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Plato Roundtable with Ike Baker and PD Newman PT2 · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: What What's going to happen?
• 0:12
  Speaker 3: Heine? What help?
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: What is?
• 0:25
  Speaker 4: What is Plato? But Moses speaking Attic Greek right right,
• 0:29
  Speaker 4: and he's he's he's Numinius is subtle like he's making
• 0:33
  Speaker 4: a point there and what and and that point speaks
• 0:37
  Speaker 4: to what American conclusions are that that rabbis in exile
• 0:43
  Speaker 4: encountered the writings of Plato, probably at the library of Alexandria,
• 0:47
  Speaker 4: and those writings particularly were the Tamaeis and the laws,
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: and whether or not the Torah existed in some form
• 0:56
  Speaker 4: prior to that. He demonstrates it argues very very well
• 1:01
  Speaker 4: that if it did exist, it was rewritten after the
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: encounter with Plato. Plato's work after their encounter with Hellenism,
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: which explains why we get like a mercaba, you know,
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: a soul, the sole chariot that has no precedent other
• 1:20
  Speaker 4: than the okeema that which means chariot. And it's this
• 1:24
  Speaker 4: sole vehicle, right, So lots of problems there, if you
• 1:34
  Speaker 4: know what I mean.
• 1:36
  Speaker 5: That plays into the the you know, the whole origin
• 1:39
  Speaker 5: of the septuagen translation, which took place in right and
• 1:43
  Speaker 5: right there in Alexandria at that time, and it's it
• 1:47
  Speaker 5: really points to Okay, so like why is it called Genesis?
• 1:51
  Speaker 6: Why is it called exo Thos? Why is it called.
• 1:56
  Speaker 5: You know, du These are Greek words.
• 2:00
  Speaker 6: Yeah, the titles of the books are Greek.
• 2:03
  Speaker 7: And the substugen number as itself, I think beckons to
• 2:07
  Speaker 7: the harmony of the spheres and the sevenfold celebration of that.
• 2:14
  Speaker 7: The Alexandria really the average person would have known about
• 2:18
  Speaker 7: and you know, realized that title might have beckoned to.
• 2:22
  Speaker 7: I wonder, and even the allegory of the cave too,
• 2:26
  Speaker 7: I feel like is similar to, if not influential on
• 2:31
  Speaker 7: the Genesis Garden of Eden, right, And I wonder too,
• 2:37
  Speaker 7: what does it say the relationship of the influence, But
• 2:43
  Speaker 7: also that it would seem that there's different expressions and
• 2:50
  Speaker 7: sayings in the Bible from Paul that beckoned directly to Plato.
• 2:56
  Speaker 7: And I wonder, I wonder if you guys have looked
• 2:59
  Speaker 7: into that or just seen seeing that and what that
• 3:01
  Speaker 7: might say.
• 3:06
  Speaker 6: That Well, yeah, I mean.
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  Speaker 5: Paul Is is very much associated with uh, not not
• 3:18
  Speaker 5: necessarily Greek philosophy, but certainly with with a place like Athens, right,
• 3:23
  Speaker 5: because he goes there to the ari Opagas rock and
• 3:26
  Speaker 5: he makes that which if you're standing on the ari
• 3:29
  Speaker 5: O Pagas, you can see the acropolis directly across, and
• 3:32
  Speaker 5: it would would have been just above the the the Uh,
• 3:35
  Speaker 5: the Placauy and the Agora where everybody met in central
• 3:39
  Speaker 5: Athens converting people. And if you if you go there today,
• 3:44
  Speaker 5: there's still there's a plaque with with you know that
• 3:48
  Speaker 5: famous speech about telling people like you don't know what
• 3:52
  Speaker 5: you worship. But in Christianity it's different. We understand these
• 3:56
  Speaker 5: and so on and so forth.
• 3:59
  Speaker 6: To me, it it.
• 4:03
  Speaker 5: I think that he was part of a deeper tradition,
• 4:08
  Speaker 5: a more profound tradition having to do with a platonic worldview.
• 4:16
  Speaker 5: And here's the thing. If you were educated your science
• 4:22
  Speaker 5: in that time, your science was basically platonic, this whole
• 4:27
  Speaker 5: idea of the cosmos and the nested spheres and stuff
• 4:29
  Speaker 5: like that. The first time we understand the harmony of
• 4:33
  Speaker 5: the spheres, really that is later. It's in neo Pythagoreanism
• 4:38
  Speaker 5: and the fragments of the early Pythagoreans like Philo Lais,
• 4:41
  Speaker 5: and they're they're more interested in politics and community living
• 4:46
  Speaker 5: and what you shouldn't eat and what you should eat,
• 4:48
  Speaker 5: and that kind of stuff is really all the number
• 4:50
  Speaker 5: and harmony stuff comes around this time that we're talking about,
• 4:54
  Speaker 5: you know, Hellenistic period, maybe three hundred years before the
• 4:59
  Speaker 5: first Entry, so on and so forth.
• 5:01
  Speaker 6: But all of that stuff.
• 5:06
  Speaker 5: You get this, this this cosmology of nested spheres and
• 5:09
  Speaker 5: things like this, these eight spheres. The first time that
• 5:13
  Speaker 5: we see that it's positive almost contemporaneous.
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  Speaker 6: These two things. You have Eudoxus who gives us that model.
• 5:21
  Speaker 5: He puts that forth into the UH, into the you know,
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  Speaker 5: the the learned society of that time. And right around
• 5:29
  Speaker 5: that same time, like within a year or two, you know,
• 5:32
  Speaker 5: most scholars agree, is when Plato writes or finishes the Republic.
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  Speaker 5: And at the end of book ten of the Republic,
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  Speaker 5: there's this little section called the myth of Earth that
• 5:43
  Speaker 5: gives us that whole kind of nested sphere cosmology. And
• 5:47
  Speaker 5: you'll see in the writings of Paul, which kind of
• 5:49
  Speaker 5: tie into what pt was saying about the Mrkova tradition.
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  Speaker 6: He talks about how.
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  Speaker 5: You know, he most uh, you know, biblical scholars and
• 5:58
  Speaker 5: you know, people engaging in hermanutics, they'll say that he
• 6:01
  Speaker 5: was talking about himself. I don't know, but sure he's
• 6:04
  Speaker 5: talking about I once knew a brother who was assumed,
• 6:07
  Speaker 5: who was taken up into the Third Heaven. So he's
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  Speaker 5: using Platonic verbiage to discuss this is But I don't
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  Speaker 5: I don't necessarily know that he's like specifically part of
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  Speaker 5: a of a Platonic I don't know, a Neil, you know,
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  Speaker 5: you know, a Hellenistic sort of like mystery cult.
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  Speaker 6: So much as it's like if you just.
• 6:30
  Speaker 5: Look around at the knowledge of the world at that time,
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  Speaker 5: the ancient Mediterranean's all based on Plato already, you know.
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  Speaker 5: So it's like that's like me coming and talking about gravity,
• 6:40
  Speaker 5: and then like you know, in a thousand years people
• 6:42
  Speaker 5: are like, well, maybe this guy.
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  Speaker 6: Was in like you know, the cult of Newton, you know.
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  Speaker 6: It's like, no, it's just everybody fucking knew it. Every
• 6:50
  Speaker 6: everybody knows that guy.
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  Speaker 5: Everybody knows it's taught widely so and that's how we
• 6:55
  Speaker 5: orient like think of that. That's weird, right, the entire
• 6:58
  Speaker 5: globe almost or orients. There were, at least in the
• 7:02
  Speaker 5: in the educated aspects. They already they know the concept
• 7:05
  Speaker 5: of gravity.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: And stuff like that.
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  Speaker 6: So I think it's a similar concept there where Paul is.
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  Speaker 5: It's just the vernacular that he's using, uh, is so
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  Speaker 5: embedded in any kind of learned society. And we know
• 7:18
  Speaker 5: he you know, he had to have been somewhat learned
• 7:21
  Speaker 5: because he wrote you know, people people Again, you know
• 7:25
  Speaker 5: p D pointed out earlier, like the ancient worldview and
• 7:29
  Speaker 5: that experience. We've been completely abstracted from that, so we
• 7:34
  Speaker 5: don't think about like, oh, not everybody could read and write.
• 7:37
  Speaker 5: As a matter of fact, most people couldn't read or write,
• 7:40
  Speaker 5: you know. So if he's if he's dealing in these circles,
• 7:42
  Speaker 5: he likely has some grounding in the quote unquote science
• 7:46
  Speaker 5: of his time, which was which was very much so platonic.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just my thought.
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: The entire tradition of a sacred book, Yeah, incredibly new idea.
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: And in the ancient world, religion was something that was practiced,
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: it was physical, it was you were completely immersed in it.
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: There wasn't a sacred text that those kinds of things
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: entered with these mystery traditions when you would get the
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: symbolon the password to get into whatever tradition it is
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: you're exploring, and in regard to Paul. You know, I
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: think it's there's great. What I said is spot on
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: about him ascending into the third heaven. Again, this is
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: another confirmation of a Greek cosmo conception. It doesn't exist
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: in a vacuum. But as as far as what he
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: might have been involved with, I can't remember the author's name.
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: There's a book on Paul in the Mysteries of Baptism.
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: I've got it in the other room, but I don't.
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: I don't want to leave you guys and go dig
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: it up. But I can.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: I can.
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  Speaker 4: If anybody's interested, reach out to me later. I'll give
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: you the title of the book. But it's looking at
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: Paul's very likely involvement with non Christian mystery traditions prior
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: to his conversion. And he is a soldier type figure,
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: which really makes the cult of Methras of very possible.
