Latest / Pharmacy Podcast Network / Psilocybin in Practice: Safe, Sacred, and Sincere with Pam Conboy and Leah Linder | Holistic Pharmacy Podcast

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Psilocybin in Practice: Safe, Sacred, and Sincere with Pam Conboy and Leah Linder | Holistic Pharmacy Podcast · Pharmacy Podcast Network

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: You are listening to the Pharmacy Podcast Network.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the Holistic Pharmacy Podcast. I'm your host,
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: Marina books of and I'm a functional medicine pharmacist in
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: New York. I'm also a clinical herbalist and an integrative
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: health coach specializing in mindfulness and empowerment. I'm on a
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: mission to transform the way we approach healthcare by bridging
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: the wisdom of traditional medicine with modern practice, and in
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: this podcast, I will be highlighting guests who do just that.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: I'm constantly inspired by them and I know you will
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: be as well.
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: Hi, and welcome back to another episode of the Holistic
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: Pharmacy Podcast.
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: I have with me two amazing guests.
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: We have Leah Linder and we have Pam Conboy and
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: they have a background that is very interesting.
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: So let me just introduce you quickly.
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: Pam has a background in biology and she was trained
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: as a clinical laboratorian and is currently a doctoral student
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: in naturopathic medicine.
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: She is ann.
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: Certified health coach, me too trained psychedelic facilitator, medical marketing
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: and business development entrepreneur, and ordained minister. And Leah has
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: a background in biochemistry and emergency medicine. And she's a
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: naturopathic physician trained in psychedelic assisted therapy with deep expertise
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: in natural supplement formulation and manufacture. She's a master gardener,
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: experienced educator, and ordained minister.
• 1:54
  Speaker 4: So welcome both Leah and Pam.
• 1:57
  Speaker 5: Thank you for having us.
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: So let's get started with our conversation today about what
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: got you both into this path and this journey with
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: psychedelic and spiritual health.
• 2:10
  Speaker 5: Yeah. Absolutely, So I had first started utilizing psychedelics with
• 2:17
  Speaker 5: some patients, and like you said, my background is as
• 2:20
  Speaker 5: a nature bathic physician, and so we had all of
• 2:24
  Speaker 5: the foundational diet, lifestyle, holistic practices on board. But I
• 2:29
  Speaker 5: had in one week three patients that came up to
• 2:32
  Speaker 5: me and they're like, Oh, I listened to this podcast,
• 2:34
  Speaker 5: or I watched this documentary or I read this book,
• 2:37
  Speaker 5: and I really want to try microdosing. And you know,
• 2:40
  Speaker 5: at that point, I was kind of more ignorant to
• 2:44
  Speaker 5: the science behind, you know, utilizing psilocybin as medicine, and
• 2:50
  Speaker 5: so I was like, okay, let me dive into the
• 2:52
  Speaker 5: research and get back to you. And the research was there.
• 2:57
  Speaker 5: There's heaps of you know, studies on and the benefits
• 3:01
  Speaker 5: for depression and anxiety and PTSD and other mental health conditions,
• 3:06
  Speaker 5: but even more recently on sleep and diabetes and fibromyalgia
• 3:11
  Speaker 5: and chronic pain. I mean, there's just so much out there.
• 3:14
  Speaker 5: And I was having lunch with Pam and I was like,
• 3:17
  Speaker 5: you know, I had these patients that are you know,
• 3:20
  Speaker 5: microdosing and like incredible catalysts to their overall well being, change,
• 3:26
  Speaker 5: healthier relationships with alcohol, with their partners, having more productivity
• 3:33
  Speaker 5: at work, feeling more aligned with their own spiritual path.
• 3:37
  Speaker 5: And I was, you know, like I said, having lunch
• 3:40
  Speaker 5: with Pam, and I was like, we got to get
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: this in the water. It feels like everybody could benefit
• 3:45
  Speaker 5: from this. And Pam's light bulbs went off, So I'll
• 3:48
  Speaker 5: let her finish that part of the story.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: So Jess, maybe what a bit of information that's useful
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: to the conversation. As Leah and I work together at
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: a professional nutritional supplement company together, so I was more
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: on the marketing side. Lea started at tech support and
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: then formulation, so we had a lot of the background
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: about how nutritional supplements should be both developed, tested, package
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: The whole nine yards so that was nice having in
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: the back pocket. So listening to Lea's stories, I'm thinking, Wow,
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: that's amazing. I didn't even realize there was this big
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: renaissance of psychedelic medicine. I mean, in twenty eighteen and nineteen,
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: FDA itself sort of called psilocybin Breakthrough Therapy for Depression
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: and trauma, and it really opened the doors to more
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: and more research.
• 4:41
  Speaker 6: Last fifteen years has been super busy.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: Most of the prestigious academic institutions in the US have
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: a psychedelic lab, so it's out there. Wow, and there's
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: a lot out there. So I was aware that there
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: were ayahuasca churches.
• 5:00
  Speaker 6: And I'm thinking, Okay.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: They're operating with mp agens clearly Class one substances, but
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: they're doing it so safely, they're above board. So it
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: turns out that in nineteen ninety three, the federal government
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: passed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act specifically for Indigenous people
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: that we're working with nthogens and sincere spiritual practice. So
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: that's the key sincere spiritual practice. So the legislation is federal,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: It does not specify any specific practice, just that it
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: is a sincere spiritual one. Nor does it specify what
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: ante agen. It just kind of opens the door to
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: protect the people that have been using these medicines for hundreds.
• 5:45
  Speaker 6: And thousands of years.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: So that's how you do it. There's actually a board
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: of attorneys that specialize in psychedelic medicine. So I set
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: off to build a church. We are at five OHO
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: one three c ftterally recognized spiritual organization. We behave like
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: a church. We take this very seriously because.
• 6:07
  Speaker 6: That's our protection.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: So we do you know, three complementary or free courses
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: if you will.
