Latest / TIPS Podcast / TIPs Forum: An Interview with Vas Putter

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TIPs Forum: An Interview with Vas Putter · TIPS Podcast

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Training Industrial Policy Strategies official podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: It is a show where we try to delve into the fascinating world of economics and its impact on global development.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're running just a special TIPS forum panel edition, and we're just discussing, you know, the theme for this year's TIPS Annual Forum was small business inclusive growth and industrial policy in South Africa, aimed at driving industrialization by unlocking the small business sector.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'll let you introduce yourself to our listeners.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: So my background is in art, and uh my early education was in fine arts.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: And after university, I went on to work in the retail sector as a creative.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: And after many years in the retail sector, I became ill and then started volunteering, people living with disabilities.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then after a few years of doing that, I realized that there was something missing in my life, and that was my creative journey.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And in 2016, I started, you know, painting and getting back onto my own personal creative journey, but felt at the same time now there was something missing, and that was my community engagement.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: So this really has been a journey of trying to bring the things that I'm passionate about together, and that's creativity as well as community.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: I know you were a runner for the UN Woman of Climate Cheering Takeaward.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: How has this at least impacted your career and your projects?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or have there been some successes?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because we definitely all know the challenges.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that was also during COVID-19 lockdown, and one of the local venues, you know, that when they couldn't uh host any public functions during that time, and they really needed to look at alternative streams of income, and they opened a garden center.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: They approached me to do a garden sculpture, an installation scarecrow.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought of uh, you know, how can I bring my own voice to this?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I was inspired at the time by the whole, I think it was a it was an anniversary of the Rana Plaza tragedy that happened in the clothing factory in the east.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I did a sculpture out of fast fashion garments and discarded objects, and I made this this sculpture a multicultural flower cellar, which I felt really embodied South African women.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that was an idea that I had, and it got me thinking about using lots of fast-fashion items and things from the textile industry and giving them a new life.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how that award came about from the UN Women and Climate uh She Reign's Tech, you know, business competition.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit about how I've arrived at where I have in terms of environmental justice is in 2019 I wanted to start my own business working from home as a person living with disability.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to start a little retail store from home, you know, selling vintage, which is another passion of mine.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then COVID-19 hit 2020.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: I just realized, oh well, I can't really have a shop at home.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I looked at an online retail space and uh was lucky enough to be coached with the Future Females Business School, where I learned a lot about how secondhand uh could actually fit into waste recovery.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: And this really got me thinking.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I looked at how I could, you know, then promote conscious consumerism within the community, which is something that was already happening during lockdown.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: The stores were closed and the local communities were trading with each other through virtual platforms such as WhatsApp, and it really was thriving.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And there was almost sort of a camaraderie where if people needed something, you would naturally be able to just pass along used items.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then when lockdown was over and the retail stores opened, you know, that died down a lot, um, which was really sad.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: I thought, well, you know, people have now gone from seeing the value in upcycling and making do with what they have and sharing in a community space to now going back to consuming en masse and not really being conscious of whether or not they're buying things that they need and also supporting perhaps imports, cheap imports, and being more wasteful.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that time during lockdown really shifted a lot in terms of my perspective of how we should be consuming and making choices at a community level that can affect the larger industry.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: I really find that quite interesting.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I was telling my mother from the rural Eastin Cape that some of the conscious activity of trying to be climate conscious and environmentally friendly is the things we've been practicing just by means of having lack of um taking plastic bags.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Every black household has that drawer full of plastic bags.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: It was not only because you're trying to save taxes, which is maybe what the tax um implications are now.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: For we have to buy a plastic bag.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: It was, no, actually, I can reuse this.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't need another one.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: We were not really being conscious of the fact that plastic, just as a material, does not integrate back into the earth and its environmental impact in society and how we're destroying the earth and you know, really not addressing the climate urgency.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I really like that thinking because I think the words that come with all of this activism now are not addressing the reality of where we come from and how much little we need, and how, as you say, and you mentioned over-consumerism, capitalism has created this mass greed that is not really impacting our planet in a very positive way.