Latest / Not Another Energy Podcast / The Great Data Paradox: From Creepy to Capable
Transcript
- Bethany Ruhe: Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to your new favorite podcast, not another energy podcast. I'm Bethany. And together we are Bloom Advisory Partners. Today we're gonna be talking about data. living in the most data-rich moment in human history. More signals, more sensors, more forecasting tools than ever before. And yet, Teresa Ringenbach: and I'm Teresa. Bethany Ruhe: Why does it feel like the grid isn't keeping up? We know storms are coming, not just a storm, but stronger, more frequent, more disruptive storms. We have forecasting models that can see them forming. We have smart circuits that can reroute power. We have appliances in our homes that can react in real time. So here is the uncomfortable question. Are we falling behind because we can't do better or because we are choosing not to. Let's dig into it. Theresa, why don't we kick this off by talking about the great data paradox. Teresa Ringenbach: Yes. So the grid isn't blind and it hasn't been for 20 some years. we were sort of thinking of this podcast, Bethany. I kind of was thinking of the, peep show theme. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, ⁓ are they peeping on you? ⁓ Bethany Ruhe: the peep show theme. Hey, this is a family podcast, Teresa. Teresa Ringenbach: I mean, they kind of are, right? I mean, let's be honest. The data that exists in utility world can actually see you showering. It can see when you're cooking. It can see when you're home. And that in a world 20 years ago was very creepy. And we put up laws and these weird regulations. But today, I mean, My phone is sending me stuff about Spencer Pratt because one day I was talking about, you know, in retirement when I live in California. I can't vote on Spencer Pratt. Why am I getting all of his videos, which are highly entertaining but wrong audience, right? We no longer live in a world where we live in fear of data. And unfortunately for utilities, while we can understand usage patterns at a home, business or neighborhood level, for whatever reason, we still kind of think of that as creepy and we prohibit its use. Bethany Ruhe: Why do you think that people are with having their data used in some ways and then there's still this reluctance on the utility side? Do you think it's just the messaging, the framing, ⁓ history since, you know, going back to when Smart Grid first started, we've talked about this, the tin foil hat phase, right? ⁓ Centerpoint, when they were trying to roll out smart meaners in Texas, people would come out with guns. I do you think it's just rooted in that that was the ⁓ and the unfurling, if you will, of the Smart Grid? Teresa Ringenbach: Yes, I think it started with smart meters and individuals usage, but I think that unfortunately it's expanded into the entire grid. So your grid isn't just about that meter on your house. We have a smarter grid that is about upgrading infrastructure. Utilities can forecast so specifically using all of this data, including your home data, that there's no reason that our grid should ever struggle. And I'm not saying that people don't run into poles and wires with their cars. Obviously, you have that part of it. But. When that happens, you should have a smart enough grid that you can actually shift the power in a way that would have been a four hour outage is now 30 minutes or less, and then the power's back on. We aren't using it that way because of exactly what you talked about, right? This time in all of our lives where data was something scary, ⁓ look at me without me knowing, but we're beyond that, right? That's where technology and our behavior and how we interact with the grid also needs to adapt. Bethany Ruhe: So then what would you say is missing? How do we make that leap? How do we get people to see the value that this can unlock for them? Because I think if people start clamoring for these things, and that might ultimately be what would change a utility's heart and mind on what they're doing with this data. Teresa Ringenbach: Yes, I think we need to do a better job of talking about how data can actually lower your bill. So everything from allowing utilities to put in a smarter grid based on these very accurate forecasts. that lowers your bill, right? It means that they're not just out there. You know, we always talk about the grid as a highway and at some point you have a 10 lane highway and it's kind of pointless. You could still have that two lane highway. It just operates more efficiently when you have the right data. That means that they're not building more, which means you're not paying more for the build. And there's another piece to this, which is you as the consumer do things all the time, right? Gas prices are high right now, I'm sure. driving around trying to find the lowest price gas station. You can do that with your data in your home. You can actually choose when you're using to have the lowest prices or you could respond to a signal on the grid and say hey if you're gonna pay me or give me a discount on my bill this month because I responded when you told me everything was usage was high. Okay I'll participate in that. Now that data is not so creepy it's a moneymaker for you. Bethany Ruhe: So let's flip away from the consumer, the end consumer, and let's talk about why utilities might be reluctant to do more with this data. Because you're right, they're getting it. And let's be clear, when you say they