Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / 'BLOOD, CARNAGE, HORRIFIC,' July 4 Shootings: 'Perp Dressed Like Girl'

Transcript

'BLOOD, CARNAGE, HORRIFIC,' July 4 Shootings: 'Perp Dressed Like Girl' · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We've all just finished celebrating
0:16
Speaker 1: July fourth, celebrating the greatest country in the world, America.
0:23
Speaker 1: Can you imagine at the celebration hearing shots ringing out,
0:29
Speaker 1: then screams, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank
0:34
Speaker 1: you for being with us here at Fox Nation and
0:37
Speaker 1: Serious XM one eleven. Take a listen to this our
0:41
Speaker 1: friends at NBC. From every angle, chaos, confusion, and carnage,
0:49
Speaker 1: July fourth celebration through the center of town transformed into
0:53
Speaker 1: a mass casualty incident Factor shooter Colin Highland Party. Police
0:57
Speaker 1: say the gunman took a sniper like position, firing onto
1:01
Speaker 1: the parade from a roof using a high powered rifle.
1:04
Speaker 1: I picked up my kids and we ran again. I
1:07
Speaker 1: put them in a garbage dumpster, and then I ran
1:10
Speaker 1: back to look for my my partner and her daughter,
1:15
Speaker 1: and I saw people shot on the ground, the attack
1:18
Speaker 1: sending crowd scrambling panic, parents trying to protect their children.
1:22
Speaker 1: Just this horrific pow and then you heard people screaming,
1:30
Speaker 1: bodies down, you know, run for your life. That's what
1:33
Speaker 1: I heard. Joining us right now and All Star Panel.
1:36
Speaker 1: But first, let me go to Lynn Sweet with the
1:38
Speaker 1: Washington Bureau. She is the chief of the Chicago Sun Times.
1:43
Speaker 1: And oh witness Lynn, thank you for being with us.
1:45
Speaker 1: What happened, well, thank you. I am usually in Washington
1:50
Speaker 1: as the Washington bureau chief for the Chicago Sun Times,
1:53
Speaker 1: but on July fourth, I was in this suburb, about
1:56
Speaker 1: thirty miles north of downtown Chicago, just to enjoy the
2:00
Speaker 1: Highland Park Fourth of July parade. I have family here,
2:04
Speaker 1: been coming to this parade for years. There is a
2:06
Speaker 1: hiatus because of COVID. What happened, very briefly is I
2:10
Speaker 1: was at the beginning of the parade, near where the
2:12
Speaker 1: floats were assembling, and all of a sudden, I saw
2:16
Speaker 1: a sea of panicked people running towards me, racing towards me. Somebody,
2:23
Speaker 1: I said, you know what happened? Somebody said a shooter.
2:26
Speaker 1: The enormity of what bat meant did not strike me
2:31
Speaker 1: until a few minutes later when I made my way
2:34
Speaker 1: to the main parade route street called Central Avenue downtown
2:37
Speaker 1: Highland Park, and I saw what no one wants to see.
2:41
Speaker 1: I saw women and men who were wounded, and I
2:45
Speaker 1: saw sad to say, bodies, lots of blood and what
2:49
Speaker 1: the moment that is frozen in time, Nancy, is how
2:54
Speaker 1: people just abandoned everything they had, you know, their summer
2:59
Speaker 1: beach chairs, the blankets, knapsacks, especially baby buggies. Parents usually no,
3:05
Speaker 1: you just don't leave a baby buggy around. But that's
3:08
Speaker 1: how scary the situation must have been that everyone who
3:12
Speaker 1: had a baby in a baby carriage to scrabbed their
3:15
Speaker 1: child and ram with me is Lynn Sweet, the Washington
3:19
Speaker 1: bureau chief for the Chicago Sun Times. Lynn, you just
3:23
Speaker 1: describe something that always struck me when I would go
3:26
Speaker 1: to crime scenes. The smallest things, even in murder cases,
3:30
Speaker 1: would somehow take on a poignancy. I find it hard
3:35
Speaker 1: to describe. Lynne just described a mass shooting scene and
3:40
Speaker 1: she makes her way to it and finds baby buggies
3:45
Speaker 1: party Akutama. They're there for July the fourth. Tell me, Lynn,
3:50
Speaker 1: when you first heard the word shooter? So what you
3:55
Speaker 1: if you're saying? So what went through my mind? I thought?
3:58
Speaker 1: Was this a firecracker? Was it a firework? And even
4:03
Speaker 1: as I was making my way to the main part
4:06
Speaker 1: of the parade, I was thinking, this is a lot
4:10
Speaker 1: of people to be running this scared. If it was
4:13
Speaker 1: just one shot, but it didn't escape me. One shot
4:17
Speaker 1: would have been enough to have sent everybody reeling. The
4:22
Speaker 1: enormity of this being a mass killing with a rapid
4:27
Speaker 1: fire sought like a weapon with a high capacity magazine,
4:32
Speaker 1: which we would know more about later. As I was
4:36
Speaker 1: making my way there and saw all the carnage, I
4:38
Speaker 1: realized how fast this had to happen. And then, you know,
4:43
Speaker 1: some people told me boom, boom, boom, you know about
4:45
Speaker 1: the rapid fire sequence that they heard, and that it's
4:51
Speaker 1: what you know, how fast this destruction can happen, And
4:56
Speaker 1: the point for me, and I wrote this in my
4:59
Speaker 1: column at sun Times dot com. I've been covering massacres
5:04
Speaker 1: since Columbine in nineteen ninety nine, but it's been Washington
5:08
Speaker 1: congressional debate gun laws this time. On this July fourth,
5:14
Speaker 1: I was there. Can I ask you, Lynn, what led
5:17
Speaker 1: you to go toward what was happening and not run away? Nancy.
5:26
Speaker 1: It didn't dawn to me not to and to anyone
5:29
Speaker 1: who's listening, it's just not about me. You don't need
5:32
Speaker 1: to have any fuss about me. It never dawned to
5:35
Speaker 1: me not to do it. It. I just went I've
5:39
Speaker 1: been a reporter a long time. I'm from this community.
