Latest / Specialty Matcha Podcast / Interview with ChaEn Tea Experience, Khun Big

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Interview with ChaEn Tea Experience, Khun Big · Specialty Matcha Podcast

• 0:05
  Hello and welcome to the Specialty Match Podcast.
• 0:07
  My name is Ryan. This is Michael Ho Zongjin, who
• 0:09
  also goes by Sam. Hello.
• 0:11
  And we're the cofounders of Sanko Much Products.
• 0:14
  Yeah, we launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey,
• 0:17
  much out your startup stories and interview expert.
• 0:20
  Hello Brian from the future here.
• 0:22
  We also have a video version of this interview on YouTube with
• 0:25
  corrected captions back to the episode.
• 0:27
  Thanks. And today here again, we're
• 0:30
  sitting in a beautiful tea house here in Bangkok in this very
• 0:33
  vibrant neighborhood called Thong Law, with the founder of
• 0:37
  the tea house Cha and. Mr. Big Yes.
• 0:39
  Mr. Big Yes. Nickname.
• 0:43
  Nickname welcome, Welcome to the podcast.
• 0:46
  Yes. So before we jump into the
• 0:50
  questions, can you just tell our audience a little bit about, you
• 0:53
  know, your background and get some information about the Tea
• 0:56
  House China? OK.
• 0:57
  And from the Cheyenne Chinese of the tobacco is of the studies of
• 1:03
  about 13 years ago, 13 years ago.
• 1:05
  Yes, because I have my farm. Yes, my family have have have
• 1:12
  the tea farm OK after I'm the graduation so so looks the
• 1:17
  business OK. Yes he also business my family.
• 1:21
  And this is the tea farm in northern Thailand, right?
• 1:23
  Yes, not in Thailand. Like near Chiang Rai?
• 1:25
  Yeah, Chiang. Rai and before I start I I look
• 1:29
  to business they David they proceed about warranty.
• 1:34
  OK, OK. Yes.
• 1:35
  Warranty yes, but I think so it's about 13 years ago it's a
• 1:39
  warranty is so difficult to the sale in Thailand OK, yes yeah in
• 1:44
  Thailand so 13 years ago it's about the population is about
• 1:48
  tea bottle OK calling the green tea bottle.
• 1:51
  OK, like the Japanese style rice about.
• 1:54
  OG. OK, yes.
• 1:55
  Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, look at that.
• 2:00
  The trending is sort of green tea, OK.
• 2:03
  And better good for the good than the Olong tea Gron tea is
• 2:08
  for the model. And the officer is not nodding
• 2:12
  the warranty. OK, Yeah, I look, I look in the
• 2:15
  business, OK, I change a little bit for the process to to make
• 2:20
  to the Oh yeah. And 13 years going in the
• 2:23
  Starbucks, we have sold the start start in the menu.
• 2:27
  We have tried a matcha latte and polisha latte.
• 2:29
  OK, yes. So there was some market demand.
• 2:32
  People knew what macho was. Yes, so but if the the 13 years
• 2:37
  ago is that the Chinese Thailand is have the coffee.
• 2:40
  OK. Yes, it's a great shift.
• 2:42
  OK, Yeah, OK. And it looks so so it's tying to
• 2:45
  the chain to the room tea to the Masha.
• 2:48
  OK, Yeah, OK. The Masha and I have the the
• 2:52
  players in the small kiosk in the in the market.
• 2:58
  OK, I started and and they were all the recipe about the Masha
• 3:03
  latte and clear Masha and clear Masha Masha salabi many recipe.
• 3:09
  OK, yeah, it's just those is subset use and the response for
• 3:13
  the customer is that so? So OK, not not bad, not bad.
• 3:17
  And and when was that exactly? Was it like 10 years ago?
• 3:22
  13. Years 13.
• 3:23
  Still. 13 years ago OK? Oh, this was like 20/13/2013.
• 3:28
  Yeah, yeah. 20/12/2013 Wow, that's a long time.
• 3:32
  Yeah, Yeah, you're really early. Then no, no green.
• 3:36
  Tea. OK, yes, you're in the plastic
• 3:38
  bottles. Yeah, your bottle is really
• 3:40
  difficult. Yes, I have I I give the
• 3:43
  brochure is about explain about the matcha, but and because I I
• 3:48
  have the my friend of my friend of Andy stuff, but she she is up
• 3:53
  the tea master in Japan. OK.
• 3:56
  Yes, I I consult. With her, OK.
• 3:59
  Yeah, with her, yes, talking about the the tea and OK, it's
• 4:04
  Masha from Thailand and Masha from Japan from the starter.
• 4:07
  I I used the Masha from from my farm Thailand.
• 4:10
  So interesting. You don't.
• 4:12
  We've heard about it, but we've never met someone who's done it.
• 4:15
  And we didn't get to taste it until today, which is very
• 4:17
  special. And what's really special about
• 4:19
  it is the cultivar that you are growing in Thailand.
• 4:22
  Yeah, it's, it's a very famous Milky Ulo.
• 4:27
  Yes, from Taiwan. You feel the Milky and OK, and
• 4:31
  then the floral, Yeah. Super floral and there's this
• 4:34
  really interesting like citrus like kind of green line notes
• 4:39
  coming from the tea. We just tried it as a usucha.
• 4:42
  It was amazing. It's not like bitter at all,
• 4:45
  which I had very low expectation based on the color.
• 4:48
  It's not particularly very green, but it's it's a very
• 4:53
  interesting taste I've never tried from other teas before.
• 4:56
  Yeah. And me neither in that
• 4:57
  expression, like some stringency, but almost no
• 5:00
  bitterness. But the aromatics, the
• 5:02
  fragrance, yes, You don't have experienced that in a lot of
• 5:05
  matcha that's grown conventionally.
• 5:08
  That's really made us, I don't know, see things in a very
• 5:11
  different way of what's possible.
• 5:13
  How? How?
• 5:14
  High is the altitude of the farm.
• 5:17
  About 300 minutes. 300 million meters, OK, OK, so it's not
• 5:22
  particularly high. How how about the weather?
• 5:24
  Is it like super hot or? Oh, this the 30 years ago is
• 5:29
  about 30 for the high is about. 3030. 35 yes, OK, but but now
• 5:39
  it's up is. 40 Wow. Global warming is real global
• 5:45
  warming. Wow.
