Latest / Pete Vs Anxiety!!!!! / The “Primal Five” Human Needs Everyone’s Ignoring — Until Now

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The “Primal Five” Human Needs Everyone’s Ignoring — Until Now · Pete Vs Anxiety!!!!!

• Peter: Welcome into another exciting episode of Pete for Exciting. My guest today is a clinical psychologist who helps people build sustainable self-care without burnout or guilt. Please welcome in Matthew Campbell. Matthew, welcome in. Pete: Ever wish you had someone to talk to anytime, anywhere, matter what you're going through? Meet PsychPAL, your 24-7 AI companion, designed to help you process your thoughts, calm your mind, and keep you moving forward. Chat anytime during a panic attack on a restless night or just when you need to vent. Prefer talking instead of typing? Try voice journaling. PsychPAL listens, transcribes, and truly understands. You can even upload screenshots of tough conversations, and it'll help you unpack how they made you feel. PsychPAL keeps life organized, too. Matthew Campbell: Hey, thanks for having me. Good to be here. Peter: So Matthew, why don't you tell everybody a little bit more about yourself? Give them a little feel for who you are. Matthew Campbell: Sure, sure. As you said, I'm a psychologist. I've been working in private practice for about 23 years. I was looking the other day. so, you know, I'm a psychologist by profession. I'm a husband and father of four, four boys. That's kind of maybe the most meaningful part. But yeah, so I do, I'm in psychology. peter: Show ⁓ Pete: It can add appointments to your calendar, track your mood, and even summarize your sessions for your therapist so you'll never lose progress. Plus, built-in crisis resources are always just one click away. It's a privacy-first, constantly evolving, made to complement your professional care, not replace it. Ready to try it out? Head over to the link in this episode and use my code, Pete, at checkout to get 20 % off your first month subscription to PsychPAL. PsychPAL, because your mind deserves a companion too. Matthew Campbell: And I appreciate you having me on. I work in a clinical setting, so I'm working with people on a variety of different issues they're coming in with. Anxiety is probably, I would say, the most frequent challenge issue that I work with people on. I have, along with Dr. Josh Semcov, put together a workbook. Pete: There we go. I think that's the one I like. We got it. We got it. Boom. Peter: Mm-hmm. Matthew Campbell: ⁓ You know, something that was a passion of mine, ⁓ you know, that came along due to my clinical work and learning ⁓ from those I worked with, you know, how essential taking care of our foundation is. And we titled it Our Primal Five, just, you know, focusing on some just basic essential human needs that... ⁓ that in today's world have become more challenging to ⁓ attend to and work on, but are really, really, really essential for our emotional functioning. Peter: I like the title though Primal Five is a really cool one. think it's a really great title. I it covers exactly what you're trying to do. So has psychology always been a big thing for you or is it something that you've kind of got into? Because a lot of people you find were doing something else and then get into this field or some people that are in the field are like starts like therapy, go into some like other different directions of things, you know. So what which is it, though? Have you have this always been something you've been passionate about all the time? Matthew Campbell: Thank you. Yeah, I was really lucky. I was really lucky because I didn't have to do a career transition, although that can be a great thing, I guess, if you're not finding fulfillment in what you're doing. But no, I was really, really fortunate. came from a family of very socially conscious. My mom is 91 and still works at a nonprofit agency. Yeah, so really sensitized to that at an early age. Peter: Yeah. That's awesome though. Matthew Campbell: Again, just lucky I went into undergrad and psychology was my major. And yeah, I just, I've loved it. I've absolutely loved it. It's very meaningful work. Peter: So there are any areas of psychology that really excite you? Because it's such a big topic. So is there anything like you like to specialize in, any kind of things you really get excited about? Like you start meeting people with different things. You're like, OK, they hit these certain subjects. You're like, ⁓ yeah, I'm ready for this one. I love this. Matthew Campbell: Well, absolutely. I actually love the variety that people present. really love. I would have a harder time, I think, being very specialized. That would be more of a challenge for me. know, we as humans are endlessly fascinating. And so getting to work with people, I mean, it's certainly an honor for for people to trust you. Peter: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Matthew Campbell: and work with you, but having different things and working with people is really, really fulfilling. I think if I was taking a cookbook approach and ⁓ dealing, know, working with people on the same thing day after day, that might burb me out. Peter: No, I hear you. That's why with this show, I try and find the most interesting people. Every I've had like this morning alone, we've had a lot of four different guests and you're the fifth one in the one I had before was a dominatrix. That's now a life coach. I was just like, yeah, you're to explain to me how we got from point A to point B on this subject. You're alone, you know. Matthew Campbell: That's not me. Peter: But you know, I'm the same way though. I like the variety of things. I try to keep it interesting, keep bringing different people all the time from different walks of life, holistically, or people that are on the clinical side like you're on, and things like that too. I like to keep it interesting just because it's just interesting to me too, because I'm always curious to learn new things. So why do you feel that we don't talk about our menthols enough? mean, everybody keeps trying to tell me we do, but I feel like we're not talking enough. Matthew Campbell: Right, you know, think it's, I think some of it's age related. think that younger folks are much more open. ⁓ Generally speaking, I don't think that's always the case, but I think generally speaking, those who grew up ⁓ with mental health ⁓ as a thing, as something that's attended