5:43
Speaker 1: I understood something terrible what was happening. It just never
5:46
Speaker 1: dawned to me not to go see what happened. I'm
5:49
Speaker 1: just imagining if I had my twins, you know, got
5:51
Speaker 1: boy girl twins at the July fourth festival or parade,
5:55
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, everybody starts running and screaming.
6:00
Speaker 1: I like my daughter, when she is approached with scary situations,
6:07
Speaker 1: she freezes other people run. Was there anybody left or
6:12
Speaker 1: had was it just cleared out like in a movie?
6:15
Speaker 1: There were people there and one other thing. Again, I
6:19
Speaker 1: do kind of like want to minimize what I did.
6:21
Speaker 1: If I had children with me, I probably would have
6:26
Speaker 1: made sure, you know, depending on the age. If I
6:28
Speaker 1: babies with me, I wouldn't have gone. I'm not silly.
6:31
Speaker 1: You don't do that, Nancy. If you were alone and
6:33
Speaker 1: you were with me, you might have gone too. Well.
6:35
Speaker 1: I would want to find out what was happening and
6:37
Speaker 1: see if anybody was heard them, maybe we could help
6:39
Speaker 1: or something for whatever reason. And so when I was there,
6:44
Speaker 1: the spectators were gone, there were people who were trying.
6:49
Speaker 1: I have vivid images of people leaning over the wounded
6:57
Speaker 1: people who put blankets over the dead, and then some
7:02
Speaker 1: people who surmised that it was over were hanging around watching.
7:07
Speaker 1: But I do the thought did go through my mind
7:10
Speaker 1: that the shooter had not been caught. I asked some
7:15
Speaker 1: law enforcement people who were really in a rush, you know,
7:19
Speaker 1: just I quickly said, it's the shooter here, and they
7:22
Speaker 1: said they don't know. So I was aware that a
7:26
Speaker 1: shot was at large. After shooting scene, I looked around.
7:30
Speaker 1: But I'm there in a professional capacity. Frankly, if I
7:34
Speaker 1: was just not there to work, I don't know why
7:38
Speaker 1: I would have stuck around. You catch a look at
7:40
Speaker 1: what's going on, and then you leave out of prudence,
7:43
Speaker 1: especially the land. And when you think about people like
7:46
Speaker 1: Eric Rudolph, remember him, the Olympic bomber. I was there
7:50
Speaker 1: that night, working in the DA's office the night of
7:52
Speaker 1: the Olympic bombing. I was there when the bomb went
7:55
Speaker 1: off and immediately started taking witness statements and trying to
7:58
Speaker 1: figure out what had happened. Within an hour we were
8:01
Speaker 1: interviewing witnesses. Do you know what he went on to do?
8:06
Speaker 1: Bomb an abortion clinic. My investigator went to the scene
8:10
Speaker 1: of the bombing of the abortion clinic and then he
8:14
Speaker 1: had it rigged, so another explosion would happened, and that
8:18
Speaker 1: shrapnel actually hit my investigator. So you're right if he
8:23
Speaker 1: if the shooter had not been apprehended, there's a huge
8:26
Speaker 1: possibility there can be more killings. Well, here's the thing. Also,
8:31
Speaker 1: at the moment, who knew if this was really a
8:33
Speaker 1: lone gunman, who knew if this was an organized terrorism attack,
8:39
Speaker 1: who knew what? So in terms of how other people responded,
8:46
Speaker 1: who were not directly there to help people, I don't
8:49
Speaker 1: know why they stuck around. There weren't many. Most of
8:52
Speaker 1: the people fled. I thought in the end it was
8:57
Speaker 1: not as chaotic as some people have to described it,
9:00
Speaker 1: only because from my point or view, did it result
9:03
Speaker 1: in everybody leaving quickly? Okay, so you have a little
9:07
Speaker 1: point of view. If everybody leaves quickly, then to me
9:13
Speaker 1: it's over. It by definition can't be the chaotic, even
9:18
Speaker 1: though I understand why people said it who were in
9:20
Speaker 1: the midst of it. A real chaotic thing is when
9:23
Speaker 1: people don't know to leave, can't leave, feel trapped right,
9:26
Speaker 1: can't get away, like in a concert or something. And
9:30
Speaker 1: there you hear in the midst of a mass sheating
9:32
Speaker 1: Lynn Suite that the bureau chief for the Chicago Sun
9:36
Speaker 1: Times in Washington is there in the midst of it.
9:40
Speaker 1: And you just heard one parent hid their children and
9:44
Speaker 1: trash cans. Take a listen to our friends at ABC.
9:48
Speaker 1: We all actually came out for a family outing. My
9:51
Speaker 1: husband works at Gearhead and we brought our three and
9:55
Speaker 1: one year old out, and my in laws were with us,
9:58
Speaker 1: and I was holding my one year old and behind us,
10:02
Speaker 1: I thought there was a sound of fireworks, and seconds
10:06
Speaker 1: later I realized that that's not what it was, So
10:08
Speaker 1: I believe I hit the ground with my daughter, and
10:11
Speaker 1: I remember looking around trying to figure out where the
10:14
Speaker 1: sound was coming from, and I in fact looked up
10:17
Speaker 1: at the neighboring business across the street and saw the
10:21
Speaker 1: shooter on the roof, and I just I screamed that
10:25
Speaker 1: it was a shooter, and I got my daughter and
10:27
Speaker 1: we ran into my husband's store, and I yelled for
10:30
Speaker 1: my son and my mother and father in law, and
10:32
Speaker 1: we all were able to get in safely, as my
10:34
Speaker 1: husband helped a whole bunch of other patrons get away
10:38
Speaker 1: from the danger. One sway with me, who not only
10:42
Speaker 1: the Washington bureau chief Chicago sentis but there at the
10:45
Speaker 1: mass shooting. How many lives had been confirmed claimed as
10:50
Speaker 1: a result of this one guy? As of last night,
10:54
Speaker 1: I was at the briefing that the law enforcement community
10:58
Speaker 1: put together. So far, we have seven dead, six have
11:02
Speaker 1: been identified, dozens injury time stories. With Nancy Grace. Joining
11:21
Speaker 1: me is Lisa Fine Cavalli, a survivor of the Mandalai
11:26
Speaker 1: shooting in Vegas. You can find her. She's a co
11:30
Speaker 1: founder of Route ninety one Strong. Lisa, what is all
11:36
Speaker 1: of this when you're hearing our friend Lynn Sweet described
11:41
Speaker 1: the shooting for all of these lives, which is ripped
11:44
Speaker 1: away for nothing? What is that evoking in you? You know, Nancy?