• 6:16
  Speaker 6: Each month.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: One's more didactic science and sermon and that's a virtual class.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: We have a more experiential class what we call CETI
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: sensation and that is live here in Reno. And then
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: we have a few virtual integration circles actually per month.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: One is for and we can talk about this later,
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: it's super interesting. One is more for cognitive decline, and
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: the other is a more generalized live integration circle. So
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: we really do take it seriously. We don't engage in commerce,
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: but we do have a few entheogen entogenic offerings, so
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: we have microdosing and that is all based on Leah's formulations.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: What she had been doing with her patients and applied
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: them to actual products, and we can go into that,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: but that's a picture of the micro dos and we
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: have three different flavors, so to speak. And then we
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: do macrodose ceremonies primarily here in Reno right now, but
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: we're starting to take this on the road because of
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: the federal protection that we operate under, and that's a
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: new experience for us. We've only been around for a
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: year now, but the demand is there. It makes a
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: startlingly impressive difference in people's lives and it's really durable.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: So we could go down like seven alleys right from there.
• 7:43
  Speaker 6: I'll let you lead us.
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Pam, it's so clear that you have a background
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: in marketing because the way you laid everything out in
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: all the pieces and showed us the product and all
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: the different parts there was very.
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: Nice and organized.
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I have a lot of questions coming into
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: this conversation.
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: Well, let's start with.
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: You mentioned and also Leah mentioned that there's a demand,
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: right and.
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: Why is that right? A lot of people who listen
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: to my.
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: Show are in healthcare or some kind of health practitioners
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: and they're looking for integrating a more holistic approach, So
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: how does this fit into a picture of holistic health.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: That's that's exactly it. That's exactly it. It's a very
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: safe option.
• 8:31
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a safe option that has a really strong
• 8:33
  Speaker 5: safety profile. So you know, there's so many mine altering
• 8:37
  Speaker 5: substances out there, including nicotine and alcohol, other you know,
• 8:42
  Speaker 5: entheogenic plants like lsd M, DMA, but psilocybin has the
• 8:46
  Speaker 5: strongest safety profile and so there is very low interaction
• 8:51
  Speaker 5: with other medications, other nutraceuticals. So from that perspective, it's
• 8:56
  Speaker 5: a really great option for people that are wanting to,
• 8:59
  Speaker 5: you know, support their patients in participating in this. And
• 9:03
  Speaker 5: the other thing is that it has a lot of
• 9:06
  Speaker 5: durable changes from a neurochemical perspective. In the brain, so
• 9:12
  Speaker 5: psilocybin is converted into silicon in the body, which acts
• 9:17
  Speaker 5: as an agonist to the five H two A serotonin
• 9:20
  Speaker 5: receptors and those are primary located in the prefrontal cortex,
• 9:24
  Speaker 5: and this activation leads to altered perception, mood, cognition, and
• 9:30
  Speaker 5: can contribute to that deep introspective experience even out of microdose. Secondly,
• 9:37
  Speaker 5: it has an incredible ability to increase synaptic plasticity. So
• 9:42
  Speaker 5: when psilocybin promotes that growth of dendritic spines and increases
• 9:48
  Speaker 5: the formation of new synaptic connections, it really leads to
• 9:52
  Speaker 5: these long term, meaningful changes. It helps people rewire their
• 9:56
  Speaker 5: brains so that they don't have to feel stuck. You know,
• 10:00
  Speaker 5: when I speak with larger groups too, I you know,
• 10:03
  Speaker 5: have everybody raise their hand if they've never experienced trauma before,
• 10:06
  Speaker 5: and nobody ever can. Right, being human can be a
• 10:10
  Speaker 5: very challenging goal to accomplish, so you know, encouraging that
• 10:17
  Speaker 5: new wiring, that new formation can be really valuable. And
• 10:22
  Speaker 5: then it also, you know, alters what's called the default
• 10:25
  Speaker 5: mode network, and the default mode network is the regions
• 10:28
  Speaker 5: in the brain. They're associated with self referential thinking or
• 10:32
  Speaker 5: our ego, and psilocybin reduces the default mode network, so
• 10:36
  Speaker 5: there's a sense of ego disillusionment, and there's more of
• 10:40
  Speaker 5: an interconnectedness with the greater collective and a loss of
• 10:44
  Speaker 5: boundaries between the self and the external world, so really
• 10:48
  Speaker 5: helping people feel like they are part of the greater collective.
• 10:51
  Speaker 5: It also releases dopamine and oxytocin, so helping without emotional processing,
• 10:58
  Speaker 5: helping with ad diction and then also influences alpha brain
• 11:03
  Speaker 5: waves and this is especially in the prefrontal cortex. But
• 11:07
  Speaker 5: it's linked to the breakdown of normal cognitive boundaries, allowing
• 11:12
  Speaker 5: for like novel perception, novel connectedness, new ideas, new productivity.
• 11:18
  Speaker 5: So there, it really is the flavor in the background.
• 11:24
  Speaker 5: So yes, we have to have you know, we can't
• 11:27
  Speaker 5: out supplement a bad diet and lack of exercise and
• 11:31
  Speaker 5: lack of connection. But also, you know, every ailment in
• 11:34
  Speaker 5: the body has an emotional aspect to it, and so
• 11:38
  Speaker 5: utilizing psilocybin can be an incredible catalyst for supporting people
• 11:43
  Speaker 5: with that mental emotional connection to what else is going
• 11:47
  Speaker 5: on in their body.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: So and one of the other things, Marina is, as
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: you probably very well know, do youse of as SRIS
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: and other sort of psychiatric medicines is just off the charts.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: We're in a deep dives as far as the country,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: maybe worldwide, and these folks are getting parked on these
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: medications for decades. It's kind of criminal, you know, and
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: a lot of them are looking to get off of
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: that crutch or it just stopped working altogether.
