Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 382 - Confluence Or Coincidence?

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JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 382 - Confluence Or Coincidence? · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

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  Speaker 1: H m.
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  Speaker 2: Repent of any sage's juice, tear up the true down
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  Speaker 2: a rare rab brother junis lamb David very rude, being
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  Speaker 2: the foods in the pure whenness.
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  Speaker 3: It's rainy night ship.
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  Speaker 2: The lights, the breaks, all sides never be ridden, the.
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  Speaker 1: Basting you and the read for your pa to see.
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  Speaker 4: And here we go.
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  Speaker 5: Go out to see Roger.
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  Speaker 4: Yes, thank you Roger for the lovely intro. Welcome everyone in.
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  Speaker 4: It's the Lone Gumer Podcast, Episode three eighty two. We
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  Speaker 4: gotta special guest tonight. And uh, before we get into that,
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  Speaker 4: we're gonna set the table a little bit and then
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  Speaker 4: we're gonna bring our guest on, So Joe, if you will, please, sir,
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  Speaker 4: go ahead and set the table for dinner.
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  Speaker 6: Yes, I will.
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  Speaker 5: And this is when I crashed and me and I'll
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  Speaker 5: say me and the lawyers crashed suitor.
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  Speaker 7: Or Jess Cornell's.
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  Speaker 6: Interview with Ori guest.
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  Speaker 8: Tonight, and it was an emergency exits pretty funny.
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  Speaker 9: So I think that potentially Jack Ruby's.
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  Speaker 1: Path from the Western Union office down the alleyway or
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  Speaker 1: maybe even directly across this lot could have been completely unimpeded.
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  Speaker 1: All that was needed was that door to be left unlocked,
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  Speaker 1: the service elevator to be left in place, which it
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  Speaker 1: was the maintenance workers had done that earlier, and Jack
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  Speaker 1: Ruby could have got into the basement well and truly
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  Speaker 1: in time to be to meet Oswald's transfer.
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  Speaker 9: And yeah, it was right there. So it was we've
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  Speaker 9: got Matt and oh that's so good.
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  Speaker 1: A completely unimpeded journey for Jack Ruby all the way
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  Speaker 1: down to the basement. And I think if we think
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  Speaker 1: about the timing, it could have very easily have done
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  Speaker 1: this in under the four and a half minutes from
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  Speaker 1: the time his receipt was time marked by Doyle Lane
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  Speaker 1: in the Western un Office to when he shot Oswon.
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  Speaker 1: He said eleven seventeen am. And then the exact time
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  Speaker 1: it was eleven twenty one, so more than enough time.
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  Speaker 9: And then the full in some places as well. That's
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  Speaker 9: so cool, God made me.
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  Speaker 7: It looked so short.
• 3:41
  Speaker 9: Marketing, look you down.
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  Speaker 1: So this door was here in nineteen sixty three, clearly
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  Speaker 1: left unlocked, or maybe all it took was for Jack
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  Speaker 1: Ruby to knock on the door and someone to let
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  Speaker 1: him in.
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  Speaker 9: Could have been as easy as that.
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  Speaker 1: Through here, when you look through the glass panels, you'll
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  Speaker 1: see a corridor an elevator back in sixty three that
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  Speaker 1: was a service elevator. This door was a get in
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  Speaker 1: and get out. Probably the length of this rand made
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  Speaker 1: a very sharp right down the stairway out through the
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  Speaker 1: door into the basement. So just like in the movie JFK.
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  Speaker 1: Except he didn't need to be left out let out
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  Speaker 1: down there.
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  Speaker 10: There's a van a wa man basically like TV techs
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  Speaker 10: said that Ruby was milling around before, which would show
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  Speaker 10: that he had pornoledge and was trained.
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  Speaker 1: To do something. Now I want to go shoot together.
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  Speaker 9: So you know where that was it was?
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  Speaker 1: It was parked just out on Commerce Street, so I
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  Speaker 1: think it was across the road and a little bit
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  Speaker 1: towards Harwood Street. That that description I have a bit
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  Speaker 1: of trouble with because I also said that that man
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  Speaker 1: was dressed scruffuly, like he'd slept in that suit. Jack
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  Speaker 1: Ruby was a meticulous dresser, So that was only kind
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  Speaker 1: of a more of a convenient kind of statement that
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: was made after the fact, I think because Jack Ruby
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  Speaker 1: at the same time that was about eight o'clock that
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  Speaker 1: Sunday morning, Jack Ruby was also at home in his apartment,
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  Speaker 1: apparently asleep. If you believe George Senator, his roommate, and
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  Speaker 1: he'd stayed there until you know, tenth eleven o'clock that morning.
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  Speaker 6: Where was Jack Ruby?
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  Speaker 11: Where did he park with his dog, Shebat in the car?
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  Speaker 1: So I gather it was across the road on Main Street.
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  Speaker 1: So that car park that you see there, that was
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  Speaker 1: there in sixty three as well. Now Jack Ruby had
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  Speaker 1: one of his dogs, and he had thousands of dollars
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  Speaker 1: of cash in his car, his wallet as well.
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  Speaker 5: Of course I asked about dogs.
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  Speaker 1: I think that was kind of part of the ruse
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  Speaker 1: to make it look like he was acting spontaneously. Interesting
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  Speaker 1: because when he was apprehended, I'm pretty sure he said
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  Speaker 1: pretty quickly, my dog is in the car, my wallet
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  Speaker 1: is in the car.
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  Speaker 9: And I think it was.
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  Speaker 1: It might have been Ronald Nelson came out to the
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  Speaker 1: car search too, or maybe Homo Ergain. I'm not sure
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  Speaker 1: that someone from the DPA day came out very quickly.
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  Speaker 1: There was a crack in the window, so at least
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  Speaker 1: the dog could breathe, but they were taking care of
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  Speaker 1: pretty soon.
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  Speaker 11: My thought it was always that, you know, Ruby was
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  Speaker 11: a big hobler, that maybe he was going on a
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  Speaker 11: suicide mission, which essentially this is.
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  Speaker 10: Was Uh, maybe he wanted his last couple of minutes
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  Speaker 10: with his dog as a dog owner, I was going
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  Speaker 10: on a suicide mission. I'd want to spend my glove.
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  Speaker 7: And yes, my dog is named Ruby.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I wondered after a talk the other day, the
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  Speaker 1: whole thereline question, So do you think.
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  Speaker 9: Jack that.
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  Speaker 1: They were and he.
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  Speaker 12: Didn't actually do.
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  Speaker 2: So?
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  Speaker 1: If you have a look at the Bob Jackson photographs
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  Speaker 1: of the famous one of Oswald at the moment he's
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  Speaker 1: been shot, that the hairline of Jack Ruby, it looks.
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  Speaker 9: Like it's a wig. It doesn't match.
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  Speaker 1: It doesn't actually line up with Jack Ruby's hairline in
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  Speaker 1: the in his mug shots.
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  Speaker 9: Now, that's about as far out there as I get.