11:50
Speaker 1: It reminds me of the war zone that opened up
11:53
Speaker 1: in front of twenty two thousand of us at the
11:57
Speaker 1: concert in Vegas, and it was absolutely horrific. And I
12:04
Speaker 1: can only imagine what that was like there because I've
12:08
Speaker 1: lived it myself. Guys, take a listen to our cut
12:11
Speaker 1: five our friends at ABC. I just looked up. It
12:15
Speaker 1: was like a dream I had, Like I was like,
12:17
Speaker 1: this isn't real. That's all I could say to myself
12:19
Speaker 1: is this isn't real. But I needed everybody to know
12:22
Speaker 1: that there was a shooter. So I was just screaming
12:24
Speaker 1: that him. I just, I just I saw a long
12:27
Speaker 1: hair and I saw a gun, and that's all I
12:29
Speaker 1: could tell anybody but I. When I ran in the store,
12:31
Speaker 1: I was just like Tony. I saw him, Tony, I
12:33
Speaker 1: saw him, and it was we just ran down into
12:37
Speaker 1: the basement and we were just shaking and crying. It
12:39
Speaker 1: was horrific. And also from our friends at NBC, doctor
12:43
Speaker 1: David Baum along with doctor Lauren Scheckter, We're at the
12:46
Speaker 1: parade with their families, initially running for safety, then turning
12:50
Speaker 1: back around and treating the wounded. All of a sudden,
12:53
Speaker 1: there was a stampede of people coming and then I
12:56
Speaker 1: realized it was gunshots, and I literally just thought to myself,
13:00
Speaker 1: this is how it's going to end. At least six
13:02
Speaker 1: people shot and killed, more than thirty injured. The doctors
13:06
Speaker 1: couldn't believe what they were seeing. It was quite a
13:09
Speaker 1: horrific scene. As first responders tried to save lives, authorities
13:14
Speaker 1: launched a county wide dragnet looking for the shooter. Now
13:18
Speaker 1: take a list of our friends at WLS. Cellphone video
13:24
Speaker 1: capturing the sound of gunfire during Highland Parks July for
13:27
Speaker 1: the parade. Well, I guy has gotten out this morning.
13:31
Speaker 1: Police say the gunman was perched atop a roof, firing
13:35
Speaker 1: at parade goers who just gathered to celebrate the holiday.
13:38
Speaker 1: Everyone was basically running, screaming, there's a shooter, there's a shooter.
13:42
Speaker 1: Officials say at least six people were killed and more
13:44
Speaker 1: than thirty injured, parade goers taking cover anywhere they could
13:48
Speaker 1: for three hours. Donald Johnson hid in a gas station.
13:51
Speaker 1: There were six or seven children crying their eyes out,
13:55
Speaker 1: and the mothers finally got them settled down by singing
13:57
Speaker 1: the wheels on the best go around and round. This
14:00
Speaker 1: scene is horrific, the thought of mothers hiding with their
14:06
Speaker 1: children trying to calm them down by singing the wheels
14:09
Speaker 1: on the bus go around and over and over and over.
14:14
Speaker 1: To David Katz, a former senior special agent with the DA,
14:18
Speaker 1: founder and CEO of Global Security Group EKE, and active
14:23
Speaker 1: Sheeter response expert David way In, this was all planned
14:28
Speaker 1: out so far at that juncture, they have an ID
14:32
Speaker 1: on a lone shooter, white male, long hair, one gun
14:38
Speaker 1: jump in. Yeah, I mean, and this is just a
14:41
Speaker 1: story that repeats itself sadly, every time we speak about
14:45
Speaker 1: an incident like that, I always make the point that
14:50
Speaker 1: once you once you get further along the investigation, you're
14:54
Speaker 1: going to see what you're going to see, not warning signs,
14:57
Speaker 1: but screaming neon signs that this person announced to the
15:04
Speaker 1: entire world that they were violent, they would act violently.
15:08
Speaker 1: And still despite everything we've seen, despite every single tragic incident,
15:14
Speaker 1: despite hearing stories with mothers and their children, and nothing changes,
15:19
Speaker 1: nothing changes. Did you notice that the witness said the
15:23
Speaker 1: shooter had positioned himself on top of a building. Lisa
15:28
Speaker 1: find Cavalli, who survived the Mandalaid shooting, That's exactly what
15:33
Speaker 1: the Mandalaid shooter did in Vegas. He had everybody trapped,
15:37
Speaker 1: you know, there were concerts going on, nobody can really
15:40
Speaker 1: get out, and he was perched on a high location
15:43
Speaker 1: shooting out of a room. Yeah, it was like just
15:47
Speaker 1: a repeat of what happened almost five years ago, and
15:52
Speaker 1: it is happening over and over and again. And what
15:56
Speaker 1: is really really hitting my soul is these families, these children, mother's,
16:03
Speaker 1: father's grandparents, I mean, families are going to be changed
16:06
Speaker 1: for the rest of their life, the rest of their lives,
16:10
Speaker 1: you know, Lisa. I remember I was in New York,
16:14
Speaker 1: in New York City on September eleven working at Court TV,
16:20
Speaker 1: and for months and months after, for a long time,
16:24
Speaker 1: there was a no flies on over the city. The
16:26
Speaker 1: first time I saw an airplane go over the city,
16:33
Speaker 1: I was on a treadmill. I jumped off the treadmill
16:37
Speaker 1: instinctively and jumped down on the ground. Because once you
16:42
Speaker 1: live through something like that, you're never the same, much
16:46
Speaker 1: less losing your family member, your loved one, a friend
16:52
Speaker 1: in the tragedy, and Dale Carson joining me, high profile
16:56
Speaker 1: lawyer out of Jacksonville, former FBI agent and call and author.
