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What’s a Mike Johnson? · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's show, Joe Biden is about to get a
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: primary opponent, Mark Meadows flips on Donald Trump, and former
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: DOJ prosecutor Andrew Weissman joins to help us break down
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: the week of bad legal news for the criminal defendant
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Republican frontrunner. But first, the new Speaker of the House
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: is allegedly a guy called Mike Johnson. A name that
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: seems intentionally difficult to Google. It just... Made that one
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: up so you Google Mike Johnson, you don't know what
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: you're getting. Over the last three weeks, Republicans went from
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: a Kevin to a Steve to a Jim to a
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Tom before reaching outside their comfort zone and settling on
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: a Mike. The 51-year-old Louisiana congressman who seems just fine
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: with being everyone's fifth choice. Johnson won unanimous support from
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: his Republican colleagues. He's extreme enough for people like Matt Gaetz,
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: who calls him MAGA-MIKE. Mega Mike. That's what Matt Gaetz
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: calls him. That's what Donald Trump's calling him, too. But
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: he's apparently anonymous enough for the 18 Republicans in Biden
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: districts who are betting that their constituents won't find out
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: they voted for a speaker who talks like this.
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: You know, we don't live in a democracy because a
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for dinner. OK,
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: it's not just majority rule. It's a constitutional republic. And
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: the founders set that up because they followed the biblical
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: admonition on what a civil society is supposed to look like.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Roe v.
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: Wade gave constitutional cover to the elective killing of unborn
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: children in America.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Period.
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: You think about the implications of that on the economy.
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: We're all struggling here to cover the bases of Social
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: Security and.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Medicare and Medicaid and all the rest.
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: If we had all those able-bodied workers in the economy,
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: we wouldn't be going upside down and toppling over like this.
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: And, you know, the allegations about these Voting machines, some
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: of them being rigged with this software by Dominion.
• 2:14
  Speaker 4: Look, there's a lot of merit to that.
• 2:17
  Speaker 5: The fix was in.
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: You know, I could give example after example in all
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: these states.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: So after he wins the speakership, Mike Johnson holds a
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: press conference with all of his Republican goon friends. And
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: a reporter asks about his role in trying to overturn
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: the 2020 election. And here's how he and the House
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Republicans responded. Boo elections! Go away democracy! Boo! So, the
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: Republicans have chosen as their highest ranking elected official in
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: the country, someone who's been called a key architect of
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Trump's attempted coup, who wants to end Medicare and Social
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Security as we know it, who wants a national abortion ban,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: who's tried to criminalize gay marriage, gay sex, and introduce
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: a national version of Florida's don't say gay law that
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: would apply to not just schools, but any federal institutions,
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: including public libraries, hospitals, and the military. Dan, how was
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Mike Johnson acceptable to the Biden district Republicans who, who
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: thought that Jim Jordan was too extreme? And how did
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: he succeed where Scalise and Emmer failed?
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go on a limb here and suggest
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: that these guys didn't really think this one through. What
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: I think happened here is they were exhausted. He is
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: clearly far right. He is further to the right, particularly
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: on these social issues than any of the other people
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: who ran. He is, with the exception of Jim Jordan,
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: more intimately involved in the coup than any other people
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: who ran. He just is largely anonymous. He's less polarizing.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: I think he has a moderate demeanor in the halls
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: of Congress, meaning he doesn't want to run around without
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: a suit called bullying people like Jim Jordan does. He
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: just seems like a pretty anonymous guy. I think we
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: got to the point where these Republicans were exhausted, frustrated,
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: and Mike Johnson was largely inoffensive to most of these
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: Republicans who largely agree with most of what he says.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: And Donald Trump was largely agnostic on him, and it
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: kind of appreciated his little motivational speech around the coup
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: that Johnson gave Trump. And so they just went for it.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: If Johnson had been the second candidate or the third
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: candidate or the fourth candidate, he would have failed. But
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: because he was the fifth, when everyone was tired and exhausted,
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: he snuck on through.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, people are now digging up all of the
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: things that he has said, his positions, his videos of
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: him speaking. I mean, this guy is further to the
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: right on a lot of social issues than any Republican
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: politician in America that I've heard about over the last
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: several years, like just to just to go through a list.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: So people in Maine right now are currently grieving the
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: worst mass shooting in the state's history. In 2016, Johnson
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: gave a sermon in which he said that in the 60s,
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: we invented no-fault divorce laws, the sexual revolution, legalized abortion,
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: radical feminism, and all of that is why decades later,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: we have mass shootings. He thought mass shootings, that you
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: could draw a straight line from the 60s and abortion
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: and feminism to mass shootings today. He hates no-fault divorce
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: laws so much that he's one of the leading proponents
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: of of something called covenant marriage, which I did not
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: know what that was until I had to look it
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: up because Mike Johnson is the Speaker of the House now.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: Covenant marriage would make divorce harder and it makes it
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: harder for women to leave bad marriages. So it makes
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: it harder to get a divorce because you sign up
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: on the front end for a covenant marriage. He is
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: called being gay inherently unnatural and a dangerous lifestyle that
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: could lead to legalized pedophilia and possibly even destroy the
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: entire democratic system. He wrote about the evils of sexual
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: conduct outside marriage. That's both homosexual and heterosexual sex. He
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: said that the looting after... He's from Louisiana. He said
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: that the looting after Katrina happened because of too much
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: gambling and not enough God. He thinks public schools should
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: teach the Bible as an accurate record of history. And
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: here's my favorite. He tried to lobby... This is before
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: he was a legislator. He tried to lobby for tax
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: breaks for Noah's Ark theme park in Northern Kentucky... that
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: would teach people that there were actually dinosaurs aboard the Ark.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: Did you know that, Dan? That is one way.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: To square the circle.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: That's how he squares evolution with creationism. There were dinosaurs
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: aboard the Ark. Teach it to the children. There'll be
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: less mass shootings. Case closed. That's Mike Johnson. That's Mike Johnson.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Mike Johnson thinks the government should have no role in
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: helping you have healthcare or have a secure retirement, but
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: it should have an highly intense, very involved role in
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: your sex life, your marriage, your healthcare decisions. I mean,
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: Mike Johnson represents everything about Republicans that voters hate.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: Hate. Yeah.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: Paul Ryan's economic policies, Mike Pence's social policies, Donald Trump's
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: wacky views on the election is Mike Johnson. So in
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: some ways, thank you.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: I know. He also connects them, too. I wanted to
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: pick apart that quote we heard about Roe v.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: Wade.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: He wants to force women to give birth so that
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: those children can then be able-bodied workers to help fund
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: Social Security and Medicare? That is so fucking crazy.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Which he wants to gut. Social Security and Medicare.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: This made a second in line to the presidency just
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: to end this thing on a sour note.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: Second in line to the presidency. Second in line. Every
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: Republican voted for him. Every single one who was there
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: voted for him. No one voted against him.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: They cheered him and chanted Mike, Mike, Mike, as it happened,
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: which is might've been the first time any of them
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: said his name.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: Do you hear what John Fetterman said just now when
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: he was asked about him?
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: No.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: He said, MAGA loves a big Johnson. All right. So, uh,
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: What happens now? Johnson has opposed aid for Ukraine in
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: the past, seems supportive of aid for Israel, really doesn't
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: like spending money on Americans. How do we get through
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: the next few months without a government shutdown?
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: It's a great question, John. It's possible. We're not making
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: predictions here. But before he was actually won the nomination,
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: Johnson put forward a bit of a plan to the
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: Republicans that included a temporary bill, a continuing resolution, if
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: you will, to a keep the government funded at current
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: levels for some period of time, could be 45 days,
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: could be a little bit longer, so that the House
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: could pass the appropriations bills they said they would pass,
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: but mostly failed to pass. So it seemed like maybe
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: as he was elected, we were going to avoid it.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: But then some of the right-wing members like Ken Buck
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: came out this morning and said, sure, we're for a
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: continuing resolution, but we need to get something for it,
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: like some cuts in funding or some border policy. So
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: we are basically right back to where we were. It's
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: possible the Republicans, Johnson's going to have some honeymoon period
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: with these Republicans. So it may be that he'll get
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: a couple of opportunities to do something that may anger
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: some people. They'll just like take it. So we could
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: get a temporary resolution. How we avoid a government shutdown
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: at some point seems quite hard to imagine given the
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: dynamics in his caucus. And he still has the same
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: sword of Damocles with the motion to vacate hanging over
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: him that Kevin McCarthy did.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the dynamics haven't changed. The fundamental dynamics, right?
