Latest / Rusty's Garage / Lee Holdsworth (Part 1)

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Lee Holdsworth (Part 1) · Rusty's Garage

• 0:02
  A listener production.
• 0:12
  I'm automotive commentator and journalist Greg Rust and this is Rusty's Garage.
• 0:27
  For this episode, I'm in New Zealand, south of Auckland, ahead of the final ever supercars event at Bukakoe before the track closes in April 2023.
• 0:37
  My guest is Lee Holdsworth, one of the most respected drivers in the sport.
• 0:42
  His Bathurst win in December 21 with Chas Mostert and the Walkinshaw and Dready United team was a popular one and a significant breakthrough in Lee's career.
• 0:51
  He finally put a great race win on that CV.
• 0:56
  The timing of our conversation follows his recent announcement that Lee will retire from full-time driving at season's end.
• 1:03
  We talk about Bathurst.
• 1:05
  the future of some of his on- and off-track plans.
• 1:08
  Through our convo, you'll get a sense of his incredible loyalty, one of the hallmarks of his career, insights into important relationships that have been pivotal to doors that he worked hard to open along the way and how even those that were tested, like his association with Charlie Schwerkolt, for example, Lee extended the olive branch on to get things back on track.
• 1:31
  They're good now.
• 1:33
  This is a two-part chat, more than an hour 45 of conversation, and both of them are available for your listening pleasure, hopefully, in our Rusty's Garage library right now.
• 1:44
  We are sitting outside in the backyard of his Grove Racing stablemate, Matt Payne's parents' place.
• 1:50
  It's a sunny day.
• 1:52
  The louvre on the cover of the outdoor area is open.
• 1:56
  The family cat even makes a cameo along the way.
• 2:00
  We begin at a turning point in life and racing for Lee.
• 2:07
  Welcome.
• 2:07
  Thank you.
• 2:08
  It is good to catch up with you, but at a really timely point.
• 2:13
  Let's start with, if you don't mind, retirement mark two, or from full-time driving at least, anyway.
• 2:20
  And it sounds like it's more on your terms.
• 2:22
  A little bit more on my terms this time.
• 2:25
  Retirement mark one certainly was...
• 2:30
  Ah, out of the blue for me.
• 2:32
  So, you know, at the end of 2020, came out of Bathurst and, you know, I was pretty upbeat about that weekend.
• 2:38
  We provisional pole and finished up seventh with Caruso, which wasn't the result that we were after, but it still wasn't too bad.
• 2:46
  And felt we'd made some good steps with the car, at least for qualifying, you know, because...
• 2:52
  As you know, this category's mostly about qualifying.
• 2:56
  And we'd found a couple of little tweaks in the car that were really good for switching that tyre on.
• 3:01
  And then after Bathurst, yeah, thought, beauty, 2021 will be a good year.
• 3:07
  And then got the phone call that 2021...
• 3:11
  wasn't going to be well wasn't it was a late in the game phone call too wasn't it it was a very late phone call so yeah um long story short i yeah didn't have a drive for the following year because tickford moved from four cars down to three and uh i was the the sacrificial lamb and all that um
• 3:33
  You okay with that now?
• 3:34
  Like, a bit of time has passed?
• 3:35
  Yeah, like, to be honest, like, at the time I understood it.
• 3:38
  I was pissed off, but I understood it, and I understood it from, oh, I can always see both sides, you know, I'm not...
• 3:45
  completely biased like some people but I could understand their point of view.
• 3:52
  If you don't have the money to run the car, you can't run it.
• 3:57
  And plus they only had three licenses.
• 3:59
  So what were they meant to do?
• 4:01
  Someone had to take the fall and Jack had brought truck assist with him and they were on my car.
• 4:09
  So when Supercheap left, truck assist went on to Jack's car.
• 4:13
  So
• 4:13
  Yeah, it was pretty...
• 4:17
  I could understand why I was the one that was leaving and no one else.
• 4:21
  But, yeah, it wasn't the way... For me, I hadn't planned for the following year with anything else, obviously, because I knew I'd had a contract in front of me.
• 4:31
  So then it came to the point where I thought, well, it was too late in the game to get a drive for the 2021 season.
• 4:37
  What's going through your mind at this point?
• 4:39
  Because you're probably thinking, I mean, you're still late 30s.
• 4:40
  You've still got lots of good stuff you had to want to do, to tick, to achieve.
• 4:46
  It would have been quite hard to deal with privately, I would have thought.
• 4:49
  It was hard in a few ways.
• 4:51
  I'd been trying for a long time to get back into a competitive seat.
• 4:58
  And I finally felt like I'd done that and I was pretty comfortable.
• 5:02
  I had good teammates.
• 5:04
  I had working well with my engineer and enjoyed the people that I was working with.
• 5:12
  And then we'd just come off two years of COVID-related challenges.
• 5:17
  And so, yeah, it was a massive hit.
• 5:25
  personally I think was the hardest thing.
• 5:29
  You go through this whole career sacrificing everything for the sport that you love.
• 5:35
  Since we were, you know, since you're, you know, knee height to a grasshopper, you concentrate on doing this as a profession and you don't really focus on a life outside of motorsport.
• 5:47
  So, yeah, at that point, I just had nothing to go to.
• 5:51
  And that was a real...
• 5:53
  Were you difficult to live with then?
• 5:54
  And what was Alana like?
• 5:55
  Yeah, I was.
• 5:56
  I mean, she's obviously, you know, your biggest supporter.
• 5:58
  Yeah, Alana was a massive, massive support.
• 6:02
  And just to make matters worse, at the start of 2021, we went through some more personal challenges.
• 6:13
  had a miscarriage at 32 weeks.
• 6:16
  So that was in January.
• 6:17
  So the hits just kept coming.
• 6:20
  And, you know, whilst we're on the ground, we'd cop another, you know, kick to the guts.
• 6:24
  And so, yeah, that was probably the most difficult time of my life up to this point, for sure.
• 6:30
  And, you know, and then it came down to I was trying to support Alana, but then at the same time she was probably supporting me more, which wasn't fair.
• 6:42
  But she helped get me back, you know, to where I am now.
• 6:46
  You know, she's been a massive support throughout my whole career and wouldn't be...
• 6:52
  wouldn't have gone as long or maybe not even got into the sport professionally if it wasn't for her.
