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Redemption Behind Bars, A Story Of Hope: Jason Holland · Nightmare Success In and Out

• 0:01
  What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
• 0:04
  Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy, welcome to the Nightmare Success In and
• 0:07
  Out podcast where we explore how to overcome your fears and
• 0:11
  nightmares that set yourself free.
• 0:13
  We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
• 0:15
  Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
• 0:20
  These stories can be inspiring, sometimes sad, There's some
• 0:24
  humor, but hopefully you can come away with a nugget of
• 0:27
  something that'll help you knock down some of the prisons you
• 0:29
  built up in your own mind. All right, welcome back
• 0:34
  nightmare success in and out. Listeners, This is where you
• 0:36
  come for what happens when your worst year becomes your reality.
• 0:39
  How do you adapt, survive, overcome, set yourself free?
• 0:43
  Wow, do I have a very fascinating, interesting guest
• 0:48
  today. I've been deep into his story.
• 0:52
  We had a long conversation on the phone the other day.
• 0:54
  And this is one of those stories that to summarize it really
• 1:01
  quickly, and some of you might have have heard about this story
• 1:04
  back in the 90s, but it was it was six teenagers in the
• 1:07
  backyard and there was a fight and fight was pretty, pretty
• 1:16
  brutal. And some brothers and some
• 1:19
  friends and a guy that sold marijuana and and someone died
• 1:25
  and it was Jimmy Farris and he was the son of a police officer.
• 1:29
  And the the story got so much press with these teenage boys is
• 1:36
  out in California in a small, smaller towns, a suburb town.
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  And they hadn't had a lot of this.
• 1:44
  And it was one of those stories that really, I think picked up a
• 1:48
  lot of steam for a lot of reasons.
• 1:51
  But the 3/3 of the teenagers got charged with felony murder, with
• 1:57
  life without parole. And it's, it's I've got Jason
• 2:05
  Holland with me today who ended up, he's with me today.
• 2:08
  So obviously he's not life without parole.
• 2:11
  He served 28 years. And when I talk about the people
• 2:15
  that picked up on this, I mean, it's it's there was a
• 2:17
  documentary done on this. It's called Reckless
• 2:20
  Indifference. Actor Charles Grodin did a play
• 2:23
  and directed that play called The Prosecution of Brandon Hine.
• 2:29
  Alan Dershowitz was a guy that was very much a part of having
• 2:34
  an opinion on this. One of his quotes was that the
• 2:39
  the prosecutors terrorized the jury into believing the
• 2:41
  defendants were gang members and it it kind of tainted the whole
• 2:45
  feel of how this was was played out in the courtroom.
• 2:49
  The Rolling Stone magazine lynching in Malibu teens on
• 2:53
  trial. Wow.
• 2:56
  It's, it's just a, it's an in depth story about all of this
• 3:02
  and all the different things that happened.
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  But it's, it caught the attention of a lot of people.
• 3:11
  And I've had the pleasure of Travis Ritchie connected me to
• 3:15
  Jason Holland. Travis was on this show and he's
• 3:18
  done some great things with his life since he got out of prison.
• 3:22
  And I, I can't wait to jump on to this Jason Holland story
• 3:27
  because he's doing great things with his life now.
• 3:29
  And, and, but at first, I want to recognize show sponsor
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  deserve Auto Plaza direct telling Brent from nightmare
• 4:06
  success sent you Jason Holland welcome in welcome.
• 4:10
  Thanks for having a. Good time.
• 4:12
  Absolutely, thanks for having me.
• 4:14
  So, yeah, I mean it this, this story, you know, after we got
• 4:18
  off the phone, I, I, I started looking at, at all the different
• 4:22
  things that went on with this. This is, you know, 95, I think
• 4:25
  is when you were in trial in 96. And then, you know, 28 years
• 4:29
  later, you've been out since 2023.
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  And I've been following. I looked at your, your Instagram
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  and social media. You, you have also taken a
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  bucket list things of things once you've gotten out.
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  I'm sure there were things that you thought of while you were in
• 4:46
  that I'm I'm going to do this. And if you're jumping out of
• 4:49
  planes and you're diving in, you know, the oceans and really
• 4:53
  cool. But Jason, take us back before
• 4:59
  the event. What, what was going on in your
• 5:02
  life growing up? Take us back to that.
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  So that's a, that's a pretty heavy question, right?
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  I think that's what's important is when I look back on it now,
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  I, I'm looking at it from a much different lens than how I was
• 5:24
  experiencing as a, as a youth. And so I grew up in ultimately a
• 5:29
  really good household. You know, I had two parents and
• 5:32
  at home, while my mom did get divorced from my biological
• 5:36
  father at 5, my stepfather married my mother at 8 and, you
• 5:41
  know, moved us out to California.
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  There were complications and challenges within the family
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  unit. You know, there was violence,
• 5:51
  there was some drug use and things like that.
• 5:56
  And it's hard for me to really paint a picture that I had a
• 6:00
  terrible childhood childhood because I didn't, I had some
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  experiences that were good, some experiences that were negative,
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  but I, I had a great childhood in terms of like I grew up in
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  Southern California. I played sports.
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  I had opportunities and access to a lot of things that many
• 6:15
  people don't now. At the time of 1995, what I was
• 6:23
  going through was in 93, my mom sent my brother and I away to a
• 6:29
  boarding school in Missouri. We were there for a year.
• 6:33
  That was a very difficult experience for me at the time.
• 6:37
  Yeah, You were 13. Years old.
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  Then I was, I was 15, my brother was 12, came back when I was 16
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  and. Into the Midwest.
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  Yeah. And so we went through our
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  experiences in that, in that school, that boarding school.
• 6:54
  And when I came back, how long were?
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  You. There, I was there for a year, a
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  year, yeah. So when I came back, I tried to
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  reintegrate with, you know, my friends here.
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  And things had changed for me. Things had changed in my town.
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  And one of the ways that I dealt with it, like the social and
• 7:14
  academic pressures that I was facing at the time, was I just
• 7:17
  started smoking weed. And I was telling myself that it
• 7:21
  was fun, but really what it became was numbing and escape.
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  And the truth is, is I just didn't want to deal with the
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  pressures that I I deemed other people to be placing upon me.
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  And so it was easier for me to just go get high, find friends
• 7:38
  that like to get high. And at the time, I gravitated to
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  a group of friends who were not not only into getting high, but
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  they were into crime as well. And so through exposure with
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  them and through encouraging them to do bad things and them
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  encouraging me like it just progressed.
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  And so my behavior became progressively worse and
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  reckless. And so within a matter of two
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  years, you know, I was using experimenting with a lot of
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  drugs. I was drinking frequently.
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  I was school was not in really a real issue in my life because I
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  was just truant all the time. But it said when I was reading
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  about you, yeah, Jason, that you had you were smart.
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  I mean, you you didn't have to try very hard and you were AB
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  student and even though you weren't going to school that
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  much, you were you were getting by with school.
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  So it wasn't like you were a bad student as far as not getting
• 8:39
  what was there. It's just that somehow you
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  weren't plugged in. I'm, and I was curious about
• 8:44
  that time period that you were in that boarding school.
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  I guess I, I think about that. I think that that's got to be so
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  weird for, for a California kid to come into a, a, a, it was, I
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  think it was a Baptist boarding school type situation.
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  What? What was that like for you to to
• 9:01
  go from that to that? It was difficult.
• 9:09
  It was very much to me like a prison at the time, very
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  confusing because they in that school, I was there with my
• 9:17
  brother, they had a lot of like a strange rules.
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  So for probably 3 months at the time that I was there, I wasn't
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  even allowed to talk to my brother even though I would see
• 9:25
  him. They had these rules about stuff
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  like that. And like they had these, they
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  had the kids placed in tears, I guess you could say, in terms of
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  privileges, who they could and could not interact with, what
• 9:36
  they could and could not do. So it was a, it was a somewhat
• 9:39
  oppressive environment. It was very much they forced
• 9:41
  fetish religion. And so do you.
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  Think they had an effect on you going?
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  Back to Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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  And it, and it not only had an effect on me then, but I many, I
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  realized many years later, it just had an effect on me
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  spiritually in my relationship with how I perceive God or, you
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  know, just religion or any kind of spiritual walk in my life.
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  I didn't realize it at the time. I just became a really defiant,
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  belligerent teenager when I got home, especially when I was
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  given access and freedom and I wasn't sort of being kept under
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  thumb by the staff that was at that school.
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  So it was a, it was a difficult time, challenging time for me to
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  say the least. And so when I came back, and
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  it's actually, I'm glad you mentioned that because being
• 10:26
  that my mom sent me there at the time, the, the way that I told
• 10:30
  myself that story was that she had betrayed me.
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  And that gave me the reason, the, the excuse and the license
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  to just basically do whatever I wanted, right?
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  And so, and I, I harbored this resentment towards her and I
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  harbored it because it allowed me to, to the permission to do
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  whatever I wanted to do. I didn't realize this at the
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  time. This took, this came to me many
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  years later, But so when I came back, I, I was running reckless
• 10:58
  and wild. My behavior was progressively
• 11:00
  getting worse and it was getting to the point to where like I was
• 11:08
  willing to use violence on people to get what I wanted and
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  so on. Then May 22nd, 1995, that's
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  exactly what I did. And it was extreme violence.
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  And Jimmy Farris lost his life. His his best friend, Michael
• 11:21
  Mclaurin was critically wounded. Their families were traumatized
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  and the community was traumatized.
