Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / Exploring The Boss: Bruce Springsteen Album-by-Album [Episode 221]

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Exploring The Boss: Bruce Springsteen Album-by-Album [Episode 221] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

0:00
Speaker 1: We're totally booked rock and Roll. I mean, I'll leave
0:04
Speaker 1: you to you're reading.
0:05
Speaker 2: Little Hands says it's time to rock and roll.
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Speaker 3: Roll are totally booked.
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Speaker 4: Welcome back to Booked on Rock, the podcast for those
0:18
Speaker 4: about to read and rock. Find every episode of Book
0:21
Speaker 4: Down Rock in both audio and video at the website
0:24
Speaker 4: bookdown rock dot com, where you can also find exclusive
0:26
Speaker 4: video segments from each episode, the latest rock book releases,
0:30
Speaker 4: and a whole lot more. Also check out the Bookdown
0:32
Speaker 4: Rock YouTube channel at bookdown Rock. Kenneth Wollmack and Kenneth L.
0:37
Speaker 4: Campbell are the authors of the new book Bruce Songs
0:40
Speaker 4: The Music of Bruce Springsteen, Album by album, song by song.
0:44
Speaker 4: It's an in depth exploration of Bruce Springsteen's musical legacy,
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Speaker 4: covering his entire discography from Greetings from Asbury Park, New
0:51
Speaker 4: Jersey to Only the Strong Survive. This unique book combines
0:55
Speaker 4: historical context, literary analysis, and meticulous research, detailed analysis of
1:01
Speaker 4: each album, essays on their historical significance, and a chronological
1:05
Speaker 4: examination of every studio song to gain insight into Springsteen's
1:09
Speaker 4: creative process. A playlist of Bruce Springsteen can be found
1:13
Speaker 4: on the show notes page. Welcome to the podcast, guys.
1:17
Speaker 1: Thanks, thank you so much.
1:19
Speaker 4: Kenneth Wollmack. I've had you on before, so it's great
1:22
Speaker 4: to see you again. Kenneth Campbell, it's great to meet you.
1:25
Speaker 4: And quite a book covering every album and every song
1:29
Speaker 4: of Bruce Springsteen. Quite an undertaking. First, how did you
1:32
Speaker 4: both team up to write the book and can you
1:35
Speaker 4: talk about the process of putting this book together. There
1:39
Speaker 4: are a few excellent Beatles books that are important to
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Speaker 4: mention here right.
1:44
Speaker 1: Well, we both teach at Mammoth University. We teach courses
1:49
Speaker 1: on Bruce Springsteen in different parts of the university. Ken
1:53
Speaker 1: teaches in the Department of History. I teach in the
1:57
Speaker 1: music department, and so there was a natural kind of
2:02
Speaker 1: affinity for the subject. But we're both longtime writers about
2:07
Speaker 1: the Beatles, and it was pretty clear to us that
2:10
Speaker 1: some of the steps that the world of Bruce Springsteen's
2:13
Speaker 1: studies need mirror where the Beatles were, say in the
2:16
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, to be fair, and some of those very
2:20
Speaker 1: important books that were published about the Beatles back in
2:22
Speaker 1: those days involved something like this Bruce Song's book. In fact,
2:26
Speaker 1: there's a wonderful book called Beatles Songs by a fellow
2:31
Speaker 1: named Dowdling. It's an excellent book, still is, and we
2:35
Speaker 1: are paying homage to him in this work. So that's
2:39
Speaker 1: how we got together, right, Ken, Right.
2:42
Speaker 2: We have these mutual interests. And when Ken came to
2:47
Speaker 2: Monmouth some not too many years ago, nine years, he's
2:52
Speaker 2: telling me and I will never forget our first conversation.
2:58
Speaker 2: And we've had lunch and we talked music and Beatles
3:04
Speaker 2: and other stuff, and and we kind of I don't
3:06
Speaker 2: know if you remember this, Ken, but we said, then
3:08
Speaker 2: we've got to do a book together sometime. And We've
3:12
Speaker 2: collaborated on a number of projects. I've contributed a number
3:15
Speaker 2: of things to stuff that Ken has edited. And and
3:19
Speaker 2: when Ken actually had the idea to do something modeled
3:23
Speaker 2: off of Dowdling's book, and we talked about it, and
3:27
Speaker 2: I was really excited about it and and just loved
3:31
Speaker 2: working on it. It really gave us a chance to build
3:33
Speaker 2: on what we've been doing in the classroom.
3:35
Speaker 4: In the process of putting this together, because there's quite
3:37
Speaker 4: a bit of information here. You got reviews going back
3:40
Speaker 4: to the time I think when the albums came out.
3:43
Speaker 4: A lot that went into this how long did it
3:45
Speaker 4: take and what was that process like for you?
3:47
Speaker 1: Well, it's taken a few years, as you might imagine.
3:50
Speaker 1: You know, it helps that we're both immersed in the
3:54
Speaker 1: subject because you know, we're always preparing for the next
3:57
Speaker 1: time we teach Bruce. I'm teaching Bruce in the Bring,
4:00
Speaker 1: so I'm always thinking about that. I know Ken has
4:04
Speaker 1: more than one for a that he carries out. We
4:07
Speaker 1: also had a student who received a grant through the university,
4:11
Speaker 1: Carli Meiglely REESI. She works for the Bruce Beingseen Archives
4:14
Speaker 1: and Center for American Music on campus, so she was
4:16
Speaker 1: able to use those incredible resources to help ferret out
4:21
Speaker 1: even a few more nuggets that we didn't have before.
4:25
Speaker 1: But you know, a project like this, as much research
4:28
Speaker 1: as went into it, and there was quite a bit,
4:30
Speaker 1: it's simply a sheer amount of writing. Because Bruce, right,
4:34
Speaker 1: Ken has so many songs at this point.
4:37
Speaker 2: It was really amazing. And I think that it would
4:40
Speaker 2: have been really difficult for one person to do what
4:44
Speaker 2: Ken and I have done right. And I think that
4:51
Speaker 2: the fact that readers of this book are going to
4:53
Speaker 2: get both of our expertise and both of our perspectives
4:59
Speaker 2: in every every album, they're going to get an introductory
5:03
Speaker 2: essay by Ken Womack, a historical context essay by me
5:10
Speaker 2: and uh and then in terms of album and and
5:14
Speaker 2: song analyses, our song analyses, we we we divided them up,
5:20
Speaker 2: but uh, we divided them up in a way that, uh,
5:27
Speaker 2: I think people who read the book will probably not
5:30
Speaker 2: be able to tell who wrote which, you know, with
5:34
Speaker 2: with the songs we we we share. We you know,
5:38
Speaker 2: we were constantly talking and and and sharing our song
5:42
Speaker 2: analyses with one another. And I know I've been influenced
5:46
Speaker 2: by by Ken a lot. So that was that. That
5:51
Speaker 2: was an interesting Uh part of the process was was
5:54
Speaker 2: sitting down and deciding who was going to do which
5:56
Speaker 2: songs and which albums, and uh, I think it turned
6:01
Speaker 2: out good.
6:02
Speaker 4: Let's go back now, let's go through the catalog here.
6:05
Speaker 4: Let's go back to the beginning. And before Bruce became
6:08
Speaker 4: a household name with the Born to Run album, there
6:11
Speaker 4: were two studio albums, Greetings from Asbury Park, New Jersey
6:15
Speaker 4: and the Wildly Innocent The EA Street Shuffle, which were
6:17
Speaker 4: both released in nineteen seventy three and is noted in
6:19
Speaker 4: the book. Heading into that first album, Bruce was being
6:22
Speaker 4: touted as the second incarnation of Bob Dylan, but he
6:26
Speaker 4: had also been in bands like Steel Mill and the
6:29
Speaker 4: Bruce Springsteen Band, both with a proclivity for electric guitar rock.
6:33
Speaker 4: So the question was which Springsteen would win out, the
6:38
Speaker 4: folks or the metal head and I feel like we
6:40
Speaker 4: get both on that first album. Actually his lyrical phrasing
6:44
Speaker 4: is Dylan asked, but the music is more steel Mill.
6:47
Speaker 4: I don't know if you guys agree with that. What
6:49
Speaker 4: are your thoughts on the debut album.
6:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about it. You know,
6:53
Speaker 1: Bruce was here on the shore just last weekend and
6:56
Speaker 1: he played He Actually I thought about our book can
7:00
Speaker 1: because the first thing he said when he stepped on
7:02
Speaker 1: stage on the beach there in Asbury was greeting's Asbury Park,
7:08
Speaker 1: and immediately, you know, began playing you know songs. I
7:14
Speaker 1: played Lonesome Day, but then he played several songs from
7:17
Speaker 1: that first album, and in my mind, I guess ultimately
7:24
Speaker 1: Bruce the band, the guitar band guy, wins out because
7:30
Speaker 1: the standout cuts are certainly blinded by the light. And
7:33
Speaker 1: maybe even for me even more so is.
7:39
Speaker 4: You know, gosh, the you know.