• 6:59
  So she's been there since I started when I was 20 years old and then became professional when I was 22.
• 7:05
  And so she got me back on track and I got my life back together and tried to support her as much as I could at the same time.
• 7:18
  So, yeah, got a, got a, picked up a good enduro gig and got a job with, with a tool company as an ambassador.
• 7:27
  And, and then, you know, I knew that that wasn't going to last forever and I was doing TCR as well.
• 7:34
  And then back to that whole chasing budgets and stuff like that, which...
• 7:38
  It's hard.
• 7:39
  It's hard.
• 7:39
  You know, that's the stuff you do at the start of your career, not at the end.
• 7:43
  So I sort of wondered what the hell I was doing with myself.
• 7:47
  And I spent the year looking for other jobs, other opportunities.
• 7:50
  And what?
• 7:51
  And, well...
• 7:52
  I was reaching out to my sponsors and I had an opportunity with, I'd spoken to Marcus Preston, who Preston hire, and the boys are sitting there taking photos, Matt Payne and David Reynolds.
• 8:06
  Of course.
• 8:07
  Of course.
• 8:08
  Of course.
• 8:10
  Yeah, he'd presented an opportunity to me, which was looking really cool, and then sat down with one of Riley, my son's best friend's dad's, who we've got to know pretty well over the last few years.
• 8:25
  He was having a beer in lockdown, even though we weren't meant to be, and he said, what's the next move for you, mate?
• 8:33
  I said, honestly, I just don't know.
• 8:36
  I'm at a fork in the road.
• 8:38
  All I know is racing and now I've got to try and find something else which I've never prepared for in my life, which I just thought I'm pretty stupid.
• 8:47
  You know, it got to that point and I thought, why haven't I prepared myself?
• 8:50
  That's hard though because, you know, you made a lot of sacrifices when you were younger to do this.
• 8:54
  It was your pure passion, which you just talked about.
• 8:58
  Suddenly, beyond your control, the drug is going to stop.
• 9:01
  And not everyone does that because you have to be immersed in it, mate, to make it work, don't you?
• 9:07
  You have to be.
• 9:09
  And I often say to young kids, try to have something on the side.
• 9:14
  But then at the same time, you're like, but if you're concentrating on something else, you can't put full focus into racing, which you need to be professional in racing, to become professional in racing.
• 9:23
  You have to sacrifice everything.
• 9:26
  But then at the end of it all, you're pretty much left with not a lot.
• 9:30
  You know, you've got, well, it depends which way you look at it.
• 9:33
  You come out of it with great connections, which we can use to our advantage in business.
• 9:40
  And, you know, some great relationships, a lot of...
• 9:44
  people skills, public speaking, you know, a little bit of sales in that we had to sell ourselves to personal sponsors and that sort of thing.
• 9:53
  So you sort of come out of it with a lot of skills, but no qualifications.
• 9:59
  And in racing, there's only so far you can go.
• 10:03
  And really, the way that I see it, you know, the pinnacle is being the driver.
• 10:09
  But where do you go after that?
• 10:10
  And...
• 10:12
  And that's what I see is so hard for the drivers.
• 10:16
  And in any sport, I think it's hard.
• 10:18
  But there's probably a little bit more support in some other sports than what we have in supercars.
• 10:22
  And we've often looked at driver unions and that sort of thing and having an association to help position yourself better.
• 10:31
  Not all managers do that well either.
• 10:33
  They're there for those that use them along the way and help commercially, but not all of them have this kind of succession planning thing, do they?
• 10:41
  No, definitely.
• 10:41
  I think the managers are mostly focused on getting the drivers into the best seat possible and trying to get sponsors for the drivers and...
• 10:51
  And that's probably as far as it goes, to be honest.
• 10:53
  I don't think they look beyond racing itself.
• 10:56
  So, anyway, Chris O'Brien is his name from CBRE Commercial Real Estate.
• 11:03
  And he said, have you thought about real estate?
• 11:05
  I said, not a chance.
• 11:07
  He said, I'm not a salesman.
• 11:09
  He said, you don't have to be.
• 11:10
  You just have to be good with building relationships and have good connections.
• 11:15
  And I thought, well, okay, well, I think I'm pretty good at both of those things.
• 11:21
  He suggested a new business line for CBRE, which was an industry, you know, the industry that I've been involved in, which is automotive and oil and gas and service stations and car dealerships, all that sort of stuff.
• 11:36
  And they didn't have anyone that really specialises in it just yet.
• 11:40
  And they thought this could be right up my alley.
• 11:42
  So...
• 11:43
  You know, when that opportunity came about, I couldn't really, it was exciting.
• 11:50
  And I thought, I've got to give this a crack.
• 11:53
  So the plan was to go full-time this year and then Bathurst rolls around.
• 12:02
  Pretty special moment in your life.
• 12:03
  Pretty special, yeah.
• 12:04
  Yeah, very special.
• 12:06
  and you know i always had i never thought that we wouldn't have a chance of winning that race like you go there i've been there so many times and there's probably never been a time where i've been as confident going into that race as last year um a great team great driver chas um you know i knew
• 12:29
  Chas is fast there.
• 12:31
  Wilkinshaws always did a good job with strategy as well and had good fuel economy.
• 12:36
  So going into that race, you know, I had this mindset that nothing was going to be good enough but a win, and you don't get that often, you know, but when you get that feeling, you sort of, like, it doesn't come for no reason.
• 12:52
  You know that you're going to have a great opportunity, and we just had a rip of time, and in the lead-up to it, you know, we had a couple of...
• 12:59
  We had great test days.
• 13:01
  Is that where you got the confidence feeling?
• 13:04
  Well, I was a little bit concerned about the height difference between myself and Chas and his driving style and whether I'd fit in with that.
• 13:15
  But from the first test day, I jumped in and honestly, it was like I had a pretty big seat insert.
• 13:21
  It was like a phone book.
• 13:22
  But...
• 13:24
  uh i was comfortable and and the car was comfortable for me to drive and it was sort of like well what do i need and you know i'd give my feedback and it'd be exactly the same as chas and so we could just jump in and out of the car and keep tuning it which was great because sometimes drivers like little subtle differences um which can be you know it can be the difference between a couple of tenths on the track but
• 13:48
  But Chas and I just wanted exactly the same thing and even more so when it came to Bathurst.