• 12:17
  Speaker 6: We also have a lot of cognitive decline.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: We had the great pleasure of being introduced to a
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: neurologist here in our area early on when we're investigating
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: how to get this done. And he worked at Johns
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: Hopkins so was very familiar with psychedelic medicines and he
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: deals with a lot of early Alzheimer's cognitive decline, et cetera.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: And you know, some of the medications that are available
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: are just not the people aren't qualified to take it
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: or they don't want to take the risk, and psiloicypin
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: is of really really safe and interesting choice for these patients.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: And I would say at this point we have probably
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: thirty of his patients that are using are microdosing to
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: really really strong outcomes as far as mood elevation, reducing
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: the tension in the house. The spouseism caregivers love the
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: shift that his patients are getting just from the support
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: of psilocybin.
• 13:18
  Speaker 6: So there are a lot of ills in.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: Our society I think that are not being addressed very well,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: and there's more and more and more research that it's
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: just all over the place. Every medical conference that I've
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: been to in the last two years has a psychedelic track,
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: and we're going to be speaking at the Integrative Medicine
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: for Mental Health conference this September. There's a lot of
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: interest amongst folk, just regular people as well as healthcare
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: practitioners and therapists.
• 13:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and even next month in May. Well, yeah, so
• 13:57
  Speaker 5: I don't know, and this is going to air, but
• 14:00
  Speaker 5: I'm also speaking at the Institute for Functional Medicine annual
• 14:04
  Speaker 5: conference as well on a panel about psychedelics, and so, yeah,
• 14:09
  Speaker 5: there's practitioners that are starting to come up to speed
• 14:14
  Speaker 5: with how this can be a valuable aspect to supporting
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: their patients.
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely.
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: I mean, as a pharmacist, I am acutely aware of
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: how many SSRIs snrized and all kinds of antidepressants are
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: prescribed on a daily basis to people, and how it's
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: not really getting to the root causes of their mental
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: well being at all, and it's just getting them to
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: alter the brain chemicals that they are producing and to
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: have higher levels of certain ones of them. But then
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: you get down regulation and you have to keep increasing
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: the dose, and then there's tolerance, and then there's side
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: effects that that's doing inside your body, and eventually, if
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: you do want to discontinue that, it's going to be
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: a long process because there's going to be some withdrawal
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: effects there, and so I think that we definitely need
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: more solutions for people's mental health and why. Right, getting
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: to that question of why are people suffering with mental health?
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: I don't think it's just a matter of diagnosis and
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: how we're getting better at diagnosing. And I also don't
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: think it's our fault that, you know, we have an
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: imbalance of brain chemicals going on, and that there's something
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: wrong with us and we need to just upregulate certain ones.
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: I don't think that's the answer, you know.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: I think there's a reason why everybody collectively is feeling
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: so much heaviness and not feeling like everything is really
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: as it should be in our environment. And I think
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: this is something that you were speaking to, right, if
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: you mentioned earlier, Leiah, that everybody should really have this
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: in their water supply.
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: I've heard doctors say, oh, let's put statins in everybody's
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: water supply. You know, I think, no, please don't do that.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: You know, let's fix what is making us sick in
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: the environment in the first place, and then this psilocybin
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: can't be.
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: Actually part of the solution.
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: And I know there's some history around when historically we
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: started using this medicine and how it may have contributed
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: to our development into our thinking species and into our
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: thinking brains of the Homo sapien sapiens.
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: Right, So I'd love for you to speak Pam like clinically.
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: Right, what got you to I'm sorry, Leah, actually what
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: got you to think? Okay, you know what, I need
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: to really start experimenting and adding something else to my
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: patients because they really need this keen, missing element.
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: You know, I have to give reverence to my patients.
• 16:49
  Speaker 5: They were the ones that kind of ignited this aspect
• 16:54
  Speaker 5: of you know, wanting to do it. So, you know,
• 16:57
  Speaker 5: I've seen the stone ape theory, and you know I
• 17:02
  Speaker 5: have a deep reverence for mushrooms and my celia because
• 17:06
  Speaker 5: they are the largest organism on the planet and that
• 17:11
  Speaker 5: coevolution I think is so valuable to witness is that
• 17:15
  Speaker 5: you know, we have evolved with these beautiful fungi and
• 17:19
  Speaker 5: they have helped with our growth and development, and they
• 17:22
  Speaker 5: have so much wisdom to them.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 17:24
  Speaker 5: They're the ones that connect with the trees and the
• 17:28
  Speaker 5: birds and the songs and everything to you know, create
• 17:31
  Speaker 5: this greater network that looks very much like our neural networks.
• 17:35
  Speaker 5: And so with reverence to my patients of kind of
• 17:38
  Speaker 5: activating that, it was so beautiful, and the more that
• 17:43
  Speaker 5: I had more patients engaging with it, the more that
• 17:46
  Speaker 5: I was like, oh my goodness, this is amazing, because,
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: like you were saying, people get parked on medicines, pharmaceutical
• 17:53
  Speaker 5: medicines for decades, and it's, like you said, not addressing
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: the root cause. And the reason why I think that
• 17:59
  Speaker 5: this real medicine is that the more you use it,
• 18:02
  Speaker 5: the less you need to achieve the same benefits. Right,
• 18:06
  Speaker 5: and sometimes it's one and done.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 18:08
  Speaker 5: People can suffer with depression, maybe their whole life, lots
• 18:12
  Speaker 5: of trauma, and we have lots of really great cases
• 18:14
  Speaker 5: that I'm sure we can talk about their whole life
• 18:17
  Speaker 5: and go through one experience and come out of it
• 18:21
  Speaker 5: a totally different being. Right, they can really finally put
• 18:26
  Speaker 5: down that trauma, put down that baggage. It doesn't mean
• 18:30
  Speaker 5: that it goes away. You just get a different ability
• 18:33
  Speaker 5: to look at it, like a different viewpoint to look
• 18:36
  Speaker 5: at it. And it's awe inspiring. Truly. It's the most
• 18:41
  Speaker 5: profound work that I've ever done in my life. And
• 18:45
  Speaker 5: I've spent a lot of time in medicine, and again
• 18:49
  Speaker 5: I love natural medicine. I love root cause medicine. And
• 18:52
  Speaker 5: this was one thing that wasn't being addressed by natural
• 18:56
  Speaker 5: health or by you know, conventional medicine traditionally. Is that
• 19:01
  Speaker 5: mental health is something that again some people talk therapy
• 19:05
  Speaker 5: works really well, the MDR works really well. Sometimes pharmaceuticals
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: are needed to kind of you know, wrench people out
• 19:13
  Speaker 5: of the ditch, but really getting at that root cause
• 19:17
  Speaker 5: and supporting people's wellness for the long term is the
• 19:22
  Speaker 5: most rewarding part of it.
