital rape, as well as massive amounts of emotional and physical abuse, all of which my parents do not know about to this day. They don't listen to this show. show of mine for many reasons, unless I say, listen to this episode. But I feel like they just might know that horrible things have happened to me, but they didn't want to face them. And I still feel like, especially my mother, that they don't want to face. She doesn't want to face the truth of why some of my rebellions started. And as a teenager and up to this day, I continue to protect them from what happened to me. And, you know, if you've listened to this show for even, you know, an episode or two, you know that I constantly talk about how the body keeps the score. That's a book that we've already talked about, and it is true. We talk about how our traumas are stored within our bodies, right? We talk about how these traumas exercise our demons into chronic illness, chronic pain, syndrome after syndrome after whatever. And we go to our doctors and we're like, here are all the things that we're feeling. And they don't believe us, especially us women. But they don't understand that those traumas turn into health issues with us go forward. And here I am. 46 years old, closer to 50 than I would like to admit. And we have more health issues and more health issues. And before I started the show, I had no idea why that shit was happening to me. And as I've uncovered with every episode on this show, how trauma informs our pain, how trauma informs the decisions we make. Lyndsay Soprano (02:20.873) the people we bring into our lives, the people we marry, the people we divorce. And, you know, I was, as a teenager, I would absolutely compartmentalize myself into being a troubled teen. I was. I was rebellious. Still am. Was curious. Still am. Am sad. Still am. Depressed. Still am. Anxious. Still am. Scared. Working on it. all of those things I'm working on. But today I am hopeful. And as you guys know, this show is about hope. Hopeful that we can help change what happens to us when we are young and have no control over that. Because now we are in charge, not them. So today I would like to talk about the troubled teen industry, TTI, because we might say TTI throughout the episode, just so you know. and becoming unsilenced once and for all. And I have the most amazing guest today. my goodness. Without further ado, I would like to introduce to you today my guest, Meg Applegate. Hello, my sweet darling. Meg Appelgate (03:38.05) Hello. Hello, thank you for having me. I'm super excited to be here. Lyndsay Soprano (03:43.545) my goodness, great. Super excited. I mean, we've got to be excited to talk about trauma, don't we? Meg is the co -founder and CEO of Unsilenced, a nonprofit aimed at supporting, excuse me. Meg is the co -founder and CEO of Unsilenced. Meg Appelgate (03:45.901) Yeah. Right, always, always. It's never a downer. Lyndsay Soprano (04:07.477) a nonprofit aimed at stopping institutional child abuse within the troubled teen industry that TTI mentioned earlier. She's a survivor of two TTI programs where she spent three and a half years of her teen years locked in institutional quote unquote programs, right? She ended up getting a degree in psychology. She spent over 17 plus years in various nonprofit boards, focusing on board development, recruitment and fundraising. Meg Appelgate (04:26.946) Yep. Lyndsay Soprano (04:36.319) But it wasn't until later in her career that she recognized the abuse that she endured and its impact on her adulthood. My Lord, right? And she is now dedicated herself to empowering other survivors of institutional abuse amongst many other things. And so here we are today. Meg Appelgate (04:58.498) Here we are. Lyndsay Soprano (04:59.483) Here we are. So all right. I am rolling out the red carpet for you, babe. And I would like to just jump in like nobody's business about the day that you were abducted from your bedroom by a stranger thrown into an SUV and sent into your first institution. And let's take it from there. Yep. I mean, it's always a good little, little quick, beautiful place to start. Meg Appelgate (05:04.277) Aww. Meg Appelgate (05:20.022) Right, we gotta start off with the kidnapping. It's always the part that everyone wants to know about. It's a good hook, isn't it? It's a good hook. When I was 15, I was kidnapped in the middle of the night by two strangers, you know? that's the truth. Yeah, mean, it was about 2 a and these two strangers came into my room. They woke me up and said, you're coming with me. And I remember thinking, hell, I'm coming with you. I'm like, I don't know who you are. And I thought I was gonna be arrested. Like, that was my first thought is I'm going to jail. Because I had smoked pot the night before and I thought, God, I'm gonna... Lyndsay Soprano (05:29.412) Yeah, it's a good hug. Meg Appelgate (05:56.236) you know, end up in California jail. Exactly. But immediately I could see my parents at the door watching and knew that this is obviously something that they signed on to. And the two people basically said we can do this the easy way or the hard way and alluded to the hard way being handcuffs. And yeah, exactly. So I just went along with what they were saying. But I was super upset. Lyndsay Soprano (05:56.789) my God, you're 15, I'm going to jail for smoking pot. Lyndsay Soprano (06:17.065) handcuffs. Meg Appelgate (06:23.514) And I remember asking them to go to the bathroom. They said they had to watch me get dressed. They said that they had to watch me do that too. And I remember the last question I asked was, can I at least pack a bag? And they responded with, your parents already did. And that's when I flipped out. And I remember screaming at the door, I fucking hate you so much. I'm never talking to you ever again. And I just remember being so angry. And that's really when the switch flipped and I just started disassociating. And I remember they just dragged me out of the house, put me into the back of an SUV, locked the doors and we were off to LAX airport. And I remember they had to face me away from the gate. I wasn't allowed to know where I was going. I couldn't look at my ticket. Like I didn't have a cell phone. So it's like, what would I have done? I have no idea. But it's just, yeah, I know. Lyndsay Soprano (07:16.693) Right, that's 100 years ago. Sorry, we're aging ourselves here. Yeah. Right. And we had pagers, right? Meg Appelgate (07:20.704) It's like the paper tickets that you had to get mailed to you, you know, there's no e -tickets back then. I couldn't look at it. Right, right, I know. And but I remember I got on the plane and I didn't know where I was going until the captain came on and mentioned Boise, Idaho. And as soon as we took off, they handed me two letters, one from my mom and my dad. And that's when I truly just disassociated. And I don't remember anything until I walked through the doors of my first program. Lyndsay Soprano (07:50.249) That is insane. And in reading your book, which we'll get into, I was such a rebellious teenager. I mean, I did all of the things. Yeah, I mean, yeah, we all are. But when you talk, when I opened up with what I opened up with, I've never said at all to anybody what I opened up the show with. So today was a hard episode for me to start. Yeah, hi. Meg Appelgate (07:59.874) I mean, we all are. Meg Appelgate (08:11.265) wow. Yeah, right. Lyndsay Soprano (08:17.609) Thank you, I told you before we started the episode that this was gonna be hard for both of us. But when