• 13:53
  So I think in the practice sessions, as soon as we drove out, as soon as I drove out for my session, I thought I think Chas had his session first and it was looking strong and then I rolled out.
• 14:03
  I went, yep, this is feeling pretty bloody good.
• 14:07
  We knew because we rolled out such a great car,
• 14:11
  we got to that point where we were probably pre-empting the track conditions for each session.
• 14:19
  And so we sort of felt like we were probably one step ahead of everyone from the start of the week because, you know, generally you roll out and, okay, we've got understeer over the top or, you know, we need more rear wing and then it affects other parts of the track when you do that.
• 14:34
  Just from the get-go.
• 14:37
  To have that balance at the start of the week was really cool and we sort of felt like we had that in our pocket pretty early in the week and we just kept building on it.
• 14:46
  And then just we got to a point where we were like, well, what do we need to do?
• 14:49
  Okay, well, let's try...
• 14:51
  if this happens with the track, we want to know what we need to do to tune the car, so then we're just trying stuff that we really didn't, you know, it was just a bonus.
• 15:01
  And, you know, and becomes qualifying and the race, and we all know what happened.
• 15:07
  It was, yeah, we just had a dominant car, and it was just such an enjoyable weekend.
• 15:11
  And I guess looking back on that now, you know,
• 15:16
  It's contributed a bit to the decision that I've come to retire, that I've ticked that box.
• 15:23
  Yes, I would have loved to have won it as a main driver and still, you know, this year's still an opportunity.
• 15:30
  But...
• 15:31
  You know, I was proud of my efforts in that race and to bounce back from what had happened in 2020, I was pretty satisfied with stepping outside of motorsport at the end of 2021.
• 15:46
  But then the phone rang, well, it actually rang in the lead up to the race from Stephen Grove.
• 15:54
  who said that they were interested in putting me in the car for the following year.
• 15:58
  Let's chat after the round.
• 16:00
  And on the Tuesday he rang me and said, we want to sign you.
• 16:04
  So at that point I thought, shit, I've already decided I'm full-time next year with CBRE.
• 16:10
  And, but, you know, so I had to juggle a few things and try and line it all up.
• 16:16
  And, you know, CBRE, Chris O'Brien was very supportive of it and, you know,
• 16:22
  knew that if there's an opportunity to keep going in this sport full-time, I remember he said to me after the race, mate, you can't stop racing after that.
• 16:32
  How fantastic.
• 16:33
  Yeah, so now I'm part-time, so I went on a part-time basis.
• 16:39
  and had this agreement that we'll go full-time once supercars, full-time racing is over.
• 16:45
  So a bit to unpack here, and I'm going to dive in different directions if we can.
• 16:49
  Firstly, you had, because of what unfolded in COVID, a bit of a plan, which is good.
• 16:54
  Maybe it came about...
• 16:55
  not in a manner that you were anticipating in a planning, a long-term planning sense, but you had something.
• 17:02
  So at what point this year, knowing you'd been through all of that, come back one Bathurst and so on, at what point did you go, okay, I'm going to call time?
• 17:10
  Where were you when you made that decision?
• 17:11
  What did you tell Alana and so on?
• 17:14
  Well, I'd only done a 12-month deal with Stephen Grove Racing, Penrite Racing, and so I always thought that this would be my last year.
• 17:24
  I never thought that another opportunity would arise at the end of this year.
• 17:31
  It's not ideal doing a 12-month deal, but it was a great, for me, I had in my mind that
• 17:39
  this gives me an opportunity to come back and finish on my own terms and, you know, finish the way that I want to finish, um, and, and know when my time is up.
• 17:51
  And so I had that in mind, but then an opportunity popped up and it was a, it was a very good opportunity that, you know, it was hard decision to say no, um, and,
• 18:03
  But once, and that was developing well before Sandown.
• 18:08
  And then Sandown rolled around and I hit 500 races, which I thought, like, I never thought about it.
• 18:15
  I never thought about how many races I'm up to.
• 18:19
  But then once I hit 500, I look at the names that I was amongst with those.
• 18:23
  Pretty cool club, mate.
• 18:24
  Yeah, cool club.
• 18:26
  And I thought, that's a hell of a lot of races.
• 18:32
  And a lot of challenges along the way, but heaps of enjoyment.
• 18:36
  And I thought, you know, like I've ticked so many boxes that I wanted to tick in this sport.
• 18:41
  Yes, I would have loved to have won more races or a championship.
• 18:45
  I don't think any of us come out of it entirely satisfied with what we've done.
• 18:50
  But whether you've won one race or you've won 100 races, I'm sure Wincup would have probably liked to have won a few more or Lowndes or whoever.
• 18:59
  But...
• 19:01
  I just thought, you know, it's probably time.
• 19:04
  I've got something in the background now.
• 19:05
  There's probably kids that want it more than me now and are prepared to sacrifice more than I am.
• 19:12
  And plus...
• 19:13
  Alana and the kids have given so much back, or given so much to me in what they've sacrificed as well that I thought, you know, it's time to be a real dad that's at home each weekend and helping out with the kids' sport, which is just getting more and more full on.
• 19:33
  And I love it.
• 19:34
  I love being involved.
• 19:35
  I help coach Ava's basketball team and just really enjoy that side of it.
• 19:41
  You know, it's just time.
• 19:43
  Are you a competitive coach?
• 19:44
  What do you like?
• 19:45
  Only a little bit.
• 19:46
  Why does that shock me?
• 19:49
  I'm not the BMX dad, though.
• 19:51
  I'm not the BMX dad.
• 19:53
  So, yeah, I told Alana.
• 19:58
  She just wanted me to do it.
• 20:00
  She wanted it to be my decision.
• 20:02
  Good stuff.
• 20:02
  And I knew it had been quite hard.
• 20:04
  It's been quite hard on her.
• 20:09
  Probably the last few years has been really hard.
• 20:12
  You know, going through last year, that was a terrible year apart from a few great things.
• 20:18
  And that took its toll.
• 20:19
  And so I just thought, you know, it's time to man up and, you know, get a real job.
• 20:27
  And I can do that.
• 20:30
  and support my family and also be there each weekend for my family as well.
• 20:36
  So she was really supportive of the decision I made and I think she's pretty happy with it.
• 20:42
  You used the word mindset before.
• 20:44
  I'm not a religious person, right?
• 20:46
  But you clearly are at peace with this.