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  Speaker 1: I don't write too much about that in my book,
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  Speaker 1: but it kind of if that was the case, that
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  Speaker 1: maybe it was someone else that shot Oswald, then you've
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  Speaker 1: got to ask how did Ruby? How was Ruby in
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  Speaker 1: place to to be hauled through the jail office and
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  Speaker 1: taken up to the to the jail.
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  Speaker 8: That's right, yeah, all right, well thank you, oh yeah,
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  Speaker 8: you got it.
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  Speaker 5: Thank you Jess Connell for that introduction, and thank you Paul.
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  Speaker 5: I thought that was a good primer and let's bring
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  Speaker 5: him in, sir.
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  Speaker 4: Yep, without further ado. Returning guests. He was on here
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  Speaker 4: last year, author of Death to Justice by Paul Abbott,
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald, all the way from
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: down Under, and we got a lot of listeners from
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: down Under. The one and only man with the wide stays.
• 8:47
  Speaker 6: I ordered it today.
• 8:50
  Speaker 5: Actually, oh cool.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Guys, and hello to everyone playing at home as well.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: That's good to good. It's really cool. Been looking forward
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  Speaker 1: to this.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you.
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  Speaker 4: Real quick, Joe. Let's acknowledge a little love from the people.
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  Speaker 4: Brandon coming through, dropping a deuced zero on us and
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: then again gifting five memberships, one of them to our
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: friend from down Under. And uh, Paul, if you ever
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: need any carpet, I don't know if you live near
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: Queensland or not, but Anthony Thripp is your man.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: I'm on the outside of the country.
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: Sorry, Oh damn, might he might ship there.
• 9:44
  Speaker 8: You never know, you never know.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: We'll talk Anthony. There you go.
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: Oh man, he did ten memberships. Oh yeah, good lords,
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: thank you appreciate it.
• 10:01
  Speaker 8: Thank you.
• 10:03
  Speaker 6: So Paul.
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  Speaker 4: It's been a while since the book came out and
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: we had you on last time. And I know in
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  Speaker 4: the meantime, you know, you went to Lancer, you went
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: to Dallas, you made the Mecca trip. Had you ever
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: been to Dallas before last year?
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  Speaker 1: I had. It was twenty years ago, two thousand and five.
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  Speaker 1: I went there by myself, and I was much younger
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  Speaker 1: than and didn't know as much about well as much
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  Speaker 1: as I think I know now about the case. But
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  Speaker 1: I think the thing that really startles me and maybe
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: for those out there listening as well, when they first
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: go to like Dearley Plaza, it's really small, and you
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  Speaker 1: know the top of Elm Street and Houston Street is
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: it's kind of in line with the railway overpass, so
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  Speaker 1: that gives you an idea of how steep Elm Street
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  Speaker 1: was where obviously the shots were fired at the President Kennedy.
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  Speaker 5: So I.
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  Speaker 1: I say, as much as I can to people go
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: to Dallas. Do check it out, because you know, reading books,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: you know YouTube and all that kind of stuff's great,
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  Speaker 1: But go there because it is still in the same
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  Speaker 1: configuration except for probably a few layers of tarmac you know,
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  Speaker 1: on the on the road over the years. So yeah,
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  Speaker 1: but I loved Dallas. It was were ten days this
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  Speaker 1: time and you got to really check check out so much,
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  Speaker 1: which was which was really good.
• 11:33
  Speaker 6: Yeah you when you're a fiance correct.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And we went on to to get married in
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Vegas the following week. Really cool. I love I love it,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: I love it good.
• 11:48
  Speaker 12: I didn't have the chance of meeting her, but I
• 11:52
  Speaker 12: did have the benefit of meeting you, and you were
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  Speaker 12: we have like an inside joke here that.
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  Speaker 1: You are.
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  Speaker 7: A fine meat.
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  Speaker 12: And now because you're tall, you're handsome, you're kind and
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  Speaker 12: I really enjoyed meeting.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: You, so thanks, Thanks John. Likewise, it was I mean,
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  Speaker 1: you know, you listen to Tony podcasts and you read
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: other people's books and you you know, you see interviews
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  Speaker 1: and things, but that was the first time I actually
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: got to meet people like yourself, market Damn Chick, Scott Read,
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: Andrew Iler, Bill Simpitch, like so many people, Chris Gallup
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: heaps like it's it's kind of surreal, you know, we
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: we're talking now, but there's still nothing better than meeting people.
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  Speaker 1: So yeah, it's really really cool to catch up with
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: you as well. Mate.
• 12:53
  Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, no, you were a really nice guy and
• 12:56
  Speaker 13: we were talking a couple of minutes before the show
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  Speaker 13: of how You gave a bunch of tours, including two
• 13:04
  Speaker 13: members of her show, and yeah.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, shout out to Paula. I'm not sure if she's
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: on the.
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  Speaker 5: She's here somewhere.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Oh cool cool, Yeah, so nice to meet her. She
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  Speaker 1: was a part of the first tour I gave. We
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: literally walked from the Fermont Hotel, which is kind of
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: like mid mid Dallas and a little bit kind of
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: north North in the CBD there, to the to the
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: City Hall and again like Dearly Plaza. It's pretty surreal
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: to go and check that out as well, and it's
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: the exterior is pretty much and it's the same configuration.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Oh here she is, cool.
• 13:48
  Speaker 5: Sweetheart. He gave me a bunch of other old Lee's.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: A Guy tour and Max Good was on that tour
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: as well. I don't if you know Max Good he.
• 14:03
  Speaker 5: Was, Yeah I won't yeah yeah, yeah.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah cool yeah turned along as well into a whole
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: bunch of assimming So, uh, paul, we might we might
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: be in something that Max crats.
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: Nice but it was so good.
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  Speaker 12: Yeah No, but I think it was great that you
• 14:24
  Speaker 12: just like took people around for free, and I don't know,
• 14:30
  Speaker 12: I just think.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: It was great.
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  Speaker 4: Was that the first time, Paul that you know, since
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  Speaker 4: your interest in the Oswald shooting in the basement, that
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: you had been over to City Hall and really checked
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  Speaker 4: it out. I mean, I know you said in two
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  Speaker 4: thousand and five, but like when I went, that wasn't
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: on my That wasn't on my list for whatever reason
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  Speaker 4: to check out. I went to the Tip scene, and
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: of course Daily Plaza and the Texas Theater and the
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: Rooming House and all that stuff. But I just never
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: even entered my mind to go to the City Hall
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: and check all that out. But is that the first
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: time you really since your interest picked in that area,
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: that you really get to check things out first hand?