• 5:47
  Interesting. And I think it's about in the
• 5:50
  future is have the from and then it's have the more learning
• 5:55
  about the technique from the Japan.
• 5:57
  I think it's of the Macha is better than now and the plus,
• 6:03
  yeah. In the north, up in Chiang Rai,
• 6:06
  for the farmers that are making matcha, other than Jinchuan
• 6:10
  cultivar, are there other cultivars that people are using
• 6:13
  to make matcha like products That's.
• 6:15
  What I said, I think it's some farm itself and use the Asamika.
• 6:19
  Asamika. Yes, but but the Samika is a
• 6:22
  very strong. I'm sure.
• 6:24
  Yeah, very bitter. But but the Samika is not OK but
• 6:31
  but not bad. OK, OK, that is not bad, but but
• 6:35
  this have from the senior cities is better than the Asanica
• 6:38
  Asanica. I've heard there's some joint
• 6:40
  ventures too with some Japanese companies and some very large
• 6:44
  Thai companies like Singha that are doing some work in Chiang
• 6:47
  Rai. But I I think you mentioned that
• 6:49
  from Japanese cultivars that they brought in or.
• 6:52
  The first the first set I think is about use the tin but but OK,
• 6:58
  yes, but and three or four years for is they developed breeding
• 7:06
  or the OR the mix with the Yampukita or the.
• 7:10
  So they're making special cultivars for Chiang Rai with
• 7:13
  some DNA from Japanese, Yes. They're breeding with.
• 7:17
  Scene progression but but these have the government.
• 7:20
  The government. The part of the, I'm not sure is
• 7:24
  part of the agriculture. Yes, in the in the institute.
• 7:29
  Institute order. Yeah, some farming.
• 7:31
  Interesting in Xi'an and from the Seneca and you are from
• 7:37
  Japan, the cross. Beaten with with other cause of
• 7:40
  us from. Different.
• 7:41
  I think it's a fight, fight in the future if five years or the
• 7:45
  10 years have. Very interesting, very
• 7:48
  interesting. The groundwork is being laid
• 7:50
  now, so maybe in five to 10 years when they find the right
• 7:53
  cultivars for that region, for that climate, then a real
• 7:57
  specialty matcha that's actually really Thai, like Thai cultivars
• 8:02
  bred in Thailand, optimized for that soil, that climate.
• 8:05
  Yes, but I'm not sure they want to make the matcha or the green
• 8:10
  tea or grown tea or the tea. Yeah, yeah.
• 8:14
  But yeah, in the I. Think it's can make the matcha
• 8:19
  so interesting. Very interesting, I was
• 8:21
  wondering what's the back story of bringing Jingshuan into
• 8:26
  Thailand? Like why Jingshuan?
• 8:28
  Jingshuan is because it's the another farm is about 50 years
• 8:35
  old, the king, the king have the King of Thailand in north of
• 8:40
  Thailand have many, many people and make make the make the farm
• 8:51
  and the corporation from the Taiwan.
• 8:54
  Oh. Bring the seeds from Taiwan to
• 8:57
  the. So it was an early cooperation
• 9:00
  with Taiwan? Yes, to bring the seeds.
• 9:02
  Oh, interesting. And it was 15 years or 50 years
• 9:06
  ago? 50 years ago.
• 9:09
  Wow, that's a long time ago. The seed was planted early.
• 9:13
  That's really because the OPM yes, chain chain from the oh
• 9:19
  that the king have have the the chain to the yeah, it's out of
• 9:25
  the the last just 3050 or 60 years going some mini mini
• 9:32
  opium. I heard about that.
• 9:34
  They want to get rid of opium and then they bring in tea to
• 9:37
  like for the local farmers to make a living.
• 9:40
  Very interesting. Yeah, I heard about that.
• 9:42
  Wow. That's.
• 9:43
  And you guys were working with the Taiwanese too?
• 9:46
  Yes, yes, yes. And Jinxuan, and it's called
• 9:52
  sometimes it's about Internet. The history I think is about
• 9:56
  bringing from the Taiwan is about 15. 15 different
• 10:04
  cultivars. Yes, but it's good.
• 10:05
  It's OK from the vector in Thailand and it's very
• 10:11
  interesting and 4000 OK. Very interesting, like so many
• 10:17
  histories, stories going back. So, so you, you start to make
• 10:21
  matcha like back in 13 years ago.
• 10:23
  How have you seen people's opinions and preference change?
• 10:27
  When did you see the shift? Because in the beginning, like,
• 10:29
  people were not, you know, thinking this is particularly
• 10:32
  delicious. And the first thing is that the
• 10:34
  opinion of creamy and bitter, but the matcha is a Asian, you
• 10:40
  can see it more than coffee. Example is about 13 years ago is
• 10:45
  the coffee. Coffee is A1 copy server very
• 10:52
  cheap, but I sell the March latte is about 40.
• 10:57
  OK, Yeah, it's compared if you go to the Y2.
• 11:02
  Why? To drink the matcha, but the
• 11:04
  coffee is cheap. Yeah, coffee.
• 11:06
  Is. Cheaper it's so difficult, but I
• 11:09
  take more the information about the benefits of the something
• 11:13
  for the matcha OK yes OK and I import the machine from the
• 11:21
  cleaning machine from the Japan for the.
• 11:24
  Grinding machine from Japan. Yes, and for the because the
• 11:27
  recent from the different from the taste of the tea because
• 11:31
  because use use the machine from the China is leading is about I
• 11:36
  think it's about finally is not OK, OK, OK, but it's for the you
• 11:41
  need from the Japan is. Very fine.
• 11:43
  Very. Fine.
• 11:44
  Yeah, Yeah, we experienced that too.
• 11:46
  It was really fine. They know it's even better than
• 11:49
  a lot of matcha that we've tasted recently from Japan.
• 11:52
  That's all milled or or surrounding mills.
• 11:55
  It's yours was like silky smooth, no side of occasion and
• 11:59
  then something else. It was really interesting that
• 12:00
  I've never seen someone do intentionally was blend have a
• 12:05
  multi country blend of matcha, which is actually what I'm
• 12:08
  drinking now is this mixture of Thai Chiang Rai grown ginsuan
• 12:14
  matcha mixed with the Yabukita from Yame.