7:42
Speaker 1: The the bit about Greasy Lake right the song where
7:46
Speaker 1: he's you know what a wonderful dark bluesy rock song.
7:52
Speaker 1: That is why am I blanking on the title, Ken,
7:54
Speaker 1: bail me.
7:55
Speaker 2: Out Spirit in the Night?
7:57
Speaker 1: Thank you Spirit in the Night?
7:58
Speaker 3: Wow?
7:59
Speaker 1: You know us with the incredible Sacks work by Clarence
8:03
Speaker 1: et cetera. You know, to me that kind of puts
8:06
Speaker 1: the noses him into the lead with with Bruce the rocker.
8:10
Speaker 1: But Ken may see things differently. In fact, as part
8:14
Speaker 1: of our collaboration, Ken is more of the Dylan guy
8:16
Speaker 1: by a mile than this Ken.
8:19
Speaker 2: That's true, And I have always been I love music,
8:25
Speaker 2: but I would admit to being more of a lyric
8:29
Speaker 2: person than a music person. And and and I know Ken,
8:35
Speaker 2: who also teaches literature and English courses. I would never
8:39
Speaker 2: say that he's not a lyric person, but I think
8:42
Speaker 2: that he pays maybe a little bit more attention to
8:45
Speaker 2: the music than I do. But we but it's it's
8:49
Speaker 2: a balance, and I think that we both regard them
8:51
Speaker 2: as important. But yeah, no, up to me, I don't
8:55
Speaker 2: disagree with it being a kind of hybrid of the
8:59
Speaker 2: singer song and the and the rocker. And I think
9:03
Speaker 2: that that applies to Bruce's career as a whole. But
9:08
Speaker 2: I do think that what stands out to me on
9:11
Speaker 2: on the album are the lyrics of a song like
9:17
Speaker 2: for You. That is what kind of blew me away
9:22
Speaker 2: and still does about the album, and it does. It
9:27
Speaker 2: does rock and and the two songs that he went
9:32
Speaker 2: back and wrote so that they would have potential hit singles,
9:36
Speaker 2: Blinded by the Light and Speared in the Night are
9:39
Speaker 2: both are both great songs. But for me, it's some
9:43
Speaker 2: of the other songs like for You, that really make
9:45
Speaker 2: it a deep and worthwhile album. Growing up, Yeah, definitely, that.
9:53
Speaker 1: Was again another one he played this weekend. It was
9:56
Speaker 1: just a real feast.
9:57
Speaker 3: Yeah.
9:58
Speaker 4: First time I ever heard that song was from The
9:59
Speaker 4: Lives seventy five to eighty five. I went backwards. That was,
10:04
Speaker 4: you know, Born in the USA. I had first, and
10:06
Speaker 4: then my brother in law had the box set, the
10:08
Speaker 4: vinyl box set of the Live seventy five to eighty five,
10:11
Speaker 4: and so I was hearing these songs live first and
10:14
Speaker 4: then went backwards. So it was interesting to hear those
10:16
Speaker 4: first two albums because it's it's different than what he
10:20
Speaker 4: ends up doing. Obviously, as the years go on and
10:23
Speaker 4: we get to born to Run, but some great insight
10:25
Speaker 4: into the songs which I love. Blinded by the light.
10:28
Speaker 4: For the song's guitar introduction, Springsteen drew on the rhythm
10:31
Speaker 4: part from the Doobie Brothers listened to the music, I
10:33
Speaker 4: had no idea. I love that stuff.
10:36
Speaker 3: I love the minutia. Yeah.
10:39
Speaker 1: So on the second album, you know, even though it
10:44
Speaker 1: wasn't promoted, as we know by the record company necessarily,
10:48
Speaker 1: that thing was such a leap forward for me. I know,
10:52
Speaker 1: Ken feels the same way. It's such a joy to
10:54
Speaker 1: teach the wild the Innocent East Beat shovel. What a
10:57
Speaker 1: rich album.
10:58
Speaker 2: Oh, it's incredibly rich. You know, incident on fifty seventh
11:03
Speaker 2: Street and uh New York City serenade and I mean,
11:08
Speaker 2: you know Rosealita obviously you know there that. Yeah, another
11:15
Speaker 2: another really really fun album. I think I think that
11:21
Speaker 2: that's where, maybe even more than in Greetings, you see
11:26
Speaker 2: that real rocker side of him, you know, you know,
11:31
Speaker 2: Kitties Back. There's so many different musical influences and genres
11:37
Speaker 2: that go into a song like that, that very very
11:41
Speaker 2: underrated album.
11:42
Speaker 4: I think, well, Bruce was happy with this album much
11:45
Speaker 4: more than the first one. You knowe that in the book,
11:47
Speaker 4: he was much more satisfied with it in terms of
11:49
Speaker 4: the recording and the playing and the arranging of the band,
11:52
Speaker 4: which had yet to include Max Weinberg on drums. Do
11:55
Speaker 4: you agree with Bruce's there is it a better album
11:58
Speaker 4: than the debut.
12:00
Speaker 1: For My Ears? It is? For My Ears? It may
12:03
Speaker 1: just be h. I mean, it's the one I go
12:07
Speaker 1: back to as much as anything. I love that record
12:12
Speaker 1: it is. It sounds as fresh today to me as
12:15
Speaker 1: it does when I first heard it, and the playing
12:17
Speaker 1: is impeccable. I mean it is. He's going it's a
12:21
Speaker 1: it's a he's moving light years ahead of that first record,
12:25
Speaker 1: you know, which was really kind of proving that he
12:27
Speaker 1: could make a record. It's uh, it's just one of
12:31
Speaker 1: those great rock stories that even after the while the
12:34
Speaker 1: Innocent right, they still have to prove themselves right.
12:38
Speaker 2: And even though they come out in fairly close proximity
12:42
Speaker 2: to one another, compared to the gaps between some of
12:45
Speaker 2: his later albums, I agree that there's probably a bigger
12:49
Speaker 2: difference between those two albums than than than obviously they're
12:55
Speaker 2: they're very stark contrasts along the way between. If you
13:00
Speaker 2: throw in Nebraska in the Ghost of Tom Joad and
13:02
Speaker 2: and and you know, and and some of the things
13:04
Speaker 2: that came before and after them. But yeah, I think
13:08
Speaker 2: that there's a gap. I think he's obviously learned some
13:10
Speaker 2: things from doing the first album. I think he's more
13:12
Speaker 2: comfortable being himself on that second album. The first album,
13:19
Speaker 2: you could maybe tell a little bit that he's still
13:23
Speaker 2: trying to define himself and not sure exactly where he
13:27
Speaker 2: wants to fit. There's maybe not as much of a
13:30
Speaker 2: cohesiveness or unity to it. But uh, but with a
13:35
Speaker 2: Wild and in the Innocent he he's he's paving the
13:42
Speaker 2: way I think for Born to run where he he
13:45
Speaker 2: can take certain stories and concepts and and blend them
13:50
Speaker 2: together into a coherent hole, which I don't think you
13:53
Speaker 2: could say of greetings if I would love to know
13:59
Speaker 2: if you agree, But that's kind of what I think.
14:02
Speaker 4: Great piece of trivia, by the way, and on this
14:03
Speaker 4: one too, Springsteen drew the album's title from the nineteen
14:06
Speaker 4: fifty nine Audi Murphy vehicle The Wild and the Innocent,
14:09
Speaker 4: the Western film set in Wyoming where mountain trapper Yancey
14:12
Speaker 4: played by Murphy, goes to the nearest town to trade
14:15
Speaker 4: his pelts but gets into trouble when he tries to
14:17
Speaker 4: save runaway Dan tall girl Rosa Lee played by Sander
14:21
Speaker 4: Dee from her shameful job. This is the kind of
14:23
Speaker 4: stuff you get in this book, folks.
14:25
Speaker 1: People get in trouble when they start trading pelts.
14:29
Speaker 3: Never trade pelts. Never boo podcasts. We'll be back after this.
14:35
Speaker 2: Can we go now? Please?
14:36
Speaker 1: People? A good plan today is better than the.
14:38
Speaker 2: Perfect plan tomorrow.
14:41
Speaker 3: All right?
14:42
Speaker 4: Now we get to an album called Born to Run.
14:44
Speaker 4: I'm born to Run I'm familiar with I think I've
14:46
Speaker 4: heard of this album before. Born to Run released in
14:49
Speaker 4: nineteen seventy five, So this is where Bruce becomes a
14:52
Speaker 4: huge star. It's also the first former release associated with
14:55
Speaker 4: the EA Street Band, the name coming from a street
14:58
Speaker 4: in Belmar, New Jersey, where the mother of keyboardist David
15:01
Speaker 4: Sanchez lived. His mother Stelma let the band rehearse there.
15:05
Speaker 4: What made the difference with this album? What is it
15:07
Speaker 4: about this collection of songs that connected with so many
15:09
Speaker 4: music fans.
15:11
Speaker 1: Well, it's just it's Bruce's last chance saloon for one thing, right,
15:14
Speaker 1: I mean, He's has to win the right to make
15:17
Speaker 1: it by making such a great song and Born to run.