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: It was I'd walked up Main Street back in two
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: thousand and five, and you know, to try and find
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: where Jack Ruby's Carousel Club was, and back then I
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: didn't even know it was over on Commerce, Like, I
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: just had no idea, But I kind of stumbled across
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: the Main Street entrance where Roy Vaughan was standing, and
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: I still have the photos somewhere with me just taking
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: a photo and then taking that and then turning around
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: and walking back to Delhi Blaza. I think, so, yeah,
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: this trip was the first time I actually got to
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: walk around. Look at that door where we were standing.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: I walk the journey from the Western Union office to
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: the main Street ramp and the way I think Jack
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Ruby did through that side door, and others many others do. Yeah,
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: again surreal, But again it was like I'd already been
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  Speaker 1: there before because I've spent so much time, you know,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: looking at the you know the layout of the building
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: and you know all the all the footage and everything
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: like that. So it's kind of like I was returning
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: having never been there before. It was kind of weird,
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: but yeah, really cool. Couldn't get inside, and that's that's
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: what I really want to emphasize there is it's really
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: flash exhibit inside the immortalizes the site where I was
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: well was let out at the jail office. So that's
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: all all being done up. You can google it and
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: see news articles about it. The jail office, you know,
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: they've got screens kind of playing footage and footsteps showing
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: where Oswald was led to the point where he was
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: shot and where he was shot. There's now like a
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: glass wall that frosts and unfrosts, defrosts if you like,
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: every thirty seconds, so you can see out to the
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: basement where obviously all the you know, the many many
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: throngs of media and cameras were but all this effort,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: that money has been put in to preserve preserve it,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: and you can't get in like you know, you have
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: to be connected to the Act, to the University of
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: North Texas in the pretty significant ways. So one day
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: I will get in there.
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's all. A group of loon nutters got in
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: there because they were they were like checking out Oswald's
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: so that they had to have him in and.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Yep, ye.
• 17:28
  Speaker 10: There.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what you've got to do. You've got to
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: show your idea improves your Yeah, yeah, you go along
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: with the mainstream. Yeah, yeah.
• 17:42
  Speaker 5: Unfortunately, I'm going to bring something up in a second here.
• 17:50
  Speaker 5: Some of the pictures I took.
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: In the meantime, you know, since we had you on
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: last you know, we've been doing deep dives into all
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: kinds of differ and things, and one of them was
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: looking into James Levell and Graves and you know, of
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: course there's a lot of different interviews with those guys
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: and they've said all kinds of different things over the years.
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: I mean, Lavell's been pretty consistent but Graves is kind
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: of all over the place. But yea, you know, one
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: thing that struck out to me is, you know that
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: that final interrogation that morning, you know when Leavell said,
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: you know, it was only supposed to be like forty
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: five minutes long, right, and you know it had Harry
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: Holmes not come over there, that it probably wouldn't have
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: been as long as it was. And then you hear
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: how the interrogation ends, and that's with the knock at
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: the door from Jesse Curry. And it's almost like, you know,
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: if you are conspiracy minded, that this thing was timed out,
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: like all right, Ruby's in place, knock on the door,
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: interrogation's over, It's time to get him out of here,
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: you know, and everything's set up from there, you know,
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: at least to me, I agree, I never knew Curry,
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: you know, knocked on the door was like all right,
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: that's it, time to go type of thing. You know,
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: it was very fluid. You know, they let the press in,
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: or they had told the press that they were going
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: to be transferring at about what ten thirty or so ten.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: O'clock, actually happened at ten o'clock. Yeah, yeah, not itself
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: has been distorted. At the time, it was it was
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: reported literally that weekend that Jesse Curry said the transfer
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: would be happening at ten o'clock. But over the years
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: that kind of distorted. To know him saying, oh, if
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: you arrive here at City Hall, you won't have missed anything.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: You know that that is actually a little bit different.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: So contemporary news report said that. But also Seth Cantor,
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you know of him, the reporter.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: He testified to waking up like late on Sunday morning
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: and it was like twenty to ten in the morning
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: and he thought, I know I've missed or I'm going
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: to miss the transfer because it was he had it
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: as ten o'clock. But of course when he got there,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: the transfer still hadn't taken place and he was able
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: to witness what happened. So absolutely Jesse Curry said at
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: ten o'clock, and I mean talk about just I don't
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: know if it's done or suspicious that he's literally telling
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: whoever was going to you know, was plotting to kill Oswald, well,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: this is when we're going to be ready, So it's
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: it's nuts. But yeah, who told Jesse Curry to knock
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: on the door and say let's go time.
• 21:00
  Speaker 5: Yeah, let me try and share this right now. All right,
• 21:25
  Speaker 5: So this is a selfie taken by Jess.
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: Common Joe's favorite photograph by the way.
• 21:33
  Speaker 5: Yeah, well not my favorite because I'm fucking shorts.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: I'm standing at the top of the ramp there, so
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: that maybe why I'm a little bit wide legged in
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: that particular photo.
• 21:48
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 21:48
  Speaker 5: We we joked that I have a man crush on
• 21:51
  Speaker 5: you because.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: You have such a great accent and and yeah, but
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: Jess Connell takes great selfies. And here with all the lawyers,
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: and this is on the right hand side the alleged
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: spot you think Jack Ruby has entered into m we
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: were waiting for breakfast. I know you talked about this
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: on Out of the Blank recently. Let's see, I.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Think you've got the mind straight ramp entrance next, or
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: could be coming straight. They're pretty much identical from an
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: angle locknot.
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's where Vaughan would have been stationed at one.
• 22:50
  Speaker 9: Of these entrances.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so he was pretty quickly thrown under the bus,
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: as you know, having stepped away from his post at
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: the top of the main street ramp. And that was
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: the alleged opportunity that Jack Ruby took to kind of
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: slip in, if we're looking at that picture now, literally
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: slip in around the corner of that wall and just
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: come on down the ramp. And at the bottom of
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: that ramp where it literally flattens out in the basement
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: is where Jack Ruby or Oswald shooter sprang out from
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: and obviously shot Thoswald. But the thing is Roy Vaughan,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: he never stepped away from his post. He always remained
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: in the middle of that ramp, so pretty much where
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: that photo was taken on the sidewalk right there. The
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: only time he kind of deviated was to let a
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: police car out that was actually coming up the ramp
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: from the basement has been driven by Rio Pierce and
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: it had Billy Joe Maxy seated in the back and
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: James Putnam and Pierce had been instructed to take the
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: car out at the basement and drive it around the
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: block to be the lead car in the convoy to
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: take Oswald to the county jail. So that's how late
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: that the plan changed, because up until that point, like
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: quarter past eleven that morning, I was what was going
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: to be taken in an armored truck, but the Curry
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: and Fritz apparently got together to talk about it, and
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Fritz said, you know what if that actually is an attack,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: you know, because apparently threats were phoned in, and we
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: can get into that a bit later if you want.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: They said, an armored truck would probably be a little
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: bit too. I think it was awkward or cumbersome to maneuver,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: I think were Fritz's words. So the idea was that
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: the armored car would still be used. It would be
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: a decoy.
• 24:44
  Speaker 5: Yeah, why don't you go into the Asian photographer that
• 24:51
  Speaker 5: I have never heard about?