• 12:17
  And it's they just complement each other perfectly because you
• 12:20
  have like the fragrance of the Thai cultivar of the ginsuan
• 12:25
  grown in Thailand with the umami and green and sort of the the
• 12:29
  natural sweetness of the Yame 1 and together they work so well.
• 12:33
  What inspired you to do a multi country?
• 12:36
  But I'm sure they exist in Japan, but maybe they don't
• 12:38
  label it being like a mix of Chinese and Japanese.
• 12:42
  But but like seeing this intentionally done to craft
• 12:46
  something delicious is the first time I've ever seen it from all
• 12:49
  everyone that we've ever talked to in the industry.
• 12:51
  So how did this happen? Because this is like, really
• 12:54
  interesting. From the different from the
• 12:57
  another traffic yes I have the look at my farm and import from
• 13:01
  the Japan yeah yeah, it means it's from the OK this highlight
• 13:07
  menu and youth and some people is about open open my mind yeah
• 13:12
  this from the mature from Chennai yeah and bend it because
• 13:17
  because some people don't OK from the.
• 13:22
  Yeah, but it's a stigma maybe. Yes, but you open the minds of a
• 13:27
  when you feel that it's different, but it's the perfect.
• 13:32
  But what is the for all model? Fragrance.
• 13:38
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's different from the.
• 13:42
  Yeah, you're really like pooling things and highlighting the
• 13:45
  strengths of both teas, because even Yabukita I find is a little
• 13:49
  bit not interesting sometimes. But with this fragrance layered
• 13:53
  on top and this floral Ness, it's really like a blend that
• 13:57
  I've never tasted like anything like that coming from a Japanese
• 14:00
  product. Yeah, it's really 1 + 1 = 3
• 14:04
  larger than two. You know, like the the vegetal
• 14:06
  notes totally disappear from the yaquita and the citrus notes
• 14:10
  from the Ching Lai matcha remains.
• 14:13
  And that's wow delicious. Because the Yaquita is I think
• 14:19
  it's about Yaquita is test of the number of it's test.
• 14:23
  Yeah, it's about if you I could I if I select the ocumulary, I
• 14:28
  think it's from it's it's not the come come back with the
• 14:35
  yeah, it's Yabukita is is OK. Did you try any other cultivars?
• 14:40
  And yeah yes, which ones work and which ones don't?
• 14:43
  And why I? Think so is have the I see the
• 14:47
  Yabukita is because the the mainly Yabukita is tense of a
• 14:52
  model mommy, mommy, creamy business and assistance aromas
• 14:58
  really balanced. OK, yes, really balanced, but
• 15:01
  it's after if I select a summit or is about more mummy and
• 15:07
  sometimes I put the jinsu and I think it's so that not balanced.
• 15:13
  OK, Yeah. Not balanced.
• 15:15
  What about for very umami cultivars like maybe Uji Hakari
• 15:20
  or Asahi? Do you think it would be
• 15:22
  clashing or do you think it would be balanced?
• 15:25
  Yeah, it's flashing. OK.
• 15:27
  And sometime it's about OK it's about use, use the Gucci you can
• 15:31
  use that. The high quality is is I think
• 15:35
  it's not not suitable to the mixed with the OK.
• 15:41
  So the single this is better. OK, it's not 1 + 1 = 3.
• 15:46
  Interesting. Wow, it's such a, it's such an
• 15:49
  amazing idea and very it's, it really opened my mind to some
• 15:54
  possibilities. I think for other people,
• 15:57
  especially in other countries, to do some things that just
• 15:59
  don't exist in traditional Japanese matcha and they can
• 16:03
  layer on their own value, their own creativity.
• 16:06
  Just because the idea from the coffee coffee is Brazil and
• 16:12
  Thailand or the Guatemala they can bring from everywhere.
• 16:18
  Yes, it's why the matcha. And I mean, historically has
• 16:22
  been a blend as well. And wow, it's so interesting.
• 16:26
  And not only blending matcha from different regions,
• 16:29
  different countries, but also crossbreeding like plants from
• 16:33
  different countries. Like I'm sure like people in
• 16:35
  probably China, Japan are doing it too.
• 16:38
  But like, this is the first time I'm actually hearing from a
• 16:41
  industry expert that talks about this reality.
• 16:44
  And this is very inspiring. This is very inspiring, very
• 16:47
  cool. Wow.
• 16:48
  Really looking forward to taste a matcha made from like a
• 16:51
  Jinxian crust with a Yamakita or like Oku Midori in the future
• 16:57
  and growing in Thailand in this very unique tawa.
• 17:01
  Talk about a global story, a Japanese cultivar with the
• 17:04
  Taiwanese mixed specifically, but mixed in north of Thailand
• 17:09
  and then grown there and then maybe mixed back with other
• 17:12
  Japanese tea to create a more balanced land that's.
• 17:15
  Great. Forged and create by the locals,
• 17:17
  for the locals. Yeah, it's really, truly a local
• 17:20
  product in a sense that's really wonderful.
• 17:24
  This is an unexpected story. We weren't, we had no
• 17:26
  expectations. But that's very exciting because
• 17:29
  we've been talking a lot about this on the podcast and how
• 17:32
  there needs to be more local adaptation.
• 17:34
  And maybe the really high quality matcha in Japan is not
• 17:37
  what someone wants or likes in California or in Mexico City or
• 17:42
  in Brazil. But the people who are in those
• 17:45
  places know their consumers really well, and then they can
• 17:49
  blend and do this new flavor creation that will specifically
• 17:53
  meet those preferences that maybe Japanese people cannot
• 17:56
  understand. Create a.
• 17:57
  Fusion menu form of masha OK masha de honey lamb honey lamb
• 18:03
  honey there masha honey honey lemon.
• 18:05
  Honey lemon, Honey lemon. Yeah, and Masha lemon soda.
• 18:09
  OK. And we can't have a mash harder
• 18:13
  sweet sweet potato. Oh, sweet potato.
• 18:17
  Milk and sweet potato and masha. Milk and mint.
• 18:23
  Mint. We've heard some crazy
• 18:24
  combinations and we even heard this cafe here who has a soy
• 18:28
  sauce matcha lattes, Masha sauce, Yeah.
