Latest / Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness: 250 Years of the Declaration of Independence / Revolution 250: America's Independence Story at The National Archives

Transcript

Revolution 250: America's Independence Story at The National Archives · Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness: 250 Years of the Declaration of Independence

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Know how we've been wanting in attention to our British brethren.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: They too have being deaf, To the voice of justice and of consanguinity.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: We must therefore acquiesce In a necessity which denounces our separation And hold them as behold The rest Of mankind enemies in war in peace.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: friends
• 0:27
  Speaker 0: Welcome to life liberty in the pursuit of happiness.
• 0:29
  Speaker 0: A podcast commemorating the two hundred fifty year anniversary of the Declaration of Independence.
• 0:35
  Speaker 0: The show is sponsored by the American Centrum in Hamburg, Germany.
• 0:38
  Speaker 0: And I'm your host Andrew Sola.
• 0:40
  Speaker 0: Here's a question to begin our episode today.
• 0:44
  Speaker 0: How did the world learn about the Declaration of Independence?
• 0:48
  Speaker 0: Well this is the story On the night of the Fourth Of July, seventeen seventy-six After Congress had approved on final text A handwritten copy was sent to a local Philadelphia printer By John Dunlap.
• 1:05
  Speaker 0: Mr.
• 1:05
  Speaker 0: Dunlap works throughout the night printing about two hundred copies of The Declaration for distribution around the colonies and indeed, around
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: the world.
• 1:14
  Speaker 0: These are called THE DUNLAP broadsides.
• 1:18
  Speaker 0: From these original two-hundred broadsids newspapers were able to print thousands and thousands of additional copies.
• 1:25
  Speaker 0: The first American newspaper to publish the text of The declaration was the Pennsylvania Evening Post.
• 1:31
  Speaker 0: on the sixth of July General George Washington ordered that the declaration be read to his troops in New York City on the ninth of July, and the British general William Howe who was commander-in chief of The British Army in North America learned about the Declaration probably around this same time.
• 1:51
  Speaker 0: Howe then sent copies back to London and British newspapers started reporting on the Declaration within weeks and so word of American independence began to spread around the world.
• 2:04
  Speaker 0: But back to the Dunlap broadsides, there are only about twenty-six known copies of The DunlAP Broadsides in existence today And many of them are at the British National Archives In Kew England.
• 2:18
  Speaker 0: I'm very excited because i have two expert guests from The National Archives To talk with me about their collection as well as their upcoming exhibit about the Declaration of Independence at The Archives.
• 2:33
  Speaker 0: Links to that will be in the show notes, but here with me today are two archival historians at the National Archives Dr.
• 2:40
  Speaker 0: Graham Moore and Dr.
• 2:41
  Speaker 0: Sean Cunningham.
• 2:43
  Speaker 0: Welcome gentlemen.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Hello
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Thank you for having us.
• 2:47
  Speaker 0: Well thanks for being here.
• 2:49
  Speaker 0: Why don't we just start by talking these precious copies of the Declaration Of Independence That You Have At The National Archives?
• 2:57
  Speaker 0: How did you acquire them?
• 2:58
  Speaker 0: Why are they significant and how do you preserve
• 3:00
  Speaker 0: then?".
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: So we
• 3:02
  Speaker 0: have,
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: at the National Archives here six early copies of The Declaration of Independence.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: Well five early copies.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: on one copy from that We have three of the original Philadelphia Dunlap prints.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: You also have very mysterious Baltimore Dunlop print which was printed shortly afterwards And a Hugh Gaine print as well And we also now hold a version that was laid before the House of Lords, couple years later on as well.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Our Philadelphia Dunlaps were all sent to Britain by various colonial officials and military officers active in North America at the time.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: for example We have The earliest one that was sent back Was sent
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: On
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: the twenty-eighth July seventeen seventy six By Vice Admiral Howe To Richard Stevens the Secretary of the Admiralty In Britain.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: We also have a copy that was enclosed in the letter to George Germain by Lord Dunmore, the governor of Virginia on the fourth August of this year.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: On top we now have a final done-lap copy which has been found more recently from a visitor to The National Archives, which was enclosed and sent privately via merchant in Philadelphia into one his contacts at Amsterdam.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: And finally, on top of that as well we
• 4:21
  Speaker 0: have
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: a version which was enclosed in a letter by the so-called Peace Commissioners to America.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: That's Richard and William Howe – The Two Brothers won as General and Commander-in-Chief at the Army and one as Vice Admiral and commander-in chief with Navy in the area.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: George Germain at the time was Secretary of State for the Colonies, so he was responsible to manage all Britain's colonies.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: Particularly American colonies and he was secretary of state for the colonies from seventeen seventy-five to seventy eighty two.
• 5:00
  Speaker 0: Okay did any of this come as a surprise?
• 5:03
  Speaker 0: I
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: think so.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: The tone we get from the letters that they're enclosed with is sort of along lines on this most recent instalment in a long list, what they would view as colonial misdeeds by the rebels in America.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: They don't seem too surprised at the concept of independence but i dont' think their convinced it's going to be a permanent problem view from the British perspective that this will be resolved.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: It is, of course a change in gear though very much this sort of tone shift and we go from earlier communications by the Continental Congress for example back to Britain where they communicate the British colonial system, simply on better terms.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: And then this shifts now with Declaration of Independence where they are talking about a full removal from the British Colonial System and becoming a nation in their own right.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: I suppose that shift from the tone of The Oliver Branch petition pretty much year earlier to the declaration might have come as rather rapid change of emphasis belief and certainly when we see the tone that Franklin had at the Staten Island peace conference which how goes to, which I think triggers some of these declarations being sent as evidence of that sudden more kind of resistant and resilient American view their own status.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: That suddenly causes this flurry of postings back from various colonial officials, various military officials.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: so but the attempt to negotiate a piece on its appearance suggests that British were slightly concerned of how it might accelerate from that point, and how it may be an inspiring statement.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: So I think this is where the attention that The British Give It generates – it's the reaction looking at what the immediate future might inspire.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: I would say actually there are two comments Having their letter alongside when they enclose the declaration.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: quite person there They say that it is our duty to equate your lordship.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: That on the fourth of July last, The General Congress declared independence.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: But they also talk about how this is affecting their negotiations.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: So they have a quote in that letter where they talked about How George Washington will no longer receive letters from two Of them unless I'm quoting here again the superscription specify his military titles, which of course would have been revoked when he entered rebellion against the crown.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: So they are now seeing this shift to sort of self-actualization on behalf America, which is changing the way that they had to negotiate.