could see when you're in the shower, they're not actually watching you shower. But they know when you're using your hot water. They know when you're using your washer. So why aren't utilities doing more to unlock the power of all of this data that they have? Teresa Ringenbach: pilots, every utility can see a value in a technology and they'll bring it in, but their regulatory agencies are sort of... loathe to let them just expand technology everywhere. So you wind up in pilot world. And the thing about pilot world is you can do this one little thing and you can show success. But by the time you come back before your commission, it's years later and the technology has changed and we've all moved on. Or you have people inside of these commissions whose sole role is to protect the consumer. Bethany Ruhe: Okay. you Teresa Ringenbach: And sometimes that protection leads to, I really don't want this data going anywhere outside of the utilities control. And then the technology can't work because you have to share the data for the technology to work. So pilots, would say, are probably one of the worst things that can happen. Bethany Ruhe: So I mean, there are some relevant concerns though, right, with data safety. were talking the other day, right, and you had mentioned Pennsylvania has a law on the books regarding the domestic violence aspect of this, right, like being able to use this kind of data to find out when somebody's home. ⁓ So do you balance, ⁓ maybe a regulatory perspective, how do you balance, is there any place that's done it right? Because there are genuine safety concerns, but we also, to be able to unlock all this power, we do need to be able to have ⁓ access the data. Teresa Ringenbach: Yes, and kind of. So I would argue California has probably come closest to doing it right, ⁓ except that they're sort of backtracking now, which is where the kinda comes into play. California, before anybody else, had home energy management displays that showed you what you were using in real time. They, before anybody else, had time of use. ⁓ before anybody else, had the California ISO had real residential programs. Bethany Ruhe: haha Teresa Ringenbach: And lately, they've sort of been backtracking. And I don't know why that is. Maybe it's because of they like pilots and the creep has gotten too far. New York's done a really good job. I would say a lot of the other states ⁓ not done a great job. They passed laws that said the data belongs to the customer and then stopped. and the utility started hoarding that data but not actually using it because they were told it's creepy. the next phase is it's not creepy. Let's move from creepy to capability. ⁓ the capability is there if you allow them to actually use the data and stop focusing on ⁓ you watching me shower and more about does this lower the bill. Bethany Ruhe: Yeah. Okay, so yeah, I totally understand pilot fatigue, but the reality is pilots are the way that we get new technologies and find new ways to make the grid more resilient, to drive down energy prices. So pilots are somewhat of a necessary evil, but then how do you scale? How do you go from a pilot to scalability? Teresa Ringenbach: you have to get beyond that creep factor of the data. You have to be willing to say the pilot worked in a short enough period of time that everything you said it would do it did. And then instead of having pilot approvals, have a pilot approval with a very specific data set that says if you hit this, you scale it. You don't have to wait for your next integrated resource plan. You don't have to wait for your next rate case. The pilot works. The data showed it. Let's go. Bethany Ruhe: Do you think part of those success metrics too are the adoption by the customers? Because a lot of these, I'm thinking about, now that we do have smarter homes, but a lot of the success of these programs or these capabilities that you have once you get over the creep factor are, the consumer has to be involved in it. They have to be engaged in it. They have to be participating in it. So I'm assuming part of the success metrics are, did it move the needle with the customers too? Teresa Ringenbach: Yes, I would agree with that. But I think some of it is there's a lot of competitive options that just need access to the data. And then if it's the customer who chooses to share their data and participate, the problem is we've restricted the data to a point that we won't let the accurate data reach the competitive market so that they can create those products that consumers can choose to participate in. I would also say, I know we tried to move away from the homeowner in this, but there is a world out there where we have a bunch of data and... the grid itself, the bigger ⁓ grid, the transmission grid. ⁓ for whatever reason, we're still relying on these old paper, ⁓ spreadsheet kinds of things. ⁓ we're not really showing our regulators, commissioners, the real data. And I don't know that's ⁓ just this is how it's always been done and people don't like to move on, ⁓ or it's really that the data maybe might show something that somebody doesn't want them to see. See Bethany Ruhe: Like what, me an example of what that could possibly be. Teresa Ringenbach: There are utilities out there that are very, very 1980s focused on how they make money. It breaks. I fix it. I get a rate of return. I want that. I don't want a grid that never breaks because maybe I don't get as much money on the software capabilities or a grid that functions really, really well. I'm