• 18:30
  Yeah, in the tunnel gauge, right, because we have the soy
• 18:33
  sauce have. I could see that working.
• 18:38
  We haven't tried it yet, but we we plan to this afternoon.
• 18:40
  Before, did you have any experience in like like the
• 18:45
  bubble tea industry or the milk tea industry, or did you take
• 18:49
  any inspiration from that? And and the black tea and black
• 18:53
  tea yes, but but special is about much.
• 18:56
  OK, yes, yes, the main the menu is at the OK for the and the
• 19:03
  black tea and milk tea. So the matcha is not the matcha
• 19:07
  only. OK, Yeah, it's the tea only.
• 19:10
  OK, so it was a tea tea shop basically.
• 19:12
  Yeah, OK. But but the the people, the
• 19:15
  customer is model matcha. OK, So it was a customer choice
• 19:20
  that you steer more into matcha. Yes.
• 19:23
  Interesting. How have you seen the matcha
• 19:26
  scene evolve in Thailand? Because now like the evolution,
• 19:31
  Because now like you see everywhere, every cafe has
• 19:36
  cultivars, Everyone tells you the region that it's grown from,
• 19:39
  it's from Fukuoka, Yame, it's from Wuji, or even more specific
• 19:44
  like Wazukati or Uji Tawara, Giulio Town.
• 19:48
  You don't see this in other countries or other places.
• 19:53
  We haven't at least that level of sophistication.
• 19:57
  Maybe if you're in in in Paris, the conversation is that the
• 20:00
  matcha ceremonial grade, but that's it.
• 20:03
  They don't give you any other details, but here it's really
• 20:07
  transparent. If you were to open a new matcha
• 20:10
  brand tomorrow, I think in Thailand you would fail if you
• 20:14
  didn't label the origin such as Gluji, Yame, Kagushima,
• 20:20
  Chizulka. And I think you would fail if
• 20:24
  you didn't have cultivar saying this is Oku Midori, this is
• 20:27
  Jabukita Asahi Uji Hakari, because every cafe in Thailand
• 20:33
  gives this information. So if you were to just to say
• 20:36
  it's premium matcha and that's it and nothing else ceremonial.
• 20:40
  Grade. I think every Thai consumer
• 20:42
  wouldn't trust you, right? How did that happen?
• 20:45
  Because if you go to anywhere else in the world, consumers
• 20:49
  don't care and ask about origin or cultivar.
• 20:53
  But here it's a standard. And maybe 10 years ago no one
• 20:56
  cared, but now everyone cares. And that's very unusual because
• 21:01
  even in Japan, no one cares about that information.
• 21:04
  How did that happen in Thailand? Or like, when did that happen?
• 21:08
  Like when did you start seeing consumers coming in and ask you
• 21:13
  like, what's the cultivar? Where is this from So.
• 21:21
  Fairly recently actually, yes, yes, because of sample the after
• 21:26
  the COVID and before the COVID. No, no.
• 21:30
  The question about it how you want COVID came from the UJI,
• 21:34
  OK. OK, Uji, much is fine.
• 21:36
  Yes, no, yeah, I mean yes, after the after the COVID this had
• 21:42
  thought about the modern information and the people is
• 21:45
  have that deal with the building the home, yes, it can cannot go
• 21:52
  to the cafe. It's back from some place, some
• 21:55
  cafes of trying and talking about, talking about the
• 22:01
  information. So it's like a sale strategy.
• 22:03
  So all of the matcha companies in Thailand during COVID used
• 22:07
  education to sell matcha and to enrich the experience at home.
• 22:11
  Consumer got curious I guess because they have nothing.
• 22:14
  To do yeah, they have more time, maybe, yeah.
• 22:18
  But they want to know about the information they want to know is
• 22:23
  what is a three-year? Is this from, from from where?
• 22:27
  From the. Which cultivar?
• 22:29
  Yeah, from but but is so so is outside of COVID.
• 22:35
  OK, OK. Yes, and the more more the
• 22:38
  information yeah, from this, from this where exactly?
• 22:42
  Yes. And I think I think have and
• 22:45
  customer have more time for the searching about the searching
• 22:49
  and the OK and the amount customer is have a kind of
• 22:52
  compare compared to has more time for the complete.
• 22:56
  Interesting you kind of see this happen elsewhere too, Like in
• 23:01
  the states people got into like home baking a brioche, doing all
• 23:05
  sorts of like yeast, you know, fostering themselves.
• 23:09
  I guess in Thailand people got into matcha to kill time during
• 23:12
  COVID. Wow, so interesting.
• 23:14
  You see this a little bit in the States where the single cultivar
• 23:17
  idea for matcha over COVID, yeah, you saw all sorts of new
• 23:21
  brands that focus on this like a week like cattle started
• 23:25
  focusing more on this Rockies matcha all around this COVID
• 23:29
  era. Because because things have sort
• 23:32
  of the coffee beans have got single the already in the so the
• 23:37
  much high industry installed. OK, is that the information for
• 23:41
  the the more choice for the consumer.
• 23:43
  The single creator is had a more choice and can and company
• 23:49
  importer is kind of select from the farm factory.
• 23:55
  Interesting. They always have a they sell the
• 23:59
  the brand only, not the single party 1.
• 24:03
  Interesting. So in in other countries you
• 24:07
  often see a hybrid between like specialty coffee and matcha.
• 24:12
  It's actually usually a specialty coffee shop and then
• 24:15
  they just happens to sell matcha as a portfolio.
• 24:18
  So in Bangkok, do you also see that being the case like people
• 24:23
  in coffee, like they do single cut of a coffee and then they
• 24:26
  start doing matcha too? Or do you see people just focus
• 24:30
  on tea like you, like you were doing tea all the time since the
• 24:33
  beginning? Do you see that being more of
• 24:36
  the case? Or do you see that, you know,
• 24:38
  like people doing coffee and matcha together?
• 24:42
  I think so. It's a specialist tea is OK
• 24:47
  because the coffees are so. So if you cook in the in the
• 24:51
  cafe for the specialty coffees, after the smell of the coffee,
• 24:56
  more modest meal, but but if you you sell the matcha, you're not,
• 25:00
  you cannot smell the. You cannot smell the matcha,
• 25:04
  yes. You can smell the only Yeah, the
• 25:08
  smell of the coffee is really strong, but the tea is soft.
