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The Rick Smith Show 9-25-2026 · The Rick Smith Show

0:00
[SPEAKER_02]: It's time for the Rick Smith show!
0:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, here is the voice of a working class, Rick Smith.
0:13
[SPEAKER_02]: And welcome brothers, sisters working class heroes.
0:17
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the Rick Smith show.
0:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks so much for being here today on the big program.
0:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Lots to get to lots to talk about Xi Jinping is in town.
0:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah in country landed at joint base Andrews yesterday greeted by by Donald Trump and really
0:37
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of interesting news media around this presenting China as an equal in what is a break from protocol.
0:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, this is what Trump would do because he's just rolled out the red carpet for for for Xi Jinping and and look you go this is mastery of diplomacy maybe he thinks she is is is manipulable as he is you say nice things to him to his face and he'll give you whatever you want.
1:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if that's the thought process.
1:09
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a, I guess it's a Campbell, but also the fact that in the run up to this meeting, he has done nothing but go after China, accusing them of election interference, accusing them of trade manipulation, all kinds of stuff.
1:26
[SPEAKER_02]: and and frame them as the the enemy but face the face and this is where you know I go back to this is our paper tiger bully and this is our paper bully to his face buddies you know they're like old friends long lost buddies and as opposed to rivals of you know for global power and trade and artificial and I'm never saying super artificial intelligence and all of the stuff that's going on
1:55
[SPEAKER_02]: China, rig in the election for Biden, which is just, um, again, the weird thing here, though, is China did not bring their business delegation, which tells me nothing is going to happen.
2:10
[SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing going to get done.
2:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, this is just for for show, uh, this is this is going to play really well back in in China in their state media, seeing their their leader, uh, being this respected and put up on a pedestal, you know, who, you know, who Trump is not going to treat Xi Jinping like like Zelensky.
2:33
[SPEAKER_02]: You're never going to see him yelling at him like as a child and telling me he's got no cards.
2:38
[SPEAKER_02]: There will be no discussion of cards.
2:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Because sadly, we've given away most of our leverage to China.
2:46
[SPEAKER_02]: We still have some levers, and we better be using them soon.
2:49
[SPEAKER_02]: But more and more, we're kind of giving it away.
2:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, I'm going to be interesting to see what the news ban with the pool reporters, not showing up, how this is going to play out.
3:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm interested to see how the courts
3:11
[SPEAKER_02]: a signal that he might be skeptical of Trump's Trump's ban of CNN MS now and and political based on the fact that he was they were given no due process and this is a this is not a this is not a first amendment issue that this is about it's a fifth amendment i think fifth amendment uh... this is not a first amendment case because i'm going to should be
3:40
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to be interesting to see how the judge plays this out, but on the other front, the Des Moines Register, the Des Moines Register got their their lawsuit from Trump tossed out, which is good.
3:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I wish ABC and some of the other people who who bent the knee and wrote open the checkbook wish they would have done something to stand up to to to trump at the beginning because maybe we wouldn't be this far down the road but I am curious how this this big powaw what China is going to turn out and and what the what the headline bullet points are going to be you know greatest meeting ever greatest you greatest deal to bring us half of the business
4:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Who knows what Trump's gonna dream up?
4:27
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I'm gonna be watching for, cause I'll tell you this, without China's business leaders coming along, I don't really know that they're really serious about this meeting, other than the optics.
4:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Wanna hear your thoughts?
4:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Email me, Rick at TheRixMithShow.com.
4:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Gonna take a quick break when we come back.
4:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Train safety back in the news.
4:48
[SPEAKER_02]: We're gonna talk to a union leader about, some of the CSX is doing, back after this.
4:58
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Rick Smith, and this is Labor History in 2.
5:01
[SPEAKER_04]: On this day in Labor History, the year was 1789.
5:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Congress passed the Judiciary Act of 1789.
5:08
[SPEAKER_02]: This act established the plan for the US Supreme Court.
5:12
[SPEAKER_02]: At first, the court was comprised of just six justices, appointed by the President with Senate confirmation.
5:18
[SPEAKER_02]: The number of justices varied until 1869, when it became Senate nine.
5:23
[SPEAKER_02]: The Constitution granted the Supreme Court jurisdiction over all laws, but especially those were constitutionality was an issue.
5:32
[SPEAKER_02]: The highest court has played a key role in deciding some of the most challenging issues facing the United States.
5:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Up until the 1800s, rulings related to labor law were decided by state courts, but the Supreme Court became the deciding body for many labor questions.
5:48
[SPEAKER_02]: It was the Supreme Court that upheld the jailing of Eugene V. Debs for violating an injunction against organizing a boycott of the Pullman Palace car company in 1894.
5:58
[SPEAKER_02]: In junctions continued to be a tool against labor stoppages.
6:02
[SPEAKER_02]: In another famous case, the Lowell vs. Lowler kicks, often referred as the Dan Berry Hatter's case, Dietrich Low refused to recognize the Hatter's Union.
6:11
[SPEAKER_02]: He replaced striking workers with scouts.
6:14
[SPEAKER_02]: The strikers organized the nationwide boycott of Lowe's hats.
6:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Lowe sued and the case made it all the way to the United States Supreme Court.
6:22
[SPEAKER_02]: In 1809, the Supreme Court ruled against the strikers.
6:25
[SPEAKER_02]: The Supreme Court often showed an anti-worker bias.
6:29
[SPEAKER_02]: In the 1918 case, Hammer vs. Dagon Hart, the court ruled Congress could not enact laws regulating child labor.
6:36
[SPEAKER_02]: In another early 1900's case, Lockner V. New York, the Supreme Court ruled
6:42
[SPEAKER_02]: a New York law that mandated a limit of 10 hour work days for bakers.
6:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Today, many important labor cases come before the Supreme Court.
6:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think it's possible to return to the days of no minimum wage and child labor?
7:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to the Rick Smith Show.
7:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, here is Rick Smith.
7:08
[SPEAKER_02]: So on Tuesday near Boseman, Montana, mile marker 59 for you, those in the area, Montana, 1951.
7:16
[SPEAKER_02]: A tractor trailer loaded with hay flipped over, crashed, causing quite a mess.
7:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know, Rick, what's so special about a truck crashing?
7:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, as someone who's driven a truck for a very long time, it's the next part that interests me the most.
7:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Because according to a Montana highway patrolman,
7:36
[SPEAKER_02]: someone at the scene, the claim is the truck's automatic breaking system malfunctioned caused all the wheels to lock up and well, Jackknife in crash.
7:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And I gotta tell you, I'm not thrilled with all of this technology.
7:50
[SPEAKER_02]: If I'm gonna be the one dying behind the wheel, I wanna be the one making the mistake.
7:55
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm really uncomfortable as we're moving to automated vehicles.
7:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, pair that with the story of railroad giant CSX, them in their record profits are now cutting some 1100 jobs.
8:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And as I understand, the Trump administration is given them the go ahead to do more
8:14
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm guessing AI like inspections instead of actual inspections and again another bit of technology that not proven kind of makes me uncomfortable uneasy especially with East Palestine not too distant in the rear of your mirror
8:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why I've asked Tony Cardwell to come share some thoughts with us, Tony's the President of the Brotherhood of Maintenance of the Way Employees Division of the IBT.
8:38
[SPEAKER_02]: You could check out their website at BMWE.org, Tony.
8:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for the good time for us.
8:45
[SPEAKER_02]: That's great.
8:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
8:47
[SPEAKER_02]: So walk me through what's going on here.
8:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm seeing this story, CSX is hugely profitable.
8:54
[SPEAKER_02]: There seems to be no reason to cut 1100 employees other than they think they can and can align their pockets a little bit more.
9:02
[SPEAKER_02]: What's going on?
9:04
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, CSX railroad is gone from, let's just take fourth quarter of 2025.
9:09
[SPEAKER_04]: They went from $720 million a net profit
9:16
[SPEAKER_04]: to eight hundred and seven first quarter of twenty twenty six to now one billion uh... dollars of net profit this is net profit in twenty six second quarter so they're obviously doing very well there's no reason for the cuts uh... we have very strong of some of our strongest collective bargaining agreements are on the csx railroad and they made a decision and notified us that they're gonna eliminate uh... they're eliminated close to eleven hundred jobs
9:43
[SPEAKER_04]: And and create some type of seasonal type of jobs out of them.
9:48
[SPEAKER_04]: They haven't really explained it.
9:49
[SPEAKER_04]: So we don't know if those guys are going to come back once they're laid off.
9:52
[SPEAKER_04]: We don't really understand exactly what their intention is for them.
9:57
[SPEAKER_04]: But ultimately, they are lay enough going to attempt to lay off a level 100.
10:02
[SPEAKER_04]: employees.
10:02
[SPEAKER_04]: Of course, we're going to fight fight like crazy to make sure that doesn't happen.
10:06
[SPEAKER_04]: We think this is a major safety issue.
10:08
[SPEAKER_04]: So we're definitely going to get into into that fight with them and try to protect these jobs.
10:13
[SPEAKER_04]: We think now is not the time.
10:14
[SPEAKER_04]: There has been reductions pretty serious reductions since 2016.
10:20
[SPEAKER_04]: So much so in the industry that we thought we'd kind of flatlined or we've got the worry you can't cut any further.
10:27
[SPEAKER_04]: Staffing is at all time low levels
10:31
[SPEAKER_04]: kind of even out if you will and now all of a sudden they're announcing that they can cut another 1100 jobs out of there approximately 3400 jobs or 3500 jobs over there, which is a severe cut.
10:44
[SPEAKER_04]: So, yeah, we're definitely concerned.
10:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm, this is an industry that for, as far as I can remember, like 12, 13 years, they were trying to have one guy on a train because that one extra salary, instead of having two, they wanted to go down to one, because that extra salary, that was really going to make her break the company's bottom line.
11:03
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we're exactly in at the same time there are standing trains out to, you know, from what used to be much smaller trains to nearly, you know, four or five miles long, which is insane.
11:13
[SPEAKER_04]: They've tripled quadrupled the size of trains and wanted to put one person in the cab, which was crazy.
11:18
[SPEAKER_04]: We had that fight from our sister, Union, the BLET and I think they've gotten enough legislation put in place as jobs are now protected.
11:27
[SPEAKER_04]: We hope you never know when they're gonna come back and start playing games again.
11:31
[SPEAKER_04]: I think there's enough agreements out there that those folks, those folks representing that union have done a pretty good job there.
11:38
[SPEAKER_02]: So now you're talking seasonal employment.
11:40
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, like casuals like hey, Christmas is coming, you know, we're going to grab some people off the street like you see it at the local, the local grocery store or the Walmart.
11:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, is this what we're talking about?
11:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Because understand, look, I drive a truck for a living.
11:52
[SPEAKER_02]: I know that not every time Dick and Harry can go walk around and truck and find things wrong.
11:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I kind of want.
11:59
[SPEAKER_02]: someone who knows what they're looking for, looking at the trains and making sure that I don't know making sure they're okay to be going through communities.
12:07
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
12:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Am I missing something?
12:10
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, these are extremely high-skilled jobs.
12:12
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyone that understands railroading knows.
12:14
[SPEAKER_04]: This is extremely heavy equipment.
12:17
[SPEAKER_04]: Heavy metal all kinds of welding.
12:19
[SPEAKER_04]: The work is
12:21
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, to become certified in some of these jobs, you can't even get certified for two to three years.
12:26
[SPEAKER_04]: And so just to become certified in some of these jobs that takes a long time on the job and then understanding the job to somehow.
12:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Dean that they can be sees no workers is foolishness and the great part of this to me again it's another one of those you know how much is enough I mean how much do you need the line your pockets to take jobs away from people who desperately need them I look at and these aren't look these are good jobs these are good solid family sustaining wage jobs
12:55
[SPEAKER_02]: But you know, they're not CEO jobs.
12:56
[SPEAKER_02]: How can we never get rid of CEOs?
12:58
[SPEAKER_02]: How can we don't automate them?
13:00
[SPEAKER_02]: How can we don't have an AI CEO where, you know, hey, concern for community comes first.
13:07
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, absolutely.
13:08
[SPEAKER_04]: And you know what we do know is we do know that there's been an absolute cannibalization of the railroads for the next current profit.
13:17
[SPEAKER_04]: So short term gain is it's being pushed for, you know, reductions in workforce and costs.
13:24
[SPEAKER_04]: and sell offs and divesting in mines.
13:28
[SPEAKER_04]: This is a, there are, those are a national treasure.
13:30
[SPEAKER_04]: I think you know, this is a big, big, big, expanded, the West.
13:33
[SPEAKER_04]: They still continue to service this country in ways that people just don't understand.
13:38
[SPEAKER_04]: Most of your chemicals are shipped by rail.
13:41
[SPEAKER_04]: Most of your gas and oil is shipped by rail.
13:43
[SPEAKER_04]: Cars, most of the products plastics, all shipped by rail, there's a vital industry.
13:49
[SPEAKER_02]: So let me ask you this because, you know, part of this, my concern is is, I understand the background was there.
13:55
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very, I understand, yeah, last year of the Trump administration gave CSX a wayver that permitted, I guess, weekly inspections.
14:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how, look, when every time I get into a truck, every time that truck gets on the road, it's been inspected by me.
14:11
[SPEAKER_02]: I say, I write down and I say, it's road worthy, there's nothing wrong with it.
14:15
[SPEAKER_02]: And if there is something wrong with it, I go get it fixed.
14:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, now this is that from what I understand this waiver gives CSX to go to do this weekly.
14:24
[SPEAKER_02]: So hey, you know, the other six days of the week, who knows the story that I read said this is going to reduce actual human eyes on this stuff by 40%.
14:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Has that happened?
14:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And is this a part of that?
14:38
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, this is, this is, I wouldn't say it's necessarily part of the cuts.
14:42
[SPEAKER_04]: The whole entire industry is pushing for, so all the rivers are pushing for what they call it an ATI waiver.
14:49
[SPEAKER_04]: It's automated track inspections.
14:52
[SPEAKER_04]: And what they're claiming is that they have machines that will reduce the necessary for tracking inspections.
14:58
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, when I see tracking inspections, I mean the folks that go out and put visual inspections on the track, remember that a large majority of your derailments are caused by defective tracker, defective structure, right?
15:10
[SPEAKER_04]: And so ultimately, they want to reduce the amount of visual track inspections that are being done.
15:14
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, these laws have been put in place for many, many years and on class one rhetoric, main lines, you're required to inspect the track twice a week.
15:23
[SPEAKER_04]: We would argue you should probably do it three or four times a week.
15:27
[SPEAKER_04]: In this particular case, they want to reduce it to a month.
15:33
[SPEAKER_04]: We have these machines that can come out and do these inspections.
15:35
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, we challenged this and we fought with the FR, we were still talking to the FR about this, because these machines have been around since 1972, but they're plugging in the AI name to this, the AI, the AI they're calling it.
15:49
[SPEAKER_04]: And so they're getting those who are naive about the railroad to believe that this is some fancy new technology that they're implementing, but they're actually using direct track geometry cars, which have been around since 1972.
16:03
[SPEAKER_04]: proved to them is that these geometry cars, which we want to be used track geometry cars, they do find the effects that the human eye can't find.
16:11
[SPEAKER_04]: And so, but they've been around since 1972.
16:13
[SPEAKER_04]: We want them to use them.
16:15
[SPEAKER_04]: The problem is is that they only find 27% of the defects in the defect, the FRA defect caused.
16:21
[SPEAKER_04]: The human eye is find the rest.
16:23
[SPEAKER_04]: So the railroads are actually, in my opinion, somewhat to see full about this because they're trying to convince the general
16:31
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, hey, we want to reduce these with this new equipment.
16:34
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's not really new equipment.
16:35
[SPEAKER_04]: It's been around since 1972 and then they're saying, hey, we will find them with these these machines find all this, but they're not asking to use any type of new machinery, they're using track geometry machines that have been around forever, that do not find, you know, defects are not asking for some special kind of cameras that go around and.
16:56
[SPEAKER_04]: check the track, you know, much closer, they don't want to find more defects, more defects means more work and more money.
17:03
[SPEAKER_04]: You have to spend money to fix the defects.
17:05
[SPEAKER_04]: They're trying to take the human aspect out of it so that they don't have to find these defects and slow down the track.
17:12
[SPEAKER_04]: remembering railroad that velocity is everything in velocity is simply speed.
17:17
[SPEAKER_04]: If you slow down trains, it costs money, it costs millions of millions of dollars, the more you slow down the trains and so they don't want the train slow down.
17:26
[SPEAKER_04]: They want to run them with, you know, community and just hey,
17:30
[SPEAKER_04]: If there's a drama, the FRA, the federal government allowed these laws, and here you go, more to realm it.
17:36
[SPEAKER_04]: Time is one obviously.
17:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Time is money.
17:38
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, but that's the corporate mentality, which is why every worker in this country should be a member of a labor union to kind of slow that down, not just for better wages hours conditioned.
17:50
[SPEAKER_02]: for their own safety.
17:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this is the part that's really frustrating because I'm not against using technology to make jobs easier and better, but it's that redundancy of having the human eye on it, that I don't want to lose, but also, and I guess the bigger part of this is this is kind of the canary in the coal mine, if you will, for every worker in this country where the employer may go, hey,
18:11
[SPEAKER_02]: there's an AI solution to your job and you might be out in the street.
18:15
[SPEAKER_02]: So this seems like it's again corporate America, you know, showing its hand that the second they get a chance to replace you, kiss your behind goodbye.
18:25
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I kind of find that this AI move on on these corporations.
18:29
[SPEAKER_04]: The greed is crazy.
18:31
[SPEAKER_04]: They're doing it way too fast, first of all, and they're doing it very unsafely.
18:36
[SPEAKER_04]: they seem to, there's a race to less safety, less, you know, push the technology as fast as you can, just to maximize profits.
18:45
[SPEAKER_04]: And the danger of this is when you do this in industries like the railroad, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, do rail and chemical train.
18:53
[SPEAKER_04]: You destroy people's lives.
18:55
[SPEAKER_04]: I've been to East Palestine, I've talked to the people there.
18:57
[SPEAKER_04]: Their, their houses went from, you know, they lost 75% of value in their homes.
19:03
[SPEAKER_04]: You can't still can't drink the water in the town, they still have terrible problems.
19:08
[SPEAKER_04]: They still have people that the children are getting sick and they they themselves are sick.
19:13
[SPEAKER_04]: They devastated these people's lives and they seem like it's okay to just gamble with this happening again.
19:19
[SPEAKER_04]: It's crazy, Rick.
19:21
[SPEAKER_04]: That's absolutely nuts, or when you're dealing with a remote industry, it's all industries have their own unique issues or problems, but in this industry, you can't play games.
19:31
[SPEAKER_04]: If you drop a train like that in Chicago, you would destroy not just thousands, but millions of people's lives.
19:37
[SPEAKER_04]: Remember, East Palestine is not that far from Pittsburgh, which is a very populated area, but if they want to drop that train in Pittsburgh, you can rest assured that
19:46
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, it would have destroyed the city.
19:48
[SPEAKER_04]: So we're very, very concerned is my job.
19:51
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think all of our workers care too.
19:53
[SPEAKER_04]: When you're a railroad, you can be very invested.
19:55
[SPEAKER_04]: You just like a trucker.
19:56
[SPEAKER_04]: You love the work, you love the job.
19:58
[SPEAKER_04]: You love what you're doing and work.
20:00
[SPEAKER_04]: Dreamly concerned about the direction.
20:02
[SPEAKER_04]: We feeling like we have to save them from themselves because of moving towards the state and all of you.
20:07
[SPEAKER_04]: They're saying, hey, hey, hey, no.
20:11
[SPEAKER_02]: No, ultimately, you are saving them from them.
20:13
[SPEAKER_04]: So I find the defects.
20:15
[SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't solve the problems that doesn't catch the defect on the train on the wheels.
20:20
[SPEAKER_04]: All the carmen are seeing in a different department.
20:22
[SPEAKER_04]: They all say the same thing.
20:24
[SPEAKER_04]: Are union carmen are saying, look, trying to use AI technology to do.
20:27
[SPEAKER_04]: Check all the cars as they go by and all the stuff.
20:30
[SPEAKER_04]: And they're not finding the defects they should.
20:32
[SPEAKER_04]: So this is extremely dangerous.
20:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but again, to me, this is another failure of our political system to get ahead of of what a coming crisis and it's the failure for us to to rain in and put guardrails on AI and all the robotics and the automation and all the stuff that's coming because look, you know, we've got to we've got to.
20:52
[SPEAKER_02]: We've got to give our pound of flesh to corporate America because, you know, evidently, we desperately need them, but this is another one of those moments where our political system has failed us because this, again, East Palestine was not that far a long ago and it should serve as, as that example of maybe we should never allow this to happen again.
21:13
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we've spoke to, we've spoke to several politicians about this.
21:18
[SPEAKER_04]: We meet with them regularly on these issues.
21:20
[SPEAKER_04]: And we find some consensus amongst the Democrats and Republicans, but it seems like it's just not reaching the years of some of these groups that should make these decisions, those particular case, the FRA.
21:33
[SPEAKER_04]: The people that run the FRA have to understand that when something happens in this situation, they've been warned, we've sent the letters, we spoke to them.
21:43
[SPEAKER_04]: And if something
21:47
[SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, you can blame a railroad so much, but if you give them the waivers and you let them do, these are what I highly dangerous it, you know, type of operations, then you're responsible for it.
21:59
[SPEAKER_04]: And we're going to hold you responsible.
22:01
[SPEAKER_04]: So when you do, when something does happen again in it, will I say this?
22:05
[SPEAKER_04]: I hate, I'm not the guy that's, I'm not the people guy that's in cries and says, oh, well, things are going to happen.
22:10
[SPEAKER_04]: The world's going to blow up, but the direction they're going
22:16
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, but this already happened twice since people don't understand that there's been two major chemical spills since then, but they were in an area where they were populated areas.
22:26
[SPEAKER_02]: So how come we don't see with that?
22:27
[SPEAKER_02]: How come that isn't on the nightly news?
22:28
[SPEAKER_02]: How come, how come we're hearing about the latest nonsense outrage bit and we're not hearing that, oh yeah, another trained derailed in chemicals are getting into our water supply and into our environment, how come we're not hearing that, or are these big railroad giants?
22:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Are they so powerful that nobody wants to upset them for advertising dollars?
22:46
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm going to introduce you at all your listeners to a group that not a lot of people know about it's called the AAR and the AAR is a lobby group for the railroad industry and the AAR is very, very great in Washington DC and they have a lot of control and so when these things happen they they're they're tough to fight because they seem to have
23:09
[SPEAKER_04]: Strangle hold on some of the people that should be, you know, allowing this information to go to be disseminated to the general public and they don't, they are able to hide and protect the relatives from quite a bit of bad activity, I'll say it that way.
23:27
[SPEAKER_04]: And so the AR is the group that is responsible for covering up the bodies if you will from these type of situations and they continue to lie they've been we we've had hearings in front of Congress on the sati issue and they flat out lied to them over and testified in light to the Congress.
23:47
[SPEAKER_04]: about what's going on.
23:48
[SPEAKER_04]: They've said, for example, in the ATI, these defects find that these machines find 90% more defects ahead of the AAR, sat there and told them this.
23:57
[SPEAKER_04]: And when he said this, if I would say, well, if it finds 90% more defects, we would be cheered for the machinery, because it would be 90% more work.
24:06
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
24:06
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, how stupid can you possibly be more on, you know, you just purged yourself about a congress.
24:12
[SPEAKER_04]: And and they say things like this constantly and people that are naive don't understand and they believe it or or they don't want to hear the truth, you know, we know that's common to they don't want to hear the truth and so they ignore this this this is a serious serious issue the industry.
24:28
[SPEAKER_04]: is a treasure for this country.
24:30
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm saying we've forget how important it is and the more we allow it to to degrade, be degraded by people that are profiteering off of it.
24:38
[SPEAKER_04]: Short-term CEOs that come in for five or six years and maximizes much profit as they possibly can and suck in the assets out of this national treasure, the worst softly are.
24:49
[SPEAKER_04]: We need to get serious about this in this country because it is it
24:54
[SPEAKER_04]: oftentimes what I call the light blood of our economy.
24:57
[SPEAKER_04]: And when we take it and destroy it or allow it to be destroyed, then we're going to be one day sitting upon this completely, you know, incompetent
25:18
[SPEAKER_02]: in industry, a company that made a billion dollars profit in a quarter, firing 1100 workers.
25:24
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not going to add that much to their bottom line.
25:27
[SPEAKER_02]: What should people be doing?
25:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, look, we all want safe railroads, we want safe communities.
25:31
[SPEAKER_02]: We want good jobs for workers because communities need that income.
25:35
[SPEAKER_02]: This is all part of being part of society.
25:38
[SPEAKER_02]: What do we do?
25:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Do we call our congressman?
25:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Do we yell at our local newspapers?
25:42
[SPEAKER_02]: What are we doing?
25:45
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, well, I always ask, please go, you know, please talk to your congressman.
25:49
[SPEAKER_04]: If you're a union worker.
25:51
[SPEAKER_04]: In your in a different industry, please take the time to call and push these issues and you can always follow us on our website and we always put up the bills that we're trying to push through we have some real safety bills going through right now there's an API bill how bill that's been sponsored is actually made it through it's made it through a couple of phases to the house already we believe that is going to be adopted we have those bill numbers on our website.
26:18
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'd ask that you take the time to look at them if you could and make those calls that's important some of these protect some some of these build will protect some of the head count the jobs and the mandatory inspections and stuff and if you can help us out your your your viewers can help us out in any way.
26:35
[SPEAKER_04]: We appreciate it.
26:37
[SPEAKER_04]: I will see.
26:37
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, our our teams just leave a degree or disagree politics.
26:42
[SPEAKER_04]: He's been fighting these issues for us as well and his level.
26:45
[SPEAKER_04]: He's been having those conversations and certain of meetings and really going to war on these issues for for us.
26:51
[SPEAKER_04]: So I can say that Sean O'Brien has been a very, very helpful to our cause.
26:55
[SPEAKER_02]: uh... when it comes to do when it comes to the real safety bills and stuff that we're pushing right now no good we need it uh... bm w e dot org the website you can check out the brotherhood of maintenance of way employees division of the ibt uh... bm w e dot org uh... Tony great talk with you i i'm hoping people are going to reach out because look as a truck driver i'm not worried that a maybe a i's going to be replacing the inspections and ultimately me
27:22
[SPEAKER_02]: and all of my team's to brothers and sisters.
27:24
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is the beginning of what is a very long fight.
27:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate the time.
27:30
[SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
27:30
[SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for your time, Rick, and thanks for having me on.
27:32
[SPEAKER_04]: I love your show once again.
27:33
[SPEAKER_04]: Keep it up.
27:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks so much.
27:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Appreciate it.
27:35
[SPEAKER_02]: One of your thoughts.
27:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you okay with the AIs?
27:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you okay with automated inspections of trains that are what?
27:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Up to four miles long?
27:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Got to wonder.
27:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to hear your thoughts,
28:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Rick Smith, and this is Labor History in 2.
28:03
[SPEAKER_02]: On this day in Labor History, the year was 1875.
28:06
[SPEAKER_02]: That was the day anti-black violence erupted into a two-day massacre in Clinton, Mississippi.
28:13
[SPEAKER_02]: As many as 2,500 black Republicans and their families met at Moss Hill, a former plantation destroyed during the Civil War.
28:21
[SPEAKER_02]: The day was one of festivities and political speeches ahead of the fall elections.
28:27
[SPEAKER_02]: The county Republican Party invited local Democrats to debate.
28:31
[SPEAKER_02]: The Democratic State's Senatorial candidate did address the crowd.
28:35
[SPEAKER_02]: The editor of a local Republican newspaper, and Union Officer, Captain H. T. Fisher, followed him.
28:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Soon, a group of white Democrats began to heckle Fisher as he spoke.
28:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Republican politicians attempted to quail the growing tensions.
28:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Almost immediately, however, the heckling whites open fire on the crowd.
28:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Women and children fled in all directions as black Republican forces rushed to defend themselves and their families.
29:01
[SPEAKER_02]: By the end of the day, three whites and five blacks were killed.
29:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Clinton's mayor fed off rumors of black retaliation.
29:08
[SPEAKER_02]: He called upon white paramilitary forces the white liners from surrounding areas for assistance.
29:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Several hundred answered the call and filled the town's streets.
29:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Historian Melissa Janzuzki Jones notes that though heavily armed, the white liners accompanied white locals as they rampaged door to door looking for black Republicans to murder.
29:30
[SPEAKER_02]: After two days as many as 50 black clintonians were killed by white Democrats, looking to end reconstruction and regain political control of Mississippi.
29:40
[SPEAKER_02]: A Senate committee would later conclude, quote, The riots at Clinton were part of a special purpose on the part of the Democrats to break up the meetings of Republicans and inaugurate an era of terror.
29:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Not only in those communities, but throughout the state.
29:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Like what you hear, check out more at laborhistoryintu.com.
30:01
[SPEAKER_00]: To cope with the imminent danger posed by today's arrogant profiteering AI Billionaires Donald Trump says that the only thing America needs is they quote strong and smart high IQ president.
30:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, yes, let's try finding one of those.
30:17
[SPEAKER_00]: The president we have now is quite the opposite.
30:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Take the politically explosive issue of massive AI data centers, suddenly intruding into thousands of communities across America, taking people's land, water, electricity, and democratic control.
30:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Even red-state maga conservatives are infurious rebellion against what amounts to a corporate sneak attack on millions of us.
30:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Where's the president when we really need him?
30:44
[SPEAKER_00]: He's plotting with the tech invaders, publicly trashing us grassroots rebels and deploying big government autographs to rig the rules to silence us.
30:54
[SPEAKER_00]: For example, a little-known Trump-operative named Lee Zilden has been embedded as the R of the EPA.
31:01
[SPEAKER_00]: He's now decreeing that there's no need for local communities to be notified that a data center is moving in on them.
31:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Nor should there be any public comment period on air pollution issues.
31:13
[SPEAKER_00]: This means that residents first notice that a sprawling data center is coming will be the roar of bulldozers.
31:21
[SPEAKER_00]: worse, zeld and wants to let that a center billionaire start building their acres of polluting facilities before permits are approved.
31:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, this Maga bureaucrat insists that such massive facilities be reclassified as minor air polluters, like a car repair shop or a laundromat.
31:41
[SPEAKER_00]: This is to my tower saying, Zeldon has also unilaterally refrained the purpose of the EPA.
31:47
[SPEAKER_00]: He has declared that its top priority is no longer environmental protection, but to quote, make the U.S. the artificial intelligence capital of the world.
32:10
[SPEAKER_02]: So as you know, I'm a big supporter of Union Labour.
32:14
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I often tell the story of the tale of two bridges.
32:18
[SPEAKER_02]: The replacement for the tap in Zia, New York, and that monstrosity out in California.
32:23
[SPEAKER_02]: One done under a project, Labour agreement, on time under budget, and the other, well, I don't think they think that's ever going to get done in way over budget.
32:33
[SPEAKER_02]: the one in New York that was done with the project labor agreement was the underbudget on time one and i've been saying for a long time you get what you pay for union labor is skilled labor and they could compensate it for it but i often hear and this is where i love this argument my abc contractor folks the right wing think tanks often tell me that we could save as much as 30 percent
32:55
[SPEAKER_02]: on all building projects.
32:57
[SPEAKER_02]: If we just did away with Davis Bacon and Project Labor Agreements, all this, and you go, anybody knows anything about building those.
33:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Labor isn't even like 30%.
33:06
[SPEAKER_02]: So if people were working for free, they couldn't make that, but what they are arguing for is lower wages for workers, and ultimately what we know when this stuff happens.
33:15
[SPEAKER_02]: lower skill levels.
33:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why I've asked Matt Hinkel to come share some thought with us.
33:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Matt's an associate professor of economics there at all my college.
33:23
[SPEAKER_02]: He's got a new piece out.
33:24
[SPEAKER_02]: The myth that unionized construction costs governments more over at governing.
33:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Matt, thanks for the good time for us.
33:32
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you, Rick.
33:32
[SPEAKER_04]: Great to be here.
33:33
[SPEAKER_02]: So I love this argument because I get it a lot.
33:36
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, if we could just do away with those union rules, if we could just do away with those wages, we could build so much more mad, we could have more schools and bridges and roads.
33:47
[SPEAKER_02]: It would be awesome.
33:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you hear that argument a lot.
33:51
[SPEAKER_03]: It's throwing out there in terms of if you say, if you use non-union labor, potentially less skilled labor, then you could build all this stuff.
34:01
[SPEAKER_03]: You can save all this money.
34:04
[SPEAKER_03]: That argument is out there at a lot of different respects.
34:07
[SPEAKER_03]: But I appreciate you having me out of talk about this paper that I wrote with Maya.
34:13
[SPEAKER_03]: esteemed colleague Dr. Larissa Petruci out in California where we really tackle this argument head on and we got some really great data and I think a really great story to tell.
34:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we'll walk me through what you found because look, I can talk about the tale of two bridges and we can talk about all of this for hours but what did you study?
34:33
[SPEAKER_02]: What was what's the focus of this and and I guess why did you focus on this?
34:38
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so in terms of the why, I think the why is maybe the more important question to start out with, the why is because frankly, this area is just so understudy, you know, and you know, I think that there hasn't really been a cohesive argument that has come out in terms of, you know, really combating these narratives that we hear about, you know, the, you know, how costly you can labor really is.
35:04
[SPEAKER_03]: And so what we did on California, this was a data set of 128 projects, and what we were looking at was do projects led by union contractors, union signatory contractors are those completed faster.