• 20:48
  This is a good thing.
• 20:49
  You're really comfortable with it.
• 20:51
  I can sense that in you, mate.
• 20:51
  Very, very, very comfortable.
• 20:55
  You know, I think...
• 20:57
  I look back at how it all played out in 2020 and, you know, what I went through, what we went through last year.
• 21:05
  And he's something like, you know, people always say things happen for a reason.
• 21:10
  And last year I'm like, what's the reason for this?
• 21:13
  Like why?
• 21:15
  And now I look back, I'm like, that's the best thing that ever happened to me was, was what happened at the end of 2020.
• 21:20
  Um,
• 21:23
  probably wouldn't be a Bathurst winner right now had that not have happened and wouldn't have a great opportunity outside the sport either.
• 21:33
  So...
• 21:34
  You know, it was character building.
• 21:38
  You know, you sort of realise who's your greatest support out there and how many fans you have and how much support you have within the sport as well.
• 21:50
  So, you know, I think...
• 21:53
  I'm just, like, I'd just be hanging on to it if that hadn't happened because I still wouldn't have had something outside of motorsport to go to.
• 22:02
  And you've ticked the, you know, for now at least, the 1,000 box, haven't you?
• 22:06
  Which is a great and massive thing for your CV.
• 22:09
  Okay, a couple of things.
• 22:10
  Bathurst this year with a young bloke at Penright Racing.
• 22:13
  What's that going to be like?
• 22:15
  Well, he's listening at the moment, so I better be careful.
• 22:17
  Look at the fear at the moment.
• 22:19
  We're looking inside.
• 22:20
  We're at Matt Payne's place at Pukukoe.
• 22:22
  I don't know what the hell those two are up to.
• 22:23
  Reynolds is on the laptop.
• 22:26
  He's got a PlayStation controller on.
• 22:29
  They're like two peas in a pod.
• 22:32
  They've both got the mindset of a 15-year-old.
• 22:35
  He's a good young talent, isn't he?
• 22:36
  What's he like?
• 22:37
  He's great.
• 22:38
  I'm looking forward to teaming up with Matty.
• 22:41
  He's come so far probably in the last 12 months.
• 22:45
  I mean, I think everyone knew he always had the ability.
• 22:49
  He's maturing a lot.
• 22:51
  We saw last year he had great speed, but then, you know, there'd be mistakes.
• 22:59
  But, you know, one thing that Gary always said to me, you can, Gary Rogers I'm referring to, he said you can train someone to slow down,
• 23:11
  but it's very hard to make them speed up.
• 23:14
  And I think he's definitely got that.
• 23:16
  He's fast.
• 23:19
  Yeah, he's just, you know, as he matures, he's going to get better and better.
• 23:23
  And, you know, Bath, this is a long race, and it's one race that, you know, it's hard for the rookies.
• 23:31
  But he's going to be there in his Super 2 car.
• 23:33
  He's going to be doing a hell of a lot of laps there.
• 23:36
  But, yeah, I think...
• 23:37
  I'm hoping that, you know, him having someone with experience around there, myself, you know, I know what you go through as a young guy around there and the head games that you fight with yourself, within yourself, you've just got to remain calm and enjoy it and not take any crazy risks.
• 23:58
  And that's the hard part for the young guys.
• 24:01
  So, yeah, I think I'll be a bit of a calming influence for him and...
• 24:05
  Yeah, hopefully.
• 24:06
  I think we'll be strong together.
• 24:09
  You may not be able to talk about the detail here, so if you can't, that's totally fine.
• 24:13
  It sounds as though Ryan said, OK, no problem, Ryan Walkinshaw, I'm talking here, you can go off and do the Grove thing.
• 24:19
  That's a great opportunity to go and do full-time driving again, but we want you back when...
• 24:25
  That's over.
• 24:26
  Would you go back and do endurance races with them?
• 24:28
  It sounds like that's, you know... Would I go back?
• 24:31
  Yeah, of course you would.
• 24:32
  Absolutely.
• 24:33
  Why wouldn't I?
• 24:34
  Why wouldn't you?
• 24:35
  Exactly.
• 24:36
  I had a two-year deal with Wolkinshaws for endurance driving and they were great to release me from that, to come and do the Grove racing thing.
• 24:47
  Yeah, look, I can't speak about what's going on for next year at this stage, but...
• 24:54
  You know, I feel, you know, I'm confident that I'll be in something pretty decent next year.
• 25:02
  So, yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
• 25:04
  But, yeah, I think that'll all pan out in the next four weeks or so.
• 25:07
  And, you know, it's...
• 25:11
  one of the reasons why I wanted to announce so early about my plans for next year was so I can enjoy the last four rounds of the year and say goodbye.
• 25:22
  You know, there's a lot of people in the sport that – great drivers who have exited the sport without being able to say goodbye.
• 25:28
  You know, GT is one of them.
• 25:31
  He went into the break.
• 25:32
  thinking he was coming back the following year and, you know, and his time came to an end.
• 25:37
  So I think, you know, that's unfair for some, you know, for a lot of drivers.
• 25:41
  And, you know, I just thought that it's pretty cool to be able to actually say, see you later, thanks, and enjoy the last four rounds.
• 25:52
  So that's where, you know, my focus is on getting the best results for the rest of the year and, you know,
• 25:58
  Whatever happens for Enduros happens over the next four weeks, but I don't have to worry too much about it, I don't think.
• 26:04
  You've got the next chapter organised.
• 26:06
  It's been your life for effectively 20 years.
• 26:10
  Going to be hard to stop going full-time, going to rounds, going to the circus, the family that is supercars on a regular basis?
• 26:19
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 26:21
  You know, it becomes like a family.
• 26:23
  The community, like we all know each other.
• 26:26
  There's mechanics that have been around, you know, since I started and they're spread across every team in the paddock.
• 26:36
  In every team in the category, I know someone that I've worked with and I think that's pretty cool.
• 26:42
  So I'm going to miss that, yeah, for sure.
• 26:44
  But what I really want to do is get back to...
• 26:48
  You know, at some points in the game when you don't feel you've got the right opportunities, it becomes a bit of a job and you don't want that.
• 26:56
  Like, it's...
• 26:57
  It shouldn't be a grind.
• 26:58
  It's the dream, you know.
• 26:59
  It's what we... What I always dreamed of doing is racing in supercars and...
