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Lulu Sunnucks - Clinical Sexologist & Psychotherapist · F*ck Off Fridays

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Fuck Off Fridays with your girl Liv and your girl Charlie.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: This week we have the lovely Lulu Sonnox from Cotword Sex Therapy.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: Cotswold Sex Therapy.
0:23
SPEAKER_01: So we've been banging on about this with our friends for weeks and weeks.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: And we finally have you here.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: And we have a mix of questions.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: But first things first, you are based in the Cotswolds, yes.
0:40
SPEAKER_01: Whereabouts are you if people just want to put face to a name and social media and things?
0:46
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
0:46
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I have a clinic in Stowe, uh Stowe on the World.
0:50
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I see um international clients online as well.
0:54
SPEAKER_02: So I work sort of 50-50.
0:56
SPEAKER_02: Okay, cool.
0:57
SPEAKER_02: Half time from the clinic and half time online.
0:59
SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: Okay, great.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: And I would like to know what is a sex therapist?
1:06
SPEAKER_00: How did you get into it?
1:07
SPEAKER_00: What does a day in a life look like?
1:11
SPEAKER_02: Well, it's very varied, as you can imagine.
1:14
SPEAKER_02: The whole sort of spectrum of human sexuality and relationship presentations, it covers, I cover everything.
1:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, uh so a sex therapist or a clinical sexologist um or a psychosexual therapist, lots of different terms.
1:28
SPEAKER_02: Um, basically, we work with um challenges, difficulties, um, issues, uh, relationship problems.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: Um, so I work with couples, thropples, uh, quads, individuals, on absolutely anything to do with their relationship or sexuality.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: So that could range from the very sort of ugly, sticky end of something like child sexual abuse all the way through to BDSM, kink, fetish, open relationships, um, and everything in between.
2:00
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, erectile issues, uh, vaginismus, painful sex, um, orgasm disorders, desire discrepancy in couples, uh, people that are considering opening up their relationship and want to navigate that together, uh, people that are questioning their sexuality, um, questioning their gender, um, people that want to explore their fantasies, learn more about their erotic minds, so absolutely everything.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: So diverse.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: Way more diverse than I thought.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's amazing.
2:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and uh a day in the life can be, you know, anything as varied as that anything that anyone can come through the door.
2:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
2:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I see it all.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: And for your international clients, how you know, if you're doing like calls and things, a bit how how do people how do people find you?
2:44
SPEAKER_00: Are you quite highly regarded in the in the sex therapy world?
2:48
SPEAKER_02: Oh I I don't know about that, but um I think I've been doing quite a lot of um press and media, so I I write for some um I've written some uh written for some some big publications, so obviously that puts the name out.
3:01
SPEAKER_02: Um I have a lot of word of mouth referrals, which is really lovely.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
3:05
SPEAKER_02: Um and um I guess yeah, this certain search words on Google, you know, it's it's obviously, you know, the world of of uh psychosexual therapy or clinical sexology is a lot smaller than the broader psychotherapy.
3:18
SPEAKER_02: So if people are putting in certain search words, then only a certain number of people are going to come up.
3:23
SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: Um this is a question you wanted to put.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, if you're happy for me to ask.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: Fetishes.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: Where do they come from?
3:35
SPEAKER_01: How, why are they developed?
3:38
SPEAKER_02: Well, the school of thought that I tend to um go with is that it's uh they they tend to be um created as a result of about three, three or four different things.
3:48
SPEAKER_02: Um obviously biologically, we're wired for arousal anyway, as humans.
3:54
SPEAKER_02: We are sensation-seeking, um, so um, you know, that certain things are going to feel nice, but essentially in childhood or adolescence, the sc the theory goes that um normally something will happen that has emotional significance, doesn't necessarily have to be a sexual situation, it could be something humiliating, it could be um being on the wrong side of something being punished, it could be being isolated or degraded, something like that.
4:23
SPEAKER_02: So there'll be a very emotionally significant childhood or adolescent experience.
4:28
SPEAKER_02: That together with being sort of biologically wired for arousal anyway, then there will be some kind of um sexual feeling.
4:38
SPEAKER_02: Um, so I'll give you an example in a minute, but the the sexual feeling tends to get wired to that emotionally significant experience.
4:48
SPEAKER_02: So those two things fuse together, and then if there is any um sort of shame or embarrassment or taboo or secrecy around that thing, that intensifies the arousal.
5:03
SPEAKER_02: So transgression is erotic, which is why affairs happen.
5:07
SPEAKER_02: It's something very sexually charged around the sort of secretive or the the sort of um the shameful, the taboo.
5:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, and that could be culturally shaped, it could be shaped by the family, it could be shaped by religion, it could be yeah, it could be an inherited script of sorts, but the combination, that heady cocktail of all of that tends to create the um fetish.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:33
SPEAKER_02: I'll just clear up something.
5:35
SPEAKER_02: So the difference, I don't know if you know the difference between kink and fetish.
5:39
SPEAKER_02: No, please please do exactly.
5:41
SPEAKER_02: Okay, yeah.
5:41
SPEAKER_02: So um kink is a nice to have, fetish is a need to have.
5:46
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
5:47
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
5:48
SPEAKER_02: So, and it's you know, it's all all of it's kind of intertwined with BDSM as well, which is um bondage and discipline, domination and submission, sadism and masochism.
5:58
SPEAKER_02: That's what the BDSM stands for.
5:59
SPEAKER_02: So, of course, this is all interlinked, but a fetish would be something that has to be there, a stimulus or an object or a scene that has to be there in order for the person to reach climax, ejaculate, or orgasm.
6:14
SPEAKER_02: A kink is something that's a nice to have and doesn't necessarily have to be there.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: It's interesting hearing the difference between the two, because I think fetish and think uh it's just a a kink that someone's into, but actually knowing that it runs a lot deeper than that a lot deeper is interesting.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: Could you give us uh obviously you more in this world than we are?
6:34
SPEAKER_00: Can you give us an example of like a kink versus what a fetish might look like?
6:39
SPEAKER_00: And also maybe how something might get formed.
6:42
SPEAKER_02: So I think it's um just to just to say that what's really what is really fascinating is that um particularly if we think about male-bodied people, of their genitalia is on the outside.
6:55
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so it's a lot easier um to kind of associate touch, touching oneself and getting that sexual stimulus um for a male-bodied person versus a female, where the all everything is on the inside.
7:09
SPEAKER_02: So if you think of something like a little boy being told off or humiliated or degraded or publicly shamed, something like that for something that they've done, it's very emotionally significant that particular time of their life, and they may then go and self-soothe by touching themselves, and then that is how the association could be formed.
7:30
SPEAKER_02: So something like that.
7:31
SPEAKER_02: So we learn to kind of masturbate masturbate or it feels nice or it relieves that those difficult feelings after something emotionally significant.
7:40
SPEAKER_02: Now, arousal is highly conditionable, which means that if something, even if it was coincidentally was present, a stimulus was coincidentally present, that then can become the fetish.
7:53
SPEAKER_02: Again, another example might be a little child who is um who used to sit by their mother's legs while they were watching television or something, or and mother used to wear stockings or something along those lines.
8:08
SPEAKER_02: And so there is an association with that feeling kind of nurturing.
8:12
SPEAKER_02: Most fetishes most most fetishes, not all, are generally around sort of quite comforting things.