• 7:47
  Speaker 0: Fascinating!
• 7:48
  Speaker 0: And in your exhibit at The National Archives coming up... Are we going be able see letters that were enclosed with the Declaration of Independence as well?
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: We're actually not planning those for display, although I can say that one of the declarations is going on loan to The United States and Museum of American Revolution.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: And they will also be showing there letters.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: it was enclosed within... ...and that's a letter written by the Philadelphia Merchant who closed a copy of the declaration in Amsterdam.
• 8:22
  Speaker 0: Okay we are gonna get back too but i do wanna talk just little bit here at the start about the exhibit, and then we'll talk more about some of the other historical aspects that are interesting to you.
• 8:35
  Speaker 0: So can one of you just talk a little bit?
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: So the exhibition we're planning is called Revolution to fifty and it's going to tell the story of The American revolution starting in seventeen sixty three at the Treaty of Paris At the end of the seven years war.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: I'm ending with another treaty of Paris in seventeen eighty-three at the End of the American Revolutionary War.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: And what were really looking out here?
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: Is What changes over this twenty year period to have this escalation of dissent and discontent in the American colonies.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: But we're also very interested how these sort-of boiling pot of ideas about life, liberty & pursuit of happiness that are referenced in The Declaration of Independence How different people are interpreting those over a twenty year period?
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: We look at a variety perspectives from rebels or patriots to loyalists and British, Indigenous nations and enslaved people over the course of our exhibition.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: And we think about how they interpret these ideas that are expressed in the Declaration.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: as this ongoing crisis deepens
• 9:46
  Speaker 0: North
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: America.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: It's really a story.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: decline, I suppose a rapid decline from the high point of at the end of The Seven Years War pushing the French out of the Thirteen Colonies and that threat disappearing.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: And then there's sudden pressure that they're then exercised by Westminster to buy London across Atlantic too To change the way the colonies sit in relation to Motherland Britain.
• 10:12
  Speaker 0: That
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: causes a rapid shift in perspective.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: The way Washington talks about and Jefferson talk about the Anne Franklin, that the colonial kind of contribution to our seven years war American in Indian War protecting their own frontiers.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: And keeping that part of the Empire safe for Britain.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: suddenly the pressure to repay some those costs with a pressure for taxation.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: it certainly causes quite a rapid shift across the board as these points of acceleration through this twenty years where we can really see individual actions or pieces of legislation causing an immediate response on the streets or in people's minds.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: So it is setting that scene for the decline and eventual expulsion of the British from the Thirteen Colonies, how that changes the balance of The Empire obviously staying in Canada & Spanish in the South & In the West.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: So it's a crucial twenty years in establishment on how Britain sees itself in the world, how they relate to France & Spain & Holland & other countries but then incorporating this new republic across the Atlantic.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: now that changes dynamics of Britain's self perception as well.
• 11:21
  Speaker 0: Yeah, I often think of the period for say ten years after The Seven Years War as actually a battle Of historical narrative which is something that we see.
• 11:31
  Speaker 0: you know archivists preserving On one hand.
• 11:34
  Speaker 0: You have the British and the British army And the British Navy saying well We clearly won the seven-years war but the you know George Washington in the colonial militia and their regimental State militias or state armies, however you want to
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: call them
• 11:49
  Speaker 0: thought that they were responsible for winning the war.
• 11:52
  Speaker 0: And they didn't like the fact that the professional British soldiers and the British government felt that basically... They're carrying water through victory over
• 12:02
  Speaker 0: France.".
• 12:03
  Speaker 0: That narrative did actually drive much of the conflict in those intervening years.
• 12:09
  Speaker 0: We are going talk more about it but I just kind have a amateur question about preserving documents.
• 12:17
  Speaker 0: First of all, it's always amazing that we have these archives and you know a document from seventeen seventy six is printed on paper.
• 12:26
  Speaker 0: I don't know what kind of paper or anything like that.
• 12:28
  Speaker 0: so how does the pieces of paper actually just survive Right, and how quickly do they start deteriorating?
• 12:37
  Speaker 0: And how quickly say did you realize in the government records in seventeen seventy six that these need to be preserved and kept.
• 12:45
  Speaker 0: We still have them today.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: well there are specific series which is collections of colonial papers from America under West Indies as I called so.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: most of them are in a series called C O five Which has a lot correspondence but a lot of enclosures a lot maps should been extracted.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: So these arrived as, I suppose working papers in the nineteenth century from various government record stores.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: Our archive was established by an act of parliament in the eighteen thirties but not actually physically built at a building till the eighteenth fifties.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: so there is process assessment preparation and then transfer into to create the archive itself.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: In that intervening period allot of this paper were taken out their
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: packets
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: they flattened They were bound into volumes effectively in date order to create an artificial sequence, which is very much the Victorian kind of approach.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: To synthesizing diverse collections.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: they did it with Henry VIII.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: state papers literally created a sequence from an artificial point of view that didn't really reflect the dynamics or the provenance of those letters.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: so to some extent The CO-V material also loses that connection to the processes and people in places that helped create this archive.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: And within it there's a lot of private papers, we do call them official paper as private papers... There is an overlap between how officials, colonial officials or military people can consider their positions.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: what are they personal correspondence?
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: What is their private correspondents?