17:01
Speaker 1: He's at Delcarson Law dot com. Del It's an instinct
17:05
Speaker 1: you never get over. Like Lisa is saying, that feel
17:09
Speaker 1: like you're trapped like a rat. You don't know where
17:11
Speaker 1: the guns are coming from. You're in a crowd, everybody's screaming,
17:15
Speaker 1: everybody's running. You may have your children with you. That's horrible, fancy.
17:20
Speaker 1: When I was in the FBI in Atlanta, I worked
17:22
Speaker 1: on the tactical team, and I can just tell you
17:26
Speaker 1: that these individuals are using history to make their killings
17:32
Speaker 1: even more effective. That elevated shooting position is the most
17:38
Speaker 1: dangerous and the result is that you run towards the shooter,
17:42
Speaker 1: not away from them, because it makes it more difficult
17:45
Speaker 1: to get hit. And they know this. And as we
17:48
Speaker 1: move along here, things are going to get more and
17:51
Speaker 1: more worse difficult with these copycat shootings that emulate what
17:57
Speaker 1: other people has successfully done. And it gets back to
18:01
Speaker 1: the history of these individuals, who, why are they so angry?
18:06
Speaker 1: What's making them behave this way? And there are gonna
18:10
Speaker 1: be neon size, as David Cats just said with Global
18:14
Speaker 1: Security Group, Inc. That nobody picks up until this happens.
18:20
Speaker 1: Take a list of our cut seven, our friends at CBS.
18:23
Speaker 1: Five people died on the scene here, another died at
18:26
Speaker 1: a nearby hospital. And among the dozens of victims people
18:29
Speaker 1: shot here at this Fourth of July parade, the oldest
18:32
Speaker 1: victim eighty five years old, the youngest just eight. A
18:39
Speaker 1: sudden burst of gunfire ten minutes after the start of
18:41
Speaker 1: a Fourth of July parade and parade participants and spectators
18:45
Speaker 1: running for their lives. The police had the gunmen open
18:48
Speaker 1: fire from a nearby rooftop. Might just remember seeing like
18:52
Speaker 1: smoke on the ground. I remember hearing shootings going like
18:57
Speaker 1: that's what, and then reloading and then again and people
19:01
Speaker 1: screaming and running. It was just really traumatizing and scary,
19:05
Speaker 1: a scene of chaos, with lawn chairs, bicycles and strollers
19:09
Speaker 1: left behind scattered along the parade route as people scrambled
19:12
Speaker 1: for safety. To David Katz, a former special agent with
19:16
Speaker 1: d EA, founder CEO Global Security, Inc. You already have
19:19
Speaker 1: one witness saying it was a white male with long
19:22
Speaker 1: hair and a single gun. What should be done in
19:25
Speaker 1: a situation like that to catch the purpose? Well, exactly
19:29
Speaker 1: what was done. This is all leg work. I mean
19:31
Speaker 1: to be running the gun, you're finding the identity, identity purchaser. Then,
19:35
Speaker 1: of course you have cameras. You may have eyewitnesses once
19:39
Speaker 1: the perpetrator gets off the roof. Maybe you have an
19:43
Speaker 1: eyewitness putting putting him in a car, maybe a camera
19:46
Speaker 1: shot putting him in a car. Now you have a license,
19:48
Speaker 1: Now you have a registration. Now you have a camera,
19:50
Speaker 1: a license plate voto. And then of course once you
19:55
Speaker 1: have an identification on a vehicle, well, now it's only
19:58
Speaker 1: a matter of he's riding by, he goes by a
20:00
Speaker 1: police officer, he has he is a license plate reader.
20:03
Speaker 1: He has set a little particular area a Bridgetoler tunnel.
20:06
Speaker 1: So it's only a matter of time before you're going
20:08
Speaker 1: to get a hit on the tag he's driving, or
20:11
Speaker 1: it may deal Carson just be luck. Like with Timothy
20:14
Speaker 1: McVey and the Oklahoma City bombing, he was pulled over
20:20
Speaker 1: on a traffic offense, and as I recall, they found
20:24
Speaker 1: indications of fertilizer and more in his trunk used to
20:30
Speaker 1: create a bomb. That was a fluke. Remember that's exactly right.
20:34
Speaker 1: That was really unusual. But here I understand that civilians
20:39
Speaker 1: actually saw the car, which was fairly notable, and the tag,
20:44
Speaker 1: and we're able to contact law enforcement who then stopped him,
20:48
Speaker 1: finding that he was armed yet again in that vehicle.
20:53
Speaker 1: And lo and behold, who does he turned out to
20:56
Speaker 1: be a rapper? Wanna be take us an hour cut nine.
21:01
Speaker 1: This is the Holland Park Police Chief Lou Jogman. What
21:04
Speaker 1: I can tell you at this moment was approximately fifteen
21:07
Speaker 1: minutes ago, the subject that we were looking for, the
21:10
Speaker 1: person of interest, Robert Kremo the third, was spotted by
21:13
Speaker 1: a North Chicago unit at Buckley and forty one. His vehicle.