8:19
SPEAKER_02: So it could be um something sensual on the skin, um, it could be a uh it could be anything, but generally it's something sort of quite comforting and soothing.
8:29
SPEAKER_02: Um the fetishes and the kinks that's that tend to develop around things that are uh most people would consider um disgusting or that people are squeamish about, or things that are sort of to do with like pain infliction or um bruising or restricting airways or restraint or all of those kind of things.
8:53
SPEAKER_02: Um they um it's usually about the sort of taboo side of things, or it's people trying to work through something.
9:04
SPEAKER_02: So um the arousal by fear and arousal by desire are very similar in the body as well.
9:12
SPEAKER_02: That's also something quite important to say.
9:14
SPEAKER_02: So it feels the same in the body, you get high, you know, an increased heart rate, adrenaline, um, a heightened sort of arousal sense.
9:21
SPEAKER_02: So actually, it's a sympathetic response that's the same for arousal from desire or fear.
9:27
SPEAKER_02: So the two things sit very, very closely and can get sort of merged in the psyche.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: So does while I've thought about it, actually.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: I hope you don't mind me bringing that up.
9:37
SPEAKER_01: Would that be the same with someone that likes to flash people?
9:40
SPEAKER_01: Because Charlie got flashed.
9:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's what I was just thinking about.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: I was yeah, yeah, yeah.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna ask you about that.
9:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so that's that's probably to do with the sort of risk element.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: But as soon as you said something that's like taboo or you shouldn't be doing it, I immediately thought of the man in the woods flashing me.
9:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so the the the risk, that sort of heightened arousal state can become eroticised and sexualized.
10:03
SPEAKER_02: But it's it's problematic because of course the person on the on the receiving end is not consenting, nothing has been negotiated.
10:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely right.
10:12
SPEAKER_02: And it's you know, sometimes we see a bit of a pattern of behaviour forming where people will get braver and braver and then sort of lead.
10:18
SPEAKER_02: It can, not always, but it could, you know, potentially lead to sexual assault because people sort of get braver and braver and get away with more and more.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: What my friend in the police said to me really tends to escalate.
10:29
SPEAKER_02: It can escalate, absolutely.
10:30
SPEAKER_02: But the fact is that you were not consenting, which is the big marker for the kink BDSM and fetish world versus abuse.
10:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
10:39
SPEAKER_02: So interesting.
10:40
SPEAKER_02: A lot of the people in the kink and fetish um BDSM world, their community, are extremely psychologically healthy.
10:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, I think they're thought of as not being that, but in fact they are because they're very happy to talk about boundaries, edges, they negotiate consent.
10:57
SPEAKER_02: It's you know, they they take care of one another in the scenes, there's safe words, there's aftercare.
11:02
SPEAKER_02: Um, completely different to abuse, where you might have somebody who's completely sadistic because they just want to hurt somebody.
11:09
SPEAKER_00: So, for example, with the man who flashed me in your line of work, would it be normal for if someone were um convicted for indecent exposure, for example, or would it be normal that someone like that might be referred to a sex therapist to talk through, as opposed to a run-of-the-mill therapist psychologist?
11:31
SPEAKER_00: Is it normal that they might be referred to someone like you?
11:33
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
11:34
SPEAKER_02: Um, and there are there is there is specialist training as well, so that you can do forensic psychosexual um courses, you can do sort of sexual offending courses as well to work with sexual uh sex offenders if you want to go into that line of work.
11:52
SPEAKER_02: Um I have a uh a really fantastic network of of psychosexual therapists and clinical sexologists that I will refer case certain cases on to.
12:01
SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, that is certainly something I can I can work with, yeah.
12:04
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: And how did you land in the line of work that you're in?
12:08
SPEAKER_00: So in terms of like going to university, studying psychology, and then did you then have a particular interest in this area of psychology?
12:16
SPEAKER_02: Yes, so I did cognitive psychology at uni.
12:19
SPEAKER_02: Um, I then took a massive detour for two decades working for um the global elite as a chief of staff.
12:26
SPEAKER_02: So I was running hundreds of people all over the world for various different individuals.
12:31
SPEAKER_02: Um, sort of reached a bit of a uh a point of burnout with with that.
12:36
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that really is a 24-7-365 job.
12:40
SPEAKER_02: Uh a lot of stress, a lot of accountability.
12:42
SPEAKER_02: You know, everything kind of is is always your fault, and they everybody needs everything five minutes ago.
12:46
SPEAKER_02: So it's a lot of stress, a lot of pressure.
12:49
SPEAKER_02: But I did love it.
12:50
SPEAKER_02: I absolutely really, I really, really enjoyed it.
12:52
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I just I sort of got to a point, I I I worked for an individual um who I'd always wanted to work for.
13:00
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I I I worked for him for about three years, finished that role, and then I thought, I think I'm done in terms of energy levels now.
13:07
SPEAKER_02: I need to find something that's going to sort of take me into my older years, something I can get better at with age, something that is going to be um, you know, constant learning and constant development.
13:18
SPEAKER_02: Always been interested in people.
13:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:20
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I decided to do a master's in um psychotherapy, a broad sort of psychotherapy um masters.
13:29
SPEAKER_02: Um, and as part of that, I needed to do clinical hours, which I did.
13:34
SPEAKER_02: Um, I had to do 200 clinical hours, and I did that in a women's refuge.
13:38
SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
13:39
SPEAKER_02: And domestic abuse and violence often goes hand in hand with sexual violence.
13:43
SPEAKER_02: It's it's you know, um, a lot of women in domestic abuse relationships are raped routinely.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: It's it's something, you know, it's a complete um uh power dynamic, so and that obviously involves um sex as well.
13:55
SPEAKER_02: And I felt at the time woefully unqualified to sort of help these women with that particular presentation.
14:02
SPEAKER_02: Um, and a lot of the women I was working with um were actually, you know, the the abuse was historic, the trauma was historic, and they were actually in in healthy relationships, but were unable to really reclaim their bodies and really understand their own sexuality and their own um erotic landscape because many of them had experienced child sexual abuse as well and had just had a whole lifetime of trauma.
14:26
SPEAKER_02: So as soon as I finished my um my master's, I went straight into a two-year clinical sexology um course, uh post-grad diploma, and I and for my clinical hours there was sort of sexual assault and a rape centre and the NA and within the NHS as well.
14:43
SPEAKER_02: So then I started to specialise.
14:45
SPEAKER_02: I still do see general psychotherapy clients, yeah, but I am getting much more kind of uh a bit more niche now.
14:54
SPEAKER_02: And in terms of the the work that I do, I really love working with couples and I really enjoy this sort of kink BDSM and fetish side of things.
15:04
SPEAKER_02: So again, I think it's starting to like funnel down even more, you specialise even more.
15:09
SPEAKER_00: So interesting.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: And with fetishes, obviously the word foot fetish is banded around like no one's business, and I think people don't really understand it.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: But from the work that you've done, if you're able to share, and if you can't, then don't worry.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: But what would you deem is like one of the most unusual fetishes that you've come across?
15:29
SPEAKER_02: Oh, just to say on the foot fetishing, it's extremely common, and one of the reasons why it's so common is because the um there's a part of the brain which is responsible for the sort of the the nerve endings and the sensory receptors and the genitals sit next to the feet.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
15:46
SPEAKER_02: So they're right next to each other and nipples.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: Oh, because people obviously talk about oh, I might sell photos of my feet.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, yeah, and it's it it's just something that's just you know it's really having a tough financial time, sell photos of your feet, and it's just kind of like banded around as a bit of a joke.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that's so interesting to understand the science behind it.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: I think it's called the sensory cortex, and um, yes, uh it's whether it's toes or feet, uh, that sits right next to the genitals in the brain.