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, why do you think small businesses such as yourself are vital and even small businesses that are working in this space, especially marginalized businesses such as yours owned by disabled and vulnerable groups like women and people of color?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: I like what you were saying about your, you know, your household and your family values, because growing up, I'm the youngest of five daughters.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: So Han me downs was a thing in the house, but also something that we looked forward to because you know you'd get your your older sister's really cool outfit.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that um link with morals and ethics and values is something that we're losing today as consumers, but also business owners.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: So we are looking at ourselves as separate from the people who are producing the goods and the environments in which they live.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: So personally, my mother was a garment worker in the early 60s, and I watched a documentary at some point a few years ago called True Cost, and it was about the really poor conditions that the textile industry workers live and work in, and what the women are subjected to in you know, countries across the other side of the world.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we in this country we have become so desensitized to how we fit into the things in a global scheme that we think, oh, you know, we have certain labor regulations here, so we're safe, but we're part of an ecosystem.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: So to be free in one country while people are not free in another country, producing the clothes that we are importing and wearing, you know, we we become very detached from the reality of what it means to be marginalized.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: The great saying by Mandela is you're not free until everybody is free.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: So when we look at ourselves as marginalized, we need to also remember that the choices that we make are also affecting women and children, communities, and the environment elsewhere.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not in a silo as a country where we separate.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I definitely hear how the linkages are quite important.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think are some of the barriers that you've spoken about?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: I know you spoke about COVID being one of the moments of opportunity, but of great, you know, display in terms of being able to trade in one business, but also opening up of other types of business.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the barriers to the growth of your business?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, as I mentioned, the trading in vintage and secondhand for that died down a lot during 2022-23.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: And where I live in Durban, we had certain things that affected us.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: And one of them was the unrest that happened in 2021.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: And what this did was it flooded the secondhand trade with newly acquired items.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And the following year we had the floods.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: And during the floods, what we saw was a huge amount of disruption and waste streams and infrastructure issues.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: And what also happened, you know, for me, what I had seen was all of this waste.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you think, where is all of this waste going?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: How is it being processed?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then as a creative, I thought, well, is there a way that we can actually bring this together?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Bring the secondhand market, bring a waste uh recovery, bring the community together, and also do this in a more critical and creative way.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I am, you know, at the moment with what I'm trying to do this year.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: The barriers that I've had, you know, often with people who want to start things out of passion in this green space and you know, in the green economy, it is difficult to gain that momentum because you're up against something that is so readily available and marketed in terms of cheap imports, in terms of illegal dumping that happens here, illegal flooding of secondhand items, or even of art that is not really ethically dumped in the space as well, if you understand what I'm trying to say.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's people who are passionate and working on the ground to build something and to build something sustainable.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: I do feel they're not getting the support.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, these are also women and people with disabilities and young entrepreneurs that are doing something, they're taking a more difficult path.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I do feel that they're the ones that need the support that you know is available when you look at some of the countries overseas.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: They're getting a lot more education, whereas in this country, there's still so many gaps.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, personally, with the projects that I've been involved with, I look for information on how to ethically refurbish discarded materials.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: And there's very little in terms of what's available to us in South Africa, in terms of products or training or skills workshops, you know.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if you look at some of the Scandinavian countries who are at the forefront of upcycling and being zero-waste communities, it's more about uh a mindset, but also instilling in the communities that this is the way we need to do things now.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I like the point that you say that this is the new world.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: We have to green our economies.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: But how do you think, you know, governments, businesses, I mean, small businesses, definitely South Africa has a shortage of ads, and they've got very few opportunities because of the structural issues that South Africa has to start a small startup?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: But what I think you're doing and is you're even trying to be resourceful and to use what is already existing and not create um added climate uh you know emissions.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do we navigate the space of trying to industrialize Africa, trying to grow, trying to be big economies, trying to be economies with industry, while at the same time saying there's things that are existing but and being eco-conscious consumers?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because the question is: if we are to change all economies, it's not just the small businesses that need to be a part of that, it's the big businesses who might not even have an imperative to change because their profit margins would start to change if their source of energy has to change or the way that they mass produce has to change.