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  And we went to prison. Yeah, but it there's a lot in
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  that because, you know, the, the struggle that that I read about,
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  I mean, whether you say it or not, your your brother was just
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  getting absolutely pummeled as a older brother, you were, I think
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  the the adrenaline and the protection of, of trying to pull
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  him off and and the whole craziness of you guys being
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  high, been drinking that day and and the other guys, you know,
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  the whole thing sounds like a bad movie.
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  And you know, the situation of how it developed was fast.
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  It sounded. I mean, when I read about it,
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  it's just like you weren't even sure that Jason, you, you've,
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  you looked at the pocket knife and you weren't even sure.
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  But then you knew that you had, you'd stabbed Mike and and then
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  when Jimmy came around and you'd been kicked in the head, you
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  stabbed just as a adrenaline. So you the, the, the rush of
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  what I understand is, is when you guys ran out of there and
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  you're sitting on the curb, you're like, man, I, I, I, I
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  think I, I stabbed those guys with my pocket knife out of this
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  whole thing. And and I know that the
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  craziness of the never under an overlook, somebody lost their
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  life and, and it's a horrible situation and, and you've and
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  and three other guys went through a a hellacious
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  experience. But man, that sounds like it was
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  a nightmare that that happened in that moment.
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  And you know, and you know, you and I have talked to you said,
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  do you wish you could take away everything that happened?
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  Absolutely. Absolutely.
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  And I want to be really clear, Brent.
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  Like looking back on it now, I knew what I did.
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  I knew the gravity of my actions and I used my brother was
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  involved and I used that as sort of a way to minimize my actions
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  later and to justify like why I would have done such a thing,
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  especially once we were under trial.
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  But I definitely don't want to try to avoid responsibility or
• 13:41
  minimize my actions today. There, there was nothing that
• 13:44
  Mike Mclaurin or Jimmy Farris ever did for me to take things
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  to that extreme. I had no business being on their
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  property or doing what I was doing or living the lifestyle
• 13:53
  that I was living. One of the things that I
• 13:55
  realized is I was living my life in a way at that time where
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  sooner or later someone was going to get hurt or I was going
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  to. And on that day, it happened to
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  be them and. The and the other thing that I
• 14:05
  think that was such a heavy burden for you at that time is
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  that you did it and the other guys because of this felony
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  murder law that they didn't kill somebody and they didn't charge
• 14:21
  manslaughter. They caught, they charged
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  murder, they didn't it wasn't self-defense, it wasn't
• 14:25
  manslaughter. They charged murder, but they
• 14:27
  charged felony murder. So these other people, even
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  though that they didn't do it, they were charged as felony
• 14:32
  murder and they got the life sentence.
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  And I think, you know, I can't imagine, you know, that feeling
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  of having to deal with the fact that I'm the one that did this.
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  I can't believe that my brother and the friend and whatever is
• 14:46
  is is being charged with the exact same thing.
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  And, and I, it would have been a lot to deal with.
• 14:52
  I mean, I would I, I, as I, as I read through all your stuff, I
• 14:56
  was like, man, that's, that's just the heaviness of that is,
• 14:59
  is and, and I, I was wondering when you were going through
• 15:03
  that, you know, I know that there was, I don't know how many
• 15:06
  days it went by that you, your, your mom made a plea and out to
• 15:11
  the TV and, and, and then you, you turn yourself in.
• 15:14
  She took you to the the sheriff, so she was able to do that.
• 15:20
  And then there was that moment where you said I loved you and
• 15:22
  she said, I love you too, babe. I mean, it's also gripping.
• 15:28
  It's like what as a kid at that time, what, what in the world
• 15:32
  was going through your mind? At that point in time, OK, so
• 15:39
  once I realized the gravity of my actions and the extent of it,
• 15:42
  that Jimmy Farris had lost his life, I just was thinking, I
• 15:46
  can't fix this. I can't take this back.
• 15:48
  This isn't something that you can just return to someone as if
• 15:50
  you stole something, right? This is a final action.
• 15:53
  So I was really overwhelmed and almost just seemed surreal, like
• 15:59
  I couldn't believe that this was the situation.
• 16:02
  And then I went on the run. And during that time, I had
• 16:06
  heard that they were charging my Co defendants with murder.
• 16:11
  And it's very much true that they didn't even know that a
• 16:13
  stabbing had occurred, right? And I couldn't stay on the run
• 16:18
  and let that be. My conscience wouldn't let me do
• 16:21
  that. So my hope was that I could turn
• 16:23
  myself in, I could accept responsibility for my actions
• 16:26
  and that my Co defendants would go free.
• 16:29
  We didn't know about the felony murder rule at the time.
• 16:31
  That was something that we had never.
• 16:32
  Heard of, didn't either. Yeah.
• 16:35
  And there's been laws or or bills that have been, I'm not
• 16:38
  sure I didn't go deep enough into it that they if they
• 16:41
  changed that. But there's been looked like
• 16:45
  looking through that, there were several people that tried to
• 16:47
  change that law. Well, they've definitely made
• 16:51
  some adjustments to it now. But yeah, at the time it was
• 16:56
  very broad. And so they prosecuted us pretty
• 17:01
  aggressively, rightfully so. And we all ended up with life
• 17:07
  sentences at the time the four of us did.
• 17:10
  Well, I want to go into that stepping into this whole trial
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  thing and and everything surrounded before I do, I want
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  So Jason on when you walk in, turn yourself in.
• 19:08
  I'm, I'm sure walking in there and knowing what was in front of
• 19:12
  you, how long did it take for that whole process to to happen?
• 19:18
  You mean just initially getting booked?
• 19:20
  No, just you, you walk in there. It's it's may what you it.
• 19:26
  Was May, June, so I believe at that point it was June 9th or
• 19:31
  June 10th on the day that I turned myself.
• 19:33
  You turned yourself in. Yeah.
• 19:35
  So you walk in, you don't know anything about what's going to
• 19:37
  happen next. Do you get an attorney?
• 19:39
  Do you? How does it?
• 19:40
  How does it all unravel? Yeah, so that's that's true.
• 19:46
  I really had no idea of what I was walking into.
• 19:49
  But eventually I did get an attorney.
• 19:51
  My mom found an attorney for me within a matter of, I would say
• 19:55
  a month, maybe, because I initially had a public defender.
• 19:58
  But then there was someone that she hired within 30 days, and we
• 20:03
  began the court process. And a lot of it's really murky.
• 20:08
  As I look back on it, I have these moments that stand out.
• 20:12
  Yeah, it's been quite some time. And I have some moments that
• 20:15
  stand out. But yeah, it, it was, I think it
• 20:18
  was pretty much a typical court experience.
• 20:20
  I was lucky enough to have an attorney and we were tried
• 20:28
  together, stood. Out to you like.
• 20:29
  What was that? What were the moments that stood
• 20:31
  out to you now, looking back on it?
• 20:34
  Oh, I think like key moments in the court, like key decisions
• 20:38
  that were made where they decided to try us all together.
• 20:41
  Or there was a moment where the judge allowed the prosecution to
• 20:45
  introduce a crime spree theory. And it was the crime spree
• 20:48
  theory that really enabled them to anchor us to felony murder.
• 20:55
  Because up until that point, there wasn't a whole lot of
• 20:58
  evidence to support that. But with crime spree theory, all
• 21:02
  they had to do was essentially say that we had done these three
• 21:06
  things throughout the day that established identity and intent.
• 21:10
  And once they were able to put that together, and that was a
• 21:12
  probably one of the biggest controversial decisions of the
• 21:15
  trial, the fact that the judge allowed that because that's that
• 21:19
  was really the thing that that put it all together well.
• 21:22
  And I think there was an interesting thing about the
• 21:24
  judge, and I can only I'm only speaking from my behalf, not on
• 21:27
  you, that this judge was someone who had some high profile Robert
• 21:35
  Downey junior, Gary Busey. And there was some high profile
• 21:41
  things that happened and he let him off on probation.
• 21:43
  I think from reading I I also think he was looking for a case
• 21:49
  to to come down and show that he was tough on crime.
• 21:52
  And this happened to be at that moment in time of the place was
• 21:56
  on fire. People are upset and, and it
• 22:01
  appeared that this judge who had been someone who was seen as
• 22:05
  lenient before, looked at this case and really came down hard.
• 22:09
  And, and and I'm not saying that you're saying that.
• 22:11
  I'm saying that that's what I'm reading from how people it
• 22:15
  appeared that he just didn't like these kids and he was going
• 22:18
  to do whatever the hardest that he could do to to show and make
• 22:22
  a point. But being what it was, you ended
• 22:28
  up getting life without parole. And I just wonder, you know, not
• 22:35
  too many people. I mean, we see it in movies.
• 22:38
  But when somebody tells you life without parole, what, how do
• 22:43
  you, how do you eat that elephant?
• 22:46
  What, what goes through your mind when somebody says you're
• 22:49
  done, you're, you're going to go to prison forever and not get
• 22:54
  parole? Yeah.
• 22:55
  So I, I, I don't have a good answer for that.
• 22:58
  I think I checked out and just sort of, you know, the lawyers
• 23:02
  at the time were telling us that, well, hey, you have a you
• 23:05
  have a hope for appeal. The the prospects for an appeal
• 23:08
  look good. And you hang.
• 23:09
  I hung I hung on to that right going in to prison.
• 23:13
  Yeah. And and also there were some
• 23:14
  more pressing concerns for me now like I was AI was not a big
• 23:18
  guy. I was a young younger guy and I
• 23:20
  knew I was out of my depth and I was getting now ushered off into
• 23:24
  level 4 prison in California. And I knew that it was going to
• 23:28
  potentially be pretty dangerous. And so that was really at that
• 23:32
  point, I was just more like, survive this rather than worry
• 23:37
  so much about my time. It was just like, let's, let's
• 23:39
  go. Because there's no avoiding it.