16:10
SPEAKER_02: So very like the nerve endings are kind of going right to the same place.
16:14
SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, I I obviously can't talk about anything that I see, but I will talk about something um which I haven't had in clinic, but I have heard other colleagues have seen.
16:24
SPEAKER_02: It's a very, very niche um phenomenon and it's called bug chasing.
16:31
unknown: Okay.
16:31
SPEAKER_00: Can you imagine what this is like a fun game of like let's say it works?
16:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes, what do you think it might mean?
16:36
SPEAKER_00: What do you think it might mean?
16:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm concerned what it might mean.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: No, no idea.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: If I was to take a guess, I would say putting an insect inside someone and then trying to find it.
16:46
SPEAKER_02: That's uh that's that would be a really good guess.
16:48
SPEAKER_02: That's actually called uh for mycophilia.
16:51
SPEAKER_02: Oh god, there's a name for that.
16:52
SPEAKER_02: There's a name for that, yeah.
16:53
SPEAKER_02: There's a name for everything.
16:54
SPEAKER_02: I am learning today.
16:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so that's um people sort of um really, really stimulated by little insects or snails on the genitalia.
17:01
SPEAKER_02: So that's for mycophilia.
17:02
SPEAKER_02: But actually, bug chasing um is where people actively seek out being uh like catching an STD or an STI.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: Oh yes.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I didn't know that.
17:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and these the people that kind of give or transmit the infection or the disease.
17:19
SPEAKER_02: Um, and and I think it I think if I remember rightly from reading the research, that it's actually to it was a really, really very small subculture of um gay men um that were interested in kind of getting HIV.
17:33
SPEAKER_02: And so they're called they're called bug chasers and gift givers.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: So the gift givers are the people that kind of pass it on, pass it on.
17:40
SPEAKER_02: Wow, and uh and again this is linked to the risk, so the risk kind of gets eroticized.
17:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, there's some power, there's control, there's submission.
17:52
SPEAKER_02: Um, there's um the some of the names that they refer to them as um, I think it's pos daddy and pos son.
17:59
SPEAKER_02: So there's a definitely a dynamic exchange there with and and for some people it could be wanting to be part of a community, it might help with their identity formation, feeling belonging.
18:11
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, and for some people that operate in you know that that socialise in those kind of communities, running the risk of do I have something, do I not, actually to know that you have something confirmed kind of gives as unfamiliar as we might be with this particular fetish, it gives them a sense of like, okay, I know I've got something, it's sort of sort of like a certainty.
18:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:35
SPEAKER_02: Um, but on websites such as Field and Fat Life, um, where communities go to sort of you know meet meet others and and and meet up and go to events and things like that, you know, they they have like little icons, like little biohazard icons.
18:50
SPEAKER_02: And some people get tattoos so that they actually don't even have to bother sort of explaining.
18:54
SPEAKER_02: People just know that they've got something.
18:56
SPEAKER_02: Wow, yeah.
18:57
SPEAKER_02: So that's probably the most unusual or avoid.
19:00
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
19:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
19:02
SPEAKER_02: So it's probably the most unusual.
19:03
SPEAKER_02: But uh again with anything, you know, a lot of these, a lot of fetishes and kinks result from something really human, you know, like a really human logical response.
19:14
SPEAKER_02: Um, and they deserve not to be stigmatized, they deserve not to be shamed for it, you know, if we can sort of understand the deep psychology of it.
19:23
SPEAKER_02: But then there are a lot of people that I see that actually don't want things explained, they don't want to understand where it comes from, they just want to just chat it through, negotiate it or navigate it or you know, figure out how to kind of explore it safely.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: So they don't want the awareness around it.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: So some don't.
19:41
SPEAKER_01: Because I would sit in therapy, like I have therapy, and I would sit and I go, This bothered me, and I know why, and I know where it's come from.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: They don't want to do that.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: Some don't.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, some really do.
19:51
SPEAKER_02: And for some, it could be linked to trauma.
19:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:54
SPEAKER_02: Not everybody, I think there's a misconception that it's all linked to trauma, it's absolutely not the case.
19:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:59
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, the sort of emotionally significant experiences I was talking about earlier, doesn't always have to be traumatic.
20:05
SPEAKER_02: It could just be just that little snapshot of time where something kind of gets set in the psyche.
20:11
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: So can we ask this?
20:15
SPEAKER_01: Is I think this is a you one.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: Are men weirder than women sexually with vestiges and things like that?
20:22
SPEAKER_01: Or is it similar?
20:24
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I'm I'll just very gently challenge you on the weirder, on the word weirder.
20:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:30
SPEAKER_02: Um anything that's weird is kind of just unfamiliar.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'd say your language is very like non-judgmental, very open, which is really like the unknown.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: Like you don't really have the word normal.
20:40
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
20:41
SPEAKER_02: And and actually um Freud had a fantastic concept, which was um he basically said that all of us um have something called polymorphous perversion, which means none of us are normal, none of us are decent, we all have sexual and aggressive drives, yeah, which kind of you know mean that we reach out and explore these things.
21:02
SPEAKER_02: So I think for anybody that's sort of like, oh, I'd never do that, you know, so judgmental.
21:07
SPEAKER_02: Again, I'd be looking at, well, what are you judging in yourself?
21:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, interesting.
21:10
SPEAKER_02: Projection, sort of thing.
21:11
SPEAKER_02: Projection, yes, exactly.
21:13
SPEAKER_02: So um, so are men, so are men interested in more sort of unconventional things and women might be a more thing.
21:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I like it.
21:23
SPEAKER_02: Um I actually think on this that women's sexuality has long been policed and pathologized.
21:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:29
SPEAKER_02: So I actually think it's less about the sort of desire gap and more about maybe the reporting gap.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
21:35
SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think we have a lot more data on men.
21:39
SPEAKER_02: Um, but if we think about somebody fabulous like Sheer Height, who was a sex American sexologist in the 70s, she produced that fantastic study of a thousand women and all of their kind of kinks and likes and fantasies, which was extraordinary.
21:54
SPEAKER_02: Now we've got Gillian Anderson with her book Want, which is a um pretty much a similar A thing.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: But um, yeah, I think I think it's just about data.
22:03
SPEAKER_02: I have to say, however, clinically, I do see more men with compulsive sexual behaviour, more uh porn, you know, problematic porn use.
22:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:15
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I do tend to see more men interested in the kind of more violent sort of sides of fetish and and domination and uh sadism.
22:27
SPEAKER_02: Again, obviously practice safely, but I do tend to see that, I would say.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: No, I agree with that because I think women don't really you don't really get a chance to we get we get shamed for it, I guess, a bit more.
22:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: Um so you don't really get to talk about it.
22:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:46
SPEAKER_01: And to be honest, I would even notice it in not necessarily in our friendship groups, but I'm very careful who I'd be I'd be f so open with you.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: Like so open, but you're very careful who you talk to about some things.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:00
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: Taboo.
23:01
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
23:02
SPEAKER_02: Because I would probably tell you anything.
23:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:04
SPEAKER_02: And I think culturally as well.