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: Like you could see maybe a CR passing for a
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: couple months, but like eventually the hard right MAGA crew
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: that ousted McCarthy in the first place is going to
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: want their pound of flesh in terms of the policies
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: they get, in terms of budget cuts. So I don't
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: know how we're going to get past that. How do
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: you think Biden and the Democrats should handle a Johnson-led House?
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: Is it possible for the president to show he's willing
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: to work with Republicans, but also remind people that they're
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: a bunch of arsonists who just elected Mike Johnson to
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: lead them?
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: It's so funny when you say Mike Johnson, because it
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: doesn't seem like he's a real person.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: I don't know if he is. I don't know if
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: he is.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, we only discovered his presence.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: I think we have an AI speaker. Yes.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: I think the president should show he can work with
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: Republicans by working with the small handful of Senate Republicans
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: who want to keep the government open and provide funding
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: for Ukraine and Israel. There should not be some courtship
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: of Mike Johnson where Mike Johnson comes over for cookies
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: and whiskey.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: No.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: Just have a meeting with all the members, all the leadership,
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: invite Mike Johnson. But you're never going to be able
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: to work with him or this Republican House. You cannot.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: The only way you're going to get things done is
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: by coming to an agreement with the Senate, a bipartisan
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: agreement in the Senate, and jamming the House. That is
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: the only way it's going to happen. And I think
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: that Mike Johnson is a perfect punching bag for Democrats
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: for the next several months here. There's going to be
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: a race to define him to the country. We should
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: win that race. The president and Democrats should be at
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: the front of leading that race. I think it's really
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: important that Democrats show that there is an obstacle to
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: progress on the things we care about. And that obstacle
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: is this extreme MAGA house. And Mike Johnson is in
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: this new role as an opportunity to do that in
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: a way that breaks through to some people.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the president can do both, right? I mean,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: he already... like congratulated him and said he wants to
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: work with him, which is obviously what he has to do.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: But like he should be very firm in holding the
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: House to the bipartisan budget deal that he struck with
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy and label anything that deviates from that as
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: extremism that's actually going to hurt people. And like you said,
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: he has Mitch McConnell and some Senate Republicans who want
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: that bipartisan budget deal to go through. And so if
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: MAGA Mike and his crew want to throw in all
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: kinds of extras and shut the government down, then Biden
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: can go out there and talk about how those budget
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: cuts are going to hurt people, how those policies are
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: going to hurt people, and who exactly is standing in
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: the way. And he's on the side of a bipartisan
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: majority in Washington, and MAGA Mike and his kooks and
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump, they're the extremes. So, you know, if nothing else,
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Republicans certainly gave Democrats some decent political ads over the
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: last few weeks. Here's a sample of what Republicans are
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: saying about themselves.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: What they're doing right now is walking the Republicans off
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: the plank. We don't deserve the majority.
• 12:49
  Speaker 6: I have to say, it's my 10th term in Congress.
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: This is probably one of the most embarrassing things I've seen.
• 12:58
  Speaker 6: And the dysfunction in the Republican Party right now is,
• 13:02
  Speaker 6: seems to be saying, we want to lose. We might
• 13:05
  Speaker 6: as well have Hakeem Jeffries and the Democrats control the Congress.
• 13:08
  Speaker 5: This whole episode will fight to the House GOP at
• 13:10
  Speaker 5: this moment.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: Oh, very poorly.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: Very, very poorly. We're now part of the dysfunction of Washington.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: They're now part of it. As opposed to the fucking
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: well-oiled machine it was before.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, that was just, you know, Saul put that
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: super cut together in a couple minutes. Just think of
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: the ads. Think what Democratic ad makers could do with
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: the last few weeks. If you were running a House
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: campaign in a swing district, would you use some of
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: this material in your ads? Or do you think it's
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: more effective to focus on the Republican candidates' vote for
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: MAGA Mike or Jim Jordan, which a lot of them did,
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: would you do both? Would you do neither? What do
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: you think?
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: I would take that super clip. I would play it
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: at a Democratic Party convention. I would have a great
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: laugh with it, and then I'd be done with it.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: I don't think it– you have to pick a lane, right?
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: In this media environment, you have to– you need one
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: story empty hammer, that story home. And I think that
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: story is extremism, not incompetence.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: And so– and I don't think– and it's not the
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: vote for MAGA Mike. That's what we're doing that? That's
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: the thing we're doing? Mega Mike.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Mega Mike. I mean, that's what Donald Trump's saying. That's
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: what Matt Gaetz is saying.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: We've never not listened to those two, so let's do it.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: We know from polling that voters actually know the difference
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: or see a difference between MAGA and Republicans. That's true. Yeah, okay.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Which I, by the way, would not have guessed, but
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: apparently they do.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: I think it's a little more nuanced than they voted
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: in October for this guy in a, what essentially to
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: most voters is like a high school class president election.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: It is that we take the positions of the speaker
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: and we apply them to everyone. We use it as
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: a way to tell a story about an extreme Congress
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: that will do these things. Like one of the things
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: we've talked about before you have to do is you
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: have to keep abortion at the top of people's minds
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: if we want to have a chance to make 2024
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: look like 2022. And one way to do that is
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: the fact that one of the most extreme anti-abortion politicians
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: in America is the most powerful elected Republican in the country.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: And I think you can use that as a way.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: It's not that they voted for Jim Jordan or Magic Mike.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: It's that Maga Mike, Magic Mike. Magic Mike. That's the
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: part of the story you didn't know. For Maga Mike.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: He has probably introduced legislation to ban that movie.
• 15:34
  Speaker 6: Yes, I have.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: The whole series. Yes.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: It is what Maga Mike stands for as a way
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: to tell a larger story about Republican extremism.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look, if I was like Mike Lawler
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: is one of those Republicans who's in a Biden district, right?
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: If I was a Democrat running against Mike Lawler, I
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: would make sure that everyone in Mike Lawler's district knows
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: who match knows who MAGA Mike Johnson is, knows what
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: he said about gay people, knows what he said about abortion,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: know all of his views. I would make I would
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: make him famous in that district. I'd put pictures of
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: the two of them together. everywhere that I ran ads.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is like what Republicans used to do
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: this with, you know, Biden and the squad, right?