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: So alot of these lumped together.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: some of its survives in related series but classified as private pages because gifted or deposited at later times, often in place of inheritance taxes from the great families who were involved with conflict and colonial architects.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: All together we've got this merged collection.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: so it's managed as all other papers now kept in temperature, humidity controlled repositories fully logged into an archival retrieval system to see if they're produced and that dictates how we manage the space, and locating them near their reading rooms.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: A lot of this material has been digitized on big academic websites by companies like Adam Matthew & ProQuest which is basically taking him out to immediate access online.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: so it's paywall supplied information but obviously they're still free-to view in building here at Kew So anyone can come look for these materials.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: We've had to sift through many thousands of letters and link them to the story, what you want tell.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: And obviously we're pitching The Exhibition as a public event which will hopefully tell a story that a lot of British people aren't very familiar with because this has not really appeared... ...which is very prominent in our education system at the moment.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: so hopefully we are going change peoples minds about how America & Britain were related through these conflict then rather swift resolution into a more harmonious relationship, but in that sense it's really exciting to be able to dive into this collection.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: To find some very hidden stories especially around about world of women and indigenous nations black loyalists and enslaved people who are a strong part of the visibility of the collection how those stories kind of accessed so as well The familiar narrative of the battles and ideas, individuals who everybody knows about.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: We're trying to see how it affected individuals a lot more And people had to make decisions on what was right in front as events unfolded around them.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: So we go up-and down the social scale, travel across the whole of the thirteen colonies To get this sense that draws peoples attention How they made tough decisions and consequences.
• 16:43
  Speaker 0: Very interesting Sean.
• 16:45
  Speaker 0: I'm interested also in learning a little bit about how you're going to present the actual parchment, the actual document itself.
• 16:53
  Speaker 0: This is extremely fragile right?
• 16:56
  Speaker 0: So what is the process of taking this out?
• 16:58
  Speaker 0: its sort of Fort Knox of archives.
• 17:03
  Speaker 0: and these are valuable documents too monetarily valuable but also extremely valuable for history And they can't be mishandled.
• 17:12
  Speaker 0: so How Are You Managing All Of That?
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: So for valuable documents like this and not just because of their monetary value, but also the historical value And the fact that they might be particularly delicate we do Usually extract these documents from there.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: The boxes They would ordinarily be stored in In the Colonial Office series as Sean discusses various amounts of conservation work, not always in the way that we do it now though.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: And so these are printed materials.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: they're printed on reasonably high quality paper In Philadelphia and in July seventy six...and They actually still have very good shape today.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: there's fold lines for example where they've been folded up into letters that were posted.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: All of ours are false paper.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: There's a few versions that I know which are only half remains, all the full thing.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: but they do have places where they've needed to tear repairs along those fold lines and things like that.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: But couple decades ago They were also mounted on sort-of a paper backing With little gaps left so you can see when things had been written in the back.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: there is some really interesting details.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Where they talk about this is enclosure number three for example my letters.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: And with those remain, you can still see those.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: But the problem without backing now is that we have teams of heritage scientists here at The National Archives who are doing lots a really interesting work... ...with various scientific instruments looking at these documents and documents like this and what we'd really like to do is get a sense of where, for example in the print order all the original Dunlap printings these are.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: And one way to do that would be to look at the impressions of the printing self.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: so this sort of depth with the impression of the prints to my understanding allows you make decisions about whether you think it was an early use or later used as the printing block.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: We now can't do very easily because they've been mounted on paper.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: So sometimes efforts to conserve can slightly impede Historic research later down the line.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: But of course, it does also mean that people can view and handle them more easily.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: an access those records here
• 19:30
  Speaker 0: And we'll be able to see them at the exhibit.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: Yes originals We will be displaying one original here in the exhibits.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: others are going out on loan.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: two other institutions The American Museum in Bath for example Here in Britain is also displaying one of our copies over the next year But we will have a copy on display here.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: So the copy where displaying is going to be the one that was enclosed by vice admiral.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: how so he was the one who sent to the Admiralty secretary Richard Stevens and that it's the version with us.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: play
• 20:03
  Speaker 0: nice.
• 20:05
  Speaker 0: quick question again technical about the ink.
• 20:08
  Speaker 0: what does the challenge of preserving Inc.
• 20:10
  Speaker 0: over all this time?
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: I think you're quite stable in paper because it gets absorbed.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: I think on parchment it's a little bit tricky because it sits more on the surface so its easier to scrape off or be accidentally knocked-off which we find with our earlier records of animal skins.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: But if paper is good quality and not allowing a lot bleeding into the ink fibres, that means good printing paper allows that to be stable as long as the conditions for their material are then stable.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: I think there's obviously been an interim period where these were you know pasted towards and gates pulled off, some people might have acquired them in very different circumstances than simply having office copy handed without it being exposed any other environmental factors.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: so now its very stably kept.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: So i think in terms of preservation Clearly, the fact that so few have survived means that the other hundred and sixty or so had an unfortunate history probably in the twenty years after they were produced.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: And who knows?
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: There might still be others.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: I think The most recent one we found was in two thousand eight.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: So there's always a chance that correspondence letter packets... ...and transmission of papers across the sea will reveal other enclosures in the future, so fingers crossed that there might be more to be found.
• 21:34
  Speaker 0: Well I'm quite fascinated that so many have survived given how delicate the medium is.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: i think that speaks a little bit of importance which they were considered at the time and this information needs to be sent higher up the political chain.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: So people need to know what is happening on the ground circulated.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: the information in them is as important to physical object.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: and clearly, you know we see people writing out text again including sections of letters finding its way into different documents extracts so well.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: The consciousness what this declaration implies it's kind picked apart too that you can see the bones of statement reappearing either changes of emphasis or different sympathies.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: We have a big collection of intercepted material from the autumn of Seventy-five through to summer, Autumn of Seventy-six when The British are really quite keen to hear about how declaration might be changing or what.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: But the route for declaration may change people's opinions.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: so in that sense you can see why there were important records found and analysed I suppose by people in colonial towns.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: From a record context perspective, the enclosure of documents like Declaration of Independence is not unusual.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: in these kind of dispatches we see to The Colonial Secretary and to the Admiralty secretary.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Things Like that for example the version That Is transmitted by the Howl Brothers as peace commissioners.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: they also enclose various other things In that same letter.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: there's A New York Gazette copy from the twenty-second Of July For Example which discusses sort of establishment of new government structures in the state the colony of New York at the time.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: So our documents are filled with various other pieces of paper, colonial printing things like that.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: The word being sent back is sort-of standard procedure.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: It just so happens.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: obviously now the importance and the perceived value political ideological historical value of declaration independence Is higher than some material And at a time they also recognized it as moment to sort of change an approach by the rebels.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: But that explains why it has been extracted and other things might not have, but there is a large amount of original American printing also in our archives as well?