you feel abducted versus being abducted, like I remember feeling like I was trapped in a place with my parents that they were trying to lock me down as hard as they could from rebellion because I was trying to protect them from what had happened to me. But in your situation, Meg Appelgate (08:43.864) Right. Lyndsay Soprano (08:46.131) You've got parents that think I've got this troubled team and they were coerced into you've got to bring your your kid into this institution. I want to talk instantly about the institutionalism and the political part of it and the money making side of it and all of that right out of the gates before we get into the rest of this, because that is in. Meg Appelgate (08:54.146) Mm -hmm. Lyndsay Soprano (09:14.133) incredibly interesting to me. yeah, all the dark and twisty, all these rich, wealthy people and the things that they do, it's like eyes wide shut. That's the first thing I thought about when I was reading your book was eyes wide shut. Meg Appelgate (09:16.374) Yeah, it's very important. Meg Appelgate (09:27.288) Mm -hmm. Meg Appelgate (09:31.462) Exactly. I mean, we're talking about a $23 billion of public funds industry. 23 billion, and that's conservative, and that's conservative. That's really, we can't count the private funds. We have no way of knowing how much parents are funneling into these facilities, but we know that they cost anywhere from five to $30 ,000 a month. So there's no telling really how much has really gone into this industry. Lyndsay Soprano (09:38.581) 23 billion? Meg Appelgate (09:59.224) but we're talking about public funds. Lyndsay Soprano (09:59.497) And we know that they're willing to put money into like buy their kids into USC. And yeah, yeah, so that's just to get them into a college, much less this stuff. Dear Lord. Meg Appelgate (10:04.726) Right. Yeah. Meg Appelgate (10:09.964) Right, right. And we're talking about like taxpayer dollars here. We're talking about school funds and special education IEP plans of sending kids out of these school districts into these programs to be abused. And we're also talking about programs that are backed by private equity. We're talking about programs that are nonprofits. They're all over the board, but one thing stays the same and regardless of where the money's coming from and that it's not evidence -based. and kids are leaving calling themselves survivors, which should never happen within any healthcare industry. It's absurd. Lyndsay Soprano (10:43.273) Right. Lyndsay Soprano (10:49.641) Yeah, and in your book, you talked about that, about how people left and they felt like even you to a certain extent were like, I made it through, I made it through the wilderness, little Madonna for us, everybody, in case you didn't know. But yeah, like these stories of these people are like, I made it through, I made it through, I made it through, but then they didn't make it through. And so many of these people, as you mentioned in your book about how a lot of them started to die. Meg Appelgate (11:19.074) Yeah. And I think that that's, that's the really hard thing is when you're so young, you look at a hurdle as like, I just got to get through this, right? I just, I got to get through it. And that's even if you know, it's a hurdle at the time I was brainwashed. So I didn't know it was a hurdle at the time. But even if you know that it's something that is hard for you, you just look at it as, long as I can get over this, but people don't realize that when survivors are going through what they're going through in these programs, that's just the beginning. Getting through that hard part was just the beginning because all of the things that are Lyndsay Soprano (11:26.26) Mm Meg Appelgate (11:48.992) infinitely more likely to happen because of that abuse later in life is is so crazy. We're talking about substance use. We're talking about future domestic violence situations and more likely to be in them. We're talking about hindered education. We're talking about physical health issues and autoimmune disorders and obesity and higher rates of suicide. So we're talking about overall health and mental health. that these survivors are leaving these programs thinking, thank God I'm out. And really it's just begun because it set them up for just failure in life. And it's really sad because many times these survivors don't know where to go to for help. Because many times they were abused by their therapists. so... That's the one thing you do, right? You need help, you go to a therapist. Well, if you were abused by one, it's really hard to make that decision. So a lot of us are just left to our own devices to figure things out. We don't have any help reintegrating back into society. Many of us are doing that at 18 with zero idea how to do normal things in life because the programs didn't teach us. So it's like, it's really important for us to realize not only do we need to stop sending these kids to these programs, obviously, We need to focus on the survivors that are unfortunately already survivors and how we can support them because they've been really just all left. Lyndsay Soprano (13:14.919) Yeah. And there's like what? Like a hundred and like a hundred twenty two hundred thousand three and a year. Yeah, that is insane. And that's in is that in the United States or is that globally? Meg Appelgate (13:19.566) 120 ,000 to 200 ,000 a year, conservatively. Meg Appelgate (13:29.078) So that would be just the United States for now. There was very many programs throughout, even outside of the United States, but many of them have been closed. Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (13:30.855) Okay, gross. Lyndsay Soprano (13:38.749) Yeah. So, and I know that you're an advocate for all of this and we're going to get into that a little bit later, but I'd like to talk about your actual experience now. And I know that it might drum up a couple of things and it will drum up stuff with me, even though I wasn't there because I'm an empath like nobody's business. But I'd like to talk to you a little bit about a day in of what you were experiencing, like when you got there and then what your life was and what you witnessed. Meg Appelgate (13:54.744) You Lyndsay Soprano (14:08.181) because the things that you were witnessing, the things that you were all kind of trying to protect each other to a certain extent, but also fearful to try to protect yourself and others as well. Meg Appelgate (14:20.632) So it depends on the program because you know The first program I went to was a lockdown facility just extremely rigid. Every single second of your day is scheduled and it leaves little room for any kind of wiggling, right? So highly, highly controlling environment. so with A day in the life of that is just basically, you just you get up and you do the same thing. You have the same expectations. You have to make sure your room is tidy in the exact same way. Lyndsay Soprano (14:22.697) Yeah. Meg Appelgate (14:50.038) You have so many rules that you can't fit them into your brain and you were never told them, so you have to memorize them as you go. But you aren't giving leniency, so if you forget one, you can like lose a level in a day. And if you don't learn it quick enough, you'll just continue to have that happen week after week and in lose privileges and gain privileges, lose them really easily, gain them. It's, it's really hard to do, so it's just, it's a constant up and down roller coaster of emotions without any support. So with me, they really heavily focused on