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, Japanese. He was a reporter and I
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: kind of stumbled across a new name for him very recently.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: Had I'm gonna I think I'm going to say it
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: pretty wrong, had had Kikikiki so a Japanese reporter, And
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: that was an article that Dale Myers put out and
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: only November last year. The problem is that the article,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: the references in the article, you can't you can't find them,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: you can't Google them, you can't nothing. There's there's nothing
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: to follow. There are references, but when you literally copy
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: and paste them into Google, nothing comes up. So it's
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: kind of still still unsubstantiated from my perspective, but that
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: reporter is interesting because he was He wasn't the only
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Japanese reporter there that weekend apparently, but he was pretty
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: prolific in like the you know that famous photograph of
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: the press conference that has Ruby in the back, and
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: I think that looks pretty weird anyway, But this Japanese
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: reporter is also standing there the yeah, yeah, so the
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: midnight press conference, and then this Japanese reporter is literally
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: standing in front of where Jack Ruby was before he
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: came out and shot Oswald down in the basement. Now
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: this this new article, apparently it says that this Japanese
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: reporter was about to take a camera a photograph not film,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: as well as he was being let out, but he
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: he wasn't able to because the shot happened. I don't
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: kind of buy that, because when you watch the footage
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: he's actually got he's holding his camera up for a
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: fair period of time all well, and truly long enough
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: to get a good shot of Oswald. But apparently he
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: kind of bought to doing it because he'd already taken
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: pizza photos of Oswald. Anyway, He's an interesting one. Because
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: in the Dallas police investigation he was just he was
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: referred to as the unknown Japanese order. Yeah, so.
• 27:04
  Speaker 5: I had never heard of him before.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and he was able to That's the other thing,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: like when the armored truck has reversed into position. You know,
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: we've got that footage of it's KRLD TV footage which
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: actually started up on Commerce Street, and I think it
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: was Gene Paschalk who was filming and before it cuts
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: down to one of the cameras in the basement that
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: would ultimately film Oswald's shooting. And you can see in
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: the footage up on Commerce Street that this Japanese reporter
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: and a few others just easily, so easily slip down
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: past the armored truck haven't even been checked for ID.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: Maybe they were before that point, I don't know, but
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: people are just coming and going out of the ramp,
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: you know, at a time when Oswald's transfer could literally
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: start at any moment. Yeah, that there is the guy
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: in the middle owner just and I might be lighting
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: a bit of a fire here, but the guy in
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: the middle looks like he's just been dropped in, you know,
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: the the chap there, not with the camera and the
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: white shirt, but the one behind him, he kind of
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: looks like he's just been very He was a reporter,
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: like there someone Linda Gibana Zamberini has identified him, and
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: I forget his name. He was from Fort Worth, so
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: it's a real person and apparently was there, but just
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: looking looking looking at that he kind of I don't know,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: it just looks out of proportion. Anyway, question everything people, Yeah,
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: that's that's what we do. The Graves. You guys mentioned
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: Graves a little bit and the child weeks ago, and yeah,
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: I was sorry to jump in on the comments and
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: kind of yeah, really you know, I went pretty hard.
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: Sorry, No, we appreciate it.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: It was it was really good that you were talking
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: about people like Graves. Because an undated unsigned statement of
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: his that's in the Dallas Police investigation says that Oswald
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: was as soon as he was shot, he was immediately
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: placed into an ambulance and rushed off to hospital. And
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: that's not what happened. We can all see that Oswald
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: was not rushed away at all immediately. It was probably
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: a good four four or five minutes before you know,
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: he was loaded into an ambulance and finally scuffuzled off
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: to Parkland And how does that fit.
• 29:51
  Speaker 5: Scaffoozled.
• 29:52
  Speaker 6: I like that, Yeah, but I wanted to ask you, so,
• 30:01
  Speaker 6: what do you think about.
• 30:06
  Speaker 14: Oswald having chess compressions when obviously that wasn't the right.
• 30:19
  Speaker 5: Term our right pro seizure? Mm hmmm, considering his AH situation, like,
• 30:32
  Speaker 5: what do you what do you think about that?
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think the Dallas police could have
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: done anything more to lessen Oswald's chances of surviving than
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: what they did. Now, because he was being led to
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: a car, why wasn't he just put in that car,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: the armor truck, get out of the way, and just
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: rush him straight off to hospital. That's not what happened.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: Instead what they did, And you know, probably in the
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: cold light of day, it's easy to you know, be
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: super analytical about it, but in the moment, it might
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: have been a protection thing to just get him, whisk
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: him away into the doal office. But the suspicious part
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: of me thinks that he was taken back there to
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: basically be either finished off or mistreated you so he
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: would not survive. So the mistreatment comes with Fred Weiberdorff,
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: who was the first aid attendant.
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: If for a car and got him to the hospital,
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: you know, instead of for an ambulance.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: I mean exactly an ambulance. Like literally back then, ambulances
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: were like your wagons with only two seats. But that's
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: literally all they were. It's not like the ambulances of today,
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: where I've got everything in there to provide proper first treatment.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: It was just literally a car to get people to hospital.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: That bit quicker, that's all. So yeah, literally he just
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: put him in a car getting to the hospital. He
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: might have stood a chance, but no, he wasn't. And
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: what happened was I think Rue Oswald was taken into
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: the jail office first and then Ruby was and it
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: was all you know, within like eleven seconds of the shooting,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: like it's just a swarm of people and then they're gone,
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: like it's you know, they've just been engulfed and taken away.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: Poor Oswald though he was only seen to by two people,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Leavell because Leavell was handcuffed to him so kind of
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: had to and Billy Combast, who was standing literally behind
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: level at the time of the shooting. So I kind
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: of you know, Oswald fell parallel to the you know,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: the way the basement was running and he was apparently
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: picked up and taken to the jail office. But even
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: even Dallas police detectives get that wrong. James Ramsey said
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: he was put on a stretcher and taken into the
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: jail office. Again, I didn't I don't see any stretcher
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: in the footage, So what the hell was watching? What
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: was taken away? And then Ruby was taken in completely
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: out of sight of all the media, Like you just
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: could not see anything going on. James Davidson, the cameraman
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: who was actually standing behind the shooting, he's filming through
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: the window as he had done when Oswald was brought
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: out of the elevator and through the jail office to
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: start transfer. You just see people standing around looking down
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: at the kind of the back of the jail office
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: on the floor. So Fred Bieberdorf was the first aid
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: attendant who in his first statement to the FBI, he
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: said it took him several minutes to get to the
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: point of where the shooting happened to work out that
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: whoever was shot was not there anymore. So then he
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: knew to go to the jail office, which is stupid
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: because he was like literally in the standing where those
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: doors were behind the shooting, so as busy as it was,
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: it wouldn't have taken anyone several minutes to get through
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: the crowd to that point. So he's discredited himself there.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: From the start, Dallas police didn't even talk to him
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: in their investigation. That's a little bit weird. And when
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: he finally got into ce Oswald, he couldn't hear a heartbeat,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: so that's why he said, I'd better do chest compressions.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: It might not have hurt a heartbeat because it was
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: so anointy in there, so he couldn't feel a pulse either,
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: So that he did the worst thing that anyone could do.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: But him being shot through the abdomen or chest is
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: you know, so.