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: And and they have that same model of assent of
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  Speaker 4: of traveling up through the through the heavens, right to
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: get to the final grade of Pater of Father, to
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: meet with the Father, become one with the Father, and
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: then embody the Father as a as a higher event
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  Speaker 4: on earth. So it's been argued that he was involved
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  Speaker 4: with them. But as to whether he was and whether
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  Speaker 4: he's even talking about him self, like I said, we
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  Speaker 4: we don't know that, but the but we can be
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: certain that he's drawing on Greek tradition when he says that.
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  Speaker 8: I do recall reading about Paul as far as Saul
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  Speaker 8: of Tarsus and Tarsus there was a figure called Z's
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  Speaker 8: that was a dead and as sinded god that actually
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  Speaker 8: rose to become Osdi's, which is light. So there was
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  Speaker 8: a tradition in that region of these this ascended form
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  Speaker 8: that kind of and you see this, that's this development
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  Speaker 8: of transcendentalism from going to you know, Shoal, you know
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  Speaker 8: this place, or with the Zoroastrians, the idea of burning
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  Speaker 8: off the bad parts so that you could return to
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  Speaker 8: the to the monad. It kind of you just see
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  Speaker 8: this evolving and like you said, as far traveling out
• 11:01
  Speaker 8: and then you have the various night journeys that begin
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  Speaker 8: of all the different profits and how they're taken into
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  Speaker 8: the heavens and showing the workings of the cosmos. So
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  Speaker 8: you're seeing this evolution of these transcendental forms of people
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  Speaker 8: realizing that there are you know, higher realms of understanding,
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  Speaker 8: you know, in time and space.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, you get a perfect example of that in the
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  Speaker 4: Greek magical PAPYRII if you look at the the Methrist liturgy.
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  Speaker 4: In the ritual, they call it a ritual apothenitismos, which
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  Speaker 4: means of not dying, of becoming a mortal. But it's
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  Speaker 4: it's interesting because this applethitismos isn't permanent. When you come
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  Speaker 4: down from the ascent, you are thanitismos again. You can die,
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  Speaker 4: You're no longer mortal, you know. So immortality is this
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  Speaker 4: glimpse into eternity. And and yeah, and like the language
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  Speaker 4: is so problematic because if if you say to someone, well,
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  Speaker 4: I experienced eternity, logically, know the fuck you didn't. You're
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  Speaker 4: you you weren't at the beginning, there is no end,
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  Speaker 4: You're right here. How can you say that you participated
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  Speaker 4: in eternity. But that's that's how we know that. It's
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: it's not about a duration of time. It's it's it's
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: that methraic, aon that transcends time, something more like the pleroma. Right,
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  Speaker 4: it's it's outside of time, which young would say that
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  Speaker 4: means it's it's a it's a quality of a quality
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  Speaker 4: of consciousness, not a quanta that we can count and
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  Speaker 4: say there's the beginning, there's the end. So in the
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  Speaker 4: in that assent ritual really I think the best example
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  Speaker 4: of one uh from from that era. It's wrapped up
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: with the same expansion of vision, expansion of consciousness. But
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: we always have to come back down, and I think
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  Speaker 4: that's important because we're useless as a hermit on top
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: of a mountain praying for the world somewhere like Zarathustra
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  Speaker 4: in Nietzsche, you have to come back down the mountain.
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  Speaker 4: Enlightenment isn't climbing the top of the mountain staying there.
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  Speaker 4: Enlightenment is is summiting the mountain, coming back down and
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  Speaker 4: then allowing what you saw from that perspective to inform
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  Speaker 4: your behavior. When you're late for work, right or when
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: you're trying to check out at the grocery store, or
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: you're beginning to have road rage. You know, that's the
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: real enlightenment experience. If we don't come back down, we
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  Speaker 4: don't complete the cycle. And that's what I was mentioning
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: moment A of these cycles that Proclust talks so much about,
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  Speaker 4: we have the Pruodos, the descent, into a body that
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: coming down from the mountain. But then we have that epistrophae,
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: the return, that anagogic ascent, and it's this cyclic process
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: that maintains a connection between the to you know, to
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: use a spatial category, which is really fallacious, but we
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: have to think about it. Somehow maintains that connection between
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: the gods and man at the bottom of the chain.
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  Speaker 4: We have to go up and come back down over
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  Speaker 4: and over and over, even to the point of death
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  Speaker 4: and rebirth.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 4: But but really there's no motion, there's no movement. It's
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: happening every second. Genesis is happening constantly, is what the
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: Kabbala is saying, and I believe that. And then there's
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: a there's an article that came out a few years
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: ago in Esquire about this guy who went to a
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: ten deboot retreat and they're practicing vipisana and he goes psychotic,
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: ends up being carried away in handcuffs and taken to
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: a mental institution because he enters that space where the
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: world is simultaneously dying and being reborn every second, you know,
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: every second, right, So the idea of going up and
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: going down, it's just a convenient way to articulate something
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: that is really ineffable, but is so close and so
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: present that it's like the fish asking what is water?
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: You know, it's it's you can't put your finger on it.
• 15:42
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and it's it's.
• 15:45
  Speaker 5: We have this is This is an issue I find
• 15:48
  Speaker 5: with people that come to magic and learn things like
• 15:51
  Speaker 5: the kabbala and and or at least the hermatic kabala, right,
• 15:55
  Speaker 5: the magical kabala, but especially also in taking students through
• 15:58
  Speaker 5: the Platonic dialogue is something that I that I I
• 16:02
  Speaker 5: kind of have to combat where it's like, you know,
• 16:07
  Speaker 5: this stuff should be a scaffolding to to the project
• 16:12
  Speaker 5: of what should be an internal experience, a nosis.
• 16:15
  Speaker 6: Somebody asked me.
• 16:16
  Speaker 5: I spoke at the Sacred Space between the World's Conference
• 16:20
  Speaker 5: yesterday in Maryland, and I gave a whole thing on theorgy, right,
• 16:23
  Speaker 5: but magic and myth in it. And I got a
• 16:25
  Speaker 5: question that was as a valid question. It's like, would
• 16:27
  Speaker 5: you consider theurgy mystical? I said no, because it's ceremonial,
• 16:32
  Speaker 5: But theorgy should make you a mystic because the experiences
• 16:36
  Speaker 5: that we are having are here in the in the
• 16:40
  Speaker 5: eye of the soul, you know, type of thing, and
• 16:42
  Speaker 5: again in the active imagination that's being seized by the
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: divine and divinized.
• 16:48
  Speaker 6: This is a big, big thing. When we say catharsis right.
• 16:51
  Speaker 5: Purification, A lot of people think it's it's this moral
• 16:54
  Speaker 5: things like.
• 16:55
  Speaker 6: My soul feels pure, I don't feel like any you know.
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: It's purification is the removal of obstructions to write view.
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: A lot of people think insight is the accumulation of
• 17:08
  Speaker 5: information in reality. To PD's point, the top of that
• 17:13
  Speaker 5: mountain is you divesting yourself of things that you that
• 17:19
  Speaker 5: you accumulated from that perspective, and so insight is clarity.
• 17:24
  Speaker 5: It's not, you know, it's not about how much of
• 17:27
  Speaker 5: this stuff you can pack into your brain if you're
• 17:31
  Speaker 5: gonna like put the cart before the horse, you know.
• 17:34
  Speaker 5: So it's every all this stuff has to remain a
• 17:36
  Speaker 5: scaffolding for us to approach and talk about. And this
• 17:40
  Speaker 5: is very big in the Platonic Dialogue, particularly in the
• 17:42
  Speaker 5: time Aus. When the chief interlocutor of that dialogue, Timius,
• 17:48
  Speaker 5: is about to start talking about time and eternity, that's
• 17:52
  Speaker 5: how he starts his discussion of cosmogony. He distinguishes, Okay,
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: there's an eternal component that the demiurge some for some
• 18:02
  Speaker 5: reason looks at and sees perfection in eternity and decides
• 18:08
  Speaker 5: to make a copy of it. And that copy he
• 18:10
  Speaker 5: calls the moving image of Eternity. And it's based on
• 18:13
  Speaker 5: space and therefore time. And if you notice, there's a
• 18:17
  Speaker 5: threefold nature to it, right, And this might be a
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: little lesoteric for people, but I'm assuming if you're if
• 18:22
  Speaker 5: you're into me and what PD do, you're kind of.
• 18:24
  Speaker 6: Familiar with this stuff.
• 18:26
  Speaker 5: He takes the circuit of the same in the circuit
• 18:28
  Speaker 5: of the different comprised of this kind of even an
• 18:31
  Speaker 5: odd quality. They're two dimensional, the circles two dimensional. Now
• 18:37
  Speaker 5: how do you create three dimensions from two dimensional figures?
• 18:41
  Speaker 5: Insert them into each other, and now you've created a sphere.
• 18:45
  Speaker 5: You've created three dimensions beginning middle an end. That is,
• 18:51
  Speaker 5: he's creating the paradigm of time. Right, Because then he says,
• 18:53
  Speaker 5: this isn't the cosmos. This is the blueprint of the cosmos, right,
• 18:58
  Speaker 5: time cyclical nature? But what time ason talking about all this?
• 19:03
  Speaker 5: He says, listen, there's really no way that we're going
• 19:06
  Speaker 5: to be able to actually put this shit into words.
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: So I'm going to do my best to talk about
• 19:13
  Speaker 5: it mythopoetically, I like to say, rather than mythologically, because there's.
• 19:18
  Speaker 6: A stigma to that.
• 19:20
  Speaker 5: Mythopoetically we we only have recourse to mythology to really
• 19:24
  Speaker 5: really show this to us. And as Socrates says, I think,
• 19:28
  Speaker 5: I think at the end of the myth of Er
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: in book ten, he does a brief digression where he says,
• 19:33
  Speaker 5: I if the myth had convinced us, it would save.