to, think that has positive and negative effects, but I think that certainly one of the positives is more of an openness. Peter: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Matthew Campbell: But I also think, know, and to kind of, you know, my experience in terms of an increased acceptance, I live and practice in Oxford, Mississippi. ⁓ And when I came in here to Oxford and set up my practice, like I said, a little over 20 years ago, there were about, I think, five of us ⁓ of different, you know, PhDs, LPCs, ⁓ LCSWs. Peter: Okay. Matthew Campbell: different training backgrounds, but that were doing therapy in town. About six of us, and you had to really build a practice. We probably have, I would say 25 people maybe who do it full-time here in town now. A lot of people who do it part-time, and it's tough to refer people because people are so full with their client loads. Peter: Mm-hmm. Matthew Campbell: I definitely think there's been an increase in the acceptance of mental health care. I still think, however, to your point, I think that there is, I think there are a number of things. think that first of all, you have the general aspect of, you know, there's people who that's just soft, you know, and that's just, you know, kind of a weakness and maybe even culturally there's a resistance. And I also think that there's been a pushback. Peter: Mm-hmm. Matthew Campbell: ⁓ of late that perhaps too many things are being attributed to mental health problems. And I think that some people may perceive that it's shirking of responsibility, is my sense. Peter: Yeah, no, I get that, though. I feel like a lot of people use it as a scapegoat some ways, too. They're like, oh, they have mental health issues. But lot of people don't even know what those things are. Most people just think anxiety, depression and, you know, some of those other things like that are just it. that's if you really dig into it. There's so many other things that people like me and touch the surface level on. You know, if you get to like borderline personality disorder and you just keep going further, there's there's some pretty wild ones out there that will take you for a run for your money. The things that just people do it on a daily basis. And I think a lot of times when you talk to lot of people, I feel like a lot of them don't know enough, you know, in with the Internet. The problem is, that you have access to information, but are you getting access to the correct information? You know, then that's what you have to fight against, too. As you know, people are out there kind of Googling things, but then they're getting the wrong information and then the wrong information gets spread. And it's just it's a constant battle, honestly. Matthew Campbell: Oh, absolutely. I mean, absolutely. think that, and maybe, well, probably this kind of goes across the treatment areas and probably medicine as well, as I think you can have so much overlap between symptoms that it's so easy. If you just take a checklist approach and you say, well, I have X, Y, and Z, then you can become convinced you have a certain diagnosis. you know, I always tell people that Peter: Yeah. ⁓ huh. Yeah. Matthew Campbell: You know, the ⁓ last criteria for every ⁓ diagnostic category is that it's not otherwise ⁓ caused by X, Y, and Z issues. And so you always have to consider, is there something else that accounts for some? Peter: Yeah, yeah. Listen, I call I tell people to stop web and being basically because remember when that came out, everybody thought they had cancer and all these other weird things. Well, I think I got cancer based on what the reading is like. No, these are like symptoms that you would have that fall into that category. Doesn't mean you have it because, know, with BPD and borderline, they're so close together except for BPD is a little bit wider, you know, when it comes to the range of things that you're dealing with. think a lot of people get those mixed up a lot of times as well. And a lot of people don't even know what what borderline personality sort of even was, you know. Matthew Campbell: Yes. Peter: I know I didn't know at first when I started this show, I started learning more things and then I met people that had these different conditions. So I go research a little bit about them and I started exploring like a lot of really interesting avenues. ever since then, 300 interviews later, I've had a lot of people on here. We've talked about pretty much everything I can think of. And there's some other things I've never even heard of that have showed up recently too and things like that too. So it's always interesting when I get people to come in. because you're just curious to know what their stories are, the things they're dealing with, the way that they've been going about it. And I feel like a lot of people, when they start really talking about it, they get scrutinized because people don't know how to handle a lot of conversations, suicide being one of them, grief being another one of them. People are just not equipped for certain those conversations. Would you not agree? Matthew Campbell: ⁓ well, sure. Sure. think it's I mean, all of those are very, very difficult. And, know, in fairness, I think that, ⁓ you know, there's not one way to approach those. And it often depends on the person, ⁓ you know, and what what they're what they're looking for, what what would be helpful for them to hear. And even as someone who practices in this field. Peter: Mm-hmm. Matthew Campbell: You definitely learn that there's not ⁓ a cookie cutter one way approach. You know, it really has to be ⁓ done in such a way that is most useful to a person that they can hear best. And those are quite challenging. Peter: Yeah. So Matthew, I wanted to ask you though, you did mention you have kids. Do you have open conversations about mental health? Like emotionally regulating them, like explaining what some of the feelings are they're having? Is that an open conversation you guys have with them at all? Matthew Campbell: No. One thing you learn, you're going to learn it ⁓ by experience at some point is you are their dad. You are not their therapist. And, ⁓ you know, it's it's that is an exceptionally important role of being a father. And you don't need to try to be anything else. And so I think that. ⁓ Yeah, I think I mean, I only speaking for myself, but there's certainly been times that I've tried. Peter: Yeah. Matthew Campbell: You