not saying all of them. There's clearly plenty that do it the right way. But. When you have that, you also have a misinformation campaign that goes around that says, no, no, no, no, we don't want this kind of information. That would be really, really bad. Don't you want XYZ utility who's been around for the last 100 years? I'm your neighbor. Trust me. Bethany Ruhe: Would you think that there's anything baked into all of this that could convince a utility maybe that did have that mindset that this was something that they should be doing? I mean, to give them a motivating factor, what would be the why that you would drop in their lap? Teresa Ringenbach: I think there's two things. The original why is because your entire job and existence is to keep the power on no matter what. At the end of the day, no matter what, the power should never go off. That is their ultimate and sole purpose. The other piece in all of this is there have been changes in laws over the past few years. FERC had some regulation changes on accounting that actually allows them to make money on certain software. So there is some changes that have come. I just don't know if... the utilities have adopted it because some of them are publicly traded and maybe the financial analysts haven't leaned into the value on those sorts of things. if, you know, let's be honest, some utilities, you have guys that have worked there for 40 years and retire, right? They're not like other companies. There isn't this competitive drive inside of them. And maybe some of that needs to change. You need to get rid of that culture of this is how we always did it. Bethany Ruhe: You know, I was just thinking while you were saying that. We started off talking about the data paradox, but I feel like there's another paradox at play here and that's, you know, we, the energy space has some amazing innovations, technologies. I we see it every day. We see it with our clients. We see it in the people that we talk to in the conferences we go to. So there is so much potential. And then we're butting up against entrenched utilities that aren't able or willing to adopt these technologies, know, commissions that maybe don't understand them or are scared of them. And, you know, this data ⁓ is what we're talking about today. would say there's actually a lot of technologies and innovations that would fall into that same category. So, you know, it's frustrating, but how do you break the bottleneck? How do you, at a scale, get them to listen? Teresa Ringenbach: Yes. So I think the first thing is we need to get away from this idea that it's surveillance and it's more about service. So you have to get past that first wall. And I don't just mean in your home. I literally mean at commissions and even inside the inside the utilities themselves. It's not about surveillance. It's about your service. How do you use this data for better service? And then I There used to be a series across all the utilities across all the states where the commissions would invite in new technologies and they actually would talk to them about it. And trust me, some of these commissioners asked some hard questions for these technology providers, but it was all about that service. How does this benefit? How are you using that data? How are you protecting the data? What does this ultimately mean? And I think there's a little bit of that that needs to come back. We're in a world of just we're so flooded with information all the time that parsing out what works and what doesn't needs to be a focus outside of the day to day. What's your plan? Are you doing tree trimming? Are you doing fire safety? What else are you going to do? There's are you doing with all this data that tells me ⁓ likely to be a fire in California in this very specific spot? Okay, how are you reacting to that? Or you just have the data? Bethany Ruhe: So really it's having a more kind of soup to nuts thought out plan when you're talking to them. It's not just give us the data, we'll do these great things. It's, no, you really have to be able to in on exactly what you're gonna do. ⁓ Teresa Ringenbach: Yes, exactly. New York's doing great stuff with their data. I think New York is doing amazing across the entire state. I know everybody wants to talk about New York City, but they are doing stuff in some rural areas using the data to actually improve their grid. So it was an area that, you know, back in the day, it was just people complaining that their power went out, but nobody could actually see it. And now they're using that data to say, you're right, this very specific area has a lot of power outage. and it's because of this one very specific thing and now we can use this smart technology that will handle that for you. Bethany Ruhe: And I think that right there is how you build the trust that you are gonna do right with my data. So I think it's, you gotta sort of show people what the possibilities are because it's hard. Like you said, I think we're so used to just our data being out there. And I think in terms of like you talked about Spencer Pratt, which by the way, so sorry that you have to watch all those Spencer Pratt videos. Teresa Ringenbach: They're very entertaining. I have to say, like, as you know, we have our PR firm, and as a professional in that type of industry, I am fascinated, by the way, that he's sort of captured the issues in such a simple but entertaining way that it is reaching people in a different, who truly were like, what a joke, he's not gonna run. And now I think people