15:21
Speaker 1: But it is a without a without question, you know.
15:26
Speaker 1: It's it's a bit of a miracle that we have
15:28
Speaker 1: it given the politics of the recording industry and the
15:32
Speaker 1: challenges of trying to in Bruce's case back then, maintain
15:37
Speaker 1: your deal. Right. But it's everything that Ken was describing before, right.
15:43
Speaker 1: The storytelling is has been growing by leaps and bounds,
15:49
Speaker 1: certainly between those first two albums and by the third one,
15:51
Speaker 1: we're getting you know, masterpieces like jungle Land right or
15:57
Speaker 1: thunder Road, you know, with incredible story about taking chances.
16:03
Speaker 1: You know, have a little faith. There's magic in the night,
16:06
Speaker 1: you know. Just the storytelling is so dramatic it you know,
16:14
Speaker 1: it blows me away. The bridge and Born to Run
16:18
Speaker 1: is as good as anything in rock by itself, you know,
16:22
Speaker 1: about the girls looking in the rear view mirrors, all
16:25
Speaker 1: the boys comb their hair, you know, and all that
16:27
Speaker 1: energy that just explodes by the by the end of
16:32
Speaker 1: that bridge.
16:34
Speaker 2: He worked so hard on that album, and he worked
16:38
Speaker 2: so hard on crafting each and every song and the
16:43
Speaker 2: way in which he put it together as kind of
16:47
Speaker 2: a rock opera. You can just you don't want to
16:50
Speaker 2: listen to a cut off of that album. You want
16:53
Speaker 2: to put that album on. And and from the moment
16:57
Speaker 2: you you know, hear those you know piano keys introducing
17:02
Speaker 2: thunder Road, you know, until the you know, the sax
17:06
Speaker 2: solo on jungle Land. It's it just I know that
17:11
Speaker 2: he was unhappy at first and wanted to throw it
17:17
Speaker 2: in the swimming pool or whatever. But uh, but it is.
17:22
Speaker 2: It is such a masterpiece. And and and I told
17:26
Speaker 2: people during the pandemic, I said, if you get too down,
17:30
Speaker 2: put put Born to Run, put the album on and
17:33
Speaker 2: listen to the album, and it will take you into
17:37
Speaker 2: a place that will lift your spirits and bring you
17:41
Speaker 2: back to life.
17:43
Speaker 4: And the titles a lot of those titles film noir
17:47
Speaker 4: like titles. You know he was a fan of that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
17:51
Speaker 4: Man and his legal battle then follows, and that's what
17:55
Speaker 4: is a strange manager Michaeh pel So that delays things
17:58
Speaker 4: will be three years later that Darkness on the Edge
18:01
Speaker 4: of Town comes out, released in June of seventy eight,
18:03
Speaker 4: you write. In his autobiography, Springsteen wrote about what he
18:06
Speaker 4: attempted to achieve with this album, saying quote, I was
18:09
Speaker 4: searching for a tone somewhere between Born to Run and
18:12
Speaker 4: seventies cynicism. I wanted my characters to feel weathered, older,
18:16
Speaker 4: but not beaten. He could have been perfectly describing himself
18:19
Speaker 4: at this stage of his career. Do you think he
18:22
Speaker 4: was describing himself with these songs?
18:24
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know that if he was, necessarily,
18:28
Speaker 1: I think this is where Ken and I began to
18:29
Speaker 1: get a lot of utility out of these albums in
18:32
Speaker 1: our classes. I mean, they all work, don't get me wrong,
18:36
Speaker 1: but you know, when you start thinking about nineteen seventies history,
18:40
Speaker 1: post Watergate, you know, Stagflations on its Way, etc. Etc.
18:45
Speaker 1: The Farm crisis, all of these issues that are going
18:48
Speaker 1: to emerge, particularly over the next couple of albums, It's
18:52
Speaker 1: just there's a rich mother load of songs to be
18:55
Speaker 1: able to discuss. Right in class. You can talk about
18:57
Speaker 1: the history, which is Ken's forte, but also then go
19:01
Speaker 1: right back to the personal. You know where Bruce is
19:03
Speaker 1: in his life at that time too, and it's a
19:07
Speaker 1: marvelous experience.
19:09
Speaker 2: He's writing about the working class, he's writing about American
19:14
Speaker 2: society and life at that time. He's writing about some
19:19
Speaker 2: of his own disillusionment. He's writing about the lies that
19:24
Speaker 2: Lee viewed nothing but down and broken hearted, the lies
19:29
Speaker 2: that he felt he had been told as he entered
19:33
Speaker 2: the music business and discovered what kind of brutal, harsh
19:38
Speaker 2: world it could be, and to me his to me,
19:43
Speaker 2: there are a lot of personal elements that make their
19:46
Speaker 2: way into the album, but I think that it is
19:50
Speaker 2: one of the genius characteristics of Bruce that he is
19:57
Speaker 2: able to make the personal more relatable to life in
20:04
Speaker 2: general and use his own experience to tap into larger
20:11
Speaker 2: human concerns and and and history and particular historical concerns
20:18
Speaker 2: where I do think that, as we said that he
20:22
Speaker 2: he's reflecting both where America is and in some ways
20:25
Speaker 2: where he is at exactly at the same time.
20:29
Speaker 4: Maybe the most interesting track for me is Candy's Room.
20:33
Speaker 4: The overall sound of it.
20:34
Speaker 3: And the.
20:36
Speaker 4: High hat and the lyrics pictures of heroes on the wall,
20:40
Speaker 4: and yeah, that's that. Album is passed from start to
20:45
Speaker 4: finish with classics and bad Lands. By the way, the
20:50
Speaker 4: central riff taken from The Animals nineteen sixty five hit
20:53
Speaker 4: Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood, which had originally been popularized
20:58
Speaker 4: by American singer songwriter Nina. I love that the roots
21:02
Speaker 4: of the nineteen eighties double album The River were several
21:06
Speaker 4: tracks recorded during those sessions for Darkness on the Edge
21:10
Speaker 4: of Town. Among the reviews included in the book is
21:13
Speaker 4: one from Sam Sutherland of High Fidelity, dated January of
21:16
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty one. He writes, quote on the River, he
21:20
Speaker 4: has done nothing less than summarize and extend the best
21:23
Speaker 4: features of his past work, fitting them into a brilliant
21:25
Speaker 4: conceptual framework. What makes that sense of formal purpose work
21:29
Speaker 4: is the seeming informality of the music itself. Alongside the
21:33
Speaker 4: deliberation of Darkness on the Edge of Town or the
21:36
Speaker 4: all or nothing fervor of Born to Run. These new
21:38
Speaker 4: songs often sound playful, off the cuff or even relaxed,
21:41
Speaker 4: Yet underneath the restored exuberance of its uptemple rockers and
21:45
Speaker 4: the spare low heat ache of its most introspective ballads
21:48
Speaker 4: lies a steady heartbeat. Double albums can be risky. It's
21:53
Speaker 4: hard to come up with something that's all killer and
21:55
Speaker 4: no filler. Is The River perfect as is?
22:00
Speaker 1: Well? You know this is ken and I are used
22:03
Speaker 1: to this debate from our work in the Beatles about
22:06
Speaker 1: a certain double album, But you know, it depends on
22:11
Speaker 1: where you come down. Are the songs, you know, universally
22:16
Speaker 1: great in the same way that I experienced Born to
22:20
Speaker 1: Run or The Wild, DNNIS and Easter Shuffle. Not for
22:23
Speaker 1: my money, but what I do like about it, and
22:28
Speaker 1: what I like about teaching Springsteen, especially by this point
22:31
Speaker 1: in the semester, is we talk about in my courses,
22:35
Speaker 1: we talk about ambition. This is an ambitious guy.
22:38
Speaker 3: You know.
22:39
Speaker 1: It would be very easy and even welcome right in
22:42
Speaker 1: a certain sense by record companies and executives for him
22:46
Speaker 1: to just do the same old thing over and over again.
22:50
Speaker 1: They'd be fine with that. But what Bruce shows us
22:54
Speaker 1: is that he's not that guy, that he's playing for
22:56
Speaker 1: something much larger, and of course to show up in
23:00
Speaker 1: with Nebraska is positively it's an ambitious record, and so
23:05
Speaker 1: I excuse it love it for that reason.
23:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would admit to not loving every song on
23:10
Speaker 2: the River. And and actually I don't think.
23:15
Speaker 4: From what we've just heard, Bruce is not happy with
23:19
Speaker 4: all the songs either.
23:20
Speaker 1: I think aren't there a couple that There's one he
23:22
Speaker 1: said is he considers to be his worst song.
23:24
Speaker 2: Crush on You. I think crush on You, I think
23:28
Speaker 2: he's I think he's yeah, but just like with the
23:32
Speaker 2: White Album. It's just what Ken was referring to. Of course, yeah,
23:36
Speaker 2: I mean you could have taken some songs off of
23:38
Speaker 2: there and still had a great album and arguably a better.