know, some of these things I used to joke that I even would tell my kids sometimes, you know, people pay me for this, you know, but of course I'm their dad and I will take that 10 times out of 10, but no, I don't impart much of that at home. Peter: Yeah. Yeah, is there reason? Do you suggest people have conversations early on given that the rates that suicide rates in younger gentlemen, 10 to 14 are on the rise? Do you think that it's maybe it's an open conversation they may need to start having or something similar like dialogue about it? Matthew Campbell: I mean, you know, I think that there are a lot of variables ⁓ at play there. And again, things are so individually dependent. ⁓ I definitely think the one thing without question would be some emotional literacy ⁓ and trying to help ⁓ with, you know, the acceptance ⁓ of different emotional experiences. ⁓ I think that that can be that can be quite helpful. Peter: Yeah. Matthew Campbell: But I also think we need to look at other variables that are at play and perhaps easiest to identify would be ⁓ media ⁓ and what impact that's having. So I definitely think that having ⁓ some emotional awareness is extremely important. think that creating an environment where it's okay for that to be reported or discussed, that's great. Peter: Mm-hmm 100 % Matthew Campbell: ⁓ But I also think that we just need to be really attentive to other things that are affecting kids these days. Peter: Yeah, social media definitely is one of them. Me and a good friend of mine, Uncle Jimmy, we had a discussion this past Wednesday. We get together every week and discuss things. And social media was the topic that we had picked. Now, during the interview, Jimmy and I were discussing during this conversation we were having, he had mentioned that he was like he pulled up some percentage numbers. I don't remember the exact percentages, but a lot of them were saying that kids reported saying that social media had a negative effect on them. Is this a concern for you though, with your children too? Because I know a lot of people get like always make fun of people for limiting their amount of how much they interact with the Internet. But that's a good thing, honestly, with the way social media is, the way that they're just connecting with who knows out there. I think it's a really good thing to limit the amount of time they spend on there to their age. They're an adult to make that decision for themselves. Because a lot of times, you know, when you get on the Internet, you don't know who you're interacting with, like roadblocks, for example, had that situation where they had a lot of predators that were secretly identity. basically in the game asking these younger kids questions and these kids don't know what they're looking at. They just know, hey, this is my friend asking me a question of where I'm from. You know what mean? Just things like that too. It's gotta be a scarier time now than when we were kids, man. Cause like we had AOL, that was our closest thing. half the time we spent most of the time outside hanging out. But nowadays you can't do that anymore. Now like most times you have to worry about somebody coming by and trying to snatch your kid. But now the internet is making it even worse because now You have all these people that have more access to these younger kids and things like that as well. And then what are we what are they watching out there? You know, because then they're sort of seeing these things and we're giving them wrong messages about things, you know. So you have somebody come on and start saying all these hateful things about women or, you know, I mean, these different skewed views on what is going on, you know, like what are they consuming these days? You know, it's my biggest concern, you know, and it really worries me, though, because ⁓ with them mixing in with all these hateful people and things like that. It's like they're still young. They don't know better. You know, they don't know what's going on out there. You know, and some of that stuff they don't need to be seeing a lot of that stuff. Matthew Campbell: Yeah, you used the word there. That's one of the, I mentioned our Primal Five, it's one of the pillars that we describe the five different areas as pillars. And you mentioned consumption and consumption in the workbook ⁓ as well as ⁓ an app that I've put together. That's a big one. Peter: Mm-hmm. Matthew Campbell: That's a that's a very very big one our consumption is our fuel our consumption affects us in every way and I think that We naturally think of consumption as physical consumption food and drink And any variety of physical consumptions, I guess you could say but but digital consumption is profoundly important ⁓ Whether it's the news which can be toxic ⁓ pornography, but then the other Peter: Yeah. Matthew Campbell: you know, has to do with the digital media, with social media, with video games as you described. And so there's a book that quite well known at this point, Jonathan Haidt ⁓ put out there, he wrote called The Anxious Generation. he, know, Dr. Haidt, he talks about social media in particular and how rates in teenagers ⁓ and particularly females has doubled. of suicidality, suicidal behavior, anxiety and depression really since the explosion of social media really. ⁓ So Dr. Height puts two hours of screen time as in his research what is found to be kind of the tipping point for ⁓ media, social media screen ⁓ exposure in ⁓ all the way up till 18 years old. And so that's. Peter: Yeah. Matthew Campbell: That's kind what we know or where we are right now is we really want to try to not go over two hours. Really the only group that didn't seem to have as strong as an effect is kids who are coming into it with a really high level of self-confidence. They don't seem to have quite the same negative effect. Peter: Yeah, because they have the high confidence level. They're not letting things bother them. You know, my concern would be the other side, the ones that have the low self-esteem and then they go to post something and then somebody just starts attacking them. Of any age range, mind you, at this point, because social media gives us that access, you know, and things like that, too. But, you know, I think that's a really great point he brought up, though, especially females, because think about it, all these different things that are on there, these sexual pictures that make these people, like