• 23:41
  It just felt like this look, it's, it's one of those things
• 23:44
  like you got a reckoning coming. This sword's dangling over you
• 23:47
  and you're going to have to face it.
• 23:48
  There's no wiggling, there's no maneuvering.
• 23:51
  So that's kind of where I was at, like.
• 23:53
  Well, and I and I have a lot of conversations with people
• 23:55
  because I do this show and a lot of people will ask me, you know,
• 23:58
  as they're going into prison, nothing like what you are
• 24:01
  experiencing with love before prison, just the unknown of
• 24:03
  prison. Yeah.
• 24:04
  And you know what I say is that nothing is ever as bad as your
• 24:08
  mind makes it out to be. The unknown is the worst thing
• 24:10
  that you can do to yourself. And I think once you even as bad
• 24:13
  as it can be the worst information they can give you,
• 24:16
  at least you can start stepping off of that, stepping into it
• 24:20
  and dealing with it. But I still think that would be
• 24:23
  different if I knew I was going to a level 4 prison, because
• 24:27
  that's the very most violent place to be.
• 24:30
  And, and at 19 years old, you and I were talking about this
• 24:32
  before you got on. I mean, you more or less grew up
• 24:38
  in prison at 19 years old, you're a teenager.
• 24:43
  And, and you know, for the next 28 years of your life, you, you
• 24:46
  were going to, as far as you know, you're going to spend the
• 24:48
  rest of your life there. But you, you, you grew up in
• 24:52
  prison, which is fascinating, really, because you have to
• 24:56
  figure out so many things. Jason.
• 24:59
  Yeah, I did. I grew up, I matured in there.
• 25:02
  I learned a lot. I went down some dark paths and
• 25:05
  eventually I found the light. Yeah, so.
• 25:08
  And it's a let's. Talk about that because you, you
• 25:10
  were talking about that, you know, when you went in, you were
• 25:15
  so much different than than what she became while you were in.
• 25:18
  But walk us into that moment of you going into that and, and,
• 25:24
  and those times and years that you were there and you were, and
• 25:28
  walk us into how you found a different way because when you
• 25:33
  walked in, you were in a dark, dark space.
• 25:36
  So when you say walk into how I found a different way, do you
• 25:39
  mean like the moment when I really started to change my
• 25:41
  life? Well, when you walked into
• 25:44
  prison, how did you? How did you survive?
• 25:49
  How did you live before you transformed yourself?
• 25:52
  Yeah, So I think that when I walked into prison, there was a
• 25:58
  lot of, you know, California prison was different at that
• 26:00
  time. And there were a lot of
• 26:01
  different, like narratives and things.
• 26:03
  And I, I, I I just knew that I had to survive.
• 26:06
  And I'm going to be straight like I was.
• 26:08
  I knew I was out of my depth. I was never a tough guy.
• 26:10
  I was never a tough kid. I tried to project that and
• 26:13
  convince other people of that, but I knew like, I just didn't
• 26:18
  belong. But one, one thing, I remember
• 26:21
  having this conversation with these guys, these older guys,
• 26:25
  and they said, hey, So what are you going to do?
• 26:27
  And I said, what do you mean? And they said, well, you're
• 26:29
  doing life without, you're never going home, what are you going
• 26:31
  to do? And I was like, I don't know,
• 26:34
  what should I do? And one of them told me, he
• 26:36
  said, look, if I were you, I'd make a name for myself.
• 26:39
  And what they meant was, you know, get involved with all the
• 26:42
  stuff that convicts at the time get involved with and make a
• 26:46
  name. Because really at the time, I
• 26:48
  think for those guys, it seemed very true that that's what we
• 26:50
  had left like in the world. And so I bought into that.
• 26:54
  I bought into adopting a lot of the belief systems of my peers
• 26:57
  around me. And a large part of it was,
• 27:00
  look, I wanted to, I wanted to survive.
• 27:03
  I, I had been, you know, I'd allowed myself to be bullied
• 27:07
  before in my past. And one thing I was deathly
• 27:09
  afraid of was I didn't want to be doing a life without sentence
• 27:12
  and get bullied in prison. So survive, don't get bullied.
• 27:16
  And also I wanted to fit in. I wanted to be perceived as
• 27:21
  strong enough to sort of hold my own in there, right?
• 27:24
  I was, I was really afraid of being perceived as weak.
• 27:27
  So I was a 19 year old kid with a bunch of insecurities that
• 27:31
  knew he was way out of his depth.
• 27:33
  But I also knew from my previous criminality that I could, I
• 27:39
  could adopt behaviors and beliefs that were destructive in
• 27:43
  order to survive. I knew that I wouldn't have
• 27:46
  phrased it at that time, but that's exactly what I did.
• 27:49
  And so I became, in many ways, fraudulent, a chameleon.
• 27:53
  I would do what I needed to do to fit in.
• 27:55
  I was violent. I was involved with criminal
• 27:58
  activities, and I would tell myself all kinds of stories to
• 28:01
  justify that. And I was very much deceptive
• 28:07
  towards my family and friends who are supportive of me.
• 28:09
  And when I would get into trouble, I would say, I would
• 28:11
  say, hey, man, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm just getting through this.
• 28:14
  And they would believe that no one really questioned me because
• 28:16
  they didn't know what I was going through.
• 28:19
  But could I have done things a lot differently?
• 28:21
  Perhaps there were guys that that navigated prison much more
• 28:24
  gracefully than I did. But I chose what I chose because
• 28:28
  I for me, it seemed like the best option at the time.
• 28:31
  And eventually I had a reckoning with that.
• 28:34
  I came to a place where I realized I had to make amends
• 28:38
  and changes for all of the harm that I had done to prison
• 28:43
  community, my outside community, to my friends, my family, the
• 28:47
  people that I had harmed, and also to myself.
• 28:49
  And that in itself was I was, I was at 19 years in when I
• 28:55
  reached my point where I realized that I call it my rock
• 28:59
  bottom, my Step 1 moment where I realized that, you know, all my
• 29:03
  supposed smarts and wits and everything that I thought I'd
• 29:06
  established in prison up until that time.
• 29:08
  Because that point I was established.
• 29:10
  I was much more confident with myself and like the world how it
• 29:13
  worked in prison, but I realized that all of it was just empty.
• 29:17
  And I had a real like, reckoning with myself, and I had to get
• 29:24
  really honest with myself about some things that needed to
• 29:26
  change, and I had to make some hard decisions.
• 29:29
  And I began that process of doing so and started seeing
• 29:34
  different results in my life. Was it?
• 29:35
  Just the moment, Jason, that you just felt like after 19 years
• 29:39
  you were just totally spent, just that you were empty.
• 29:43
  Is that, is that what brought you to that rock bottom moment?
• 29:45
  That I've got to do something different?
• 29:46
  Even though I'm here, I've got to feel different?
• 29:50
  Well, I think what happened for me, Brent was OK at that point
• 29:53
  in time. I was, there was a lot of things
• 29:56
  going on around me that I was no longer.
• 29:59
  So for instance, the criminality, being involved with
• 30:02
  politics in prison, smuggling, all the stuff that I was
• 30:05
  involved with, like my values had shifted that that was no
• 30:09
  longer working for me. And I was at odds with a lot of
• 30:12
  it, right. And I couldn't justify the
• 30:15
  things that I once had justified anymore.
• 30:18
  And I felt really out of place. I felt out of place with my
• 30:22
  peers. I felt like I had finally proved
• 30:25
  to everyone that I was as bad as I had projected myself to be.
• 30:29
  But I felt more fraudulent than ever.
• 30:31
  And so it just felt like I was like, it wasn't working and
• 30:36
  something needed to change. And I couldn't go on like this.
• 30:38
  And so when I realized like, hey, man, like this isn't going
• 30:41
  to work. And I was, I was at the point of
• 30:45
  I was either going to commit suicide.
• 30:47
  I was at like a depth of despair and hopelessness that all of my
• 30:51
  life had led to nothing but harm and destruction and chaos and
• 30:57
  lies. And so I reached this place of
• 31:01
  hopelessness and despair. And I was like, OK, well, what's
• 31:06
  it going to be? Am I going to continue doing
• 31:07
  this? Because I know how this is going
• 31:09
  to go. I'm just going to continue
• 31:10
  digging holes for myself and other people.
• 31:11
  And I just don't want that anymore.
• 31:14
  Am I going to change or am I going to just take myself out of
• 31:16
  the equation? And before I took myself out of
• 31:21
  the equation, I said, well, look, let me just try to change.
• 31:24
  And So what happened was I happened to be reading these
• 31:28
  like pamphlets from this group called ACCI, American
• 31:33
  Corrections Community Institute or something like that.
• 31:36
  And it was on one of the topics was on scripting.
• 31:41
  And scripting is the belief patterns that we pick up that
• 31:44
  impact our worldview and our place in the world.
• 31:48
  And as I was reading it, as I was so, so I'm at one point, I'm
• 31:52
  in conflict with myself and everything that I've been
• 31:54
  thinking about my position in the world and imprisoned
• 31:56
  specifically. And I'm trying to figure out how
• 31:59
  it can change that. But I'm at odds with that
• 32:00
  because I've bought into all these ideas and beliefs and this
• 32:03
  whole mode of conduct, Right. Well, I read this thing on
• 32:06
  scripting, and it says, look, man, a lot of people pick up
• 32:09
  scripts that they just adopt without ever really critiquing
• 32:12
  them. And I thought about it, and I
• 32:15
  was like, wait a second, what if all of my ideas about my place
• 32:18
  in the world are just scripts? Why can't I just change it?