23:42
Speaker 1: Album, but that was because it's a master work.
23:51
Speaker 2: I would leave I mean I would. I actually don't disagree.
23:55
Speaker 2: I mean I would. I would leave it alone too.
23:57
Speaker 2: Because the Beatles were shape, They've decided that they could share,
24:05
Speaker 2: that they were entitled to share whatever it was that
24:08
Speaker 2: they were doing, and because they were the Beatles, it
24:12
Speaker 2: was going to be interest and even the songs that
24:16
Speaker 2: people might not like as much provide such a wonderful
24:19
Speaker 2: contrast with others that they kind of enhance the quality
24:24
Speaker 2: of what else is on there. I think similar principle
24:28
Speaker 2: maybe works with The River. But I think that whatever
24:32
Speaker 2: you think of the album, and I agree with Ken,
24:35
Speaker 2: that you're not going to listen to every single song
24:40
Speaker 2: and be as engrossed by it as you would by
24:43
Speaker 2: those on some of his other albums. When you listen
24:47
Speaker 2: to when you do listen to it, what you're hearing
24:52
Speaker 2: as somebody who's decided that he doesn't need to be
24:55
Speaker 2: one thing or the other. You know that he can
24:57
Speaker 2: be the soulful, thoughtful singer song writer who writes Independence
25:02
Speaker 2: Day and at the same time he can write out
25:05
Speaker 2: in the you know, include out in the Street or
25:07
Speaker 2: I'm a rocker, but I mean your point blank the River.
25:11
Speaker 2: I mean, there are some real, real classics on that album.
25:16
Speaker 2: And I think probably the biggest thing that stood out
25:19
Speaker 2: to me from doing the book it was how even
25:23
Speaker 2: when you think that he has like a throwaway song
25:26
Speaker 2: on there, he's still writing from a perspective that is
25:31
Speaker 2: in harmony with things that he's writing on his more
25:36
Speaker 2: serious or his more epics songs. And that increased my
25:42
Speaker 2: appreciation for for some of the songs that I thought,
25:47
Speaker 2: maybe we're like good party songs, but maybe there's not
25:50
Speaker 2: that much to them. But you listen to a song
25:51
Speaker 2: like out in the Street and there's a lot going
25:53
Speaker 2: on there.
25:55
Speaker 4: Stolen Cars another one, Drive all Night is another one.
26:00
Speaker 4: Two great songs that I don't know if you recall
26:02
Speaker 4: was the Sylvester Saloon movie in the nineties, Copland. I
26:08
Speaker 4: think they used both of those songs for that film. Yeah,
26:11
Speaker 4: Hungary Heart was written for the remotes Bruce runs into
26:16
Speaker 4: Joey Ramone at Asbury Park. But John Linda always want
26:19
Speaker 4: to say no, no, We're going to keep this one.
26:21
Speaker 3: That's the right call.
26:22
Speaker 4: Yeah, what comes next? It's one of the boldest moves
26:26
Speaker 4: not just Bruce history music history. I think Bruce is
26:28
Speaker 4: now at the point where the record label's banking on
26:31
Speaker 4: another hit record, right, and they didn't know He's going
26:34
Speaker 4: to deliver a stripped down, dark batch demos recorded on
26:37
Speaker 4: a four track recorder, which would end up being nineteen
26:41
Speaker 4: eighty two's Nebraska. As with all of the albums in
26:44
Speaker 4: the book, you include many of the reviews from critics.
26:46
Speaker 2: What was the.
26:46
Speaker 4: Overall response to the album by them? And what are
26:50
Speaker 4: your opinions of this album?
26:52
Speaker 1: Well, I mean the response was typically very strong. I
26:55
Speaker 1: mean it was risky, but it was done so well
27:00
Speaker 1: that people cottonto what Bruce was trying to pull off.
27:06
Speaker 1: It's such an interesting portrait to provide in nineteen eighty two, right,
27:11
Speaker 1: these different caricatures that Bruce provides about outlaws, people living
27:16
Speaker 1: outside the boundaries of society, etc. I mean, the thing
27:21
Speaker 1: really still rings strongly with me today. Ken. I mean,
27:24
Speaker 1: it sir, connects with history a lot, doesn't it.
27:27
Speaker 2: It sure does. And I just wrote an article on
27:32
Speaker 2: teaching Springsteen's Nebraska for a special edition of a journal
27:36
Speaker 2: that Ken's editing. And there are so many rich themes
27:43
Speaker 2: that he develops in this album, and a general attitude
27:48
Speaker 2: towards American history that is reflective of the time, but
27:53
Speaker 2: it's also reflective of deeper, long range concerns about the
27:58
Speaker 2: direction that the country is going. In the album, I
28:02
Speaker 2: think got pretty good or favorable critical reviews. It certainly
28:08
Speaker 2: didn't maybe resonate as much with certainly his casual fans,
28:14
Speaker 2: but I think it's held up pretty well, and as
28:18
Speaker 2: a cultural and historical artifact, I think it's one of
28:21
Speaker 2: his most important works.
28:24
Speaker 3: Book on rock podcasts. We'll be back after.
28:26
Speaker 4: This make soon, okay, I mean you know where we are.
28:31
Speaker 3: I tell you, Brad.
28:34
Speaker 4: If Bruce doesn't follow his heart with Nebraska, Born in
28:39
Speaker 4: the USA, would never have happened. He had to purge
28:41
Speaker 4: those feelings to record another straight ahead rock and roll album,
28:45
Speaker 4: and he comes up with one of the biggest selling
28:47
Speaker 4: albums ever with nineteen eighty four is Born in the USA,
28:50
Speaker 4: and he found inspiration for the album from reading ron
28:53
Speaker 4: Kovic's Vietnam era memoir Born on the fourth of July
28:56
Speaker 4: from nineteen seventy six, as well as a script by
28:59
Speaker 4: Paul Schrader with the working title of Born in USA.
29:02
Speaker 4: The title track cover me, I'm on Fire, Glory Days,
29:06
Speaker 4: Dancing in the Dark, My Hometown, all huge hit singles,
29:10
Speaker 4: top the charts in nine countries, over thirty million copies
29:13
Speaker 4: sold worldwide. What were your first impressions of the album
29:16
Speaker 4: the first time you heard it and how do you
29:19
Speaker 4: feel about it now forty years later?
29:21
Speaker 1: Well, I, you know, I'll be brief, but I there
29:25
Speaker 1: are songs that I continue to love. I like I'm
29:28
Speaker 1: on Fire, for example, very very much, or I'm Going Down.
29:32
Speaker 1: I love teaching the title track of all of Bruce Records.
29:38
Speaker 1: Though the challenge for me has been was then when
29:43
Speaker 1: it came out and is now? It just sounds like
29:47
Speaker 1: so it's so deeply embedded in the nineteen eighties, the
29:51
Speaker 1: sound of the nineteen eighties that I have trouble divorcing
29:53
Speaker 1: it from that. You know, I can enjoy the melodies
29:59
Speaker 1: and uh and certainly the work that he's doing with
30:02
Speaker 1: the record, but it's it's just of all the records,
30:04
Speaker 1: it feels dated to me, and.
30:08
Speaker 4: Which is why I asked that question later me and
30:11
Speaker 4: you know.
30:11
Speaker 1: I know plenty of people who it is as central
30:15
Speaker 1: to them as you know, Exile on Main Street or whatever.
30:19
Speaker 1: But it it comes off, you know, it's especially after Nebraska,
30:27
Speaker 1: which is so heartfelt and scathing, then you have this
30:32
Speaker 1: this album that feels highly polished and well produced, which
30:38
Speaker 1: it is right, those things are true, but I kind
30:44
Speaker 1: of missed the rawness a little bit.
30:47
Speaker 2: I remember talking to somebody knew at the time who
30:52
Speaker 2: was a Springsteen fan, and I remember asking her, what
30:57
Speaker 2: do you think of Glory Days? And and I think
31:01
Speaker 2: I asked, I asked that pertic because I hadn't made
31:04
Speaker 2: up my own mind about that song or the album.
31:08
Speaker 2: I didn't dislike it, but it wasn't and no did
31:14
Speaker 2: I expect it, you know, to be. But it wasn't
31:18
Speaker 2: Born to run. It wasn't darkness. It didn't have even
31:22
Speaker 2: songs on it that to me stood out in the
31:26
Speaker 2: way that you know, the River or or or point
31:30
Speaker 2: blank stood out for me for me on on on
31:34
Speaker 2: the on the River. So it's it's it's popular, it's
31:39
Speaker 2: I still listened to to it and and to songs
31:43
Speaker 2: from it, and I enjoy them, but it's more, you know,
31:50
Speaker 2: you kind of sing along to Cover Me or No Surrender,
31:54
Speaker 2: but it doesn't they don't necessarily touch you in the
31:58
Speaker 2: way that thunder Road or Jungle Land or Point Blank
32:05
Speaker 2: or Fourth of July Asbury Park or you know. That's
32:10
Speaker 2: kind of maybe like missing a little something for me
32:13
Speaker 2: in that respect. But I didn't. I didn't dislike the
32:17
Speaker 2: songs on the album, and I still don't.
32:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would agree.
32:22
Speaker 4: Yeah, Dancing in the Dark is probably the one that
32:24
Speaker 4: it's the most eighties sounding, but it's it's the biggest
32:28
Speaker 4: hit on the album, last song recorded for the album,
32:31
Speaker 4: And there's a story in the book I love that
32:35
Speaker 4: it was written at the urging of Landau, who felt
32:37
Speaker 4: that the album needed a lead off single.
32:39
Speaker 3: Look.
32:40
Speaker 4: Bruce reportedly barked at Landau, I've written seventy songs. You
32:43
Speaker 4: want another one, you write it. And then that night
32:46
Speaker 4: Springsteen retires to his hotel room. He writes Dancing in
32:49
Speaker 4: the Dark in One City and recorded in six takes
32:52
Speaker 4: on February fourteenth, nineteen eighty four, a the hit Factory,
32:55
Speaker 4: Now I Go, I Go, a Tonnel of Love. It
32:57
Speaker 4: is my personal favorite Bruce album released. Tone eight seven
33:01
Speaker 4: comes at a difficult time Bruce's life, his marriage to
33:03
Speaker 4: Julianne Phillips's in jeopardy and he's reaching middle age. He's
33:07
Speaker 4: questioning himself and questioning himself in relationships, and he's more
33:12
Speaker 4: famous than ever before, which he's having difficulty with as well.
33:18
Speaker 4: He's gotten members of the EA Street banned on the album,
33:20
Speaker 4: but it's labeled as just Bruce Springsteen on the album,
33:23
Speaker 4: which is interesting. But they did rejoin him for the tour.
33:26
Speaker 4: But an interesting comment I want to ask you about
33:28
Speaker 4: from Max Weinberg. This is in the book. He said
33:30
Speaker 4: quote things had been changing for a while in terms
33:33
Speaker 4: of the band. We had done the Tunnel of Love project,
33:35
Speaker 4: which was Bruce's solo album, and then we went on
33:38
Speaker 4: tour to accompany him. Although it was great fun, it
33:41
Speaker 4: felt at the time like something was winding down, so
33:44
Speaker 4: I made plans to go back to Seaton Hall University.
33:46
Speaker 4: So I wonder if you guys felt that way at
33:49
Speaker 4: the time, and did Bruce's fans embrace the direction Bruce
33:52
Speaker 4: went with this album.
33:55
Speaker 1: I would defer that part of the question to ken
33:59
Speaker 1: like you, this is my favorites it and I adore
34:05
Speaker 1: the way it goes through all of these machinations about
34:10
Speaker 1: love and losing love and the stresses of you know,
34:15
Speaker 1: falling in love the second time around, right, and the
34:18
Speaker 1: brilliant disguises that we create, and that it ends up
34:22
Speaker 1: on Valentine's Day, which is a love song about family
34:28
Speaker 1: as much as anything else. I love the journey on
34:30
Speaker 1: this record, and I enjoyed taking it. I mean, ken
34:36
Speaker 1: did he lose fans over this?
34:38
Speaker 2: But I don't know if he lost fans. I don't
34:40
Speaker 2: know if he lost fans over it. But I don't
34:42
Speaker 2: know that he gained a lot of fans as a
34:45
Speaker 2: result of it. I don't. I think if you were
34:49
Speaker 2: with him already, you might have. You might have just
34:55
Speaker 2: liked it because it was what because it was Bruce Springsteen.
35:00
Speaker 2: But I don't know that it had the kind of
35:04
Speaker 2: it certainly didn't have the kind of impact you know
35:06
Speaker 2: that Born in the USA had in terms of, you know,
35:10
Speaker 2: putting him on the popular radar. But certainly there's certainly
35:15
Speaker 2: the songs on it got some radio play, and I
35:20
Speaker 2: think Brilliant Disguise and One Step Back and those are
35:25
Speaker 2: among his best so best songs. I mean, I would
35:28
Speaker 2: put them in any list of, like, you know, his
35:30
Speaker 2: greatest songs. So to me, he's still doing really really
35:36
Speaker 2: great and interesting stuff, and I like, I get better
35:39
Speaker 2: than Born in the USA.
35:41
Speaker 4: Okay interesting?
35:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
35:44
Speaker 4: I think people at the time were expecting maybe another
35:47
Speaker 4: Born in the USA, at least the fair Weather fans.
35:49
Speaker 3: But he was to do that.
35:50
Speaker 4: He never he'll never do that.
35:52
Speaker 1: So something you said, something was changing, and I think
35:55
Speaker 1: something was changing at that point. Remember, you know, Bruce
35:57
Speaker 1: is now in this business as a maker of albums
36:02
Speaker 1: for fourteen years. He's been playing music a lot longer
36:04
Speaker 1: than that. It must have felt like, you know, for
36:10
Speaker 1: most people, that's a career, and I imagine if you're
36:13
Speaker 1: in the East Street Band, after crisscrossing the world several
36:16
Speaker 1: times promoting all of these records, it probably did feel
36:22
Speaker 1: like something was changing. Maybe they were getting to the
36:24
Speaker 1: end of something, right. I mean, you know, in the
36:27
Speaker 1: sixties with the Beatles, nobody imagined having a career doing this.
36:33
Speaker 1: You know, after the seventies, you know, it would seem
36:36
Speaker 1: more apropos But it had to have felt like something
36:39
Speaker 1: was winding down. I think that makes perfect sense, and
36:43
Speaker 1: that you know that band, if they'd never done anything again,
36:49
Speaker 1: we probably understand, right, I mean, that's that's a.
36:51
Speaker 4: Long Run Kenneth Womack and Kenneth L. Campbell, authors of
36:56
Speaker 4: the new book Bruce Songs The Music of Bruce Springsteen
36:58
Speaker 4: album by album, song by song, so tunneled love to
37:01
Speaker 4: mark the end of Bruce's run in the eighties. It
37:03
Speaker 4: would be five years before he returned with two albums
37:07
Speaker 4: released at the same time. And I remember this very well.
37:10
Speaker 4: I was in college at the time. Ninety two is
37:11
Speaker 4: Human Touch and Lucky Town, and this was kind of
37:17
Speaker 4: bitter sweet, No eas street band. Roy Bitten's there, he's
37:20
Speaker 4: on keyboards as a professor, but other than that, it's
37:25
Speaker 4: a whole new lineup for each album. I'm a fan
37:28
Speaker 4: of many of the tracks from both albums, mostly Human Touch.
37:31
Speaker 4: But yeah, for me, I was kind of one of
37:35
Speaker 4: these reband behind them. It just didn't feel right. What
37:37
Speaker 4: did you think of those two albums? You know?
37:40
Speaker 1: This is where I want to defer to my colleague first, guys, Ken,
37:45
Speaker 1: I play into these better and differently than I ever have.
37:50
Speaker 2: I like to say that if anybody else but Bruce
37:54
Speaker 2: Springsteen had released these albums, they would be regarded as
37:57
Speaker 2: among the best albums of the nineteen nineties. But because
38:00
Speaker 2: they are by Bruce Springsteen, and he had set such
38:03
Speaker 2: a high standard for himself that fans were disappointed in
38:10
Speaker 2: them because they for a number of reasons, they wasn't
38:14
Speaker 2: doing with the East Street Band. He'd moved to l A.
38:18
Speaker 2: They kind of you see him as like the you
38:21
Speaker 2: know that, as maybe as relatable on a personal level
38:26
Speaker 2: as he'd once been. This was during a kind of recession.
38:31
Speaker 2: I think that it was Dave Marsh who pointed out
38:36
Speaker 2: that that it took a certain hubris to release two
38:42
Speaker 2: albums simultaneously, with each separate prices on them, you know,
38:47
Speaker 2: while people were struggling economically. But I think that there
38:52
Speaker 2: are really really interesting tracks on both albums, and had
38:59
Speaker 2: a lot of fun analyzing them when we were doing
39:04
Speaker 2: the book.
39:04
Speaker 4: So now we move into the mid nineties. He released
39:07
Speaker 4: the largely folk and acoustic oriented The Ghost of Tom
39:10
Speaker 4: Joe November of ninety five. Earlier that year came The
39:13
Speaker 4: Greatest Hits Album, which featured the return of the EA
39:16
Speaker 4: Street band I'm Blood Brothers in This hard Land. His
39:19
Speaker 4: song Street of Philadelphia won an Academy Award for Grammy Awards,
39:23
Speaker 4: including Song of the Year and Best Rock Song. I
39:26
Speaker 4: feel like the whole decade of the nineties was like
39:28
Speaker 4: an extended Nebraska thing for Bruce, like he had some
39:31
Speaker 4: things to sort out in his music in his life
39:33
Speaker 4: to get to that point where he brings back the
39:36
Speaker 4: EA Street Band in the early two thousands. How do
39:38
Speaker 4: you look back at that decade for Bruce, the nineties.
