Latest / Wedding Pros who are ready to grow - with Becca Pountney / Avoiding burnout - Interview with Jordan Kentris

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Avoiding burnout - Interview with Jordan Kentris · Wedding Pros who are ready to grow - with Becca Pountney

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Jordan: That will help those situations because then you come
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at it from a place of calm that you can then rationally explain and come
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to a consensus on for a solution.
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Becca: I am Becca Pountney, wedding business marketing expert,
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speaker and blogger, and you are listening to The Wedding Pros
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who are Ready to Grow podcast.
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I'm here to share with you actionable tips, strategies, and real life
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examples to help you take your wedding business to the next level.
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If you are an ambitious wedding business owner that wants to take your passion
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and use it to build a profitable, sustainable business doing what you
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love, then you're in the right place.
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Let's get going with today's episode.
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Today I'm chatting with Jordan Kentris, founder of a good day based in Toronto.
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They offer wedding stationary styling and gifting services.
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Jordan is a true creative and has turned his creative passion
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into a successful business.
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Jordan, welcome to the podcast.
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Jordan: Thank you so much for having me, Becca.
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Becca: It's an absolute pleasure.
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So you are based out in Toronto, in Canada.
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Have you lived there forever?
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Jordan: Pretty much . I grew up in actually Vancouver in BC, so
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I've got the whole cross Canada.
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Becca: We love it when we have people from North America on the podcast.
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So I have to ask you about where you live because US Brits are fascinated
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about all parts of North America, and I have actually been to Toronto
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once, so I've been up the Sien Tower.
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Jordan: Oh, very cool.
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I mean, we still use British spelling, so it's like we're twins.
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Becca: Yeah, we, we love a bit of, the Canadian culture in the uk.
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Okay, so let's get back to what we're supposed to be talking
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about, which is weddings.
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So let's go right back.
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I would love to know before we dive into a bit more detail, how you ended up in
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the wedding industry in the first place.
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Jordan: I worked in advertising and was feeling a bit tired and and
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exhausted being on the computer all day, and I needed to start
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working with my hands again.
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I did a lot of art growing up and painting and crafting and all those
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kinds of things, and I actually started making paper jewelry.
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my husband was at the time obsessed with broaches, so I started making broaches
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and then my brother, Got engaged and I was like, oh my gosh, I would love
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to make your wedding invitations.
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And that was a bug that got bit, the jewelry died off and then the
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wedding invitations kind of exploded.
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Becca: So did you take a leap straight out of advertising or did you kind
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of build up the business on the side?
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Jordan: On the side.
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I actually kept up both of them because for me it actually to
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me makes me a stronger designer.
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In the advertising side, I do user experience design, so a
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lot of human-centered design.
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From an empathy perspective, I do a lot of research and day-to-day job is
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wireframes, so structures for websites, and so for me, it helps me when I think
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of the guest experience and how do.
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Map through what a person goes through when they experience an event, what are
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the touchpoints from invitation all the way through to the end of the event.
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And so I use a lot of the same thinking that I do on a big brand's
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website as I do in an event, which is, you know, for me it's fun.
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A lot of people you're like, what?
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But I like it.
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Becca: Yeah, it's a really interesting kind of coming
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together of two different parts.
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Business because we see in the wedding industry, people are really creative
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on the whole, people start the business because they are passionate about
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their creativity, which is exactly what you've said, but then they feel
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like they can't be good at the business side of it, which you are saying you're
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kind of marrying the two together.
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So what are some of the pitfalls you see in the wedding industry
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with these creative type businesses?
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Jordan: Oftentimes, they are coming from a place of their own needs,
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and so sometimes we don't always.
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Understand exactly what our clients are looking for.
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We think we know what they're looking for.
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So we market to that and we position ourselves to that.
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And so one thing that I've kind of honed on over the past few years as I've
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kind of merged my two worlds together more succinctly was doing a bit more
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research and understanding how my consumer finds me and who my clients
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are and where they shop, and all those things so that I can market to them
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in ways that are relevant to them.