sexualize these women. You know, what message are we sending to these young ladies? Like, this is what you're supposed to look like, get attention from boys when it really shouldn't be like that. It's more, you it should be more different factors than just what you're seeing on there, you know? And it's, it's to me at times, it's kind of frustrating because I have three daughters of my own and that was my biggest concern. It's like, what message are they getting, you know, while they're seeing this, you know? And I was one that like watched them, Liddy watched what they were doing on everything, including TikTok was one of them. When my oldest one was on there, she had put something up and I had a conversation with her. was like, you can't do that because, know, what the message you're sending out to people is, it's just not right. you can't be you can't do that because, you know, like you don't know who's watching these things. And that's the scary part of it all, depending on what it is, even the some of these other video games I've played. There's there's people you hear them say the most horrible things to these kids. And all they're doing is, hey, listen, I'm playing a game. This is cool. You know, I can talk to other people. Yeah, that shouldn't be happening because some of these people shouldn't be allowed to talk to anybody under the age 18 because the things they're saying to them are just horrible. it's quite disgusting at times because there was a post where I was watching this girl had a video where she was excited. Oh, I'm getting ready for my prom or something. She was getting ready for some kind of dance. Then these guys in the comments are saying the most disgusting things ever. I'm like, you're old enough to be like grown men. are saying things to this girl like, hey, your dress will look good on my floor. And it's like, no, we can't allow this. And then when it was like brought to like the social media people, they're like, oh, what do want us to do? Police your own site. What do you mean? You can't allow these kinds of things to be happening. What are you doing? You're letting these poor girls get, you know, being talked to by these grown men in a weird way. That's not good for them. Matthew Campbell: It can attract the worst. Absolutely. mean, anytime, you know, just with human behavior, anytime that we have anonymity and we can hide behind a screen, you're going to get the worst of behavior oftentimes. And so I think that with kids, as difficult as it is, it's difficult for a variety of reasons to really monitor that one is the amazing constant accessibility that they have to these things. You know, they also have grown up with them. And so for someone who's in my generation, obviously we can be more, I've got you by several years, but you know, I have most of my life was spent without this level of technology. And so, you know, I have a reference point that's much more of a reference point than particularly young folks these days is that's what they grew up with. Peter: Yeah. Matthew Campbell: I was talking to a kid about it who was having really negative effects. You you got the comparison effect, you have how much time's being spent on it, you have, you know, the FOMO aspect, ⁓ you know, and some of these things that I just, I can't comprehend is why they have maps that show where you are. That's ⁓ just bizarre to me on every level. But ⁓ nevertheless, speaking with this young person and talking about Peter: Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. Mm-hmm. Matthew Campbell: they had, they acknowledge negative effects from social media and I asked them, know, they had full recognition of that and they said, that's all I know. You know, it's all I know is social media and access and I know it has a negative effect, but I still am afraid I'm not gonna know something or miss out. And that's, you know, I thought that was really insightful, you know, when it's all you know, doing something different and scary. Peter: You know, it is, though, because you're getting to talk to the youth as well. So you're getting a better mindset of what their what their thought process is going through these things. Well, I know that it's bad for me. But at the same time, that FOMO kicks in the fear of missing out, basically, you know. And then if you think about it with all the different apps and all the dings and like I literally turn my phone on silent most days because my phone goes off constantly because I post my stuff everywhere. But I don't I don't stay on it long enough for a lot of them. think TikTok is the most active one I am on, though. But that's it, really. But you know, got to you get a lot of those like 10,000 different invites. ⁓ you're going to miss on this. You're going to miss out on that. You know, and it's so hard to balance all that kind of stuff, especially for them. You know, it's like they're trying to be a part of the in they want to fit in with their friends. But then, ⁓ I'm missing out on things. And now the fear of fear missing out is coming through. And, know, and like you said, though, they said they know it's a negative effect, but still they're coming back for more. And it's like. Matthew Campbell: Yeah. Peter: It's like, oh no, you know, it's hard though, because, you know, with all these different apps now, it's like, you know, trying to monitor what they're doing on the internet these days is just next to impossible because there's so many different ways to get to someone. Snapchat, TikTok, Instagram, X, think, honestly, should just be completely cut off to anybody under the age 18, honestly. Anybody that's under 18 and that's not X should not be there because there's just things on there they post. It's just like a it's a free fall man. It's a scary place to be and I'm an adult. I'm 40 years old. I can tell you right now. Even I'm like, nope, I'm good. I don't want nothing to do with this. I'm out of here. Matthew Campbell: Yeah, I mean, I think that it's, think that the film, ⁓ Social Dilemma or The Social Dilemma, you know, they really did a great job of pointing out that we are, ⁓ you know, we are the product, we are not the consumer with social media. We are being consumed by it. And many years ago before social media became such a, Peter: Mm-hmm. Matthew Campbell: I mean, it's such a part of life ⁓ for us. I always thought of casinos as being the best at applying psychological principles to manipulate