• 25:15
  Do you, do you see like coffee people move into matcha in
• 25:20
  Thailand? Because the recent is some
• 25:23
  people use the six. Acid reflux yeah, yeah, yeah too
• 25:30
  acidic the. Women who stop higher than the
• 25:34
  men. OK, Yeah, it's very similar to
• 25:36
  the rest of the world. Do you see like people from the
• 25:39
  coffee industry, like people making coffee, like start
• 25:43
  switching to making matcha? Do you see that like, like
• 25:47
  coffee shops, like becoming matcha shops?
• 25:49
  They do matcha in Thailand. Yes, some special coffee yes,
• 25:53
  they they could open the special key on the special because
• 26:00
  because it's OK in the market, it's have to have the
• 26:02
  opportunity. Yeah, yeah, the market but but I
• 26:06
  think so it's now situation is happen.
• 26:10
  It's so difficult because the people is have just it's 100.
• 26:16
  It's now just 100 people for the assembles for that and not more.
• 26:22
  The people find it in the Saturday is after just just just
• 26:27
  mm hmm, you understand that's the moment.
• 26:32
  There are not enough markets. The market is getting saturated,
• 26:35
  yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's yeah.
• 26:38
  The the cake. Yeah, and the cake.
• 26:40
  Yeah, it's full. Yeah.
• 26:41
  Yeah, I think. It's only so big.
• 26:43
  Yeah, everyone is coming in to take a slice.
• 26:46
  Yes, yes, yes. Always have a mini I can move
• 26:49
  move to the yes, select the cake.
• 26:52
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Only so yeah, hopefully we can
• 26:55
  grow the cake together. Yeah, I think so.
• 26:58
  I think so is yeah because but it's not now next year is have
• 27:05
  the a little bit going. Boom.
• 27:09
  Not a explosion. But it's still very interesting
• 27:12
  though, because it's, you know, from our own observation too,
• 27:17
  like people don't really do hybrid in Bangkok.
• 27:20
  Like a coffee plus matcha in one location in one shop.
• 27:24
  It's really like, really separate.
• 27:26
  Because, because because I think so is that the customer is ever
• 27:29
  understand and if they if they want to drink the matcha they go
• 27:35
  to the. They go to a matcha shop.
• 27:37
  They want coffee. They go to a coffee.
• 27:39
  Shop, yes, but it's OK. You go to my friend.
• 27:42
  Yeah, my friend. You want to drink coffee but but
• 27:45
  you have you want to drink the matcha the coffee shop we got.
• 27:49
  They have to have that option. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 27:51
  I think, I think, yeah, I think the coffee shop is a option for
• 27:54
  the matcha. Yeah, not the specialty of the
• 27:56
  matcha. Yeah, because it's it's what Sam
• 27:59
  was saying. It's interesting because in the
• 28:01
  States, I wonder because like in New York, for example, New York
• 28:05
  has had coffee shops on every corner for, I don't know, more
• 28:09
  than 50 years. And it's a very well established
• 28:12
  like local institutions, all of these coffee shops.
• 28:15
  But I wonder if like just Thailand didn't have as many
• 28:19
  coffee shops and there was this huge demand for matcha that it
• 28:23
  can support a matcha only tea house.
• 28:27
  It's here, it's a huge mix of tea house and cafes.
• 28:30
  And maybe they just there weren't as many cafes to start.
• 28:34
  So as all of the demand for specialty coffee and specialty
• 28:37
  matcha has grown, they can have their own shops.
• 28:41
  And what's interesting is within tea houses, like you get an
• 28:43
  insane level of transparency. Like you don't get this in a
• 28:46
  coffee shop with all of this detail, but the matcha cafes can
• 28:50
  do it because maybe that coffee, it's just too much for a coffee
• 28:54
  shop to do that. You have to learn experts in
• 28:56
  coffee and in matcha. But the tea houses, it's their
• 28:59
  specialty. It's.
• 29:01
  But but I think it's absolutely it's the more the moist to
• 29:06
  learning, learning from the matcha from me and consult me
• 29:11
  from the and yes, another probin's detail.
• 29:17
  OK, you can open the matcha shop, but you have the model
• 29:24
  option of the coffee. It's a special coffee.
• 29:28
  OK. Yes, you, you.
• 29:30
  You have an option on the Americano on.
• 29:32
  It's a simple, basic case. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 29:35
  We found some some case in the London, London, Bangkok.
• 29:39
  So it's a matcha shop that offers just a little bit of
• 29:42
  coffee. Yes, it's it's the opposite in
• 29:45
  the place like New York, you have all these options for
• 29:47
  coffee and you have simple basic matcha latte and that's it.
• 29:51
  Just one it's the. About a table turn.
• 29:55
  Because the the now you have the you open the coffee shops, you
• 30:02
  have more than one. Because of all the equipment
• 30:05
  costs, The machines, yes, much more expensive.
• 30:08
  Much more expensive. So it's the special coffee you
• 30:12
  can you have the owner, the coffee shop have have the more
• 30:15
  than money, OK, and open the coffee shop, but it's have the
• 30:21
  coffee copies have that choice. Yeah, yeah, the option of the
• 30:25
  matcha. They are the clear matcha.
• 30:28
  Interesting, I wonder if money like the cost of opening a shop
• 30:32
  is part of the driving cost. Cuz you can probably open 2
• 30:36
  matcha shop with the money that you can open only one coffee
• 30:40
  shop and people like for you know for this reason tend to
• 30:45
  open more matcha yes versus coffee.
• 30:47
  Yes, yes, because the everyone one to the owner, the business
• 30:52
  no matcha shop is not more than one.
• 30:54
  Interesting. How is the matcha shortage
• 30:57
  affected? The matcha scene in Thailand is,
• 31:02
  from what we understand, it's much easier to import tea to
• 31:06
  Thailand. Like basically anything that you
• 31:08
  can that's allowed in Japan is allowed in Thailand.
• 31:10
  But have have you experienced a big matcha shortage or have you
• 31:15
  noticed that the whole industry is suffering?