removing all control. They thought I had control issues and they wanted to make sure that I know I have no control over my life and they wanted to make sure that I was beaten down enough, so to speak, that I gave in to other people. Basically, I was too strong -willed and so they were trying to break me is really what they were doing. So for many months, I spent my day at a desk. where I would like from the normal hours of like nine to five, I'd be at a desk writing assignments. And if I wanted to be allowed to go with my peers or go to the cafeteria or go to therapy or yada, yada, yada, I'd have to pick out of a bag a yes or a no. And there was 10 pieces of paper with one yes and nine nos. So almost always I didn't get to go with my peers. And so that bag was there. It's called random draw. And that was their idea of trying to take away all decision making so that I learn how to not try to take control of my life. Which I don't know why that's a bad thing, but they really wanted to break that in me. Meg Appelgate (16:35.916) Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (16:35.999) For once in my life, I'm speechless. Meg Appelgate (16:38.606) So was I in the program. I that's what it taught me is to never to just not speak up enough. Don't put my opinion out there. Don't use your voice because you just get in trouble. Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (16:40.957) Everybody, my life's like she's never speechless. Yeah, like that's it. Lyndsay Soprano (16:47.583) to not use your voice. to, yeah. Yeah, because in your book, you talked about that. It's almost like it was like a demerit plus like, it's almost like every day that you were there, you were like earning money to go into a bank. Almost like felt like it was a prison, right? my bad, it was a fucking prison. Meg Appelgate (16:57.186) Mm -hmm. Meg Appelgate (17:02.53) Yeah, Mm Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it was. Yeah, exactly. And it made it worse too because we were super medicated. So they diagnosed me within the first week with bipolar and I was heavily medicated for that. I don't have bipolar. So it wreaked havoc on my body. I ended up gaining 60 pounds in that six months. And really, they'd give me... Lyndsay Soprano (17:24.885) Sure. Meg Appelgate (17:32.334) copious amounts of anti -psychotics and I would get tired and like fall asleep while I was writing in my journal and I couldn't help it but they would punish me for it but I had no choice but to take my meds. So it's like an endless loop of getting in trouble but there's nothing I can do about it because they're making me get in trouble. So it was just this feeling of helplessness but it really wasn't until my second program when the real coercion and control came in that I really Finally reached that point of just learned helplessness where I just gave up on being who I am and gave in to just letting people tell me who I am so I can just have it easier in life because I just fully gave up. Lyndsay Soprano (18:17.065) Yeah, I don't know how you couldn't have. It reminds me, when I was reading your book, it reminded me of the movie, Girl Interrupted. yeah, yeah. And I have gone through, I went through a really weird stage in my world with abuse and all of the stuff that my parents weren't sure what was wrong with me. And what was wrong with me was the trauma that happened that I didn't share with them. Meg Appelgate (18:24.918) Yeah, for sure. Many survivors say that. Yeah. Meg Appelgate (18:40.152) Yeah. Meg Appelgate (18:44.29) Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (18:46.931) And so to their merit, like you talk about your parents in your book and you give them all kinds of accolades and love and all of that, your adopted parents. And I think that that's really wonderful for you to do that. But at that time when you're in your life where you're like, what the hell did I do wrong to get this kind of treatment? I'm like, dude, I was just smoking pot. Like, you know, yeah. Meg Appelgate (19:10.284) Yeah. Right. Lyndsay Soprano (19:13.189) So you ended up you went to the first one that was for what was that six? That was for six months, right? The first guy. And then you went for three fucking years to chrysalis. Yes. So let's let's get a little bit of a groove on chrysalis because I I hate them. So let's talk about what happened there. Meg Appelgate (19:18.476) Yeah, first one was for six months. Right. Yeah. Three more years. It's true. Yep. Meg Appelgate (19:32.396) Yeah. Yep. Same, same, same. Lyndsay Soprano (19:41.395) and the indoctrination of what started to happen there, which is a little bit into the cult and coercion side of it. Yeah. Meg Appelgate (19:47.734) It is, for sure. And it was very different. In the first program, everyone treats you the same, which is kind of mandated by it. And it's not great, right? But there's little variation. There's no variations, really. More of a hospital feel. But Chrysalis, it gives this illusion of like, we're a big family. In fact, we called each other family. It was all girls. Lyndsay Soprano (20:15.003) You said sister. Meg Appelgate (20:16.622) these are our chrysalis sisters and this is our chrysalis family. had very crazy, I mean, looking back, it's like, why did I not see that that's Colty? I have no idea, but it was 15, right? So yeah, it was 15, right? But it gives this illusion of safety, which is family, right? And this familial unit that takes care of each other and we hold each other accountable and we're just one big happy family. Lyndsay Soprano (20:18.101) sisters, right? Lyndsay Soprano (20:22.207) Creepy. Lyndsay Soprano (20:28.437) Right, you're 15, how the hell do you know what this is? Yeah. Meg Appelgate (20:45.706) you're not like it's, you know, yes, I made great friends while I was there and I met some amazing people like the other girls that I've kept in contact with till today. But the way that the program was run was not okay. And there were many staff that probably saved my life from just being really, really good humans and showing love and care and compassion and forcing them to take us to the doctor when we really needed the doctor and those people are like, thank God they were there. But the people that the two people Marion Kenny that owned Chrysalis at the time really damaged me, really damaged me. you know, anecdotally from other people as well is what I've heard. and their tactics just, it was very antiquated and non -evidence based and utilize things like attack therapy and which they called circle, which was their form of group therapy, but it's based on principles that are rooted in a cult called Synanon. They had something called the game, which is where they sit in a circle and just publicly braid and tear down other members until they acquiesce to the program, which is exactly what they did to us. And I would go through, I don't know, like eight to 16 hours of that every week. So it's... it acted as a way to tear down your confidence, tear down your certainty, keep you on your toes, make sure you don't ever feel comfortable enough to let your guard down. And once you were torn down, that's when they'd swoop in and help you rebuild. Like, okay, now we're gonna work the program. And then they'd come in with their... with their version of who you're supposed to be and then they rebuild you in the way that they think you are. And enough of, you when you're that young, hearing so many things wrong with you constantly, you just reach this point of like, you know, you mentioned like, what