Latest / Speaking of Meaning / Best Moments: Why Great Ideas Don’t Matter If You Can’t Communicate Them | John Zimmer

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Best Moments: Why Great Ideas Don’t Matter If You Can’t Communicate Them | John Zimmer · Speaking of Meaning

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SPEAKER_01: If somebody's listening right now and they're asking themselves,
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SPEAKER_01: why should I worry about public speaking?
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SPEAKER_01: I don't have to speak in public.
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SPEAKER_01: What would you tell them?
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SPEAKER_00: I think even if you're not speaking at major conferences,
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public speaking could involve speaking to five of your
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colleagues at an important
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SPEAKER_00: team meeting.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think it's an important skill to learn because of something that
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SPEAKER_00: the former chairman of the Chrysler Car Company in the United States,
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SPEAKER_00: Lee Iacocca said,
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SPEAKER_00: he said,
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SPEAKER_00: you can have great ideas,
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SPEAKER_00: but if you can't get your ideas across,
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SPEAKER_00: your ideas aren't going to get you anywhere.
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SPEAKER_00: And I meet people all the time in what I do.
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SPEAKER_00: And
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SPEAKER_00: Brilliant people,
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SPEAKER_00: people who are motivated,
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SPEAKER_00: people who are excited about what they're doing,
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SPEAKER_00: people who have fantastic ideas.
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But if they can't find a way to communicate these ideas in a
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way that is clear,
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SPEAKER_00: that is memorable,
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SPEAKER_00: that is persuasive to move people to take some kind of action,
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SPEAKER_00: then their ideas won't go as far as they might have gone otherwise.
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Have you met leaders who struggle with communication and
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creating a compelling and
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SPEAKER_01: inspiring message?
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SPEAKER_00: Sure, all the time.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's not because they're not intelligent or not capable of it.
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In some cases,
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it's because they've just learned bad habits over the years.
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In others,
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it's because they're so busy that they don't have the time to
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devote
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SPEAKER_00: about the presentation or the speech that they're going to give.
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SPEAKER_00: Everybody faces challenges.
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SPEAKER_00: I still face challenges as a speaker.
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SPEAKER_00: I find I'm always learning.
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SPEAKER_00: You get to the top of one mountain and then you realize that
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SPEAKER_00: that there are higher mountains to climb.
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SPEAKER_00: And so it's a lifelong skill.
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SPEAKER_00: But the good news is that if people are prepared to work at it,
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SPEAKER_00: even just to improve incrementally every day,
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SPEAKER_00: every week,
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SPEAKER_00: then over time,
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SPEAKER_00: they can become very compelling speakers.
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SPEAKER_01: We try to influence others.
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SPEAKER_01: My question to you is, is manipulation related to persuasion?
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it is related and it's funny I was doing a training yesterday
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and I got the
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question about when we were talking about the use of emotion
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the question was well
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isn't this just manipulating your audience and I said here's
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the way I think about
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it the difference between persuasion and manipulation
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persuasion is about getting
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SPEAKER_00: to do the audience to do something that is
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Good For Them That Is In Their Interest Or That Is In The
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General Interest Of
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Society For Example Something Positive And There Can Be Also A
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Benefit For The
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Speaker There's Nothing Wrong With A Mutual Benefit Situation A
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Win Win Situation I
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Think Manipulation I Think Of That Is You're Trying To Get The
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Audience To Do
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Something That Is Either Against Their Interests Or That Is A
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Bad Thing To Do I
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SPEAKER_00: Mean You Know Politicians
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SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, they manipulate people all the time.
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SPEAKER_00: Not all politicians.
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SPEAKER_00: Politicians also persuade.
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SPEAKER_00: But that's an example where you can see manipulation.
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SPEAKER_00: So there's clear overlap because with both persuasion and manipulation,
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SPEAKER_00: you're trying to get other people to do something.
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SPEAKER_00: The question is, what's the end result?
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SPEAKER_00: What's the benefit or the detriment that occurs?
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SPEAKER_00: That's how I think about it.
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SPEAKER_01: Then intention plays a major role.
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SPEAKER_01: In my opinion, a huge role.
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SPEAKER_01: What is the intention?
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SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
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Do you need to be able to influence others and learn these
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techniques in order for
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SPEAKER_01: you to also uncover or spot when somebody is trying to manipulate you?