21:17
Speaker 1: The vehicle that we were looking for the initiated attempt
21:22
Speaker 1: to initiate a traffic stop on that subject. That subject
21:24
Speaker 1: did flee, A brief pursuit went on. Ultimately they were
21:30
Speaker 1: able to get the subject stopped at Wesley and forty
21:33
Speaker 1: one in Lake Forest. The subject was taken into cuss
21:37
Speaker 1: without incident. So at this point, I again want to
21:40
Speaker 1: reiterate things are moving very quickly as they do unfortunately,
21:44
Speaker 1: and we just want to keep you updated with the
21:46
Speaker 1: most relevant information. The purse of interest is now being
21:50
Speaker 1: taken to the Highland Park Police Department where we're going
21:52
Speaker 1: to begin. You know, the next phase of the investigation
21:56
Speaker 1: is speak with this person to make sure or see
21:58
Speaker 1: if in fact he is connected to this incident. Joining
22:01
Speaker 1: me right now, special guest doctor Jillian Peterson, forensic psychologist,
22:05
Speaker 1: Professor Criminal Justice at Hamlin University and Saint Paul an
22:09
Speaker 1: expert on mass shootings. She is the author of the
22:13
Speaker 1: Violence Project, How to Stop a Mass Shooting Epidemic. We
22:17
Speaker 1: need you now more than ever, Daughter, Jillian Peterson, what
22:20
Speaker 1: do you make of what we know right now about
22:23
Speaker 1: not only the shooting itself, but the shooter. Yeah, a
22:26
Speaker 1: lot of the things that are emerging about this perpetrator
22:29
Speaker 1: are really similar to things that we see again and
22:31
Speaker 1: again and again. We studied one hundred and eighty of
22:34
Speaker 1: these perpetrators. So the fact that he was twenty one,
22:37
Speaker 1: the fact that he's posting things online really interested in violence,
22:42
Speaker 1: has a history of threatening his family members, has a
22:45
Speaker 1: history of suicidality and attempting suicide. A lot of this
22:50
Speaker 1: stuff is really consistent posting on these really dark message boards.
22:54
Speaker 1: What's a little different in this case is actually the
22:56
Speaker 1: fact that he wore a disguise. Because usually the traitor
23:00
Speaker 1: wants to be known for this, They want their name
23:03
Speaker 1: to make the history books. So throwing on a disguise
23:06
Speaker 1: and leaving the scene is actually something we haven't really
23:09
Speaker 1: seen before. Tell me what you find the most curious
23:14
Speaker 1: or probative about his postings online. You know, some of
23:18
Speaker 1: these message boards online are so dark and so violent
23:22
Speaker 1: it's hard to pick out sort of which specific posts
23:26
Speaker 1: is the one that's going to lead to someone actually
23:28
Speaker 1: doing this. But we do know amongst these perpetrators, they
23:32
Speaker 1: study each other, they identify with previous perpetrators, they post
23:38
Speaker 1: violent content, and it's so when you look back, you
23:42
Speaker 1: can just see all these glaring warning signs, like why
23:45
Speaker 1: didn't somebody pick up on this in his life? When
23:47
Speaker 1: you say dark websites, what do you mean by that exactly?
23:51
Speaker 1: I think he was posting on one that's a message
23:54
Speaker 1: board where people posts actual images and videos of sort
23:58
Speaker 1: of death and murderer and carnage, just really kind of
24:03
Speaker 1: awful stuff that it's hard to imagine anyone wanting to
24:06
Speaker 1: go on and look at for fun. But he was
24:07
Speaker 1: a really frequent poster on that discussion board. His name
24:11
Speaker 1: is Robert Bobby E. Cremo the Third and he performed
24:17
Speaker 1: as a rapper who went by the name Awake. His
24:22
Speaker 1: recent music videos include depictions of mass murder. Now, you know,
24:31
Speaker 1: doctor Jillian Peterson, if that's not a red flag, I
24:34
Speaker 1: don't know what it is. I fully agree with you.
24:37
Speaker 1: It's part of it is. I think it's we think
24:40
Speaker 1: of these as these scary outsiders. So it's hard for parents, neighbors, teachers, friends,
24:47
Speaker 1: to think this person posting the stuff could actually do this.
24:50
Speaker 1: Somebody I know could be the person who actually does this,
24:55
Speaker 1: and so we tend to dismiss or explain away all
24:57
Speaker 1: these really clear warning sides, being like posting depictions of
25:02
Speaker 1: mass shootings in your music video. His most recent video
25:05
Speaker 1: was posted to YouTube and it shows him standing there
25:09
Speaker 1: in the aftermath of a bloody school shooting. It ends
25:14
Speaker 1: with him draping himself in the American flag. And I
25:18
Speaker 1: want to circle back with you, doctor Peterson about that
25:21
Speaker 1: video being draped in the American flag and a mass
25:24
Speaker 1: shooting and this shooting that occurred on July the fourth.
25:28
Speaker 1: Another music video is a cartoon depiction of a man
25:31
Speaker 1: wearing a shirt with his YouTube channel's logo on it,
25:35
Speaker 1: but he's holding a long gun and he gets shot
25:39
Speaker 1: by police. It goes on and on and on. He
25:42
Speaker 1: had his own discord server where people would chat with him,
25:47
Speaker 1: and it was full of nihilistic police themes. It goes
25:55
Speaker 1: on and on. I wish politician still gave speeches like this.