• 32:22
  And so I started looking at that, and that was the real
• 32:26
  beginning of making all the decisions that came after that.
• 32:30
  And that takes courage. Well, it does too.
• 32:33
  I mean, to change on the outside here when you're not in prison
• 32:37
  takes courage, obviously. But when you're in prison and
• 32:40
  you've created this world for yourself and how people perceive
• 32:45
  you and then you're going to break from that.
• 32:49
  That's, that's something man, because you, you're going to,
• 32:52
  you have to find a whole different way of moving in
• 32:56
  prison, people you move with in prison.
• 33:00
  And that's something that's kind of hard to explain if you
• 33:04
  haven't been to prison. But people, it's very primitive.
• 33:08
  And I'm talking about it in a, in a much lower level than where
• 33:11
  you were at. But even at any level, when
• 33:15
  you're in a place where nobody leaves, the place gets
• 33:18
  primitive. And so there's people who hang
• 33:20
  out together and do things together.
• 33:23
  And you broke away from that and went another way.
• 33:26
  How, how was that proceed? How did how did you move out of
• 33:29
  that? So for one, I had to, I had to
• 33:36
  take steps to change who I was associating with.
• 33:39
  That was one. Then here's the deal though,
• 33:42
  with, with that environment, you, you can't just, you can't
• 33:46
  just run from problems because you're still there.
• 33:49
  Wherever you go, you're there, right?
• 33:51
  So not only did I have to change, yeah, not, did not only
• 33:54
  did I just change who I started hanging around, but I had to
• 33:57
  start changing how I responded to the environment, how I looked
• 34:00
  at opportunity. And So what happened was
• 34:04
  initially when I started making real changes in my life and I
• 34:09
  started getting involved with like looking at critiquing my
• 34:11
  thinking and my approach to the world and the prison
• 34:14
  specifically because at that time I wasn't really you sure,
• 34:18
  there was this wish that I could one day go home, but it was
• 34:21
  really just more like, as long as I can never come back to
• 34:23
  being in the place where I am right now, like spiritually,
• 34:26
  mentally, physically, like I'm, I'm good.
• 34:29
  I just don't want this anymore, right?
• 34:31
  I don't want to be involved with anyone getting hurt.
• 34:33
  I don't want to be involved with smuggling drugs and whatever
• 34:36
  else we were involved with, right?
• 34:37
  I just, I just want to go find something that has real value
• 34:41
  and meaning that I can contribute towards.
• 34:43
  Well, I read this book by Tony Robbins and it shifted.
• 34:47
  It just shifted my entire idea of what my potential was and
• 34:51
  what possibility was. And then I happened to land on a
• 34:54
  yard where there was these guys that were doing this innovative
• 34:58
  programming for like rehab and self help.
• 35:02
  And there happened to be a captain on that yard who knew me
• 35:05
  from my younger days. And so when I came on that yard,
• 35:08
  he said, hey, get him involved. And he opened the door for me to
• 35:11
  get involved with these guys. Well, I had just read this Tony
• 35:14
  Robbins book and like, I had read like Stephen's, Stephen
• 35:16
  Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective People.
• 35:20
  And so my thinking is, OK, everything that I've been doing
• 35:23
  before, there's some value to it, but let's take the stuff
• 35:27
  that's valuable because not everything I was doing
• 35:29
  previously was wrong. I knew how to network, I knew
• 35:32
  how to problem solve. I knew how to like think and
• 35:34
  adjust and all that stuff. But now it was, let me take, let
• 35:38
  me take what was good from that because not all of it was bad,
• 35:42
  but let me apply it a new way with what I'm learning.
• 35:45
  And I started immediately seeing results, right?
• 35:48
  And what happened was Tony Robbins has this thing, he says,
• 35:51
  look, man, if if you want to, if you want to do something in your
• 35:54
  life, you go find the people that are doing it and bring them
• 35:56
  value. Well, these guys that were on
• 35:59
  this yard, they were doing what I wanted to do.
• 36:01
  So I just went to them and I was like, hey, give me something to
• 36:04
  do. They gave me, they gave me a
• 36:05
  task and I executed quickly and said, give me another one.
• 36:08
  I executed again, right? And all that was was just me
• 36:12
  bringing value to them and establishing credibility and
• 36:15
  reliability, right? And I realized over time that
• 36:19
  that's really one of the big keys for success because a lot
• 36:23
  of guys, they would come later and they would say, hey, give me
• 36:26
  a chance to the same guys, but they just wouldn't execute.
• 36:29
  And so I was just like, when you're the one guy who does in
• 36:32
  the room full of people who don't, you it's able to
• 36:35
  differentiate yourself and to stand out, right?
• 36:38
  And so that's what I did. Meanwhile, I kept continue
• 36:42
  learning. I invested in my education.
• 36:44
  I went to college, but I was also studying self help stuff.
• 36:48
  And I really started believing and serving the community.
• 36:51
  One of the things too that I picked up, it sounds corny, but
• 36:54
  the secret to living is giving. And I would just live in that.
• 36:58
  And I would go try to bring value to people in New York.
• 37:00
  I would try to get them involved with groups.
• 37:02
  I would try to encourage them to get involved with education.
• 37:05
  We would try to be a voice that really spoke to what's possible
• 37:11
  for us and how we can expand our horizons in here, how we can
• 37:14
  have a different level of value and meaning in here, aside from
• 37:18
  what we've been accepting for ourselves.
• 37:19
  Because up until that point, Brent, I realized that I had, I
• 37:22
  had been accepting a world that was very small, right?
• 37:26
  A very narrow scope of the world.
• 37:29
  Also, what happened was that specific yard, they had a couple
• 37:34
  of events that I had never experienced before and one of
• 37:40
  them was at the Five Ventures event, which is the organization
• 37:43
  I work for now. They help people learn
• 37:46
  entrepreneurship skills, develop entrepreneurship mindset, and
• 37:51
  there's character building but also business building.
• 37:53
  Well, they bring people into prisons and they bring
• 37:56
  volunteers and you have these workshops and these huge events.
• 38:00
  Well, for me, being involved with those events was like
• 38:04
  transporting me for the day from prison.
• 38:07
  And that experience was something that I would hold onto
• 38:12
  when times got difficult. And really the culmination
• 38:16
  event, the graduation event is like a rocket pitch competition
• 38:19
  where you're like, it's like a Shark Tank style thing and I
• 38:22
  happen to win. I just got lucky.
• 38:24
  It was my night. I won out of my class.
• 38:26
  You told. Me about this when we talked on
• 38:27
  the phone. Can you share that a little bit
• 38:28
  because? It Yeah.
• 38:29
  So it was really. Interesting how that all worked.
• 38:31
  So in the culmination event, the graduation of the five ventures,
• 38:36
  you've been building up your business concept all this time,
• 38:38
  building up a pitch and you, you, you've developed a business
• 38:41
  model and these investors and these volunteers are going to
• 38:43
  come in and they're going to basically judge you against your
• 38:45
  peers. And you, you work through a
• 38:47
  bracket system to get to the final five.
• 38:50
  And that's all I was hoping to do.
• 38:52
  It is like the Shark Tank. It's cool.
• 38:53
  They give you feedback and you get a chance to like step into
• 38:57
  something that is different than what at least I was accustomed
• 39:00
  to at the time. And also like it's a valuable
• 39:03
  experience. There's, there's these
• 39:04
  connecting exercises with the volunteers.
• 39:06
  You realize how much you have in common with them.
• 39:08
  They realize how much they have in common with you.
• 39:11
  And so it's very expansive, right, In terms of expanding
• 39:16
  like your idea of of what the world can be.
• 39:19
  Well, I made it to the final five and I got to pitch in front
• 39:23
  of some of my loved ones that came, some of the other families
• 39:26
  that came for the other guys. I think there were like 40 or 60
• 39:29
  of us in that cohort right at that time.
• 39:31
  And then all the volunteers and I pitched against four of my
• 39:35
  friends, one of them, my best friend, and I happened to win.
• 39:40
  It was my night. It was great.
• 39:42
  That experience validated so much of what I had thought I had
• 39:47
  in me. And that experience was
• 39:50
  something that just, I took it like you, you mentioned earlier,
• 39:53
  we were talking about small wins, right?
• 39:55
  That was a big win for me. And in the time since where
• 39:58
  there's been hardship and challenge and difficulty, I've
• 40:01
  often used that as a reference for, hey, look like, no, this is
• 40:07
  just a tough time. It's not how it's always going
• 40:09
  to be because I know I've done this before, right?
• 40:11
  I can get through this. I can learn this, I can adapt, I
• 40:13
  can pivot. Beliefs are all about
• 40:17
  references, right? So true.
• 40:19
  And there was a guy that talking about all these different books.
• 40:22
  So one guy says, you know, we we do a really good job of playing
• 40:24
  the bad movie in our mind. Sure, plug it in.
• 40:28
  And and what we really should be doing is plugging in that moment
• 40:31
  that you were proud of, the one that you knew that you
• 40:33
  conquered. You did well and you made you
• 40:35
  made yourself proud. That's the movie you should be
• 40:37
  playing when you get into tough times because you know that you
• 40:40
  conquered, that you had a whatever.
• 40:41
  Everybody's got their best moment, but for whatever reason,
• 40:45
  naturally, I don't know if it's environment or whatever, we plug
• 40:48
  in bad, the bad movie instead of taking the good movie that we
• 40:52
  that gives us confidence, it gives us strength, it gives us
• 40:54
  the will to fight all those different things that happened.
• 40:56
  But I so agree with what you're saying to that.