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I think it definitely makes you more aware when you're in the
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opposite situation,
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SPEAKER_00: when somebody's trying to influence you.
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SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of people have an instinct for it.
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SPEAKER_00: Did you ever read,
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SPEAKER_00: what was it,
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Malcolm Gladwell's book Blink this idea about how first
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impressions are often the
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correct ones like there's something that it just doesn't feel
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right in a case like
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that I think a lot of people have that sense but if you study
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rhetoric and
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persuasion and then you can also get into this whole field of
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cognitive biases and
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SPEAKER_00: things like that then it's easier to spot
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SPEAKER_01: So basically our gut feeling plays a major role as well?
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SPEAKER_00: I think so.
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SPEAKER_01: I think so.
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SPEAKER_01: That's very interesting.
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SPEAKER_01: I like that, the whole idea about intention.
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SPEAKER_01: If we try to understand the basic of persuasion, where does it begin?
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SPEAKER_01: Is it a mindset?
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SPEAKER_01: Is it a skill?
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SPEAKER_01: Is it deeper than that?
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SPEAKER_00: I think it's a couple of things.
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SPEAKER_00: I think
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SPEAKER_00: Belief plays a big role in it.
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You know,
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first belief in yourself,
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belief in the idea that you are selling as well.
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Many times people will say to me,
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how do I give a presentation about an idea I don't believe in?
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SPEAKER_00: And I'm always honest with them.
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SPEAKER_00: I say, it's not easy.
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SPEAKER_00: It's not easy.
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SPEAKER_00: Beyond that,
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SPEAKER_00: then we get into the different techniques of persuasion,
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SPEAKER_00: and we go back 2,300 years to ancient Greece,
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SPEAKER_00: and Aristotle,
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SPEAKER_00: and rhetoric,
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SPEAKER_00: and the whole basis of persuasion,
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SPEAKER_00: logos,
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SPEAKER_00: ethos,
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SPEAKER_00: and pathos.
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SPEAKER_00: And for people who don't know what these things are,
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Even if you've never heard these terms,
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you know instinctively what they are.
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SPEAKER_00: Logos essentially is persuasion by logic.
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SPEAKER_00: It's things like the coherence of your presentation,
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SPEAKER_00: facts,
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SPEAKER_00: statistics,
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SPEAKER_00: data,
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SPEAKER_00: very left brain thinking.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm a lawyer by training, so I'm very logos oriented.
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SPEAKER_00: Everything has to be very structured and clear for me.
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The second pillar,
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ethos,
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is persuasion by virtue of the speaker's personal credibility.
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SPEAKER_00: Things like the person's reputation,
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SPEAKER_00: authority,
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SPEAKER_00: expertise,
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SPEAKER_00: that kind of thing,
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SPEAKER_00: that can help influence.
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SPEAKER_00: Also, part of ethos...
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SPEAKER_00: These things I mentioned,
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SPEAKER_00: reputation,
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SPEAKER_00: authority,
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SPEAKER_00: expertise,
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SPEAKER_00: you build these up by living your life,
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SPEAKER_00: by going through your career.
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SPEAKER_00: And if you're junior in your career,
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there's a chance that you're not going to have as much
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reputation or authority as
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SPEAKER_00: somebody more senior.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's just life.
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SPEAKER_00: You build it up over time.
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SPEAKER_00: But you can also have an influence on your own
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Ethos As Seen By The Audience By Your Stage Presence Are You
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Looking At People Are
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SPEAKER_00: You Pausing Are You Doing All Of These Nice Gestures On Stage And Not
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you know you're not looking down you're not staring at the
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slides that makes a
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difference as well so there's logos ethos and then the third
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pillar is pathos
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interesting word comes from the Greek word related to both
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emotion and suffering
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and so we get words today in English and other languages like
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sympathy empathy
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pathology pathogen all of these relate to pathos which is
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persuasion by emotion
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SPEAKER_00: storytelling
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Humor Surprise That kind of thing So those are the three main
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pillars And there's a
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fourth pillar though Which I think is important And it's less
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well known It's
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SPEAKER_00: called Kairos Mm-hmm
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SPEAKER_00: Kairos is an interesting word.
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SPEAKER_00: The Greeks have two words for the concept of time.
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SPEAKER_00: There's chronos,
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SPEAKER_00: and we get words like chronology or chronological from chronos,
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SPEAKER_00: which is the time we're most familiar with.