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: I think we can see some of the comments on the enclosures and letters surrounding these documents saying this document now allowing say The Assembly in Virginia or New York how it will adjust itself to become more of an independent body.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: So the British governing officials are more concerned about how that structurally changes, how they must approach people they're now at and negotiating with or beginning to think about a military action against... And then again have that will inspire the population to begin to flip out their colonial position into a kind of patriotic position.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: so its important as a flag I guess for how The British Will React to the unfolding circumstances and that it inspires.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: And in that sense, is important.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: but I think they see as another example of kind of flexing within the Continental Congress about how its gonna find his way into a position to resist British ideologically intellectually as well sort of politically.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: so now since it's showing her good sophistication at everybody use working with them with the ideas of things like common sense.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: So they know how this is being framed, but it's how the British suddenly have to react quite swiftly to what it implies?
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: I think so.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: and from a British perspective –from that sort-of state perspective–they're very interested in who might be for or against us in the colonies.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: still...I mean…this The British strategy certainly for the early years of war and actually later on as they pivot towards a more southern theatre, is where might we find loyalist support?
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: And what might be fine?
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: more entrenched rebellion ideas or rebellion.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: So by feeding back ideas like this by talking about things like the Declaration Of Independence By intercepting people's letters reading how their responding to things like that.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: The government Is able To make these tactical decisions and redirect Their efforts.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: not always as well advised, but that is the plan behind it.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: Trying to avoid being captured.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: so in that sense It inspires activity.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: then that creates other records which really interesting because it shows How up and down the social scale, its changing people's minds about where they sit in this political unfolding event.
• 26:58
  Speaker 0: Well.
• 26:58
  Speaker 0: This is a story of intelligence gathering as well.
• 27:03
  Speaker 0: Where has your intercepting letters?
• 27:05
  Speaker 0: And creating lists of people?
• 27:08
  Speaker 0: you're gathering intelligence for decision-makers who are thousand
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: miles
• 27:12
  Speaker 0: away, and that's the other fascinating part of this story.
• 27:16
  Speaker 0: Of how this document travels from fairly rapidly From a colonial outpost in Philadelphia to the center of The Empire.
• 27:26
  Speaker 0: I want to talk a little bit more about these intercepted letters.
• 27:30
  Speaker 0: First are we going to see any of these?
• 27:32
  Speaker 0: In the exhibit?
• 27:33
  Speaker 0: And secondly did the people whose letters were intercepted ever get those letters or where they just stolen?
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: I'm really glad you asked this because it's kind of a pet project of mine, which is that we have several different types of intercepted letters actually for this period at the National Archives.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: We are displaying various ones of these.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: i'll go through them in order.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: so The first thing but we have very large amount off in co five is several boxes of letters that were intercepted by the post office.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: And at this time in The Colonial Period, starting after the Seven Years War really... ...the Post Office is running packet ships which transport official letters to and fro across Atlantic.. ..and these go from sort-of key ports & key colonies.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: What people in both the American colonies and Britain quickly realise.... ....is a very fast and reliable method of transporting your letters So for a fee and reasonably steep, which does limit who is using the service merchants.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: And other persons of note or perceived notes in the colonies and Britain start using this as well?
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: Then in response to this, The British government realizes that This Is A Large Source Of Untapped Information.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: so what they started do?
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: issue warrants to intercept letters from these package ships.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: And Sean touched on this briefly a moment ago, but we have two particularly notable collections for the American Revolution one from late seventeen seventy-five when the British government is targeting information largely about where loyalists are and also about responses to the rebel invasion of Quebec.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: And we also have a collection, which goes through seventeen seventy six where they're much more interested in what's happening New York.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: Which of course at this point is potential target for the British sort of strike back.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: and it was so in Philadelphia with second Continental Congress as very busy thinking about things like independence on.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: these letters were picked up from the package ships that are coming across the Atlantic.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: all those packages go into Falmouth in Cornwall South West England.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: The letters are taken from Falmouth to London, where all of them were opened and Post Office clerks had to go through.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: There's a really nice quote by one of the post office secretaries talking about how he'd just have the busiest morning in his life doing this.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: And then what they do is... They find interesting bits which they think the colonial secretaries for example ministers will be interested on to different pieces of paper, very rarely with the post office do they keep original letter.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: And then they stuff letters back into their packets and send them one which ends up.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: my possibly favorite part is that in second set you get people saying I'm pretty sure my letters have been intercepted so hope this!
• 30:34
  Speaker 0: Oh dear as your telling a interesting story i kept thinking about Stasi And there's special letter opening devices where they would have a steamer that wouldn't allow them to open the letters and read everyone's postage.
• 30:47
  Speaker 0: Then it made me think, of course... Well maybe The Colonials were right about rebelling against an out-of-the-field game player!
• 30:55
  Speaker 0: But what about SEALs?
• 30:57
  Speaker 0: What about the SEALS?
• 30:58
  Speaker 0: I mean wasn' t common to seal these with a wax seal?
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah because individual letters might be sent as groups and numbered so they'd be ready in order And I think the packets themselves would have to be sealed relatively waterproof.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: To know that they had heading on a wet ship deck potentially, so there's various steps that have to taken either go underneath front of seal and leave it off then replace exactly so you can't see any bleed in paper.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: Wax is very brittle but meant broken for proper reasons.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: So obviously there was sophistication going here which is an attempt to disguise it as well.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: So I guess the clerks have got some rather crafty guys doing the seal breaking and re-applying the seals, too!
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: Or not so crafty because they do seem aware that this is happening in their letters.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: It's actually a really interesting opportunity for us to talk about other intercepted letter type documents.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: we have at National Archives large vast amount of letters, thousands of letters from prize papers.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: Some are which will also be displaying in the exhibition.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: so we're displaying some of those.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: just
• 32:14
  Speaker 0: explain what a prize paper is for the audience please.
• 32:16
  Speaker 0: yes.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: and so Prize Papers are papers that have taken from ships taken as prize and so captured by naval vessels or privateers during times at war.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: And the important thing about this is that you can make a lot of money by capturing prior ships, but you have to prove it's an enemy ship.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: The way we do this is by retaining all paper work on that ship whether that be the ship's papers itself saying who owns where its sailed from and whose crewing it or their papers on the ship about merchant goods which are what you want confiscated Or indeed all the private papers on a ship because if they case gets contested, you can look through those as well and start thinking about who is on this ship.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: And do they have affiliations with say The Rebels in America or later on French?