• 41:00
  So, so so I began to build up a whole new set of references,
• 41:05
  right? And also I learned so many tools
• 41:07
  like 1 is like when I'm at my worst or most self absorbed or
• 41:12
  feeling most insecure, the the, the cure for that is go find
• 41:16
  someone to help, right? Like they call it one of the
• 41:20
  medical mental health terms is extreme self focus on a
• 41:23
  continuum. The other side of that continuum
• 41:26
  to mental health, like that's mental unwellness.
• 41:28
  Mental Wellness is on the other side of the continuum is
• 41:31
  altruism, finding someone else to help, right?
• 41:34
  And that's not just in like mental health, but also you'll
• 41:38
  find that in 12 step work, right?
• 41:41
  It's so for me, being able to do that and bring it, realizing
• 41:45
  that I had a value to give to people and I in in that I had a
• 41:49
  value to receive from people has been a cure.
• 41:51
  It's been medicine, right? And it hasn't been perfect.
• 41:54
  But you keep I keep setting these points sort of as my aims
• 41:59
  and I use these tools as I go. And so it's been successful thus
• 42:02
  far. Well, you know, I had a guy on
• 42:06
  here, Damon W, who he, he's been, he, he was sentenced to 55
• 42:12
  years. He was burglarizing things.
• 42:14
  He, he, he was, he had gotten addicted to methamphetamine.
• 42:17
  So he burglaries were feeding his habit.
• 42:21
  But you sound like the coffee bean of the book that he writes.
• 42:25
  Because oh, I know of him now. The coffee bean guy?
• 42:27
  Yeah. It's, you know, it's the, it's
• 42:29
  the egg, the carrot, and you got to be the change.
• 42:32
  The coffee bean changes the water, the otherwise the water
• 42:35
  changes the carrot makes it soft, the egg makes it hard.
• 42:39
  But his whole thing is about being of service, but being the
• 42:43
  change. And so he was the change and,
• 42:46
  and now he goes out and he talks to everybody.
• 42:50
  You know, he's he's gone all through the SEC and and football
• 42:54
  and now he's talking to corporate and whatever.
• 42:56
  But his, his thing is, is right on point, Jason, to what you're
• 43:00
  talking about is, is being able to be of service and be the
• 43:05
  change. And then that gives you this
• 43:09
  confidence that you can continue to step forward.
• 43:13
  And you know, that's one of the reasons, you know, the people
• 43:15
  always when I first got started, like why, why is this called
• 43:17
  nightmare success? Like why are those two words
• 43:20
  together? And I and I, I was when I was
• 43:22
  walking the fence of Leavenworth, I always thought,
• 43:24
  you know, what are the two words that don't go together, that are
• 43:26
  always together? And it's, it's you're walking
• 43:29
  through your nightmare to get to whatever you perceive as your
• 43:32
  success. But the nightmare is your fears,
• 43:35
  your unknowns, those things that scare you.
• 43:39
  And, you know, it makes your stomach kind of, you know, turn.
• 43:42
  But if you continue to walk through it, you find your
• 43:44
  success, whatever that is. Everybody has a different
• 43:48
  definition for their own success.
• 43:50
  But it's really, I think it's freedom and freedom to believe
• 43:54
  in yourself. And I think somehow, some way,
• 43:58
  very unbelievably, you did that while you were in after 19
• 44:04
  years, and then you started teaching other people while you
• 44:07
  were. In Yeah, yeah.
• 44:08
  So absolutely that process was the process from when I began
• 44:14
  really taking real steps to change my life to coming home
• 44:16
  was nine years, right. And I learned the entire time,
• 44:22
  one of the biggest things that I, I, I have to say that I
• 44:25
  learned was prison had always been offering me a form of
• 44:30
  salvation. There had always been
• 44:32
  opportunities. I just refused to see them for a
• 44:35
  long time because in my mind, like the world owed me
• 44:39
  something. And it should be, it should come
• 44:42
  gift wrapped like a Christmas present.
• 44:44
  Where what, what I learned by the time I left was, you know,
• 44:49
  sometimes blessings come in ways that just aren't very
• 44:51
  comfortable. And it's up to us to to utilize
• 44:55
  that and live into that and see if we can contain the blessing
• 44:59
  that's involved, right? Like, can we contain?
• 45:02
  Can we be the vessel that actually nourishes this thing
• 45:05
  and stewards it so that it can be beautiful for me and for
• 45:09
  other people, right? And so like, yeah, I, I was
• 45:13
  blessed to stay in the work. I was facilitating a lot of
• 45:17
  groups. I started developing my own
• 45:19
  programs, involved with some just amazing things, man,
• 45:22
  Miracles, miracles, right? And by the time I left, I was
• 45:26
  just, I went through a lot of hardship.
• 45:29
  Even once I had turned the page, so to speak.
• 45:31
  But by the time I left, I was just so touched and grateful to
• 45:35
  have had the experience that I've had to have the brotherhood
• 45:39
  that I had with the the men in there that were by now just so
• 45:42
  many guys really committed to changing their lives, bringing
• 45:45
  value to the outside world, living a men's and just just
• 45:50
  beautiful people, right? And so for me to go through that
• 45:53
  process with them, the struggle, the victory, I just felt really
• 45:58
  like blessed, enriched, you know?
• 46:00
  So you were going through all this, but in the meantime there
• 46:07
  was something going on to where things changed, to where there
• 46:11
  was a possibility for you to be able to have the hope that you
• 46:16
  were getting out. How did how did that all come
• 46:19
  about? So what first had to happen was
• 46:23
  I had to get commuted from life without parole to a different
• 46:27
  sentence. And when Jerry Brown was leaving
• 46:30
  the the office in 2018, yeah, I think he left in 2018.
• 46:39
  The end of it, I put in a commutation and it really, it
• 46:43
  was just a ring and a prayer. Now look, here's the deal.
• 46:47
  I had done enough things at that point to make a compelling case
• 46:51
  for myself. Was I perfect?
• 46:52
  No. Was I?
• 46:54
  Did I have 19 years of bad Rd. behind me at this point when I
• 46:57
  put in the commutation, I think I had 2223 years in.
• 47:01
  So I had a a good like chunk of time where like I'd been like
• 47:05
  significantly devoted and I had a documentation trail to show,
• 47:09
  right? And I had letters from staff and
• 47:12
  all kinds of support from the outside world, right.
• 47:15
  And so I put in for a commutation.
• 47:18
  And I think, I think when we spoke on the phone, I think at
• 47:23
  the time, right. So I think, well, I think it's
• 47:27
  like when I, when I first decided to, to change my life,
• 47:32
  I, I think I calculated it as like a 1% chance of ever having
• 47:36
  a real change of fortune in coming home with the
• 47:40
  commutation. When I put it in, I think it was
• 47:42
  like 7% of commutations at the time.
• 47:44
  I think we're getting either granted or getting the interview
• 47:49
  right. Well, then I got the interview
• 47:52
  and what the, the man told me when he came to interview me
• 47:55
  from the governor's office was that 30% of interviews get
• 47:59
  granted. So I went from 7% to 30% at that
• 48:03
  point. And then once I eventually got
• 48:06
  granted the commutation, they they did, the governor commuted
• 48:11
  me to 30 to life. And so I knew that that made me
• 48:15
  eligible for a new law to immediately go to board.
• 48:18
  And so at that time, I guess people that were going to board
• 48:21
  for their first time, it was like 66%, sixty, 8% grant.
• 48:25
  So OK, so slowly I'm just sort of playing that the numbers here
• 48:29
  in the back of my mind, right. Well, I got denied the first
• 48:33
  time I and then I waited 2018 months or something 20 months
• 48:40
  got denied again and that was a really tough denial for me.
• 48:44
  But I just stayed in the work man, like, like and even when
• 48:47
  there was times. Where is it like the movies
• 48:49
  where you go in, there's a board, got people sitting at the
• 48:53
  table, you sit down in a chair. Is it?
• 48:55
  Is it? Is it like that?
• 48:57
  I think the first time was more like that, yeah, the first time
• 48:59
  was, but the second time I went was after COVID.
• 49:02
  So they do a lot of the board stuff on monitors now.
• 49:06
  But yeah. And, and so I had done a lot of
• 49:10
  work at that point. I felt like I was ready, but
• 49:13
  they denied me. I wasn't super shocked the first
• 49:15
  time. Now the second time I went back,
• 49:18
  they denied me again, not for anything new, but they denied me
• 49:21
  for something that I had admitted in my first hearing.
• 49:24
  And they felt like not enough time had passed.
• 49:27
  And so at that point, I think this is important.
• 49:32
  I really was at odds with, with, with that in terms of like my
• 49:37
  relationship with God specifically.
• 49:39
  I was like, you know, I can't, I'm fine with God having a plan,
• 49:44
  but I, I wish he would let me in on it because I can't, I don't,
• 49:48
  Yeah. I, I can't read the tea leaves
• 49:50
  here, Right. Yeah.
• 49:52
  And most of my peers were like, dude, I can't just let.
• 49:56
  Me in Yeah, because if God. Came down and he told you you'd
• 50:01
  be cool with it, right? But because you're not getting
• 50:03
  clarity, it was it was it was challenging for me and I had a
• 50:07
  lot of conversations with my friends and a lot of them were
• 50:09
  like, they didn't understand why I've been denied either.
• 50:11
  Some of them did. But it did you know what I was
• 50:14
  left with Brent was I got to, I got to make this have value for
• 50:18
  me and other people. And so I just took it to the
• 50:21
  guys. I took it to the groups, I took
• 50:24
  it to prayer, I took it to meditation.
• 50:25
  I took it to my journal. I used all the tools.