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: And how would you tell somebody who might be a
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: clinician or a health practitioner that would be interested in
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: researching this or even trying this for their patients perhaps,
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: like where does one get started and how does one
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: do it safely?
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So, as I mentioned, we worked in the nutritional
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: supplement space, so we know where to source organic materials,
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: where you know where to do third party testing. We
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: actually the microdosing is in capsules and we have that
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: done that This was the universe giving us the go
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: ahead at an FDA certified facility, a small contract manufacturer,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: which is an astonishing miracle, So it's the highest quality
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: that you're going to get. We know what quality looks
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: like in this space, so the safety is there. The
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: way this sort of operates is that anyone that's interested
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: in working with psilocybin with us needs to be a
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: member of the Church of seta seminary. This costs nothing.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: It's just part of the protection mechanism, so we can
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: all say that we're doing this in sincere spiritual practice.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: That's what we go back to the RFI legislation.
• 20:43
  Speaker 6: So when we were.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: First starting this whole enterprise, there's always a question of
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: how how do you market it? How do you do
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: the outreach. You want to be responsible, but also get
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: the information to the people that could really benefit and
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: try to avoid the people that are looking to buy
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: a bag of drugs because that's not what we do.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: So we've been really working grassroots, you know, started local
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: and are kind of spreading out. As I mentioned, I've
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: been to a handful of medical conferences in the last
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: two years and there's there's a deep interest and once
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: we get into the conversation, even if I'm there for
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: a different reason, you know, I have mushrooms on the
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: back of my phone, so people say, oh, that's cool, Oh,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: let me tell you the story about the mushrooms. So actually,
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: this year, because we've had so much interest, we are
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: planning to, if there's enough demand, to offer ceremonies ahead
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: of and to follow some key integrative conferences. We're not
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: associated with the conferences. It's just you know, out of convenience.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: If the practitioner is going to be there in that area,
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: we're going to have this available.
• 21:56
  Speaker 6: It's just a matter of.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: How we reach out to the attending practitioners because the
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: conferences themselves are not going to really promote a class.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: You know, let's schedule one substance. But we are going
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: to be doing that in San Diego, both ahead of
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: and to follow IFM, the Functional Medicine in San Diego
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: go again in September, ahead of and to follow IMMH
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: that's the Integrated Medicine for Mental Health conference, and then
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: the Naturopathic Physicians Association in Palm Springs and that's in July.
• 22:36
  Speaker 5: So yeah, first.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: Step if you're interested is to take a look at
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: our website. On the front end of our website, we
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: don't speak to PSILOSIGBNMIN specifically.
• 22:45
  Speaker 6: Again, that's kind.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Of walking the line where we don't want to attract
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: the wrong attention. But you just become a member completely free.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: It'll take a minute. Then you get credentials to get
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: to the back end of the website where there's a
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: lot of research, our videos recommended, reading information about our pairings,
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: and then you can reach out happy to have a
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: conversation one or both of us at any time.
• 23:13
  Speaker 6: Yeah, patient membership.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: We get a lot of referrals from practitioners once they
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: have some comfort in what we're doing and the quality
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: and the process that we take for both micro and
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: macrodos ceremonies.
• 23:27
  Speaker 6: So we are growing.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: Steadily, but cautiously because we just want to make sure
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: the information gets out properly.
• 23:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah. Absolutely, And just to add on to that, there
• 23:39
  Speaker 5: is a very strong renaissance of psychedelic medicine and so
• 23:43
  Speaker 5: MAPS are the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. They have
• 23:49
  Speaker 5: a wonderful training program for facilitators, but also a library
• 23:54
  Speaker 5: of other clinical studies protocols, integration resources FLUENCE is another
• 23:59
  Speaker 5: one that I got trained with, and so this they
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: offer continuing education for practitioners specifically and also certification programs
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: for mental health professionals in Psychedelic Integration and Therapy. CIIS
• 24:14
  Speaker 5: are the California Institute for Integral Studies. They also have
• 24:18
  Speaker 5: a really great program and certificate for psychedelic assisted therapies
• 24:22
  Speaker 5: and other research, and that's more designed for licensed professionals,
• 24:27
  Speaker 5: so therapists, doctors, clergy, those types. There's lots of them
• 24:31
  Speaker 5: out there, but I think that those from a vetting
• 24:34
  Speaker 5: perspective can be the most valuable and the most commonly recognized.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: And just for a general resource, honestly, if people want
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: to dig into where the science is right now. Spiritpharmacist
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: dot com. He's fantastic that he's focused his whole career
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: at this point on the therapeutic value of psychedelic medicines.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: So just still aside, but it's that's a very rich
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: website of information.
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: He's wonderful. Ben Malcolm is his name.
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I've heard about him from several sources. Since he's
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: a fellow pharmacist. I have to have him on some
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: time too, so this gives me a chance to reach
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: out to him.
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: He's amazing and a great just great depth of information
• 25:26
  Speaker 5: and he's just the kind of soul so I would
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: recommend Yeah, thank.
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: You so much for sharing all those resources. And this
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: actually reminds me of how Pam and I met at
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: the Integrated Healthcare Symposium back in.
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: February of this year and we or was.