23:05
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we're pretty lucky in the UK that anything goes.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:08
SPEAKER_02: If you find the right community, but of course, there are cultures where it's you know people are really having to operate UAE, yeah, completely.
23:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, unreal.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: Um so this is obviously a little bit not left field, but from what we've been talking about scheduling sex if you aren't giving each other the time for it.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: Thoughts, yeah, loads to say on this.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: Um great, because someone asked me this.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: They're like, oh, could you pop this question in?
23:38
SPEAKER_00: I was like, Yeah, of course I can.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: Because they said they'd read something about it and so yeah, really interesting.
23:43
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so let's let's have another gentle reef ref reframe of let's let's swap out uh scheduling for prioritizing.
23:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:51
SPEAKER_02: Okay, okay.
23:52
SPEAKER_02: So I think when you are in the early throes of a relationship and your hormones and your whole sort of chemistry is is in a heightened state of arousal, of course, sex and desire is very spontaneous.
24:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:04
SPEAKER_02: Um, that is an unsustainable uh nervous system state.
24:09
SPEAKER_02: We can't stay like that, otherwise we get nothing done.
24:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:12
SPEAKER_02: So we we sort of biologically have to move into more of an attachment state where we're a little bit calmer, a little bit more regulated, and we're sort of less obsessive about whether the person's text us and we kind of get into a bit more of a routine.
24:26
SPEAKER_02: So sex and desire can then become responsive versus spontaneous.
24:31
SPEAKER_02: So I think prioritizing it, I think when we when we think of the word scheduling, it almost becomes like another thing that we have to do.
24:40
SPEAKER_02: It's something else on the to-do list.
24:42
SPEAKER_02: It's it becomes like well, you know, a lot of people will talk about duty sex, maintenance sex.
24:47
SPEAKER_02: More of a chore.
24:47
SPEAKER_02: More of a chore, something else to do.
24:49
SPEAKER_02: And I think with women particularly, sex can become the only thing that they can say no to.
24:54
SPEAKER_02: They're so overburdened by childcare, looking after parents, running the home, doing all the kind of emotional lifting and the kinkeeping and all of that kind of thing.
25:04
SPEAKER_02: Not to say that men don't do that, absolutely they do.
25:07
SPEAKER_02: Um and desire discrepancy isn't always um weighted in the way that you might expect, where women have low and men have high.
25:15
SPEAKER_02: That is not always the case.
25:17
SPEAKER_02: But I think for some women, sex is the only thing they can say no to, and so it becomes this kind they they can become a bit phobic about it.
25:25
SPEAKER_02: The other thing I would say about this is that if you want to have more sex, sex needs to be worth having.
25:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:32
SPEAKER_02: So this then brings into the whole the, you know, we then bring in um the issue of the orgasm gap, where straight males are having um an orgasm or ejaculating 95% of the time there's penetration, women only about a quarter of the time.
25:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:49
SPEAKER_02: I think that if you say what is sex, most people think it's penetration.
25:54
SPEAKER_02: And actually, we need to widen and expand that our repertoire of sex.
25:59
SPEAKER_02: And actually, looking at the gay community, the straight sorry, the gay male community is a fantastic way to look to explore this because they have the word side, which can be an adjective or a noun.
26:12
SPEAKER_02: So I'm a side or I like to side, which can mean I like everything else but penetration.
26:18
SPEAKER_04: Interesting.
26:20
SPEAKER_02: And I think that if you asked women, you know, whether they would be more interested in having sex if it didn't mean being penetrated every time, they would probably say yes.
26:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:30
SPEAKER_02: Or if they knew that they were going to have an orgasm every time.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of women can't orgasm just from sex alone, anyway.
26:37
SPEAKER_02: Well, that well, you can't orgasm vaginally, it has to be cl you know, your clitoris has to be stimulated.
26:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:45
SPEAKER_02: And that takes about 15 or 20 minutes to happen.
26:47
SPEAKER_02: It's exactly the same erectile tissue as the penis, it's just all on the inside.
26:52
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
26:53
SPEAKER_02: And it actually has more nerve endings, so it's much more sensitive.
26:56
SPEAKER_02: And it's the only organ in the body that is purely for sexual gratification.
26:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
27:01
SPEAKER_02: So we need to spend a lot of time looking after it, taking care of it, learning about it, learning what we like, what we don't like, and not being ashamed about that.
27:10
SPEAKER_02: I mean, but you know, given that the clitoris was only mapped in 2005, it's mental, isn't it?
27:15
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't even in Grey's Anatomy in 1945.
27:18
SPEAKER_02: We've got a long way to go.
27:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:20
SPEAKER_02: It's absolutely mental.
27:21
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
27:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:23
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, so so sex needs to be worth having.
27:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:27
SPEAKER_02: Um, often for people, it's easier to have sex than talk about it.
27:32
SPEAKER_02: Women generally are socialized to be very passive.
27:35
SPEAKER_02: I've I'm yet to meet um a woman that has had a really fantastic first formative sexual experience that they absolutely were like it was the best thing ever.
27:46
SPEAKER_02: There's very rarely power, pleasure, and consent involved with women's first sexual experiences.
27:54
SPEAKER_02: And if you take away power, pleasure, or consent, even if you just take one away, you're in murky territory.
27:59
SPEAKER_02: So I'm always saying to women, those three things, to men and women, those three things must always be there.
28:04
SPEAKER_02: So I think you know, it's about being brave enough to open up the conversation with your partner, yeah, um, and and not being a passive recipient, being an active agent in your own erotic life.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think like you say, it's almost having that confidence to say, this is what I like, this is what I don't.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: But I think sometimes when you spoke about I guess as you uh go through a relationship and initially it's kind of when I would say like you ask it like rabbits first together, they like say like high stimulus, and then that becomes more of an attachment.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: I think in as along that time you also you build trust with someone as well.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: So I suppose as you if anyone, like you say, with their first sexual experience with someone was like that's the amazing.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: I I would question how, because how can you emotionally trust that person?
28:56
SPEAKER_00: But also, how on earth do they know exactly what you like?
29:01
SPEAKER_00: So I think I don't know, in some ways, I think it it really should get better with time once you both understand each other more, but also when you trust that person more and you feel emotionally safe with that person too.
29:13
SPEAKER_02: Yes, and um the the sort of the the shadow side of that is that a couple can become one organism, they can merge, they can become enmeshed, there's no separateness.
29:29
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes that unknown is very erotic.
29:33
SPEAKER_02: And again, we think about affairs or one night stands, which can have a lot of erotic charge.
29:38
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, sometimes when we know each other so well, we sort of it our partners can become desexualized to us, and you could almost sort of start seeing them as a friend or a sibling, and that's really dangerous territory.
29:53
SPEAKER_02: So you want to be, and this is from the work of Esther Perel, who talked, you know, she's really, really fantastic at destigmatizing affairs because many people that engage in affairs, and and a lot of the work and couples that I see where there has been an affair that's taken place, the person that's had the affair is is or the person that's been betrayed is not always the victim of the affair.
30:15
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes if the if if somebody finds themselves in a sex-starved marriage and and the partner is saying, Well, I don't want to have sex with you, but I don't want you to have sex with anybody else, you know, our skin gets hungry, we crave connection, we we we we have to have somewhere for those those desiring thoughts to go.
30:33
SPEAKER_02: We all have an erotic landscape, you know, it's it has to go somewhere.