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Versus how I think they want to be marketed to and how they wanna be sold
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to, and how they wanna be designed to.
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So for me, that's an area that I see a lot of professionals tend to be
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like, well, I like the color pink, so my clients like the color pink.
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And so I'm just gonna keep pushing that.
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And you know, it doesn't always work.
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Becca: So how do you think they can overcome that?
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Is it market research?
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Is it investigating?
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Jordan: It's definitely investigating.
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It's having those conversations with your previous clients, your existing
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clients, your prospects, even.
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It doesn't have to be a like one hour interview.
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Just even a couple questions can go a really long way, and just getting a
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little bit of insight and kind of bringing that relationship a lot closer quicker.
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Oftentimes people do onboarding conversations, but it's typically
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like, what do you want your data look like and all that stuff, which is
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wonderful and absolutely necessary.
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But for me, I think it's really valuable to be like, tell me
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about a childhood memory that is gonna be impacting your event.
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And how did you two decide on the theme of the event?
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For me, from a design perspective, like, well, what do you like about it?
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Are you referencing art Deco because you love New York?
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Or things like that in the work.
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And I start pulling from, Design references that aren't super
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literal within those conversations.
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Becca: So digging a little bit deeper and trying to pull a little bit more
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information out of the couple in front of you rather than just doing the basics.
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Absolutely.
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Okay.
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So I have a lot of creatives in my world, and I know that there'll be
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some listening they're coming into my mind now who work in stationery,
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who work in styling and all those beautiful things that you do as well.
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But I know that one of the things they struggle with is that they work really
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hard for very little money, and it's like they feel like they just can't charge
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their worth for what they're doing, and so they're just working all the
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hours and barely bringing in an income.
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Like what would you say to those people?
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Jordan: I've been there for a number of years.
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Things are a lot better now because I've started again, applying my advertising
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side of my brain to my creative side.
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And oftentimes in the advertising world, we charge an hourly rate.
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We have a very defined scope, and by that it would be, you know,
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we're gonna be doing two rounds of revisions, three concepts.
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Set number of pieces, set number of hours, and that is very defined.
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And we're like, no problem client, we're gonna come back to you for more money.
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But for some reason, when it comes to events, oftentimes we're like, well, I
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don't want to go back to them and ask for more money if this costs me more money.
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But we didn't have that agreement in place.
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And so oftentimes we're conflicted in asking for what we're worth.
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I've also started charging a creative fee because I'm like, hello, that's my brain.
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I.
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Mark up my invitations to the point where I'm doing something basic, but it costs
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$50 an invitation because they're gonna be like, why does it cost $50 an invitation?
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And I'm like, well that's because I wanna get paid what I'm worth.
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So I've just made the paid what I'm worth conversation a lot easier
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because then they're like, oh yeah, that's 10 hours of your time.
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I understand that we're gonna be talking a lot over the next year.
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That doesn't seem like a lot.
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And then the invitations cost what they cost, you know, with whatever markup for
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all the other things that need to happen.
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But to me that is a lot easier of a conversation than when there's
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sticker shock in comparison.
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Cuz oftentimes they're gonna be going to a big box printer or any of those,
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or any other of my competitors and being like, well, they're foil invitations.
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Let's pretend $18 and yours is somehow $40.
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What is different about it?
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And I'm like, well, it's paper . Like you really fall down in that
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conversation and you lose a lot of the bargaining conversation within there.
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I'm not saying I wanna barter my services, but there's less wiggle room when there's.
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No clear way why something is marked up substantially different than another.
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Becca: That's really interesting, and I think a creative fee is a really
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great idea because that is what you're selling, your creativity, your ideas.
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That's something that someone can't copy.
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So if you're listening to this and you've been struggling with this yourself,
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then that could be something to explore.
