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051 - XX Against the Epicureans and the Academics · Discourses of Epictetus

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  Speaker 1: Section fifty of Discourses of Epictetus by Epictetus, translated by
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  Speaker 1: George Long. This LibriVox recording is in the public domain.
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  Speaker 1: Read by Christine Rocker, January twenty seventh, twenty twenty two, Westford, Massachusetts,
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  Speaker 1: Book two, Chapter twenty Against the Epicureans and the Academics.
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  Speaker 1: The propositions which are true and evident are of a
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  Speaker 1: necessity used even by those who contradict them, And a
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  Speaker 1: man might perhaps consider it to be the greatest proof
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  Speaker 1: of a thing being evident, that it is found to
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  Speaker 1: be necessary even for him who denies it to make
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  Speaker 1: use of it. At the same time, for instance, if
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  Speaker 1: a man should deny that there is anything universally true,
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  Speaker 1: it is plain that he must make the contradictory negation
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  Speaker 1: that nothing is universally true. What wretch, do you not
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  Speaker 1: admit even this? For what else is this? Then? To
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  Speaker 1: affirm that whatever is universally affirmed is false? Again, if
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  Speaker 1: a man should come forward and say, know that there
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  Speaker 1: is nothing that can be known, but all things are
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  Speaker 1: incapable of sure evidence, or if another say, believe me,
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  Speaker 1: and you will be the better for it, that a
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  Speaker 1: man ought not to believe anything, or again if another
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  Speaker 1: should say, learn from me, man, that it is not
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  Speaker 1: possible to learn anything. I tell you this and will
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  Speaker 1: teach you if you choose. Now? In what respect do
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  Speaker 1: these differ from those whom shall I name, those who
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  Speaker 1: call themselves academics? Men agree with us? That no man
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  Speaker 1: agrees with another believe us, that know me and believes anybody.
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  Speaker 1: Thus Epicurus, also, when he designs to destroy the natural
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  Speaker 1: fellowship of mankind, at the same time makes use of
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  Speaker 1: that which he destroys. For what does he say? Be
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  Speaker 1: not deceived men, nor be led astray, nor be mistaken?
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  Speaker 1: There is no natural fellowship among rational animals. Believe me,
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  Speaker 1: But those who say otherwise deceive you and seduce you
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  Speaker 1: by false reasons. What is this to you? Permit us
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  Speaker 1: to be deceived? Will you fare worse if all the
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  Speaker 1: rest of us are persuaded that there is a natural
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  Speaker 1: fellowship among us, and that it ought by all means
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  Speaker 1: to be preserved. Nay, it will be much better and
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  Speaker 1: safer for you. Man. Why do you trouble yourself about us?
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  Speaker 1: Why do you keep awake for us? Why do you
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  Speaker 1: light your lamp? Why do you rise early? Why do
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  Speaker 1: you write so many books that no one of us
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  Speaker 1: may be deceived about the gods and believe that they
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  Speaker 1: take care of men, or that no one may suppose
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  Speaker 1: the nature of good to be other than pleasure. For
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  Speaker 1: if this is so, lie down and sleep and lead
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  Speaker 1: the life of a worm of which you judged yourself worthy.
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  Speaker 1: Eat and drink, and enjoy women, and ease yourself and snore.
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  Speaker 1: And what is it to you how the rest shall
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  Speaker 1: think about these things, whether right or wrong? For what
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  Speaker 1: have we to do with you? You take care of sheep,
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  Speaker 1: because they supply us with wool and milk, and last
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  Speaker 1: of all, with their flesh. Would it not be a
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  Speaker 1: desirable thing if men could be lulled and enchanted by
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  Speaker 1: the stoics, and sleep, and present themselves to you and
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  Speaker 1: to those like you, to be shorn and milked. For
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  Speaker 1: this you ought to say to your brother Epicureans. But
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  Speaker 1: ought you not to conceal it from others, and particularly
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  Speaker 1: before everything, to persuade them that we are by nature
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  Speaker 1: adapted for fellowship, that temperance is a good thing in
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  Speaker 1: order that all all things may be secured for you?