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: It February, maybe it was January, but I saw the
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: mushroom case and you know, I asked about it, and
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: then that's how we connected, and I checked out your
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: beautiful website and I invited you to come on this podcast.
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: So for people listening out there and several different times
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: of ways to work with the mushrooms and with the psilocybin,
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: could you talk a little bit about how they all
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: differ with the microdosing or the journeys or the clinical settings,
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: like what's each indicated for, and a little bit about
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: how each looks like.
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so microdosing is a whisper in the background, and
• 26:26
  Speaker 5: it's a really great introduction for a lot of people,
• 26:29
  Speaker 5: especially if they have some apprehension around participating in psilocybin,
• 26:35
  Speaker 5: because you're not going to get any hallucinogenic effects. These
• 26:38
  Speaker 5: are sub perceptual doses, so this can be an opportunity
• 26:43
  Speaker 5: to you know, gain some trust in the medicine, but
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: also you know, unlike the fuller doses of a psychedelic experience,
• 26:53
  Speaker 5: meaning a macro dose, microdosing aims for those subtle changes
• 26:58
  Speaker 5: and subtle alterations and perception and consciousness. Now, that can
• 27:03
  Speaker 5: be really great for a lot of people, especially even
• 27:07
  Speaker 5: healthcare providers, you know, or the busy moms or the
• 27:11
  Speaker 5: you know, busy executives and whatnot, just to like utilize
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: it as a calming force, more creativity, more alignment with
• 27:21
  Speaker 5: you know, who they are as an individual. And then
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: also in macro dosing, these are much stronger doses. So
• 27:30
  Speaker 5: microdosing is generally between like point one and zero point
• 27:34
  Speaker 5: five milligrams.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: Macro dosing is that's a whole much rooms, just to
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: be clear, because sometimes you'll see research that are the
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: small molecule.
• 27:45
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so whole mushrooms, thank you, Pam. And then macro
• 27:49
  Speaker 5: dosing is generally between like three and seven grams in there.
• 27:55
  Speaker 5: And these are much more associated for people that need
• 27:58
  Speaker 5: a stronger shakeup, right, the people that have been stuck
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: for a really long time, really want to shift their perception.
• 28:06
  Speaker 5: It's kind of like that big catalyst where you kind
• 28:08
  Speaker 5: of get a little rocket to your new self. So
• 28:13
  Speaker 5: those are kind of the differentiations between the microdose and
• 28:17
  Speaker 5: then the macro dose and then our is oh good.
• 28:21
  Speaker 5: And then as far as like a clinical setting, you know,
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: there's different ways to participate in this. We like to
• 28:29
  Speaker 5: what we like to call more free range journeying. And
• 28:34
  Speaker 5: then there's also like the clinical setting with the imask
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: and the you know, earphones on board. Now that is
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: much more associated with clinical research. And like Pam was saying,
• 28:44
  Speaker 5: those are small molecules and not whole mushrooms. And the
• 28:48
  Speaker 5: reason why they do that is because then there's a
• 28:54
  Speaker 5: there's a clinical from like building a research study, you
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: have to know exactly what you're taking, you have to
• 29:02
  Speaker 5: know what does, you have to have the profile of
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: the person in front of you. But we utilize whole
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: mushrooms because there's so many other wonderful benefits that come
• 29:11
  Speaker 5: with whole mushrooms. There's the beta glue cans, the other
• 29:14
  Speaker 5: terpenes that are in there that can really help support
• 29:17
  Speaker 5: the gut brain access, the gut liver access, and support
• 29:23
  Speaker 5: people in that regard. So there's a reason why people
• 29:25
  Speaker 5: do the clinical research setting, but we find so much
• 29:29
  Speaker 5: more benefit with the whole mushroom.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: And you know, the folks come to us in a
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: few different pathways. A lot of people are definitely interested
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: in what this natural mushroom can do and what's all
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: this talk.
• 29:44
  Speaker 6: About, etc.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: So you have folks that are very trepidacious and might
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: start with microdosing, so they want to get familiar with
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: how they feel with the mushrooms inside them, you know,
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: get some comfort with the use of them, and then
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: might move on to a more macro dose experience. There
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: are others that have been stuck, especially folks that have
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: dealt with trauma, as Leah was mentioning, that really really
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: could benefit from a much bigger shakeup, and then they'll
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: use micro dosing as part of their ongoing integration practice.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: So although we try to help guide people based on
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: what they are describing, it's really up.
• 30:34
  Speaker 6: To them, up to them and the mushrooms.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: And this is the same thing when people will say, Okay,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: if I do this macro dose, how often do I
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: have to do it? Well, I don't know. You'll tell
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: me you may never have to do it again. Some
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: people do on a quarterly kind of clean out right,
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: Folks that have a lot of entrenched trauma. There's a
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: lot of layers to kind of work through, so you
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: know you'll have a big blowout, kind of integrate all
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: of that change, and maybe six months later you're up
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: for it again. It really varies on the individuals, their
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: comfort level, their trepidation really, so you have to most
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: people that come without any experience come very frightened of
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: the whole process. You know, am I going to fall
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: for macrodos? Am I going to fall apart in a
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: million different pieces? Well, in our experience, not only do
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: you not fall apart, you come together for the first
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: time in decades sometimes, so you know when you're ready.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: We can share a few snippets because just sharing the
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: cases that we've had come through our doors in the
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: last year bricks tears to our eyes collectively, it's really
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: awe inspiring.
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: Well, and I think another important thing to mention here
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: is that strain matters. So each of the different mushrooms
• 32:01
  Speaker 5: has a different personality to them, and a lot of
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: the mushrooms, you know, people have their little baggies that
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: they got from who knows where. The ones that are
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: most common because they're easily the like they're the most
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: easy to grow, are more of the hard hitters. So
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: they are harder on the psyche, harder on that emotional process,
• 32:25
  Speaker 5: can really give people a more tough journey. And then
• 32:31
  Speaker 5: there's also mushrooms that have a lot of lightness to them,
• 32:35
  Speaker 5: have a lot of happy heart to them, help connect
• 32:38
  Speaker 5: third eye, you know, with the greater consciousness, but in
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: a really gentle way. And so I think that that's
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: something also like I've done a lot of market research,
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: if you will, but also it's important to know like
• 32:53
  Speaker 5: what strains that you are getting because some of them
• 32:56
  Speaker 5: can be a little bit more like hulk smashers to
• 33:00
  Speaker 5: people when they're going on a macro journey.