39:41
Speaker 1: I think that's a brilliant way to think about it.
39:43
Speaker 1: I typically teach Tom Jod along with Secret Garden and
39:50
Speaker 1: The Streets of Philadelphia. I see them sort of as
39:53
Speaker 1: a piece, even though sonically two of those songs are
39:57
Speaker 1: not like a lot of the material, because they typify
40:02
Speaker 1: so many of the ways I think about the nineties
40:06
Speaker 1: and that decade. And it's interesting that in the case
40:10
Speaker 1: of Tom Joad, Bruce had to go to you know,
40:14
Speaker 1: Henry Fonda film essentially to be able to find his
40:19
Speaker 1: way not just into the Grapes of Wrath, but into
40:24
Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties. It's just a fascinating lens and it
40:28
Speaker 1: is there is a Nebraska esque kind of quality again.
40:33
Speaker 2: Oh, definitely, definitely. And this is another album that really
40:37
Speaker 2: lends itself well to teaching from a historical perspective, because
40:44
Speaker 2: you can talk about the depression and you can talk
40:46
Speaker 2: about what he got three and Grapes of Wrath, and
40:52
Speaker 2: you can sort of trace Bruce's interest in American history
40:55
Speaker 2: and how that's shaping him. But it's still also set
40:58
Speaker 2: at a particular moment, and it is about the present
41:02
Speaker 2: as much as it is about the past. So it
41:04
Speaker 2: is really a great album for teaching Bruce and entry
41:07
Speaker 2: point into the decade. And you also have to remember
41:12
Speaker 2: just that, you know, so what he's like forty, you know,
41:16
Speaker 2: mid forties, you know, at this time, so his interests
41:21
Speaker 2: are becoming he's certainly more mature. His interests are becoming
41:26
Speaker 2: more serious, and he's got some important things to say,
41:29
Speaker 2: and he uses this as a vehicle to say them.
41:32
Speaker 2: And I think it's great Booked on.
41:35
Speaker 3: Rock podcasts will be back after this, which, mind I
41:38
Speaker 3: will be Long.
41:40
Speaker 4: Streets of Philadelphia was was a song where it was
41:43
Speaker 4: not autobiographical. I think I remember him talking about that
41:46
Speaker 4: was a little bit of a different approach for him
41:48
Speaker 4: because he's now writing a song for a film and
41:51
Speaker 4: it was just him. He's just he does all the
41:53
Speaker 4: instrumentation on that song from what I recall correct.
41:57
Speaker 1: Well, and it's it's you know, he's always had a
42:00
Speaker 1: deep social conscience and you know, speaking about the AIDS crisis,
42:07
Speaker 1: and you know, the ravaging of the American soul, etc.
42:15
Speaker 1: Was right coming from him, you know.
42:18
Speaker 4: And then we have The Rising in July two thousand
42:21
Speaker 4: and two, and that mark Springsteen's first studio album nearly
42:24
Speaker 4: seven years. It brought back the members of the EA
42:26
Speaker 4: Street Band, produced by Brendan O'Brien. This was a response
42:29
Speaker 4: to nine to eleven. He would return to the cover
42:32
Speaker 4: of Time magazine and I remember it felt like the
42:35
Speaker 4: music world needed Bruce at this time. And there's that
42:38
Speaker 4: great story that from his book that you quote in
42:40
Speaker 4: your book about He's he's in New York and a
42:44
Speaker 4: fan comes up to him says, Bruce, we need you,
42:46
Speaker 4: you know, and Bruce's yeah, I kind of kind of
42:49
Speaker 4: know what he meant. So that inspired him to come back.
42:51
Speaker 4: Are you on board with the overall consensus of that
42:55
Speaker 4: album that it was a triumphant return for Bruce.
42:58
Speaker 1: For my money, it certainly is, and you know, kudos
43:03
Speaker 1: to him. He comes back with a strong new producer
43:07
Speaker 1: in that way, the trilogy at the end of the
43:11
Speaker 1: album makes the thing for me. Although there are several
43:14
Speaker 1: great songs like Lonesome Day, et cetera. But that trilogy
43:17
Speaker 1: at the end is just such a powerful ode to
43:20
Speaker 1: what a lot of people were experiencing and feeling at
43:23
Speaker 1: that time. It certainly was a triumph to my ears.
43:27
Speaker 2: Mine too as well, very much. So, I think that
43:32
Speaker 2: it's an album that does reflect and address the tragedy
43:37
Speaker 2: of nine to eleven in a way that didn't seem
43:42
Speaker 2: to sensationalize it or to trivialize it. That no, I
43:51
Speaker 2: mean it took it seriously and showed some empathy and
43:56
Speaker 2: showed some understanding. And at the same time, and this
44:03
Speaker 2: applies to some of his later albums too, you could
44:08
Speaker 2: listen to it and enjoy it without necessarily having to
44:15
Speaker 2: dwell on the tragedy because, as Ken said, there are
44:19
Speaker 2: just so many just great songs on it. So I
44:23
Speaker 2: think by every measure it was a success and a
44:27
Speaker 2: triumphal return.
44:28
Speaker 4: The last three the last three tracks, the Rising Paradise,
44:31
Speaker 4: My City of Ruins, My City of Ruins is when
44:34
Speaker 4: he played like a week or two after nine to
44:36
Speaker 4: eleven on that that TV special, correct, Yeah, Yeah, Bruce
44:43
Speaker 4: was as busy as ever in the two thousands. Devil
44:45
Speaker 4: in Dust two thousand and five, We Shall Overcome the
44:48
Speaker 4: Seeger Sessions two thousand and six, Magic two thousand and seven,
44:52
Speaker 4: Working on a Dream two thousand and nine. I want
44:55
Speaker 4: to ask you about Magic. Is there a songs on
44:57
Speaker 4: here that should have been huge hits radio? Nowhere is
44:59
Speaker 4: one of my ALTI on favorite Bruce songs Living in
45:01
Speaker 4: the Future, girls in the Summer Clothes, And I made
45:05
Speaker 4: note of this before reading the first line in the
45:07
Speaker 4: entry on girls in their Summer Clothes. You write this
45:10
Speaker 4: catch you pop tune could have easily been a hit
45:13
Speaker 4: if had been released at an earlier time when such
45:15
Speaker 4: songs ruled the airwaves. Bruce expressed the same frustration. I
45:19
Speaker 4: remember reading an interview where he talked about that, and
45:22
Speaker 4: it's noted in by the critic entries in the book
45:24
Speaker 4: that it's on the even record, But I think it's
45:28
Speaker 4: his most overlooked of the decade.
45:30
Speaker 3: Your thoughts on Magic, You know that all.
45:33
Speaker 1: Of this is entirely true. You know he's had only
45:37
Speaker 1: one non top ten album since Born to Run, and
45:41
Speaker 1: that's Tom Jode, which is you know, you almost need
45:45
Speaker 1: to go back and look at the top ten to
45:46
Speaker 1: try to understand why, because it's such a damn good record.
45:51
Speaker 1: But Magic is a is a number one album, right,
45:56
Speaker 1: And I think that we're now in a in a
46:00
Speaker 1: place in the industry where a person like a Bruce
46:04
Speaker 1: Springsteen is going to see his returns in terms of
46:11
Speaker 1: the album experience, right, Whereas you know, the singles artists
46:17
Speaker 1: of the day are often very different. This is just
46:20
Speaker 1: a fact of a very swiftly changing post digital industry, right,
46:26
Speaker 1: post file sharing, post streaming industry. Bruce just competes differently.
46:34
Speaker 1: Ken and I were on a conversation the other day
46:37
Speaker 1: and he'll remember exactly what I'm talking about when this
46:40
Speaker 1: one fellow was really trashing the new album, right, Only
46:45
Speaker 1: the strong survive. And I think when we look at
46:50
Speaker 1: this entire period, first of all, we're very lucky, right.
46:54
Speaker 1: You know that we're all around. Life is fleeting, life
46:57
Speaker 1: is chancy and huge about a philosopher from many years ago,
47:03
Speaker 1: and you know, it's a wonder and a somewhat of
47:06
Speaker 1: a miracle that we're all experiencing what we are sharing together,
47:10
Speaker 1: Parking that idea for a moment. You know, Bruce is
47:14
Speaker 1: the beneficiary of a long career, right, And having a
47:19
Speaker 1: long career means that you've spanned so many different periods
47:24
Speaker 1: that you're literally spanning different kinds of different moments in
47:28
Speaker 1: history where the industry has changed so dramatically. The fact
47:32
Speaker 1: that he's still chop topping or near topping the charts
47:35
Speaker 1: of for albums is amazing, you know, But this is
47:39
Speaker 1: what happens when someone lives a long life and has
47:42
Speaker 1: a long career. We get to benefit from the experience.
47:46
Speaker 1: But some like this guy the other day, right Ken,
47:50
Speaker 1: he just wasn't having it.
47:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, he wasn't having it. And you know
47:54
Speaker 2: when I I just want to say one thing about Magic.