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Now, another thing that I know these creatives struggle with
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immensely is perfectionism.
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So I look at what they do and I look at what you do, and.
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Think is incredible because I could not design something as incredible
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and as intricate as that, but then they look at it with their eyes and
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say, yeah, but this bit wasn't great.
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This bit didn't go very well.
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How do you, how have you got over that, or how do you deal
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with that in your business?
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Jordan: I've really started to adopt the mantra of, you know,
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done is better than perfect.
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I could spend literally days, doing little, little minutiae, but it doesn't
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bring me any additional revenue.
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It doesn't bring me joy in the sense in the long run, it makes me happy because
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I love that kind of obsessiveness of my.
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But ultimately, if I look at the grand scheme of things, if I'm
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spending that much time, I start making, you know, pennies on the
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dollar for everything I bring in.
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And then when you start factoring that in, you're like, oh, holy cow.
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Like I had a, a project a number of years ago, which I did not price correctly.
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This is my first really big job of that scope.
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and when I sat down at the end of the day, I covered my material costs,
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but I literally made like 2 cents an hour for three months of work.
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And so, you know, it was a very hard experience for me to realize that
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because at the time I loved it and I really wanted to do a great job.
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And.
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You know, make the planner that I was working with really happy
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and proud and excited and we built a really strong relationship.
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But you know, that job also almost cost me my relationship, because I was so
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obsessed over it that I wasn't doing all the other things I needed to be doing.
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There are caveats you have to kind of weigh in, pros and cons.
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There was, you know, other work that I dropped, other clients, sacrifice to
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do those things, and that ultimately impacted some other relationships.
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And so you have to start to balance those, those needs.
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Becca: Yeah, that's some really helpful advice, which brings me
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onto the topic that I really wanted to be talking to you about on the
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podcast today, which is burnout.
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So we are thinking about these creative business owners.
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We've talked about how they're working hard for potentially not very much money.
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They're completely overwhelmed with perfectionism, and then that can lead
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for some of them wanting to just.
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And give up and burn out and fall out of love with what they're doing.
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So when it comes to burnout, how on earth do we even identify it?
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Jordan: For me, it's a few different ways.
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Sometimes I, I experience burnout.
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I experience it usually every couple years, , it just happens.
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It's kind of not inevitable, but when you have practices in
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place that are not healthy, you can tend to overextend yourself.
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For me, it shows up in a couple different ways.
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One is I completely lose focus.
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And so I may be like, well, I should sit down and work on this.
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And then it takes me seven hours to do something that normally takes me
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15 minutes because I'm distracted.
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I'm kind of stuck and I'm trying to just push ideas out, but nothing is
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really coming out and I'm like, I am not loving any of this, even though
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they may be really great ideas.
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I'm just in a place of like, well, this isn't challenging enough for me.
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This isn't where I want to be, and it's not in a healthy, like,
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I'm gonna keep pushing myself.
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I'm just like, this isn't right.
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This isn't right.
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This isn't right.
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This isn't right.
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And I'm like, okay, I'm not getting anywhere.
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And now I've chewed through my creative fee , and then I'm still nowhere.
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And so that is one way the, there's a few other, like for me,
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I can work myself until I get.
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That is another sign of burnout where I am pushing myself past my boundaries.
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You know, working late, getting up early to do work, not necessarily,
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you know, enjoy my life.
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The other side is, you know, relationships with friends and
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family, you know, dwindling.
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Where I am solely focused.
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I mean, I'm pretty sure many of us have experienced that over the
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past few years with the influx of a massive amount of work that kind
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of smacked us all at the same time.
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And that to me was okay for a period of time, but after a
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certain point you're like, okay, I need to start resuming a life.
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I need to be able to disconnect from my work so that I'm not so honed in that.
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That is the only thing I'm focusing on.
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Becca: Yeah.
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There's gonna be so many people that are gonna be resonating with some of the
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stuff that you're talking about right now.