• 34:36
  Speaker 7: Whoa when you think of motive, like what is the
• 34:46
  Speaker 7: the impulse to two maybe crush Lee's chest.
• 34:58
  Speaker 5: Itself?
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: He was he was a training yeah he was. He
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: was still learning like he was a student. But that's
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know, that's a common sense thing, like it's
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: just done. So if it was, if it was you know,
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: his error, like a legitimate era because he's a student
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: and was still learning at that time, then that's one explanation.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: Or it was done to be worse than whatever Oswald's
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: wound was and make sure that he didn't survive. I
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: think it could have been that as well, and he
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: could have been pressured to do it Fred Bieberdorf, because
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: again he was he was like twenty five at the time,
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: he was a student. He was literally being stood open
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: by you know, the heavy Dallas police personnel. They could
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: have told him to do it, and whatever their motive was. Well,
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: what I said earlier, I think I think I realised
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: the cloud. I don't think the plan relied on how
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: good a shot Jack Ruby or whoever it was was.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: I think the plan hinged on how Dallas police reacted,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: and they reacted by getting him out of there and
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: doing god knows what to Oswald in the jail office.
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: Yep. Just talk a little bit about the the threats
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: that were called in and made some people think that
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: Jack Ruby may have called in his own threat to
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: try to prevent him from having to kill as Waller
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: type of thing.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's Billy Grammar. And yeah, I put out an
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: article on my sub stack in the middle of last
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: year because the Billy Grammer thing. I don't know if
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: you guys know too, much about it, but we only
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: ever had Billy Grammer's word to go on with that.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: Now that doesn't mean it's not true, but when you
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: don't have like I guess what we call contemporary reporting
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: or corroboration, and you know, you've got to really work
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: to prove that it was true. So the deal with
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: Billy Grammer was he spoke with Henry Hurt in nineteen
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: eighty four, so twenty years after the assassination. NEI there
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: was no mention before that anywhere. Mark Lane never picked
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: up on it, The Warren Commission never mentioned it. The
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: FBI didn't know about it. Otherwise they would have been
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: all over Billy Grammer with a story like that, because
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: they were really working really hard during that immediate aftermath
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: to find any connections to Dallas police personnel and Jack Ruby.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: So they would have been like all over all over
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: Billy Grammer with that story if it happened. So Henry
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: Hurt broke the Billy Grammer's story in his book. I
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: forget what it's called now reasonable doubt. I think it's
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: called or something. And I actually reached out to Henry
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: Hurt to find out, you know, how did you tell
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: me about Billy Grammer and how you came across that story,
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: And unfortunately he wasn't able to give me too much
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: information as to how he came across it. But anyway,
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: the story guys that Billy Grammer was working on the
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: phones like in the dispatch across the night of twenty
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: third twenty fourth November, and a call came in that
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: one of the female dispatch operators took and this caller
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: allegedly said, who's who's there? I want to I want
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: to speak to someone I know, And there's this dispatch
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: officer who has never identified rattled rastled off the names
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: of the police personnel that were working the phones as well,
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: and when she said Billy Grammer, the caller said, I
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: I'll speak to him. So Billy Grammer gets on the
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: gets on the line, and this person says, there's going
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: to be an attempt on Oswald's life if he's transferred tomorrow.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: Don't you know you've been warned? Bill? Billy Grammer said
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: that he tried to ask a few more questions to
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: kind of qualify what he was hearing, but he didn't
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: get anything more. But he said that the voice seemed
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: recognizable to him, but he couldn't place it anyway. There
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: was a this is Grammar's story. He said that he
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: got reported, instantly reported what he'd just heard and the
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: notes that he'd taken down to someone named Lieutenant Henry Putnam.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: And they they thought it, thought it was obviously a
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: really strange thing. So they crafted they wrote a memo,
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: or Billy Grammer wrote basically a quick affi davi to
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: give to Jesse Curry. Problem was, there was no Lieutenant
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: Henry Putnam on Dallas Police personnel records at the time.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: There was a did an acting inspector or Inspector Henry Putnam,
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: who you know, when think about the hierarchy, why would
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: he be working the phones, you know on a Saturday
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: Sunday night. He's like the third in charge of Dallas Police.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: So and he died in like nineteen seventy eight, so
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: he couldn't even come out in eighty four and corroborate
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: the you know, Billy Grammer. What Billy Grammer said was right.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: So the only other possible person was apart from the dispatch,
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: was Jesse Curry, but he died in nineteen eighty as well,
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: and he never mentioned anything about receiving this call. So
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: Billy Grammer, we just have no corroboration, no corroboration. Over
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: the years, it's come in that, you know, he even
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: caught up with Jack Ruby the day before for a
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: coffee or that night depending on what you read, and
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: when the shooting happened, and it was reported that Jack
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: Ruby was the shooter, he went, Ah, that's who I
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: spoke to last night. That's who called. So that's Billy
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: Grammer's story, and it's kind of been one of these
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: things that's been leaned on by pretty much all researchers
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: to prove that Jack Ruby had some foreknowledge and was
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: trying to get out of this horrible assignment he was
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: tasked with doing or whatever, which is compelling, but sorry,
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: doesn't work with Billy Grammar. Like we've only got his
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: word to rely on. So the other threats that actually
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: seem a little bit more legitimate actually started with the
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: FBI that night. So the story goes, and I write
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: about this as well. The story guys that are around
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: about two o'clock, Vernon Glossop, who was like a clerk
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: for the FBI office in Dallas. This is the Saturday
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: Sunday morning, gets a call from a gruff sounding white
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: male who said, if you transfer Oswald, he's going to
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: be killed. So Vernon Glossop gets writes down these notes
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: and he lets the agent in charge at the time,
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: a guy by the name of Milton Newsom, know about
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: this threat call that had just come in. So Milton
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: Newsom gets on the phone to the Sheriff's office and
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: asks them. He speaks to Deputy Sheriff McCoy and asks
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: him have you had any threat calls come in tonight?
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: And Deputy McCoy said, yeah, actually we have. This is
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: what was said. And so it turns out between them
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: they've worked out that they've both been who could have
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: been contacted by the same threat maker, someone who was
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: calling on behalf of a committee saying that we have
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: voted to kill Oswald during his transfer. About ten minutes later,
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: Deputy McCoy receives another call, and this time from someone
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: else who asks if it's the Sheriff's office and then
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: says wait a minute, and put someone else on the
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: line to basically give the same threat. And in the meantime,
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Newsom and McCoy both separately contact the Dallas Police to say, hey,
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: we've had a threat come in. Have you heard anything?