• 19:36
  Speaker 8: Us well with tim Ais in that cosmology. You also
• 19:41
  Speaker 8: see a very similar aspect in Zoraster in regard to
• 19:45
  Speaker 8: the beginning, the middle, and the end and bringing about
• 19:48
  Speaker 8: the end Time's philosophy through Judaism into modern Christianity and is.
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: Law and these these these the necessity of these myths,
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: Like I said, it's what allows us to discuss this.
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: Our minds need a picture, it needs something to hang
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: on to. Without that, what we're left with is what's
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: called apo faticism, apophatic mysticism, which is is a mysticism
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: of negation. Anything we say about the divine is wrong
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: because it's limiting it to that thing. Anything we could
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: possibly say. So we deconstruct our picture of the transcendent
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: step by step until we face what Deonysius the Areopagit
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: called the bright darkness, you know. But he doesn't leave
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: us with that. He goes on to say, but we
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: need cataphatic mysticism and cataphatic meaning to bring it down,
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: to bring that high, lofty transcended something down into something
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: we can discuss and talk about, like a crucifix or
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: a tree of life, you know, something that can give
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: us a picture, because the human mind needs a picture
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: to hang onto. Even if that picture is completely superfluous, fallacious,
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: it'll never do justice to what we're talking about. But
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: without that picture, without that myth, there's nothing to talk about,
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: you know. And then you fall into that that zen
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: that zen trap. And you know, a zen master they're
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: fine in that trap. But trying to take a novice
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: into that territory without something like a cone or something
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: they can hold onto, h it's an insurmountable gap.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: So the myths, I agree with you. It's they're essential,
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: but really cannot get us there. But if anything's going
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: to they will.
• 22:06
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's it.
• 22:07
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's that's a good way to put it. If
• 22:09
  Speaker 5: anything can I get us there, that will. My myths
• 22:12
  Speaker 5: will or because it's it's really I kind of characterize
• 22:16
  Speaker 5: it as a symbolic vocabulary. You know, that's almost like algebraic.
• 22:20
  Speaker 5: It's trying to break right, like the Pythagorean theorem. You're
• 22:24
  Speaker 5: taking two knowns to find an unknown. And that's that's
• 22:27
  Speaker 5: we know these images, We understand these relationships between a
• 22:31
  Speaker 5: hawk and the sun, you know, Horus and raw and
• 22:34
  Speaker 5: so on and so forth, and we're using two known
• 22:36
  Speaker 5: things to find an unknown. The one thing I would
• 22:39
  Speaker 5: recommend people who are interested in studying Plato first start
• 22:43
  Speaker 5: with the first Alcibiety's and you, I would say, move
• 22:47
  Speaker 5: through the twelve dialogues of the Iamblikian curriculum.
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: But in editing those right now, so maybe in six
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: months I'll have it published.
• 22:58
  Speaker 6: That's incredible, that's incredible.
• 23:00
  Speaker 5: And I would say when you when you do dive
• 23:03
  Speaker 5: into these dialogues, keep this mythopoetic structure in mind. There's
• 23:07
  Speaker 5: a lot that you will extract from the for instance,
• 23:10
  Speaker 5: in the cratalysts, right the sort of prologue to the
• 23:14
  Speaker 5: epistemological tetrad. For anybody who's caught up on that term,
• 23:19
  Speaker 5: it's just you know, epistemology is what can and cannot
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: be known?
• 23:23
  Speaker 6: Why or why not?
• 23:25
  Speaker 5: And and there's a series of dialogues where it's it's
• 23:28
  Speaker 5: it becomes very mercurial. Now in the Cratalysts, he's talking
• 23:32
  Speaker 5: about the suitability of names and things of the person
• 23:36
  Speaker 5: that Socrates is talking to. His name is Hermogeny's right,
• 23:40
  Speaker 5: her born of Hermes, right.
• 23:42
  Speaker 6: So it's there's little there's.
• 23:44
  Speaker 5: Tons of stuff like that all over the dialogues. There's
• 23:48
  Speaker 5: completely saturated with little things like that, little tells, little layers,
• 23:52
  Speaker 5: little tiny things. I mean, you look at there's the
• 23:56
  Speaker 5: there's the divided line. There's the allegory of the cave.
• 23:59
  Speaker 5: There's the myth of er, there's the myth of the
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: afterlife in in in Fato uh. You know, there's that
• 24:06
  Speaker 5: cosmogon or cosmological uh, a scent caravan of the feedris
• 24:13
  Speaker 5: up in the the the celestial vault. He's constantly using myths,
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: he's constantly creating myths. So it's if you look at
• 24:21
  Speaker 5: those dialogues like that, I think that you're going to
• 24:24
  Speaker 5: extract much more. And like what was ancient Greece famous
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: for mythology, you know, Orpheus, even pythography, Pythagoras or Pythagoras
• 24:34
  Speaker 5: is quote unquote teacher, especially Pherisiites, they were mythographers. If
• 24:39
  Speaker 5: you look at the Dervani Papyrus, which is the oldest
• 24:43
  Speaker 5: actual primary source in Europe in terms of that literature,
• 24:48
  Speaker 5: it's the oldest document. It's it appears to be this
• 24:52
  Speaker 5: pedagogical commentary on philosophically and ontologically interpreting mythology through through
• 25:01
  Speaker 5: the lens of Orpheus. So so this was kind of
• 25:05
  Speaker 5: like what ped was saying before they would have known
• 25:07
  Speaker 5: this stuff, especially people in the academy. And the final
• 25:11
  Speaker 5: point I want to put on that and I'm interested
• 25:13
  Speaker 5: to say what what Pedia has to say about this.
• 25:16
  Speaker 5: I've had a couple of confirmations from others that I
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: really really respect. But when I started taking I take
• 25:22
  Speaker 5: students through this this curriculum, we do the the the
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: Eamblikian curriculum plus porphyrish Isago gay uh, the organ On
• 25:30
  Speaker 5: of Aristotlin. Of course the Republic. You can't not do
• 25:32
  Speaker 5: the Republic. And then from there we move into we
• 25:37
  Speaker 5: go into uh like uh uh introductions to arithmetic, start
• 25:42
  Speaker 5: getting into the quadrivium sort of thing like Nicomachus Theano Smyrna.
• 25:46
  Speaker 6: All these guys.
• 25:47
  Speaker 5: But then you get into the geometric stuff. Okay, the
• 25:51
  Speaker 5: geometry and what was over you know, the fabled uh
• 25:56
  Speaker 5: inscription over the gate to Platonic Academy. Let no one
• 26:00
  Speaker 5: enter here who is ignorant of geometry. And I always
• 26:03
  Speaker 5: wondered why that was the case, And I said, Okay,
• 26:05
  Speaker 5: the divided line is geometric. There's a whole way to
• 26:09
  Speaker 5: geometrically kind of recreate that line and show the golden ratio.
• 26:14
  Speaker 5: You've got things like the moving image of Eternity and
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: the time. It's very geometric, the geometric proof in the Mino.
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: But here's the interesting thing. When you begin to actually
• 26:25
  Speaker 5: practice geometry. I use starting out, I use Lawlor, not Euclid,
• 26:32
  Speaker 5: because Euclid is tough for people.
• 26:36
  Speaker 6: That don't understand this stuff.
• 26:37
  Speaker 5: And it's all about proofs, it's all about logic. There's
• 26:42
  Speaker 5: nothing there's no spiritual commentary, there's no metaphysical commentary. So
• 26:46
  Speaker 5: in using the first couple of books of Lawler, who
• 26:50
  Speaker 5: translated through the Ono Smyrna, so it's nice, it fits
• 26:54
  Speaker 5: in nicely where there's a gap in the literature, because
• 26:57
  Speaker 5: there is there's a tremendous gap in the in the
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: ancient neopythagorea and geometric stuff. What you realize is that
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: in just silence of practicing that geometry and understanding it,
• 27:11
  Speaker 5: you realize this, I am learning literally the coding for
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: the universe. Now, what the Platonists and Neoplatonists say is
• 27:22
  Speaker 5: you are assimilating yourself to the way that the divine thinks.
• 27:27
  Speaker 5: And I personally believe that the reason why you couldn't
• 27:32
  Speaker 5: be ignorant of geometry to enter into Plato's academy, even
• 27:35
  Speaker 5: if it's just a fable, is because it isn't was
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: in the practice of geometry that taught these people how
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: to think philosophically, not.
• 27:45
  Speaker 6: The other way around. The practice.
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: What geometry does, the practice of geometry does to your
• 27:50
  Speaker 5: fucking mind is teaches you how to think philosophically. It's
• 27:56
  Speaker 5: like going to the gym for like, you know, noetic assent.
• 28:00
  Speaker 5: You know, it's just practicing geometry. It's unbelievable, But I'm
• 28:04
  Speaker 5: I'm interested to hear if that sounds just like batshit
• 28:08
  Speaker 5: crazy off the rails to.
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: You, No, I don't at all. I don't at all.
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: I think another aspect of why it's so important has
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: to do with with beauty, right, we get we get
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: these when the forms are discussed directly, the ones that
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: are confirmed. We hear about the form of the good,
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: the form of the beautiful, and the form of the
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: true right and and the truth and the beauty are
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: hallmarks of the good. If we see that, we know
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: it's close to and participating in the form of the good.
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: And I think the beauty and the truth of it
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: I have a lot to do with why it's so
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: effective in that regard. We know it's true because true
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: we're talking about when that word is used in in freemasonry,
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: we're talking about something that's square right, that's that that
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: works mathematically, it's going to fit together perfectly. So when
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: we're talking about is something true, we're really saying is
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: does it fit together in a harmonious manner. But the
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: beauty aspect geometry is is arguably arguably the most beautiful
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: thing about existing on on this planet in this domain.
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: But there is word play that Socrates uses that proclus
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: unpacks where he he uses the word against claytor because
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: the word for beauty in claytor, which means to call
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: to call out, are almost identical. And you know how
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: how Plato is with his wordplay, it's almost if you
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: if you don't know the Greek, you miss it. But
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: it's it's all through the dialogues. But what he's getting
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: at is like, where does a rose.