• 31:17
  Because we hear a lot from people in other countries,
• 31:21
  especially in Europe, in the United States, the matcha
• 31:24
  shortage, they just can't get product or if they can, it's
• 31:27
  less and maybe it comes a few months late, but from supply,
• 31:32
  have you noticed how, how big of a problem has that been in 2024
• 31:37
  for you and 2025 getting supply, like stable supply, yeah.
• 31:43
  For my my companies K8 talking about the supplier and find more
• 31:50
  for the find more the supplier. OK, so you did need to find
• 31:53
  more. Yes, but but some, some, some
• 31:56
  suppliers off the end of the off so.
• 31:59
  Out of stock, OK. But but because I I and under
• 32:02
  reserve it. Yeah, but the the the old the
• 32:06
  supplier I can contact first. I can have before I can I can I
• 32:11
  can leave this. So you can reserve reserve.
• 32:14
  OK supplier. Yes, supplier and the old
• 32:17
  supplier, the Japan is have the OK.
• 32:19
  It's have you, you're the old, you're the old customer.
• 32:23
  Yes, yeah. And people have been doing it
• 32:26
  here for so long, they get priority.
• 32:28
  And the problem I think is have so the about the the OK and the
• 32:34
  the team is on the famous brand. Yes, because because the
• 32:39
  Thailand and Japan is not far five hours from the airplane OK
• 32:45
  is some some people's call game, go to the Japan and buy all.
• 32:51
  We've heard, yeah, a whole suitcase full of Hoshino secha
• 32:57
  or Maru Koyama. Yeah, yeah.
• 33:02
  And is the problem, but I think so.
• 33:06
  The cafe is done. Don't use the the thing can
• 33:11
  order except for in my modern mouth.
• 33:14
  Yeah, Yeah. I think it's about.
• 33:17
  Many kilos. Hundreds of kilos, I'm sure.
• 33:20
  Problem is not a big problem. OK, but but the big problem is
• 33:24
  that and from the the thing and from the famous band.
• 33:29
  So the whole band is stuff the so so it's but but it's up.
• 33:35
  I buy OK, it's I buy from the shopper 1100K yes, the order is
• 33:41
  about 150 OK. I mean it to the OK, this old
• 33:47
  customer or the new customer, you can limit yeah and limit to
• 33:53
  the. OK.
• 33:55
  Yeah, this purchase limits, Yeah, we hear that all the all
• 33:58
  the time. It's really hard to grow for a
• 34:01
  lot of new matcha companies because they can't find much of
• 34:04
  those purchasing history or very short purchase history.
• 34:07
  Yes, I think it's it's it's the the problem is it's short
• 34:11
  because because many, many people use up other the other
• 34:18
  the business. Yes, it's some some people is
• 34:21
  have business. It's not not AT business.
• 34:24
  It's come to the. To make money quickly.
• 34:28
  To make one need, yes. Do you see there's if you talk
• 34:31
  to a lot of people in Japan, they say I'm tired, I want this
• 34:36
  matcha boom to go away. And I hope that I guess, I guess
• 34:40
  if another way of phrasing it is I hope people drink less matcha
• 34:43
  is what we hear in Japan. Like when is it going to be more
• 34:47
  quiet? When is the demand for matcha
• 34:50
  going to go down? But in Thailand, do you think
• 34:53
  that the amount of matcha that people are drinking is going to
• 34:57
  increase or decrease with time? Because I think it's only going
• 35:01
  to keep growing because people love it and it's part of their
• 35:05
  life now. But do you see the demand for
• 35:08
  matcha in Thailand going down ever?
• 35:11
  Or do you think it's just going to keep growing?
• 35:12
  I think it's now is going down. It is going down now.
• 35:16
  Yes, now because the price higher.
• 35:19
  Too high. Yes, too, higher than the
• 35:22
  quality. OK.
• 35:23
  So the price increases are so much that the quality doesn't
• 35:28
  deliver. Yes, and then they're
• 35:29
  disappointed and then they won't buy as much.
• 35:32
  So and customers, some customers is too high OK in the matcha.
• 35:38
  OK, do they switch back to coffee or do they just stop
• 35:41
  drinking? The order, yeah it's 100 bucks
• 35:45
  for a cup, but but in the matcha sometimes it's 200 bucks per
• 35:49
  cup. Yeah, yeah, it's more expensive.
• 35:52
  But but because my and cafe is up for the yeah, I have some
• 35:57
  supply early stuff. I'm really yeah, OK, so listen
• 36:01
  to to the sale the the the high parts, because the from the
• 36:05
  Japan is have a sale the the bowl and the tip bowl.
• 36:09
  Well, maybe Qinghai matcha will catch up one day.
• 36:12
  Yeah, Yeah, I think so. I I think it needs to like all
• 36:16
  these other regions outside of Japan.
• 36:18
  You know, it's really the foundation of a stable matcha
• 36:22
  consumption market in the future because like, if the price is
• 36:25
  just going to ever go up for Japanese matcha, people are
• 36:29
  going to move away. Like they're going to move away
• 36:32
  to like milk tea and all kinds of other, you know,
• 36:34
  alternatives. The everyone talks about the
• 36:37
  victims of the matcha boom being the tea farmers.
• 36:41
  Never. They have 50 people asking to
• 36:43
  buy their product. I, I don't see how that can be a
• 36:45
  victim as much as people in places like Thailand who, you
• 36:50
  know, it's, if you look at the average purchasing power of a
• 36:53
  consumer in Thailand, right? They're very limited and even,
• 36:58
  you know, 150 bodies, 4 or $5, it's that's expensive even in
• 37:04
  like and other places. And I think this is the real
• 37:07
  victim because there's this culture of drinking matcha here.
• 37:10
  It's very new. It's a baby culture, but it has
• 37:12
  so much potential. And now the prices are getting
• 37:15
  so high that people literally cannot afford it.
• 37:18
  And it's the people who have the least money that are now cannot
• 37:23
  access this culture. And now it becomes an elite
• 37:26
  culture of just the people who can afford it.
• 37:29
  And I think that's very sad. And I think it's really, I think
• 37:32
  like places like Northern Thailand, China, Taiwan, Korea,
• 37:38
  they can increase the supply, make new, incredibly new and
• 37:42
  interesting flavors to make it cheaper so that we, this doesn't
• 37:46
  turn into an elite culture so that it's something accessible.
• 37:50
  Like the victims of this Machibu whom are silent.