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  Speaker 1: Or ought we to maintain this fellowship with some and
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  Speaker 1: not with others, With whom then ought we to maintain it,
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  Speaker 1: with such as on their part also maintain it, or
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  Speaker 1: with such as violate this fellowship, and who violated more
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  Speaker 1: than you, who establish such doctrines. What then was it
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  Speaker 1: that waked Epicurus from his sleepiness and compelled him to
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  Speaker 1: write what he did write? What else was it, then,
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  Speaker 1: that which is the strongest thing in men, nature, which
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  Speaker 1: draws a man to her own will, though he be
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  Speaker 1: unwilling and complaining. For since she says, you think that
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  Speaker 1: there is no community among me, inkind write this opinion
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  Speaker 1: and leave it for others, and break your sleep to
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  Speaker 1: do this, and by your own practice condemn your own opinions.
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  Speaker 1: Shall we then say that Orestes was agitated by erringes furies,
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  Speaker 1: and roused from his deep sleep, and did not more
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  Speaker 1: savage erringees and pains rouse Epicurus from his sleep and
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  Speaker 1: not allow him to rest, but compelled him to make
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  Speaker 1: known his own evils, as madness and wine did the galley.
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  Speaker 1: The priests of cybel So strong and invincible is man's nature.
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  Speaker 1: For how can a vine be moved not in the
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  Speaker 1: manner of a vine, but in the manner of an
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  Speaker 1: olive tree, or on the other hand, how can an
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  Speaker 1: olive tree be moved, not in the manner of an
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  Speaker 1: olive tree, but in the manner of a vine. It
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  Speaker 1: is impossible. It cannot be conceived. Neither, then, is it
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  Speaker 1: possible for a man completely to lose the movement's effects
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  Speaker 1: of a man? And even those who are deprived of
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  Speaker 1: their genital members are not able to deprive themselves of
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  Speaker 1: man's desires. Thus, Epicurus also mutilated all the offices of
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  Speaker 1: a man, and of a father, of a family, and
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  Speaker 1: of a citizen, and of a friend. But he did
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  Speaker 1: not mutilate human desires, for he could not, not more
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  Speaker 1: than the lazy academics can cast away or blind their
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  Speaker 1: own senses, though they have tried with all their might
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  Speaker 1: to do it. What a shame is this when a
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  Speaker 1: man has received from nature measures and rules for knowing
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  Speaker 1: the truth, and does not strive to add these measures
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  Speaker 1: and rules and to improve them, but just the contrary
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  Speaker 1: endeavors to take away and destroy whatever enables us to
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  Speaker 1: discern truth. What say you, philosopher, Piety and sanctity? What
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  Speaker 1: do you think that they are? If you like, I
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  Speaker 1: will demonstrate that they are good things. Well, demonstrate it
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  Speaker 1: that our citizens may be turned and honor the deity,
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  Speaker 1: and may no longer be neglis about things of the
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  Speaker 1: highest value. Have you then the demonstrations I have, and
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  Speaker 1: I am thankful since then you are well pleased with them?
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  Speaker 1: Hear the contrary that there are no gods, and if
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  Speaker 1: there are, they take no care of men, nor is
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  Speaker 1: there any fellowship between us and them, And that this
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  Speaker 1: piety and sanctity which is talked of among most men
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  Speaker 1: is the lying of boasters and sophis, or certainly of legislators,
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  Speaker 1: for the purpose of terrifying and checking wrongdoers. Well done, philosopher,
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  Speaker 1: you have done something for our citizens. You have brought
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  Speaker 1: back all the young men to contempt of things divine.
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  Speaker 1: What then, does not this satisfy? You learn now that
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  Speaker 1: justice is nothing, that modesty is folly, that a father
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  Speaker 1: is nothing, a son nothing. Well done, philosopher. Persist persuade
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  Speaker 1: the men that we may have more with the same
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  Speaker 1: opinions as you, and who say the same as you,
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  Speaker 1: from such principles as these have grown our well constituted
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  Speaker 1: states by these was Sparta founded, like Kurgus, fixed these
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  Speaker 1: opinions in the Spartans by his laws and education, that
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  Speaker 1: neither is the servile condition more base than honorable, nor
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  Speaker 1: the condition of free men more honorable than base, And
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  Speaker 1: that those who died at Thermopylae died from these opinions.