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: End?
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Is it?
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: Is it just at the rose itself? Or is it
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: as far as I can smell that rose? And that
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: smell is what Socrates is likening to a call. It's
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: calling us, and that call is the mean that exists
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: between the observer and the observed. And remember what Proclus
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: says about the soul. The soul is a mean. It's
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: a mean. It's a ratio between the physical and the
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: non physical. Between suke and physicis like between noose and
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: physicis is what suke is. So when we see something
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: and are attracted to its beauty, that's a physical, a
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: visual call, and it tells us something about the radio
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: between us. Where do I end and where does that begin?
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: Is there a line where we can say it begins
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: or ends? And to take the next step and say, well,
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: that call, that beauty, that mean, that ratio, that's our soul.
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: I think really speaks to the efficacy of geometry. Even
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: working at what we might call an unconscious level. It
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: forces the harmonies of the universe, including ourselves and our
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: interaction with the world, to be put right in our face.
• 31:59
  Speaker 8: And to that point when you look in what is
• 32:02
  Speaker 8: it Piedeo where he talks about harmony in essence, when
• 32:09
  Speaker 8: you create an instrument and you play that instrument and
• 32:12
  Speaker 8: you bring these beautiful sounds out of it, that those
• 32:17
  Speaker 8: aren't like you're talking about the line between where a
• 32:22
  Speaker 8: thing ends and where thing begins. If you take that
• 32:25
  Speaker 8: instrument and destroy it, you're in no way, you know,
• 32:29
  Speaker 8: destroying the harmony, because you can build another instrument to
• 32:32
  Speaker 8: recreate it's it's always existing, It's always there. It's just
• 32:36
  Speaker 8: a matter of how we're able to draw it.
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: Out yea, which requires skill and requires knowledge right to
• 32:47
  Speaker 5: tune an instrument.
• 32:48
  Speaker 6: Particularly.
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: The one thing I want to add on to there
• 32:51
  Speaker 5: is that in the ancient conception of harmonics, there were
• 32:54
  Speaker 5: effectively three three ratios sesqui alters, sesquitertiin, and sesqui. Okay,
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: so that's the root and octave, which are you know,
• 33:04
  Speaker 5: basically the same thing. There's the fourth and the fifth,
• 33:07
  Speaker 5: so there's there's three perfect ratios right there now in
• 33:12
  Speaker 5: the in the uh Platonic Uh, the dialogue, the Fato
• 33:17
  Speaker 5: that you were just mentioning talks about the three the
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: tripartite soul. This actually is an extension from the Pythagorean
• 33:26
  Speaker 5: so where they thought there were three types of people. Okay,
• 33:29
  Speaker 5: you know, the curious was the rational, the ambitious was
• 33:33
  Speaker 5: the spirited, and the covetous was the appetitive, and Plato
• 33:38
  Speaker 5: puts those into the tripartite nature of the soul.
• 33:41
  Speaker 6: Now, think of it this way.
• 33:43
  Speaker 5: These three ratios that have to have relationship to each other,
• 33:47
  Speaker 5: the appetites, the emotions, and then.
• 33:51
  Speaker 6: The the rational. They have to be this they have
• 33:55
  Speaker 6: to the same way. Think of it this way.
• 33:56
  Speaker 5: If you, if you understand the piano and music theory,
• 33:59
  Speaker 5: a chord, a proper chord consists of three tones.
• 34:03
  Speaker 6: Okay, now if.
• 34:05
  Speaker 5: You if one tone is playing a blue note, it's
• 34:09
  Speaker 5: off by a half step. We don't have harmony anymore.
• 34:13
  Speaker 5: We have dissonance. Classically, classically, you know, the modern mind
• 34:18
  Speaker 5: delights in ugly things. It's just what we've done. We've
• 34:22
  Speaker 5: created a new paradigm of inversion, and it's one of
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: the reasons why everything is fucked everybody looking out at
• 34:27
  Speaker 5: this and that's like you like ugly shit, you love
• 34:30
  Speaker 5: the disharmonious. What the fuck do you think you're gonna get?
• 34:34
  Speaker 5: You can get the harmony out of disarmony, you know.
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: So It's the thing is now, if you if you
• 34:39
  Speaker 5: orient that chord, that chordal structure, and it's right relationships
• 34:43
  Speaker 5: to each other, and then you think about that as
• 34:45
  Speaker 5: the three the tripartite nature of the soul. Everybody knows
• 34:49
  Speaker 5: the discomfort automatically when you when you play a blue note,
• 34:53
  Speaker 5: when you play something that's in accidental, something that's inharmonious,
• 34:57
  Speaker 5: it's ooh. Now can you imagine the existence discomfort, the
• 35:02
  Speaker 5: existential discomfort of having one of those three parts of
• 35:07
  Speaker 5: the soul not where it's supposed to be.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 35:10
  Speaker 5: So, and now his his his medicine, his philosophical medicine
• 35:14
  Speaker 5: for us, is the application of the four virtues. You
• 35:17
  Speaker 5: see it in the Alcibiades, you see it in the
• 35:20
  Speaker 5: Gorgeous you see it's fucking everywhere. A lot of people
• 35:23
  Speaker 5: love to talk about it. In the context of the Republic.
• 35:25
  Speaker 6: He literally takes.
• 35:27
  Speaker 5: You through all four, all four of those cardinal virtues
• 35:31
  Speaker 5: in almost every single dialogue in the in the.
• 35:35
  Speaker 6: Exactly why, because like this is the medicine.
• 35:38
  Speaker 5: These four things make it so that you will always
• 35:41
  Speaker 5: be harmonious. If you conform yourself to these things, you
• 35:45
  Speaker 5: will always be you will always be creating harmony.
• 35:49
  Speaker 8: And and to that point, in regard to the creation
• 35:52
  Speaker 8: of the state, Plato even at one point talks about
• 35:57
  Speaker 8: doing gymnastics in the womb in order to train. And
• 36:01
  Speaker 8: basically you have to learn these things from the earliest
• 36:04
  Speaker 8: ages and be edified in these things as you come up.
• 36:08
  Speaker 8: And the building of that whole individual person is what
• 36:12
  Speaker 8: creates the solidity of what is the macro to the
• 36:16
  Speaker 8: micro the larger state, you know, in essence, So it's
• 36:20
  Speaker 8: a matter of this this system of again like the
• 36:24
  Speaker 8: transcendent aspect of moving up towards the monad. You know,
• 36:29
  Speaker 8: it's it's the same idea with the state in the
• 36:31
  Speaker 8: individual within the state, and it's it's always in larger ideas,
• 36:39
  Speaker 8: uh than then, you know, like it's it's the multi entendres.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 36:45
  Speaker 6: I like to I like to cut your jib sailor.
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: I like what you said, like about about tritones and
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: about you know, flattening the third and entering these these
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: these you know, sustained to chords that that that they're
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: they they do not qualify as beauty. You'll hear people
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Plato
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: would say, get the fuck out of here with that bullshit.
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: The the the weirdness of an off chord is interesting, right,
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: it's curious, it's fascinating. It's not beautiful. And this is
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: coming from somebody that listens to Orni Coleman and John Zorn.
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: You know, I love love chaotic, dissonant music, but I
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: would never call it beautiful. Beauty is a specific form,
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: and learning to recognize that is really the first step
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: to getting anywhere in Platonism.
• 37:59
  Speaker 9: Right.
• 38:02
  Speaker 8: I think there's one point, and this is just recently
• 38:06
  Speaker 8: in what I've been looking into in regard to the laws.
• 38:08
  Speaker 8: I think it's four or five where they're talking about
• 38:11
  Speaker 8: comedy and then he goes into the tragedyans and he
• 38:15
  Speaker 8: says of a group of trail you know, a troop
• 38:17
  Speaker 8: of tragedians showed up at the city and wanted to
• 38:20
  Speaker 8: set up in the town square. It's like, first off, no,
• 38:25
  Speaker 8: that's not gonna happen. You need to check what their
• 38:27
  Speaker 8: material is. You need to check like what the philosophy
• 38:30
  Speaker 8: is and whether it's in accordance, in resonance with the
• 38:34
  Speaker 8: structure of the state itself, and if it's not, then
• 38:38
  Speaker 8: you run them off. So it's and you see this
• 38:42
  Speaker 8: symbolically from lower levels to higher levels, talking about children,
• 38:46
  Speaker 8: talking about comedy talking. It's in every aspect. What one
• 38:50
  Speaker 8: does in their younger life, they'll do less than their
• 38:53
  Speaker 8: older life. It's aschotomy between the play between the existence
• 38:59
  Speaker 8: and the non exist. In simlitude, I have I.
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: Have a question for for anyone who wants.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: To answer.
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: And I and this is, you know, a legitimate, honest question.
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: How how do you distinguish beyond beyond the understanding that
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: republic is very much talking about the proper constitution of
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: the of the soul of an individual, of the mind,
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: of the of the body, because that that is acceptable
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: to most people. But how do you defend, if you
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: would even want to, the objection that what's being described
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: as a totalitarian or.
• 39:57
  Speaker 8: Fascist it is one percent of fascist, totalitarian monarchical dictator state.
• 40:03
  Speaker 5: Well, here's the thing, though, here's here's where it differs.