• 37:53
  They're the people that say, I can't afford a matcha today.
• 37:56
  And then the next day, I can't afford a matcha today.
• 37:59
  And then they move away. This is the real victim of, of
• 38:04
  this movement. It's, it's not the people who
• 38:06
  have so much demand for their products.
• 38:08
  It's also the small businesses, all of these new Matcha
• 38:11
  businesses in Thailand and in other countries, they don't have
• 38:14
  product to sell or they, they have to spend 2 times the amount
• 38:18
  on much as they buy. And they said they have to raise
• 38:21
  the price for customers. And then their customers are
• 38:24
  disappointed in them because it's double the price and maybe
• 38:28
  it's a worse quality than it was last year.
• 38:31
  So small businesses that suffer and consumers that suffer.
• 38:34
  Yes, yes, really really suffer again for the start for the new
• 38:39
  new houses this year Yeah from the the high price, but the
• 38:47
  quality is. Yeah, Mix.
• 38:50
  I've heard it's very good at the best places like Gokasho.
• 38:54
  Like apparently Guji has very high quality, but a lot of the
• 38:57
  other tea we've tasted is it's some of it.
• 39:00
  Yeah, just OK. Yeah, it's the high 5, but but
• 39:03
  quality is is high just yeah, just OK.
• 39:07
  Yeah, yeah. And the customer is 10 and OK if
• 39:12
  the quality is they will understand, Yeah, yeah, they
• 39:14
  will understand. But now it's the quality is not
• 39:17
  OK, but but the high pie. So it's so OK for some ways
• 39:20
  movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 39:22
  It's really a shame. It makes me very sad.
• 39:24
  I, I really hope that the stigma for Chinese matcha, for Thai
• 39:27
  matcha, for Korean matcha can be lifted and we see more
• 39:31
  innovation like this where we can even mix with Japanese to
• 39:35
  create new things. Because, you know, Japan doesn't
• 39:37
  just have exclusively good tea either.
• 39:40
  Like there's a lot, a lot of very in the middle mediocre
• 39:42
  matcha that's produced in Japan that might taste fantastic when
• 39:46
  mixed with something more fragrant, for example.
• 39:48
  So it's more value can be added onto the system.
• 39:52
  It's, which is what you're doing here and it's, it's very
• 39:54
  inspiring. And I understand from the key
• 39:57
  farm from the Kyoto. The other is yeah.
• 40:01
  And they tell me he's with good quality.
• 40:06
  OK, He's with. OK, I bet because it's I.
• 40:09
  They they don't really serve a grinding quickly.
• 40:13
  Yes, the grinding bottlenecks. We heard there's a Ishiyusu
• 40:17
  shortage too. Not enough.
• 40:19
  Next month or two, two months of from the cookie auto is is
• 40:23
  coming from the new new houses and the food quality.
• 40:26
  Very nice, yeah. Has time to rest too.
• 40:28
  Yes, yes. Yeah.
• 40:31
  It's in the. It's in the place, Yeah.
• 40:33
  I'm sure still compared to all the tea growing regions in the
• 40:37
  world, Kyoto or even Japan, it's a small place.
• 40:41
  There will be a nautical cultural that's outside of Japan
• 40:45
  or another Yamai that's outside in the future.
• 40:48
  And we believe that's happening and it should happen.
• 40:51
  It must happen. Otherwise this whole thing will
• 40:54
  go the way it will vanish and into a niche cultural luxury
• 40:59
  once again. And we don't want to see that
• 41:01
  future happen. Yes, so it's why the shop is the
• 41:06
  experience, not the experience because it's the sometime is the
• 41:15
  mature is going down multi is going the main the main product
• 41:21
  is I can change yeah and. It's more flexible, yeah.
• 41:25
  It can be flexible because sometimes people always have a
• 41:28
  It don't need a beauty on. I want to think the red tea on
• 41:36
  the wrong tea. Yes, I have the option.
• 41:38
  We've been, we've been seeing matcha as a gateway to loose
• 41:41
  leaf tea because everyone's worried that sencha is in
• 41:44
  decline, Gokharos in decline. Even leaf tea consumption I've
• 41:48
  we've heard in places like Taiwan and mainland China is
• 41:51
  declining because young people don't want to do Kongfu Chai and
• 41:55
  people don't want to do use a kyusu.
• 41:58
  But now that people are interested in matcha, it might
• 42:01
  be a gateway to get them interested into other teas too.
• 42:04
  It's AI think it's very needed, especially as all tea
• 42:07
  consumption is kind of on the decline from a traditional
• 42:10
  style. So it's that that's promising
• 42:12
  too because I know a lot of our listeners are really concerned
• 42:16
  about there being no market for gokharo, no market for sencha or
• 42:20
  for any of these other loose leaf tea.
• 42:22
  So it's a cool concept because sometimes 1 can be a bridge to
• 42:26
  the other because. I think so the news come to the
• 42:32
  tea industry OK, the first but bring the is so easy and take a
• 42:37
  picture is so beautiful. Yeah, it's a green color for the
• 42:40
  share in the social. Yeah.
• 42:42
  Yeah, but I think so the newcomer is of doing more, doing
• 42:47
  more than matcha, I think so. Sometimes boring.
• 42:50
  Yeah, boring is chained to the. Yeah, it's a more dynamic new
• 42:55
  flavors. Flavors, yeah, because of many,
• 42:59
  many options. Vietnam, yeah.
• 43:02
  Option, Yeah, In the India, yes, it's really many, many options.
• 43:08
  Have you tried to powderize or make powder with other teas
• 43:14
  other than tensha or green tea? Like have you tried using ulong
• 43:18
  or black tea to make powder with your grinder?
• 43:22
  It's soda it. Is fine.
• 43:24
  It's not. OK Oh, fineness is not OK.
• 43:28
  We have the stem, strongest stem.
• 43:32
  These are the yeah wrong teas. The powder.
• 43:36
  OK OK, OK, maybe you D stand the tea in my grind into Finder pads
• 43:42
  is the. Similarity.
• 43:44
  Yeah, similarity Powder itself. The finite is social I think so
• 43:51
  it says why the the history the people in history not not to the
• 43:56
  cleaning the wrong teeing or cleaning the red tee some
• 44:02
  recent. Finance is the problem.