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Because again, I think as creatives and as entrepreneurs, we
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definitely push ourselves too much.
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We put so much pressure on ourselves to get it right, and it's very easy
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for us to end up in these scenarios.
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And I know lots of people listening and myself included, have
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definitely experienced some of that.
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So if we have, we are resonating with this and we're thinking, actually
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that's describing where I am right now as I listen to this podcast.
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What could we do to address that?
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Jordan: So the first thing I, I typically like to look at from a project perspective
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is how do I manage this relationship with this client and this amount of work?
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Oftentimes I get overwhelmed and then I'm like, I don't know where to start.
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So for me, it's about breaking all the pieces down and putting a, a
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foundation and a plan in place that is reasonable for where I'm at currently.
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Have an honest conversation that, you know, maybe you need a little bit more
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time, maybe you're not able to deliver that full scope and see where they're at.
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You know, oftentimes we will.
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Kind of suffer in silence where we're like, well, they're gonna be upset
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at me, so I can't go back to them and ask them for more money, or I can't
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go back to them and ask for more time.
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I mean, if you have a wedding on Saturday, you can't really ask for more time.
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You gotta see what you can do within that reasonable amount of time.
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Bring in some support.
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I mean, honestly, the friends that I've been able to lean on
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when I'm in my most dire need.
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I was very surprised that they would sacrifice so much time to
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just come and help me which chose the relationships that we've had.
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But, and it wasn't me asking, it was my husband who was
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like, just go ask your friend.
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And I was like, no, no, I can't ask them.
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Like, I've got all this stuff to figure out.
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And so I asked them and they're like, yeah, I'll be there tomorrow.
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And I'm like, oh.
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That was it.
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There was no like begging or pleading or anything and they came over.
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We made them dinner.
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They helped us up for like five or six hours.
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It was amazing.
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It was like I had eight hands and so I got a lot more done and a lot
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more accomplished and I actually was able to ease a lot of my burden.
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And so asking for help is definitely one thing.
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The second thing is kind of laying that plan Plan out on paper.
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That really helps cuz it gives you something to track back to.
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So, you know, set some deadlines for yourself, set some tasks.
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And also time box things.
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That's another thing that I've really started experiencing of like, I'm going
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to spend half an hour doing this thing.
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If I need more time, that is fine.
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I will bargain for that time after that half an hour.
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But I'm gonna set that up and then I will stop that work and then I'll move
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on to the next thing and then I can put more time in my calendar later.
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That has helped me not sit there and spin when I am stuck.
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Becca: I love that bit about asking for help and how people will step up
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and help you because that's so true.
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But often we have to get past our own pride and our own ego, don't we?
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Because we, again, we're our own worst enemies.
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We don't want anyone else to know that we're struggling.
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We wanna pretend that everything's okay.
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We wanna project this picture to our clients that we are perfect
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and nothing could ever go wrong.
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And actually, as you've just shared, when we step out of that and just a
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little bit, be a little bit humble and say, actually, I'm struggling
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with this and I need some help.
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There are plenty of people around us who are willing to help.
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So if you, again, if you're listening to this and you are resonating with
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it, please reach out to children.
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Reach out to me and just say help.
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Like, what should I do?
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Because we don't wanna leave you in that burnout.
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Find people in your life, friends, family that you can reach out
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to and say, don't stay stuck.
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Now, one of the other things that people are gonna say, I know because
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I can hear them asking this question in the head right now, is it's great
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to say, I'm gonna time block and I'm gonna charge my creative fee and I'm
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gonna do everything in the right time.
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And then we get that really difficult customer who's demanding way too much of
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us for the amount of money they're paying.
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Like what do we do in that situation to keep ourselves sane?
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Jordan: You have to . The first one that is a really tough one is, you know, that
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relationship might not actually be a healthy one to be in and possibly sever
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ties deliver the work as it is, you know.
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Cut ties, end contract, you know, you might have to
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refund a little bit of money.