did I do to get to this point? No, it's you, you know, it's who you are. It's not what you did. It's that you're being told that it is because of you, because of who you are. Even your parents think that. Meg Appelgate (23:07.916) That's why you're here. It's so much deeper of a I'm internally flawed. And I was told that by them, that if I don't change who I am, I will never be loved. I will never be accepted. I will always be a pariah and never have friends. Like they told me these things. And so that became even if it wasn't conscious, like to myself every day, the way that I thought about myself, it was definitely deeply rooted and I didn't even know it. Lyndsay Soprano (23:08.245) Mm Lyndsay Soprano (23:38.357) How could you? We're babies. I mean, and we don't even form our brains, right? Until we're like, what, 24, 25 years old where our brains actually are starting to actually. Meg Appelgate (23:39.574) Right, I mean, it's so young. Right, exactly. Meg Appelgate (23:47.726) Mm -hmm. That's actually what he said to me in the circle. That is actually what he said. He said, Lizzie, because that's what I went by in the program, Lizzie, you have time still. You're only 15. I think I was almost 16 then. You're only 16 and your brain doesn't fully form until you're 25 and you still have time, because if you don't do it, you're never going to be accepted. You're prickly. You push people away. You're intrusive. You know, they say all these bad things, but that's what he quoted. Lyndsay Soprano (23:56.221) Yes, Lizzie. Lyndsay Soprano (24:17.641) Yeah, but guess what? All of those things that he said is why you're a gritty motherfucking badass. That's right. That's right. Yep. Yeah, yeah. And I identify with it. You know, I absolutely understand rebellion. I absolutely understand abuse and drug abuse and alcohol and all of the things. I did all of that stuff and. Meg Appelgate (24:23.016) Yeah, I know. I know I was just a strong human growing up into a strong woman and just, you know, I had to work through my stuff. Lyndsay Soprano (24:45.659) I didn't until I actually really truly started this show where I was having to, if I'm to be, if I'm asking my guests to be open and honest on this show with me, then I have to do the same, which is why I opened the way that I did today. And that was a hard thing for me to do. And it was something that I had to decide that I was going to do today. Maybe my parents might listen and now I've got a whole different fucking weekend ahead of me. Meg Appelgate (25:05.378) Yeah, for sure. It's hard. Meg Appelgate (25:11.254) Yeah, well, I am proud of you because there's going to be that part of you that just opened up that little box that's going to start to heal now. Lyndsay Soprano (25:19.209) Well, there's that and that also might open up within my parents. okay, all right. So all of that makes complete sense now. Meg Appelgate (25:24.64) Mm hmm. yeah. Like, that makes more sense. Because you bring up you bring up you brought up something that's really important. And that is you could have been easily a TTI survivor, right? You know, and the reason why is because if you look at the behaviors that are sending these kids away, even like smoking pot, right, something like that is oftentimes or you know, what's, you know, Lyndsay Soprano (25:45.897) Right. Give me a break. Meg Appelgate (25:51.47) classified as a problem behavior or a troubled teen behavior are most commonly covering up prior trauma. And so that's the issue is that these kids that seem troubled are actually really going through something that need to be addressed. But we're not addressing the trauma. In fact, we are sending them to places that are actually compounding the trauma. And these kids that already have established adverse childhood experiences and a high number of ACEs are being sent to facilities where they receive more ACEs. And so they can go on to have a worse life because of dealing with health issues and mental health issues that they do. And so we really need to get to the root of the actual, I say this very loosely, problem behaviors, right? Because usually they're not problem behaviors. They're just giving, they're highlighting the need for them to address some things. Yes, right. Lyndsay Soprano (26:47.495) We're asking for help in our own way. Yeah, without us knowing that we're doing that. like, my nephews have been hanging out with us for the past couple months in our house. We've just kind of been their guardians and their behavior is not like how I would raise them. And I feel like there are so many things that are going on with them that I know need to be addressed that I cannot address because I'm just their auntie. Meg Appelgate (26:53.004) Right. Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (27:14.313) And it's really tough because I know that they're going to be dealing with their boys. So it's a little bit different than the girl side. So I can like kind of dabble in the boy world. I'm like, boys are just sticky. You guys are just sticky. But trying to help them be really, really wonderful men is my goal whenever they're around me to treat women with respect and also to treat their selves with respect. Meg Appelgate (27:18.508) Yeah, it is different. Meg Appelgate (27:26.509) Mm Meg Appelgate (27:36.258) Right, well and. Lyndsay Soprano (27:42.197) because I think that we end up getting into the whole me too thing that it's all about women. Yes, of course, girls and women are definitely more affected by this, but there are boys that are going through the same shit. In fact, there was, there was a father and son that were on my show episode. I think it was like in the forties, like 44 or 45, Ryan and Rob Delaney and his father, his father and mother sent him to a TTI like you. Meg Appelgate (27:51.66) Yeah, for sure. Meg Appelgate (28:10.533) wow. Lyndsay Soprano (28:11.285) And he talked about his restraints and all the things that went on with him. The shoulder, the knee and the shoulder blade, like you mentioned in your book, like somebody leaning on you. Can you talk just a little bit? And I don't want to trigger you at all, but that's, mean, unfortunately, that's why you're on the show to trigger you. Welcome to the pain game podcast. We will trigger you. No, but yeah, we'll trigger the show to you. But can you just Meg Appelgate (28:27.073) no, I'm good. Yeah, trigger away. Meg Appelgate (28:36.495) We'll trigger the shit out of you. Lyndsay Soprano (28:40.063) briefly talk about like if you've got a moment or two that really stands out to you about the abuse that you went through because that to me, as sick and twisted as we are, we always look at the car accident, we look at the train wreck, but I want to elevate the abuse that goes on in these institutions today. Meg Appelgate (29:05.27) Yeah, I think that the one that comes to mind, so Chrysalis is where I experienced like a very heavy dose of psychological and emotional abuse. Very fair amount of medical neglect, in my opinion as well. But I think the story that really highlights not the actual abuse happening, but the effect of the abuse is in my mind going to be the most powerful. And that's when my dad came to visit me for Thanksgiving. and he rented a car and we were driving from Kalispell to Eureka Montana, which was, I don't know, like 60 miles, something like that. And I had my permit permit. so I couldn't drive without him in the car and he was letting me. And so I was driving and we got into this massive car wreck where the car literally