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you for mentioning that.
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: And I think this is a perfect segue into talking
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: about expectations. Right, So, say somebody comes in and they're
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: looking to maybe learn more.
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: They've heard about psychedelic.
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: Mushrooms or in theogens, which we haven't defined, but we've
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: been using the term and theogen to say that this
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: is a substance that helps us connect with spirit, connects
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: with God, the universe to a higher source of some sort.
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: And they're interested. They heard about it. They know that
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: you are going to guide them in a safe way.
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: So where do you start with deciding where they should start,
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: and then also if they choose to go for the macro,
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: what will they expect to experience?
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: So are you asking kind of the process of what
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: people that, well, I can kind of give you an.
• 33:56
  Speaker 6: Overview of that.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: People come to us in a variety of different ways,
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: sometimes through their healthcare provider. We do some local education
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: here and a lot of word of mouth a lot.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: That's where most of our sort of new members come from.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: Typically the process is they'll take a look at the website.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: They might reach out and say, wow, what's this, So
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: we'll have a conversation. I'll typically have a conversation with
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: them and encourage them to become a member so they
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: can get to the back end of the website where it's.
• 34:32
  Speaker 6: Very rich in additional information.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: For most of our folks, they will become a member,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: they'll read, they'll talk to people, maybe discuss how others
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: have approached it, either micro or macro or both. And
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: I would say probably from the time I hear them
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: from them first, they'll take some kind of action interest
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: in within six to eight weeks. Sometimes it's faster, sometimes
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: it's longer, but that's probably the average. And once they
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: have expressed interest in psilocybin. We do our due diligence.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: We want to make sure that people are medically qualified
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: so you know, as you know, SSRIs and other medications
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: can sort of tamper the effect of psilocybin. Things like
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: lithium or really they don't play so well with with psilocybins,
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: So we would refer back to the psychiatrist. As a church,
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: we do not provide medical services.
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: We have a.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: Great blessing that Leah is a trained n tropathic physician
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: and she will do a thorough medical intake if they're
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: interested in macro as doctor Leah. But you know, to
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: keep ourselves safe, we keep that very separate. So they'll
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: get the medical intake, they'll get a beautiful hardcover author
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: signed integration journal to help them start thinking about set, setting,
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: intention and why all that's important. If they're in a
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: small group we're talking macro now, they get to meet
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: the group members, so we take a maximum of six
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: people at a time. The dosage for small group is
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: two to three grams of whole mushroom, So that is
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: definitely a psychedelic journey. But if you want to go
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: much deeper, like the five to seven grand Land will
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: take that solo one person at a time occasionally too,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: because you just don't know what's going to come up
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: with a much bigger and more intense journey. And then
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: it's a full day ceremony. We provide transportation. Leah does
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: beautiful ceremony, a little bit of movement, a little meditation,
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: the sacrament sacrament because we're a church, the psilocybin is
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: taken in a tee so it's really very palatable.
• 36:58
  Speaker 6: Church is here at my home.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: I have thirteen acres of land and it's getting more
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: and more to look like a formal retreat.
• 37:06
  Speaker 6: You know.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: We start in teepee. We have a lot of comfortable,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: beautiful places for people to go. Everybody in you know,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: communes with the mushrooms in a different way.
• 37:16
  Speaker 6: So if you want to stay in the.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Teepee with an iemask and meditative music, you're welcome to.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: If you want to wander around the property, we encourage it.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: If you want to sit in the swing under the
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: city tree, I have a city tree, Arthur, the city tree.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: Everyone is drawn to Arthur. If you want to sit
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: in the hot tub, whatever you want to do. Our
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: job is to make sure you're safe, well tared for,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: you're not getting too much sun, you have water on board.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: If you want to talk, we were there for you
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: to talk to. If you want to be left completely alone,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: we just want to make sure we know where you
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: are and you're at peace, so we allow people to
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: interact as they wish. The journey itself lasts three to
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: four hours.
• 38:03
  Speaker 6: Typically it comes down.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Kind of in waves, and then we'll have a family
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: meal to follow, do some integration work. Leah will drop
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: all the babies off to follow, who end up being
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: different persons than the ones that came in the morning.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Energy shifts radically a lot of times, they'll you know,
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: it'll be like a hotail party at the end that
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: everyone has left their baggage someplace else. It's beautiful and
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: it's really really very durable. And then we do integration
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: specific to that group, as well as ongoing integration every
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: month and as needed. So community and support are really
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: part of this whole process. The microdosing is a little
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: bit less extreme as we were talking about it sort
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: of whispers, and we do do a medical intake of
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: screening for that as well, but at low level unless
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: they have interfering substances on board. That's we don't take
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: as much proactive you know, we're doing a formal medical
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: screen and we're going to go through your history. What
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: you're after. You know, if you have any cardiac issues
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: or all of that is covered if you do macros.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: So that's kind of the process. And generally speaking, they'll
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: start really participating with the community, assuming they're local, so.
• 39:27
  Speaker 6: They come to the events.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: They make really close friends with other people that are
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: traveling this same pathway. You know, once, once you have
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: a common bond, like doing psychedelic medicines at a church
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: in the high Desert, that's a really big thing, right,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: you immediately understand each other. So the community has been
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: a really beautiful supportive aspect of this whole endeavorment.
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm beautiful.
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: And you mentioned a good safety profile for psilocypin. So
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: I'm wondering, are there any side effects during the journey
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: or after the journey that you have noticed in your experience?