• 27:04
  you get to that point where it becomes a job.
• 27:06
  And so I think next year I need a little bit of time just to get away and realise why I love it again.
• 27:15
  You know, if I go out and win this weekend, Pukekohe, I'll love it again.
• 27:23
  I haven't lost my... Like, you know, for the punters at home, I haven't lost my love for the sport.
• 27:28
  It's just...
• 27:30
  We go away to win, and when you're not doing that, it becomes a bit of a grind.
• 27:37
  I think we understand the differentiation.
• 27:40
  That's not misplaced.
• 27:42
  I think you naturally want to win.
• 27:46
  That's how you're programmed, and when you can't do that...
• 27:49
  on a regular basis i guess that that gets hard but it doesn't mean when you slip behind the wheel that you still don't love firing up that supercar it doesn't mean that does it 100 no i mean every time you jump in the car you got this like burning desire to to be the fastest out there to to get polled to get the race win but unfortunately you you can't always do that and you don't always have the opportunity to do it so
• 28:14
  I mean, coming back last year and doing that with Chas at Bathurst was like...
• 28:22
  It was refreshing to me to go up against one of the guys that's one of the best in the category.
• 28:31
  Certainly, in my view, Chas is up there in the top two or three in the category.
• 28:37
  And then to be a close match with him was like, okay, I realise I've still got it, and I want to make sure that I make the most of this opportunity
• 28:48
  And then looking back at the rest of my career, I sort of feel like I've made the most of every opportunity I've had.
• 28:54
  I don't feel like I've ever been in equipment that was capable of winning or getting podiums without actually achieving that.
• 29:04
  So, yeah, I'm satisfied.
• 29:08
  But, yeah, I think once I sit back and just I'm away for it for a little bit,
• 29:13
  I reckon I'll be ringing my brother and saying, hey, can you roll out that TA2 car?
• 29:19
  Let's go for a test day.
• 29:20
  Let's do a test day.
• 29:22
  Have you driven one of those things yet?
• 29:23
  I have, yeah.
• 29:23
  What did you think?
• 29:25
  Well, like I said, my brother's got one, so I did a couple of test days with him last year and had so much fun.
• 29:31
  So much fun.
• 29:31
  Man, they...
• 29:33
  They sort of – and people grab quotes from us about this so that they use it against supercars and stuff like that.
• 29:40
  Listen to it in full.
• 29:41
  Listen to it in full, folks.
• 29:44
  Yeah, but it's what drivers want.
• 29:47
  What I love to drive is a car that slides.
• 29:49
  The crowd want to see that too.
• 29:51
  They want to see something that slides, hard to drive, doesn't suffer from aero wash from the car in front, so you can race close.
• 30:02
  Really, the direction, and here this journos, the direction that the Gen 3 is going.
• 30:08
  And that's what we want.
• 30:09
  So, yeah, that's why I enjoy it so much.
• 30:12
  And I might do it.
• 30:13
  Yeah, maybe I'll do a race or two in that next year.
• 30:16
  Good stuff.
• 30:16
  I don't know.
• 30:17
  Okay, watch this space.
• 30:18
  Hey, I want to rewind the clock to Bathurst because I have a very vivid recollection in my mind of walking into the Walkinshaw Garage on a couple of occasions and you seated by Ryan there and...
• 30:29
  You know, we focused on that tyre issue at one point during the race, and, you know, that's the media kind of role.
• 30:35
  For that last 20 laps or so, what were you like, knowing, shit, I might finally, finally do this?
• 30:43
  I had people texting me saying, oh, you guys have got this in the bag.
• 30:46
  I'm like, shut up.
• 30:47
  As it's happening.
• 30:48
  As it's happening.
• 30:49
  Yeah, as it's happening.
• 30:51
  And I could see at some points I'm reading my text.
• 30:53
  I look up at the telly and the camera's actually on me and I'm thinking, I didn't know what to think.
• 31:00
  I just didn't want to.
• 31:02
  Like, I've been there too many times where you think, hey, this is looking good.
• 31:08
  We're on here.
• 31:08
  So you don't let yourself do that.
• 31:10
  No, no, I couldn't do it.
• 31:11
  And to be honest, for me and looking back, the best thing, like the most rewarding thing was that we had that tyre failure and we bounced back from it.
• 31:26
  That was the cool thing because, yes, we had a great car.
• 31:28
  Yes, we started on pole.
• 31:29
  Yes.
• 31:30
  Yes, we were leading the race for quite some time.
• 31:35
  But then that happened and it was like, far out.
• 31:39
  We've got the car to bounce back, but this is a challenge now.
• 31:42
  And it was actually exciting because it was like, we can still win this.
• 31:49
  And we had to then take some risks with passes and our driving.
• 31:57
  We had to push hard.
• 31:59
  to get back to where we wanted to be, which was to lead the race, obviously.
• 32:03
  So, yeah, those last few laps was like, you know, Shane playing games at one point, trying to back Chas up, which worked, but Chas bounced back from it.
• 32:17
  Like, it was...
• 32:18
  Shane's a bit of a...
• 32:20
  He's a sneaky racer sometimes.
• 32:21
  He's a very smart racer, but he can be very sneaky and sometimes it can screw people over.
• 32:28
  And I just thought, please, just like... All I was thinking is, as long as we don't end up in a crash here, Chas will fight back and we've got the car speed to win.
• 32:40
  So, yeah, eventually, you know, pit stops rolled around.
• 32:43
  We got back to the front and then we were able to...
• 32:48
  manage the gap, I suppose.
• 32:52
  Shane was pushing hard.
• 32:54
  I was just praying that we didn't have another tyre failure.
• 32:57
  And I just didn't relax up until...
• 33:00
  I thought when he came out of, like all the team were up and about when he came out of Forest Elbow, and I thought, can still have a tyre failure down Conrod here.
• 33:11
  You were thinking that.
• 33:12
  Honestly, I just thought I never, ever, I get ahead of myself sometimes and I thought, I'm not getting ahead of myself here.
• 33:21
  And I waited until he was in the chase and then I thought, we got it.
• 33:25
  We've won.
• 33:25
  And, yeah, ran over to the fence and celebrated really hard.
• 33:30
  How'd that feel?
• 33:31
  Oh, incredible.
• 33:32
  Incredible.
• 33:34
  Like, at the time, I think I was that stressed and had that much adrenaline that it hadn't sunk in yet.