25:59
Speaker 1: And there was a picture of a dwire the state
26:01
Speaker 1: treasurer that shot and killed himself on live TV. When
26:06
Speaker 1: you say dart videos and imagery, you're right. Are you
26:11
Speaker 1: saying that people chose to ignore it or they just
26:13
Speaker 1: couldn't fathom that the guy they thought they knew could
26:16
Speaker 1: do something like this. Yeah. That So all of that
26:20
Speaker 1: posting is something that we as researchers called leakage, So
26:24
Speaker 1: it is telling people you're thinking about this, posting it,
26:28
Speaker 1: writing it. And when it comes to young shooters, the
26:32
Speaker 1: vast majority, it's about eighty percent of them leak their
26:35
Speaker 1: plans ahead of time, so make it known. But yeah,
26:38
Speaker 1: it's sort of we miss the leakage. We don't take
26:40
Speaker 1: it seriously. We can't imagine it could really happen. We
26:43
Speaker 1: don't know who to report to or what to do
26:45
Speaker 1: with it. But I think when we think about preventing
26:48
Speaker 1: the next shooting, that's a really critical piece of it,
26:51
Speaker 1: you know, doctor Peterson. I remember when I was writing
26:54
Speaker 1: one of my books, my first nonfiction called Objection. I
26:59
Speaker 1: talked about blood money. People make money off murder, selling,
27:05
Speaker 1: for instance, the killer's hair or even their tonail clippings,
27:08
Speaker 1: if you can imagine, or their drawings or bits of
27:12
Speaker 1: pieces from murder scenes, or for instance, selling autopsy photos
27:16
Speaker 1: which are very, very upsetting. I had to do so
27:21
Speaker 1: much research on that laptop. When I finished the book,
27:26
Speaker 1: I destroyed the laptop. A just felt like it was
27:29
Speaker 1: cursed because there were so many bad images that I
27:35
Speaker 1: had looked up in order to write about them. And
27:38
Speaker 1: we've got this guy frequently posting the message boards discussing graphic,
27:44
Speaker 1: graphic descriptions of murder, suicide, and death. He even posted
27:49
Speaker 1: a picture a video of a beheading. I mean, for
27:53
Speaker 1: peace sake, if I knew that about my child or
27:58
Speaker 1: someone I loved, I would immediately get help for them,
28:02
Speaker 1: because there's something very wrong with that. Doctor. Yeah, absolutely,
28:07
Speaker 1: And that's what we need people to do. And it's
28:09
Speaker 1: that on top of the fact that there's nine one
28:12
Speaker 1: one calls to the house a couple of years prior
28:14
Speaker 1: because he's attempting suicide or because he's threatening to kill
28:17
Speaker 1: his entire family with his nice collection. I mean, we
28:20
Speaker 1: need to put it all together. It's hard to believe
28:23
Speaker 1: that no one thought we really need to connect this
28:25
Speaker 1: kid with some sort of resources. This is not okay,
28:28
Speaker 1: and that's what we need people to be doing. And
28:30
Speaker 1: doctor Peterson, what do you make of his rap persona awake?
28:35
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know. To me, it's that kind
28:37
Speaker 1: of quest to be known, right, that quest for fame,
28:41
Speaker 1: that he wanted people to look up to him to
28:45
Speaker 1: hear what he had to say, and that quest for
28:48
Speaker 1: kind of fame and notoriety is something we see a
28:50
Speaker 1: lot of in mass shooters, and in fact, a lot
28:53
Speaker 1: of times they do this their final act so that
28:56
Speaker 1: their name does make the history book, so that they
28:59
Speaker 1: can be known for this in a way that they
29:01
Speaker 1: weren't known in their life. His full name was quote
29:04
Speaker 1: Awake the Rapper. Now, having you prosecuted in Interciti Atlanta
29:12
Speaker 1: for so many years, to live here, you basically have
29:16
Speaker 1: to love rap. You have to no rap, you have
29:18
Speaker 1: to understand rap. But I see him Awake the Rapper
29:23
Speaker 1: is using that as a vehicle to disseminate hate violence.
29:31
Speaker 1: I mean you can see that in his lyrics and
29:34
Speaker 1: everything he did. Why do you believe that no one
29:39
Speaker 1: seemingly noticed or did anything about it? Doctor Peterson? You know,
29:42
Speaker 1: one thing that I think we're still struggling to figure
29:46
Speaker 1: out is how do you separate the people who end
29:49
Speaker 1: up doing this from other people posting violent content who
29:53
Speaker 1: don't do this right? And how do you criminally charge someone, say,
29:57
Speaker 1: for thinking or talking about violence. You can't do that right,
30:00
Speaker 1: they have to actually do it. So I think part
30:02
Speaker 1: of it is we don't know how to intervene, right.
30:05
Speaker 1: We don't know who to connect this person with, We
30:07
Speaker 1: don't know when to be concerned or when not to be.
30:09
Speaker 1: And so a lot of sport of new research in
30:11
Speaker 1: my area and forensic psychology is really focused on helping
30:15
Speaker 1: us figure this out. You know, this is reminded me
30:17
Speaker 1: of doctor Julian Peterson joining US Professor Criminal Justice at
30:22
Speaker 1: Saint Paul. We recently covered the case a handyman who
30:30
Speaker 1: was working for this beautiful young mom. Her name or
30:34
Speaker 1: saw your goal and if you look at her killer's profile,
30:40
Speaker 1: it's inundated with sex videos, pickup hints, murder scenes, rape scenes,
30:49
Speaker 1: stabbing scenes, and she was stabbed dead nearly sixty times.
30:55
Speaker 1: So I really believe that your social media, what you
30:58
Speaker 1: post is a window into your psyche. I really believe that.
31:05
Speaker 1: I mean, you have people that post all about their children,
31:07
Speaker 1: are all about their job or their interests, that's what
31:10
Speaker 1: they're about, And this is what he was posting. Doctor Yeah,
31:14
Speaker 1: I fully agree with you, And I think there's questions about,
31:18
Speaker 1: you know, what responsibility to social media platforms have for
31:21
Speaker 1: looking at this content. Who should be moderating it when
31:24
Speaker 1: we see something really concerning, who should we be telling?
31:27
Speaker 1: But really, there are people in his life who had
31:30
Speaker 1: to know that this is what he was posting. And
31:33
Speaker 1: that's when we need people to speak up. Take a
31:35
Speaker 1: listen cut twelve of our friends at ABC seven. Federal
31:38
Speaker 1: authorities are assisting in the investigation and pouring over as
31:41
Speaker 1: I mentioned kremos social media accounts which were told to
31:43
Speaker 1: pick graphic images and violent behavior. We're also told that
31:48
Speaker 1: Kremo will most likely appear in boncourt some time today. Again,
31:52
Speaker 1: the biggest thing we're waiting for right now are those
31:54
Speaker 1: chargers charges, the announcement of the charges. So we're expecting
31:58
Speaker 1: a news conference to happen and about ten minutes or so,
32:01
Speaker 1: little more than that here at the Highland Park Police Department,
32:04
Speaker 1: and we expect to learn more about charges being officially filed. Well,
32:08
Speaker 1: we also know Dale Carson, joining the high profile lawyer
32:11
Speaker 1: out of Jacksonville, former FBI agent. All we're learning about
32:15
Speaker 1: his social media is going to be used by the
32:18
Speaker 1: defense to claim insanity. But Dale Carson, I want you
32:23
Speaker 1: to listen to our cut thirteen. This is Lake County
32:26
Speaker 1: Major Crime Task Force spokesman Chris Cavelli. Listen carefully. We
32:30
Speaker 1: do believe Cremo pre planned this attack for several weeks.