35:22
[SPEAKER_03]: And are they completed more on time and on budget?
35:25
[SPEAKER_03]: And so this was again a data set of 128 projects, 75 of them which were led by union contractors in 53 of them that were not.
35:35
[SPEAKER_03]: So it was a pretty even split there.
35:37
[SPEAKER_03]: And in terms of some of the main findings that we have, the first finding was that the cost overruns were much higher on non-human projects.
35:48
[SPEAKER_03]: So of the 53 non-union projects on average, the difference between the starting cost and the final cost of the project after everything was said and done.
35:59
[SPEAKER_03]: It was over $500,000 greater at the end of the project.
36:06
[SPEAKER_03]: projects.
36:07
[SPEAKER_03]: But on Union projects, those projects that were led by Union contractors, Union Signatory Contractors, it was one tenth of that, only about an average of $50,000 more in in terms of that cost difference between starting finish.
36:24
[SPEAKER_03]: And we also found a timeliness effect as well.
36:27
[SPEAKER_03]: So, on average, union projects were completed about two weeks faster than non-union projects, but then those were kind of more descriptive findings.
36:38
[SPEAKER_03]: Once we employed industry standard, what we call regression analysis.
36:42
[SPEAKER_03]: So, to kind of statistical models that account for all other sorts of things that might impact
36:53
[SPEAKER_03]: how big the initial cost was, whether it was an urban project or a rural project.
36:58
[SPEAKER_03]: And this was in Sacramento County that we focused on, once we ran these statistical models, what we found was that, and this was a significant difference, on average, the difference between start and finish in terms of cost was about 6% less on human-led projects than it was on non-human projects.
37:19
[SPEAKER_03]: uh... and in terms of uh... the timeliness finding when we controlled for all of those other factors uh... the difference was even more start on average uh... union projects were completed uh... an average of about forty to sixty days five so i have my thoughts on why that is did you look into the why it all did you did you try and figure out why non non-union contractors are our further behind and and more costly uh... what was this as a part of that
37:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so we kind of argued the conclusion that we drew from our data was that, you know, you kind of get what you pay for, right, if you're talking about, you know, using, you know, nine union labor versus union labor, it might seem cheaper.
38:04
[SPEAKER_03]: up front when you're doing non-union labor, but ultimately what our study shows and what our study supports and suggests is that when you use union labor and the project is done right the first time and done with more skilled, more trained labor, it's more likely to be be completed on budget as well as on time and even early.
38:29
[SPEAKER_03]: And that has a lot of
38:31
[SPEAKER_03]: I think a lot of implications for a lot of different groups, including taxpayers, because then taxpayers can be more confident that, you know, they can reap the benefits of their investments, because this is ultimately taxpayer dollars funding this stuff.
38:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
38:47
[SPEAKER_03]: And so the fact that they can get a better return on their investment, but also be able to make use of, you know, these things faster.
38:55
[SPEAKER_03]: So schools being completed faster allows that to be used faster by the public.
39:02
[SPEAKER_03]: And so ultimately, I think it comes down to the fact that this is a, ultimately, this is a benefit to taxpayers.
39:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the other reasons I throw out there is look union workers are just better skilled.
39:16
[SPEAKER_02]: They're better trained.
39:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Their apprenticeships are much better, not only are they much better, they're completed more often.
39:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know my ABC contractor friends are like, no, we got an apprenticeship program.
39:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I know so many people have begun those programs and never finish, it just seems like they're trying to turn out cheaper labor and calling them apprentices instead of moving them along in their career like you see in the union building trades of which you know my son is in one of these these union building trades programs.
39:47
[SPEAKER_02]: They're they're fantastic and he makes a great wage and
39:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and there's another study that my colleague, a doctor, Paturgy, did in California, where she looked at a apprenticeship specifically, and what she found to your plate Rick, is that the registered apprenticeship system, the union system, trains over 90% of apprentices in the state of California.
40:11
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's true, you know, all throughout the country.
40:14
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that gets at this point that you also hear a lot about, you know, the skilled labor shortage in the trades.
40:20
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you know, we can't get enough people in the trades.
40:23
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think that depends on what segment of the industry you're talking about.
40:27
[SPEAKER_03]: If you're talking about the non-union side of the industry where the pay is worse, the benefits are worse, you know, the training is less.
40:36
[SPEAKER_03]: Then yeah, that's where you're going to find the shortages, but as I'm sure you can speak to maybe firsthand, when it comes to those union apprenticeship programs, the lines are out the door.
40:48
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, ultimately, when it comes to the labor shortage, the labor shortage is non-union specific.
40:55
[SPEAKER_03]: That problem just isn't really there on the union side of the industry.
40:59
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's what our study also speaks to.
41:01
[SPEAKER_02]: No, look, isn't apprenticeship when he, he, he do want to take the test.
41:05
[SPEAKER_02]: There were 400 people who signed up for, I think, like, I think there were eight positions that they were going to fill.
41:10
[SPEAKER_02]: So you had 400 people because just to your point.
41:13
[SPEAKER_02]: They're good paying jobs, with good benefits, solid retirement, and a training program that you get paid while you learn.
41:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And you don't end up with a lifetime of debt over your head by just trying to get some skills.
41:24
[SPEAKER_02]: So for me, all of this, it puts me in the right direction, but from just a citizen standpoint, or a business owner standpoint,
41:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I want those workers making a good wage because I want them going into the community and spending that money that they've got a little disposable income in their pocket.
41:41
[SPEAKER_02]: It's that reverberation effect through the local economy, a local trade with local workers spending a little disposable income and the local economy is not a bad thing, Matt.
41:53
[SPEAKER_03]: absolutely so yeah that local multiplier effect you're talking about we absolutely see that and there's other factors to consider here as well so in terms of this argument that you know not even in labor saves money well the other issue to think about here is safety right on the job site and there's tons of research including research that we cite in our own study
42:16
[SPEAKER_03]: There's tons of research out there that suggests that, you know, when projects are led by Union Signatory Contractors, using primarily Union Labor hired through those Union hiring halls, that job sites are safer.
42:31
[SPEAKER_03]: So injuries and even fatalities are significantly less on those job sites.
42:36
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's even a really good study that we cite in our paper that says that Union
42:44
[SPEAKER_03]: to have all the necessary personal protective equipment that's needed in order to ensure that safety on the job site.
42:51
[SPEAKER_03]: So again, it's that argument of, you know, you get what you pay for.
42:55
[SPEAKER_03]: If you use that better skilled labor, better trained labor, that is also better paid.
43:01
[SPEAKER_03]: You're going to end up with a better product at the end.
43:03
[SPEAKER_03]: That is completed like we show in our study faster, more on time and more on budget.