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: Nancy Pelosi for a decade.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi for deck. Yeah. For years and years and years. And, uh, look,
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: I don't, I think that like, and a lot of
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: times Republicans are just exaggerating the connection in this case.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: All these Republicans just voted for him as speaker. They
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: could have had a choice. They could have worked with Democrats.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: They could have worked with Hakeem Jeffries to still have
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: a Republican speaker and merely kept the government from shutting down.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: That's all that we were asking. Democrats weren't even asking
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: for more than that. They just wanted to fund the
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: government and they would have still had a Republican speaker
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: and bring legislation to the floor that had a majority
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: in the House. That's all, nothing crazy. But instead of that,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: they chose Mike Johnson. That's the path they chose.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: The most powerful Republican in the country wants to put
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: people in jail for having sex.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And dinosaurs were on the ark. That's the
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: important thing. Dinosaurs were on the ark. Need to make
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: sure our kids learn that. Okay. That's that. That's where
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: the House is. That's where the House is. I do
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: think it is like in 2024 for Democrats who want
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: to take the House back Like, you know, there's a
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: lot of over exuberance on a lot of different developments.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: This one, I mean, this is it's like you said,
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: he has all the worst politics, not just worst politics
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: for people like us who are liberals and partisan Democrats.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: But for I can tell you, most voters in this
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: country do not think that sex should be criminalized. that
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: gay marriage should be criminalized, that all abortion should be criminalized,
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: that there should be a don't say gay law in
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: every single state in the country that includes federally funded institutions, libraries,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: the military. I mean, this is fucking nuts. This is nuts.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: And you think you hate his social policies? Wait till
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: you check out his economic policies.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. No kidding. And he just voted for a
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: CR that cut like a 30% across the board cut,
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: which doesn't sound like much except when you actually get
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: into the programs that that would cut and what that
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: would mean for people. So. Yeah, he's nuts. Okay, before
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: we head to break, two quick housekeeping notes. We love
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Carrie Yuma shoes. I own quite a few pairs. But
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Lovett likes them so much that he demanded his very
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: own Lovett or Lievitt sneaker. It's a really cool design.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: They come in pink and black. They have fun LA-inspired
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: designs with lots of Lovett or Lievitt-inspired details that fans
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: will recognize. So head to cricket.com slash store to grab
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: a pair. Also, quick shout-out that we are rolling out
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: extended episodes of Pod Save the World, now ad-free for
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Friend of the Pod subscribers. You can now listen straight
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: through without interruption, and we've also added a new bi-weekly
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Q & A segment at the end of each episode
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: where Ben and Tommy answer subscriber-submitted questions straight from the
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Friends of the Pod Discord. Obviously, this is a time
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: where Pod Save the World and Ben and Tommy have
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: been doing a fantastic job covering the horrific world events
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: that we're going through. And a lot of people, including me,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: when you don't know what's going on, they do. And
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: if you have questions now, you can ask them and
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: maybe hear your question answered on an episode of Pod
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: Save the World if you're a subscriber. So highly recommend
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: you sign up at Crooked.com slash friends. OK, when we
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: come back, Dan talks to Andrew Weissman about Donald Trump's
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: very bad week in court.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: Here to talk about Donald Trump's major legal troubles is
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: Andrew Weissman, a former federal prosecutor, MSNBC legal contributor, and
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: host of the truly excellent podcast, Prosecuting Donald Trump from MSNBC. Andrew,
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: welcome back to the pod.
• 19:57
  Speaker 5: Nice to be here.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: Thanks for doing this. There's so much to talk about
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: this week regarding all of Donald Trump's various legal challenges.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: The news is coming fast and furious. But I wanted
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: to go through some of the big stories that all happens.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: You can help our listeners understand what's really happening and
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: what it means for the former president's legal predicaments. And
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: let's start with the report that ABC News published on
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Tuesday saying that Mark Meadows, Trump's last White House chief
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: of staff, had been granted immunity by special counsel Jack
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Smith and that he had met repeatedly with Smith and
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: testified in front of a grand jury. Now, I recognize
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: that other outlets have yet to fully confirm this story,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: but if ABC News is correct, what do you think
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: that means about Donald Trump?
• 20:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so it's sort of interesting because this is the
• 20:39
  Speaker 5: biggest story, but it's the one that's least confirmed because
• 20:43
  Speaker 5: everything else, you know, it's happening in court. So we
• 20:46
  Speaker 5: know a lot, not everything, but we know a lot
• 20:48
  Speaker 5: about what's happening. So one of the pieces of corroboration here,
• 20:53
  Speaker 5: which is interesting, is Meadows' own counsel basically issued a
• 21:01
  Speaker 5: statement saying this is essentially largely inaccurate. Um, which Dan,
• 21:08
  Speaker 5: you probably know, both in my world and probably in
• 21:11
  Speaker 5: your world is basically a confirmation.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, it's just, it means they got the
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: number of times he met with Smith wrong.
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: So funny you said that. That's exactly what I was thinking.
• 21:22
  Speaker 5: It's like when it said that he met with Smith
• 21:25
  Speaker 5: three times, it was four times. And when he said
• 21:27
  Speaker 5: it was in the grand jury once, it was twice,
• 21:29
  Speaker 5: you know? I mean, so it's just, it was just
• 21:32
  Speaker 5: notable that it wasn't a flat denial. So what does
• 21:35
  Speaker 5: this mean? So if Mark Meadows, the chief of staff
• 21:40
  Speaker 5: to the former president of the United States, was granted
• 21:43
  Speaker 5: immunity and has now gone in and spoken to Jack
• 21:48
  Speaker 5: Smith and to a grand jury, could not be larger.
• 21:52
  Speaker 5: And The reason is you, just as a prosecutor, you
• 21:57
  Speaker 5: are not going to grant immunity to somebody unless you
• 22:01
  Speaker 5: have been given a very detailed proffer by the attorney
• 22:07
  Speaker 5: for that person, and often even a sort of informal
• 22:11
  Speaker 5: meeting called a proffer session with the person. So essentially,
• 22:15
  Speaker 5: you're not buying a pig in a poke, as we
• 22:17
  Speaker 5: like to say here.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: In New York. And so.
• 22:21
  Speaker 5: It's just a big deal to decide to immunize somebody
• 22:24
  Speaker 5: who could have their own significant exposure. And that means
• 22:27
  Speaker 5: that you have to have made the evaluation that you
• 22:30
  Speaker 5: could not otherwise prosecute them and that they have information
• 22:34
  Speaker 5: that's so significant about people who you think are more culpable.
• 22:37
  Speaker 5: And in this situation, that's one person, which is.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: The former president. Right. There's only one person indicted in
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: this case, and that's Donald Trump. So this is not
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: something that could affect some other person. He's obviously telling
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: them something, if this is all true.
• 22:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it could affect somebody else, but
• 22:51
  Speaker 5: it's not going to only affect that person. They have
• 22:54
  Speaker 5: to be giving something up on the president. That's where
• 22:59
  Speaker 5: You know, the reporting has various pieces of information attributed
• 23:03
  Speaker 5: to Mark Meadows. That's where, you know, the reporting could
• 23:07
  Speaker 5: be wrong. But presumably, Mark Meadows will join in.
• 23:13
  Speaker 5: A litany of people who told the former president after
• 23:17
  Speaker 5: the election that he lost. And so, you know, there
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: already are just, you know, a boatload of people like that.
• 23:26
  Speaker 5: But having the chief of staff on board with having
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: said the same thing would be useful. Just to be fair,
• 23:35
  Speaker 5: he will be cross-examined with the statements from his book.
• 23:38
  Speaker 5: where he is all in on the, you know, the
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: fraud in the election. You know, he joins the Republicans
• 23:49
  Speaker 5: who we all saw, you know, denigrating a reporter for
• 23:53
  Speaker 5: even asking the question about that just yesterday. But this
• 23:58
  Speaker 5: is a huge development, if true. And, you know, in
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: terms of dominoes falling, I mean, this is the biggest domino.
• 24:06
  Speaker 5: The chief of staff, as you know, there's no one
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: that's sort of closer, that sort of closer body man
• 24:12
  Speaker 5: to the president of the United States than the chief
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: of staff. So it could be huge.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: I want to move to Fulton County now, where over
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: the course of the last week, we've seen three people
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: who have worked in and around Donald Trump's legal team,
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Sidney Powell, Kenneth Chesbrough, and Jenna Ellis. plead guilty. And
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: when Sidney Powell and Chesborough played guilty, there was a
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: lot of triumphalism on Twitter. We got them. This is
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: a terrible day for Trump. You and your podcast with
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: Mary McCord, uh, had some caution for why that may
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: not mean what it thinks it means. And I'm going
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: to get to Jen Ellis in a second, but help
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: understand what happened there. Um, and why are you a
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: little more cautious than all the other, all the non-lawyers
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: on Twitter who are popping champagne bottles right now?
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 24:55
  Speaker 5: So, um, first for my kind of snarky line, which
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: is like, it's hard to keep track of the number
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: of Trump lawyers who are going to be witnesses against him,
• 25:08
  Speaker 5: many of whom have now admitted their criminality and complicity
• 25:16
  Speaker 5: in federal schemes. I mean, it's, which, you know, I'm
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: a lawyer. It's just unbelievable to me that they would
• 25:23
  Speaker 5: participate in this. That's, you know, that's, obviously we're not
• 25:26
  Speaker 5: immune from criminals, but it is fairly shocking. To answer
• 25:32
  Speaker 5: your question directly, with Sidney Powell and with Kenneth Chesbrough,
• 25:38
  Speaker 5: especially when we end up looking at the language that
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: was used for the agreement with Jenna Ellis, they did
• 25:45
  Speaker 5: not agree to, quote, fully cooperate, unquote, language that is
• 25:50
  Speaker 5: in the Jenna Ellis agreement. They did not agree to
• 25:54
  Speaker 5: give repeated statements to the Georgia prosecutors. They did not
• 26:00
  Speaker 5: agree that they would be interviewed repeatedly by Georgia prosecutors.