human behavior, to keep us at the tables, to do all sorts of different things, to really encourage betting. And because obviously the longer you bet, the more they're going to win. ⁓ And so, but they have been far outpaced by social media. I mean, they have us down. Peter: Mm-hmm. Matthew Campbell: I one time did an experiment ⁓ of sorts. I logged out of YouTube and so, you know, logged out of everything basically on my computer and I got on to back onto YouTube without, like I said, being logged in and I, my little experiment was I punched in or I typed in four of my favorite songs by different artists and I typed those in and I, because I wanted to see what the algorithm would do. with that information and it was frightening ⁓ how well they nailed me. ⁓ And I'm not even talking about the same genre. They hit me on some things, just nailed what I like in genres that I hadn't even looked up. And so this stuff is, we are putty in its hands, really have to limit ⁓ our time and exposure. Peter: Yeah. No, I think you have a really good point there. do. know, a lot of people need to really limit their time. do. I myself I do because I pull away and I'll I'll call it unplugging. So I'll turn my phone off at a certain point. I'll just turn the notifications off and I'll go do something and then we go outside or I'll go I'll go, you know, read a book or something. Something else productive other than trying to be there because, know, that like I said, that whole phone mode thing will start kicking in. But if I can't hear the notifications, I don't even notice it. And then people are like, well, where are you at? Anywhere but here, apparently. you know, and it's it's so much better because it'll it'll mess you big time. I know it did for me for a while, like when my depression was really bad. ⁓ Yeah. I'd sit there and do school and I'm just like, no, I can't do it anymore. I can't do it anymore. I'm done. I can't. So like unplugging. was the greatest experience ever. I literally didn't experience myself. I did a five day experiment. I off social media for five days. I literally recorded the show. Did that. Matthew Campbell: Mm-hmm. Peter: That's it. The only contact I had was maybe a few messages to somebody talking to my guests or whatever, because I was doing a live show at the time. So, you know, I only did the live episodes after that cut off. And I just went and did something else. Watch a movie, did anything other than be anywhere on a social media, not even play a game online for five days. And it was the greatest experience of my life ever, because I didn't feel like I was missing out on anything, you know, with all those different app invites. Oh, you're missing this. You're missing that. You know, and the people I need to get a hold of me could get a hold of me, obviously, because, know. Do not disturb is a great thing on your phone. You can put it on. So only people's calls you need to come through and come through. You know, I did anything but any of those things like be on social media, play around on there, play games online. I literally just kind of unplugged from it, just did some other things. Read a book. I actually ended up reading a breast cancer memoir for one guest I had on the show. So I ended up reading her memoir, you know, so was reading that while then I watched a couple movies, went took the dogs for a walk, you know, stuff like anything I could do. But those things have fallen. It was the greatest thing ever, you know. And now when I like I have conversations with people, I'll go like this, take my phone and put a screen down so I can't even see it. So somebody starts talking to me. Doesn't matter what I'm doing. If it's not like something I need to do right that moment, I literally put it down screen side down. I don't even look at it the rest of the time. I'm talking to somebody until the conversation ends, because I've noticed that if I don't, I don't pay attention to what they're saying. And that's just not fair to me. Like, you know, if you're having a conversation, somebody's right in front of you. You know, you might as well, you know, engage them. They're sitting right there, you know, that's very rude not to pay attention. So unless I'm doing something that really is important, like something I had to do, finish really, hey, listen, can you give me a quick second? Let me finish this. And then the screen goes down right away. And then after that, I don't even sometimes I'll even get my phone, even sitting there, walk off and do some other stuff. know, it's so much great. It's so great because I don't give it that control anymore. You know, it doesn't have my doesn't have my full attention. Unless it's actually something important, you know, or, you know, things like that, or somebody's messaging me and, you know, I'm talking to a friend about something else. You know, it's the only time I'm really there. But other than that, I just kind of like I turn it on silent. A lot of times I forget it's on silent sometimes too. I'm like, oops, sorry, my bad. I missed out, you know, and like, you know, like I said, though, if it's on silent, though, there's ways to get a hold of me if people really need to hold me. But it's like, obviously, it wasn't that important if I'm not getting the message. You know what mean? Like, I don't have that fear. Missing anything, you know, because I don't let it control me like a lot of people do and that's the hardest part, too know, like, you know, I know recently they were talking about like video game addictions I'm like that's real you seen these people I stream some of these guys they're on there for like eight nine hours a day like a day doing this and I'm just there's no way I'm like this is insane. Like you guys are crazy like all the time Matthew Campbell: I've worked with people who it's been more than that. Yeah, it's they are addictive. But, you know, I think that to the point of what you were describing about when you took a sabbatical of sorts, you know, off of the media sources, ⁓ one of the things like, again, just like the primal aspects is that, you know, we are made to do certain things like our body, our world has changed so much ⁓ in terms of, you know, Peter: Mm-hmm. Matthew Campbell: technology and science, all these different things that in many ways are wonderful. But what it has done is taken us away from these ways that our bodies are the same as our ancestors. They're made to do certain