30:39
SPEAKER_02: So really important that, yes, you're right, for some people that emotional connection is vital in order to feel safe because you know orgasm and um pleasure is it it can only really take place when we're in a very calm, restful, parasympathetic state.
30:58
SPEAKER_02: Um, but we want to maintain some separateness, we want to see, as as Esther Perel says, we want to sort of see our partner through the eyes of a third.
31:08
SPEAKER_02: It's sometimes really um attractive to see our partner doing something that we've never seen them do before, even if we might have been married to them for say 10 years.
31:15
SPEAKER_02: They we suddenly see them doing something different, and we're like, oh, actually, he's quite hot.
31:19
SPEAKER_02: Out of the normal looks really good doing that, or you know, or oh, I've never seen my girlfriend on stage, or I've never seen my girlfriend sing in public, or and suddenly there's this whole revival of erotic charge that you're seeing somebody for the first time doing something that they've never you've never seen them do, and that creates a real you know, novelty, it's newness, it's separateness.
31:45
SPEAKER_02: It we we shouldn't be merged and enmeshed as one organism because then we can't we we're almost sort of too close to the flame to feel the heat.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: So for people that are in say a longer-term relationship who might be listening, or for couples that you see, for anyone who maybe doesn't sing and get off on stage, like what um what advice, and I appreciate it's gonna be different person to person, but what advice could you give someone?
32:10
SPEAKER_00: I guess to kind of I suppose people refer to it as like keeping this keeping the spark alive.
32:14
SPEAKER_00: Keeping the spark alive, yeah.
32:15
SPEAKER_02: Well, so as we talked about sort of prioritizing sex, um, I think if people are generally waiting for them to feel spontaneous, it they're gonna be waiting quite a long time because there's so much else going on.
32:26
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I'm I'm a I'm a big fan of date nights.
32:29
SPEAKER_02: I'm a big fan of um, and and I would say when you go on a date night, arrive separately, go somewhere new.
32:36
SPEAKER_02: Don't let don't be cleaning your teeth over the sink together and then getting in the car and talking about the kids' yeah extracurricular activities, yeah, and then suddenly expect when you get to the restaurant that you're gonna be feeling like a first aid.
32:49
SPEAKER_02: If you think about all the effort that you make in the early stages and how that changes and shifts when you're in a long-term relationship, we shave our legs, we get our nails done, we might get a new outfit, we guys might go and get a shave and a tidy up at the barber's, you know, you might sort of you know get a new aftershave.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: You know, we're doing all these things, we are planning sex, we're planning and preparing for sex.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: And suddenly when we're in long-term relationships, there's a bit of a like, oh god, no, couldn't possibly have to think about that.
33:20
SPEAKER_02: Well, why?
33:21
SPEAKER_02: You do that in the early stages.
33:23
SPEAKER_02: So you could create a date night where there's a real sort of like unknown.
33:27
SPEAKER_02: Don't let your partner see what outfit you're wearing, get something slightly different, you know, do things, have have sex in a different room.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: Like you it could be the same sex but somewhere different.
33:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, you just want to be sort of just trying to break out of those out of those normals.
33:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: And as part of my work that I do with couples, I've created um an the erotic intelligence program, which takes couples on a big, big, long journey all the way through.
33:54
SPEAKER_02: And one of those things is a is a work, is a worksheet called Yes, No, Maybe So.
33:59
SPEAKER_02: And it's a big long document, and it goes all the way from sort of uh I am happy for my partner to see me undress all the way through to s to this sort of extreme end of the BDSM and everything in between.
34:13
SPEAKER_02: And as a couple, you can go through what's a yes, what's a definite, what's a hard no, what's a maybe if the context was right, yeah, uh what's an I don't know yet, because you know, sex sex is very fluid, our erotic lives are very fluid, and so then what we would work on is sort of creating the context that might help us towards the maybes and the yeses, and then you compare your results to your partners, and it could be something like, Oh, I didn't know you would like to try that.
34:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would if the if I'd had a yeah, you know, if I'd done this, that, and the other to make me feel safe and calm and happy and sexy, then I'd be willing to do that.
34:54
SPEAKER_02: So we always want to start from a place of willingness.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: Can I just ask?
34:58
SPEAKER_01: We were just talking about spark, it's not sex-related but dating related.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: So I have this feeling, and we've spoken about it before.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: When you have butterflies before you meet someone, or you're you know, you're anxious.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: For me, it's not a good sign, right?
35:17
SPEAKER_01: And some people I think confuse that with spark.
35:20
SPEAKER_01: Would you agree, disagree?
35:22
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I would absolutely agree.
35:23
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I mean sometimes that could, you know, nerves, nerves and excitement, you know, feel the same in the body.
35:30
SPEAKER_02: Um, I think it's right, you know, that's that anticipation, it's that anticipatory effect, which can be very um erotic as well.
35:37
SPEAKER_02: We call that simmering, which is another nice thing that you can do with your partner if you can sort of send each other a a text or a a sext or just sort of, I really enjoyed that about last night, or this morning was amazing, you look so sexy, you know, I loved it when you did this.
35:51
SPEAKER_02: That creates this anticipatory effect.
35:54
SPEAKER_02: But I think what you're what you're maybe speaking to there is the people that mi that that confuse that sort of excitation with chemistry, and and I think sometimes it can be um a sensation in the body that historically we might remember of being um in in a particularly it could be unsafe and dangerous, yeah, and it could be an interpretation of that.
36:16
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, the body's sense we might misinterpret actually what the body's sensation is.
36:22
SPEAKER_02: So with with my clients, I've got sort of post-date questions which I ask them, you know, how not how do you feel about them, how do you feel around them?
36:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:31
SPEAKER_02: You know, did you feel drained?
36:32
SPEAKER_02: Did you feel you know lifted up at the end of it?
36:35
SPEAKER_02: You know, what were they asking you?
36:36
SPEAKER_02: Were they curious about you?
36:38
SPEAKER_02: Was you know, lots of questions.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: So I I think it's a big thing, and I've said to you before, um I pay big attention to it now, how I feel when I'm with someone.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: Yes, especially if I'm on a date or something.
36:51
SPEAKER_01: I prefer to feel calm and content.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: Yes, you should.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a big thing.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: And people go, oh, we should have butterflies all that.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, no, no.
37:01
SPEAKER_01: If I feel calm and content with someone, that's a win.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: Especially because uh in the past I've had big ups and downs and trauma bonds and the whole other side of things where you're wrapped up in the chaos.
37:11
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
37:12
SPEAKER_01: So it took me a long time to learn that that's not boring, that's actually really good.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, absolutely right.
37:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, your nervous system should be nice and calm.
37:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you and and because you want to be having rational thoughts as well.
37:26
SPEAKER_02: You want to be logical and thinking straight as well.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah, yeah.
37:31
SPEAKER_00: Can we read you a story that's been submitted?
37:34
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
37:34
SPEAKER_00: And get your take on it.
37:35
SPEAKER_00: Sure, yes.
37:36
SPEAKER_00: Would you like to read it or would you like me to read it?
37:38
SPEAKER_00: I can read it actually, because then I can see your reaction.
37:40
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
37:40
SPEAKER_00: Are you happy with that?
37:41
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
37:42
SPEAKER_00: So obviously, this is anonymous.
37:43
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, all we can tell you is that this is from a female.