• 26:06
  Speaker 5: What they did agree to is testify truthfully if called
• 26:09
  Speaker 5: at a trial of any of the co-defendants. Well, Dan,
• 26:12
  Speaker 5: you and I have an obligation to testify truthfully if
• 26:16
  Speaker 5: we're called to the stand too, because we will be
• 26:18
  Speaker 5: sworn under oath and we have to tell the truth.
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: The difference is obviously their agreement is on the line
• 26:24
  Speaker 5: if they were to be found to say something false,
• 26:27
  Speaker 5: but we don't really know that they're fully cooperating. And
• 26:32
  Speaker 5: maybe it helps to know what's going on in the
• 26:34
  Speaker 5: back of my head. When I was a prosecutor, when
• 26:36
  Speaker 5: you have a cooperating witness, let's say, Dan, you were
• 26:40
  Speaker 5: the witness. Before we signed you up, I would be
• 26:43
  Speaker 5: meeting with you for days, if not weeks, to debrief
• 26:47
  Speaker 5: you about everything you knew to be comfortable that you
• 26:50
  Speaker 5: have been telling the truth to go over relevant documents.
• 26:54
  Speaker 5: And to be sure, okay, we could use you because
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: we've debriefed you on everything you know, and we're confident
• 27:01
  Speaker 5: you're telling the truth. Then we would sign you up
• 27:04
  Speaker 5: as a cooperating witness. And that just doesn't seem to
• 27:07
  Speaker 5: be what happened here or the nature of the agreement
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: that was reached between Chesbrough and Powell. Now, that's not
• 27:16
  Speaker 5: to say that they may not ultimately be good, but
• 27:18
  Speaker 5: I think it's just, at the very least, it's premature
• 27:22
  Speaker 5: to describe them as cooperating witnesses in the way that
• 27:26
  Speaker 5: you would for sort of a typical federal cooperator, or
• 27:31
  Speaker 5: I actually think with respect to Jenna Ellis.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Before we get to Jenna Ellis, if that is
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: the case, why would Fannie Willis cut these deals with
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: them if it's not going to deliver what we hope
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: it might deliver?
• 27:45
  Speaker 5: So one, that could cut the other way. I mean,
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: it could be like you'd agree to a non-jail time
• 27:50
  Speaker 5: plea disposition because they have given you something important. So
• 27:54
  Speaker 5: to be clear, maybe that is what is happening, but
• 27:57
  Speaker 5: we don't know that. And I just don't want to
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: jump to that yet. But I can give you a
• 28:01
  Speaker 5: couple reasons why you might do this. One- You avoid
• 28:07
  Speaker 5: a five-month trial where you lay out all the evidence
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: to people who you think are more culpable. The person
• 28:15
  Speaker 5: who goes second or third has a real advantage. So
• 28:19
  Speaker 5: if you're keeping your eye on the prize and you
• 28:21
  Speaker 5: think Donald Trump is your main person here, avoiding laying
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: out all that proof is a good thing. Two, you
• 28:29
  Speaker 5: avoid the risk. Even if you think you have a
• 28:31
  Speaker 5: really strong case, there's always the risk of either an
• 28:34
  Speaker 5: acquittal or a hung jury. It only takes one juror
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: to have a hung jury. And just to be clear,
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: if there was a hung jury here, I personally think
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: the election would be over in many ways because that
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: will certainly be touted by Donald Trump and his allies
• 28:50
  Speaker 5: as a huge loss. A hung jury is typically viewed
• 28:53
  Speaker 5: as a loss to the government and a win to
• 28:55
  Speaker 5: the defense. So it avoids all of those risks, and
• 29:01
  Speaker 5: you have a sure conviction. And there is the sense
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: of momentum, because if you do look at Powell and
• 29:13
  Speaker 5: when she pled to misdemeanors, but then you had Chesbrough,
• 29:15
  Speaker 5: he pled to a felony. Then you have Jenna Ellis,
• 29:18
  Speaker 5: and she pled to a felony, but she had a
• 29:20
  Speaker 5: much more fulsome cooperation provision. So even though they're all
• 29:24
  Speaker 5: no jail time, you do get the sense of at
• 29:26
  Speaker 5: least it is escalating. It's going in the right direction.
• 29:29
  Speaker 5: It's not getting weaker over time. The deals are getting
• 29:33
  Speaker 5: stronger for the government.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: Does it put pressure on potentially other people to cut
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: deals if they feel like they can be the last one?
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: You don't want to be the last one standing, right,
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: who didn't get a deal.
• 29:43
  Speaker 5: Absolutely. Again, we'll turn to Jenna Ellis. But if you
• 29:48
  Speaker 5: look at the pressure, Jenna Ellis, I viewed that plea
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: as like a heat-seeking missile directed at Rudy Giuliani. I mean,
• 29:57
  Speaker 5: she pled to aiding and abetting, and it was two co-defendants,
• 30:01
  Speaker 5: one of whom was Rudy. So that was just direct aim.
• 30:06
  Speaker 5: And that is how you do these cases, which is,
• 30:09
  Speaker 5: you know, Fannie Willis had a great strategy and has
• 30:12
  Speaker 5: a great strategy of indicting big. And when you indict big,
• 30:15
  Speaker 5: you sort of try to roll up and have this
• 30:17
  Speaker 5: domino effect and a sense of momentum. and to have
• 30:21
  Speaker 5: defendants worried about the proof getting stronger and the deals
• 30:26
  Speaker 5: getting worse. So there's an idea of come in now
• 30:29
  Speaker 5: and strike the best deal you can.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: Let's get to Jen Ellis because, as you point out,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: she has a different agreement, a stronger agreement. So how
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: is it different? And do you think the reason she
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: took that deal was because of the pressure of these
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: previous ones? Or is there potentially a stronger case against
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: her or a stiffer penalty that she's trying to avoid?
• 30:50
  Speaker 5: First, let me just deal with why her agreement's different.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, please.
• 30:54
  Speaker 5: So similar in that she pleads to a felony like Chesbrough. So,
• 31:00
  Speaker 5: you know, it's different than Sidney Powell who pled to misdemeanors. She, though,
• 31:06
  Speaker 5: agreed to, quote, fully cooperate, unquote. She agreed to meet
• 31:12
  Speaker 5: and be prepared by and give interviews repeatedly to the
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: Georgia prosecutors.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 31:18
  Speaker 5: She, I think those are the two key things. And
• 31:25
  Speaker 5: obviously she also has to testify truthfully at a trial,
• 31:28
  Speaker 5: but she'll be, have been fully prepared. And she also
• 31:30
  Speaker 5: has agreed to give false statements. She had not just
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: that one statement, but to give repeated ones if necessary.
• 31:37
  Speaker 5: So that looks so much like what a federal cooperation
• 31:41
  Speaker 5: agreement looks like. So there's just no way for my,
• 31:45
  Speaker 5: you know, cynical, Or what I would say is, um,
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: you know, just a little worried about the others.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: Skeptical. Skeptical. Yeah, exactly.
• 31:53
  Speaker 5: And there's just no way to be skeptical about her.
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: I mean, you know, cooperators can sometimes not turn out,
• 31:58
  Speaker 5: but there's no question that at this point she is, um,
• 32:01
  Speaker 5: she is signed on to be a full cooperator. Uh,
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: she did give a statement to the court, which in it,
• 32:09
  Speaker 5: which is much more typical in federal court and state court.
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: It's not necessary. I would caution there was something unusual
• 32:17
  Speaker 5: about her statement, which her statement basically kind of said,
• 32:21
  Speaker 5: I made a mistake as opposed to I did something intentionally.