things. ⁓ But these other things have, ⁓ they make it a lot easier to not do those things. Our ancestors had to do these things to survive. We have to choose to do them. And so was thinking about it when you were describing that as, know, one of my sons, ⁓ Peter: Mm-hmm. Matthew Campbell: He went to a camp a few summers ago and you know the camp they turn in their their phone when they get there and they're in a cabin and you know doing activities outside with other kids their age and I just remember my you know he came back after that week week and a half and he was just great mood excited feeling good he even made the Peter: Mm-hmm. Matthew Campbell: the statement when I picked him up and we got back to the house, he said, I'm just, not playing video games anymore. And he had benefited, he had lived in a way that we were made to be, that he was around other people, was outside, he was moving, he had a consistent bedtime and wake time. And he didn't have, he was consuming, bringing in good stuff. ⁓ But I just thought it was such a great example, because then he gets back. Peter: Yeah. Matthew Campbell: to his real world, his daily life, and then those difficulties come in, the challenges is that all those buddies now are playing video games today, and that's a way to connect with them in a very easy, convenient way. And so he's up there, and of course that can be hours and such. And so yeah, it's more challenging. We have a lot of things that disrupt our sleep. We have a lot of... Peter: Mm-hmm. Matthew Campbell: sugary processed foods that feel a lot better to eat immediately. We weren't made for that. We have ⁓ a lot of times that we spend indoors in climate controlled environments and cushy chairs. ⁓ There's so many things that make it more challenging. Even what you and I are doing right here, we can contact each other on these different video approaches. Peter: Yes, yeah, yeah Matthew Campbell: But we're not sharing ⁓ the same space with humans as much because honestly in the moment in this present moment you don't have to. But we do pay the price for that in the long term. Peter: Yeah, yeah, you know, and it's hard, though, because, like I said, it's friends are there, though. Hang on. I get the whole thing. You want to hang out the boys, you want to do something. But it's like you got to set limits for yourself, though, too. You know, that's the hardest part. It's like you get so like caught into these games. They get you going for hours doing whatever the task is at hand, you know. But then it's like you don't take time to go outside and enjoy air and ground and, you know, you know, don't go outside, touch the grass. I know people say a lot of terms for gamers. We like to say touch grass, you know, touch grass today because these people get, you know, we call them super sweaty and all these other weird terms we all come up with. But, you know, I make it an effort to go outside, though, at least for an hour a day and sit out in the sun because I'm here in Texas. So it's nice, know, and just be outside for a bit and sort of the fresh air, you know, and things like that, too. Or walk the dogs and things like that is what I would do normally. Matthew Campbell: Right. Mm-hmm. Peter: ⁓ or go for a walk, you know, it's great because I have diabetes. So like just a walk around the block or two, it helps like, you know, makes a significant change. Like I'll check my numbers, see where I'm at, grab some water and just go out. I'll pop an earpiece or whatever, listen to some music, listen to another podcast. Whatever I'm doing, I'm doing something actively. I go to the gym regularly now too. It's a great stress reliever. And I love it, you know, because I'm on my way to 285 deadlifting. So I'm at 210 now. So I'm working my way there a little. So I'm setting goals of doing other things besides, you know, but I bulk record the show. And then from there, the rest of my week is pretty much open for me to do whatever else I need to do. And I focus on doing something else other than this. So like I'll go through the recording. I'll go through the editing process usually on the weekend, but during the week, the rest of the week, I usually work an overnight job anyway. So I'm up all night. So I'll prioritize my sleep now versus before I wasn't doing it. then people could notice they were like, Pete, are you okay? Yeah, I'm fine. I was lying to people constantly about it because I wasn't, I wasn't sleeping at all. I was recording this show five days a week. Now I've got a different schedule set up and makes more sense. I prioritize everything else, you know, get it done. And then the rest of the week, I prioritize my self care, you know, like I'll go outside, enjoy the weather, you know, do something else. I've got a whole stack of books I've been working my way through. I'm currently reading a non-released copy of a book right now that I got an advanced copy of. So I've been really enjoying it, too, you know, things like that. So I'm trying to do something else other than be on any kind of social media app, a video game or anything else, you know. And I try to go outside more often than, you know, get in the sun a little bit, you know, because the fresh air helps you ground and things like that, too. You know, since I started the show. I've taken a big change of way I look at things like I did a bunch of self reflecting this past year and looked at the things I've done except in my own fault and things, you know, and it's changed the way I interact with people like my daughters and I didn't have a great relationship since me and my wife, my ex are are split up and they live with her. You know, I my only way to connect with them is right now is through, you know, we text each other because they're in another state. But, you know, I text him, but I don't overload him. You know what I mean? Like we we we have a conversation for a little bit and I'll. We'll walk away from the conversation and we'll come back to it later. But I don't like, I don't sit there and prioritize, you know, being on my phone as much as possible, you know, but to talk to them. Okay. Priority there. But other than that, I'll be out doing like something else and try and get out and see the world. You know, even if it's just sitting at the park and just letting the air, just fill the air and everything else, you know, I try and do more things, more active, be more active for myself, you know, because, you