• 33:40
  Like, it was quite strange.
• 33:43
  And I reckon I get more emotional about it now than what I did at the time.
• 33:47
  It was like, we'd just won Bathurst, and it just wasn't registering in my head what...
• 33:56
  that we'd actually done it.
• 33:58
  Because, you know, it was my, was it my 18th attempt or something?
• 34:02
  Or 7th, 18th, I think?
• 34:04
  That sounds right.
• 34:04
  Yeah.
• 34:06
  And I've been on the podium there.
• 34:08
  I've led the race for, you know, two-thirds of the race.
• 34:12
  Unbelievable fights with Murph just to get to podium at one point.
• 34:15
  Yeah, so there's been moments where I've thought, geez, that could have been our year.
• 34:20
  And then to finally get one was just incredible.
• 34:25
  And then...
• 34:26
  Yeah, hanging over the pit fence, the pit wall was really cool.
• 34:29
  And every time I look at that photo, the emotions come back to me.
• 34:34
  And, yeah, so – but now to look back and go, I've actually got that on the CV, like that's mega, you know.
• 34:45
  And then to think, like if I was thinking about how my kids would feel about it in 20 years' time to go, Dad won Bathurst –
• 34:55
  That's, yeah, that cuts me deep too.
• 34:59
  Does it?
• 35:00
  Did it change your world?
• 35:01
  Like, you know, school drop-offs or there he is, he's a Baptist winner.
• 35:04
  Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.
• 35:07
  It's what you, you know, you get that, when people look at your career, they look at the highest moments and, you know, some people don't, some people win a lot of races.
• 35:19
  but they don't win Bathurst or, you know, they might win a championship, but some people still don't get to win Bathurst.
• 35:26
  And you sort of get, I think, a bit of a label when you've won Bathurst that...
• 35:32
  hey, that's the guy that won Bathurst last year.
• 35:35
  And people probably wouldn't say that so much about, hey, that's the guy that won in Queensland Raceway a couple of weeks ago or wherever else, or even, you know, that's the guy that won the championship.
• 35:50
  It doesn't have that effect on people because whether you're a motor racing fanatic or not,
• 35:57
  people still know the Bathurst 1000.
• 35:59
  So it's the grand final and we've won it.
• 36:03
  You've been driver's driver and your respect for a long time among your constituents is incredible.
• 36:11
  What was some of the reaction from the people that you go to war with every couple of weeks and things like that, that I would imagine there's been a lot of love for the fact that you were finally able to do that.
• 36:22
  Yeah, no, it was amazing.
• 36:25
  I genuinely felt like people were happy for me.
• 36:28
  They were.
• 36:29
  You know, like we're always happy for the winner and, you know, think that whoever wins it is deserving of it.
• 36:36
  But, yeah, it was genuinely like the...
• 36:39
  It just felt very genuine from the other drivers that came over and congratulated me, other teams, team owners, all the rest of it.
• 36:49
  That was very cool.
• 36:50
  So...
• 36:53
  Yeah, I've got a lot of, you know, we all have a lot of respect for each other out there on the track.
• 36:58
  Probably even more for each other off the track.
• 37:02
  Definitely more.
• 37:03
  But, you know, someone said to me, are you sick of people saying that you're a nice guy?
• 37:10
  I'm like, well, you know what, it pisses me off in a way because...
• 37:15
  I don't think that the other drivers think that about me on track.
• 37:21
  I don't give them an inch.
• 37:25
  But I take pride in that label outside of the race car.
• 37:30
  As you should.
• 37:31
  Yeah.
• 37:31
  As you should.
• 37:32
  Final on this Bathurst subject, because we could unpack it for ages here.
• 37:37
  How wounded were you?
• 37:38
  What were the celebrations like?
• 37:40
  Ryan does enjoy a good celebration.
• 37:43
  What was that like?
• 37:45
  Oh, man.
• 37:47
  I couldn't get to a beer quick enough.
• 37:49
  Seriously.
• 37:50
  I'm like, is there beer in this trophy?
• 37:52
  As soon as we got it.
• 37:54
  So, but also I'd heard what else has gone into that trophy, so I thought I probably shouldn't drink out of that.
• 38:02
  But as soon as we got back to the, we went up to this lodge, which is not far from the track where all the Walkinshaw crew were already hard on the gas when Chas and I got back.
• 38:14
  And, man, we downed some beers so quick.
• 38:17
  And we just, like, it was the biggest celebration.
• 38:21
  It was so cool.
• 38:21
  And then that went on through the night.
• 38:26
  And then I think it's pretty – I think it's – I don't know.
• 38:30
  You sort of feel like you deserve a sleep in in the morning, but you don't get it.
• 38:35
  Meteor and you're into it.
• 38:36
  They want to torture you the next day.
• 38:38
  They know that you're partying hard, but they want to torture you.
• 38:41
  So you get up and you've got a sunrise interview at 6.30 and you've got your jumper on backwards.
• 38:46
  LAUGHTER
• 38:48
  You're wiping a bit of vomit off your face and then you're talking to Koshi on the body.
• 38:53
  Oh, g'day, Lee.
• 38:56
  Oh, Jesus.
• 38:59
  So it was painful.
• 39:01
  But I was lucky because I probably had my last drink about half an hour before.
• 39:05
  So I was lucky because the hangover hadn't actually set in just yet.
• 39:09
  I'm lying about the vomit on the face.
• 39:11
  I didn't have that until later in the day.
• 39:13
  But, yeah, so – but you know what?
• 39:16
  Like, the torture was worth it because you're just like –
• 39:20
  that actually happened yesterday.
• 39:21
  And I don't really care that I feel like absolute crap right now.
• 39:26
  And then, you know, you roll into another interview and then by about midday you're like, oh, God.
• 39:31
  But honestly, I could have lived with a hangover for three months after that and not cared.
• 39:38
  um you know to get back i think i actually i probably shouldn't say that on air but i got back that night back to melbourne um i did get some sleep before i left and um and then had the long drive home and just reflected on the way home and then got back to alana and the kids and yeah that was like that was cool was it yeah what'd they say did they see because when they're younger
• 40:04
  kind of know a bit about what Dad does, but it maybe doesn't fully register the significance of Bathurst or whatever.
• 40:08
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 40:09
  I think definitely, you know, they... Well, they've been around... You know, Riley's nearly six, and Ava's been around for a good part of my career.