• 32:26
  Speaker 5: She did say, if I knew then what I know now,
• 32:30
  Speaker 5: I wouldn't have represented the former president. Well, that might
• 32:33
  Speaker 5: all be true and well, but that's actually not the
• 32:36
  Speaker 5: standard for a criminal case. A criminal case, it's not
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: by mistake. You have to do something intentionally or it's
• 32:42
  Speaker 5: not a crime at all. So she obviously didn't say
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: that's all she did, so it's not totally inconsistent, but
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: it certainly doesn't suggest a complete acceptance of responsibility in
• 32:56
  Speaker 5: her statement. But she did cry, and she seemed upset
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: and remorseful, but all of that remains to be seen.
• 33:06
  Speaker 5: Why she did it, not clear. Just remember, She is
• 33:11
  Speaker 5: somebody who people had talked about being one of the
• 33:15
  Speaker 5: more likely people to plead and to resolve because she
• 33:18
  Speaker 5: had been talking about, you know, sort of really divorcing
• 33:24
  Speaker 5: herself from the sort of MAGA movement. She did have
• 33:28
  Speaker 5: this proceeding against her in connection with her bar license.
• 33:32
  Speaker 5: And so there was some sense that she, for whatever reason,
• 33:37
  Speaker 5: you know, either because she had a pang of conscience
• 33:40
  Speaker 5: or she just realized, you know, she, as we'd like
• 33:42
  Speaker 5: to say when I was a prosecutor, she was sorry
• 33:44
  Speaker 5: she got caught. You know, I don't know which of
• 33:47
  Speaker 5: the two it is, but, you know, she does seem
• 33:52
  Speaker 5: to be doing the right thing at this point. And
• 33:54
  Speaker 5: as we used to say, she's now on Team America.
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: Or the other way, just to give you as many
• 34:01
  Speaker 5: prosecutorial phrases, she's on the other side. She wants to
• 34:05
  Speaker 5: be on the other side of the V, meaning in
• 34:07
  Speaker 5: the United States versus defendant. She wants to be on
• 34:11
  Speaker 5: the left side, not the right side.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: All of these folks are thought to be involved in
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: or even unindicted co-conspirators in the federal January 6th case?
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: Do their various stages of cooperation deals or their pleading
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: guilty in the Fulton County case affect how they could
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: participate or could be compelled to participate in the federal case? Like,
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: can they, if they're required, if they're required to testify truthfully,
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: is that only count for Fulton County? Can they plead
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: the fifth in Fulton County? Can they plead the fifth
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: if they were to lie or plead the fifth in federal?
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: Does that affect their probation deal? Or how does it just,
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: how does that all interact?
• 34:49
  Speaker 5: Yeah. So that is just the perfect question because it's
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: not usual to have somebody, a defendant who is charged
• 34:58
  Speaker 5: in both federal and state court, but from time to
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: time it happens. And the most unusual thing, whether you ask,
• 35:06
  Speaker 5: you know, I've been a prosecutor and a defense lawyer.
• 35:08
  Speaker 5: If you ask any prosecutor or defense lawyer, What is
• 35:12
  Speaker 5: the most unusual thing that they've seen in connection with Powell, Chesbrough,
• 35:16
  Speaker 5: and Ellis? It's that there isn't what's called a global deal.
• 35:20
  Speaker 5: The idea that you would just have an agreement with
• 35:24
  Speaker 5: one jurisdiction when you know you're facing liability in another
• 35:28
  Speaker 5: makes no sense. And let me just– this is why.
• 35:32
  Speaker 5: So– Jenna Ellis, let's say there's a trial and she
• 35:37
  Speaker 5: is required by her agreement to testify and she's required
• 35:40
  Speaker 5: by her agreement in state court to testify truthfully. So
• 35:44
  Speaker 5: she hops on the stand in Georgia and she testifies
• 35:48
  Speaker 5: and she says things that implicates her in crimes that
• 35:53
  Speaker 5: could be charged federally, not just the state crimes that
• 35:57
  Speaker 5: she has a deal on. everything that she says, all
• 36:01
  Speaker 5: of those statements are admissions that can be used by
• 36:04
  Speaker 5: federal prosecutors. So let's say Jack Smith thinks that the
• 36:08
  Speaker 5: deal with Sidney Powell is outrageous, that she's way too
• 36:13
  Speaker 5: culpable to have gotten a misdemeanor offense. And let's assume
• 36:18
  Speaker 5: he makes that judgment. Well, if she now testifies, her
• 36:21
  Speaker 5: testimony is something that can be used against her. If
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: she takes the fifth in state court. Um, she obviously
• 36:31
  Speaker 5: won't hurt herself in terms of making statements that could
• 36:34
  Speaker 5: be used in the federal case, but she will be
• 36:36
  Speaker 5: in breach of her agreement because her agreement is that
• 36:39
  Speaker 5: she will testify truthfully. That's, that's what the Georgia prosecutors
• 36:44
  Speaker 5: bought with this deal, which was her truthful testimony at
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: any trial of any co-defendant. So, um, They're somewhat in
• 36:55
  Speaker 5: a jam if that were to happen. Now, the only
• 36:59
  Speaker 5: thing I could think of as to sort of why
• 37:01
  Speaker 5: this is happening is that, one, there's no coordination at
• 37:04
  Speaker 5: the prosecutorial level. And two, it doesn't look like the
• 37:12
  Speaker 5: state cases are going to happen anytime soon. In other words,
• 37:17
  Speaker 5: there was a trial that was scheduled for the end
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: of October with Powell and Chesbrough. That's now off. There
• 37:23
  Speaker 5: is no other scheduled date. So this conundrum of what
• 37:28
  Speaker 5: do you do when the trial comes and you have
• 37:31
  Speaker 5: to testify truthfully is one that the can is kicked
• 37:35
  Speaker 5: very far down the road. And if you are gambling,
• 37:40
  Speaker 5: you may think, well, if Donald Trump or an ally
• 37:43
  Speaker 5: wins the presidency, I don't have to worry about those
• 37:46
  Speaker 5: federal cases anyway because they're going away. The Donald Trump
• 37:52
  Speaker 5: cases are going away. any case against Sidney Powell or
• 37:56
  Speaker 5: Kenneth Chesbrough are going away. So I don't have to
• 38:01
  Speaker 5: worry about this conundrum because the Justice Department will be
• 38:05
  Speaker 5: in control of people who don't want to see that happen.
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: I worked on the Mueller investigation. I'm very aware of
• 38:10
  Speaker 5: Donald Trump pardoned every single person who we indicted and convicted,
• 38:16
  Speaker 5: except the people who cooperated. So Michael Cohen and Rick Gates,
• 38:21
  Speaker 5: they didn't get pardons, but everybody else down to Alex Vanderswan,
• 38:27
  Speaker 5: a name that I'm not sure rings any bells to you.
• 38:30
  Speaker 5: But I mean, basically, you know, this was the then
• 38:34
  Speaker 5: president just sort of was like, I'm going to eradicate
• 38:37
  Speaker 5: all of this.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Everyone.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: Let's move quickly to the criminal fraud trial. I know
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: you've been in attendance multiple times, the one there in Manhattan.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: Yesterday on Wednesday was quite a scene where Donald Trump
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: testified and then immediately fined $ 10, 000, then stormed out of court.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump's now been fined $ 15, 000. I know you don't
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: like the term gag order. It's the only term I know.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: It's fine. It's fine.
• 39:03
  Speaker 5: I've been beaten down.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Yes. I know it's not technically a gag order, but
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: he's been fined $ 15, 000 for saying things the court has
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: told him not to say. $ 15, 000, even if Donald Trump really,
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: really inflates his assets, as the court has found him doing, $ 15, 000
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: doesn't seem like a lot of money to him. What
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: was your reaction to what happened yesterday? And what tools
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: does the court have to actually make him adhere to
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: the rules they're trying to set in place?
• 39:28
  Speaker 5: So obviously, greater fines. Two, you can say that any
• 39:36
  Speaker 5: truth social posts or social media posts have to be
• 39:39
  Speaker 5: reviewed by counsel. Three, you can say you can't do
• 39:45
  Speaker 5: any truth social or any other media posts that are
• 39:50
  Speaker 5: in any way related to the case or the cases
• 39:54
  Speaker 5: that you're on. They have to just be political speech.
• 39:59
  Speaker 5: As I like to say, you can run for president
• 40:01
  Speaker 5: and actually not obstruct justice. I know I'm going out
• 40:05
  Speaker 5: on a limb.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: It's possible. Yes.