• 40:07
  Speaker 5: And this is the key to what you said before
• 40:09
  Speaker 5: about the tragedians in the laws. He talks about that
• 40:12
  Speaker 5: in the Republic. He basically says, look, we're not gonna
• 40:15
  Speaker 5: have poets. That's not what's gonna happen. And he says
• 40:19
  Speaker 5: it is much lamentable, very lamentable. But the thing is
• 40:23
  Speaker 5: they can say things that are pleasant and convincing and
• 40:28
  Speaker 5: not have the truth in them. In the same way
• 40:31
  Speaker 5: there's no beauty in a susscord. There's novelty and interest,
• 40:37
  Speaker 5: you know, piquing your interest in the same way in
• 40:39
  Speaker 5: poetry could sound you know, it could fill you with
• 40:43
  Speaker 5: this sense of righteousness or what have you, but doesn't
• 40:47
  Speaker 5: mean anything they're saying has any truth in it, even
• 40:50
  Speaker 5: though it sounds good. Okay, that's something we all got
• 40:53
  Speaker 5: to keep in mind today. Okay, Now, what's interesting is
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: he says, he basically makes a caveat unless we know
• 41:03
  Speaker 5: we can definitively know that they have become philosophers. And
• 41:08
  Speaker 5: it's the same thing with the philosopher regent, is that
• 41:13
  Speaker 5: the only person who's fit to rule is the person
• 41:15
  Speaker 5: who understands this shit and applies it to themselves. So
• 41:19
  Speaker 5: here's the thing. If the ruler applies this system to themselves.
• 41:25
  Speaker 5: It's not tyrannical, right, and therefore it's not tyrannical to
• 41:29
  Speaker 5: apply it.
• 41:29
  Speaker 6: To a civilization.
• 41:30
  Speaker 5: Why because the definition Plato gives us a tyranny, he says.
• 41:35
  Speaker 5: First of all, he says democracy inevitably leads to tyranny
• 41:39
  Speaker 5: because it allows us too many liberties. Every time he says,
• 41:44
  Speaker 5: the democratic man is the father of the tyrant. Why
• 41:50
  Speaker 5: because the tyrant is not just somebody who has control.
• 41:54
  Speaker 5: The tyrant is somebody who abuses that control because they
• 41:57
  Speaker 5: are a slave. What are they a slave to their
• 42:00
  Speaker 5: own appetites? The tyrant is actually the fucking slave in
• 42:06
  Speaker 5: the Platonic system. This is a system of liberation through philosophy. Okay,
• 42:13
  Speaker 5: So I don't consider that fascistic.
• 42:15
  Speaker 8: It well, and that's the whole thing. You can call
• 42:18
  Speaker 8: it these things. But at the same time, because it's
• 42:20
  Speaker 8: based on this idea of ascendance and the higher thought forms,
• 42:25
  Speaker 8: it's an alternate way to look at the monarchy or
• 42:29
  Speaker 8: a system that becomes fascist in essence, but you know,
• 42:34
  Speaker 8: in accordance with the higher realms. That's one thing. This
• 42:36
  Speaker 8: is very utopian in essence as far as philosophy. But
• 42:40
  Speaker 8: when you sink into the more crystallized, you know, realm
• 42:44
  Speaker 8: of doggy dog and greed and everyone out for their
• 42:48
  Speaker 8: own it turns into this corrupted every you know, everything's corrupted.
• 42:55
  Speaker 8: So it's it's this idea of in this realm. It's like,
• 43:00
  Speaker 8: you know, communism works on a small level, but once
• 43:03
  Speaker 8: it gets so big, you know, it creates a cast system.
• 43:07
  Speaker 8: Whereas with this, because you know, we're in the physical realm,
• 43:12
  Speaker 8: this utopian idea, this mindset of higher forms, unfortunately, because
• 43:18
  Speaker 8: of the corrupted state of man, has a tendency to
• 43:22
  Speaker 8: eat itself.
• 43:24
  Speaker 10: I I also have an idea to answer your question, PD,
• 43:31
  Speaker 10: and that idea is that I think we forget not
• 43:35
  Speaker 10: maybe anyone here, but that this is a dialogue and
• 43:40
  Speaker 10: that this is a drama. And the idea of this
• 43:43
  Speaker 10: being a drama would mean that there are outrageous things
• 43:46
  Speaker 10: that are going to be stated, like the ideals of eugenics,
• 43:51
  Speaker 10: the ideals of you know, different ideas of like only
• 43:55
  Speaker 10: the philosopher kings now know whose children are parented to who,
• 44:00
  Speaker 10: and all these strange things that we today in a
• 44:02
  Speaker 10: modern society would deem to be a totalitarian or be
• 44:07
  Speaker 10: fascist or see murderous and really it is what it's
• 44:11
  Speaker 10: meant to do. And I think this is a really
• 44:13
  Speaker 10: important distinction, is that it's meant to show the contradictory
• 44:17
  Speaker 10: nature of not only the human soul and not only
• 44:20
  Speaker 10: the police, but that when we are taken outside of
• 44:24
  Speaker 10: our normal, everyday nois we can start to understand the
• 44:28
  Speaker 10: true nature of what Plato through Socrates, was trying to do.
• 44:33
  Speaker 9: And he's trying to teach us how to philosophize.
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: And we we don't know what Plato thought. That's what
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: That's what you're getting at as well, is that as
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: a dialogue.
• 44:45
  Speaker 10: That's exactly that is exactly.
• 44:49
  Speaker 6: Says that too. And well, again we don't.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: We don't.
• 44:52
  Speaker 5: Scholars are are It's a coin toss whether or not
• 44:55
  Speaker 5: they it's authentic. But in his second letter, Plato says,
• 44:59
  Speaker 5: the thoughts of the the beliefs of Plato will never
• 45:01
  Speaker 5: be written down. The dialogues are Socrates made beautiful?
• 45:07
  Speaker 8: Yeah, And I wanted to bring up one more thing
• 45:11
  Speaker 8: in regard to the Abrahamic religion. I find it interesting.
• 45:15
  Speaker 8: I've been going through the Talmood lately, and I'm about
• 45:18
  Speaker 8: a tenth of the way through it, and I find
• 45:20
  Speaker 8: it's very much set up in the same methodology of
• 45:24
  Speaker 8: the Platonic philosophies in regard to the rabbi is coming
• 45:28
  Speaker 8: together and basically having a dialogue about a subject matter
• 45:33
  Speaker 8: that oftentimes has never resolved. So I think there you
• 45:37
  Speaker 8: may also have kind of a carry because that wasn't
• 45:40
  Speaker 8: written until what four to six hundred AD, So I
• 45:44
  Speaker 8: think there you may also have some carryover with kind
• 45:47
  Speaker 8: of these ideas and how the philosophy has kind of
• 45:50
  Speaker 8: played into the growing strands of the different religions as well.
• 45:56
  Speaker 5: And I want to just point out one thing that
• 46:00
  Speaker 5: was that was pointed out to me by David kim Smith.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 46:04
  Speaker 5: You know, he had studied with he's you know, one
• 46:08
  Speaker 5: of my kabala teachers, but he had studied with with
• 46:12
  Speaker 5: some Hasidics, right, And there's a very richly preserved tradition
• 46:16
  Speaker 5: of Hebrew kabbala in there. And also there's a rich
• 46:20
  Speaker 5: preservation within their Cabalistic vernacular of Greek words like, for instance,
• 46:25
  Speaker 5: there's the name for them of like matter, or the
• 46:29
  Speaker 5: first principle of of of formation is huli. That's you know,
• 46:34
  Speaker 5: the the el or the the hula of the Greeks.
• 46:38
  Speaker 5: There's all sorts of ship like that all over there capitalism.
• 46:41
  Speaker 5: But what he said is when he went in and
• 46:43
  Speaker 5: he and to to engage in this pedagogical kind of
• 46:49
  Speaker 5: discourse at a long table like banquet style, and at
• 46:53
  Speaker 5: either end there was a rabbi on one side and
• 46:56
  Speaker 5: an acolyte on the other.
• 46:57
  Speaker 6: They were only working with each other.
• 46:58
  Speaker 5: Similar way you'd see people playing chess and they would
• 47:01
  Speaker 5: have their the text open in front of them, and
• 47:06
  Speaker 5: the idea was not that the text has the answers,
• 47:10
  Speaker 5: but that the text is a prompting for further insight.
• 47:14
  Speaker 5: And so this is having understood that, I see the
• 47:17
  Speaker 5: influence of the dialectic of the Platonic school the Deocratic school,
• 47:22
  Speaker 5: and now I apply that to the dialogues with students saying,
• 47:25
  Speaker 5: we're not this is not our Bible, it's not gospel.
• 47:29
  Speaker 5: But what it is is we're going to use this
• 47:33
  Speaker 5: to do what they're doing about about what they're doing
• 47:38
  Speaker 5: in dialectic.
• 47:40
  Speaker 8: Of elevating the spirit and finding the wholeness of the
• 47:43
  Speaker 8: self and the soul.
• 47:44
  Speaker 11: And yes, yes, well, I think it just to reiterate
• 47:48
  Speaker 11: the idea that Socrates is bringing upon the precarious and
• 47:53
  Speaker 11: the subversive position of the philosopher and how the philosopher
• 47:57
  Speaker 11: is the true rebel in the Republic and in Athens
• 48:01
  Speaker 11: at that time, due to obviously Socrates trying to prove
• 48:04
  Speaker 11: the point.
• 48:05
  Speaker 9: And I would think, and I think Leo.
• 48:07
  Speaker 10: Strauss and a few other philosophers in that timeframe, Alan
• 48:09
  Speaker 10: Bloom being one of them in our time frame, is
• 48:13
  Speaker 10: saying how important it is to know that the apology,
• 48:17
  Speaker 10: the actual true apology, was the Republic.
• 48:20
  Speaker 9: And I think that's really fascinating to think about.
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: Hm.
• 48:25
  Speaker 5: Well, I just want to say, man, Danny pd every
• 48:28
  Speaker 5: time I learned so much, every time I talk to you, dude,
• 48:31
  Speaker 5: I really you know, I love you.
• 48:34
  Speaker 6: I miss you. I got to come out and see you.
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: Definitely, definitely we need you out here.
• 48:40
  Speaker 6: Yeah, you need to go.