• 40:13
  Speaker 5: Side effects? That's an interesting question. So I guess I'll
• 40:18
  Speaker 5: start off with there are some hard nos for people
• 40:22
  Speaker 5: as far as participating in this medicine and treated by
• 40:26
  Speaker 5: polar disorder. Is a big one, people that are on
• 40:30
  Speaker 5: lithium medications, and then people that are on like super
• 40:34
  Speaker 5: strong multiple SSRIs SNRIs, you know, different psychotropic medicine. So
• 40:43
  Speaker 5: from that perspective, it's not to say that people that
• 40:47
  Speaker 5: are on SSRIs don't have the ability to participate in
• 40:51
  Speaker 5: this medicine because it does have such a strong safety profile.
• 40:54
  Speaker 5: But we work with them and they're prescribing physician to
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: basically if they need to taper down a little bit
• 41:02
  Speaker 5: before their journey, because again, psilocybin is going to compete
• 41:06
  Speaker 5: specifically with SSRIs for the same receptors, so they get
• 41:10
  Speaker 5: more of a blunting effect, and if they are on
• 41:14
  Speaker 5: a high dose of SSRIs and taking psilocybin, there is
• 41:17
  Speaker 5: the potential for what's called serotonin syndrome and that is
• 41:20
  Speaker 5: a medical emergency. So we want to make sure that
• 41:23
  Speaker 5: we can help taper people down before they go through
• 41:27
  Speaker 5: a big journey and not completely have to be off
• 41:30
  Speaker 5: of them, but at least taper them down before that experience.
• 41:35
  Speaker 5: But we also want to know whether or not they
• 41:37
  Speaker 5: have any heart disease or any a rhythmias. Psilocybin can
• 41:41
  Speaker 5: increase heart rate, and so for people that have a
• 41:44
  Speaker 5: rhythmias or high blood pressure. It's something to just like
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: have in the background information knowing that those things are
• 41:53
  Speaker 5: controlled in that set in that way and not uncontrolled.
• 41:58
  Speaker 5: The other thing is caesar disorders or epilepsy, So those
• 42:02
  Speaker 5: are things that we also screen for because a lot
• 42:06
  Speaker 5: of anti seizure medication or anti epileptic medication can interfere
• 42:12
  Speaker 5: with psilocybin. We want to know if they have diabetes,
• 42:15
  Speaker 5: because blood sugar decreases. We encourage people to be fasting
• 42:20
  Speaker 5: and in a fastened state before they take the medicine
• 42:24
  Speaker 5: or take the sacrament because it helps the activation of
• 42:29
  Speaker 5: it happen faster. So if they have diabetes, we want
• 42:32
  Speaker 5: to make sure that they have their you know, blood
• 42:36
  Speaker 5: sugar controlled and for those we can adjust the whole
• 42:39
  Speaker 5: fasting aspect. Liver kidney disease, so psilocybin is converted into
• 42:46
  Speaker 5: silicen in the liver. So liver disease is specifically non
• 42:51
  Speaker 5: alcoholic fatty liver disease, any cirrhosis, any you know, effective
• 42:56
  Speaker 5: agent on board is something to pay attention to kidney disease.
• 43:01
  Speaker 5: It's a water soluble nutrient, and so want to make
• 43:03
  Speaker 5: sure that they're able to excrete it, you know. Anyways,
• 43:07
  Speaker 5: there's like there's a whole list that we can continue
• 43:11
  Speaker 5: to rally through this, but also knowing what their psychiatric
• 43:14
  Speaker 5: history is. So if we think about potential side effects
• 43:19
  Speaker 5: against strain matters and so a lot of people on
• 43:23
  Speaker 5: certain strains will have a harder time emotionally and have that,
• 43:28
  Speaker 5: you know, more of an emotional break, have a harder
• 43:30
  Speaker 5: time going through it. But certain strains can also make
• 43:34
  Speaker 5: for a really pleasant experience. So even if they are
• 43:36
  Speaker 5: having quote unquote a difficult time, it is a happy
• 43:39
  Speaker 5: difficult time. We have lots of people that will sit
• 43:43
  Speaker 5: and cry but have the biggest smiles on their faces.
• 43:48
  Speaker 5: So I guess, to answer your question from a medical perspective,
• 43:52
  Speaker 5: side effects can be increase heart rate, decrease blood pressure
• 43:57
  Speaker 5: or excuse me, increase blood pressure, decrease glucose levels. There
• 44:02
  Speaker 5: can be that emotional release, right so that I guess
• 44:06
  Speaker 5: potentially could be a side effect, but it's kind of
• 44:09
  Speaker 5: like what you're going there for. And body temperature decreases
• 44:14
  Speaker 5: as well.
• 44:15
  Speaker 6: So the one other.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: Thing that's a small side effect that's easily addressed is nausea.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: The kitan and the mushrooms can make folks nauseous. It's
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: really common with women, especially older women like Marcials. So
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: we will typically offer a little bit of protein, some nuts,
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: a little cheese or something like that to have on board,
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: which most of the time will knock that out. But
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: we also offer zofram so an anti emetic, because we
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: want people on macro journey to not feel uncomfortable, so
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: we have that available as a prophylactic agent. The nausea
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: will go away, but it's no fun to be nauseous,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: so we try to make sure that that does not happen.
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you for the safety for questions.
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: I think that's one of the things that is really
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: really important for people to know going in what to
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: expect and how to prepare themselves and how to know
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: if this is for them, because you always want to
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: do risk versus benefit and medicine in anything that we endeavor,
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: So think that is really important and thank you so
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: much for sharing how you handle it.
• 45:28
  Speaker 5: Now.
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: There's also a lot of talk about trauma, right and everybody,
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: like you said, you know, nobody comes into this life
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: or comes out of this life without some level of trauma,
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: and our perception of what that is can vary from
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: person to person. But what did this What does the
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: psychedelic medicine space offer for trauma?