• 40:18
  She was born in 2012 when I went to Stone Brothers.
• 40:21
  And so she's seen the highs and lows of motorsport, and, you know, she certainly knows how much I'll put into it.
• 40:29
  What'd she say?
• 40:31
  So I think the...
• 40:33
  Like she was screaming and it was just, it was so cool to see that it meant something to them as well.
• 40:39
  And I think the fact that all their friends knew about it as well was like, wow, you know, they probably thought, oh, this is actually pretty big.
• 40:48
  Oh, that's what he does.
• 40:49
  Yeah, so people watch it.
• 40:55
  Yeah, so that was a proud moment, you know, to see that my kids were actually proud of me.
• 41:11
  Lee's supercars journey recently ticked over 500 races.
• 41:15
  He went from 1 to 500 and had a beautiful surprise to celebrate the milestone.
• 41:20
  Please stick around to hear Lee speak about his present and some of the fun stories from those early years.
• 41:26
  He drives into a fence.
• 41:29
  In that difficult period, with a little bit of help from Betty Klemenko, which I think is tremendous, and I guess stitching it together yourself, you go off and play in a space that I'm working in, in TCR.
• 41:40
  You got to drive an Alfa Romeo.
• 41:42
  How was that whole experience, something 180 of a supercar?
• 41:45
  How did you find that?
• 41:45
  Yeah, yeah.
• 41:46
  Yeah, it was very, very different.
• 41:50
  And yes, Betty Klemenko helped me out a lot, which was incredible.
• 41:57
  I certainly didn't expect that.
• 41:58
  But the first person I got on the phone once the announcement came about...
• 42:04
  my contract being void for 2021 was Betty.
• 42:10
  And she said, hey, I want to help you out for next year financially with TCR.
• 42:15
  And I just thought, wow, that's pretty cool.
• 42:20
  And that's one thing I pride myself.
• 42:22
  myself on in this sport is never burning bridges you know um so for her to step up and say that um i was yeah stoked so i uh you know at that stage i just wanted to race anything and um and and i had ash seward calling me and he's a workhorse workhorse so
• 42:44
  Ash rang me and said, mate, let's just get this going.
• 42:47
  Like, we didn't have the full budget.
• 42:49
  And, you know, credit to him, he just said, mate, let's just get it underway and we'll work it out on the way.
• 42:57
  And so we rolled up to the first round.
• 42:59
  We had a test day before that and I thought...
• 43:03
  Far out.
• 43:04
  What have I got myself into here?
• 43:07
  This is different.
• 43:08
  Like, the front-wheel drive is just...
• 43:10
  It's so different, you know.
• 43:12
  You've got to...
• 43:13
  It's a completely different...
• 43:16
  I would say skill set, but technique.
• 43:20
  You know, they oversteer an entry when you're on the brake and then you've sort of got to overlap brake with throttle on turning to tame the rear...
• 43:32
  And then you have to be able to rotate the car on throttle when it's wanting to understeer because you're on the gas.
• 43:40
  It's just so backwards in the way that you do it.
• 43:44
  It's basically, best thing to describe it, it's like driving a supercar backwards in reverse.
• 43:50
  Right.
• 43:50
  Really?
• 43:51
  It's like driving in reverse.
• 43:52
  So if you imagine driving a super car or any road car, any rear wheel road car, into a corner, backwards, get on the brake, turn the wheel, and the thing steers so hard, you know?
• 44:05
  It felt like that.
• 44:06
  It felt like a shopping trolley in the rear.
• 44:08
  Yeah.
• 44:09
  But it was so cool to be able to learn a new craft.
• 44:12
  And then we rolled out at Tassie and stuck it on, was it pole?
• 44:17
  I think it was pole, yeah, for the first one.
• 44:20
  And then won a race, finished up second in two others, but did actually win one of them, but got a penalty for, I think they said I creeped on the start.
• 44:29
  So that was cool to start the campaign that way.
• 44:33
  And I thought, ah, this isn't so bad.
• 44:36
  And then we had a blank canvas on the car because we just had Betty supporting us.
• 44:42
  And then I had ACT Fence Hire come in on board.
• 44:47
  You know, he's a great guy, Angelo.
• 44:51
  He came on board and helped me out as well.
• 44:54
  And then we rolled into the second round.
• 44:56
  We had Phillip Island and we had some weight ballast put into the car and...
• 45:00
  That's the thing that I got a bit frustrated about that side of it was the BOP side.
• 45:09
  Yeah, and then we had a few issues with reliability in the car for the rest of the year, which was a bit of a shame.
• 45:18
  But I did enjoy it.
• 45:20
  I enjoyed driving that car.
• 45:22
  And I actually have said plenty of times that I felt like it did improve
• 45:27
  my style for the supercar in some way because I never liked a loose car on entry.
• 45:34
  But then, you know, rolling back in, maybe it was what helped drive Chaz's car because he does like a car that's very pointy on entry and it was no dramas, you know.
• 45:43
  I didn't even think about it.
• 45:44
  So, um, maybe that contributed.
• 45:47
  But yeah, I had a lot of fun.
• 45:49
  Um, you know, it was, it was very different to supercar that whole year.
• 45:53
  All I wanted to do was be in a supercar.
• 45:55
  Um,
• 45:57
  But, yeah, good fun, good category.
• 45:59
  While we're reminiscing a little here, can we reminisce about the Smith's Trucks Commodore?
• 46:04
  Because, for me, that sort of evokes memories of working on the trackside program and you were reunited with that car very recently.
• 46:12
  What kind of... What comes back when you think of that machine?
• 46:17
  So, I... Well, that actual car I drove with Philips Skyfleet.
• 46:24
  And that was crazy that...
• 46:27
  On my 500th race, we were racing at the same track as I did my first race in supercars.
• 46:33
  And I thought, that's just, yeah, it's really fitting.
• 46:37
  And what the Groves did to get that car there and to organise all that, that was really cool and appreciated it so much.
• 46:48
  Not many people get to stand beside the car with the same livery and that looks in the exact same condition as what it did back then.
• 46:57
  you know 18 years later or 19 maybe I don't know how many years it is so long nearly two decades decades later standing beside the same car that you raced your first race with the next year car that you're racing your 500th with but what comes to mind I remember in that first race down the back straight I don't think I'd jumped in the car yet but we were in the race sand down 500 and
• 47:23
  Phillips Skyfleet hit the pit lane limiter, I think, halfway down the back straight.