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SPEAKER_00: The hours going by in a day or the months going by in a year.
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SPEAKER_00: But then there's the second concept of time,
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SPEAKER_00: kairos,
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SPEAKER_00: which means the appropriate time,
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SPEAKER_00: the right time to make an argument,
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SPEAKER_00: the right time to sell an idea,
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SPEAKER_00: and also the right time to use emotion,
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SPEAKER_00: the right time to use facts and logic.
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SPEAKER_00: So all of this plays a role in persuasion.
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SPEAKER_01: That's very interesting.
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SPEAKER_01: So timing is also important.
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SPEAKER_00: Sure sure you often you often see you know an event might happen um
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Let's say there's a severe drought or flooding or an unexpected
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weather event and
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SPEAKER_00: people who are very concerned about global warming and climate change,
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SPEAKER_00: they might think,
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SPEAKER_00: well,
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SPEAKER_00: in light of what has just happened,
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now is a good time once again to remind people about the
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importance of taking
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SPEAKER_00: certain steps to help reduce the impact of global warming.
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And do you need all four to be influential or can you get away
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with one or two?
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SPEAKER_00: No, I think you need them all.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously Kairos underpins everything.
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SPEAKER_00: You want to bring the right argument forth at the right time.
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Then you've got the other three pillars,
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the logic,
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the credibility and the emotion.
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SPEAKER_00: And the way I like to think of those three is as follows.
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I want my credibility in the eyes of the audience to be as high
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as possible.
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SPEAKER_00: I want them to think he knows what he's talking about.
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He's really thinking about what might be valuable to me and
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he's going to give me
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SPEAKER_00: some value for my time.
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SPEAKER_00: I want it to be as high as possible.
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The logic,
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the logos and the pathos,
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the emotion,
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these are more variable.
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SPEAKER_00: These are more variable.
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SPEAKER_00: You want,
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SPEAKER_00: depending on who the audience is,
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SPEAKER_00: what you're talking about,
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SPEAKER_00: what the situation is,
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SPEAKER_00: you're going to want to use more of one and less of the other.
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SPEAKER_00: In the typical business presentation,
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SPEAKER_00: you are almost always going to have more logic,
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SPEAKER_00: more logos than pathos.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's fine.
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SPEAKER_00: But don't leave the emotion out altogether.
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SPEAKER_00: Because,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: people should be excited if you're selling a new product or service,
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SPEAKER_00: there should be some level of emotion there.
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SPEAKER_00: You can tap into emotion.
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SPEAKER_00: It's like a recipe.
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You want to have the ingredients in the right amounts and
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that's what really makes
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SPEAKER_00: the best impact.
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So when I hear you say storytelling,
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emotion is important even in business presentations.
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SPEAKER_00: Storytelling is huge and it still surprises me how
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Little It Is Used It's Being Used More These Days Than It Was
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But There's Still So
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Much More Potential For It And The Reason Is That Stories Are
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Something That Are
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SPEAKER_00: Fundamental To The Human Experience I Mean Stories Have Been Around
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SPEAKER_00: I think it was conducted by Stanford University and The Economist
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the magazine The Economist and they put people that well first
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of all they put
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people in fMRI imaging and they studied the brain when the
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person was listening to
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SPEAKER_00: a story and when we hear a story
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SPEAKER_00: Different Parts Of The Brain Light Up The Amygdala Related To Emotion The
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Prefrontal Cortex Which Is For Memory Wernicke's Area Which Is
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For Language
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Processing And Then They Also Did This Experiment Where They
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Had Two Groups Of
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People And Group One They Gave Them A Bunch Of Facts Group Two
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They Gave Them The
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SPEAKER_00: Same Facts But They Packaged Them In A Story
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SPEAKER_00: Group 2,
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the people in Group 2 were able to remember many more of the
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facts because they
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SPEAKER_00: could remember the story.
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SPEAKER_00: And so this is the power of a story.
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SPEAKER_00: Stories are memorable.
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SPEAKER_01: They stick.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's got to be related to your message as well.
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SPEAKER_00: Has to be related, yes.
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You can tell a nice story,
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but if it has no relation,
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then it's just confusing.