32:35
Speaker 1: He brought a high powered rifle to this parade. He
32:38
Speaker 1: accessed the roof of a business via a fire escape
32:42
Speaker 1: ladder and began opening fire on the innocent Independence Day
32:46
Speaker 1: celebration goers. The rifle was purchased in Illinois, and the
32:51
Speaker 1: information we have thus far is that it appears to
32:54
Speaker 1: have been purchased legally by Cremo. During the attack, Premo
33:00
Speaker 1: dressed in woman's clothing, and investigators do believe he did
33:03
Speaker 1: this to conceal his facial tattoos and his identity and
33:07
Speaker 1: help him during the escape with the other people who
33:11
Speaker 1: were fleeing the chaos. During the attack, we believe that
33:14
Speaker 1: Karemo fired more than seventy rounds from this rifle into
33:17
Speaker 1: the crowd of innocent people. Time stories with Nancy Grace
33:40
Speaker 1: to Dale Carson, high profile lawyer joining me, former fair
33:43
Speaker 1: with the FBI. He is not insane. Did you hear
33:46
Speaker 1: the pre planning that was involved. Absolutely? I mean, this
33:50
Speaker 1: is a skill set that's adapted from other shooters behaviors,
33:55
Speaker 1: and it's what makes them so much more deadly than
33:58
Speaker 1: what would have occurred forty years ago. And the result
34:02
Speaker 1: ultimately is that people who are around this individual select
34:07
Speaker 1: the frog and the frying van where the water gets
34:10
Speaker 1: slowly heated because if you're watching him grow up as
34:14
Speaker 1: a child, you think, well, that's not so unusual, that's
34:17
Speaker 1: not so unusual. But for most on the outside, when
34:20
Speaker 1: we look at that child, we go that person is
34:24
Speaker 1: not right. You know. Many people are wondering how he
34:27
Speaker 1: managed to get away from the scene of the shooting
34:30
Speaker 1: take less an hour cut fourteen with the Lake County
34:34
Speaker 1: Major Crime Task Force. Following the attack, Cremo exited the roof,
34:37
Speaker 1: he dropped his rifle, and he blended in with the
34:40
Speaker 1: crowd and he escaped. He walked to his mother's home,
34:44
Speaker 1: who lived in the area, and he blended right in
34:47
Speaker 1: with everybody else as they were running around, almost as
34:49
Speaker 1: he was an innocent spectator as well. He borrowed his
34:54
Speaker 1: mother's vehicle. We issued an alert yesterday afternoon. Chief Jagman
34:59
Speaker 1: provided the vehicle information and Premo's information. How we're very
35:02
Speaker 1: thankful that an alert member of the community saw Premo's
35:05
Speaker 1: vehicle traveling southbound on Route forty one, dialed nine one.
35:10
Speaker 1: An alert or Chicago Police officer spotted the vehicle, waited
35:14
Speaker 1: for additional backup units to arrive, conducted a traffic stop,
35:18
Speaker 1: and they were able to safely apprehend Cremo with no
35:21
Speaker 1: injuries to the officers. Inside the vehicle. There was a
35:24
Speaker 1: second rifle located. Indications is that was purchased by Cremo
35:29
Speaker 1: as well. So I'm trying to figure out what this
35:32
Speaker 1: all means. But to Lisa Fine Cavelli, a survivor of
35:37
Speaker 1: the Vegas Mandalay shooting, when you hear all of this
35:41
Speaker 1: about the shooter in this case, Cremo, twenty two year
35:47
Speaker 1: old rapper want to be await the rapper? What goes
35:52
Speaker 1: through your mind and makes me concerned about our lives
35:57
Speaker 1: here in America? It makes you feel that how do
36:02
Speaker 1: we stop this? How do we save lives? What are
36:08
Speaker 1: we going to do? We can't go to concerts, Our
36:12
Speaker 1: kids at school are getting killed, movie theaters, churches, places
36:17
Speaker 1: of work. Nobody is safe anywhere, and it is it
36:22
Speaker 1: is still beyond that we live in this, you know,
36:27
Speaker 1: in the United States, and we are in a war
36:30
Speaker 1: zone while we go out and enjoy our lives. It
36:33
Speaker 1: twists me on the inside to think of all the
36:36
Speaker 1: people who have lost their lives at the hands of
36:39
Speaker 1: some want to be rapper who dressed like a girl
36:44
Speaker 1: to blend in and get away. This is very very
36:49
Speaker 1: carefully planned. This guy Kremo wasn't always like this. Take
36:55
Speaker 1: a listen to our cut sixteen in our friends at
36:58
Speaker 1: CBS and you's speaking with a Highland Park mayor. We
37:02
Speaker 1: were in the middle of a joyful celebration, having not
37:06
Speaker 1: had this parade for two years due to the pandemic.
37:09
Speaker 1: It was multi families deep along the freight route, with
37:14
Speaker 1: a lot of folks shouting out. It was really joyful
37:17
Speaker 1: and wonderful. I noticed the marching band racing down the
37:22
Speaker 1: sidewalk at one point and couldn't understand what they were doing.