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: An All of This Is Part Of A Quite Lengthy Legal Process To Prove Whether A Ship Is Good Prize And Good Prize.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: Just Beans.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: Yes You Can Capture And Profit Off This Ship.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: So What We Have From That Is Essentially People Capturing These Ships.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: so Your naval captains, your privateer captains would take all of the paperwork they could find and quite often people on those ships might be trying to throw it overboard beforehand or they can get to it in order to prove this process.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Which means that here at The National Archives we have these boxes and sacks and bundles of peoples' private letters who are being sent on these ships because the main way to send a letter overseas at the time was just put out onto next ship going towards the port closest where you wanted them and so on, have these letters on them.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: And there's some really interesting finds in that!
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: My favourite one we're going to display is a copy of a letter from Adrienne de Lafayette – this is the Marquis de lafayettes' wife.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: two are the marquis de Laffayette.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: she's writing from Bordeaux speaking up to her husband about how the French had just entered the war.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: So it's very personal talking.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: She misses him talking about their daughter who was born just before he left to go originate as a private soldier.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: To America, but also she's talked about these sort of momentous events as well off the French fleet which has been dispatched too.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: The Americas.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: so it is really amazing.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: blend this with private impacts and war that you get in his personal letters more so how people react to these big events.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: what we are doing in this project as well is We're looking at the Revolutionary War period to see exactly what kind of materials could come out of the ships, the French ships and then American vessels that were intercepted and captured by British Navy.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: And there's going be a lot information which we can't include in the exhibition but we are hoping it will bring on to events around the period exhibition is running for basically highlights some stories about evacuations from not just New York but Charlestown places where theres loyalist population who leaving a paper trail or it's being intercepted by Americans and those American ships are being captured.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: So there is rather complicated paper trail to follow through the prize process in legal aspects of this, but I think we're going find many more voices people impacted by war than choices they had made.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: so that was really exciting because this material literally hasn't been opened since originally dispatched.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: It has new archival materials for everybody.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: We're working with the University of Oldenburg in Germany as well.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: It's a twenty year project, so we are cataloging all this material to be searchable on our catalogue online and also it is being digitised aswell So people can read stuff from their comfort at home which is really exciting.
• 35:59
  Speaker 0: I just recall that, in some cases with the taking of these prizes and the various captureings and recaptureings.
• 36:08
  Speaker 0: It's one my favorite stories.
• 36:09
  Speaker 0: but some sailors changed side twenty times during the Revolutionary War And as some ships were captured multiple time so all this letters would be.
• 36:18
  Speaker 0: you know maybe an American privateer captured a ship going back to Falmouth then it was recaptured before made again and somehow ends up somewhere.
• 36:31
  Speaker 0: But I have another question about those letters that your nefarious spy service was opening up, so they're keeping track of as they should of patriot rebels?
• 36:43
  Speaker 0: i'm curious though Are they keeping track of these people as being potentially problematic radicals the people receiving The letters and how is that then working out?
• 36:58
  Speaker 0: because presumably these people in Britain?
• 37:00
  Speaker 0: Receiving the letters are subjects as well, but they also have rights.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: They do yes And this is a function of the warrant system that's required to open with his letters Which seems to be I would say loosely interpreted at times.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: But what they have to do is suggest that they think someone has a person of interest in some kind of sedition or similar at either end, which does mean that they are targeting certain persons on both sides of the Atlantic.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: For example we have an entire box of Benjamin Franklin's letters from the time he was touring around Britain and I think just before he goes to France.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: actually where their really monitoring what hes doing trying to work out who is talking.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: He's obviously a person, though.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: And we'll be displaying one of his letters too but there are other people on both sides who they're interested in for example In Britain There is People like Henry Kruger.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: um he Is an MP A Wig MP For Bristol and he is One Of the MPs Members of Parliament Who Are More sympathetic To The American Cause Than Others.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: So They'Re Really Looking Through What He'S Sending As Well And Their Very Curious About Who Is He Talking
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: to?
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: how close to the American cause actually is he?
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: And also, Is He Managing To Drum Up Support In Britain for this kind of thing as well because they don't want lose sort popular support in Britain.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: For what has already a very unpopular government.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: What's really interesting As Well How these letters demonstrate The connectedness between Britain and American colonies in the eighteenth century.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: I suppose it shows A lot Of different families Merchants, a lot of people in the port.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: cities like Liverpool, Glasgow and Bristol have got very deep connections to America.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: And The Correspondence is
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: about
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: sometimes ideas but it's also about importing teapots or how we're going get you know tea into Boston...the kind things which spark problems.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: you know, early on with the Stamp Act and the T-Act because it's that commercial and personal connection.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: So in a way they're intercepting a very rich stream of information which is already flowing has been since the sixteen sixties In same kind level.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: so It does give us good snapshot how America and Britain have related to each other at this level away from governments maybe more in the commercial sense but also personal links between people, and in that sense it then leads you to say well this conflict was often very difficult for the people to accommodate.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: In their thinking about how they sit as Britons in America has potentially shifting towards an independent position because of its intolerable imposition from Westminster, from Parliament or from The King.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: ultimately so in that since it gives us a good snapshot of the way lives were lived.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: It's also quite interesting, I think that they're not just targeting Letters by people.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: They suspect of being rebellious or rebel synthesizers.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: actually numerically the largest single amount of People seem to be expressing loyalist sympathies ideas and work on one these boxes which is co five one three four And counting through who.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: then who are you looking at?
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: The largest single number of them seem to be loyalists, and they're talking about the issues that there having in places.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: They might be like New York where their sort of coming up against what is increasing.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: these are like a hard line rebel environment?