know, since I'm diabetic anyways, you know, it's, good for me to get the exercise and all these other things. So I have all these other challenges I deal with too. So I do a lot of juggling of things. But you know, when you use the thing, you mentioned food was an interesting topic because we got into that conversation with somebody actually to guess one of them. We were talking about the things they put in your food these days. And she and I had gotten to a whole hour long conversation about this whole thing. It's just horrible if you think about the things they're putting in there and all the stuff they're adding in there and you know, and how sugar is really addictive, too. And it's loaded in a lot of these stuff. Like if you look at like Mountain Dew, go look at a bottle, man, because where's that now? It's like 79 grams of sugar. ⁓ that's That's a lot of sugar to be putting in your system there. I was like, you you watch these people consuming at a rapid rate and you're just like, oh my God, this is insane. Like how much of that they're drinking and stuff like that. But once you cut out some of that stuff, you'll notice the difference. Like, you know, I did another experiment where I stopped even entertaining fast food for a week and I tried it again just one time. And I was like, no, I don't like that feeling anymore. I could do healthier options at home. Like, OK, so whatever I'm craving, OK, I won't crave tacos. So I went. And I made it a mission to go out and make my own food, go to the store, get the items and come back and make it myself versus going to get it somewhere already pre-made and already notice the changes. Right. I felt a lot better. My mood's better. My mental health was better. You know, and a lot of people don't realize a lot of those things affected as well. You know, like I was getting I'm getting more sleep now because I prioritize that as well because I did have a guest come on. She's actually works at the FBI. She's a sleep doctor, but she was giving me hell about it, too. She's like, you need to sleep more. And she's like, I'm serious. She's like on the camera giving me a hard time. And rightfully so, she should have because I wasn't, I wasn't taking care of myself. But now I prioritize my self care and things like that too. And know, and stuff like that as well because it's important for people to do that. Matthew Campbell: Well, and I think that, you know, with what you were saying, again, broadly speaking, when we focus on the short term, you know, what kind of feels best right now, whether it's, you know, the minimized pain, maximized pleasure, when we're based on that, or when our behavior is really emotionally driven, that's where we get into trouble. Peter: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Matthew Campbell: You know, that's where we're gonna we're gonna have a hard time and these things that you were just describing whether it was your sugar intake You know these different things your sleep You said something I think you were referring to fast food and you were saying, know, you think you stopped it. I think you said five to seven days Mm-hmm. Well Right and then and then what you said and was really really important Peter: Yeah, I took a week off from it just to see what the the changes of all for me. Matthew Campbell: is that then when you reintroduced it after that time, it tasted different, you didn't like it. And that's one of the challenges that we have with self care. These basics or the foundations is that we are so accustomed to being depleted. We are so accustomed to feeling this way. After all, all we have to compare our experience or how we're doing is what we have experienced. We can't compare it to someone else's like how it felt for them. Peter: Mm-hmm. Matthew Campbell: We can't know that. So the thing is without being healthy in one of these or more, hopefully more of these areas, we don't really know. We don't really fully appreciate being sleep deprived if that's our normal. We don't really appreciate having a processed food diet all the time. None of us are gonna be perfect. I mean, we're gonna have that every once in a while and that's just part of it. Peter: Yeah. Oh, yeah, no, I get that. I love how you add that in, too, because we're not saying that we're saying, you know, it's OK to consume it once in a while. But, you know, paying really close attention to what you're intaking is a really good thing, too, though, because you just notice the changes of how you feel differently, you know, you choose water over sodas. You'll feel a hell of a lot different after a little bit of time may take a little bit, but you'll feel a lot better. You'll notice that your energy levels go up and you don't crash as much. and things like that, too. You know, and with the God, don't say you get started with energy drinks. I had a really bad, really bad consumption of those for a while, too. And it was like every day I'd have one and people were like, yeah, I think you need to cut down a little bit. So and I eventually cut some of those out, too. You know, I'll have them once in a while if I need a little pick me up or whatever. But, you know, I I've reduced the consumption amount of what I was doing because I was I was having a real bad. Really bad run with those. was having like every day, maybe twice a day because like I said, I wasn't sleeping. So I'm trying to look for something to give me that boost, you know, and things like that. And it was like my caffeine consumption was outrageous at the time. But, you know, since then, I've cut back on it. Now I'm sleeping more. I'm replacing the caffeine with sleep and the sleep's helping more. And I'm feeling better. And people are noticing I feel better, you know, and things like that, too. So it's been a lot of a lot of things that I'm learning along the way as I go. But it's it's for the better, though. Matthew Campbell: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. mean, and the more we can stick with it, the more we realize what it feels to live in a way that fits with what we're made, how we're made. And I think that a lot of times people can be a little overly judgmental ⁓ of, know, because these are things that, you know, may not know all the details or what can help and things like that. But we know these things, know, ⁓ sunlight, sleet. Peter: Mm-hmm. Matthew Campbell: social connection, moving our bodies, watching what we put in