• 50:28
  I just stayed in my rituals and my daily things to continue
• 50:32
  living into being the man that I wanted to be that could be
• 50:36
  suitable, right? And it was great because that
• 50:41
  time gave me more time to refine.
• 50:43
  It gave me more time to build, you know, build out my coaching
• 50:47
  stuff that I was using with the guys.
• 50:48
  It gave me more time to help build programs for people in
• 50:51
  prison. And yeah, it just it ultimately
• 50:54
  now I can say, hey, it was. I made the best of it.
• 50:58
  Well, what I love about it, though, Jason, is that so many
• 51:03
  times and, and you're a testament to how important hope
• 51:08
  with action is, because, you know, just having hope is nice,
• 51:11
  but you have to take action. But a lot of people will have
• 51:15
  hope and they get knocked down and, and they're like, well,
• 51:18
  that didn't work and and they lose hope.
• 51:21
  And then when they lose hope, that's the worst thing to
• 51:23
  happen. You know, we, we walked around
• 51:25
  with a lot of people in prison that had lost hope and you could
• 51:27
  just see it in their eyes. But there was something in you
• 51:31
  that that even though you were getting rejected, you weren't
• 51:36
  quitting. And, and that's, I think that's
• 51:38
  the secret recipe sauce there is that you don't quit when you get
• 51:42
  rejected. You get better, you know, you
• 51:44
  got better every time that you get rejected.
• 51:46
  And, and that's, that's something that's, that's a
• 51:49
  nugget of wisdom there that anybody who's listening to this,
• 51:53
  this goes into 800 prisons. So for those listening, don't
• 51:57
  lose hope, but you also have to take action.
• 51:59
  And and if you keep stepping, there's a good chance that your
• 52:02
  percentages like you're talking about Jason, your percentages
• 52:05
  went from 1:00 to 7:00 to 30 to 66.
• 52:09
  I think that that's a really important point.
• 52:12
  So there's a couple of things in that, right?
• 52:14
  Again, it's building the reference model for your
• 52:17
  beliefs, right? And, and in knowing you have to
• 52:20
  step in the in the faith, right? And you have to take action.
• 52:24
  We're always planting seeds. We're always creating something.
• 52:28
  So, so, OK, when I was when I was a kid and I wanted to be a
• 52:32
  gangster and I was involved with drugs, I was living my life day
• 52:35
  in and day out a certain way to where I was creating a high
• 52:39
  probability that someone was going to get hurt or I was going
• 52:41
  to get hurt. I.
• 52:43
  Don't. I don't usually talk about
• 52:45
  guarantees, but I do believe in probabilities.
• 52:47
  Once I started changing my life, I was starting to eat, sleep,
• 52:51
  breathe, living my day, day in and day out to where now I'm
• 52:55
  creating new probabilities that I'm going to have freedom of
• 52:58
  some sort, liberation of some sort, at least mentally,
• 53:00
  spiritually, right? And creating different like
• 53:05
  value in relationships. I live that way to bring that
• 53:09
  fruit, right? We're constantly planting,
• 53:13
  waiting or reaping, sometimes both.
• 53:15
  And So what you're talking about when guys quit, right?
• 53:17
  Like say they don't see the results quick enough.
• 53:21
  What I learned about this, and I learned this from my second
• 53:23
  denial. I thought that because I had
• 53:26
  been planting that I was in the, I was ready to reap at that
• 53:29
  point. But what I didn't realize was I
• 53:31
  wasn't in a reaping phase with the, with the seeds I'd been
• 53:34
  planting. I was in a waiting phase.
• 53:36
  But what I was reaping was the seeds from yesterday still.
• 53:39
  And I needed to get clear on what Phase I was in so that I
• 53:43
  didn't have frustration so that I could continue to plant the
• 53:46
  right things. Because had I given up and
• 53:48
  self-destructive or self-destructive, man, the next
• 53:51
  harvest, it would have gone a ruin, right?
• 53:54
  So we got to constantly realize like we're always creating
• 53:58
  something. What are we creating?
• 54:01
  And if we don't have a clear aim, right?
• 54:03
  And we're not committed to that aim, then what's going to happen
• 54:06
  is we can slip into what's called not just a default
• 54:09
  purpose, but a default future, right?
• 54:12
  And that's, that's a scary place to be.
• 54:14
  I've been there. So yeah.
• 54:16
  I ran across that default purpose on your Instagram.
• 54:19
  You had posted that and that's so true because if you don't
• 54:24
  have a purpose and you don't have a plan and you don't have
• 54:27
  the goals to put action into that plan, then it's, it's a
• 54:30
  default purpose and, and whatever that is happens and it
• 54:33
  might not be what you want to have happen.
• 54:35
  And I, I think also that's how people get institutionalized.
• 54:39
  You know, we talk about being people getting institutionalized
• 54:41
  in prison and, and it, it's so easy to do because you
• 54:44
  everything's, you know, counts at the same time, this is the
• 54:47
  same time, this everything is the same.
• 54:48
  I sit in this chair the same, but when I got out of prison, I
• 54:52
  started like looking around me and realizing, no, it there's a
• 54:55
  lot of people that get are institutionalized, a bad
• 54:57
  marriage, bad childhood, bad job.
• 54:59
  And they won't get out of it because, you know, it's like the
• 55:02
  guys that are afraid to get out of prison that they, they, it's
• 55:06
  such an ugly routine. They hate it.
• 55:08
  They talk about it when they get up, when they go to bed, they
• 55:11
  hate it. But it's something that gives
• 55:13
  them comfort because they know it.
• 55:15
  And, and that's the one thing that I see with people on the
• 55:18
  outside is is that they, they hate their job or they hate this
• 55:23
  or they hate that, but they won't step out of it because
• 55:25
  it's become that ugly comfort to them so that it's more
• 55:29
  comfortable to the stay and something they hate than to step
• 55:32
  something that scares them. But it's something I want to
• 55:34
  step forward to. And that's, yeah, I think that's
• 55:38
  absolutely. True and over.
• 55:40
  Yeah. And plus, like I reached the
• 55:41
  threshold, right? Like when I had my breaking
• 55:44
  moment, one of the things that I've read that I think is, is,
• 55:47
  is really valuable is you, you, the, the pain of staying the
• 55:51
  same, like the, the, the fear of change has to be outweighed by
• 55:55
  the pain of staying the same. And that's what happened for me.
• 55:58
  Like I reached the pain threshold where I had to take
• 56:01
  action, man 'cause I just couldn't do it anymore.
• 56:04
  And for some people, they haven't reached that place yet.
• 56:07
  You know, I hope that they don't ever have to and they can make
• 56:09
  the changes, but I understand it if they don't.
• 56:12
  So I think that there's a there's something to what you
• 56:14
  were just saying right there. Like we get we get comfortable
• 56:17
  in our routines. I think there's a quote, I'm
• 56:19
  going to paraphrase it. Men will like, men will like
• 56:23
  accept a level of despair and call that happiness, right?
• 56:27
  And I think that that's kind of what goes on.
• 56:28
  Like we'll get familiar with this, this this pain and we'll
• 56:31
  sort of make all these rationalizations why we can stay
• 56:33
  in it because we're just afraid to take the steps.
• 56:36
  Or maybe it's the unknown, like we don't know how to do it.
• 56:39
  But I think that the hope and that is every day we're given
• 56:42
  the opportunity to step out into discovery, right?
• 56:45
  And we can ask for help like people will help us, you know,
• 56:49
  so. And I think that's, that's
• 56:50
  another great nugget of wisdom that you're throwing out there,
• 56:54
  Jason, is that people will help you, people that I mean, we have
• 56:57
  to humble ourselves to ask for help, which is sometimes very
• 56:59
  hard to do. But for the people who are
• 57:02
  getting it right, you can look around and say, you know, that
• 57:04
  guy's getting it right. If I go talk to him and ask him
• 57:07
  how he's getting it right, there's a good chance he's going
• 57:09
  to tell me he's getting it right because he probably is pretty
• 57:11
  proud of the fact of how he's getting it right.
• 57:13
  And then once he shares that with you, he kind of takes you
• 57:16
  on because you he shared something with you of his own
• 57:19
  thing. And it almost becomes like a an
• 57:22
  automatic mentor. But I always say it's like,
• 57:24
  yeah, this was the test before the test because but you have to
• 57:26
  humble yourself first. Yeah, man, I need help.
• 57:29
  I like what he's and then I'm going to implement that back
• 57:31
  into my world. Absolutely.
• 57:34
  And I think that one of you like, one of the things that I
• 57:39
  would encourage everybody listening to is, hey, man, pick
• 57:42
  people, 10 people that you want in your network, 10 people that
• 57:44
  you want to mentor you, that you can learn from.
• 57:47
  Write them a letter and be and be really, really sincere and,
• 57:52
  and how you think that like how you admire their work, how and,
• 57:57
  and ask them how you can bring value to them.
• 57:59
  And you'd be surprised with some of the responses that you'd get,
• 58:02
  because that's what I have done and still do, and it works.
• 58:06
  And it's not, this is not something that I made-up.
• 58:08
  I just read about this in personal development books and
• 58:10
  then tried it. Most of the stuff, most of the
• 58:12
  stuff in personal development books, people never tried the
• 58:15
  stuff. But if you actually try it and
• 58:17
  don't just do it once and give up, like understand that you're
• 58:20
  building a new skill set and there's going to be a learning
• 58:22
  curve to it. But eventually you get it and
• 58:25
  it's like, bam, now that's one win, two win, three wins, four
• 58:28
  wins. Before you know it, you're
• 58:29
  standing in a whole different place with a whole different
• 58:31
  level of possibility in front of you.
• 58:33
  Yeah, beautiful. So true.