• 40:08
  Speaker 5: And obviously, elephant in the room is is he can
• 40:12
  Speaker 5: go to jail or house arrest. I mean, there are
• 40:16
  Speaker 5: restrictions on his liberty that you can have. I am
• 40:20
  Speaker 5: very worried that the message of the $ 10, 000 is going
• 40:24
  Speaker 5: to be counterproductive because I think Donald Trump is extremely
• 40:29
  Speaker 5: savvy about sort of figuring out power dynamics and sort
• 40:35
  Speaker 5: of seeing what judges are willing to do and not
• 40:37
  Speaker 5: willing to do. Just remember here the judge found that
• 40:41
  Speaker 5: he directly violated the order that he was referring to
• 40:45
  Speaker 5: his law clerk, that he lied on the stand where
• 40:50
  Speaker 5: he had a short hearing about it. So he also
• 40:52
  Speaker 5: found that- Was he under oath at that point?
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 40:55
  Speaker 5: And said, I was referring to Michael Cohen, which made
• 40:57
  Speaker 5: no sense. And that's what the judge found. It seemed
• 41:00
  Speaker 5: totally logical to me that that's what he would say.
• 41:04
  Speaker 5: So I think that- Understanding that Donald Trump is sort
• 41:09
  Speaker 5: of egging the judge on and he sort of wants
• 41:12
  Speaker 5: to play the victim. But I feel like you I
• 41:17
  Speaker 5: just don't think in my opinion, I don't think it
• 41:20
  Speaker 5: was a strong enough sanction. If you're really worried as
• 41:24
  Speaker 5: the judge, I think correctly. is worried about violence because
• 41:29
  Speaker 5: of Donald Trump's words. And again, just to be clear,
• 41:33
  Speaker 5: this is not just a First Amendment restriction for no reason.
• 41:36
  Speaker 5: This is because, just go back to January 6th, this
• 41:40
  Speaker 5: is the concern about words leading to violent actions.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: Last question for you. As we look at the scope
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: of all of these trials, particularly the criminal ones, what
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Do you think the odds are right now that we
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: will have a resolution in one of them? I guess
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: most likely the January 6th federal trial as relates to
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: Trump before the election.
• 42:03
  Speaker 5: Extremely good.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: Do you think we will? Yes.
• 42:06
  Speaker 5: I think the March 4th trial... If it's up to
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: Judge Chutka in that March 4th trial, as she has said,
• 42:13
  Speaker 5: I'm not saying anything she hasn't said, that trial's going forward.
• 42:17
  Speaker 5: When they were arguing the gag order, I've been beaten
• 42:19
  Speaker 5: to say that now.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you.
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: That she has said that case is going forward. The
• 42:25
  Speaker 5: only thing that could curtail it is this presidential immunity
• 42:29
  Speaker 5: motion that Donald Trump has made. I don't think it's
• 42:32
  Speaker 5: a terribly strong motion. motion, but it is one that
• 42:35
  Speaker 5: could go to the Supreme Court. So if it does that,
• 42:38
  Speaker 5: there could be a delay in the trial because the
• 42:40
  Speaker 5: Supreme Court may stay the case while it decides that issue.
• 42:44
  Speaker 5: I think that's the biggest wild card. But I think
• 42:46
  Speaker 5: absent that, I think that case is going to go
• 42:51
  Speaker 5: to trial and there will be a resolution before the
• 42:55
  Speaker 5: general election. I'm less confident. Obviously, in Georgia, I don't
• 42:58
  Speaker 5: think that's the case. I don't think it's the case
• 43:00
  Speaker 5: in New York. There will be an argument, I think
• 43:03
  Speaker 5: it's November 1st, in the Florida case about the trial
• 43:08
  Speaker 5: date and the schedule there. I think that one's a
• 43:11
  Speaker 5: little harder to tell just because I'm not as confident
• 43:15
  Speaker 5: that that judge is as committed to the trial date.
• 43:19
  Speaker 5: And obviously, the longer you wait on that, you really
• 43:23
  Speaker 5: are going to start running up into significant issues in
• 43:27
  Speaker 5: terms of how to schedule it. But I think that's
• 43:30
  Speaker 5: why the March date, with that one caveat, I think
• 43:34
  Speaker 5: is in stone.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: That is great to hear. Andrew, thank you so much
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: for joining us. Everyone check out Prosecuting Donald Trump. It's
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: an excellent podcast to follow all the ins and outs
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: of Donald Trump's various legal challenges and cases. Thank you
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: so much.
• 43:46
  Speaker 5: Thanks, Dan.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: So even though Donald Trump's co-defendants keep flipping on him,
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: he's still on a glide path to the Republican nomination
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: because I guess Republican voters would rather risk having a
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: convicted felon at the top of their ticket than take
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: a chance on Ron DeSantis or Nikki Haley or any
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: of the rest of them. And from a purely political standpoint,
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: they may not be wrong. New polling from one of
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: the big pro-Biden super PACs surveyed 3,000 voters in Michigan, Pennsylvania,
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: and Wisconsin today. a thousand voters in each state, that's
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: a big sample, and found that if the election were
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: held today, Joe Biden and Donald Trump would be tied
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: at 50%, exactly 50% in a two-candidate race across those
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: three swing states. They also dug into a group of
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: up-for-grabs voters in those states who have a negative opinion
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: of both Biden and Trump. These are the so-called double haters.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: And this poll found that Trump is slightly ahead with
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: that group, by three points, 51 to 48. Let's start
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: with the top line number. A tied race in these
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: three battleground states is actually as good or better for
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: Biden than some of his recent national polls. And that
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: has been a trend I've noticed in some of these
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: state polls recently. Why do you think that is? What's
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: going on there?
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: Just so people understand why it's better is that the
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: country as a whole is more democratic than the battleground states,
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: which is why Biden can win the popular vote by
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: several points, and then win Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Georgia, Arizona
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: by a point or two points. And so the opposite
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: is happening. Trump's actually leading in the national polls, something
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: Biden led in the entire time in 2020. But Biden
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: is doing a few points better in the battleground states.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: And I think the reason for that is that the
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: race is more engaged in those states than it is
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: in the rest of the country. Like I've said this
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: before on this podcast, I think a lot of people
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: have not yet fully comprehended the fact that Donald Trump
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: is going to be the Republican nominee. And frankly, that
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden's going to be the Democratic nominee. They've not
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: been paying a lick of attention to politics for a
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: couple of years now. And the battleground states where there
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: was tens of millions of dollars of advertising spent in 2022,
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: people are just more dialed into what the race is
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: going to look like. And we saw this dynamic. Democrats
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: did better in the states where the races were more engaged, i.e.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: those battleground states in a big Senate governance races, than
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: in other non-competitive states like California, New York, or more
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: Republican states like in the South.
• 46:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: So we're going to be hearing a lot about the
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: double haters over the next year. Hillary lost them in 2016.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: Biden won them in 2020. And now, at least in
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: this poll, Biden is losing them by a few points,
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: but statistically probably tied. Who are these voters? What do
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: we know about them? And what do you think Biden
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: can do to win them over?