43:10
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's always amazing to me that the contractor class with their political class, just say, you know, hey, if we could just pay those workers the last, you know, if we could get rid of that project labor agreement or that Davis bacon or or the state baby bacon, get rid of all the prevailing wage stuff that we could pay people less than we could do other things and what we find is places that have done away with prevailing wage and done away with, you know, the project labor agreements, look at West Virginia as the
43:38
[SPEAKER_02]: you know what they find is the industry starts to go away and they realize that one they're losing their skilled trades and to their costs per project keep going up and I think it was the senator Jim justice now who is then governor who said we did all the things we passed the no rights to work stuff we did away with prevailing weight and none of it benefited us so I think the message we got to start pushing back on because the corporate message is union labor is just too rich we just can't afford it we can't do enough I think
44:08
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the message should be, we can't afford not to have union labor.
44:12
[SPEAKER_03]: Which, to your point, you mentioned the West Virginia example, there are certainly others in Diana was another one where there was a really good study done by the Midwest Economic Policy Institute where they quoted even Republican legislators in Indiana that said, we thought we were going to save all this money and we didn't save a dime, right?
44:36
[SPEAKER_03]: Even take my home state of Michigan.
44:41
[SPEAKER_03]: repealed prevailing wage in 2018 only to bring it back six years later recently in 2024 in part because I think there was that realization of you know we're not saving the money that we thought we would save and in fact it's only made things worse from the skilled trade standpoint here in Michigan so I think you know that's you know I think Michigan is another good example to point to of why you know it was so important to bring back prevailing wage and bring back
45:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And also not to bring you into a partisan fight here, but also I politics matters because it was a Republican governor and a Republican legislature in Michigan that that ram through all of the no rights at work and all the end of prevailing wage and it was it was you know Whitmer and the Democrats who brought it back so you know it's it's pretty it's pretty pretty simple so you know when I look at this and this is where my struggle comes because I want the simplest answer
45:35
[SPEAKER_02]: So for me, when I see your study, help me here because when I see it, I see, okay, the contractor got the higher cheaper labor, unskilled labor, the costs are enormously higher.
45:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Why was it enormously higher?
45:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Was it just bad work?
45:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Or was it the contractor lining his own pockets?
45:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Because nobody's paying attention.
45:54
[SPEAKER_02]: No one's minding the taxpayer dollar.
45:57
[SPEAKER_02]: So, or is it a combination of both the effect?
46:01
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and we weren't able to dig as deep on this angle that we wanted to under study, we're actually hoping to get more data on this to be able to explore this further in a future study, but part of what we think was going on there.
46:14
[SPEAKER_03]: was you think about change orders, right?
46:17
[SPEAKER_03]: And in the middle of a project, you know, hey, there's this unexpected delay that we ran into.
46:23
[SPEAKER_03]: So we need to file this change order that impacts the costs and the timeline.
46:28
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we found some sort of preliminary evidence in our study that it was those non-union contractors, those non-union led projects that were doing more of those change orders and more significant.
46:42
[SPEAKER_03]: change orders and I in part because I think of the kinds of things we've been talking about you know about how union labor gets the job done right the first time.
46:51
[SPEAKER_03]: When you know you have you know a non-union contractor leading a project you might end up having more of those change orders that cause you know those delays that push the project out further and then of course when that happens oftentimes that leads to more cost over runs.
47:08
[SPEAKER_03]: uh... so it's also an efficiency argument that we make in our paper that uh... yep so it's an efficiency argument that if it's union led primarily union labor uh... then it's going to be more likely to be done right and done quickly uh... but i still come back to that i don't think the contractors are losing out uh... because when i think that they want to you they want you working for less uh... where's that money going it's going into somebody's pocket and i i
47:35
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd like to see a study on that to help me work through some of that.
47:38
[SPEAKER_02]: So last line of question I've got for you, for policymakers, this seems kind of like a simple no-brainer that this is something that we should put the bed already and stop listening to the ABC contractors and stop listening to the people who spend their lives bashing unions and maybe go sit down and hush up a bit.
47:59
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it seems, and this was even something we were talking about as we were, you know, putting the study together, it does seem obvious, but, you know, at the same time, that's why it's important, I think, to, you know, have this study out there and have this work out there and have more work like it out there.
48:18
[SPEAKER_03]: to be able to put on paper and have data to back up.
48:23
[SPEAKER_03]: What seems like a pretty obvious and simple and straightforward point to make, but I think it also speaks to the fact that even with this study out there and even with this work that's continuing to pop up, when it comes to construction research, there's still a lot more work out there to do.
48:42
[SPEAKER_02]: There's still more work in terms of making these arguments clear for contractors for policy makers and for, you know, construction industry actors as a whole are they paying attention to this I guess I mean I any response to this because I couldn't find the ABC response which, you know, probably or the Chamber of Commerce response what kind of response even getting.
49:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, we haven't gotten, I haven't seen responses from, from them either, but we have gotten a lot of really positive response from, you know, the, like the, the more unionized segment of the industry, you know, people reaching out to us, you know, saying, hey, this is really great study, this really supports.
49:22
[SPEAKER_03]: the kinds of things to your point and the kinds of things that we've been saying for a really long time.
49:28
[SPEAKER_03]: So we haven't seen any sort of opposition response to this.
49:32
[SPEAKER_03]: We still might.
49:33
[SPEAKER_03]: There's still plenty of time, but you know at the same time, I think it's important to point out here, in terms of my positionality and all of this.
49:42
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not affiliated with a union, I am an independent academic who let the data tell the story in this paper.
49:51
[SPEAKER_03]: This was not inherently a politically driven paper.
49:55
[SPEAKER_03]: This was an empirical paper where we are letting the data do the work or letting the data tell the story and the data was telling a very clear story about the benefits of union contractors and union labor.
50:10
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's a good work, you know, and look, it's about, you know, pinching the quarter till the Eagle screams and getting the best buck bang of our taxpayer dollars, and that is always going to be with union labor medical.
50:21
[SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate you sharing some thoughts on this.
50:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope folks will check out the myth that unionized construction costs.
50:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Governments more, you get that over at governing.org, I believe.
50:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Matt's an assistant professor of economics.
50:32
[SPEAKER_02]: They're at all my college.
50:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Matt, thanks so much.
50:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much Rick.
50:36
[SPEAKER_03]: Great to be here.
50:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Great talking with you.
50:40
[SPEAKER_02]: you in the trade somewhere does it hold up in your neck of the woods or please an ABC contractor reach out to me and tell me where he's wrong.
50:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Rick at therixmithshow.com back after this.
50:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Rick Smith, and this is Labor History in 2.
51:01
[SPEAKER_02]: On this day in Labor History, the year was 1918.
51:05
[SPEAKER_02]: That was the day that the industrial workers of the world union was banned in Canada.
51:10
[SPEAKER_02]: The industrial workers of the world union had grown steadily in Canada, reaching as many as 10,000 members by 1911.
51:17
[SPEAKER_02]: The union was especially strong in mining, logging, and the textile industry.
51:22
[SPEAKER_02]: But backlash against the radical union was mounting in the United States and in Canada.