flipped over, I don't know, like six times. We took out like small trees and we landed upside down. And, you know, my hand actually broke the the windshield and my head broke the side window and we landed upside down and we had to crawl out of the windows, right? And it was on Thanksgiving Day and we were on our way to Thanksgiving dinner with Kenny and Mary and all the girls. And my first thought was, I'm gonna get in trouble. I am going to get in a lot of trouble. And people stopped behind us and they were like, I'm gonna call you an ambulance. I had blood all over me. And I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no ambulance because I had been labeled as dramatic. at Chrysalis. And I said, no ambulance. had a huge scar on my hand here and it had broken the skin. There was glass in it and everything. And he's like, you need to get seen. And I was like, no, I don't want to. And I convinced my dad to take a taxi to Thanksgiving dinner to show up on time instead of go to the hospital. And the reason being is because, and I remember being in the cab on the way there thinking, Kenny's gonna be so proud of me. He's gonna be so proud that I didn't need a doctor and that I'm not being dramatic and I'm not talking about how it hurts and how I wanna cry and I'm not crying. And it perfectly highlighted the way that they wanted Chrysalis Girls to be. They wanted us to fall in line. They wanted us to not create extra work, which would be going to the hospital or going to the doctor. And they wanted us to not talk about. Meg Appelgate (31:31.02) the bad things or the way that we feel if it's going to be negative, you know what I mean? Like it perfectly highlights just how brainwashed I was into believing that. And I remember those circles I was talking about, that attack therapy. I remember a couple months later, because I never went to the hospital, attack therapy. I remember during these circles, I know, during these circles I would... Lyndsay Soprano (31:53.243) attack therapy. What the Meg Appelgate (31:59.243) you know, when I wasn't being attacked, I would look down at my hand and it started to hurt. And so I started to massage it in these circles. And three months after the accident, I started noticing glass coming out and I would pick glass out during circle. And I remember it was the circle that that like period of time was my favorite circles because I would sit and do something during circle and I'd pick glass out of my cut that never got washed out. And it was like my favorite circles because I just sat there with something to do. And it's so fucked up that I'm like, that it made it fun just because I didn't have to focus on all the shit going on around me. And yeah, but the medical neglect was bad. Anytime you were sick, you just don't talk about it. You don't ask to go to the doctor. You don't because Kenny gets mad. He says you don't go to the doctor unless it's a broken bone. Even when it's a broken bone, you barely get to go to the doctor. So yeah, that was... really just perfectly highlighted it for me. Lyndsay Soprano (33:05.533) OK, everybody just take a beat on that. Please pull over on the side of the road if you haven't already while listening to this. So it was all girls there. Meg Appelgate (33:07.951) Yeah, exactly. Meg Appelgate (33:15.225) Yeah. Meg Appelgate (33:18.978) Yeah, it was all girls. Lyndsay Soprano (33:22.173) Interesting. Meg Appelgate (33:23.245) Mm Lyndsay Soprano (33:25.371) And what, I'm curious about, fuck Kenny, let's just start there. So what the hell was going on with Mary? Meg Appelgate (33:30.058) Yeah, I know. Meg Appelgate (33:34.584) So Mary is an interesting character because she was my actual therapist, like on paper, even though Kenny, Kenny, they were married and we all lived together in a log cabin in the middle of the woods. And just put it into perspective, just so people understand that are listening. Like we lived in a log cabin in the middle of nowhere. I shared a bathroom with my therapists for the first six months I was there. My bedroom was right next door. Like think about how unethical, like, Lyndsay Soprano (33:42.655) Here we go. Meg Appelgate (34:02.986) Just so many no's, right? Just like, oh my God, so many no's And just to put in perspective, like we are all this big family. Kenny would wrestle us, like, which is so weird. He would have wrestling matches. You know, just very inappropriate relational dynamics between who we were supposed to look at as our therapists and ourselves. So, but Mary kind of, you know, she had this soft side every now and then where she would like, Lyndsay Soprano (34:04.383) So many no's, so many no's. Meg Appelgate (34:32.084) when you had gotten to a certain point, she'd like come up with a cute nickname for you and that meant that she liked you and she had that softer side. Kenny was a big presence. So like, you know, when you see them together, like Kenny almost always took the seat, if that makes sense. But I had like good experiences with Mary and I also had, I didn't, the bad experiences that I had, I don't think I realized at the time were bad experiences. was, Yeah, so looking back, I'm like, man, why didn't, you know, the problem I have with her is that I have like eight journals full of me complaining about the mistreatment from Kenny, her husband, and it was never addressed, like ever. Like I remember writing in my journal saying, I'm really sad and I feel bad about myself right now because at breakfast I accidentally got syrup on the placemat and Kenny called me a pig. And Lyndsay Soprano (35:00.031) Sure, sure. Meg Appelgate (35:27.918) Never once was it addressed. And I would say things like, just want to be loved. And here my therapist is reading this and she's in control of that relationship dynamic and it should have been addressed. And it's very sad. But Kenny, Kenny was very, he had favorites. He picked his favorites and if you weren't Kenny's favorite, you wanted to be because you got the good like, you got the good things in life, right? He'd be more likely to give you the front seat instead of sitting in the back of the van. Like You would get good things, and but He paired him being like you being in his good graces for that moment with pain. So like he would come up behind you, and grab the back of your neck and squeeze. And I remember that feeling of, oh my God, this hurts, but I'm so happy because it means I'm Kenny's I'm like I'm Kenny's favorite right now. And that pairing of pain and love was super damaging. In fact, I think it played like such a huge part in me and entering like relationships that ended up being very toxic and abusive. And, Or he would like take his hand when you were in the front of the suburban for the day, let's say, and he would take his hand and you know that really ticklish part of your knee, where you squeeze it? and it's like, He would do that really hard. And so it would hurt, but you'd be like, oh my God, he's touching me. Yay. Like, Lyndsay Soprano (36:48.756) Mm Meg Appelgate (36:56.458) he likes me now. And It was just so bad because the next day he wouldn't the next day or maybe that night he would confront you in circle and tell you everything he really felt. And that feeling would just melt. And then you'd want that feeling back so bad, you know, like because it made you feel loved and cared for. And the whole thing was just so sick, in my opinion. Lyndsay Soprano (37:18.469) In your opinion, in every single person's opinion that's listening right now, my love. My God. Well, I mean, it reminds me I'm completely infatuated with polygamy for some reason. The the I used to live in Park City, Utah, which is the, you know, the the rebels, the rebels of Utah. That's of course where I would end up. But. Meg Appelgate (37:19.915) Yeah. Meg Appelgate (37:31.276) Yeah. Yeah. Meg Appelgate (37:37.333) wow. Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (37:43.311) man man did I learn a lot about polygamy and I got very interested in it and about the mind control and I always watch documentaries about it and about how these women and these girls they're like it's fine for us to have all of these other wives and all this the brainwashing that goes into it and especially to us women but it also is an indoctrination to the men as well because they're trained to that this is the way it's supposed to be but Meg Appelgate (38:06.531) Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (38:11.763) we as us women are trained that this is the way it's supposed to be. And I've never been part of any kind of coercion like that at all outside of like, do some of this stupid drug, right? have so many things that I want this episode to go for like five hours, which we can't do, but man, man. So as you're going through all of this stuff, Meg Appelgate (38:16.278) Right, right. Meg Appelgate (38:31.606) Hahaha Lyndsay Soprano (38:42.321) When, now we're getting closer to like, now you gotta get the hell out of here. Like what happens now? Now I've like, you've been in there for how long until you decided, I gotta get the fuck out of here? How long did that, that's right. Yep. Meg Appelgate (38:57.134) I didn't. didn't. Unfortunately, I was 18 and a half when I left because I had already, I went in at 15 and I had effectively became a people pleaser and my parents didn't think I should come home for senior year. And so I just acquiesced and finished off my senior year there, graduated 18 and a half and believe it or not, looked at it as the best thing that happened to me and saved my life. Lyndsay Soprano (39:05.397) and you went in at 15. Meg Appelgate (39:25.216) until I was like in my mid thirties and it didn't really start to hit me until then. And I also didn't realize, you know, I was having so many issues. I kept having organs removed because they were failing. I know like my dad jokes, like I'm bionic at this point. And it's just like, you know, Lyndsay Soprano (39:42.466) Yeah, your book, you were like, I've got all of these organs being pulled out. I'm like, what the hell? That's funny, because I'm called the bionic woman in my family. Meg Appelgate (39:53.512) really? Yeah, that's what they say about me. And it's just like, and they also say that I'm the doctor of the family because I've had so many medical issues my entire life that I like every doctor I walk into, they're like, are you, are you a doctor? I'm like, no, I've just had to advocate for myself for way too long, you know, honorary doctor right here. but exactly. No, we have to, we have to. Yes, exactly. Lyndsay Soprano (40:07.113) That's right. That's right. We all have them, by the way. In our positions, I've got so many honorary deeds on this, like nuts. Meg Appelgate (40:19.852) Otherwise, how are we gonna get help? No one listens to us. So it's, yeah, we're the zebras, you know? Like, we're not horses, we're zebras. So I think that, know, it took a really long time for me to realize that, you know, the reason why I developed agoraphobia was potentially because of the shit that I had going on in my childhood. Yeah, yeah, and to be honest, you know, I think... Lyndsay Soprano (40:22.205) Nobody listens. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Lyndsay Soprano (40:38.791) Maybe I don't wanna be around a group of people. Yeah. Meg Appelgate (40:44.394) a big part of it. Also, like another waking up period, even after I realized it was abuse that I went through was when I got diagnosed with autism. I went through a whole new wake up period of, holy shit, I was abused because I'm autistic. All of the things thinking back to the circles, everything they wanted to change about me, they were my autistic traits. They were just a part of who I was. And what it taught me to do was always mask. Never trust people are going to like who you are. You're not good enough the way that you are. And I got really good at pretending I am neuro, you know, not neurodivergent and I'm neuro typical. And so I, I, the reason why my body started failing in my opinion is I was spending so much of my career going to board meetings and like doing all these things, appearing as a neuro typical. And it was, it was killing myself. I was completely ignoring who I was. And you know, the body keeps the score as you're saying. it took, I call it the trauma spiral of 2018 when I hit a point that is probably, you know, I talk about it as being even scarier than the TTI. Those two weeks of constant panic attacks from the CPTSD being triggered and realizing, my God, something's going on. And that was really the bottom for me. And then the next bottom happened when I watched Paris Hilton's documentary and realized, shit, the goons that took her said the exact same thing when they kidnapped me. Like, how is that possible? They were different people. Well, it's an industry and there's like a whole community of survivors that have been through this. these different waking up periods is really what led me to where I am now. And it's funny as soon as you get, it's not funny, but you know, trauma is funny, right? Lyndsay Soprano (42:12.575) Sure. Lyndsay Soprano (42:35.497) Begin it. Meg Appelgate (42:36.59) But when you get to the point of realizing, my God, my body is fine now. I'm stopping having so many issues. I'm not continuously getting diagnosed with things. The things I'm diagnosed with hurt less when I start working on the mental pain. And it's so wild when you realize, my God, it's all connected. You have to treat the mental pain. You have to treat the trauma before the gut problems get better, you know what mean? It's all intertwined and I'm finally just healthier all around because I've been awakened to what I really went through when I was 15. Lyndsay Soprano (43:20.159) Well, that and also you've given your you've become unsilenced. And when you start to open your mouth and you start to address the stuff that happened to you, whatever your version of it is, by the way, and that's something that I think is really important, I know that we all have been through our own shit in life and. Whatever you experience, the way you experience something is free is your truth. Meg Appelgate (43:24.012) Right, exactly. Lyndsay Soprano (43:49.593) And I know that a lot of women, especially, well, I'm just going to speak for myself. I know that if when we talk about rape, for example, and sexual abuse, women are always looked at and young girls are always looked at like we brought it on ourselves. Me too. Yeah, yeah. And that's while you were dressing provocatively or whatever that whatever the fuck it is. like, I went to Contempo casuals. Meg Appelgate (44:05.102) for sure. I experienced that when I was 15 as well. mean, the same thing. Yep. Yep, yep, exactly, exactly. Lyndsay Soprano (44:17.845) That was what I was wearing at the time, okay? Don't blame me for fashion, like trends. Yeah, exactly, I got 2000 scrunchies that match my socks. Meg Appelgate (44:19.852) Exactly, Right, right. I got it from Wet Seal, okay? Lyndsay Soprano (44:37.289) I legitimately worked at Contempo Casual and Wet Seal. I'm