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: And again I think this as part of British government looking for loyalist support around the colonies where they can target when they want start military incursion strike back into.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: the rebels also seem to have very unclear loyalties as well.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: They're still deciding, this is very early really in the conflict.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: I think there's a tendency for us to think of seventeen seventy six declaration independence.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: everything has settled ideologically with sort of binary opposition between British and American.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: but a lot these people see themselves as British or British-American.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: at some extent they are unsure how to cope with such situations being thrown into.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: that what their mostly talking about how the military of deliverance affect them, how the economy is affecting them.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: They can't get food they can't sell anything in currency.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: it's valueless now.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: all these kinds of things which also think will be an interest as Sean says to people on other side of the Atlantic you cant' sell grain here in New York for example.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: its something we hear quite a lot.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: or if I send you bill sale might have no value stuff like
• 41:37
  Speaker 0: that.
• 41:38
  Speaker 0: i'm fascinated by the interests in intelligence gathering for a number of reasons because one could argue that the British response to the American War of Independence comes down to something like an intelligence failure.
• 41:57
  Speaker 0: That despite all this opening up letters they were doing, despite their very excellent intelligence-gathering operation.
• 42:05
  Speaker 0: They are overestimating support of King George and a parliament.
• 42:10
  Speaker 0: They were overestimating loyalism in the colonies, And they were underestimating at the same time how they should calibrate their own responses to what was happening.
• 42:21
  Speaker 0: In each time that they chose a response The British government it ended up alienating more people.
• 42:28
  Speaker 0: So there kind on this deathly feedback loop presuming There is support wanting to
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: react
• 42:35
  Speaker 0: against inappropriate things that rebels were doing, but choosing the wrong solution each
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: time.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: It is interesting when you think about the military activity and the fact there's not very many decisive battles on their small scale.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: so the military activities seems to be happening in a bit of an operational bubble.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: it's actually people belief...in various counties where armies are passing through preparations for fighting and the consequences of that, rather than actual casualties.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: That's what really matters!
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: The British maybe see this too much as a military attempt to just defeat a rebel army... ...and not considering how the population attitude has changed.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: because the cause which sparked rebellion in the first place is one Effect on everybody else, which is the taxation that the control of imports and all those other effects Graham just mentioned.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: you know in terms
• 43:41
  Speaker 0: Of how?
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: The price of things goes up And a value of the currency goes down.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: so all these things are real day-to-day kind of grinding issues Which in there in the background of our war I really aren't gonna change people's opinions about who was responsible for this and it obviously going to be the British because i think the drive To then blame the king for all of his having kind of led parliament down this route and the proclamation rebellion overlapping with the other branch petition, it gives you a sense that they've missed out on how the perception of whose fault is as flipped from being the military presence in the British troops in garrison towns.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: The quartering or harbinger food... It's become this blend of ideas, responsibility for the big government trying to squash these colonial lives.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: and how?
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: then?
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: the escalation of the military response is just a final trigger to persuade people that they should take sides against the British.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: So all of that, it's part of the intelligence process.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: sometimes in fighting with the colonial administration you know even back to the the seventeen sixties as you can see how governors are fighting assembly members Pushed through into interway colonies are managed.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: So I think that's a longer process of kind of decline and decay and control.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: But then the military response to necessity about as the British saw it is what tips some of them A lot more people into this position in opposition The British government and their representatives,
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: I Think it's really interesting talking point In the sense that you're right.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: there Is such a vast amount of intelligence gathering going on?
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: But I wonder if it's sort of this failure on the part of the British government at this time, and the hubris in the north ministry.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: And as for earlier ministries... from the Seven Years War onwards, is to focus on the kinds of people they are looking at with this kind of intelligence gathering.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: We talk about the packet ships for example.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: these are mainly picking up letters by wealthier merchants-people with these transatlantic connections that's still connected to Britain and it's a certain demographic or certain subset society whose opinions are being picked up... And its amazing.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: we have them but What it only touches on that doesn't directly show is the opinions of The far larger numbers are people in North America who Are less attached to Britain.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: They don't have these financial connections.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: they Don't have These kinds of links and sympathies across back to Britain.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: Their letters aren't in there because they're not writing these letters, but I'm sending them on the packets.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: There's a really interesting quote one of the letters we using for exhibition which by an anonymous writer in New York, but he's talking about how.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: there is a quote here.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: great talk of independence and the unthinking multitudes are mad for it.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: So we've obviously got a very clear idea.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: who thinks this isn't sportive independent?
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: And This Is A Theme We See Is That Wealthier People In The Colonies Because They Profit From Being Part Of The British Imperial System.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: they still want to stay in that system.
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: Aside from Very Few Specific More Extreme Opinions In Congress originally are thinking about how do we get back into the British system with more favourable terms that will help us profit as colonial actors.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: Ordinary people aren't thinking like that anymore, and I think that is what The British lose sight of – they lose sight at the back level!
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: As Sean says logistical difficulties in conducting a conflict in North America particularly on coastal northeastern America.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: it's such a complex coastline.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: there're so many individual little settlements All of which they can influence how you can or cannot access areas in that country.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: You need those naval links, maritime link to get up and down this coast... ...to even push slightly into the interior.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: There are several key examples here but it's all up-and-down on the coast!
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: They lose their settlements as well… I think that is what they haven't realized yet.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: It has already happened by a period of time.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: That majority is starting to shift.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: When we see the lists of loyalists and what they call rebels in these county lists that the governors are compiling, it's immediately obvious there was a sudden split.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: as soon as an opportunity to galvanize around one or other causes people have made decisions.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: then some evidence of bullying and intimidation on both sides physical violence.
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: but clearly by We get the evidence of these lists, of sympathies and sympathisers being created.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: That's already shifted people's minds.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: so in a way intelligence is behind the wave.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: People have made their choices as they can be recorded.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: but that implies there are much bigger groups who are waiting to probably join The Patriots side because things will get worse.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: They're going to blame the British for long term causes.
• 48:48
  Speaker 0: I'm recalling this story of the various loyalty oaths, and as we know with the Loyalty Oath that were assigned.
• 48:55
  Speaker 0: If you're presented a loyalty oath by soldier with musket and bayonet in your face You are likely to sign it.
• 49:01
  Speaker 0: But if other side comes says well...you should renounce that oath.
• 49:05
  Speaker 0: Well..if he puts a bayonette on your face then you'll renounce That oath And then the cataloguing was loyal and who is not obviously just becomes an exercise in a futile exercise, I should say.