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: Can it retraumatize a person? Is that a possibility? Or
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: how does it connect people to their trauma or out
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: of their trauma?
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: This is who because, as as Leah says, you got
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of things going on in your brain, right,
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: So folks that have trauma that built this big level
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: of armor. And it's just pardon my language, but I
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: say like, oh, you're in the ship river right, all
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: this garbage up to your eyeballs.
• 46:30
  Speaker 6: It owns you.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: You're stuck, and you know from just thinking about what
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: the mushrooms do, not the mechanisms, but the mushrooms take
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: you out of the river and put you on the bank, right,
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: so you can shake it all off and it's still there.
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: The things have happened, but it just doesn't own you anymore.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: And the release you see with people that go through
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: that experience is just mind boggling, mind boggling. The whole
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: shift in energy we had. You know, this one of
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: my favorite little stories. I won't go into it in
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: great detail, but this.
• 47:11
  Speaker 6: Poor woman in her fifties sexual abuse.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: All through her childhood by a family member, nobody admitted
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: it into adulthood, had broken, you know, relationships all over
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: the place, was wearing a mask most of her life,
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: had a really unhealthy relationship with alcohol.
• 47:29
  Speaker 6: She was terrified.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: She was one of those that sat for four hours,
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: tears streaming down her face, big smile on and sort
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: of as she's coming out of her journey, looks at
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: us and says, who am I now without this burden?
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: Welcome home, Welcome home. She in two months, you know,
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: addressed her abuse, her and everyone else that had covered
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: it up, brought her to kids, back to her house
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: and they've been living with the dad, got a job after.
• 48:06
  Speaker 6: Two years of unemployment. This is all within two months.
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: These shifts are really really durable, and integration's part of it.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: So it's really important in what we offer to try
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: to help support people with the tools that work for
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: them to keep on that track, because you know, the
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: brain is a it's a habituated organism, so if you
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: let it go back to the ship river, it's going
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: to go back there. So we want to keep you
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: on the bank. And it's not that hard to do it.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: It's really really amazing the shift that people get, especially
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: the folks with trauma, the deep traumas though often will
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: need a couple of visits. Well.
• 48:48
  Speaker 5: And so that's the other thing just to mention that
• 48:51
  Speaker 5: is that if you do need to get back in
• 48:53
  Speaker 5: the river and it need to, you know, go a
• 48:56
  Speaker 5: little bit further down the stream and continue to unpack
• 49:00
  Speaker 5: those layers. This medicine can you know, give you the
• 49:04
  Speaker 5: tools to make a boat so that you're not getting
• 49:08
  Speaker 5: back in the river back up to your eyeballs. You
• 49:11
  Speaker 5: actually have a vessel now where you can continue to
• 49:15
  Speaker 5: go down river and view this beautiful you know river
• 49:19
  Speaker 5: if you will, but not be in it, and then
• 49:23
  Speaker 5: find another bank, right, find another eddy, find another pull
• 49:26
  Speaker 5: out space on your next journey, so that you can
• 49:30
  Speaker 5: look at it from a different perspective, look at it
• 49:32
  Speaker 5: from a little bit further on down through the journey
• 49:35
  Speaker 5: of what those layers are.
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: Wow, well, Pam and Leah, those are absolutely brilliant analogies.
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: And I've absolutely loved this conversation. And if you have
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: just one more minute, I'd love to do a rapid
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: fire around with.
• 49:49
  Speaker 5: You, please, all right, So.
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: Question number one, I always ask this of everybody what's
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: the number one thing that you would recommend somebody do
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: to improve their of life right now?
• 50:03
  Speaker 6: Sleep?
• 50:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I would say take a deep breath or five
• 50:11
  Speaker 5: deep breaths.
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: Great option, great option. Okay.
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: Question number two, what's something that you wish more people
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: knew about psychedelic medicine, That.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: It's not scary, that it's not outside of yourself, it
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: helps you reconnect with who you really are.
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: Beautiful? Now, question three is a fun one.
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: What's a fun hobby that each of you have or
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: maybe something surprising that most people don't know about you.
• 50:50
  Speaker 5: I'm a vermiculturist, so I raise words.
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: That's different.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: But I to be a workaholic. But I would say
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: if a fun hobby, I don't do too much of anymore,
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: but jumping out of airplanes?
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: All right, you guys probably take the top of anybody
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: I've ever asked that question too. All Right, beautiful, So
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: I'd love for you to tell our audience how to
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: get in touch with you, any special offers that you
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: have going on, and how to connect further.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: Website is the first and best option. So it's set
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: us Seminary dot org. That's s E T A S
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: Seminary dot org.
• 51:38
  Speaker 6: That, as I mentioned, if you.
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: Want to kind of do a deep dive into the
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: research and the resources and whatnot, just become a member.
• 51:45
  Speaker 6: That's absolutely free.
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: We're going to share with you a little ebook that
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: I put together that gives some background on research, clinical studies,
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: some of our outcomes, and how to connect with us.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: If you're local to Reno, you'll see us around when
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: we make the rounds quite often. But even if you're not,
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: we do have virtual events and we're always available to
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: have discussions and answer any questions at all.
• 52:14
  Speaker 6: Absolutely.
• 52:14
  Speaker 5: You can also follow us on social media, so it's
• 52:18
  Speaker 5: at SETAs dot Seminary, So come find.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: Us on social media.
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: All right, perfect.
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: I'll have all those links in the show notes for everybody.
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: And thanks so much again for this wonderful conversation Pam
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: and Lia and I hope to see you again soon.
• 52:34
  Speaker 5: Bye, Helena, Thanks so much.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of the
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: Holistic Pharmacy Podcast, and I truly hope you enjoyed the show.
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: If you learn something useful in this episode, please consider
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: giving the show a five star rating and a sincere
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: review so that more people can find it or share
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: it with a friend directly. To get in touch with me,
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: You can find me on social media by looking up
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: my name, books of or email me at Marina at
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: rawfork dot com.
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: Take good care and see you soon.