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: I need to come to I need to come to you. Next,
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: we're supposed to do some some crystal digging.
• 48:48
  Speaker 6: Oh that's right. Yeah, yeah at the gem minds over.
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: Here, Yeah, yeah, your place next.
• 48:56
  Speaker 12: Yes, I really wanted to ask a question. You were
• 49:04
  Speaker 12: talking about purification, right, It made me think of Platinus
• 49:09
  Speaker 12: and he reiterates over and over this stripping of what's
• 49:14
  Speaker 12: alien to yourself, and I think that's like Marx was saying,
• 49:20
  Speaker 12: I think like you were all saying, like that is
• 49:23
  Speaker 12: the process of dialectic to an extent, at least dialectic
• 49:27
  Speaker 12: of yourself. But it made me think of this other
• 49:33
  Speaker 12: concept of Plato's that is very unique to Plato, which
• 49:38
  Speaker 12: is the idea of the intelligibles and of them as
• 49:45
  Speaker 12: like these divine beings, right, and the further that you
• 49:55
  Speaker 12: kind of ascend and strip yourself of those alien things,
• 50:03
  Speaker 12: you know, you kind of assent and and if you
• 50:09
  Speaker 12: compare those intelligibles to humans, right, a big difference is
• 50:15
  Speaker 12: that those intelligibles, I mean obviously, not only do they
• 50:20
  Speaker 12: not have the sensory faculties, but they are not necessarily human.
• 50:27
  Speaker 12: You know, they're almost mechanical. They have they don't have
• 50:34
  Speaker 12: like perhaps changing will. But a big question that I
• 50:39
  Speaker 12: always have is, you know, when when we're looking at
• 50:43
  Speaker 12: these hierarchies, when we're looking at these intelligences, how I
• 50:50
  Speaker 12: know this is kind of off base, perhaps, but how
• 50:53
  Speaker 12: do you differentiate the planetary forces or intelligences and the
• 51:01
  Speaker 12: angelic ones.
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: That's that's a good question. I'll take a quick stab
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: and I think Ike, I know, Ike has a good
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: answer for this because We've talked about something similar at
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: New Hermopolis. When we're talking about the hierarchy of being,
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: let's refer back to the principles the limit and the limitless.
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: At the top is pure limit, at the bottom is
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: pure limitlessness, the indefinite diad. As we progress from the
• 51:38
  Speaker 4: top to the bottom, towards the middle, these become mixed.
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: So there's there's When you say they're mechanical, I don't
• 51:49
  Speaker 4: take you to mean robotic, but rather they have more
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: limit than they do limitlessness. They don't they can't swerve,
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: for instance, from the orbit for which they exist. If
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: I understood you properly there.
• 52:08
  Speaker 12: Yes, exactly like they they are more restricted. They have
• 52:13
  Speaker 12: like a certain role, or they're maybe closer to the forms,
• 52:18
  Speaker 12: and so they they have more distinct and consolidated properties
• 52:27
  Speaker 12: or identifiers about themselves, their way of behaving, maybe even
• 52:33
  Speaker 12: metaphysical properties of you know, the further up that you go,
• 52:39
  Speaker 12: like I would say that the planetary intelligences are also
• 52:44
  Speaker 12: metaphysical properties of the universe.
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: That's a great way. And if you look at Proclus's
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: breakdown with the hierarchy of being, and you see it
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: earlier and Iamblicus.
• 52:56
  Speaker 13: But there's the when he talks about the n cosm gods,
• 53:02
  Speaker 13: he also refers to as the visible gods, and we're like,
• 53:05
  Speaker 13: what do you mean visible gods where you're seeing them?
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: He's talking about the planets, you know, these are these
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: are in cosmic gods that we can see visibly, but
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: in cosmic meaning, they're in matter, so they have more
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: connection with the limitless than they do with limit Whereas
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: the further we go up the chain beyond the sun
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: is Helios, right, which has even more limit less limitlessness.
• 53:39
  Speaker 4: So we're really talking about the tension, like Ike said earlier,
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: between these two extreme opposites. And I think it is
• 53:50
  Speaker 4: at Heraclitis that talks about the tension of the bowstring
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: that that is necessary that produces the music that shoots
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: the arrow. It's it's that same tension. But when you say,
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: how do you distinguish an angelic being from a planetary being,
• 54:11
  Speaker 4: the real criteria is how much or how much less
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: of limit or limitlessness do they participate in?
• 54:23
  Speaker 5: That's a great answer, yeah, I And of course I
• 54:29
  Speaker 5: look at it in the same way where we're looking
• 54:30
  Speaker 5: at like ontological chains. Again, this is an analogy the
• 54:36
  Speaker 5: verticality of it like the tree of life. We're not
• 54:39
  Speaker 5: saying that it's literally like a beam of consciousness being
• 54:42
  Speaker 5: projected downward, but it's you're meeting the same consciousness at
• 54:47
  Speaker 5: different you know, I have to be a little new
• 54:50
  Speaker 5: agy about it, at a different frequency level.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 54:54
  Speaker 5: It's it's kind of like, here's a good example, like
• 54:56
  Speaker 5: a cladney plate, right, So the cladney plate is people
• 55:00
  Speaker 5: associate with heart with simatics. I made one and did
• 55:04
  Speaker 5: a demo for the Institute of Hermetic Studies a couple
• 55:08
  Speaker 5: of years ago. And you you you you connect a
• 55:15
  Speaker 5: a piece of metal sheet piece of sheet metal to
• 55:19
  Speaker 5: a speaker. There's a sophisticated way to do this because
• 55:22
  Speaker 5: you don't want to deaden it. You just want the
• 55:23
  Speaker 5: vibrations to go into it. And then I have like
• 55:26
  Speaker 5: a frequency generator that's hooked up to the to this
• 55:29
  Speaker 5: to this speaker, and I'm moving up and down these
• 55:31
  Speaker 5: frequency lines. Okay, you pour a little bit of very
• 55:34
  Speaker 5: very very fine sand or very very fine salt on it,
• 55:38
  Speaker 5: and once you hit a certain frequency, that will the
• 55:42
  Speaker 5: sand will begin to generate a geometric shape. That's not
• 55:45
  Speaker 5: the shape of the frequency. That's the shape of the
• 55:48
  Speaker 5: piece of metal. It's geometry that's holding it together. It's
• 55:52
  Speaker 5: geometric signature. Now you move a little bit further, and
• 55:55
  Speaker 5: the frequent the sand doesn't do anything.
• 55:58
  Speaker 6: You keep going, you keep going boom.
• 55:59
  Speaker 5: Okay, look now there's another frequency and for some reason
• 56:03
  Speaker 5: the sands moving again. Maybe it's kind of like quadrupled.
• 56:06
  Speaker 5: And it's what's the reason for that, The relationships that
• 56:10
  Speaker 5: these frequencies have to each other. There's frequencies all throughout.
• 56:15
  Speaker 6: You could move all the way down that line, you know,
• 56:19
  Speaker 6: just do this weird thing.
• 56:20
  Speaker 5: But for a specific phenomenal object, there's just there's a
• 56:26
  Speaker 5: specific frequency that reveals its inherent patterns. Is geometric patterns.
• 56:30
  Speaker 5: To me, this is evidence of the synthema though. Okay,
• 56:33
  Speaker 5: this is like what they were intuiting. You know, it's
• 56:37
  Speaker 5: like there's the God in there and it has different
• 56:41
  Speaker 5: levels or expressions on that specific frequency line, like a
• 56:48
  Speaker 5: musical scale, like a diatonic musical scale.
• 56:51
  Speaker 6: So when you're.
• 56:53
  Speaker 5: Tuning into these different beings, I think of it in
• 56:57
  Speaker 5: that way. I'm working this frequency, working the I'm playing
• 57:01
  Speaker 5: I'm playing the scale of Mars. I'm you know, I'm
• 57:04
  Speaker 5: I'm working the scale of the sun and pd makes
• 57:08
  Speaker 5: a very very good point which is at the core
• 57:11
  Speaker 5: of Platonism, neo Platonism, uh and early Christianity.
• 57:17
  Speaker 6: Free will.
• 57:19
  Speaker 5: That's what that unlimit is free well, he said, you know,
• 57:22
  Speaker 5: if there's more limit, they can't like turn it there, right.
• 57:26
  Speaker 6: Free will is really really important.
• 57:29
  Speaker 5: So a lot of times in working with them practically,
• 57:31
  Speaker 5: which is kind of outside of the scope of this
• 57:33
  Speaker 5: particular conversation, but in say saying something of you know,
• 57:36
  Speaker 5: we work with the pseudo a derivative of the pseudo
• 57:39
  Speaker 5: Deanesian hierarchies in the Golden Dawn, because that's what Agrippa's
• 57:44
  Speaker 5: mostly using, and that's where we get our our things.
• 57:48
  Speaker 5: The the type of and let's not forget these images
• 57:54
  Speaker 5: of the of the deities, of the of the angels
• 57:57
  Speaker 5: of the.
• 57:58
  Speaker 6: That's not what they are.
• 58:00
  Speaker 5: Okay, we have to create an image in order to interact.
• 58:04
  Speaker 5: This is what what he what Pete was saying before.
• 58:06
  Speaker 5: Our mind needs an image, right, otherwise just things start
• 58:10
  Speaker 5: talking to you.
• 58:10
  Speaker 6: What happens you go to the mental hospital. Oh yeah,
• 58:13
  Speaker 6: like you need you need to set this.
• 58:15
  Speaker 5: Up so that I'm intentionally this is you. I want
• 58:18
  Speaker 5: you to talk to me through this. It's an agreed
• 58:20
  Speaker 5: upon image that is ultimately relying on your available imagery.