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: At least in this poll, they are a little more
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: Republican than the overall electorate. They are a little more
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: male than the overall electorate. And they're more college educated
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: than the overall elected. So the fact that Trump did
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: so overwhelmingly well with these quote unquote double haters was
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: why something no one expected. The assumption was going into
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: the election in 2016 that Hillary and Trump would basically
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: split them. That's usually how that has worked in the past.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: although there had never been a race with such a
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: large pool of double haters. Biden did better amongst them,
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: and if they are tied in this Unite the Country,
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: the super PAC that did this polling points out that
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: Trump doing at this level with these voters means he'd
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: win the very close battleground states, is their sort of assumption.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: Not very much, but enough, because they were so close
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: last time. These people are not uniform in who they
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: are or what they think, and you're going to have
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: to do two things sort of somewhat simultaneously. And it's
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: going to be a little bit targeted depending on various
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: groups in here. Part of it is you're just going
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: to have simply strengthened Biden, right? Joe Biden is underperforming
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: across the board with a whole bunch of groups of voters,
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: people on issues, on character traits. And we're going to
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: have to remind people of not just like sort of
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: what he's accomplished, but who he is. And I think
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: particular strength, right? Because I think one of the things
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: that's happening is the world seems incredibly chaotic. Biden seems
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: old into some voters and I think unfairly so weak.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: And so you're going to have to demonstrate strength. The
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: other thing we have to do is remind people what
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: a fucking nut job Trump is and how dangerous he
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: is and how incompetent he can be and how chaotic
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: he can be because people are not paying attention to that.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: They have not seen Trump speak. These voters don't watch
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: Fox News. They're not consuming Breitbart. They're not listening to
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: Pod Save America. They're just not encountering, frankly, Biden or Trump.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: And so they're kind of hearing some stuff that things
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: don't seem great right now. Biden said they'd be great.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: And maybe he's too old. And Trump, they haven't really
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: thought about at all. They probably know he's involved in
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: some crimes. Maybe they don't care about that that much.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: And they think back to the fact that the economy
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: seemed pretty damn good before the pandemic started and doesn't
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: feel as good now. And so I think part of
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: this is just for a lot of these voters, we're
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: just going to have to stick Trump's craziness in their
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: face for the next year and a half. Make them
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: focus on the dangers of Trump and put that in
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: contrast and do a little bit to strengthen Biden to
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: make him a better vehicle for their concern about Trump.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: And this is why the liberal laments that you hear
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: a lot online, that we heard a lot in 2016,
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: and I think it was more warranted in 2016, of like,
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: do not platform Trump, stop platforming Trump. No, no, do
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: platform Trump. We need more people in this country to
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: be reminded of what he's like, because when they get
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: that reminder, they do not like him. They vote again. Again,
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: this is the MAGA candidates in the midterms that lost.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: It was because the race was engaged in these states
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: and those voters were shown a lot of ads and
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: a lot of election denying MAGA extremism shit and they
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: voted the other way.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: Trump campaigned in those states, was on their local news.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: Right now, most Americans are not seeing Donald Trump. Many
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: of them do not, but you hear this in focus
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: groups all the time. A lot of people, people who
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: voted for Biden in 20 and maybe are disenchanted with
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: the way things are going right now, they think Trump's
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: going to be in prison, not on the ballot.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: And some of them think Biden's not going to run.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: Right. There's a lot of people. Yeah. A lot of
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: people would be very surprised to learn that the most
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: likely matchup is Biden and Trump.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: And it's like a 95% likelihood.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: I know. And a lot of those people, it's not
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: even like a lot of those people think that both
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: of them are going to be the nominee. A lot
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: of people think that neither of them are going to
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: be the nominee of the party. I found this section
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: pretty interesting in the memo about these double haters. It says,
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: despite being more aligned with Republican values, they express fear
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: about Trump and about the future of American democracy. Their
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: hesitancy toward Trump is rooted in various aspects, such as
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: his role in leading a coup, multiple indictments, and praise
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: for the Chinese dictator. So one thing that worries me
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: about this group of people is the existence of no labels,
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: because it feels like these are exactly the kind of
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: voters who would support a no labels candidate. They are
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: more Republican. They are more male. They are maybe a
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: little more centrist. They don't like Trump because he's tried
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: to commit the coup. They don't maybe want a convicted felon,
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: but they are Republican. They have Republican viewpoints. And so
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: if you give them a Larry Hogan, a John Huntsman
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: to land on, you could see them choosing that candidate,
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: which really worries me.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, there was some no-labels polling that leaked out
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: via Politico Playbook this week, which no-labels tested Biden-Trump head-to-head,
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: Biden-Trump head-to-head with a no-labels candidate with a Democrat, like
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: a Joe Manchin or a Kyrsten Sinema, a generic Democrat,
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: but think in your head, like a Manchin or a
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: Sinema type of ticket, and a no-labels candidacy with a
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: Republican type of ticket. And the Republican one significantly outperformed
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: the Democratic one. It was much more devastating to Biden's chances.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: And this is obvious because these are many cases, Republicans
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: who don't like Trump. Many of them bit the bullet
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: and voted for Biden in 2020 and are trying to
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: figure out what to do this time. And they haven't
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: gone all the way back to Trump, but they're not
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: sticking with Biden as of yet either.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And again, like you said, there's different groups of
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: double haters, right? And this sample just, you know, in
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: the statistics that you read is just like, you know,
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: the majority of them are this or they tend to
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: be disproportionately male Republicans. But there's probably also a group
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: that we've talked about of less college educated voters who
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: are more in tune with the economy and who are
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: struggling and are worried about costs more. There's probably some
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: progressive voters and younger voters who don't like Biden and
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: Trump because they think neither are progressive enough. Right. And
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: they're thinking about a Cornel West or whatever else or
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: maybe not voting at all. So there are different groups
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: of these. But I think the group that is tends
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: to be more Republican, more male and cares more about uh,
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: democracy and Trump's indictments. These are more of the centrist
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: Republicans that I think this is like the, you know,
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: who the, like the Lincoln project is going after and
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: like the Republican and Sarah Longwell's were more, more effectively
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: Republican accountability project and the bulwark or like, that's, I
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: think that's those voters. And, um, I, I, you know, I,
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: I really worry about that.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, it is like, it's like, as you said,
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: there's when Donald Trump and Joe Biden both have approval
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: ratings that are around, 40% and are bleeding a significant
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: part of their own party, and Biden's actually bleeding more
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: of his own party, you're going to end up with
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: a wide swath of voters who fit that category. You're
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: going to need specific strategies for the different elements of it.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: Well, in case any of you were losing sleep over
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden's reelection, don't worry. Dean Phillips is here to
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: save the day.
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: The Mike Johnson of Democrats. I have that.
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: I said, you might be wondering who's Dean Phillips. I said,
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: isn't he the guy they just elected speaker? No, that's
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: Mike Johnson. Dean Phillips is the Mike Johnson of running
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: against Joe Biden in the Democratic primary. He's a little-known
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: congressman looking for a big promotion. Mike Johnson got his.
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: Now Dean Phillips is looking for his. The 54-year-old three-term
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: Minnesota Democrat will be announcing his presidential campaign in New
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: Hampshire on Friday. That is the last day to get
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: on the ballot in that state. There was already a
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: Dean Phillips for president bus spotted in Ohio this week.
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: What do you think, Dan? How scared should Joe Biden
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: be of Dean Phillips?
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: That's a hard question to answer, John. There is clearly,
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: in all the polling, a significant number of Democrats who
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: would be very open to an alternative to Joe Biden.
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: And I think even with that case, if any significant
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: Democrat like Gretchen Whitmer or Josh Shapiro or Raphael Warnock
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: or Gavin Newsom were to run, they would be a
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: significant underdog to the incumbent Democratic president of the United States.
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: Dean Phillips... is the longest of long shots for several reasons.
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: No one knows who he is, but also he is
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: a centrist, multimillionaire congressman who doesn't seem to me, at
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: least at this point, and we'll see what he says
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: on the campaign trail, but does not seem to me
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: to be a likely vessel for whatever anti-Biden sentiment sits
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: out there in the party. Whether they think it's not
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: clear he's more electable than Biden, he's not an obvious
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: next generational candidate, call for the next generation, If you're
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: dissatisfied with Biden because he's not left enough or not
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: progressive enough, Dean Phillips is not your guy. It just
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: is not clear what itch Dean Phillips scratches, which may
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: be sort of the story of his life, I guess.
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: What does that mean?
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: I don't know. No, I, what I mean, he's also getting, uh,
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: he has a primary challenge now, uh, partly because he's,
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: he's done this in the, in his house race. So look, it's,
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: it's also, he faces a few obstacles here. He's a few, uh,
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: just a few, a few other obstacles. Sorry. Um, he's,
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: he's already too late for Nevada, uh, to qualify in
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: Nevada that, that deadline has passed. So he's not getting
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: any delegates out of that. He's not getting any delegates
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: out of New Hampshire because, uh, there aren't any delegates.
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: There are no delegates in New Hampshire because of the
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: DNC rules, because South Carolina is going first and New
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: Hampshire is still saying that they want to go first.