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That's one avenue.
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I know it's not everyone's option, but that is the clearest, easy way.
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The second one is set some very, very, very clear boundaries,
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and when they breach those boundaries, it has ramifications.
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So in the advertising world, oftentimes we're like, listen, if you
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don't give us feedback by 2:00 PM.
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This moves out.
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We don't go, okay, no problem.
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I'll just eat the seven hours that I've now lost in a day because
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you took too much time, and so I'm gonna have to make up that time.
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The conversation is, if you don't approve this by Tuesday, the date moves
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out and you'll get the next round of feedback later, and then they realize
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they don't have any leg to stand on because they're like, okay, well if
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I take more time, , then you take more time and then that impacts me.
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And so the more that that happens to them, they start to realize that
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they don't really have the cards and they need to collaborate with you.
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It is still very difficult, especially when you have a disgruntled
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client how to appease them.
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That is another area that is quite challenging, especially
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when your back is up against the wall and you have no wiggle room.
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I've been in that situation before.
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. You know, you may be late and they're like, well, listen, like,
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because you're late now, I'm gonna not pay any more money.
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And you're like, okay, I gotta eat those costs.
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But for me, those instances, sometimes I just have to accept it and work through
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it in as quiet a manner as possible.
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But then I take all of those learnings and apply them to my next job immediately
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so that I don't do those things.
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, it might be working with my team to build a better, stronger plan.
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Earlier it might be putting a new document together for onboarding a new client so
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that I don't end up with them not having as adequate wording or spelling mistakes
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or proofing issues like any of those things that you learn very early on.
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At least in the stationary side.
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I start to apply to my next job so that I don't replicate the same
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problems at times when you're.
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I don't know what to do.
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The easiest thing is to just chip away at it and have an honest conversation,
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and if they're being overly aggressive, find a way to take a step back, not
17:49
necessarily from the work, but just step out of the situation, process
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and come back in when you're calm.
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That will help those situations because then you come at it from a place of calm
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that you can then rationally explain and come to a consensus on for a solution.
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Becca: Really helpful tips there.
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Definitely.
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One of the things I say to my clients all the time when they come to me with
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a problem or a difficult customer is, right, let's take the emotion out of it,
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first of all, and let's look at the facts.
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What have you agreed to?
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What are they asking for?
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Let's take the emotion out of it.
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But again, as creative people who love to serve our customers, we can get
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really wrapped up in that emotion.
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And also, I think what you said about boundaries is so true because
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for some reason when it comes to our personal businesses, our
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creative businesses, we feel like.
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Go out the window or we, we try and be really good people.
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And what we always find, and I'm sure this is the same for you, is
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you give an inch and they run a mile
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. Jordan: Absolutely.
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The other thing that I would say is there are sacrifices we can make
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in our aspect of perfectionism.
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And so well, by that what I mean is the client doesn't always
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know what is in your head.
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Like you've never been able, like most of the times I'm not able to articulate
19:02
the final vision cause I don't know what it's ultimately gonna look like.
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I start doing things and things happen and, and those things.
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And so what I mean by sacrifice is there are ways that you could
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adjust the vision so that you're still delivering the end result.
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And it is still gonna be, its its level of delivery, but you might not have
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to sacrifice those extra six hours to.
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In my case, cut paper a very specific way.
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I might be able to find a dye that does it, that costs me a little bit more money,
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but shaves off two days worth of work.
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There are things that I can do to speed up my process and put
19:35
efficiencies in place that ultimately doesn't sacrifice the end product.
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but saves my sanity.
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And so that's another thing you can look at, especially when you're feeling that
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little bit of burnout, is where can I find efficiencies within my existing work, put
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up multiple projects at the same time?
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Can I, you know, find some efficiencies there?
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That to me, has been another really great way of, of spreading.
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That pain
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. Becca: Yeah, that's really, really helpful.
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Okay, so there's gonna be some other people listening to this and thinking,
20:04
actually, I don't resonate with this.