• 58:24
  Speaker 5: The type of the Amlicus talks about this, he's he
• 58:27
  Speaker 5: he delineates what he calls theurgic appearance, he says, and
• 58:32
  Speaker 5: it all has to do with how much light they
• 58:34
  Speaker 5: give off and what quality it is. So gods will
• 58:37
  Speaker 5: give off this pure white, overwhelming light, whereas like daimone
• 58:42
  Speaker 5: is or they're a little darker, little murkier, a little ruddier.
• 58:45
  Speaker 5: And I write light is also synonymous with intelligence in
• 58:48
  Speaker 5: these these traditions as as uh, you know, the great
• 58:52
  Speaker 5: professor Valter Honograph has pointed out many times there's an
• 58:55
  Speaker 5: etymological connection between the word noose and light, particularly in
• 59:00
  Speaker 5: the Hermetica. So there's that quality of consciousness. But I
• 59:05
  Speaker 5: want to just sum it up by also kind of
• 59:08
  Speaker 5: bringing it full circle to what we've spoken about in
• 59:11
  Speaker 5: terms of Platonism. In the Platonic Paedia by the right
• 59:17
  Speaker 5: means education.
• 59:18
  Speaker 6: What is that?
• 59:19
  Speaker 5: It's because what do you think education was not the
• 59:22
  Speaker 5: learning of new information but the recollection of things your
• 59:25
  Speaker 5: soul already knows. An omnisis okay, the word the Greek
• 59:30
  Speaker 5: word for truth is alithia. That means not forgotten. It's
• 59:35
  Speaker 5: all about remembering, and it ties into this free will. Okay,
• 59:41
  Speaker 5: the ethical training in the beginning of the Platonic padia
• 59:46
  Speaker 5: allows you more free will. You can you have a
• 59:50
  Speaker 5: greater ability to make choices based on what you know
• 59:54
  Speaker 5: is best, which is allowing the rational part of the
• 59:57
  Speaker 5: soul to govern the other two. Okay, that's the beginning
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 5: of you gain more free will.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 14: Right.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 5: As Jocko Willink, very very philosophically puts it, discipline is freedom.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 6: Discipline is freedom.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 5: And they there's this word for discipline, self control, and
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 5: temperance that gets translated across the board, and depending on
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 5: which translation you're using a Plato Sofrosini, it can mean balance,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 5: but it also gets translated as self control or discipline,
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 5: and it is appropriate in all those contexts. Now, that's
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 5: a little bit lower down the ontological line. As you
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 5: go through the theurgic theophania and the the anosis, right,
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 5: the revelation of deities, and then the the eventual union,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 5: you gain more free will higher up the line. Okay,
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 5: why because you're constantly identifying with what you actually are
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 5: and not having this this not the the the rational soul,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 5: not being impelled to the the imperatives and the pulses
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 5: of physical matter, because they're they're they're fundamentally different, the
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 5: soul and the and the body in terms of their natures.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 5: The soul is effervescent, it rises up, It is immortal,
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 5: It is not spatially specific.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 6: The body is different.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 6: The soul has no needs.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 5: Plato says, the only time the soul needs anything is
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 5: when it's in a body and it has to get
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 5: into the noetic realm to be nourished by the beauty there.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 6: Okay, but it.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 5: Inherently has no needs. The body is different. The body
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 5: has needs. I gotta pee, I gotta eat, I gotta sleep.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 5: The body is spatially specific. The body is not immortal.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 5: It will die. So there's this constant like we're confounded,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 5: which direction do we orient our our intelligence? Which which
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 5: which direction are we are we working in? And it
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 5: all has to do with with with with free will.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 5: So I think, believe it or not, as you get
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 5: higher up the line, these things have less free will.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 5: In my experience, they have great power and less free will.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 5: Why because there and an the Amblicus says this, when
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 5: deities appear in theretic appearance, they're accompanied by their diamones,
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 5: they're accompanied by the there they're entourage. Why because it's
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 5: those things that that that like execute its divine will there,
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 5: which yeah, which is which is kind of interesting, but
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 5: but I know it's interesting to me also how like
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 5: the soul is really the only thing that gains more
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 5: free will as it as it rises, which in that
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 5: and that's just my personal anecdotal experience of these things.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 5: Is nothing like definitively tying anything I said to Platonism.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 4: No, that's that's it does You're you're absolutely right. We see.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 4: There's a great quote in Usta Vinis where he says,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 4: he says, philophy in the ancient world entailed trials and
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 4: ordeals and modes of initiation, you know, And he said,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 4: and most importantly, it consolidated all of one's ethics, politics,
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 4: economy into one thing, he said. So to philosophize is
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 4: essentially to orientate yourself properly to the world. And he
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 4: describes as he illustrates this by saying, it's like moving
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 4: through a sacred calendar like the liturgical cycle, and following
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 4: the natural patterns that the demi urge has laid forth
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 4: because the urgy, first and foremost is demi urgy, participating
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 4: in the demi urge by Mathexis through Mesis, by mimicking him.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 4: So he says, to to philosophize, then it's not to
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: be a radical exception to the rule to have some
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 4: new idea, to try and make your mark. To philosophize
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 4: is to do exactly what you came here to do,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 4: which is the most liberating thing, because it's the most
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 4: limiting thing. And we see echoes of that, and Mike
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 4: Alister Crowley, do find your true will, do only that
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 4: nothing else. That's a very Platonic idea, which speaks again
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 4: to where do we see Plato in these modern traditions.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 4: Crowley is a great example when you look at his text,
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 4: it's very obscure these days. But and the Oto we
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 4: received a copy of Atlantis, a text called Atlantis which
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 4: is completely based around the Republic, Crowley's picture of the
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 4: republic for a thelemic for thlymic group of people. But
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 4: that idea that that you're talking about, the further you
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 4: get and in the in progress, the less free will
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 4: we have. And uh cast but Bernardo Castrom, you familiar
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 4: with him, Now Philosophy recently wrote a book on the Damon,
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 4: but one of the points he makes is that really
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 4: the closer we get to embodying our damon, the less
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 4: free will we really have, because it's it's all about
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 4: a surrender to the daemon. And we could say, well,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 4: I'm not going to do what the Damon has set
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 4: forth for me. I'm going to pretend that I have
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 4: free will and do something else. You still do what
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 4: the Daman has set forth for you. The question is
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 4: do I surrend under and surf on this title wave
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: or do I get crushed by the tidal wave and
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 4: still go that fucking direction, because that's where the chips fall.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 4: Where the daemons say they fall, and the daemons say
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 4: where they fall based on what the gods have already
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 4: decreed is the nature of reality. This is truth, right.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 4: So the further we get in the direction of of
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 4: our daemon, and especially of the head of our chain,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 4: of our of our Syrah, free will is non existent.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 9: M yeah.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 5: The only free will that we that we attain here
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 5: is freedom from the illusion that we are the body.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 5: And then we move up and dedicate ourselves. And that's
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 5: interesting too because the Amlicus talks about the punishing di daemon,
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 5: you know, which is like there there are yeah, this
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 5: is these these are are to These are spirits that
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 5: are meant to sort of smack your hand or smack
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 5: your face if you know, like he give you a
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 5: little bit of punishment.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: They also contain, like he mentions that their job is
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 4: to keep us from spilling out of ourselves. Right, and
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 4: if if man has to occupy this segment in the
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 4: hierarchy of being, or there's a gap, there's no continuation
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 4: of the flow.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 4: So if I want to ascend, like i Amboa says,
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 4: first I need to be making offerings to my damon,
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 4: you know, and then hopefully eventually to the god. But
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 4: that punishing damon, it's punishing because it won't take its
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 4: hand off of us saying you're going to be contained
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 4: in this form in this you know, it's like a
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 4: parent holding a kid down that you know, it's it's punishing,
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 4: and but it's also containing so that the universe doesn't
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 4: fall apart because there's a gaping black hole where I
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 4: should be you know.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, And that's an important point I think for
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 5: a lot of people that are interested in some of
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 5: the things that we're interested in, because that idea of
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 5: punishment slash containment to to our society feels oppressive, you know.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 5: And really it's like some in my in my life's experience,
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 5: I mean a lot of times, punishment and containment was
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 5: an ultimate mercy. It was an ultimate benevolence, right, because
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 5: it gets you to sort of you know, uh, straightened
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 5: out and fly right type of situation.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 8: There is no love without correction. It's an old baddage.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 4: I like that, that's true. Ye, when you have kids,
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 4: you definitely definitely know the importance of containment.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 12: Yes, what could really be better than living aligned anyway?
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 4: I agree?