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  Speaker 1: And through what other opinions did the Athenians leave their city?
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  Speaker 1: Then those who talk thus Marriyan beget children, and employ
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  Speaker 1: themselves in public affairs, and make themselves priests and interpreters
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  Speaker 1: of home of gods who do not exist. And they
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  Speaker 1: consult Pythian priestesses that they may hear lies, and they
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  Speaker 1: report the oracles to others. Monstrous impudance and imposture. Man,
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  Speaker 1: what are you doing? Are you refuting yourself every day?
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  Speaker 1: And will you not give up these frigid attempts? When
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  Speaker 1: you eat, where do you carry your hand to to
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  Speaker 1: your mouth or to your eye? When you wash yourself?
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  Speaker 1: What do you go into? Do you ever call a
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  Speaker 1: pot a dish or a ladle a spit? If I
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  Speaker 1: were a slave of any of these men, even if
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  Speaker 1: I must be flayed by him daily, I would rack him.
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  Speaker 1: If he said, boy, throw some olive oil into the bath,
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  Speaker 1: I would take pickle sauce and pour it down on
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  Speaker 1: his head. What is this? He would say, and appearance
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  Speaker 1: was presented to me. I swear by your genius, which
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  Speaker 1: could not be distinguished from oil, and was exactly like it. Here,
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  Speaker 1: give me the barley drink to sane, he says, I
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  Speaker 1: would fill and carry him a dish of sharp sauce.
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  Speaker 1: Did I not ask for the barley drink? Yes, mister,
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  Speaker 1: this is the barley drink. Take it and smell, Take
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  Speaker 1: it and taste. How do you know, then, if our
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  Speaker 1: senses deceive us, if I had three or four fellow
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  Speaker 1: slaves of the same opinion, I should force him to
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  Speaker 1: hang himself through passion or to change his mind. But
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  Speaker 1: now they mock us by using all the things which
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  Speaker 1: nature gives, and in words destroying them. Grateful indeed are
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  Speaker 1: men and modest, who, if they do nothing else, are
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  Speaker 1: daily eating bread, and are yet shameless enough to say,
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  Speaker 1: we do not know if there is a Demeter or
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  Speaker 1: her daughter Persephone, or a Pluto, not to mention that
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  Speaker 1: they are enjoying the night and the day, the seasons
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  Speaker 1: of the year, and the stars and the sea and
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  Speaker 1: the land, and the cooperation of mankind. And yet they
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  Speaker 1: are not moved in any degree read by these things,
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  Speaker 1: to turn their attention to them. But they only seek
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  Speaker 1: to belch out their little problem matter for discussion, and
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  Speaker 1: when they have exercised their stomach, go off to the bath.
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  Speaker 1: But what they shall say, and about what things, or
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  Speaker 1: to what persons, and what their hearers shall learn from
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  Speaker 1: this talk they care not even to the least degree.
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  Speaker 1: Nor do they care if any generous youth, after hearing
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  Speaker 1: such talk, should suffer any harm from it, nor after
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  Speaker 1: he has suffered harm, should lose all the seeds of
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  Speaker 1: his generous nature. Nor if we should give an adulterer
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  Speaker 1: help towards being shameless in his acts. Noh, if a
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  Speaker 1: public speculator should lay hold of some cunning excuse from
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  Speaker 1: these doctrines, nor if another who neglects his parents should
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  Speaker 1: be confirmed in his audacity by this teaching. What, then,
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  Speaker 1: in your opinion, is good or bad this or that?
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  Speaker 1: Why then should a man say any more in reply
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  Speaker 1: to such persons as these, or give them any reason,
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  Speaker 1: or listen to any reason from them, or try to
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  Speaker 1: convince them by Zeus, one might sooner expect to make
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  Speaker 1: catamites change their mind than those who are become so
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  Speaker 1: deaf and blind to their own evils. And of Book two,
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  Speaker 1: Chapter twenty