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SPEAKER_01: The best advice I've received is tell a story and make a point Yes,
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SPEAKER_00: tell a story,
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SPEAKER_00: make a point Too often,
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SPEAKER_00: however,
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SPEAKER_00: it's maybe one story and then point,
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SPEAKER_00: point,
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SPEAKER_00: point,
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SPEAKER_00: point,
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SPEAKER_00: point No,
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it's true And this discussion reminds me of a fantastic article
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that I read in the
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SPEAKER_00: Harvard Business Review years ago
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What Was Called The Four Truths Of The Storyteller And It Was
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Written By A Man
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SPEAKER_00: Named Peter Guber He's A Very Successful Businessman In The U.S.
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And He Among His Companies Is One Called Mandalay Entertainment
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And They've Made
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Some Big Hollywood Movies Like Seven Years In Tibet With Brad
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Pitt Or Legend Of
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Sleepy Hollow With Johnny Depp And This Article Caught My
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Attention Because In It
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SPEAKER_00: The Author Talks About How
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SPEAKER_00: people in business,
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SPEAKER_00: in companies,
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SPEAKER_00: organizations,
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SPEAKER_00: people like you and me,
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how we can use storytelling techniques from Hollywood in a
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business presentation.
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SPEAKER_00: And very simply,
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SPEAKER_00: he said,
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SPEAKER_00: for a story to make a real impact,
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SPEAKER_00: there have to be four truths,
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SPEAKER_00: four things that are true about it.
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SPEAKER_00: Number one is truth to the speaker,
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SPEAKER_00: which means you as a speaker have to feel something for the story.
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SPEAKER_00: It has to mean something to you,
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which is why personal stories are so great because they're part
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of who we are.
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SPEAKER_00: The second truth is truth to the audience.
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SPEAKER_00: There's got to be something in your story that if I'm in the audience,
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SPEAKER_00: I can take and apply in my life.
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SPEAKER_00: For example,
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SPEAKER_00: companies hire people who have done amazing things like,
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
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SPEAKER_00: maybe they've climbed Mount Everest.
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They bring them in and they give a talk about their climbing
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Mount Everest.
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SPEAKER_00: Well,
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how many people from the company do you think are going to go
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climb Mount Everest
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SPEAKER_00: afterwards?
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SPEAKER_00: I'm guessing zero.
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SPEAKER_00: That's my guess.
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SPEAKER_00: So why bring the person in?
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SPEAKER_00: Well,
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maybe there's something in her story about teamwork or
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something in her story about
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SPEAKER_00: resilience in the face of challenges.
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SPEAKER_00: That's truth to the audience.
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SPEAKER_00: The third one is truth to the moment,
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SPEAKER_00: which means you tell the right story in the right amount of detail.
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SPEAKER_00: at the right time.
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SPEAKER_00: So people sometimes like to tell a story which goes on and on and on.
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You got to be able to keep it tight as well and condensed for
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the situation.
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SPEAKER_00: And then the fourth truth is what he calls truth to the mission.
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SPEAKER_00: How does this story help the audience move towards the mission,
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SPEAKER_00: the objective that you have set for them?
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SPEAKER_00: Which brings us all the way back to this idea of persuasion.
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This is very interesting because sometimes let's say I'm
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sitting at a meeting with
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a client or I'm sitting in the audience and listening to
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somebody speak sometimes
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when people talk just too much when they don't know when to you
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know if you don't
15:26
have anything to say don't say anything just sit down but
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sometimes people ramble
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on and on and on and you can just see that when they do that
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people stop listening
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But then when you have something to say Or when you see a
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speaker Or a leader And
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they have something important to say And they say that In a
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clear concise manner
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And they just sit down That's more powerful than just Talking
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and talking without
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direction It's like what The American President Franklin
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Roosevelt said Be clear Be
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SPEAKER_00: brief Be clear Be seated Say what you have to say
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Don't Say Anything More And Then Sit Down I Think We Need That
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Advice Yeah We All
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Need That Advice Is The Power Of The Pause The Power Of Silence
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I Tell People That
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Learning To Be Comfortable With Silence Is One Of The Most
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Powerful Skills Any
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SPEAKER_00: Speaker Can Learn To Leave A Little Bit Of Space
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for the audience and it's not easy and I especially if you're
16:33
starting out as a
16:34
speaker I know it's not easy you're on stage and you say
16:37
something and you pause
16:38
and now you're looking at the audience and you're thinking oh
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my god everybody's
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looking at me and I can feel my heart pounding but they're
16:46
looking at you because
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you're on stage whatever you're doing if you're on stage
16:49
they're going to look at
16:50
you and nobody can feel your heart pound but two things happen
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when you pause
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SPEAKER_00: number one
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SPEAKER_00: You look good,
16:57
SPEAKER_00: you look confident,
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SPEAKER_00: you're not going to be rushed,
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SPEAKER_00: and that enhances your ethos,
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SPEAKER_00: your credibility.