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Burnout hasn't been a thing for me so far.
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Maybe they're just starting out, maybe they're in a good place,
20:10
but what can they be putting in place now to prevent burnout?
20:15
So even if they haven't had burnout yet, what can they be doing in
20:18
their businesses to prevent it?
20:20
Jordan: The one thing that.
20:21
Worked a lot on is really defining my scopes and my contracts, and
20:27
that sets me up for success, but it also sets the client up for success
20:31
because they know what to expect, when to expect it for the most part.
20:35
Things obviously change over time.
20:37
That to me has allowed me to basically block my timeout.
20:41
And what I'll do is I'll put that in my calendar this date, this
20:44
deliverable goes out on this date.
20:45
I'm expecting client feedback on this date.
20:48
I'm gonna be putting things in production on this date and at least on paper.
20:52
I'm not gonna overcommit myself cause I'm like, holy cow, I have
20:55
a wedding on Saturday that's gonna have a four hour drive.
20:58
And those things.
20:59
Cause at the time I'm like, sure, sure, sure.
21:01
We'll just book it in.
21:02
And then I don't really realize when I take a short term job in
21:05
there that it has a conflict.
21:06
And now I'm trying to cram in four days worth of work in one day.
21:10
. Like you can tend to do that because you're like, sure, that sounds easy,
21:12
especially in the digital world where you're like, sure, I can, I can help.
21:15
No problem.
21:15
I'll just start this project.
21:17
But you don't necessarily always realize the commitment of time, especially
21:20
with other things that are going on.
21:22
Some people are amazing at it, but I'm a like a creative creative where I'm not
21:26
the best project manager at times, and I'm like, okay, how am I supposed to do?
21:30
Today, and sleep and eat and clean my house.
21:35
and so that has been a really, really big thing for me.
21:38
It's also strengthened my relationship with my clients and my, you know, planners
21:43
that I work with because they know what to expect and when to expect it in there.
21:46
I also dictate turnaround times.
21:48
So I, I'll respond within X amount of dates, like days and the . Client has
21:52
so many days to respond or then we have to have a conversation because it's
21:56
starts to impact ultimate deliverables.
21:58
That has been one way to kind of set myself up to prevent those things.
22:01
And the other thing is kind of leaning back on the friend conversation
22:07
about having open, honest dialogue as things are happening before they.
22:13
And so I have a couple friends where I'll do like a check-in and
22:15
we just see how things are going.
22:17
You know, they may be struggling, they may not be struggling, but
22:20
I'm like, Hey, wow, you sound like you're gonna be really busy.
22:21
Do you need anything?
22:22
Like, is there anything I can do for that?
22:24
And that can go a long way of helping ease the burden before the burden happens.
22:28
It also just gives me a place to have a sounding board.
22:31
With someone who understands what I'm going through.
22:33
My husband is amazing, but he doesn't deal with my business day to day.
22:37
And so when sometimes he's like, well, that's whatever, who cares?
22:40
Just figure it out.
22:41
And you're like, yeah, that doesn't really work that way.
22:43
But when I talk to another stationer and I'm like, I don't know how to do
22:46
this, and I'm really struggling, and they're like, oh, what about this?
22:48
Or How about this vendor that you've maybe you never used before?
22:50
What about this paper?
22:51
Or what about this method?
22:52
And I'm like, oh.
22:54
Like problem solved.
22:55
Like you never really know until you ask.
22:58
And so that to me goes a really long way about giving me a space where I can ask
23:02
questions earlier on and often so that I don't feel like I have to figure this all
23:06
out on my own until it buries me alive.
23:09
Becca: Yeah, that is really helpful.
23:10
And I definitely think having a community of other people within the
23:14
wedding, It can be so helpful for that.
23:16
And again, if you guys are listening to this and you're in my community
23:19
and you're struggling, just share with the other people in there because I
23:22
guarantee there's someone else in there that's gone through something similar
23:25
and has got some advice for you as well.