37:46
SPEAKER_00: So that's all we have on our form is their gender, uh, and then they they write another story.
37:51
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
37:51
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so me and my boyfriend have been together for five or so years.
37:55
SPEAKER_00: We live together, we have a baby, and we have baby number two on the way.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: He's great apart from one thing.
38:03
SPEAKER_00: He makes me make him come every day.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: I will caveat this by saying the favour is not returned for me every day.
38:11
SPEAKER_00: I don't mind doing it from time to time, but every day when I'm tired, it feels quite relentless, but he insists.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: Is this normal?
38:20
SPEAKER_00: Whatever normal might mean.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: And what advice could you give me to improve the situation moving forwards?
38:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:27
SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, as I said before, power, pleasure, and consent, okay, and thinking of sex as everything, not just penetration.
38:37
SPEAKER_02: So we're talking about a sexual act.
38:39
SPEAKER_02: Um and I would I'm I'm hearing through that that she is not really, she's she's willing, but she's not wanting, yeah.
38:50
SPEAKER_02: Which is a big difference.
38:52
SPEAKER_02: Um, so she is consenting, but she's not getting any pleasure from it, and she's feeling it's one-sided, and she's also struggling to bring it up by the sounds of it, and to broach that subject, which as we were just talking to is not a good sign.
39:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:06
SPEAKER_02: You sh you know, you should always be able to say the you know, you can never say the wrong thing to the right person.
39:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:12
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
39:13
SPEAKER_02: So the fact that she's slightly nervous about it means that he may have maybe possibly unc unconsciously conditioned her to not bring up difficult things that he doesn't want to hear.
39:24
SPEAKER_02: Um, it's it's not good.
39:26
SPEAKER_02: That's that's problematic.
39:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm afraid.
39:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:30
SPEAKER_00: So as a as a non-sex therapist, if that was a friend telling me that, I would be like red flag immediately.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
39:39
SPEAKER_02: I'll just say I'll just say on that that there is um there is a kink, um, which is uh there's a there's a genre of porn as well around it called free use.
39:48
SPEAKER_02: So there's free use porn, there's free use kink, and there's an actual people have actual living arrangements whereby there is an agre there is a negotiated contract um where one is a dominant and one is a submissive, and the dominant can do whatever they want at any point.
40:05
SPEAKER_02: However, that is fully consented to, yeah, and the sub or the person that is the being on the receiving end of the free use can stop it at any point.
40:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
40:15
SPEAKER_02: And remembering that the sub is always in control.
40:18
SPEAKER_02: We think the DOM is, but actually the sub is in control.
40:22
SPEAKER_02: So, in that scenario, in a free use situation or in a master slave scenario, yeah, that's a totally different kettle of fish.
40:30
SPEAKER_02: This is abusive by the sounds of it.
40:33
SPEAKER_02: But I would obviously need to chat with them.
40:36
SPEAKER_02: And I'm not an agony aunt, let me just say I don't I don't give advice to clients, I try to work through the psychology of things, what's going on, but that does not sound healthy.
40:43
SPEAKER_02: And if I receive that as an inquiry, yeah, that would be the line that I would take in terms of the therapeutic process.
40:50
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: So can I just ask you?
40:52
SPEAKER_01: Because just on the topic of you said it was it free use.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I know a little bit around that just from like conversational stuff.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, what are your thoughts on CNC?
41:03
SPEAKER_01: Consent non-consent.
41:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:07
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, consensual non-consent, also formally known as rape fantasy or ravishment fantasies.
41:14
SPEAKER_02: Um, very common.
41:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:16
SPEAKER_02: Um, sometimes, not always, a way of working through trauma for the person to kind of gain some control over the scenario and reclaim um, you know, reintegrate different memories into something in association with the sexual um fantasy there.
41:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, so very, very common.
41:35
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, if we think about it, it's it's an overpowering, isn't it?
41:41
SPEAKER_02: So there's the power dynamics in there, there's the ravishment, if we think about the other alternative word for it, ravishment fantasy, it's that absolutely kind of unstoppable lust towards you.
41:53
SPEAKER_02: I mean, who doesn't want to be the object of desire and who doesn't want to be the object of desire with multiple people?
41:58
SPEAKER_02: So if we think about gangbangs and you know, group orgies and things like that.
42:02
SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, that that's that's what I've got to say on that.
42:06
SPEAKER_02: But again, heavily negotiated, heavily consented to, all agreed.
42:11
SPEAKER_02: Brilliant, crack on, enjoy the scene.
42:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, agree, and also very important the aftercare.
42:16
SPEAKER_02: So when we're thinking about BDSM, fetish and kink, aftercare is essential.
42:21
SPEAKER_02: Aftercare could look like I just need a cup of tea and a hug, yeah, I need to talk this through, I don't want to drive home, I'm not ready, you know, because we we have chemical changes in the brain, whether we are a sub or a dom.
42:34
SPEAKER_02: They're they're different states, but um, you know, for the sub it can be very kind of trancey, very trippy, very meditative, uh, very spacey.
42:45
SPEAKER_02: For the DOM, it's often a flow state.
42:47
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
42:48
SPEAKER_02: So they're heavily in control, but they're completely attuned to what's going on in the scene.
42:53
SPEAKER_02: It's really important to have aftercare.
42:55
SPEAKER_02: So with definitely with CNC, you want to be making sure that you're taken care of.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, and how do you protect your own mental health when you're absorbing everyone else's intimacy?
43:08
SPEAKER_01: Really good question.
43:09
SPEAKER_00: Especially when you touched on working with women who were rape victims or do the NHS work.
43:14
SPEAKER_00: That's I immediately I'm quite an empath, and I immediately went, oh, that feels heavy.
43:18
SPEAKER_00: I absolutely couldn't do your job.
43:20
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, how how do you then disassociate work versus home life and protect your own self?
43:27
SPEAKER_02: It's a really good question.
43:28
SPEAKER_02: And our own self-care is essential.
43:31
SPEAKER_02: Um, so we all have, you know, anybody that is accredited and registered with governing bodies and insured, um, we all have regular supervision.
43:40
SPEAKER_02: I actually have two different supervisors and I see them, you know, um uh once a week.
43:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:45
SPEAKER_02: So I and that's that for me is I'm going above and beyond.
43:50
SPEAKER_02: I don't need to be having that much actually, but I choose to because I need somewhere to share that with things that I've heard.
43:58
SPEAKER_02: It's quite It's it's it's pretty um odd about the things that tend to stay with you.
44:06
SPEAKER_02: I mean, there are certain clients that I will never forget, there are certain stories that I'll never forget.
44:12
SPEAKER_02: I'm a very visual person, so if somebody is telling me about something, I am transported, I've I'm picturing it because I want to be completely empathic and in their experience of it.
44:24
SPEAKER_02: Um, and sometimes somebody might tell you something utterly horrific, and you are able then to be like, no, yeah, sure, and you work through it, and it and it's not that it doesn't stay with you, but it might not affect affect you.
44:39
SPEAKER_02: And then somebody might come in and share an experience that they had as a little one, a little as as a little person, and they were utterly humiliated or ostracised or bullied about something, and you you get this kind of sense of that exclusion or that lonely, that utter loneliness and that terror, um, more of a sensation rather than a kind of visual of something.
45:10
SPEAKER_02: However, that's not to say that I don't remember everything that people tell me, and and you know, some things do stay with me.