our minds bodies. We understand those. And so I think that sometimes people can be judgy when people aren't doing them. But the reality again is that we have so many choices in front of us all the time. And just being humans, if we're not really intentional, if we're not really effortful, Peter: Mm-hmm. Matthew Campbell: We're going to take the short-term option. We're going to push that easy button. And there are more easy buttons now than there have ever been. So yeah, it takes a lot of intention and lot of effort to make decisions that are going to have a huge effect on us, positive effect in the long Peter: Definitely. So Matthew, before we start wrapping up this episode, ⁓ I'm going to ask you two questions. I'll make these two questions. It's been really fun. OK, so the first question for you, bud, all right, is if your mental health had a song, what would you say that song would be? Matthew Campbell: All right. that's a one. That's a tough one. ⁓ would my mental health be? Well, know, it's gonna be something from Springsteen, because that's my guy. ⁓ You know, the most, ⁓ say this, the most emotionally resonant song ⁓ his, it actually ⁓ featured in the recent film, was My Father's House. ⁓ Peter: This is always a fun question for people. Okay, okay, Bruce is good. Matthew Campbell: But you know, I hate to tag that one for myself because it's a depressing morose song, although it's a really good one. Peter: Yeah, no, no, you know, it's always interesting, though, when you ask me that question, because music is a big thing for me. So like, that's usually what I'm doing. If I'm listening to something, I'm listening to music, all sorts of kinds, everything else. So I thought it was a fun question somebody else had asked me when I had interviewed them on the show. So I was like, you know what, I'm going to take a run with this and see what happens. And so far, we've had some pretty fun responses with it, though. But my next question for you in the reason I start this podcast was that if you could break the stigma about metal. Now, when I ask you this question, I'm asking you from the aspect of the What is the one thing you want people to stop believing? Matthew Campbell: about mental health. Peter: that anything incorrect that you feel like they're, you know, like the stigma that people have about it. Like what is one thing you want to tell people? Hey, listen, this may not be right, but this is true. Matthew Campbell: gosh, I think that the main thing, your podcast is Pete versus anxiety. ⁓ really, ⁓ I would ⁓ the misconception that I would want people to, or would want to address, would want to be different is that these things aren't choices. And we do make choices with our behaviors, but oftentimes, maybe especially with anxiety, people treat it like a logic problem. They treat it as if it's something that a person with anxiety is choosing to do these things, right? They're choosing to be anxious. They get on an airplane and they're choosing that feeling. The reality is people with anxiety, broadly speaking, they know that these are low probability things. Like someone with obsessive-compulsive disorder, the great majority know that this is not logical, that this is not actually, you know. Peter: Mm-hmm. Matthew Campbell: making them safe or doing whatever. But that emotional drive has such a profound effect on us. that these, you know, so I think a lot of times people can make it harder for folks with anxiety because, you know, like the classic advice, don't worry, you know, I've never thought of that before, you know, but there's this aspect of it where it's like, this is an intentional thing. Like I'm logically deducing this. No, it's an Peter: Exactly. Yeah. Matthew Campbell: emotionally driven, very challenging thing and definitely we can improve it but if it were only as simple as a math problem. Peter: Matthew, I absolutely love that because that's what I tell people a lot of times to. People are always like, hey, calm down. Well, that's great. I'm glad that's advice. Great advice, but this is not how it works. you can tell people that don't understand it versus people that get it because when that response comes out, it's, know, things like that. Well, Matthew, thank you so much for coming to hang out with me, man. I really appreciate it. had a really great time with you. Before I start signing off, did you want to let people know where they can find you? If anybody's in the Mississippi area that might want to reach out to you, do want to plug your website for them? Matthew Campbell: Sure, why didn't I think of that? Well, sure, yeah. ⁓ Just in so far as the workbook and the app, we're going to release focusing on, ⁓ you know, again, our Primal 5. And that's actually the website, our Primal 5 with the number 5.com. you know, we're finishing up touching up that website where, well, you know, you can can subscribe to the newsletter, you know, obviously the Amazon link for the workbooks there, the app link will be there. We'll have a quiz. Peter: ⁓ yeah, definitely. Matthew Campbell: ⁓ you know, kind of helping people get a sense of where they are in taking care of these basic aspects to get our functioning ⁓ put us on the strongest foundation possible. Peter: Well, thank you so much again, Matthew. I appreciate you coming to hang out with me today, man. I had a really great time. Did you have any final last words? Anything you want to say last to the people before we start signing out of this thing? Matthew Campbell: Well, what we know to do and the ease of doing it are two very different things. And so, you know, that's what I'm trying to help with. ⁓ That this is such a worthwhile thing. And just because we know it doesn't mean we do it. But I would encourage people to at least take one aspect of these and just try to improve, try to improve and see what it is like, see how it can be to live in the way we're supposed to. Peter: love it. Thank you so much again, guys. And with that being said, we're going to wrap up this episode of Pete versus anxiety. You guys don't find me on Pete versus anxiety. I'm an ex all the way down to TikTok. I'm on Spotify all the way down to Pandora radio. And as I always say, it costs nothing. Absolutely not to be kind to somebody. One kind act you can do can save someone's life or hell, you can make their day. I'm Pete versus anxiety sign off saying, don't ask how your day is today. Say, hey, how's your mental health?