47:58
Speaker 2: When I heard Magic, uh, and I'd like, I mean,
48:04
Speaker 2: I've been in Bruce bringsty Fanna listened to his music
48:06
Speaker 2: practically since the beginning of an End, and uh, I
48:12
Speaker 2: I listened to that album and and my reaction was,
48:15
Speaker 2: how does he keep doing it? I'm like, I like,
48:20
Speaker 2: I like this as much as anything. That's the way
48:24
Speaker 2: that I thought Gypsy Biker. I mean, I mean just
48:28
Speaker 2: I mean, every one song after another, and I'm like this,
48:32
Speaker 2: this guy, this guy, he's I mean, he's incredible. That's
48:38
Speaker 2: that was my reaction to Magic. I'm glad you've singled
48:41
Speaker 2: that out. I think there's good stuff on all of
48:43
Speaker 2: the other you know albums too, and had really you know,
48:47
Speaker 2: ken and I think I both had a lot of
48:48
Speaker 2: fun writing about you know songs that we maybe normally
48:53
Speaker 2: wouldn't pay as much attention to. But but I I
48:59
Speaker 2: I I think you were right to single out Magic
49:02
Speaker 2: among those among those two thousand decade albums.
49:06
Speaker 4: Yeah You'll be coming down. I don't know if did
49:08
Speaker 4: I mention that one's.
49:09
Speaker 2: No, no, it's you know, it's yeah, it's uh it's
49:15
Speaker 2: a fun rocking album. And uh, I think, you know,
49:19
Speaker 2: like you might even compare it favorably to Born in
49:24
Speaker 2: the in the USA, as as as like a really
49:27
Speaker 2: excellent pop album that I think I like better than
49:30
Speaker 2: Born in the USA.
49:31
Speaker 1: Oh, I think I do too, And and and that
49:33
Speaker 1: is staggering to think that he can work at that
49:36
Speaker 1: level of quality for so long.
49:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, amazing.
49:39
Speaker 4: And I remember I think it was around that time
49:42
Speaker 4: that Stephen Van Zanne was saying, he's like, Bruce just
49:47
Speaker 4: has like thousands of songs, like he just writes all
49:49
Speaker 4: the time. He goes, can you just give me some
49:52
Speaker 4: of those step coming up with this.
49:55
Speaker 2: I forget which one it was, but on one of
49:57
Speaker 2: the documentaries, Stephen van zend I might have been on
50:02
Speaker 2: the one of about bart darkness, but Stephen zan Zenz
50:05
Speaker 2: said that if he'd wanted to be, he could have
50:08
Speaker 2: been like the best pop songwriter of all time, but
50:14
Speaker 2: he decided not to focus on that. But I think
50:18
Speaker 2: Magic is a good example of what Stephen was talking
50:22
Speaker 2: about when he said.
50:23
Speaker 3: That looked on podcasts. We'll be back after this high
50:28
Speaker 3: will we can you? Jazzy h will be back.
50:36
Speaker 4: The following decade. We got Wrecking Ball twenty twelve, High
50:38
Speaker 4: Hopes twenty fourteen, Western Stars twenty nineteen, Letter to You
50:42
Speaker 4: twenty twenty and then twenty twenty two. Is only the
50:44
Speaker 4: strong survive? Is Sadly Clarence Clements passed away in twenty eleven.
50:49
Speaker 4: He was, I believe last heard on a few tracks
50:52
Speaker 4: from Wrecking Ball and High Hopes. I think he's one
50:55
Speaker 4: a few of those, and then his nephew, Jake took over.
50:58
Speaker 4: Clarence was such a huge part of Bruce's life. Did
51:01
Speaker 4: you think that maybe Bruce was going to decide to
51:03
Speaker 4: put the EA Street Band to rest? And what did
51:06
Speaker 4: you think of the decision to bring in Jake?
51:09
Speaker 1: Well, I realized the other night when he was playing
51:12
Speaker 1: jungle Land on the Beach that I the last time
51:14
Speaker 1: I'd heard it Clarence played the saxo at least live
51:18
Speaker 1: Clarence had played the sack solo, and Jake just killed it.
51:21
Speaker 1: He has really grown into that role, you know. It
51:25
Speaker 1: was very tentative at first. Not anymore. He is. His
51:28
Speaker 1: voice as a musician is solid. And you know, going
51:33
Speaker 1: to that question though, and I think Ken and I
51:35
Speaker 1: have enjoyed this part of the book as much as
51:37
Speaker 1: any the way Bruce has found himself in the way
51:43
Speaker 1: of losing someone like Clarence, which is enormous, right, I
51:46
Speaker 1: mean he marks time by when the big man joined
51:49
Speaker 1: the band, right, you know, this is just an absolutely
51:53
Speaker 1: enormous milestone. And to have a record like Western Stars.
51:59
Speaker 1: You know, Ken just talked about how does he keep
52:01
Speaker 1: doing it? With Magic?
52:02
Speaker 3: Love that album The Stars.
52:04
Speaker 1: Not only did I think, how does he keep doing it?
52:06
Speaker 1: It's one of my favorite albums, love it. I was
52:10
Speaker 1: surprised that I was getting that from Bruce at this point,
52:13
Speaker 1: right that I now go back to in the way
52:16
Speaker 1: that I do with that record, and I know Ken
52:18
Speaker 1: does too. We're both just we fought over it on
52:22
Speaker 1: who was going to write up some of the entries,
52:25
Speaker 1: you know, and it's just a master work cinematic and
52:30
Speaker 1: it's very, very cinematic. It's obviously an homage to the
52:33
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies in some senses, but it's also this arc
52:38
Speaker 1: of a story again from hitchhiking right all the way
52:42
Speaker 1: to this moment at the end, the hotel, right, Moonlight motels,
52:48
Speaker 1: you know, it's bills and kids and kids and bills,
52:51
Speaker 1: where he takes it right down to the micro just
52:54
Speaker 1: so impressive. And a person who does that is someone
52:58
Speaker 1: who so many years ago had these ambitions, uh, and
53:02
Speaker 1: then the ambition and then the skills to make the
53:04
Speaker 1: ambitions come true.
53:06
Speaker 2: And just to amplify what Ken said, uh, And I
53:09
Speaker 2: agree with him about Western Stars, but I feel about
53:14
Speaker 2: Letter to You the way that Ken feels about Western Stars.
53:17
Speaker 2: It is one of my favorite Bruce Springsteen albums, and
53:23
Speaker 2: the fact that he could again exceed whatever expectations I
53:29
Speaker 2: might have had of a new Bruce Springsteen album just
53:34
Speaker 2: just amazed me. And I think that what happens is
53:38
Speaker 2: I think what happened with me asked about the you know,
53:41
Speaker 2: the East Street Band and being surprised that he brought
53:44
Speaker 2: them back. So you think about the the Beatles, you know,
53:48
Speaker 2: breaking up after you know the dozen or so years
53:54
Speaker 2: that they were together as a group less if you
53:57
Speaker 2: want to, just take the period that Ringo was with them, right,
54:02
Speaker 2: And and it's not surprising. In fact, in one documentary,
54:09
Speaker 2: and this was not about the Beatles, but one documentary,
54:13
Speaker 2: David Crosby said that it's never a surprise when a
54:17
Speaker 2: band breaks up. It's a surprise when a band stays together.
54:20
Speaker 2: All bands break up, it's part of the it's part
54:24
Speaker 2: of what happens, you know, in the in the industry.
54:26
Speaker 2: People need to go and they find their own identity
54:29
Speaker 2: or they need to you know, not just find new
54:32
Speaker 2: sources of inspiration. Or you develop new friends as you
54:36
Speaker 2: go through life, and you might remain retain fond memories
54:41
Speaker 2: of your old friends, but a lot of them you
54:43
Speaker 2: don't see as much as you used to. That's part
54:45
Speaker 2: of all of our human experience. And I think that
54:49
Speaker 2: what Bruce has been very very fortunate. We've been very
54:51
Speaker 2: very fortunate that he reached a point where he realized
54:56
Speaker 2: that life wasn't going to go on forever and that
54:59
Speaker 2: it was an important to put old differences aside and
55:03
Speaker 2: that he had always loved playing with these guys and
55:05
Speaker 2: if he had a chance to keep doing it, he
55:08
Speaker 2: just decided he was going to keep doing it. And
55:10
Speaker 2: if you watch the documentary of the making of Letter
55:15
Speaker 2: to You, you can see how much like those guys
55:20
Speaker 2: really love each other, and it shows in the work
55:24
Speaker 2: and the quality that they put into it. And the
55:28
Speaker 2: last thing I would add in connection to that is
55:30
Speaker 2: you also see how much he cares about his audience,
55:34
Speaker 2: his fans, and and and and and we are. It's
55:40
Speaker 2: why I think people feel who like him feel such
55:43
Speaker 2: a personal connection to him is because he really it's
55:47
Speaker 2: he really seems to feel that with us. You know,
55:50
Speaker 2: even if you've never met him, and I've never met him,
55:54
Speaker 2: and that doesn't that doesn't bother me, because you know,
55:58
Speaker 2: I I still feel a connection to him, and I
56:02
Speaker 2: don't feel like I need to meet him to tell
56:06
Speaker 2: him that. I feel like he already knows that on
56:08
Speaker 2: some level.