45:16
SPEAKER_02: But to your point, I walk a lot.
45:19
SPEAKER_02: So I walk, I do qi gong every single morning.
45:23
SPEAKER_02: What's qi gong?
45:24
SPEAKER_02: Qi gong is a martial art, it's a sort of gentle meditative uh version of Tai Chi.
45:30
SPEAKER_02: Um so it's moving energy through the body, um, it's grounding, it's movement with synchronized breath.
45:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, I I do a lot of tapping.
45:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I tap every morning.
45:42
SPEAKER_02: I have cold exposure, so I shower cold and I do cold plunges and things like that.
45:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, I live with live with my partner who doesn't have anything to do with this world, and so at the end of a very long day, it it's not like I'm able to bring my work home with me.
46:01
SPEAKER_02: There has to be everything that's completely left at the door.
46:06
SPEAKER_02: And the first thing I will do when I get home is shower.
46:09
SPEAKER_02: So something very ritualistic for me about showering off the emotion.
46:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
46:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I feel instantly better.
46:16
SPEAKER_02: So I really, really take my my mask off, my makeup, and I have a cold shower and I feel brand new afterwards.
46:22
SPEAKER_02: Oh wow, that's great.
46:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so that that ritual, and actually, a a a tutor of mine a long time ago, she used to do this, she used to brush it off.
46:31
SPEAKER_02: She used to say, you know, come out of a session and brush it off.
46:34
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, shaking's good, hopping up and down, do all sorts of crazy things in therapy.
46:40
SPEAKER_00: Now, can we ask you a snog marry avoid?
46:43
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
46:43
SPEAKER_00: So we do this on every episode.
46:46
SPEAKER_02: I'm a little I'm probably a lot older than your main people that you have.
46:51
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if I'm my own.
46:52
SPEAKER_00: I think you're gonna enjoy the people I've chosen.
46:56
SPEAKER_02: I hope it's not like a TikTok or something.
46:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't know who's gonna be a little bit more than a lot of.
47:02
SPEAKER_00: We um we all like to interject on this.
47:04
SPEAKER_00: Producer Rich, are you around?
47:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
47:08
SPEAKER_00: So your three people are Gordon Ramsay, Idris Elba and Ryan Reynolds.
47:15
SPEAKER_00: Okay So who are you snogging?
47:17
SPEAKER_00: Who are you marrying, who are you avoiding?
47:20
SPEAKER_02: Oh snog Idris.
47:24
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, what a guy.
47:25
SPEAKER_02: Come on, there's no classification there.
47:27
SPEAKER_02: He's a hottie.
47:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
47:28
SPEAKER_02: I think I'd marry Gordon.
47:31
SPEAKER_02: I think I'd marry Gordon because I really love that sort of drive and that ambitious energy.
47:38
SPEAKER_02: Um that would be well it could be potentially disastrous with me at the same being the same houses.
47:44
SPEAKER_00: Two Taipei together.
47:45
SPEAKER_00: Power couple.
47:46
SPEAKER_02: Uh but yeah, I think he I think he seems a lovely family man.
47:49
SPEAKER_02: I think he seems like a devoted husband.
47:51
SPEAKER_02: As far as I'm aware, he seems like a good guy.
47:54
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, probably go for Gordon.
47:55
SPEAKER_02: And the other one was Ryan Ryan Reynolds.
47:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know much about him, so is I'm trying to think.
48:02
SPEAKER_00: Famous actor, married to Blake Lively, who's an idiot.
48:04
SPEAKER_00: Is he the Wrexham?
48:05
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
48:05
SPEAKER_00: Oh, this is Wrexham.
48:08
SPEAKER_00: Great documentary, yeah.
48:09
SPEAKER_00: He's lovely.
48:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I think I'll stick with Idris and uh Gordon.
48:12
SPEAKER_00: I like it.
48:13
SPEAKER_00: Liv, who are you going for?
48:14
SPEAKER_01: I'd do exactly the same because I'd Ryan Reynolds really annoys me.
48:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he really annoys me.
48:20
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
48:21
SPEAKER_03: Richie Mikey.
48:22
SPEAKER_03: This is a lot of pressure on me.
48:23
SPEAKER_03: Here we go, yeah.
48:23
SPEAKER_00: Right, so just as a reminder, you've got Gordon Ramsay, Idris Elba, Ryan Reynolds.
48:27
SPEAKER_03: Snog I think I'd snog Ryan Reynolds, to be honest.
48:32
SPEAKER_00: Would you?
48:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but I've seen him from the early days of before he got really famous.
48:36
SPEAKER_03: Um I think I'd marry Gordon.
48:39
SPEAKER_03: I'm never cooking again, am I?
48:41
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah.
48:42
SPEAKER_01: You don't snog now, do you?
48:44
SPEAKER_01: I think you're the king of Deliveroo.
48:47
SPEAKER_00: You're all shares.
48:49
SPEAKER_02: I'm the queen of the chopping board girl dinner.
48:52
unknown: Yeah.
48:52
SPEAKER_02: So that's a really good point.
48:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
48:54
SPEAKER_02: I just stand up and eat crackers and allow it things.
48:57
SPEAKER_02: Crackers and cheese.
48:59
SPEAKER_03: Which means I need to I have to avoid You're avoiding Idris.
49:03
SPEAKER_01: Oh nice.
49:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
49:05
SPEAKER_03: Only by only in this scenario.
49:06
SPEAKER_03: I'm thinking long term.
49:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean he finished, you look at it.
49:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I could swap them.
49:09
SPEAKER_03: I could swap them.
49:10
SPEAKER_00: I could snog him instead, but No, I think I'd go the same as you.
49:13
SPEAKER_00: I think I'd snog Ryan Reynolds, which would surprise people, but I'd marry Gordon, mainly for the cooking.
49:20
SPEAKER_00: And I'd avoid Idris.
49:21
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, Idris, you're a lovely man, but I think the other thing with Idris is a DJ, so he's probably got quite unsociable hours.
49:26
SPEAKER_02: And I like to be in bed by sort of nine.
49:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah other than I'm a real early.
49:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
49:31
SPEAKER_00: DJs are just getting going at that time.
49:34
SPEAKER_00: They're not even smarting, really.
49:34
SPEAKER_00: No, I was listening to your podcast the other day and they were talking about Ibitha, and um they were saying about no, I went once years ago, but I'm more of a I'm more of a day session kind of gal.
49:44
SPEAKER_00: I want a good night's sleep.
49:45
SPEAKER_00: I really value my sleep.
49:46
SPEAKER_00: Banging Beach Club.
49:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's yeah, that's way more my vibe.
49:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, okay, so to bring it home, yeah.
49:54
SPEAKER_00: We also play a game called This or That.
49:56
SPEAKER_00: Oh right.
49:56
SPEAKER_00: Basically, like would you rather?
49:58
SPEAKER_00: So we'll give you some scenarios and you've got to choose one or the other.
50:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
50:01
SPEAKER_00: Liv, do you want to kick this off?
50:03
SPEAKER_01: So we've got a date night at home or a date night out.
50:07
SPEAKER_01: Oh, a date night out.
50:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a change of scene.
50:09
SPEAKER_00: That doesn't surprise me because of what we were just talking about.
50:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: Uh would you rather know everything about your partner's past or nothing at all?
50:18
SPEAKER_02: I think nothing at all.
50:19
SPEAKER_02: Really?
50:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't I don't like it sort of bleeding in, really.
50:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
50:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm I'm pretty yeah.
50:24
SPEAKER_02: Clean it.
50:25
SPEAKER_02: Well, stuff is done.
50:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's a reason they're in the past, there's a reason they're in the past.
50:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
50:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
50:29
SPEAKER_01: Slow burn romance or love at first sight.
50:32
SPEAKER_02: Oh.
50:33
SPEAKER_02: So my my partner and I would were definitely love at first sight.
50:37
SPEAKER_02: It was the electric.
50:40
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, both of us knew.
50:41
SPEAKER_02: In fact, he proposed on the first date.
50:43
SPEAKER_00: Wow, I love that.
50:44
SPEAKER_00: That's a exclusive.
50:49
SPEAKER_00: So brilliant.
50:50
SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, I mean, we're we're not married, but um, and I I just laughed and he went, no, but seriously.
50:56
SPEAKER_02: Um, which was absolutely lovely.
50:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we both completely felt it and we've been inseparable ever since.
51:01
SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
51:01
SPEAKER_00: That's so nice.
51:02
SPEAKER_00: I always this is great.
51:03
SPEAKER_00: So I always say to people, my parents got engaged after a week of knowing each other.
51:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
51:07
SPEAKER_00: They'd be married for 35 years.
51:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to think about how old my brothers, 35 years, and people always find that absolutely bonkers, but oh they work though, they they work so well to know.
51:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think conversely, a long marriage is not always a badge of honour.
51:23
SPEAKER_02: No, sometimes somebody has to there has to be a death of a soul.
51:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
51:28
SPEAKER_02: Should have a I think a renewal option after seven years.
51:31
SPEAKER_00: Would you like to resubscribe?
51:33
SPEAKER_00: Yes, right.
51:37
SPEAKER_01: So would you rather your clients follow your advice perfectly or push back and challenge?
51:43
SPEAKER_01: Oh, push back and challenge.
51:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
51:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
51:45
SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
51:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you want them to have full agency.
51:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
51:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so would you rather have a date night planned to the minute or fully spontaneous?
51:56
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'm a complete control freak, so it's a bit planned.
52:01
SPEAKER_00: So everybody wasn't sure which way you were gonna go then.
52:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm a I'm a former chief of staff, so I have to know everything.
52:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
52:09
SPEAKER_02: Outfit, weather, what it's like underfoot, you know, everything.
52:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
52:13
SPEAKER_02: I like it.
52:14
SPEAKER_00: Um would you rather your ex uh become your therapist's next client or your therapist became your ex's next date?
52:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay, just say that again.
52:26
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
52:26
SPEAKER_00: Would I prefer my ex to be my therapist?
52:29
SPEAKER_00: Become your therapist's next client.
52:31
SPEAKER_00: Right.
52:32
SPEAKER_00: Or would you rather that your therapist dated your ex?
52:36
SPEAKER_00: Oh no, I'd like my ex to see my therapist.
52:40
SPEAKER_00: We've got something else in common.
52:43
SPEAKER_02: We always go to therapy for people that won't go to therapy.
52:46
SPEAKER_02: That's all I'll say.
52:50
SPEAKER_02: Jesus Christ.
52:51
SPEAKER_00: Um okay, would you rather be in a long distance relationship or live together too soon?
52:57
SPEAKER_02: Uh I've always done long distance actually, so I have no issues with it, but I'm living with my partner now and it's it's fine.
53:02
SPEAKER_02: So I think it's just the right person.
53:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
53:04
SPEAKER_02: And also different ages, you know, different stages, ages.
53:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
53:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, would you rather someone have brutal honesty in a relationship or be comfortable with white lies?
53:17
SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm not an advocate for lying, of course.
53:20
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think there's always you've always got to sort of think about what's the intention of disclosing the truth.
53:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:29
SPEAKER_02: So if it's to relieve and divest you of something and it's going to cause irreparable damage to the other person, then I would maybe sort of say, you know, can you manage to keep it to yourself?
53:41
SPEAKER_01: That's my stance as well.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: I think what are you trying to make from it?
53:45
SPEAKER_01: You trying to leave your own guilt.
53:47
SPEAKER_01: If you are, don't do it.
53:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:49
SPEAKER_00: It can be really disastrous.
53:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's somewhere between the two.
53:51
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, this is a would you rather, but I think um for me, I would always rather take honesty over lies.
54:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:02
SPEAKER_02: I think you need to, I think you I think that would be what most people would say.
54:05
SPEAKER_02: You want to be fully consenting about what they're who they're with, yeah and what's going on.
54:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
54:09
SPEAKER_00: Okay, and then last but not least, passion that fades or stability that never excites.
54:21
SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, obviously, I'd be doing myself an injustice if I said that passion fades in every situation.
54:27
SPEAKER_04: I'm very good at getting passion back.
54:30
SPEAKER_02: Um, or stability that doesn't excite.
54:32
SPEAKER_02: That never excites.
54:34
SPEAKER_02: Well, that's just a friend, isn't it?
54:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
54:36
SPEAKER_02: That's just companionate love, and there's no there's no lust or erotic there.
54:40
SPEAKER_02: No, we all deserve a vibrant sex life.
54:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
54:43
SPEAKER_02: Love it.
54:44
SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
54:44
SPEAKER_00: You've been so great.
54:45
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
54:46
SPEAKER_00: You're so welcome.
54:48
SPEAKER_00: It's an absolute pleasure.
54:49
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I've learned so much.
54:52
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, yeah, to be fair.
54:53
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I knew a few bits, but that's gonna be quite new for you.
54:57
SPEAKER_00: But I think even just your language around being open, nothing is weird, and just unusual to what you are aware of.
55:09
SPEAKER_01: And I think if people are more open-minded, get curious, yes, yeah, compassionate, drop the judgment and get curious.
55:17
SPEAKER_01: It's one thing my therapist says to me get curious.
55:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:20
SPEAKER_01: Curious.
55:20
SPEAKER_01: Why is it like that?
55:21
SPEAKER_00: And look, if you're looking for a bit of extra cash, clearly people are into feet pictures, so you know.
55:26
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
55:27
SPEAKER_00: Capitalised.
55:28
SPEAKER_00: Now we've got one, it's all in the brain.
55:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, starts in the brain.
55:32
SPEAKER_01: So Lulu, obviously, if they want, if people want to find you, they you've got Stowe as your go-to.
55:39
SPEAKER_01: Um your social media handle is at Cotsworld Sex Therapy.
55:44
SPEAKER_02: At Cotword.
55:45
SPEAKER_02: Um and you can read all of my um I I'm I'm not um doing constant reels.
55:50
SPEAKER_02: I just simply don't have the time.
55:52
SPEAKER_02: But I I do put all of my articles that I contribute on there.
55:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
55:56
SPEAKER_02: Um podcasts, radio, anything that anything there.
55:59
SPEAKER_02: Um, any upcoming retreats.
56:00
SPEAKER_02: I'm doing retreats now for as a sort of a one-to-many model rather than one-to-one or one-to-couples.
56:06
SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, you can find our information on there.
56:09
SPEAKER_02: And then my website is www.lsychotherapy.com.
56:15
SPEAKER_02: Okay, great.
56:16
SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
56:17
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
56:17
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
56:18
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for coming on our campus.
56:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, until next Friday, stay toxic.