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: They spoke with Captain William Frasier, who was like the
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: night to Captain so he would have known if anything
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: like the Billy Grammar call came in, but Fraser said
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: to both of them, no, We've not had any calls
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: come through threatening Oswald's life, so they Fraser actually attempts
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: to respond to the threats, though, despite never receiving or
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: the ODPD receiving any direct threat calls. He gets on
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: the phone to Captain Fritz and says, hey, we've got
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: a threat on Oswold's life. We should the transfer should
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: take place. We should just do it now, I think,
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: and Fritz says, not my call. You need to speak
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: to Chief Curry because it's his business. So Fraser tries
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: to call Chief Curry at home, but his phone lines
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: aren't working, apparently miraculous, and eventually it takes an officer
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: to drive out to Curry's house to let him know
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: about these threats. By now, it's about six o'clock in
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: the morning, and all Chief Curry does to respond to
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: that is I don't do anything. Just tell the Sheriff's
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: Department and the FBI. I'll call them when I get
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: into the office at about eight point thirty in the morning.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: That's literally it's all laid out in Warren Commission testimony
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: and everything like that. The thing is, though, getting back
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: to Milton Newsom, the FBI agent who kind of was
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: right at the start of this committee threat being made.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: He was the FBI agent that came back around and
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: interviewed Deputy McCoy and Captain Fraser, and Deputy McCoy gave
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: a three page statement to the Sheriff Bill Dekker, which
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: basically outlines what I've just told you, and he took
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: a statement from Fraser as well. When Fraser's looking at
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: it in the Warren Commission, He's saying, I didn't say that.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: So Newsome is kind of he was at the start
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: of the narrative, and he was kind of at the
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: end of controlling the way the narrative kind of was
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: set in the record by manipulating Fraser's statement. I think
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: he put words in Fraser's mouth to the degree of
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: like Fraser said that he knew about the transfer plans
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: and that he thought that they were not not the
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: right way of going about it. When Frasier didn't have
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: any idea about what the transfer plans, because Jesus Christ,
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: the Dallas Police Department at that particular point in time
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: had no idea about the transfer plans either. So it's just,
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: you know, this whole threat episode, it's again another one
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: of those little things that kind of obviously probably doesn't
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: have too much significance on things, but you know, when
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: you really get down into the detail, it's again, it's dodgy.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: It's incredibly dodgy, and I think I'm sorry I've gone
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: on for a big tangent here, but i'll wrap this
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: point out the I think the FBI, but at the
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: very least, exploited this threat call coming in to undermine
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: the Dallas Police and basically take try and take all
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: control of Oswald and the investigation out of their hands.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: And of course the shooting happened, and that's that's that's
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: what happens. You know, the DPD moved out of place,
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: the FBI swung in with their investigation, which as we know,
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: dovetailed into the warrant commission. So I'm not saying the
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: FBI will behind the shooting of Oswald, but Jesus Christ,
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: they capitalized on it, and I think they did a
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: little bit to really undermine Chief Curry and the police
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: and in terms of their you know, the way they
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: were handling Oswald in custody with the press being all
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: over Dallas City Hall and Chief Curry telling the police,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: telling the media that this is when we're going to
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: transfer Oswald tomorrow morning. Everyone come back, so sorry if
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: you are.
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: They paid for that EPD, you know, to the FBI.
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: For years afterwards, the FBI refused to train them for
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: a long time until I actually saw a document today
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: from nineteen sixty eight. I believe that was the first time.
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: It took him five years for the FBI to send,
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: you know, trainers down to to Dallas to actually do
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: anything with the Dallas Police. And the document I saw
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: was was a letter to j Edgar Hoover and it
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: was signed by every Dallas cop and it was thank
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: you so much, uh for for the you know, for
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: for the training session.
• 47:26
  Speaker 5: You know.
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: The two guys that came down here were great. They
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: they were very informative, you know, it was it was
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: you know, we learned a lot and it was so
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: awesome and you know, sincerely every cop on the forest.
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: And they made him sign it and print their name,
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: and I was like, wow, back with Hoover, there.
• 47:47
  Speaker 9: He was.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: He was pissed off with how Carry was going about you,
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: because there's that that whole little episode as well where
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: Carry came out and said to the press, we didn't
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: know what was in town. Normally, the FBI tells us
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: when communists subversives are in town, but we didn't know
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: this time, and that really pissed off Hoover, like to
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: the point where people like Jerry O'Leary, the reporter was
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: swung in to talk to Curry and say, you need
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: to retract that, and he did, and so I think
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: that really really the relationship soured thereafter.
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I know, well, host he got blemed for that,
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: you know from his conversation with Jack Revel. It kind
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: of got out of hand and that's when Curry made
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: that statement and then had to retract it. But let's
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: talk a little bit about Jerry O'Leary. Who was this guy?
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: What news organization was he from?
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was with the Washington Evening Star back in
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: the day. Really interesting guy. So he came up through
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: the Washington Evening Star. He served during World War Two
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: with the Marines and up until like the late seventies
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: at least he stayed with them in the reserves. So yeah,
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: he's he was also another marine anyway, he was like
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: an establishment stooge, he was. The FBI really rated him
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: like he was. He was. I wouldn't say he was
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: like a paid informant or anything, but a joe you
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: all right? Yeah, he So. Jerry Leary he was in
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: Dallas at the time to cover the weekend. He was
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: reporting back to the FBI, and so he was brought
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: in on that Curry matter to actually write up a
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: piece that had Curry walking back these statements about the FBI.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: But then come to the actual day of the shooting,
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: Jerry Leary was in the basement to witness the shooting.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: But the after, the day after Oswald was shot, it
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: was Jerry Leary that put out the piece where it
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: was said that Oswald called out for the A C.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: L U up on the third floor. No one else
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: corroborated that, but Jerry Leary had it in this article.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: This is where I'm going to go and get into
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: another tangent that was that was put in place to
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: make Oswald look like a communist. And I think Jerry O.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: Leary with his FBI contacts, which are evidentially clear that
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: weekend was tasked with putting out this article straight away
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: now that Oswald was dead, to say, yep, communist loan nuts.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: So he was part of establishing the narrative.
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: Was he died by an a c l U representative
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: while he was in jail.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: No, he wasn't.
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: No I thought I thought I had heard that and
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: that he refused.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: No. That well, that's another The Dallas Civil Union were
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: there and were some of them were at the midnight
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: press conference, but they were kind of turned away and said, no, Dallas,
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: Oswald has refused a lawyer, and he said if he
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: needs one, he will probably reach out to the Communist
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: Party or something like that. So they tried to contact him,
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: but they were told he wasn't. He didn't want them
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: like he wasn't, wasn't film it. So, yeah, but Oswald
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: never called out for the ACLU at the start of
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: the transfer. You know, all the reporters that were apparently
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: up there the police, no one corroborated that. So Jerry
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: O'Leary was the one that started that in his article
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: the day after Oswald was shot. The thing is, though,
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: what Jerry Leary didn't didn't count on was that he
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: was captured in footage coming out of the basements walkway
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: with like pappus like fifteen seconds before Oswald was shot.