23:27
Now, something came up in that conversation that I wanna touch
23:30
back on, which I know is something else that we're all struggling with
23:33
all of the time, and that's saying no to things we often wanna say.
23:39
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
23:40
And exactly like you said, you've got our wedding booked in and then you see a tiny.
23:44
Lot of time on your calendar.
23:45
Someone asks you, can you do my wedding too?
23:46
And you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.
23:48
And then you're like, I dunno how I'm gonna do it.
23:50
In your own business, have you learned to say no?
23:53
How have you gone about doing that?
23:55
Jordan: Absolutely.
23:57
Not often enough . But I'm practicing.
24:00
It is a learning experience.
24:02
One thing that I've gotten really.
24:04
Good.
24:04
That I will say is on events that are not going to move my business forward.
24:10
That don't bring a lot of financial, like there's financial jobs where
24:14
you're like, this is gonna keep the lights on and I will work through it
24:16
and I'm happy to do it, but it isn't something I'm gonna put in my portfolio.
24:20
And then there's.
24:21
It pays me very little and it's not gonna move my business forward.
24:24
Those kinds of projects I've gotten really good at saying no to because
24:28
I've learned like I've done them in the beginning, but they didn't
24:30
do anything that, that relationship didn't bring anything forward.
24:33
Those clients are not gonna refer me because they're work is not the
24:37
kind of work that I want to be doing.
24:39
And so that to me is a really big thing that I learned.
24:42
The other thing is actually spreading the wealth.
24:44
So sometimes it's a no, but I know someone who's better at.
24:48
And it's not because it's not a good fit, like it's not a good fit for me,
24:50
but it might be a good amount of money.
24:51
And I'm like, listen, this person specializes in this.
24:54
You should go to this watercolor artist because I want you to support them.
24:58
I, I'm not gonna be the best person for that.
25:01
And that to me is another thing that I learned pretty early on because, you know,
25:04
you always wanna try and you wanna learn.
25:06
And you're like, oh, I can do all the things.
25:08
And you're like, well, I'm not really that great at it.
25:10
Or It takes me seven times as long as it probably should and I'm
25:13
not gonna make any money on it.
25:14
But then this person's amazing and I love them and I wanna support them.
25:18
So go over there, . That to me has been a really big help in the, in that sense.
25:23
The other thing is relationships with vendors that are not healthy.
25:27
And that is when you know they take more than they give or they
25:31
take and don't give anything.
25:33
That to me has been a really clear eye opener over the past few years,
25:36
especially coming out of the pandemic of a lot of the sacrifices I did.
25:40
Like none of that has come to fruition and that planner hasn't really been reciprocal
25:45
and the amount of work and money that I've donated to that relationship.
25:48
And so for me, it's been okay to actually.
25:50
Let that relationship fizzle if they have it, if they something
25:53
comes in, I'm like, okay, sure.
25:54
Here's my fees.
25:55
Here's all those things.
25:57
And if they're like, well, can you do me a favor?
25:58
No, I can't.
26:00
I have to pay my bills.
26:02
, I've given you a lot of favors.
26:03
I mean, you can have it in a really nice way, in an honest way, but.
26:07
you know, inside no . You know What?
26:11
It doesn't pay off, so no, thank you,
26:15
. Becca: Yeah, and I think it's great that you put it that way because actually
26:18
some people just need to hear it that way and realize actually they have
26:21
got permission that they can say no to things and they can say no to doing
26:24
work for free if they don't have time or they don't see a benefit for them.
26:28
And that's okay.
26:29
And that doesn't make them a bad person.
26:31
It makes them a smart, savvy, business owner that doesn't wanna burn out.
26:34
And that's what we want for everyone.
26:35
Right?
26:36
Jordan: Absolutely.
26:37
You also wanna save your bank account,
26:40
. Becca: Exactly.