• 49:17
  Speaker 0: But i want to go back to these ideas about what we see in those intercepted letters And also maybe what We See In Those Original Letters That Accompanied The First Dunlap Broad Sides that You Have In Your Collection.
• 49:30
  Speaker 0: the litany of complaints and the Declaration Of Independence-the name calling Is Pretty Extreme.
• 49:37
  Speaker 0: To what extent are these people commenting on the actual content, like the ad hominem attacks against their king?
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: That's a really interesting question in terms of The original enclosing letters because they're actually not at all Concentrating on that.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: They're far more focused on what this means strategically What this means for the institution new colonial governance structures.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: how knew they were or not it does.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: The Declaration of Independence means that they are now dealing with people in the colonial America who
• 50:13
  Speaker 0: have
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: decided to take on themselves a right to argue for their own point and to litigate with people like Richard Howe, William Howe.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: They're no longer coming at this as if we were above you Colonial Footing!
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: Whether they believe that or not, I think you could argue.
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: a lot of the British officials see this as very much an upstart move.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: But that is what we now have to do so there's more focused on that whereas personal letters are engaging with the ideological aspects
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: and i think the fact that they've blamed parliament for so long driving policy which was constraining colonies limiting how they can function appeal to the king trying intervene through the seventeen sixties the seventies, before the conflict really emerged.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: We see that in The Olive Branch Petition there's still a gripe about Parliament being the root cause of this and the frustration of nothing happening kind of moves the point-of-focus to the King himself because in a medieval leftover almost they can see him as the feudal overlord of government acting on his name.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: so he is up there to be targeted anyway, because that's the way the British system is still set-up.
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: But it actually...the Parliament's determination to drive through these policies which has already caused The Switch in belief That something must be done beyond complaining Because complaining has got them nowhere Anyway.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: So In that sense It doesn't really matter what King's position.
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: he's an institution rather than individual And they can target him.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: That's how you get the entire British system encapsulated in a problem or solution which they're trying to address through language of declaration.
• 52:05
  Speaker 0: Let me just rephrase my question then, what I was getting at is understanding.
• 52:13
  Speaker 0: So Jefferson is writing to convince maybe the third of people who are sitting on the fence that this is really important.
• 52:21
  Speaker 0: He's also writing to the people who agree with him, just sort of buttress the position.
• 52:26
  Speaker 0: Obviously people don't agree with them and British government will be reading in a different way.
• 52:32
  Speaker 0: But going back to the idea of intelligence failure if they're worried about strategic implications not paying attention point where you would see some misunderstanding about what's really going on.
• 52:47
  Speaker 0: This isn't just the colonists continuing to complain, these complaints are really important.
• 52:53
  Speaker 0: they need to be dealt with somehow and again.
• 52:55
  Speaker 0: it doesn't seem like there being... It's like the document isn't actually been understood in a way that is being received by its primary audience in the colonies.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: I think thats true.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: i think theres seems to be lack of immediate analysis Why the document is written in the way it is?
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: I mean we can talk here about sort of how it harks back to these
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: previous ideas
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: of liberties and as a British value system over the past.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: So, one hundred fifty years before this point really... It's tapping into those ideas that come around with English Civil War which comes around with the Glorious Revolution things like that.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: The ways its written are very much caused by those same kinds of grievances where you talk about tyranny and an unjust government.
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: And these are ideas that people in colonial America, also in Britain to be fair at the same time ,are engaging with.
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: I mean we
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: have
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: common sense for example which is uh also something that gets talked about in The Incentive Letters.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: how people are reading that in such vast numbers.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: all these kinds of ideas of why should a government exist in the way it does?
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: if say you have these grievances against King George III or against his ministry at the time.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: And I don't think they're engaging with that directly, what is interesting is there's some engagement later on when this starts to realise something needs taken more seriously.
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: so about two years later in January of written copy, manuscript copy of one our Dunlaps actually is laid before the House of Lords to be debated.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: So they are then in seventeen seventy-eight starting to think about what's going on here?
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: What other grievances and how can we actually think about How much of a mess were in?
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: but that takes quite a long time.
• 54:52
  Speaker 0: All right That's really interesting story.
• 54:56
  Speaker 0: Eventually Of course In the seventeen seventy eight The war isn't necessarily going well for either side, but at this point it's like one of these classic things.
• 55:07
  Speaker 0: And whenever we talk about the same thinking that recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
• 55:11
  Speaker 0: when did politicians and leaders finally figure out something is going horribly wrong?
• 55:17
  Speaker 0: Some assumptions aren't quite what they thought to be But anyway I want go back away from.
• 55:24
  Speaker 0: parliament or government are deciding.
• 55:27
  Speaker 0: maybe think your exhibit And you mentioned at the very start how it's also trying to focus on the experience of individual people, normal people.
• 55:37
  Speaker 0: Black loyalists women indigenous peoples.
• 55:41
  Speaker 0: so why don't we just focus on that for a little bit
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: now?
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah I suppose as we started first with Indigenous People... ...I was doing a bit of work with the Haudenosaunee Nation The Six Nations in upstate New York Just looking at their position in the whole of a British colonial experience and taking it back to I guess, medieval kind of crusading papal bulls that allowed Portuguese and Spanish to colonise and conquer.
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: And how this is brought into American continent when the British first or English first begin to arrive.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: but then moving on into the period of Revolutionary War How does different way thinking about history and recording events sit alongside archival paper trail like we're used to give us information about events in the past?
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: so it was very important to lock into that different perspective because obviously, it does intersect with a story.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: with the Sullivan Clinton campaign and all of the activities for forging alliances on both sides, using skills from indigenous people to move armies around.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: In that sense it's a really different perspective as certainly one British won't have heard in this history before.
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: so we've spent time interviewing representatives and leaders linked through Syracuse University because they have a good program which is getting us to the institutional memory of The Six Nations, I guess you could call it and we're really getting some good perspective on how they still are attached these stories in a very disturbing way.
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: They feel this as events that would be recent for us when we calculate time and its impact – their impacts upon people.
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: so thats been interesting.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: We've got an awful lot footage or audio.
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: think about mainly focusing on Sullivan Clinton and people like Joseph Brandt as people in both worlds who could represent, in their own view an indigenous perspective but also have a British perspective.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: And that's again something else being challenged by our investigation.