not even kidding. Would you like a scrunchie to match your socks? That was literally the line when people walked into Wet Seal. Maybe that's my trauma. Maybe it has nothing to do with anything else. Maybe it's Wet Seal. Wet Seal, I've got some news for you. God, I know, right? Meg Appelgate (44:47.949) my God. Yeah, maybe, Wet seal and scrunchies is really what you need to address in therapy. Meg Appelgate (45:00.843) It needs to come back, actually. Let's see, it needs to come back. Lyndsay Soprano (45:04.671) want Contempo Casual because it was a little bit more on the like, you know, limited to, I don't know. right. Meg Appelgate (45:07.662) I heard Limited 2 is coming back, which I'm... Yeah, Limited 2 is coming back too. Lyndsay Soprano (45:16.873) Anyways, I just find that we're faced with so many things in our lives and so many challenges and we can approach them in different ways. But when you're a young, young, young ladies or young men, we do not know what we're being faced with. We have no idea how that is going to affect us later in our lives. But now that we're here later in our lives, we can take our control back. And that's something that I've had to learn because I let go, even though I'm a control freak, I control things that I know I can control because all of the other crazy shit that's happened to me in my life and my brain and my noodle and my emotions and my sadness and depression and anxiety and panic and eating disorders and alcohol and drugs and all those things. Those are hard to deal with, but man, man, I have confronted them. all now, without restraint. Without restraint. And that is something that I'm very, very proud of. And I know for you, you have a family of four children. You got two boys and two girls, baby. And so can we jump into that really quick about how motherhood is for you within this? Well, actually just you and your husband, like how you guys have raised kids together. Meg Appelgate (46:17.676) Right, Yep. Meg Appelgate (46:27.842) Yep, sure do. Yep, exactly. Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (46:42.965) under this, because I know that you talked about, you know, it's difficult for you with kids like they act in a certain way and you're like, Whoa, I don't want to do that. But I need to do that. Can you talk a little bit about how how hard that's been for you because you've been very successful at it. Meg Appelgate (46:53.324) Yeah, I mean, I think, well, thank you. think it's really, it's twofold, right? We have inborn in us the way that we were parented. So we're battling that. And then for myself, I have the way that I was treated, right, in my programs. And so I'm battling that. So whenever there's something that happens that triggers something that, I need to parent this, right? I need to address this. I have to Lyndsay Soprano (47:05.983) course. Meg Appelgate (47:22.306) go through those two filters of, know, there are things that my mom and dad did absolutely correctly. And then there's things that I just choose to do differently, not based on it being wrong or bad, but really just, it works for me and maybe research supports it now, you know? And I think that it's hard to choose to behave differently than your instincts. And I think that the best thing I ever did was just go out and learn. Lyndsay Soprano (47:31.679) Sure. Meg Appelgate (47:51.19) and have someone teach you. The best thing I ever did was hiring a parent coach and having them coach me through some really difficult parts of parenting. And it's all behind the kids back, right? They're not labeled. They're not stigmatized. They have no idea that we have a parent coach and they're teaching us how to be better parents to each individual kid, which I think is really powerful. one thing that, yeah, well, and I think one of the biggest things that I can... Lyndsay Soprano (47:55.562) Mmm. Lyndsay Soprano (48:13.417) Yeah, you talk about that in your book. It is, yeah. Meg Appelgate (48:19.81) do for my kids. And I think that it's really hard for older generations to do, but it just makes the biggest difference in the world. And I've seen it in my kids is we fuck up. We're gonna fuck up because we're not just parents, but we're humans. We're gonna fuck up. When you do apologize. And just because a kid is a kid does not mean that they're not human and they need apologies. And it's okay. Lyndsay Soprano (48:36.799) Humans. Yeah. Meg Appelgate (48:45.814) It's not admitting defeat, right? You're still mom, you're still dad, but like definitely apologize. Say, you know what? I didn't, I didn't handle that correctly. And I'm sure it really felt horrible to have me scream at you like that, you know? And I think that it's really important because it's going to show them what they do when they grow up, when they make a mistake, they feel comfortable and safe enough to, to be able to admit it. And if it wasn't modeled for them, then that's that. And I think too commonly, Lyndsay Soprano (49:13.257) Yeah, yeah. Meg Appelgate (49:14.574) Parents are looking at their kids' behaviors as an extension of themselves. So like, these are my children and they are skipping out on school. That's unacceptable to that parent. So they're gonna try to change that. And they're gonna try to coerce them into, and force them into being able to go and not understanding that kids need decisions. Kids need to mess up, right? What they really, really ultimately need is someone to fall back into when they realize they messed up and have a shoulder to cry on. and have a support system. Exactly. Right, Yep. Yep. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. think. Lyndsay Soprano (49:43.633) And also structure and discipline. Yeah, like you might not like me. Don't care. But this is what's happening. You might not like it that I'm grounding you. You might not like it that you're not allowed to eat like eight thousand chicken wings at Popeyes. Like these are things that you're not supposed to do. Love it or leave it. But the love is the part of where that comes from. And with all of that, Meg Appelgate (50:04.398) You Meg Appelgate (50:09.998) Mm Lyndsay Soprano (50:13.513) With everything that you've gone through, you've worked in the nonprofit sector for many, many, many, many years. And within that, you started, you know, unsilenced. And I'd like to. Unsilence you about this, about justice, about how you've talked about waking up. Meg Appelgate (50:19.206) Mm Meg Appelgate (50:24.258) Mm -hmm. Meg Appelgate (50:28.966) You Lyndsay Soprano (50:35.541) That's not just about survivors, but it's about the education system. It's about lawmakers. It's about religious leaders. It's about the criminal justice system. It's about all of those things. Can you speak a little bit about what you're doing in regards to your organization and justice for the troubled teen industry? Meg Appelgate (50:53.356) Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. mean, unsilenced is, you know, a nonprofit that really focuses on empowering self -advocates to promote lasting social change. So we really focus on not only creating awareness and transparency into an industry that let's face it, doesn't exist. but, and, trying to like, stop the kids, interrupt that pipeline of kids from communities to these programs through awareness and education. But also serving, like I said, the survivors that are already there. And some of the ways that we serve them and empower them is, you know, creating resources for them. We send out independence packs, which are backpacks