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: So they're going to strip them of the delegates. So
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: Biden is not competing in New Hampshire. Now, of course,
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: Dean Phillips could win New Hampshire, partly because Biden's not
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: competing in there. I think they're just trying to do
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: a write in campaign for Biden there.
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: Has he decided not to be on the ballot? I
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: meant to ask this before we started recording, but.
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: Has Joe Biden decided not to be on the ballot?
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: I believe so. Yes. Yeah. because I think that they
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: said that that's the, I think the campaign said, no,
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: that we're not going to be on the ballot because
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: that's the rules. And we would like to compete in
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: New Hampshire, but the Democratic Party rules have said that,
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: you know, they've made a decision that South Carolinas go
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: first and that we can't compete in New Hampshire. So
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: Dean Phillips is sort of just going around that and probably,
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: I guess, is going to try to embarrass Joe Biden
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: in New Hampshire.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: But how? By beating Marianne Williamson?
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: I guess.
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: The only other who assumes on the ballot in New Hampshire?
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But like you said, I know you're like, Dean
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: Phillips is probably someone who, if they knew him, maybe
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: those double hater voters we were just talking about would like.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: But again, this is a Democratic primary. And you're right,
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: like a multimillionaire moderate unknown in a Democratic primary is
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: not maybe the best fit right now for the party.
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: I just think while a lot of Democratic voters will
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: tell pollsters that they would like another option. than Biden.
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: It is just worth noting, we should remind ourselves that
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: for most of this year, Joe Biden's approval rating among
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: Democrats has been exactly the same or a point or
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: two higher than Donald Trump's approval rating among Republicans. And
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump is walking away with that primary. So this
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: idea that Biden is somehow extremely vulnerable to anyone, let
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: alone Dean Phillips, has not yet borne out the polling.
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: It's really hard to beat someone who has a 77, 78,
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: 79% approval rating among the people who are going to
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: decide the election.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: How would you handle the Dean Phillips candidacy if you
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: were on the Biden campaign? I think the White House
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: was asked, they put out a statement that mentioning how
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: he's almost completely supportive of Biden, almost because he's obviously
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: running against him, but he has voted with Biden nearly
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: 100% of the time. So I think they're trying to say, Well,
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: he has supported the president up until now. He has
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: all the president's positions, has supported all the president, and
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: we don't know why he's running, basically, seems to be
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: the message. What do you think about that?
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: That's fine. Sure. I think a written statement delivered in
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: response to reporter queries is not like a sign of
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: some huge strategic calculation on their part. My guess is
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: the plan is to largely ignore him. We should say this.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: Dean Phillips has every right to run. We said this
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: throughout the year, as everyone was saying. Of course. You know,
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: the DNC is rigging the primary. Why is anyone running?
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: Our view always was if someone wants to run, that's
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: their they have the they have the opportunity to do it.
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: They think they can make a case to win. They
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: should do it. Dean Phillips has chosen that path. We
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: think he's a long shot, but if he wants to
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: do it, he should do it. And there shouldn't be
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: any effort to prevent him from making his case to voters.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: So I think the White House is doing the right thing.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: Well, so speaking of the DNC, they've already formally endorsed
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: Biden and announced that they won't be holding any primary debates.
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: That's when it was just Biden, Marianne Williamson, and RFK Jr.,
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: who's now running as an independent. Do you think the
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: DNC can get away with not holding any debates now
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: that Dean Phillips is entering the race?
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: I assume they're not going to hold any debates, and
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: I assume they're going to get away with it. I'm
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: not sure. What is the public pressure from... The reason
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: why it wasn't an issue with Marianne Williamson.
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: All the Deaniacs. The Deaniacs.
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Obviously, if for some reason our assessment is incorrect,
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: which is probably likely at this point given our recent
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: track record, and there's a massive political movement around Dean Phillips,
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: much as there was around Howard Dean, to cite your
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: very dated reference, then that could change. But as of
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: right now, the DNC is intertwined directly in the Biden campaign.
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: They've been operating for a year as if there would
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: be no true primary Dean Phillips is a legitimate person.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: He is a Democratic member of Congress who was in
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: the Democratic leadership until he resigned that position to consider
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: this presidential race. And so he is not the same
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: thing as Marianne Williamson or someone like RFK Jr. who
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: was running for the Democratic nomination under the encouragement and
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: advice of people like Steve Bannon. But I don't see
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: that that is going to be enough to force the
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: DNC to change their approach. If he starts to get
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: real support, That could change, but as of right now,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: I think we're all heading in the same direction, which
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: is prepping for a Biden-Trump general election.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: Although I wonder if he starts to get real support
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: or he starts to get fake support. And by that,
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: I mean people are going to look at this as
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: an opportunity to cause trouble. And the Steve Bannons, the
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: people on the right, the Elon Musk, the tech bros,
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: like lefty progressives, Cornell West, you know, like you can
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: see a number of people being like, why is the
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: DNC rigging the primary? Now, this is a congressman from Minnesota,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: even if they don't actually like Dean Phillips, the congressman
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: from Minnesota and Joe Biden's refusing to debate him. Why
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: can't Joe Biden debate him? And that must mean that
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden's afraid of debating Donald Trump. And why is
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: he afraid to debate? So I could see a little,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: I could see people causing trouble over there.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure. This is going to be, and
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: this is the ultimate, the question that Dean Phillips is
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: going to have to ask himself is given the long
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: odds of success, how much of what he says and
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: does can end up being weaponized against Joe Biden to
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: affect that race on the margins? Like I said, he
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: has a right to do it. He should run the
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: race he wants to run. He should give it a shot.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: He should follow all the rules about getting on the
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: ballot and then making his case. But the people who
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: are applauding Dean Phillips' entry in this race are going
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: to be the people who want to defeat Joe Biden
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: in November, who work for Republicans or are on Fox News,
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: et cetera.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: So you don't think we will see Joe Biden, Dean Phillips,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: Marianne Williamson debate?
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: Are we hosting one?
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: No, I don't.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: What? Yeah. Our door is always open.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, we are not.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: Come on.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: I would be surprised to see that, John. That's what
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: I would say. I'm not making any predictions, but I
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: would be surprised.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: I think it's a good trial run for Joe Biden.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: We don't have first-term presidents, the first debate. It's always
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: pretty tricky. We lived through that with Barack Obama. Didn't
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: do too well against our friend Mitt Romney in that
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: first debate. Maybe this would be good practice for Joe
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: Biden to take on Dean Phillips and Marianne Williamson. Your friend.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: My friend, Marianne Williamson.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: Your friend, Mitt Romney. Your friend, Mitt Romney.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: Oh, my friend, Mitt Romney. I thought you meant my friend,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: Marianne Williamson, who I have interviewed here.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: Yes, you have.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: Keep in mind, I have interviewed Marianne Williamson.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: So Dean Phillips, not a problem, but we are sponsoring
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: a primary debate. Just get that all squared away. Um,
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: Mike Johnson. Also, if you want to come on, great. We,
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: you know, we're opening up, uh, pod saving Mary to
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: all kinds of people. Everyone have a great weekend. That's
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: our show for today. What do we got to tell everyone?
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: We're going to be in, where are we going? We're
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: going to be in Louisville Saturday night. We are for
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: a show. Uh, you can still get tickets to that show.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: If you're going to be in Louisville, uh, just go to, uh, cricket.com,
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: find some tickets there. We're going to be in Cleveland
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: Sunday night. Uh, and you're going to hear both of
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: those pods next week. So, uh, a lot of podcasting and, uh,
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: And Dan, I guess I'll see you in Louisville or Indianapolis.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: Is that where we're flying?
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: I'm going straight to Louisville.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: Oh, good for you.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: Well, it's not straight. There's several legs to that flight,
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: but I believe it might eventually land on a plane
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: in Louisville.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: This is one of the more challenging trips. Just wait
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: till our five and a half hour drive from Louisville
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: to Cleveland. That's going to be fun.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: I cannot wait for the discussion over where we're going
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: to stop for lunch. That's going to be, we've got
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: to start that when we get in the car.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I love it's already got one in mind.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: I'm sure. All right, everyone have a great weekend and
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: we'll talk to you soon.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 6: Bye.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: Bye everyone.
• 1:03:48
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• 1:03:51
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