26:40
And freebies.
26:41
Freebies don't pay our
26:42
bills, right?
26:43
Jordan: No.
26:44
I mean, you have to waive again those, what's the exposure gonna be?
26:48
What's the relationship you're building?
26:50
, you know, what could I potentially gain from that?
26:52
Is there something like also when you're doing things via donation
26:56
and you're contributing your time or materials or whatever, don't be
26:59
afraid to ask for something back.
27:01
Oftentimes we're just like, I'm happy with an Instagram credit, but like
27:04
maybe they could pay for shipping.
27:06
Maybe they could, you know, comp partial ticket so that I can attend the event.
27:10
Maybe I can go for free.
27:11
Like maybe they can make a referral.
27:14
Like if there's something you want from it, just don't be afraid to ask.
27:17
The worst that's gonna happen is, no, I'm sorry.
27:19
We don't do that.
27:20
Like, and you're like, okay, I'm still willing to do it, or I'm not
27:23
like clear, put it on the table, but.
27:26
Oftentimes we're like, well, they just asked for this, and so I'm gonna do it,
27:29
and then that's it, , and then you're like, well, I didn't get anything from it.
27:33
You're like, well, I didn't ask
27:34
. Becca: Yeah, that's so true.
27:36
That's definitely so true.
27:37
They think all they can ask for is an Instagram credit, but you're right.
27:40
There's a lot more things they could be asking for too.
27:43
Jordan, this has been a great conversation.
27:45
Thank you for being so open about your own business and your own
27:48
life and your own struggles.
27:49
I know it's gonna resonate with so many people listening.
27:52
Now before we end, I always end every interview with the
27:55
same question, which is this.
27:57
What is the one thing you wish you'd known sooner in your own business?
28:02
Jordan: I'm gonna go back to my Done is better than perfect mantra.
28:05
Like I would spend days working on something that had very little payoff.
28:10
I mean, I would have embraced that a lot earlier on the, actually,
28:14
the other thing I would be is don't advertise it everywhere.
28:17
pick one thing, try it out, and then see how that resonates
28:21
over a long period of time.
28:22
I blanketed a lot really at the beginning to be like, I need
28:25
to get my footing in there.
28:26
And I spent a lot of money that had never been reciprocated, . The, the
28:31
clients never came in from those revenues because they, they weren't
28:34
ultimately the right fit for me and my business, but I didn't realize that.
28:37
And so I wish I would've taken more time to do a bit more research and choose
28:42
a lot more wisely to invest in one or two key areas for advertising versus
28:46
trying a whole bunch of different things.
28:48
Because when I talk to my friends, they're like, oh, that didn't work for me.
28:50
Oh, that didn't work for me, and that didn't work for me.
28:52
And I was like, Great.
28:54
Which I would've known that before I spent a thousand dollars
28:58
. Becca: Yes.
28:58
And that circles us nicely background to where we started, which was do
29:02
your research, do your market research about your ideal couples, and find
29:06
out where they're hanging out, and then advertise there, not everywhere.
29:11
Jordan, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you.
29:13
If people wanna find out more about you and what you do, where's the
29:16
best place for them to find you?
29:18
Jordan: Website.
29:18
Best place overall.
29:20
A good day inc inc.com and Instagram is my other space that I kind of play around
29:25
with a lot and a good day, Inc as well.
29:27
Becca: Fabulous.
29:27
I'll make sure that I put all of those links in the show notes for you.
29:31
It's been a pleasure to talk.
29:32
Thank you again, and hopefully we'll speak again soon.
29:35
Jordan: Yeah.
29:35
Thank you so much for having me, Becca.
29:37
Becca: How great was that conversation with Jordan?
29:39
And I know that's gonna really resonate with some of you,
29:41
especially the creatives out there.
29:43
I love his idea about charging a creative fee, and that's something that I think
29:47
a lot of you could start implementing.
29:49
Hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
29:51
I'll be back next week.