that have a laptop, a chock full of resources. It's got, you know, gift cards and essential tools and items for survivors who are aging out of programs and battling homelessness. So, you know, we ship those all over. country. We also offer free support groups to survivors. And we also are trying to connect survivors to be able to have access to justice. And that is one of the biggest initiatives that we have right now. And we've developed relationships with attorneys and law firms throughout the entire country. And we are actually launching very soon in the next couple days our attorney directory, which is going to help connect survivors to law firms all over the country. And these are law firms that, you know, at least in the beginning, we're going to be sure that we have relationships with, we know that they understand the TTI, which is really important. And, you know, being able to make sure that, you know, this isn't just standard personal injury, right? It's really about understanding how these facilities function, but really how they hide abuse. Because unless you know behind the scenes how these programs work, it's really hard to litigate against them. Lyndsay Soprano (52:32.134) Okay. Meg Appelgate (52:51.318) Right? So it's really important that we continue to educate and work with the legal community. And also, like you said, with all the other systems that are leading into this industry, foster care, juvenile justice, the amount of awareness and the amount of education that needs to be done is so big, which is why it's so important that everyone listening takes it as something that they need to do is just talk about it. Right. Talk to people about it, because chances are Lyndsay Soprano (53:17.843) Yeah. Yep. Meg Appelgate (53:20.408) There's someone you know who has been to a program. And you know, if you bring it up, maybe they needed to talk about it and they didn't think they could. And it's really important that we look at this as just a health crisis. It really is. This would not be happening if it was a hospital that had patients coming in and leaving, calling themselves survivors, right? It would be shut down. So we really need to take it upon ourselves to help solve this societal issue. Lyndsay Soprano (53:47.381) I don't have anything to add to that because that was beautifully stated. Meg Appelgate (53:52.309) Appreciate that. Lyndsay Soprano (53:56.117) I mean, it's just, this whole thing is insane. You know, a quote unquote troubled teen, which I 100 % know that I was, and that to a certain extent, I still kind of am. Starting to advocate for myself and starting to use my own voice for the things that have happened to me. Meg Appelgate (54:08.952) Mm Lyndsay Soprano (54:19.389) Some of them I know that I've gotten myself into icky situations, but nonetheless, it doesn't mean that I should have gone through the things that had happened to me and so on and so forth. you know, It's, we all suffer in our own ways. We have all been through a lot of stuff in our lives, guys, you know, some worse than others. So don't compare yourself to Meg today. Don't compare yourself to me today. Only compare yourself to yourself and do what you feel is right Meg Appelgate (54:26.092) Right. Meg Appelgate (54:40.631) Right, exactly. Lyndsay Soprano (54:48.287) for you and advocate for yourself, no matter how scary that might be. Opening your mouth, especially as a woman, and I'm sorry guys, we love you, but you know, we deal with more than you do. We just do, we just do. You spend one day having a period and then you call me, okay? Just one day. Meg Appelgate (55:06.544) Yeah, right. Lyndsay Soprano (55:13.933) Let me know how you feel about being a man versus a woman. But this, mean, this has just been incredibly educating and eye opening and your book is incredible. And I would like to read something that's at the end of your book really quick before you hit the dusty trail. So this is from her book. I am now dealing. Meg Appelgate (55:14.176) Meg Appelgate (55:18.319) Right. Meg Appelgate (55:28.378) thank you. Lyndsay Soprano (55:38.803) I am now daily living a life that I had accepted I would probably never have. There was such a long period of my life when if I had died at that point, people would have said things about me like, she had a really sad life. She was in a lot of pain. She suffered a lot. I think that was my worst fear back then, but that's no longer going to be the way people talk about me. Now I know that if I died, it would be doing something that I love. Having an impact on people, Lyndsay Soprano (56:13.127) and being part of a movement that has helped hundreds of kids and families. Now, whenever that time comes, I will die being proud of who I am. I am unsilenced. Meg Appelgate (56:26.776) Wow. I haven't heard that like read aloud when I wasn't writing it and it even affected me. Yeah, exactly. You broke the seal. Lyndsay Soprano (56:32.085) The one that doesn't cry. The one that doesn't cry just got to cry. Yes! I did it! Well, you're welcome. It's your words, honey. So is there anything you'd like to leave us before we go here? Meg Appelgate (56:49.964) I don't think so. Just thank you for having me. And I am so glad you enjoyed the book, honestly. I love hearing what people think, so it means a lot to me. Lyndsay Soprano (57:00.595) Yeah. And I found her because my sweetie and I just bought a house in the same community as her. And we have a Facebook group for our community, which is like a quilting circle. And she posted up her book cover, Becoming Unsilenced. And I immediately gravitated towards it and reached out to you because I wanted you on my show. And so now we're neighbors. So Meg Appelgate (57:28.706) Yeah. You were the only person that cared about that post. Lyndsay Soprano (57:29.64) I hope I did you. Lyndsay Soprano (57:34.537) Hey, you got to start somewhere, you know? But I was like, I got to do this good because she's in our community, honey. I can't fucking. Meg Appelgate (57:36.702) Exactly, exactly. Hahaha Yep, yep, same, right? Right. Lyndsay Soprano (57:47.655) Yeah, exactly. I didn't even think about it on your side. I just wanted to make sure I gave you what you needed here. Well, thank you so much for being here. This has been absolutely incredible. And we are behind you on advocacy. I will put everything up in show notes. You can find her everywhere at MegApplegate .com and also Unsilenced .org. Meg Appelgate (57:55.628) Yeah, it's been a blast. Same. Meg Appelgate (58:06.338) Yeah Lyndsay Soprano (58:12.605) She is on Facebook and Twitter and all the things, all the places we'll put there out there. But this book, Becoming Unsilenced, Surviving and Fighting the Troubled Teen Industry. that is what we have been talking about today. And we will continue to do so to support her and others that have been through it. So thank you so much for your time with us today. This has been just absolutely wonderful. Thank you so much. And I'm going to come over and give you a big hug. You. Meg Appelgate (58:32.632) Thank you for having me. It has been. Okay, sounds good. Okay, neighbor. Lyndsay Soprano (58:41.937) Yeah, okay, neighbor. You are exclusively invited to share this on silenced VIP pain journey together. Let's get to the heart of how to heal with you by my side. Please follow the pain game podcast wherever you digest your podcast content. We will be there. Visit us at the pain game podcast .com and follow us on all the socials. Thanks for listening. My little VIPs catch you on the other side.