are saying he has a real shot. Bethany Ruhe: Yeah, actually saw here. Here's how I agree with you, because I actually saw a video popped up on my FyP of Chelsea Handler basically begging people not to vote for him because he is not a real politician. So I figure if you got Chelsea Handler swinging at you, then people must think you've got at least a fighting chance. But all that to say, but we see value in our phones having access to our data, right? Because it feeds us ads that we want to feed us videos that we like. Right. So you have to be able to I think the acceptance Teresa Ringenbach: Yep. Bethany Ruhe: having your data out there and having it used for you is seeing that you're getting value from it. That's how we overcome that hurdle. And you are finding value in Spencer Pratt. And can find value and lower energy bills and lower usage. ⁓ it's just connecting those dots for them. And the only way you can do that is if there's programs and products that they can use. ⁓ Teresa Ringenbach: Exactly. Yes. Yes, yes. I always say, you know, your electric bill shouldn't be a lottery, but it still is. Right. I mean, you get your bill at the end of the month and you're like, did I win or lose? This data lets you not do that. mean, Bethany, way back in the day at Direct Energy, I don't know if you remember this or not, but there was a product that they sold in Texas where people could sort of pay by the week. So if you were you know, someone who was working at a job that paid you weekly, it was an hourly position, you could either choose to pay a certain amount for the week and then you could watch it tick down and reload it or take an action that kept you within your weekly budget or you had the option to pay weekly so that you didn't wind up with this really, really big bill at the end of the month that you weren't able to budget for. So you were actually tracking yourself. I don't really see those products around anymore, but I thought they were the most fascinating things. We had so many people sign up for those products because it gave them data in a way that helped them manage their ultimate costs. Bethany Ruhe: Yeah, and Going back to direct energy days, something that I was thinking about as we were talking too was the mobile exhibit. Just talking about once you get these things in front of people, then they can understand it. So we did a mobile exhibit listeners back when the polar vortex happened back like 2014 maybe and prices spiked and people states were threatening to re-regulate. So we literally put together a mobile exhibit that had all of these emerging technologies were ⁓ new at the time like Nest thermostats and smart hot water. Teresa Ringenbach: Yes. Bethany Ruhe: tanks and we literally put it in the back of a big truck and drove around to state capitals and had legislators and commissioners come in and we walked them through what was happening and why it was important to keep competition so we could bring these things to customers to help benefit them and so I do think that earlier when we were talking you did nail it I think it's kind of it's still it's see touch feel which is really challenging and energy because there's not a lot to see touch feel Teresa Ringenbach: Yes, yes. There were technologies on that mobile exhibit that at the time I was like, ⁓ that would be so nice to have, but it was sort of cost prohibitive. Now it's so cheap to get some of those sprinkler systems that run based on how wet the soil actually is, not just like a rain gauge. ⁓ Bethany Ruhe: Yeah. Teresa Ringenbach: you can get that now for like under $100, which is so crazy to me, right? Like this is technology and data are moving so fast that the second people engage with it, costs just drop. Bethany Ruhe: Yeah, I was, I think we had smart sprinklers on the mobile exhibit. We had smart lights. Yeah. We also had, if you remember on the wall, the bill of the future, which was a disaggregated bill, right? Like we envisioned this future where you'd be able to know exactly what was using how much energy in your home and see your bill based on that. And it's been kind of, I don't want to say funny or whatever, but you know, these things are all coming to fruition. And you know, I'd say we're well, we're actually well beyond that now. But again, what's driving Teresa Ringenbach: You did. Yes. Yes. Yes. Bethany Ruhe: all of this behind the scenes? Data. Data is key to any and all of these technologies. Teresa Ringenbach: Yes. Yes. And trust, right? Trust that your data is being used to the benefit and not necessarily, you know, I'm going to say it like a creepy peeper. Yeah, yeah. Bethany Ruhe: The creep, the peep show. Well, I think that's a pretty good place to wrap up because I think we do want to end on trust, right? You have to have trust. You have to have trust that your data is being used in the right way because we can complain about outages or we could choose to participate in solutions. We could resist change or we could shape it because change is coming. We could fear the data or we could use it to build something better because a smarter grid isn't just about technology. It's as you said, Teresa, it's about trust. It's about transparency. And ultimately it's about the willingness of all of us to move forward. So thank you guys again for listening. I'm Bethany. We are Bloom Advisory Partners. This is not another energy podcast. Please join us again next week and remember energy is never just about. Teresa Ringenbach: I'm Teresa. Bethany Ruhe: energy.