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SPEAKER_00: But number two,
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SPEAKER_00: and more importantly,
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SPEAKER_00: you are giving the audience a chance to think about what you've said.
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You're giving them a chance to internalize what you've just
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been speaking about.
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SPEAKER_00: And this is important,
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especially when the audience doesn't know as much as you do
17:21
about the topic.
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Because we all suffer from something known as the curse of
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knowledge and the curse
17:27
of knowledge is essentially when you know something so well
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that you forget what it
17:36
was like when you knew nothing about it and whatever it is
17:40
you're talking about
17:41
whatever it is I'm talking about there was a time in our lives
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when we knew nothing
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SPEAKER_00: about it
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SPEAKER_00: And so many times people in the audience,
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SPEAKER_00: they are at that same point or not much farther advanced.
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And so they need this extra time because what's obvious to you
17:57
as a speaker is not
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SPEAKER_00: necessarily obvious to the audience.
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SPEAKER_01: They can use that pausing, the pause, also to transition between points.
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SPEAKER_00: As well.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_01: and I've also seen you,
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SPEAKER_01: John,
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SPEAKER_01: when you start your presentation,
18:13
SPEAKER_01: I remember seeing you for the first time in,
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SPEAKER_01: I think it was 2012 or 2013,
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SPEAKER_01: you were talking about,
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SPEAKER_01: I think you were talking about being in Turkey with your daughter.
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SPEAKER_00: Okay, I remember that story.
18:31
SPEAKER_01: You got the introduction,
18:32
we clapped and you went on the stage and you were just silent
18:38
for I think three to
18:39
SPEAKER_01: five seconds and you got our attention.
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A common mistake I see is usually people getting up on the
18:47
stage and just starting quickly.
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SPEAKER_01: and people are just scrolling through their phones,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
18:54
SPEAKER_01: and they're not focusing on the speaker.
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SPEAKER_01: But when you paused,
18:59
everybody looked at you and that was powerful because it
19:02
signaled not only
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SPEAKER_01: confidence,
19:05
SPEAKER_01: but also presence on the stage.
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SPEAKER_00: It's the ripple effect.
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I grew up in a small town called Port Coburn in southern
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Ontario in Canada.
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And Port Coburn sits on Lake Erie,
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one of the five great lakes in the middle of North America.
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And we didn't live on the lake,
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but we lived close enough that I could walk to it.
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SPEAKER_00: And in the summertime,
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what I would love to do when I was a little boy would go down
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early in the morning
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SPEAKER_00: David Pérez
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the United States and for me at the time that was the most
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exotic place in the
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world because it was a foreign country and what I would love to
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do is pick the
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biggest rock I could and I would throw it into the lake and it
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would land with this
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SPEAKER_00: plop and then I would watch the ripples spread out
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I would imagine that one of those ripples made it all the way
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over to touch the
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SPEAKER_00: shores of the US.
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And I often think of those days now doing what I'm doing and
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you doing what you're
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SPEAKER_00: doing is because the rock,
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SPEAKER_00: that's the message where it lands.
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SPEAKER_00: is the audience,
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but it's the ripples that make the difference because your
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audience that you're
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SPEAKER_00: impacting,
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people will hear this and they will go off and do something
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which impacts others
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SPEAKER_00: and they will impact others and so on and so on.
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And so I think it's a great metaphor for your podcast because
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that's what you're doing.
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SPEAKER_00: You are throwing stones and making ripples.
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SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to Speaking of Meaning.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: If today's episode helped you see communication in a new way,
20:47
SPEAKER_01: share it with someone you care about,
20:49
SPEAKER_01: a friend,
20:50
SPEAKER_01: a partner or a colleague who wants to grow.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: And don't forget to follow the podcast so you never miss an episode.
20:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm Ibrahim.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: Until next time, better communication, greater impact.