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: And the thing is was that couldn't because he was
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: seen there. He couldn't have possibly been up on the
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: third floor to then somehow get down from the third
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: floor to be in the basement at the time to
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: be recorded, you know, filmed being in the basement as well,
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: do you know what I mean. So we had to
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: bridge bridge that narrative gap by making up this crazy
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: ass story about how he and two other reporters ran
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: downstairs once Oswald got in the elevator, ran down these
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: stairs which didn't continuously lead to the basement because if
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: they did, they'd be right where Oswald was shot. So
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: in like under fifteen seconds to be able to get
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: down to the basement and then still be there the
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: head of when Oswald came out of the elevator. So
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: this stupid story that Jerry Leary made up to substantiate
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: the acl U claim that he attributed to Oswald up
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: on the third floor and then it was this kind
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: of tells you how the FBI worked back then. Was
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: Ike Pappus and Maurice Carroll, the two reporters that Jerry
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: Leary kind of tied into his bullshit stairs story there
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: there there. Their testimonies don't line up with that. You know,
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: Ike Pappus, when he spoke to the FBI the first time,
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: he doesn't even mention being up on the third floor.
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: He was down in the basement the whole time. But
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: then he slowly changes his story because he's clearly clearly
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: been told or worked out that Jerry O Leary has
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: tied him to this bullshit racing this the elevator using
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: stairs story. So that was Jerry O. Leary, he was.
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: He was instrumental in getting the FBI narrative, sorry, the
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: lone nut narrative out there. But I'll tell you another
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: really interesting thing. He was also reported as meeting a
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: CIA man in Dallas who was an unimpeachable source in
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: the in the aftermath of the shooting, and this CIA
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: man told Jerry Leary in Dallas that Oswald came back
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: from Mexico the previous month with five thousand dollars cash.
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that was the I think that was the Alvarado story, right,
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: that it eventually did come out.
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it was it was, yeah, very similar to that. Absolutely.
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: I think that was. You know, if we can speculate
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: that that CIA man was probably David Atlee Phillips because
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: obviously he was all over disinformation on Oswald, but also
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: the whole Mexico City chapter. The thing is, Jerry O'Leary
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: and David at Lee Phillips were friends and they went
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: back to Chile in nineteen fifty three.
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: It makes sense too that the CIA would have some
• 54:24
  Speaker 4: pawns in place in their local you know media, you know,
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: even the print press and you know the national scene
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: as well. But definitely if he's with the was it
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: the Washington Evening Star, Yeah, chances are you know, he's
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: probably mocking Bird through and through.
• 54:44
  Speaker 8: You know.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: So there was an article in like October nineteen seventy seven,
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: Rob Woodward did it, No, sorry, I think it was Bernstein,
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: Benstein or Woodward, one of them came out and wrote
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: an article for The Rolling Stone that named Jerry areas
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: being an asset with Operation Mockingbird, with Central America, you know,
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: with Central American focus. So it all kind of ties
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: up to this clear narrative that was put in place
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: to make Oswald look like a loan nut. But then
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: time to obviously Mexico City and being paid by whoever
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: to to kill Kennedy. And I think that was the
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: JFK assassination plotter's plan was to to. They didn't care
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: if Oswald it looked like Oswald the shooter had fellow
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: shooters in Dalton Dearly Plaza. They didn't care if it
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: if the Oswald loan nut narrative stuck, or you know,
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: if you know, people clearly saw shots from different directions
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: in Dearly Plaza. Their aim was to basically paint the
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: government into a corner to either go into full out
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: retaliatory action against Cuba and the Soviets for President Kennedy's
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: assassination or cover it up. Well we know what happened.
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: The warrant commission was brought into place a week later
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: and the cover up started therein. But yeah, o' larry man,
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: he was all over it. He with that scoop that
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: he got from the CIA. Man, he was he was
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: going to write the story and he was going to
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: put it out. But before he did that, he flagged
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: it with the FBI. The FBI passed it onto the
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: White House and the State Department. And I think that
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: was the little little thing that happened in Mexico that
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: Lyndon Johnson used to guilt Bill Warren into heading up
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: the Warrant Commission. Yeah.
• 56:52
  Speaker 4: Certain, certainly a believable story, for sure, Paul, we came
• 56:57
  Speaker 4: across an interesting document a couple of weeks ago, and
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: it's something that I had never heard before, and it
• 57:07
  Speaker 4: kind of told the story of an arrest that happened
• 57:12
  Speaker 4: with a young man who was arrested after fleeing the
• 57:17
  Speaker 4: basement after Ruby shot Oswald. Now I know that, you know,
• 57:22
  Speaker 4: there's no debating whether or not Ruby shot Oswald. I mean,
• 57:25
  Speaker 4: it happened in front of a lot of people, you know,
• 57:28
  Speaker 4: but somebody, this young kid ended up running and they
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: chased him and arrested him. I don't think anything turned
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: out of it, but it's just one of those odd,
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: weird things that happened. Did you ever hear about that.
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a yeah, young African American man. So
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: James Putnham, who I mentioned earlier. He was in the
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: car that was driving around the block at the time
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: of the shooting to get into position as the lead convoy.
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: He and I think it was a detective Reynolds were
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: the two police personnel that chased down this this young
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: young man. I think it was on the like the
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: second floor of the.
• 58:10
  Speaker 9: Hall.
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: He wasn't no, no, no no.
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: I think there was initial kind of confusing, like you
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: know with that happened in the basement as well, But no,
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: there's no other record of it taking of actually happening
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: in the basement. I think Putnam ran past people like
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: Jeene Barnes, who was like a cameraman that was out
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: on Commerce Street who come from the basement just before
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: I was robber shot, got up to Commerce Streets and
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: I think he made mention of seeing seeing this chase
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: happen or start. But no, there was nothing, nothing much
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: more to it than that. But yeah, I've just seen
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: a comment i'd run if I heard a gun go
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: off too. That's a fair point. I don't think he
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: was in the basement.
• 58:58
  Speaker 4: I didn't do it. I didn't do it.
• 59:02
  Speaker 14: No.
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: I think it was named as well. Did you come
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: across that name?
• 59:07
  Speaker 4: But I don't remember what it was, to be honest,
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: I don't have it in my book.
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: I'd write about that episode, but I don't think I
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: have the guy's name, but it's out there.
• 59:17
  Speaker 4: Nice, nice, Well, Paul, if you, if you, if you
• 59:21
  Speaker 4: could make sure to throw out where people can find
• 59:24
  Speaker 4: your sub stack and get through most up to date ratings.