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: listening to those Indigenous voices We can see there has been knock-on effect.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: so certainly the Cherokee Nation is very interested now collecting information.
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: the treaties that affected its lands in the Ohio Valley over the course of British colonial period.
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: So, it's... The revolutionary anniversary is being used as a way to take stock where a lot of indigenous rights are how they sit with state and federal governments How the basis for land occupation and ownership is challenged.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: And what has been seen runs right through the colonial story on some rather shaky foundations Some that are legally sound, but it's very interesting exploration for us because the older archive is now being reused as a way of informing a different perspective and a different aim.
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: Surfacing those voices has been really interesting in how it sits through alongside a kind of colonial administration structure that created the Archive.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: we're familiar with
• 59:02
  Speaker 0: indigenous peoples.
• 59:03
  Speaker 0: The final grievance against King George of course mentions the phrase, the merciless Indian savages who king George has now incited to wage war against us colonists.
• 59:14
  Speaker 0: so very directly an attitude about Indigenous Peoples is there kind of right at the heart of the founding of the American experience and the American nation.
• 59:27
  Speaker 0: Graham?
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: Yes I think with that in mind it's This.
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: focusing on this kind of topic allows us to think about how the story Of the American Revolution, of independence in America fits into this sort of bigger picture.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: There's longer story which is really a story of Northern European colonialism In North America and how that affects indigenous nations there as well.
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: so You mentioned, of course that one of the grievances in Declaration of Independence is these sort of incitement warfare by quoting merciless Indian savages.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: But also what are these earlier incitements towards rebellion?
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: In The Americas he's caused a restriction on honest to how far west they can settle and various settlements.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: we have so many records British colonial authorities, and the Department for Indian Affairs.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: For example who were active in that theatre at the time trying to settle where those boundary lines might be.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: this is just part of a larger story of disputed land, disputed territory, disputing resources in North America.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: And I think sitting it within that story allows us to think about how all of those factors wanting to move further west wanting to grab these resources a part of the inciting elements Certainly.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: And one of the earlier items that we're going to feature in exhibition are these very, this sort of vast books, tomes we have of customs accounts here at The National Archives and they show imports and exports from American colonies.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: One thing they do show is economic reliance particularly on southern colonies for the practice of enslavement and resources and labor generated forced labour through enslavements.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: And we use that as a jumping off point really to start thinking about, and again this is one of the other elements mentioned in The Declaration.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: This idea of domestic insurrections which of course it's a sort-of thinly veiled reference to the Dunmore proclamation Which offers freedom To anyone enslaved by rebels.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: I think its important to know That It Is Enslaved By Rebels not just any enslaved person In Virginia if they'll fight on the British side... ...and later the Philitsberg Proclamation any enslaved person, enslaved by a rebel in any of the thirteen colonies.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 0: And
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: we sort-of pick up The Black Loyalist story from there... ...from this offer of freedom but it's very dangerous offer for freedom.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: We've also been talking to people from The Black Loilist Heritage Center Up In Nova Scotia because after seventeen eighty three large numbers Of black loyalists ended up in Nova Scotian And I still have a presence there today.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: There's still a community, strong community of black loyalists in Nova Scotia today or descendants thereof.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: We've been working with them to talk about what that history means for them.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: So we follow the story of Black Loyalist through our records throughout The American Revolutionary Period but were also interested In how the American revolution For many people is very live piece of History.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: i think That something which certainly are British audiences here domestic audience don't think about it very much.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: It's not something we think I was having current impacts, but it really does for various people in North America and also on both sides of the Atlantic
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: today.".
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: enslaved people who've become emancipated through the proclamations, settling in London reconstructing some of their life and you can see in there statements or testimonies what they're journey has been to that point where they can claim and demonstrate their loyalty to the crown.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: So you could pick up different strands on what it was like bein America In this period off the war but also beforehand.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: how transformation in peoples circumstances happened How many ways?
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: The War shook things Up.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 0: All right gentlemen, thank you so much.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 0: Well we're coming to the end of the interview.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 0: You know I started by talking about The importance of learning this story About how this document spread?
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 0: The printing Of this document.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 0: and then it makes its way To admirals in generals and crosses the Atlantic And eventually finds Its Way in a spies basement and the post office perhaps, then goes on somewhere else.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 0: And eventually it officially makes its way into the Continental Archives from there to the new building into the basement here.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 0: two hundred fifty years later some diligent archivists like you can take out do wonderful exhibition about this fantastic Dunlap broadsides all of these other intercepted letters fascinating things connected of independence.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 0: So I ask all my guests as we end though, here we are two hundred fifty years later what is your main takeaway from the work you've done on preparing for this exhibition?
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: I think i'm always still amazed by the sheer complexity in North America at that time and just different viewpoints with different issues grievances wants needs shows up our archive.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: It's kind of staggering and it has been quite difficult to try and condense that down into a narrative for an exhibition, but I always really enjoy seeing just the sheer complexity.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: My takeaway is linked with this.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: The archive is so rich when you actually address it as trying to extract a story or series of stories.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: You suddenly realise how much information was captured by bureaucracy in the past.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: immediate that can then become as you reassemble it and try to make those stories flow through the events, from established history or The Big Picture which has kind of been what we've being taught but actually diving into individual records.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: You get a sense always on how humans have to react To really uncomfortable and difficult situations And I think thats come across very nicely That the evidence is great.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: We could tell story at level an individual experience and tied onto these big themes, and big grand ideas about liberty.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: And freedom all of this.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: but actually that means something to everybody in their individual circumstances.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: we can see that two hundred fifty years later.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: It's a perspective shift isn't it really?
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: I think we know the political story to some extent.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: We know with military stories.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: what now get is real human story The personal story...and its same records.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: many times keep finding new stuff But looking at them from different angle.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 0: Dr.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 0: Graham Moore, Dr.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 0: Sean Cunningham Thank you so much.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 0: I'm really looking forward to the exhibition.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 0: If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to support German-American friendship Why don't visit us at our website americancentrum.de where You can become a member and donate?
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 0: The American Centrum is nonpartisan not for profit institution dedicated to strengthening of the transatlantic relationship.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 0: The views and opinions expressed in this episode are those.