• 58:35
  And, and, and it's like anything else, you know, I, I played a
• 58:37
  lot of sports when I was growing up and you, you just don't go
• 58:40
  out and play the game. You practice.
• 58:42
  Sure, you practice, you practice and then hopefully when you get
• 58:44
  in the game, you can do what you practice.
• 58:46
  And that's what life is, is you got, you got to keep practicing
• 58:48
  and you know, you get into the game and you can perform.
• 58:52
  So you get to that 66% Jason and the you finally, you finally
• 58:58
  make it. Yeah.
• 59:00
  And I, I can't imagine like after that amount of time, what,
• 59:08
  what did you think? Like when, when when I came.
• 59:12
  Home, if they say, hey, you've, you've, you've we're going to
• 59:16
  let you go. I mean, after all this time,
• 59:19
  were you like shocked or, or were you thinking, yeah, it's
• 59:23
  time? I mean, how did your mind play
• 59:27
  that out? Actually, yeah, I was.
• 59:30
  I was, I was accepting of it. I was grateful.
• 59:37
  I was also somewhat like, I want to say very, I was very even
• 59:44
  keel like I didn't overreact or or because I wasn't sure
• 59:48
  exactly. Again, now what am I stepping
• 59:49
  into? I knew I had an idea at this
• 59:52
  point. I was.
• 59:53
  I had enough. Like what did you think you were
• 59:56
  stepping into? Because I know a lot of guys
• 59:58
  like where I was. You know, six months out guys
• 1:00:02
  would get kind of freaky. You know, it's like, Oh my gosh,
• 1:00:04
  this means that I've really, you know, you, you kind of get into
• 1:00:07
  this thing where you've been, you know, I had a five year
• 1:00:10
  sentence you were in for 28 years.
• 1:00:13
  So six months out people start this, they know what their date
• 1:00:17
  is. As they start getting a little
• 1:00:18
  freaky. It's like, I hope I've done
• 1:00:20
  enough in here to get ready to be out there.
• 1:00:23
  What was what was your thought about stepping back into the
• 1:00:26
  world after 28 years? So if I remember it correctly, I
• 1:00:30
  think that my, my main approach was I'm going to continue to do
• 1:00:34
  the things that have worked, like in terms of I'm going to
• 1:00:38
  continue to use the tools that have gotten me this place.
• 1:00:40
  I'm going to continue to have my morning rituals.
• 1:00:43
  I'm going to continue to like like center myself and, and have
• 1:00:46
  time with myself so that I can continue being the person that I
• 1:00:49
  want to be, who I want to show up as.
• 1:00:52
  But also I'm going to leave room for learning, adapting.
• 1:00:55
  I know that there's going to be challenges and struggles and I'm
• 1:00:58
  going to try to do my best to like temper that right.
• 1:01:02
  And, and, and I knew too, like there's a lot of people like
• 1:01:07
  that are rooting for me to be successful.
• 1:01:09
  And there's a lot of guys come in behind me that want to come
• 1:01:12
  home and I represent them. And so I want to do the best I
• 1:01:14
  can buy them. And yeah, I mean, that was kind
• 1:01:18
  of my general thing. But then I also knew, like,
• 1:01:20
  there's stuff I just don't even know.
• 1:01:22
  Like I can anticipate and theoretically I might understand
• 1:01:25
  something, but I could have never told you what.
• 1:01:28
  It was like the first time I stepped into a gas station and I
• 1:01:31
  saw the immense amount of things that were available.
• 1:01:35
  And it's really, it blew me away.
• 1:01:37
  It just blew me away. Like I cannot believe I can
• 1:01:40
  purchase any of these things that I want right now because
• 1:01:43
  because everything else up until then had been very restricted,
• 1:01:47
  right? So it was just A and, and I
• 1:01:49
  could anticipate that, but actually experiencing it was
• 1:01:52
  something else. So I had the self-awareness to
• 1:01:55
  kind of recognize that. And yeah, dude, like some of the
• 1:01:59
  things I mean. You just walked out a little
• 1:02:02
  over a year ago. Yeah, 14, it's been 14 months.
• 1:02:05
  14 months and and the picture that you're of the person you
• 1:02:07
  were walking out with. Who?
• 1:02:09
  Who was that that you were walking?
• 1:02:10
  Out. Oh, that's my fiance OK.
• 1:02:13
  So that had to be fantastic. Right.
• 1:02:14
  That was great. That was great.
• 1:02:17
  And she's beautiful, man. She, we've been close our entire
• 1:02:21
  lives, just about. And yeah, we're doing well,
• 1:02:25
  yeah. That's awesome.
• 1:02:27
  And and the other thing, and I know you're doing good things.
• 1:02:30
  You know, you went back, you're with the five inches that was
• 1:02:34
  part of the thing that that really you plugged into while
• 1:02:38
  you were in, which I think is so cool that now you're with a
• 1:02:41
  company that was meant something to you while you were in.
• 1:02:45
  Yeah. And you're doing things, Jason,
• 1:02:47
  that I love that you had a bucket list either written down
• 1:02:51
  or in your mind. I'm, I'm watching and seeing,
• 1:02:54
  you know, you jumping out of planes and, and, and, and, you
• 1:02:57
  know, going down in the ocean and what's all that been like?
• 1:03:01
  Oh, so, so that stuff's been amazing and fun.
• 1:03:04
  And I share the bucket list because I think it's important
• 1:03:08
  that people have dreams and have goals and then execute those
• 1:03:11
  things, right? I think that there's a value to
• 1:03:14
  that. And that's the fun stuff that I
• 1:03:15
  get to do aside from also the meaningful stuff, right?
• 1:03:20
  I think that there's a there's a huge.
• 1:03:22
  Well, tell us what? You're doing now.
• 1:03:24
  OK, So I work, I work with the five ventures.
• 1:03:27
  I'm a program manager. And so for the incarcerated
• 1:03:30
  community that comes home, if they want to build a business
• 1:03:34
  out here and get involved with our program, I'm I'm one of the
• 1:03:37
  guys that coaches them through that process.
• 1:03:39
  We have a whole system and a program in place for that.
• 1:03:43
  I also Co founded a nonprofit called re entry wheels with some
• 1:03:47
  friends. We'll be looking for funding
• 1:03:51
  soon to get that rolling where we'll be providing vehicles for
• 1:03:55
  people coming home that are. I love that because.
• 1:03:57
  That was personal to you. You you had.
• 1:04:00
  Yeah. And and you know how much that
• 1:04:03
  means you. Know, oh, it's, it's, it's, it's
• 1:04:05
  a game changer. There's a lot of people that
• 1:04:07
  when they come home, they might not have access to personal
• 1:04:10
  transportation and so they miss out on job opportunities or they
• 1:04:13
  miss out on it just makes their life a lot easier if you have it
• 1:04:16
  right. And So what we want to do is for
• 1:04:18
  people that are ready and responsible, we want to provide
• 1:04:21
  that access to them. Right.
• 1:04:24
  And then, yeah. So I got I have a book on Amazon
• 1:04:28
  called the Move Your Mountain program.
• 1:04:29
  It's just made of workshops that I created while I was in prison
• 1:04:33
  and that we were, we were holding for the guys in prison
• 1:04:36
  that I've held for people out here.
• 1:04:38
  And it's just, it's the Move Your Mountain program.
• 1:04:41
  Yeah. And it's just, it's just an
• 1:04:44
  offering for someone. If they couldn't come to the
• 1:04:45
  workshop, but they wanted to do the work, they can get into it.
• 1:04:48
  It's not, you know, it's not a bunch of stories.
• 1:04:50
  It's just brass tacks, like, let's let's roll up your sleeves
• 1:04:52
  and let's get to it. Let's go ahead.
• 1:04:54
  Yeah. Technology wise, what was that
• 1:04:57
  like after 28 years? Actually, technology, let me
• 1:05:02
  see. I've taken, yeah.
• 1:05:04
  So, so I've taken to it fairly well.
• 1:05:08
  It's pretty amazing. That said, I also realize that
• 1:05:12
  I'm constantly in a learning phase with it because it's so it
• 1:05:17
  just, it's so fast And like when you're doing documentation or
• 1:05:21
  you're using, you know, different databases that you
• 1:05:25
  have to input information into, you know, it's, it's been
• 1:05:29
  challenging for me, but I'm, I'm really grateful that I've had an
• 1:05:31
  opportunity to immerse myself in it because I'm picking it up
• 1:05:34
  fairly, fairly well. You know, I can't imagine.
• 1:05:37
  And I, and I, that's an encouragement I want to give to,
• 1:05:40
  to all the guys or, or women hearing this is don't be afraid
• 1:05:44
  of technology. Just immerse yourself in it and
• 1:05:46
  allow yourself to just experience it.
• 1:05:48
  Even the frustrations like this morning, man, I had a password
• 1:05:51
  that was driving me nuts. I can't tell you.
• 1:05:53
  That's one of the things they don't tell you is how to how to
• 1:05:56
  take care of all your passwords. And but hey, look, we got to
• 1:06:00
  learn. We got to get into it and just
• 1:06:02
  evolve and grow you. Know that's so cool.
• 1:06:06
  I, I am absolutely fascinated with your life story because
• 1:06:11
  there's so many times and places and things that it could have
• 1:06:14
  ended so badly. And, and you, you worked through
• 1:06:17
  it, Jason, to the point where I think you are an inspiration of
• 1:06:22
  people. And I hope you keep doing the
• 1:06:24
  things that you're doing because people like you are the people
• 1:06:28
  that can really make real change because you've, you've lived
• 1:06:30
  such AI mean all the way in all the way down to the rock bottom.