51:27
[SPEAKER_02]: swept up in red scare hysteria, the governments of both nations targeted the IWW.
51:33
[SPEAKER_02]: With the beginning of World War I, Labor unions that dared to threaten strikes or to speak out against militarization were met with harsh reprisals.
51:43
[SPEAKER_02]: By 1914, the Canadian IWW had less than 1,000 members.
51:48
[SPEAKER_02]: In May of 1918, 18 Canadian IWW leaders were arrested while they attended a meeting in Ottawa.
51:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Those arrested were immigrants and were sent to a labor internment camp.
51:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Then the Canadian government moved to ban the organization altogether.
52:04
[SPEAKER_02]: The ban against the IWW would last until the end of World War I.
52:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Those found to be affiliated with the Union faced up to five years in prison.
52:14
[SPEAKER_02]: 13 other organizations were also banned in Canada, including the Chinese Labor Association and the social labor party.
52:21
[SPEAKER_02]: The act further read that it was illegal to attend meetings, except religious services during the present war at which the proceedings are conducted in the language of any country with which Canada is at war.
52:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Or in the languages of Russia, Ukraine or Finland.
52:38
[SPEAKER_02]: After the war, the IWW was once again allowed in Canada, and slowly began to rebuild, but the scars inflicted during the war years took a lasting toll on the Union's membership.
52:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Labor History in 2 brought to you by the Illinois Labor History Society and the Rick Smith Show.
52:54
[SPEAKER_02]: For more information, go to laborhistrian2.com.
53:08
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's amazing to me that the argument that building crime, the the ABC contractors made, you know, if we could when right wing think tanks, especially if we can just do away with those project labor agreements and that that prevailing wedge 30% and and you get people who are going to take that especially in the construction industry and it's always amazing to me that that you would want to work for less.
53:32
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's the part that I'm just
53:35
[SPEAKER_02]: I haven't figured out yet.
53:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I haven't figured out what it is about us to go, no, no, no, no, no, we should save the employers somebody by working for less.
53:44
[SPEAKER_02]: They should get more of the wealth that our labor creates.
53:47
[SPEAKER_02]: It's bizarre.
53:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And I happen to see an article over at entrepreneur.com.
53:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Ah, that caught my attention.
53:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, you know, maybe I'm wrong.
54:02
[SPEAKER_02]: But this headline just just grabbed me that said business costs are increasing and unions are not helping
54:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's what employers need to know.
54:13
[SPEAKER_02]: And look, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a hodgepodge of, beware, the unions, the unions raise cost for everybody because they want livable wages.
54:24
[SPEAKER_02]: They want health care, they want safe working conditions.
54:26
[SPEAKER_02]: They want to have a decent life.
54:28
[SPEAKER_02]: They want their labor to mean something to their families.
54:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Not just by doing a good job for you, which people do, but also that idea of working hard playing by the rules getting ahead.
54:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And the article's interesting in that they go into a little bit of labor history that I don't normally see, but they're kind of giving some background to maybe why.
54:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think they get a little bit of a wrong, you know, they go back to 1794 with the federal society of journeyman courtwinders in Philadelphia who formed the union because they were working,
55:10
[SPEAKER_02]: and how in Massachusetts in 1842 court gave the workers the right to organize and he didn't even talk about in the 1950s how 35% of the workforce was unionized.
55:20
[SPEAKER_02]: How even up until 1980, on 1983, around 20% of the workers were unionized.
55:31
[SPEAKER_02]: And the points out that look, you know, the fact that the matter is is, it's been dropping steadily and why bad policy.
55:37
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't make that connection.
55:39
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's the Reagan era policy that's even stepped on it even more.
55:44
[SPEAKER_02]: But they did it on something I thought was interesting because I do believe about a third is the natural rate.
55:51
[SPEAKER_02]: of unionization in an economy about a third of the workers and they point out that the public sector thirty eight percent of public sector employees are members of organized labor and that's at the end of twenty twenty five uh... so you have kind of gave a little bit of that now the argument that they make as well you have people with the white unions anymore because you know that they needed them back then
56:14
[SPEAKER_02]: But they did point out that largest percentage of union members in the last 16 years, and they asked the question, how can we as business leaders improve working conditions to the point where unions are not needed anymore and not even talked about as an option.
56:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Now some have used, go back to the era of yellow dog contracts.
56:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And now, they tried the, you know, the non-compete agreements and they just fire people.
56:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, it's better than shooting them like they've done in the past.
56:53
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's an interesting question because I've always said there would be no need for unions.
56:59
[SPEAKER_02]: If workers were treated well, if they got good wages, if they got good health care, if they worked in safe working conditions, if they were treated well, if they felt valued and respected, those are all things that employers have absolute control over.
57:16
[SPEAKER_02]: From the day you're hired, I often, when I was doing organizing, I often use the analogy of a baby.
57:23
[SPEAKER_02]: When you bring a baby into this world, you have such great hopes.
57:26
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they're gonna solve, you know, cancer, gonna go to the moon, gonna be just the smartest best, you know, be the renaissance baby, gonna be an athlete, gonna be a scholar, gonna be a philosopher, king, you know, whatever your hopes and dreams are.
57:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Same thing would start a new job.
57:43
[SPEAKER_02]: You've got great hopes, you've got great, great dreams of hey, I'm going to do well.
57:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to make a good living, life is going to be good and then you get beat down every step of the way and the reason, at least in my experience, the reason most people want to look for unions is respect is safety wages were down on the list most of the time.
58:06
[SPEAKER_02]: No, he did throw out the wages are set by market forces.
58:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Like they've never been set before.
58:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Like no, that's not true.
58:16
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not true at all.
58:18
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no invisible hand that's setting a market rate.
58:21
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what businesses do.
58:24
[SPEAKER_02]: They're offering is little as you're willing to take.
58:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And in desperate times, desperate workers are willing to take desperate wages.
58:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is what I have in a union demanding higher wages, actually having the information of how much the wage should be so important.
58:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And when a union sits down and negotiate a contract, they want to see the books, they want to see how much wealth that labor force is putting into the coffers.
58:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And then they want to share of it, not all of it, but they want to share of it.
59:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And for me, that's the conversation we need to have.
59:03
[SPEAKER_02]: But this idea that unions aren't helping us make more money.
59:09
[SPEAKER_02]: One is ludicrous, skilled workers do make more money.
59:12
[SPEAKER_02]: But the idea that somehow, this guy thinks they should just be, I don't know, working for less is beyond me.
59:20
[SPEAKER_02]: But I want to hear your thoughts.
59:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Email me, ricketerricksmithshow.com.
59:23
[SPEAKER_02]: You've got to thought on this, ricketerricksmithshow.com.
59:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Miss any portion of the program grab the podcast or if you get your favorite podcast, you will find hours and as always.
59:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks so much for being here.
59:35
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll see you back here next time.
59:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Until next time, this has been The Rick Smith Show.
59:57
[SPEAKER_01]: We're working people, come to talk.