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no worries. It's well yeah, either Paul Abbott
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: or Dallas City Hall basement, it's out there. I've not
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: put anything up there since kind of towards coming up
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: to the conference last year. But what I what I
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: had subsequently done was I did like a bit of
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: a I guess you'd call it a limited podcast or
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: book cast where I'm literally going through my you know,
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: the chapters of my book. It's just me talking. I
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: had a couple of guests on for like the early
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: you know, to talk about the Oswald context, to talk
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: about November twenty second, Johnny Cann's, Paul Blow. Yeah, a
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: few people like that, Scott read about the Walker shooting.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: But then the rest of it is me basically talking
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: about what I've written in my book and I go
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: into a little bit more detail. So check that out
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: at Spotify. You probably say, yeah, it's on podcasts, it's
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: you don't get to see me. It's just audio. It's
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: good thing. And it's on Spotify, Apple podcasts and things.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: But I just wanted out there because that's the thing, like,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: you know, doing those tours. You know, I'm not going
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: to charge people who are interested, you know, we just
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: want I just want people to be get a little
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: bit more interested in this case because I've rattled on
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: about a whole bunch of stuff, you know, very very easily,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: and there's so much more to it. You know, there's
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: so so much more to it. You know. We talk
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: about Daily Plaza as being a really interesting crime in
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: the Ambassador Hotel, the Lorraine Motel. Turns out the City
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: Hall basement. It was a really really interesting crime scene
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: where a lot a lot of shit happened. You know.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: Blackie Harrison, he's another one, like, oh my god, that
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: guy you know the cigar, Yeah, having a tope on
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: his cigar as he's trying to stop Ruby shooting as well.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: Like it's just that all these little stories, you know,
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: let's let's get focused on it because maybe who knows,
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: like seriously, what what what could potentially be linked link
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: back to link back to November twenty second. Yeah, it's
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: it's it's huge, you know. And then there's the whole
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: question about whether Jack Ruby really was the shooter. You know,
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: if we want to open that can of worms, there's evidence,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: there's evidence to suggest he might not have been.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I've heard the rumors. Unfortunately the original source I'm
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 4: not a fan of.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, can I name him more.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: So?
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: Ralph sink he he is that how you're talking about
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: So Actually the way he went about it, it's it's
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: it's too much. You've got to you've got to lay
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: the like you said at the top, you've got a
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: set the table and that That's kind of what I've
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: done with my book is it's got okay, before I
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: get to the crazy speculation stuff, I'm going to look
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: through the evidence and I'm going to lay out what
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: is evidentially you know, proven or what, what was what,
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: all the documentation, who was there. I wanted to do
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: all the all the you know, the you know the
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: hard works, you know they're putting together all of the
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: documented evidence. So I did that with the book, and
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: I get a little bit I talk about, you know,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: speculation a little bit and you know, the reasonable questions
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: about whether actually Ruby was the shooter. But Ralph sain, Kay,
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: he just goes straight for the jugular, and I think
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: that puts people off. So I think sometimes it's not
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: what you say, it's how you say it. So now
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: you know, I'll give you guys the scoop I am.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be doing a little bit more work
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: on getting as close to being sure that either Ruby
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: was the shooter or he wasn't, because I'm not tended
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: to either outcome. Like I'm not I'm not going to
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: set out to go to prove that Ruby was try
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: and prove that Ruby was not the shooter. For the
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: sake of it. Again, I want to follow the evidence
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: and see what comes out of it. And I think
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: more people, researchers, investigators need to do that, just follow
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: the evidence, because it turns out it's pretty bloody interesting.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: My book is kind of hopefully it's.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 9: A proof of that.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: When we talk about the evidence about Ruby not being
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: the shooter, I'm still yet to find a good explanation
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: as to why a Dallas police officer covered Jack Ruby
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: or the shooter straight away, like literally a second after
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: the shooting. That was Lieutenant Lewis Miller, So you know,
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: he had a jacket on, so he couldn't have been
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: so quick to act to take his jacket off and
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: then cover Ruby. It's like he was ready, he was waiting,
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: he had for knowledge. That's proof of at least some
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: kind of you know, Dallas police participational for knowledge of
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: what was about to happen, so that that kind of stuff,
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: and I didn't break that. You know, that's the kind
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: of good work that people on the fringes like Ralph
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: and others have done. But again, you need to be
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: you're going to make it palatable. You can't.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 4: He thinks it was FBI agent book out is.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I don't. I don't think so. I
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: don't think so.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 4: To me, that's ridiculous. I mean, I don't think that
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 4: he would have posed as as Jack Ruby. I mean,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 4: that's just something they you know.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: The last thing I've heard is that it might have
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: been Earl Ruby, who looked a lot like Jack Ruby.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: But again I don't. I'm not at that point now
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: where I'm thinking about that. I want to focus on why,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: you know, the shooter and the Bob Jackson photograph has
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: his back hairline looks different to Ruby's in the mud shot,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: and why the sideburns are really quite bushy of Oswald's
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: on the side of Oswald's shooter's face. That's what I
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: want to get down to is really just examine the
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: evidence that we have. And you know, I'm not saying
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: I'm going to prove it either one way or another,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: but you know, there are odd little questions that I
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: think if people just stop to consider, it's just worth
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: doing a little bit more digging into, because what else
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: have we got to lose?
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 4: Exactly, We're going to start thinking out of the box
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 4: if we're ever going to get anywhere with this thing.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 4: I mean, people have been banging away at us for
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 4: sixty years and we're stuck in the mud.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: So outplauded.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 4: You know, we do it every week here, try to
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 4: so good.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: So good. It's so good in the forum that you've
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: got here. You guys have got a really, really, really
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: learned audience. And you know, so it's the testament to
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: what you guys talk about and who you have on
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: and you know, the content that you cover, how deep
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: you get into it, got to keep it going, have
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: to have to otherwise otherwise they'll have gotten away with it.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: And while we're talking about it, even now me here
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: in Australia, you in the United States. You know your
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: followers on the chat, the people behind all of this
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: is just a little bit still on the hook, and
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: that's where they need to stay until we can we
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: can reveal as much as possible. I agree.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 4: I agree. Well, folks check out this book. The link
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 4: is the description Death to Justice the shooting Lee Harvey
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 4: Oswald by our buddy Paul Abbott.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: Here.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 4: Paul, thank you so much for coming on and hanging
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 4: out with us this evening. I appreciate you're very knowledgeable.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 4: And uh, I don't know what was going on with Joe,
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 4: but uh, hopefully he's okay. I just decided to get
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 4: him off the screen there and let him do whatever
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: he was doing. But my apologies for for that. But
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 4: thank you again for coming on, Paul. We appreciate it.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 4: And folks in the chat, thanks for hanging out with us.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 4: I think we cracked seventy at one point, Paul. Live viewers.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: Oh that's so cool. Thanks Roun and Rob. Otherwise, that's
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: it's good to talk to you. And and uh yeah,
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: I'll reach out to Joy to wish him well. He
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: was clearly really taught but not very grateful. Thanks mate, all.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 4: Right, Thanks Paul appreciate it, buddy, Yeah, that's the wrong one.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 8: He did not for the record, but he said, come
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 8: to Bourbon Street and I'll show you what I think.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: Folks.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 4: That's it for this week again thanks to Paul Abbott.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 4: Check out his books back, check out his YouTube channel,
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 4: and check out his podcast series on Spotify. Also, his
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 4: book link is in the description let's how to ask
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 4: you These other links to his stuff. That's this video
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 4: kicks up and uh again, thank you so much for
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 4: hanging hours. Had a blast.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: See you.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 4: Remembers only next week Wednesday.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 8: The quotation is Jim against this strange case.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 4: Until then, let's go to the.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 4: I hope the people he blessed take advantage of it.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 4: Go back and check out all the previous members only shows.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 4: While you've got the membership that you can, you won't
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 4: regret it. And thank you again, folks. We'll see you
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 4: next time. Peace.