• 47:30
  Didn't realise it.
• 47:31
  And so we had an engine, like a big flame out in the airbox, which developed into a fire.
• 47:38
  And then he pulled off at the second last corner and the thing was a smoking wreck.
• 47:43
  Yeah.
• 47:44
  So, yeah, that was my first memory of it.
• 47:46
  But my other memory, and these all sound like really bad memories, but my first round in development series was at Wakefield Park.
• 47:59
  and it was raining, and I finished up sixth in my first race, and I thought, hey, that's pretty cool.
• 48:05
  And then we went off to Adelaide.
• 48:08
  Alan Gurr was my teammate.
• 48:10
  We were both in Smith's Trucks cars, and Gurry put it in the fence at turn eight.
• 48:15
  It must have been on about lap three.
• 48:17
  And then lap four, I put it in the fence at turn eight as well, or after a safety car, and...
• 48:25
  And my boss, Rob Smith, thought he was watching a replay.
• 48:29
  Oh, no.
• 48:31
  So, yeah.
• 48:32
  Not one, but two.
• 48:33
  Yeah.
• 48:33
  A bit like how people thought the second plane for 9-11 was a replay, but probably not quite as extreme as that.
• 48:42
  So...
• 48:43
  Yeah, that was my memory.
• 48:46
  But to be honest, in some ways it really hurt Alan's career that weekend.
• 48:52
  But in another way for me it helped mine because Alan stopped racing and a lot of the good stuff that was on his car then came onto my car because my car wasn't as bad as his.
• 49:03
  He basically wrote his off.
• 49:06
  So then Paul Morris was helping Gurrie out during that phase and he sort of came across and started helping me a fair bit at that point as well.
• 49:16
  And so, yeah, Paul was a massive help to me as well and that was really, like, that was one of the points where I think I can identify as a bit of a point in my career that,
• 49:31
  gave me a break.
• 49:32
  Did it?
• 49:33
  In what way?
• 49:34
  Because Paul was helpful and it opened doors and things?
• 49:37
  Yeah, well, I think the focus switched from Alan to me.
• 49:42
  And Alan was always Paul's protege.
• 49:46
  And...
• 49:49
  Yeah, so it was now the focus was completely on me and Paul put me in his car, tested me in his car, in his supercar, helped me out a lot, put me in at Norwell as a driving instructor and really got behind me and pushed me...
• 50:10
  pushed Robert Smith to keep upgrading the car and then trying to help me find opportunities in the sport as well and really just with advice.
• 50:22
  You know, Paul is a guy that tells it how it is, as we know, and, you know, he doesn't like people that don't put in effort, so he could see...
• 50:32
  you know, that I was prepared to do everything I could to make it.
• 50:36
  And so he just suggested a few things.
• 50:38
  Also, Ryan McLeod was massive in that phase as well.
• 50:43
  Even up to this point, he's been great advice for me and pushed my barrel pretty hard.
• 50:49
  He spoke to Gary Rogers, got him to sort of try and follow my progression.
• 50:55
  And at Queensland Raceway, I remember this is another turning moment.
• 51:00
  I qualified second on the grid next to Dean Canto at QR, and I was looking for an endurance drive for Bathurst that year with someone.
• 51:12
  And luckily, you know, Ryan had already been in contact with Gary, so Gary was watching, and he called me over after that quality session, and he said, hey, we want you to drive for us for Bathurst.
• 51:22
  Unreal.
• 51:22
  So we did the deal basically on a handshake deal in the truck in about two minutes.
• 51:28
  Yeah.
• 51:29
  I wasn't going to say no.
• 51:30
  No, yeah.
• 51:32
  And I ended up driving with Philip Skyfleet, funny enough, in my first Bathurst with Gary.
• 51:38
  You are renowned among your mates as being handshakes, aren't you?
• 51:42
  Yeah, yeah.
• 51:42
  You do.
• 51:42
  Yeah, I had it on my helmet at one point.
• 51:44
  I had it as a bit of an artistic flair on the helmet.
• 51:48
  But there's like a...
• 51:50
  I don't know whether it was Ant-Man at the time doing my helmet and he had like two hands shaking each other and one of the hands had fingers crossed.
• 52:04
  So him.
• 52:04
  So, yeah, I'm hoping he meant it was the other party.
• 52:09
  But, yeah, I've always, yeah, Perkins and Moff and those guys, Caruso, they always give me crap about being Handshake Holdsworth because I...
• 52:20
  I think that's probably why I got on so well with Gary Rogers because he's... That's how he does things, largely.
• 52:25
  Yeah, it's that old school nature.
• 52:28
  The way that I've grown up, it's all, you know, everything's based on your word and you're only as good as your word and all that sort of stuff.
• 52:35
  So if I shake hands with someone and we come to an agreement, that's as good as a contract done in my eyes.
• 52:42
  But unfortunately...
• 52:44
  you know, it becomes too easy for people to get out of contracts when it's only, you know, when there's nothing down on paper.
• 52:50
  Great reflection of your character, though, mate, in the corporate landscape in which we live, the litigious, whatever you want to call it, landscape that you have stuck to largely that policy with a number of things, I think, tremendous.
• 53:01
  Just come back one step if we can.
• 53:03
  You're talking about people like Ryan McLeod, Paul Morrison.
• 53:06
  and what went down with gurry there and so on i just want to underscore your commitment to this if we can too you told a great story to noons about emailing a lot of teams telling them hey i'm here i i just want to come and learn i i'll be on the crew whatever it might be didn't you you really yeah yeah and ryan was the guy that responded i think wasn't he so he was he was
• 53:34
  That's the end of part one of my podcast with driver's driver, Lee Holdsworth.
• 53:39
  Don't think for a moment that his likeable nature makes him a walkover when it comes to battles on track.
• 53:46
  When that helmet goes on, he is tough.
• 53:48
  And that's because of the road that he has walked to get here.
• 53:52
  We continue on that theme and much more in part two, which is all loaded up and ready for you to enjoy in our Rusty's Garage Library right now.
• 54:01
  You can hit the go button.
• 54:03
  There is lessons for young racers in there about rolling your sleeves up, immersing yourself and doing everything you can, the hard yards to learn.