37:25
Speaker 1: Thought maybe they were late for a performance. And then
37:28
Speaker 1: suddenly police cars were racing towards us, and again it
37:31
Speaker 1: was like, well, maybe somebody's having a heart attack. It
37:34
Speaker 1: just didn't register that somebody was committing a mass shooting
37:38
Speaker 1: in my city. My husband was right there, he was
37:41
Speaker 1: right in the viewing stands, and he said it was
37:44
Speaker 1: just measured pop pop, pop pop, And he said that's
37:47
Speaker 1: when they realized, after about fifteen of those that it
37:49
Speaker 1: wasn't fireworks, that it was gunshots. Yeah, what can you
37:53
Speaker 1: tell us about the suspect. I've heard that you you've
37:56
Speaker 1: had some connection to him in the past. I was
37:59
Speaker 1: his cub scout haackletter. He was a little boy at
38:01
Speaker 1: the time. I'm not sure what happened to him to
38:05
Speaker 1: compel him to commit this kind of evil in his hometown,
38:08
Speaker 1: in his own hometown. Joining me right now, longtime friend
38:13
Speaker 1: and colleague, doctor Michelle Dupree, former forensic pathologist, medical examiner,
38:18
Speaker 1: detective and author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Doctor Dupree,
38:24
Speaker 1: you and I have looked at a lot of crime scenes.
38:27
Speaker 1: You've performed a lot of autopsies, but when there is
38:31
Speaker 1: a mass shooting, I know it affects you in a
38:35
Speaker 1: different way. And then when you hear the shooter was
38:38
Speaker 1: once a come scout, like every other kid normal Seemingly
38:45
Speaker 1: when you're doing autopsies are investigating it shootings like this,
38:50
Speaker 1: is it hard to fathom the shooter was once a
38:53
Speaker 1: normal kid. Nancy it is. I mean, this is so horrific.
38:56
Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine anybody could do this, But someone
39:00
Speaker 1: who has a pass to being a cub scout or
39:02
Speaker 1: boy scout, you just don't think of that. It's it's
39:07
Speaker 1: hard just to du pre In addition to of course
39:09
Speaker 1: being medical examiner, you're also detective with Lixton County Sheriff's Department.
39:14
Speaker 1: What can you tell me about the gun used in
39:17
Speaker 1: this case? And I see this is an an AAR
39:20
Speaker 1: type of a long gun, a rifle. It is a
39:24
Speaker 1: high powered and the reason it's high powered is because
39:27
Speaker 1: the bullets when they come out, they travel so fast,
39:30
Speaker 1: and that that's what causes the damage. This type of
39:33
Speaker 1: gun causes enormous damage to the target it hits. I
39:37
Speaker 1: mean a wound in a person the size would be
39:40
Speaker 1: the size of an orange or bicker when it exits
39:42
Speaker 1: the body. It's just horrific. What do you make of
39:45
Speaker 1: what the witness said that there was a measured pause
39:50
Speaker 1: between each shoot, in between each firing. Well, this type
39:54
Speaker 1: of a rifle, it's actually a semi automatic, and so
39:57
Speaker 1: one round is fired with each trigger pull. But you
40:00
Speaker 1: can pull the trigger in rapid succession. So even though
40:04
Speaker 1: it is a semi automatic, it can fire anywhere from
40:08
Speaker 1: thirty to seventy five pounds per minute. Let me ask you,
40:11
Speaker 1: Dota de three, what the shooting victims and one victim
40:16
Speaker 1: was shot in a wheelchair. What these victims went through?
40:21
Speaker 1: Would they based on what you've just told me about ballistics,
40:24
Speaker 1: would they have survived long enough to understand what was
40:28
Speaker 1: happening to them to see everybody running and screaming as
40:31
Speaker 1: they bled out. Of course, you know that depends on
40:34
Speaker 1: where they were shot. I mean, we have one victim
40:36
Speaker 1: that was actually grazed in the leg and she survived.
40:39
Speaker 1: If you have a direct hit by this in the
40:42
Speaker 1: core of your body, the central part of your body,
40:44
Speaker 1: you are not likely to survive. It's going to be
40:47
Speaker 1: very fast. You are still going to be in shock
40:51
Speaker 1: within a minute or so. Other people, depending again on
40:54
Speaker 1: where they're hit, they're going to know what's going on.
40:56
Speaker 1: And certainly, if you're not the first person shot, you're
40:59
Speaker 1: going to hear the gunshots, You're going to see people running,
41:01
Speaker 1: You're going to be afraid, and then all of a sudden,
41:04
Speaker 1: you're going to also feel that it's going to be horrific.
41:07
Speaker 1: Tell me again about the bullet, the type of amma used, Well,
41:11
Speaker 1: there are different types of amma that can be used
41:13
Speaker 1: in these guns, typically something like a Tuccio three or
41:17
Speaker 1: something of that nature. But there are several different types
41:19
Speaker 1: of ammas. But in all cases, again they're high powered.
41:23
Speaker 1: And the reason that they're high powered is because I
41:25
Speaker 1: don't want to get into math here. It's not much
41:27
Speaker 1: trying subject, but the velocity or the speed of that
41:31
Speaker 1: bullet is something around thirty two hundred feet per second
41:35
Speaker 1: per se. A handgun is much much slower than that,
41:38
Speaker 1: so the killing power, if you will, is a little less,
41:42
Speaker 1: and that's what makes these so dangerous. It's why the
41:45
Speaker 1: military use this type of gun on one similar it's
41:49
Speaker 1: a killing machine. To you, Lisa find Cavalli shooting survivor,
41:55
Speaker 1: what's your final thought today? I hope that our leaders
41:58
Speaker 1: can come together and do whatever it takes to make
42:02
Speaker 1: the stop. It has got to stop. It is people,
42:07
Speaker 1: the ripple effect of the damage of all of these
42:11
Speaker 1: innocent lives being murdered, and it seems like it's happening
42:14
Speaker 1: every week. I hope that we can get solutions. I
42:18
Speaker 1: don't care what it takes. We need solutions to this
42:21
Speaker 1: massacre of these lives. The war zone is opening up
42:26
Speaker 1: on our lives every day we walked out of that
42:28
Speaker 1: door and we could be involved in a mass shooting.
42:31
Speaker 1: It's got to stop. Oh we wait as justice un
42:35
Speaker 1: false Nancy Grace Crumb story signing off. That's