• 1:06:37
  And you worked your way back and, and now you're at a, a
• 1:06:40
  point where you're helping people get back on their feet
• 1:06:43
  And, and it's, it's got to feel good.
• 1:06:46
  I mean, it's got to feel like you've you've put in a lot of
• 1:06:48
  work, but the giving back part has got to really feel good to
• 1:06:52
  you. Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:06:53
  I think that that's what gives me meaning and purpose in life.
• 1:06:57
  I I realized that like for me, I have to have meaning because I
• 1:07:02
  could be surrounded by wealth and all these like opulent
• 1:07:06
  things. But it's, if it doesn't have
• 1:07:08
  meaning, then it's just going to be empty for me, right.
• 1:07:10
  And so I got to have that, yeah. I think that is something that
• 1:07:15
  might be a common denominator going to prison and that is you
• 1:07:21
  actually have a different perspective on when you get out.
• 1:07:24
  You really want to focus on things that have meaning you.
• 1:07:28
  You want to be doing something that you have a passion about
• 1:07:32
  because you feel like you, you, you had time taken away and you
• 1:07:35
  had a lot of time taken away. I felt like I was jumping and
• 1:07:39
  moving car after three years. So I can't even speak to what
• 1:07:42
  you must feel like that. But I think there's a common
• 1:07:45
  denominator of, you know, I, I think this is the 147th
• 1:07:49
  interview I've done. This is actually the end.
• 1:07:53
  This is the the interview that ends season 3.
• 1:07:56
  So we'll start Season 4 next week, but.
• 1:07:59
  Congratulations. The the thing that I think is
• 1:08:02
  that the reason why I think about all these interviews,
• 1:08:05
  these people come out and they think, man, I've got, I've got
• 1:08:08
  so much time left and I'm grateful that I have this, but I
• 1:08:11
  want to find what what's meaningful and and that's a
• 1:08:16
  narrative that people don't really know because they think
• 1:08:19
  that people who go to prison are lost forever and they're ex
• 1:08:23
  felons forever Wish that we are, but we're not lost forever.
• 1:08:26
  We, we do find our passions. We do find things that that we
• 1:08:31
  find that we want to have meaning.
• 1:08:33
  And, and I also think that one thing I hope I don't lose is,
• 1:08:38
  you know, I just got back from from my youngest daughter
• 1:08:40
  getting married. And, you know, one of the things
• 1:08:43
  that I was thinking was when I was walking down that aisle is
• 1:08:45
  to thank God I'm here, You know, thank God I'm here and I'm not
• 1:08:49
  in prison. And the moment you know that
• 1:08:52
  that is, you know, we, we had these moments that I think some
• 1:08:58
  people take for granted, but we have moments that you got to
• 1:09:01
  just stop and think, man, OK, this is good, this is good.
• 1:09:04
  This is a lot better for sure than that other place.
• 1:09:07
  But I think you've done so well with that, Jason, and you've
• 1:09:11
  done it so quickly because a lot of guys have a really, really
• 1:09:15
  hard time getting out, you know, re entry's, hard re entry's.
• 1:09:19
  But I think that you had planned so well in your mind and what
• 1:09:22
  you're doing with your programming and, and everything
• 1:09:24
  that you're doing, you just stepped into it and it maybe
• 1:09:28
  felt more familiar to you than somebody who hadn't planned.
• 1:09:31
  And that's one of the things that you know, as people are
• 1:09:33
  listening to this that are in the prisons, man, put don't
• 1:09:36
  waste your time while you're in because it's going to be hard
• 1:09:39
  when you get out. So make sure that you don't
• 1:09:41
  waste the time when you're in so that you can get out and you
• 1:09:43
  have a plan. And I think that's one of the
• 1:09:45
  things you've only been out 14 months and I think you've
• 1:09:48
  stepped into society in a way that it's the way you want to
• 1:09:52
  step back. Yeah, I, I, I hope so.
• 1:09:56
  I think so. And I hope I continue to do
• 1:09:58
  that. I think that one of the, one of
• 1:10:01
  the two things I, I'd never look at it like I lost time.
• 1:10:05
  I look at it like I spent my time and I got, I got, I got
• 1:10:09
  from it what I got from it, right.
• 1:10:12
  And I have value in that to give to others to share with others.
• 1:10:16
  That's a big statement too. So you feel like you didn't lose
• 1:10:19
  time? Because.
• 1:10:22
  Yeah. I'm 47. 47.
• 1:10:25
  Yeah, I never, I, I almost never tell myself that story, right.
• 1:10:30
  I always look at it like I spent my time and I got value from
• 1:10:33
  that and I now I have value to give.
• 1:10:36
  Secondly, I I never look at it like I did this all myself.
• 1:10:41
  I was, I put in work, but I was also surrounded by beautiful
• 1:10:44
  people. I think that there was a higher,
• 1:10:49
  you know, higher power involved. Like I, I was, I was blessed.
• 1:10:52
  There was opportunities that came my way, just all kinds of
• 1:10:55
  things that it was those guys. Being.
• 1:10:59
  What's that was? It hard to leave those guys
• 1:11:02
  being there as long as you were that really some of those guys
• 1:11:05
  become family to you. Yeah, absolutely difficult.
• 1:11:08
  But also I want to set the table for them when they come home,
• 1:11:10
  right? And I'm going to stay in contact
• 1:11:13
  with them and just be a source of encouragement for them until
• 1:11:17
  they do right. And that's, that's part of part
• 1:11:20
  of my mission. And so again, like, I, I think
• 1:11:24
  that no person does this alone. You got to realize like you,
• 1:11:28
  you, you have a community that's available for you.
• 1:11:31
  And even if you feel isolated, let's really look at that.
• 1:11:34
  What's the script involved? And then how can you connect to
• 1:11:38
  others? What, how can you bring value to
• 1:11:40
  them? Who can you help solve a
• 1:11:41
  problem? And even if it's only one
• 1:11:43
  person, one can lead to two can lead to four can lead to 8.
• 1:11:46
  Right before you know it, again, you're standing in a completely
• 1:11:49
  different place with a completely different
• 1:11:51
  relationship to the world, other people and yourself.
• 1:11:54
  But it really starts, it starts with us, like just taking an
• 1:11:58
  accounting and saying, Hey, I'm going to take the next step
• 1:12:01
  forward. That's that's that's the best I
• 1:12:03
  got. Well, Tony Robbins needs you on
• 1:12:05
  stage, Jason. That's what.
• 1:12:07
  He does that's. What's his next deal?
• 1:12:09
  He needs Jason and Holland on stage.
• 1:12:12
  Well, after all this stuff that you've been through, Jason, what
• 1:12:17
  do you think's your biggest take away through the whole thing?
• 1:12:21
  Oh gosh, yeah. I think, I think my biggest,
• 1:12:29
  I'll say one of them, the one that comes to mind, we are
• 1:12:34
  constantly being afforded an opportunity and we have a choice
• 1:12:39
  with how we choose to utilize that.
• 1:12:43
  Prison was always offering me something.
• 1:12:45
  My childhood, my past was always offering me something.
• 1:12:47
  There was gold there if I was willing to look and refine it.
• 1:12:52
  At this point where I am now, I realize that.
• 1:12:55
  And so every day, every moment, I'm given an opportunity to use
• 1:13:00
  something to enrich the lives of others and thus myself.
• 1:13:04
  What that requires, that requires awareness, that
• 1:13:07
  requires creativity, that requires patience and humility,
• 1:13:11
  right? It requires all these character
• 1:13:13
  traits that I need to have and I need to employ in order to make
• 1:13:17
  the most of the moment that's being afforded to me.
• 1:13:21
  And so I think we are never at a loss for opportunity no matter
• 1:13:26
  where you are. And, but you have to choose to
• 1:13:31
  see that and then do the work to sort of make it so.
• 1:13:36
  And sometimes that feels like you're just trudging a lonely
• 1:13:39
  path, but there's options. There's options to that.
• 1:13:43
  So that's that's, that's one of my biggest takeaways.
• 1:13:46
  I think it's an awesome take away, awesome take away.
• 1:13:48
  And and tell us again the Amazon how we find that on Amazon.
• 1:13:52
  What's the name of that again? Yeah, it's the Move Your
• 1:13:54
  Mountain program by Jason S Holland, and it's just on
• 1:13:59
  Amazon, you know? Yeah.
• 1:14:01
  Folks out there, don't forget to follow, subscribe, share, like,
• 1:14:04
  comment. That's all good stuff.
• 1:14:06
  I love it when you guys do that. Talking about being grateful.
• 1:14:09
  Homestead Financial lets me use this studio here in the the
• 1:14:13
  fancy lights and the cameras and that.
• 1:14:16
  So if you've got any home mortgage needs, Greg FDF is
• 1:14:19
  definitely your guy. He knows it backwards and
• 1:14:21
  forwards. I've got a book out there,
• 1:14:23
  nightmare success. Check it out.
• 1:14:24
  It's on Amazon, Barnes and Noble.
• 1:14:28
  Leave a review on Apple if you got time.
• 1:14:30
  Those are great. I've got a new website
• 1:14:33
  outtherebrentcassidy.com. It's where the Ty, not a DYI
• 1:14:36
  spell it wrong, as I used to say when I was writing my emails
• 1:14:40
  back and forth from Leavenworth. Stay strong, I'll do the same.
• 1:14:42
  Jason Holland, man, keep doing what you're doing you.
• 1:14:45
  Me too, Brent. Thank you, all of us.
• 1:14:47
  Thank you so much. Really appreciate you having me
• 1:14:50
  and good luck to everyone listening to this.
• 1:14:52
  Stay focused guys. I'm your success in and out.