56:09
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah.
56:10
Speaker 4: And there's great footage of him with the fans over
56:12
Speaker 4: the years, like this one recently where he was on
56:14
Speaker 4: the street somewhere and fan was just like can I
56:17
Speaker 4: just hug you? And Bruce is like, come here, gives
56:20
Speaker 4: her a big hug. You know that's he feels like
56:22
Speaker 4: a friend. So I guess that answers the question. Though
56:25
Speaker 4: there was no question in your mind when Clarence passed
56:27
Speaker 4: he's going to keep going with the EA Street Band.
56:29
Speaker 4: It was just a matter of who we're going to find, yeah,
56:33
Speaker 4: to fill his spot, and it was and they kept
56:35
Speaker 4: it in the family, which is which is great. I
56:37
Speaker 4: was just talking about Tom Morello with a coworker and
56:40
Speaker 4: I brought up his work with Bruce and he was like,
56:43
Speaker 4: he worked with Bruce Fringsteen said, yeah, he did. You
56:46
Speaker 4: know what an unexpected move and the results are interesting.
56:49
Speaker 4: He was on a few tracks for Wrecking Ball, He's
56:51
Speaker 4: on most of the songs in High Hopes, a collection
56:54
Speaker 4: of cover songs and now takes reimagined versions of tracks
56:57
Speaker 4: from past albums, EPs and tours. I'm curious, as do
57:01
Speaker 4: you guys think of that the results of that collaboration.
57:05
Speaker 4: Would you have been interested in hearing more of those
57:07
Speaker 4: guys together writing music together?
57:09
Speaker 2: Maybe? And I'm gonna let you take this.
57:12
Speaker 1: I was going to let you take I would just
57:15
Speaker 1: say that there are a lot of people Bruce goes
57:17
Speaker 1: back to again and again, which tells you about his
57:20
Speaker 1: confidence and as you the trust he has in them,
57:23
Speaker 1: you know, to be able to to work on them
57:26
Speaker 1: as fellow musicians, and you could pick some Me Streeters
57:31
Speaker 1: right like Stevie and others. The fact that he goes
57:34
Speaker 1: back to him, you know, Tom brings him an edge
57:36
Speaker 1: that he likes working with. That's part of the beauty
57:39
Speaker 1: of all of especially these twenty first century albums, you know,
57:43
Speaker 1: willing them into being when you know there are other
57:49
Speaker 1: things that folks could be doing.
57:52
Speaker 3: Podcasts will be back after this.
57:54
Speaker 1: We'll be back with the Magic Tones for the Armada
57:56
Speaker 1: Rooms to our disco swing party after this shortbreak.
57:59
Speaker 2: Till then, don't you go change?
58:01
Speaker 4: In Western Stars we talked about I put that at
58:05
Speaker 4: top my list of Bruce songs during that decade and
58:08
Speaker 4: his last two studio albums, A Letter to You from
58:11
Speaker 4: twenty twenty only the strong survive albums number twenty and
58:15
Speaker 4: twenty one. Interesting note on Letter to You in the book,
58:18
Speaker 4: it reads this Letter to You holds the distinction of
58:22
Speaker 4: being the only album which Springsteen and the East Street
58:24
Speaker 4: Band recorded every instrument and vocal live, with only a
58:28
Speaker 4: handful of superimpositions involving guitar solos and handclaps. So Kenneth
58:34
Speaker 4: rollmack You reviewed the album and noted that his most
58:37
Speaker 4: inspired choices are a trio of his earliest songs If
58:41
Speaker 4: I Was the Priest, Janey Needs a Shooter, and Song
58:44
Speaker 4: for Orphans. What stands out to you about those songs?
58:47
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting that he felt like he could
58:50
Speaker 1: go back to them, right, they may not have spoken
58:54
Speaker 1: to him in the same way earlier, and paring them
58:59
Speaker 1: with the years of an older person, he was able
59:04
Speaker 1: to make his return. I you know, as a person
59:10
Speaker 1: who is a reader like Kennon ken is as well,
59:15
Speaker 1: you know, it's like returning to an author and realizing
59:18
Speaker 1: you still as an author, returning to earlier texts and
59:22
Speaker 1: realizing you still have something to say. I think that's
59:24
Speaker 1: where Bruce is. He needs to have a stake in
59:27
Speaker 1: and it needs to be authentic for him to continue
59:30
Speaker 1: doing anything. I don't think I don't know that we've
59:32
Speaker 1: ever had anything from him that wasn't authentic. Right, And
59:39
Speaker 1: those songs and the whole album really is just underscores
59:45
Speaker 1: how much commentary is left in his string.
59:49
Speaker 2: I love those songs. I love that he included them
59:52
Speaker 2: on the album. I think that they are really really
59:56
Speaker 2: nice compliments to his newer stuff and does give you
59:59
Speaker 2: a chance to listen to them with fresh years. And
1:00:02
Speaker 2: I think Ken's right that they they mean something different
1:00:06
Speaker 2: to him now and they mean something different to us
1:00:09
Speaker 2: now based on where we're listening. And I can tell you,
1:00:13
Speaker 2: you know, so, I guess I must be sixty years
1:00:18
Speaker 2: younger than than than Bruce Springsteen. And and to find
1:00:23
Speaker 2: him now and and such some degrees, I feel like
1:00:26
Speaker 2: he's always been addressing things that have had some relevance
1:00:30
Speaker 2: to my stage of life. When he's been writing about
1:00:34
Speaker 2: his stage of life, almost like an older brother passing
1:00:38
Speaker 2: down the wisdom that they've learned to help you navigate
1:00:43
Speaker 2: where you're going. And to find him writing one minute
1:00:46
Speaker 2: you're here and writing ghosts and writing songs about aging
1:00:53
Speaker 2: and death, you know, again, that is such service to
1:01:01
Speaker 2: his listeners. That and that would have I think been
1:01:08
Speaker 2: taboo and like rock, you know, except to like maybe
1:01:13
Speaker 2: glorify you know, dying young or something like that, you know,
1:01:16
Speaker 2: which some songs might have done. But you know, he's
1:01:20
Speaker 2: made it clear he wants to stay here as long
1:01:23
Speaker 2: as he can, and he wants to appreciate every day
1:01:27
Speaker 2: that he has been gifted and he wants to do
1:01:33
Speaker 2: what he does for as long as he can. And
1:01:36
Speaker 2: the fact that he's still touring and performing and still
1:01:39
Speaker 2: you know, involved in new creative projects is a model
1:01:45
Speaker 2: to all of us.
1:01:46
Speaker 4: He turns seventy five on September twenty third. We're recording
1:01:50
Speaker 4: this about five days before his seventy fifth birthday, so
1:01:54
Speaker 4: that answers one of the questions they have. Does Bruce
1:01:56
Speaker 4: still have things to say and express musically? So what
1:01:59
Speaker 4: do you hope he does next?
1:02:01
Speaker 1: I hope he continues to do what he's always done,
1:02:04
Speaker 1: which is to follow his creative energies and see where
1:02:07
Speaker 1: they take him. Right he you know, which is a
1:02:10
Speaker 1: mystery to a certain extent, But it's you know, writing
1:02:13
Speaker 1: or being a musician who's a singer songwriter like Bruce
1:02:17
Speaker 1: is always is endlessly fascinating to me. It's a journey
1:02:22
Speaker 1: that you're taking and for which you'll never really arrive
1:02:27
Speaker 1: at the end point. Right. So it's it's always unfolding
1:02:32
Speaker 1: and I can't wait to see what he does next.
1:02:35
Speaker 2: Twenty one studio albums that we had the pleasure of
1:02:41
Speaker 2: re listening to and analyzing in some depth, and I
1:02:47
Speaker 2: wouldn't have wanted any one of them to be missing
1:02:51
Speaker 2: from his catalog. And I think I'm sure I'll feel
1:02:57
Speaker 2: the same way about whatever he does next.
1:02:58
Speaker 4: Whatever it is, Bruce Song is the music of Bruce Springsteen.
1:03:02
Speaker 4: Album by album, song by song is out now. You
1:03:05
Speaker 4: can find out wherever books are sold and where can
1:03:07
Speaker 4: people find you guys online if people want to reach
1:03:10
Speaker 4: out to you.
1:03:11
Speaker 1: Well, I'm at my website everything fabfor dot com and
1:03:15
Speaker 1: uh Campbell at Monmouth m O N m O U
1:03:19
Speaker 1: t H dot E d U is my email address
1:03:23
Speaker 1: and I'm happy to respond to anyone who wants to.
1:03:25
Speaker 2: Write to me.
1:03:26
Speaker 3: Guys. Thank you so much.
1:03:28
Speaker 2: Thank you. Eric really appreciate it.
1:03:30
Speaker 1: Thank you. That's it. It's in the books.