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, every anything else is basically that existential dissonance, right,
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 5: that's right, which is not comfortable at all. But we
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 5: you know, we've I think and this is just me,
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 5: you know, right, because I'm always I'm a little outspoken
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 5: about things, but I think we've normalized that that dissonance.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 6: That's that's existential state.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 8: Of music and art and media. You just see it consistently.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 6: Yeah, you guys are beautiful.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 8: Everybody here is beautiful.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree. This has been a great grill.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 15: Yeah, Unfortunately, we do have people that need to leave too,
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 15: so probably just gonna have a wrapping here.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 8: We didn't even get to talk about Atlantis.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, and.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 15: You know what, our buddy, you know what, At first
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 15: I was actually going to be like but I was like,
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 15: you know, I don't want to be a fascist censor.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 15: But I did won't even say I didn't even want
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 15: to touch Atlantis because you're gonna get people fucking bitching
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 15: and arguing about stuff that's stupid in my opinion.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 5: Oh yeah, that's that's the best way to get people
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 5: in the peanut gallery start ringing their bellies.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 12: Is defeated Atlantis. And that's the end.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: Of it, right, That's what.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 5: Well, the thing is to a lot of and I'll
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 5: just say this orienting it a platonic context. The the
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 5: time ass which is where it's mentioned, is Socrates has
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 5: traveled to the Pures, which is the port for these
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 5: uh Athenian games. The other dialogue where that happens is
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 5: the Republic. So it is typically thought, even though we
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 5: don't have the definitive connective tissue, historically typically thought that
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 5: the timeus is the next day. It's a con and
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 5: you even have the same interlock. Hue tears with one missing, right,
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 5: Socrates says, I see the three, where's the fourth? Uh,
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 5: one of one of the guys is missing. So he
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 5: just talked about the right way to govern, the police
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 5: and the internal police, and now we're looking at Atlantis,
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 5: which is the dark twin of the Republic, which is
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 5: like this is how you fuck.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 8: Up destroy society or yourself.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 5: And also aliens and Bigfoot and all that they were.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 5: They were all there with the muppets. They were all yeah,
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 5: synthetic Mercabas and Cimerassen.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Bob, both of you guys.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 15: Uh, let me start off with Brandon real quick, because
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 15: I know he's going to leave it in sort of Brandon,
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 15: please let everybody know what's up with you and where
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 15: they can find all your amazing words.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 10: Thank you, Nick, Cardinal electric Head, Thank you Ike, and
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 10: thank you P. D.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: Newman.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 9: Thank you. It's wonderful to meet you.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: PD.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 10: This is fantastic. I've been reading through your book. It's
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 10: on my nightstand. It's amazing and I tell everybody to
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 10: read it. I've posted it on my Instagram as well.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 10: An X so I am an avid pusher of your documentation.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 10: So again, thank you for showing up and I'd love
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 10: to chat with you more another day. Everyone, like I
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 10: always say thank you to the occult rejects for all things,
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 10: head over to Magas in the media, where we break
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 10: down myth, magic and meaning in the stories that we love.
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 10: The world is wild, aliens are real, and reality is
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 10: bending in its Epstein strings. Let's make sure we understand
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 10: the meaning within the soul with stories like this and
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 10: the media that is breaking, it's breaking its stranglehold on
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 10: our conscious. Please like, subscribe and share not only to
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  Speaker 10: my channel, but everyone here, buy all their things, and
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 10: make sure you know that no matter what happens out
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 10: in reality, it's not the true reality we stem from
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 10: the mind. Thank you again, Nick and everyone, have a
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 10: wonderful evening.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: Of course, thank you for joining us. Awesome, Liwesome and
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: Judith the Loon. What is going on, guys?
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 14: Thank you for having me.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 6: Thank you Ike and PD.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 14: You put a different perspective on Plato for me, which
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 14: I didn't even fathom. So I thank you for that
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 14: you could catch you could find me on YouTube and
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 14: on X as the Loon. I almost said Twitter there
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 14: as the Loon and just feel free to drop by
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 14: and join our conversations there.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 6: Thank you again, of course, no, thank you.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: And Jules my man, what is going on? Oh?
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 16: This was a great show. Uh learned a lot, maybe
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 16: a little too much, man ah Man. I have a
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 16: lot of questions myself, but I didn't feel the need
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 16: to ask them right now. So maybe we can do it,
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 16: you know, I'm sure I'll see you guys on another episode.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: It was really good.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 16: Meeting you all though. Great pilled Pod on Twitter.
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 9: We we may be streaming later.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 6: I don't know.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 16: Brandon will be on my show soon, hopefully this next
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 16: week or so, Grey Horn, Pagan's coming on Fair Toss
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 16: Road and a on Bite and a few other people
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 16: I think I have getting scheduled. So this this this
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 16: was a banger. And like I said, I didn't know
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 16: anything about Plato, hardly anything before this. So it's good
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 16: to know where a lot of these ideas come from.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 16: And I think it is important for people to focus
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 16: on their spirit.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 9: You know, someone had mentioned earlier.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 16: People kind to focus on or maybe it was this morning,
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 16: even they focus on the afterlife, you know, they kind
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 16: of don't focus on here and now and doing the
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 16: work that can help you ascend to that final level,
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 16: and so I think it's important to have these conversations
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 16: and to get that information out there. So thank you
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 16: guys for coming on, and it's good to see all
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 16: all my fellow rejects. Again, as always, thank.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: You, Guls and Robbie Boxx. What is up?
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 8: Yeah, this was a great talk. It was great to
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 8: meet you Ike and always good to hang out PD.
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 8: It's just some beautiful stuff to get into these ideas,
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 8: you know. As far as myself, I'm Robbie or R
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 8: Marx and I'm an artist illustrator And if you want
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 8: to check out my other stuff, I have my metamind
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 8: Cast podcast as well as all my artwork, you can
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 8: go to my website. All my links you can find
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 8: at my link tree, which are link tree, R M
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 8: A ar X and always a pleasure. Nick, thanks for
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 8: for getting me out of the little hermit hole on me.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: Thank you for doing man, thank you appreciating it. And
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: Arrows what is up? Arrows?
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 12: Hello? This was great. I learned so much. I really
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 12: especially liked all the biblical history, a lot of that
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 12: I didn't know, so this was great. Thanks for coming
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 12: on and having this discussion with us and it was
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 12: great to hang out with all of you rejects again.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 12: You can find me on YouTube at arrows up. I
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 12: post a lot about Platinus and chaos and order and
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 12: multiplicity and all sorts of things, so definitely go check
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 12: that out if you're interested, and then you can find
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 12: me at arrows to Ethos on x as well.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much. I was, and Ethan sir.
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 7: Well, Thank you everyone. I PD that was awesome. Thank
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 7: you so much for sharing all your knowledge and wisdom.
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 7: And everyone always appreciate communicating with you guys. Ethan Indigo
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 7: Smith on all the social media YouTube even and yeah,
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 7: I'm easy to find and appreciate everyone's communication if they
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 7: decide to reach out.
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 15: Thank you very much, Ethan, appreciate it. And I please
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 15: let everybody know where they can find all your amazing work.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 5: Ikebager dot com I K E b A k E R.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 5: I'll put that in the chat. You can check me
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 5: out there. I've got my.
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 6: The latest YouTube video.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 5: I do documentary style presentations on the history, theory, and
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 5: practice of the Western esoteric traditions. A bunch of it's platonic.
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 5: The last one I did actually was a while ago.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 5: But it's it's basically an introduction to theoretic neoplatonism. I've
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 5: got the latest three episodes of my podcast that you
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 5: can stream from there.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 6: You can read my.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 5: Blog find out a little bit more about what it
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 5: is I do. I give quarterly group classes that are
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 5: open to the public at an extremely somebody has said
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 5: fair rate, but it's not really fair to me, but
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 5: it's fair to everyone else. Yeah, so you can check
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 5: that out if you're interested. I have a newsletter that
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 5: goes out just about every Thursday, and it's completely free.
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 5: You can sign up for it there and then also
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 5: check out the Arcanem podcast that put that in the
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 5: chat as well. And again, I cannot understate how much
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 5: I respect you PD and how much I think you
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 5: are contributing to the dialogue here in ways that are unprecedented,
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 5: and I think we'll influence the way we go forward
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 5: in the future with these subjects, which, as you know,
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 5: they're close to my heart.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 6: So and therefore so are you well.
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much, I thank you for inviting me.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 4: I've had so much fun these past We've been doing
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 4: this for two and a half hoursat Yeah, this is
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 4: this has been this has been great, So thank you'
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 4: all all for having me. What I've got coming up.
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 4: My partner in crime, Alan Hawkins and I we are
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 4: wrapping up a documentary that we've been working on for
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 4: the last three years that traces the trajectory of a
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 4: certain tradition of alchemy from late antiquity into the Enlightenment.
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 4: Hopefully that we'll be done in April and we'll start
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 4: putting it in some film festivals and then release it properly.
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 4: We were in talks with a couple of different streamers,
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 4: and beyond that, I will be speaking at the Anthropology
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 4: of Consciousness conference. It's happening in Las Vegas from March
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 4: twenty ninth to April first, and I will be asking
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 4: the question is AI the new la uh? And you
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 4: might be surprised by my answers, So if any of
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 4: y'all are in the Las Vegas area, come see me.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: Awesome, very interesting on that idea.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 15: Thank you both very much, Ike PD that was an
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 15: amazing episode. I thank you all to the Rejects again.
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 15: You know, hopefully maybe one day in the future we
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 15: can continue this talk on more of his other stuff,
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 15: but I think that would be if you ever make
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 15: your way up to Jackson.
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 16: I'll I'll be sure to buy you a beer man, so.
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: I'll be there.
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll be there.
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 15: But uh yeah again, I thought this was amazing and
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 15: I can't really you know, I don't want to kind
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 15: of reiterate what Ike says, but I do think having
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 15: these discussions and having you guys on and talk about
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 15: this stuff really helps a lot for us to understand,
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 15: like maybe you know where some of our ideas are
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 15: coming from.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: This was an amazing show.
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 15: I really can't thank you guys enough, and all the
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 15: rejects and everybody in the chat that's what's up. I
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 15: appreciate it. And until the next one, everybody be well,
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 15: oh yeah, dog doll.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 16: Line four, there got eight up damn doll?
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 3: Are doggy doll?
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: Line four? There got eight up damn dolls? She are
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: you sting? Laugh like at old lad? He's simple than
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: laps and forty spar She like, I don't laugh, it's
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: never don't lass and don't stom where forty knt?
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 12: Uh?
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: How are you stuck?
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 3: All? Are you.
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: Looking too? Miss dons?
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 12: Alright?
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: Fine like Lacy Stuno, alight, let it be come humble
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: then you clips? Are you don't, don't.
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 3: How are you.
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: Fine? Like lacy stuff? Let it be coluble? Then you clips?
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: Are you shto where forty can go? A?
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 3: Sh alright?
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: Are you wait? The change? So sweet? Are you? Are
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: you beward the way? How must it become? The eclipse?
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: Hor attention pastors like eighty eight
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: To the optic nerve is now boarding Gate seventeen scheduled
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: to depart at times thirty am.