• 44:05
  Yes, it's finance problem. Interesting.
• 44:07
  But but the future is have the machine.
• 44:09
  Yeah. Given the machine available,
• 44:11
  yeah, people cannot grind that into YEAH.
• 44:14
  So I think a good last question is what changes which you like
• 44:17
  to see in the matcha industry in the next 5 years?
• 44:21
  What would you like to see change?
• 44:23
  One or two years turning back to the price.
• 44:30
  Sales price, yeah. Yes and people is have the
• 44:35
  during being matcha everyday it's ever OK, it's the thing,
• 44:40
  but I assume myself understand about the matcha it's the
• 44:44
  standard still in the matcha so. Consumer who likes or understand
• 44:49
  matcha still remains in the matcha.
• 44:52
  Yes, so that people don't leave the industry, people don't leave
• 44:57
  their their habits. Yes, because, because the this
• 45:00
  year is about is 20. Yeah, Yeah.
• 45:03
  It's the trending. Yeah.
• 45:04
  So you don't want it to be a trend, you want to see it like.
• 45:07
  OK. And the last year is up, Yeah,
• 45:10
  yes, but I think so two or three years of us going down in the
• 45:13
  stable. OK, same the coffee.
• 45:15
  Same with. Specialty coffee yes same
• 45:18
  because the five or six years specialty specialty coffee is
• 45:22
  about where it's going and now it's OK it's stable yeah looking
• 45:27
  so stay because in the tea during recently half the circle
• 45:34
  the circle is about in in Thailand half half the circle is
• 45:38
  about 10 years ago is have Thai tea is on MU tea mobile tea is
• 45:44
  popular OK and five years ago is mobile tea again OK yes and same
• 45:51
  the matcha yes 5 five or six year ago itself the matcha in in
• 45:57
  Thailand itself OK yes but OK this five yeah circle yeah it's
• 46:03
  the last so. Every drink category has a
• 46:07
  almost a five year circle. Like they take turns and then
• 46:10
  they have their own boom, 5 to 10 years.
• 46:13
  We don't quite see that yet in other countries for from matcha.
• 46:18
  Yeah, just cross. Yeah.
• 46:22
  But I think that tiny market is more mature for Matcha because
• 46:27
  it's been so sophisticated or at least the last three years since
• 46:31
  I've been coming here for matcha.
• 46:33
  It just is so mature from a knowledge perspective and what
• 46:38
  people are asking for and it's. It also happened so fast.
• 46:43
  Three years. Three years is not a long time.
• 46:46
  Yes, yeah. Not a long.
• 46:47
  Yeah, that's, that's crazy. We probably will see that
• 46:51
  happening in other countries. There is.
• 46:53
  Yeah. Yeah, we hope that everyone
• 46:56
  takes inspiration from Thailand and the way that much knowledge
• 47:00
  is communicated to the consumer. In Thailand, it's about
• 47:03
  different from the Another country pasta, the recipe and
• 47:07
  the fusion menu. Yeah.
• 47:09
  You see a lot of innovation there, yeah.
• 47:11
  Yeah, yeah. OK.
• 47:12
  It's the published Yeah, another country is some basic masala.
• 47:16
  It's about much with the water and top on the milk.
• 47:20
  Yeah yes, but my hunty have no water.
• 47:23
  Yeah, cold whisk. This cold whisking thing is
• 47:26
  really interesting. I hope that that spreads,
• 47:29
  because when you have no dilution from any water and
• 47:32
  you're doing a cold extraction with the matcha with milk,
• 47:36
  tastes totally different. It's really good.
• 47:39
  It's good. Sometimes it's called it masala
• 47:42
  days I style. Great innovation, especially in
• 47:46
  an iced beverage. It really works.
• 47:48
  High latte but with matcha. Yeah, 90%.
• 47:51
  So still a very high percentage, yes.
• 47:55
  Yeah. But I think this cold whisking
• 47:57
  style makes you taste the cultivar better.
• 48:00
  Like you can really taste the difference between like a very
• 48:03
  umami cultivar like Asahi from Mazuka cold whisk and like a
• 48:08
  yami tea. Like they really magnify the
• 48:11
  differences. Let's dilute it.
• 48:14
  You can taste the tea. Much more on the blend of.
• 48:21
  That too. Yeah, I could see that.
• 48:22
  Well, that's all very interesting.
• 48:24
  Thank you for sharing all these information.
• 48:27
  Yeah. Thank you.
• 48:27
  So thank you so much for your time.
• 48:29
  It's great to meet you. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's and thank
• 48:33
  you for all the tea. It's been very tasty, very, very
• 48:36
  mind opening too. Yeah, inspiring honestly, There
• 48:39
  will be I guess very interesting future waiting ahead of us that
• 48:43
  we are probably no one is expecting.
• 48:46
  Yeah, all these new cultivars in Northern Thailand, we just need
• 48:49
  to wait a few more years and I mean those when innovations
• 48:51
  we'll see, but this time for a Thai matcha.
• 48:55
  But but I think so this of the next year is.
• 49:00
  We've had a couple. It's very interesting.
• 49:02
  The color is not perfect, but the taste is interesting.
• 49:05
  It's good, very different. Yeah, yeah, a lot of lemon and
• 49:09
  like yellow lemon notes. A lot of almonds too.
• 49:13
  You're seeing the quality of Chinese matcha getting better
• 49:16
  slowly. Used to be like really bad
• 49:18
  everywhere, but now you are slowly seeing once a while a cup
• 49:23
  of matcha from China that was surprised.
• 49:26
  And I think that's, that's, that's, that's a future much
• 49:29
  needed for everybody. Yeah.
• 49:31
  Much more resilient. And really happy to see, you
• 49:34
  know, like Thailand and Korea and Taiwan drawing this, this
• 49:37
  whole community of Masha product.
• 49:39
  I think that's a very exciting future to see.
• 49:42
  Well, thank you so much. We really appreciate it and
• 49:45
  thank you to our audience. If you enjoyed this, please
• 49:48
  consider sharing with the front. If you're ever in Bangkok, you
• 49:50
  should absolutely check out China and we'll see you on the
• 49:54
  next one. Thanks so much.
• 49:56
  See you in the future. And see you in the future.
• 49:58
  Thank you.