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Incentively it already creates a core business proposition for them.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do we navigate that fine line of growing small businesses who are thinking of greening our economy while you know also trying to make Africa better and shinier and industrialize and create more jobs?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, with policymakers and with the government, if they put something in place and it can be the smallest thing, like we may not think that the bag that we carried to the shop or the bag that we get at the shop to carry our groceries in would make such a big impact.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, 20 years ago we wouldn't have thought that.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: But that was forcibly put into place, and now it's something that you think about every single time you go to the shop.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you have to start seeing though, do we though, let's be honest.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: I try to, but I still seem to end up with this mountain of bags.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: But it's um, you know, it's a work in progress, yeah, but we made a start, and I think that's the important thing.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's top-down as well as you know, bottom-up.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: So the people that are trying on the ground, but also from top down, if you have policies in place, then that has to be better monitored and implemented so that the people who are doing the work, the smaller businesses, don't feel overwhelmed after five years and then give up, because that is the landscape.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's what it's been looking like for the past five to ten years in this space.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, as economists, so uh the body of work that TIPS does is in researching, you know, the nature of this demand, whether or not, you know, the government interventions and the policies, the tariffs, like the example you just gave of the plastic tariff, you know, like we have the just transition team on the just essay project that we manage.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of the green team always tries to locate, you know, at the government level, how they can start to green the immediate economies by showing them, you know, some of the research, the key research around how because of the tariffs on plastics, there was a significant spike or drop in the consuming of plastic bags and also some of the light bulbs and how you know the eco-friendly light bulbs, there was quite a spike once there were tariffs input by government.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: But how does small business you know or government policies really work with small businesses because you still need to grow?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, so I can only give you um, you know, from what whatever I've experienced.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, when I was producing one of the pieces for the TIPS forum on access, and a lot of the things that entrepreneurs that are facing barriers uh spoke about was access, access to markets, access to finance, access to specific skills, training, you know, the gaps either technical or you know, whatever it might be for their specific business.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And this word access, it really is a journey in the beginning.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's a maze and then it's an obstacle course.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to start asking ourselves, but why?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Why is it that way?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Why is it that?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, personally, if if you have a disability, you know, if you're in a wheelchair and every single building has stairs, uh, it's as basic as that.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: You're now already at a disadvantage.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I'm giving you an example, but if you take this into each entrepreneur's journey, if you take it, you know, beyond the symbolism of access that I've given you.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: So we've got to look at what are the barriers to access.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: And if the same things keep coming up with each interview, you know, listen to each of the interviews, and it was the same three things that were coming up with access.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, it's those those entities, those bodies that need to look at why is it that young startups, not only in terms of age, but also startup in their sector, why are they finding it so difficult when these are the people that are really doing the research, being innovative and putting in the hard work, why are they giving up or having to drastically change direction, you know, after three to five years of really putting in that work?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas you've got these skilled people with the experience that you should now say, okay, let's sit and let's have a look at what your issues were.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you have access to finance barrier?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Could it be a language shortfall when you're applying for something?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Could it be a technical shortfall?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Could it be a compliance issue?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and we need to look at is it that you may be ticking nine out of 10 boxes, but that one box, you know, you're not ticking.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: But let's see how we can be flexible because this startup, this entrepreneur that's really been trying for three years, how can we now look at another way to go in this maze?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: How can we help them on this journey?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because those are the people that are actually going to be pulling up everyone else that's three to five years behind them on this journey.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to close the session and say thank you so much for bringing your art to create a meaningful difference.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: We really appreciate it.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: We will definitely be using your pieces in our office and explaining the backstory.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: But to our listeners, thank you so much for joining us.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, sustainable growth is not just a goal, but a path to a more resilient and prosperous future.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, connect with us on social media, and remember to follow our body of research on the Tips websites www.tips.org.za, and interact with us on this podcast on Apple, D's and Spotify and YouTube.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Join us next time as we continue our exploration of policies that shape economies.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Until then, I'm your host, Nana Majinana, with our artist Baz Saninho.